Third comment here at the 8:58 point: You are discussing the bottom beam of the repetition being "bowed" instead of "straight". You are correct that it is "inconvenient" for installing them on many action rails. However, some of the reasons you surmised are not quite accurate. I believe that the first priority of that design was to maximize strength. A flat beam will "bend" under heavy load, whereas an arched beam will not. Seeing that the forces comes from below the beam via the heel and capstan, it makes sense to "arch" the beam agains that force. This makes the repetition stronger and more stable under heavy playing. And as you mentioned earlier, WNG tried to reduce the overall mass as much as possible without sacrificing the maximum strength required. But, it does make for more challenges to adapt the repetition rails to accommodate the WNG repetitions. If you have a Steinway, no modifications are needed, as they fit perfectly on the tubular rails of the Steinway system (I believe the Boston and Essex brands made by Steinway also use this system, but I could be mistaken). I'm not aware of any other brands that permit this, so you are left with modifying the rails one way or another. If you have a jointer/planer machine that can joint at any angle, that is the best method to make the taper to accept the WNG repetitions. The next best option is the table saw, but only if you don't have a jointer. This can be more "dangerous" as it is very hard to make a perfect cut, and you can potentially ruin the rail. Know your abilities, and work within them. Then you need some small tapered pieces of wood to match the angle you tapered the rail to provide a level surface for the screws that attach the rail to the action brackets. Once that is all done, the rest is business as usual. If you have an aluminum "U" channel, then it is even easier to modify, as you can cut along the length of the channel on a table saw with an appropriate blade for aluminum, and you're done. Usually only about 1/4" is all that is needed to be removed to make it work. I've had to make this modification on the 1924 Heintzman concert grand I am rebuilding with the WNG parts. I encountered no problems that prevented me from doing this overhaul. However, I should mention that this original action was also a WNG action, and the metal action brackets had "flanges" to screw the rail in place that interfered with the first and last repetition of each section. Using my milling machine, I was able to trim the flanges as needed to make the required clearances for the WNG repetitions. So I agree that a conversion is not entirely "user friendly" for inexperienced technicians, but it is not impossible to do, and WNG are very good at customer service, and will do what they can to help and guide a technician with their work.
Second comment here: at the 8:00 point you are referring to the butterfly repetition spring in the WNG vs the one in the wooden repetition. WNG apparently considered incorporating the adjustment screw to adjust the tension like the wooden example you have, but chose not to in order not to add further rotational mass to the repetition. Many other repetitions use the basic spring adjustment tool, so that is not new in the trade, and with some practice it can be regulated quite quickly and accurately enough, and WNG wisely chose this path. In the overall scheme of things, this adjustment is relatively "minor" in comparison to other more influential issues, such as a smooth hammer strike weight from bass to treble. You would be surprised at how many regulating and voicing issues can be minimized or resolved with a smooth transition of strike weight across the keyboard, as the hammers represents up to 80% of total key inertia. Immediately after that is the friction in the hammer flanges must be as free and as even as possible without being "loose". That alone contributes the most to uneven touch, and poor balancing results when leading the keys to balance the action. If you don't take care of the weight and friction from the hammers first, then all the other procedures following is just compensating for the errors in strike weight and friction irregularities. So while the spring tension screw is "convenient", it does little to really affect the overall feel of the action. This is where the WNG bushings as you were discussing earlier really outshines the wooden actions with traditional methods of manufacture. Furthermore, the WNG repetitions are available with "helper springs" that are adjustable. Some actions use them and others don't. Personally I believe they SHOULD be used all the time, but only with a light spring tension. It should be just enough to make the repetition "float" in a neutral manner, so that the keys neither feel them to lift (requiring more key leads to compensate) nor have such high tension that the hammers have to work against them to return the keys to rest position. Repetitions are usually around 19 grams at the heel, and with an average 0.5 key ratio, that contributes about 9-10 grams of weight that the keys must lift. With a light tension of the helper springs, that weight can be removed from the front end of the keys where the leads are, which further reduces inertia. The keys feel much more responsive in such a manner, and repeats very quickly. Fatigue in the hands are greatly reduced, which some pianists (children and women in particular) will really appreciate when playing very taxing pieces of music.
You mentioned around the 3:30 point in the video about the friction of the pinning of the flanges, and how you would like to progress from the bass to the treble by reducing flange friction if possible. This is a good practice, as it can affect the results somewhat if you use the David Stanwood "Precision Touch Design" (PTD) protocols. (Very highly recommended for the absolute best results) You could purchase the expensive device from WNG to measure the gram resistance of the flanges, but I found that the usual multi-disc adjustable brass weight set have a hole in the discs that make a snug fit on the ends of the carbon fibre shanks. Starting with the 1 gram disc, I sort out the shanks with the least friction with a "swing test". I count the number of "swings" (from one side to the other until it stops in centre), and sort accordingly. If the 1 gram doesn't swing due to more friction, then I use the 2 gram and so forth. Once the shanks are sorted from the heaviest to lightest friction (for bass to treble) I numbered them using a label maker from 1-88 accordingly. This ensures that the shank friction is as smoothly progressive as possible throughout the keyboard. It's not an earth shattering difference if you don't, but it's just another step that "checks the boxes" to reduce any variables as much as possible. I did that for my 1915 Steinway D, and that action is incredible. I'm in the process of rebuilding a 1924 Heintzman concert grand, and will repeat the protocols to obtain similar results. Don't underestimate the value of the Stanwood PTD protocols, as it dramatically improves ANY action, wood or composite, with the best results obtained with the WNG parts. Not everyone has the budget for a whole new action (which should only be WNG composites), but the PTD should still be the minimum work done to improve an action. From my experience, I've seen "factory jobs" from reputable brands absolutely make a mess of balancing actions so that they don't play to their potential, and after applying the PTD protocols those same actions play incredibly smooth and even. BTW, all the actions that needed an overhaul to make them play better were ALWAYS a wooden action with cloth bushings. I'm not knocking wooden actions outright, as they have served as best they could for centuries as that is the only material available. But with today's technologies and materials as supplied by WNG, it is inexcusable to replace a wooden action with another wooden action. Friction issues, and warpage, and regulation stability issues with wooden actions are nearly nonexistent with the WNG composite actions. If one thinks that the composite action parts are more expensive than wooden action parts, they are mistaken, as the prices are nearly the same, but the long term benefits of the WNG makes them far more cost effective.
You’ve given lots of details for those interested to learn from. And you’ve illustrated how a dedicated tech can bring about results from a piano that manufacturers can’t (afford to) provide even when bought new. Your clients are extremely lucky!
@@insidepianos I'm happy to share my experiences in response to you sharing yours in your excellent videos. We are able to expand our knowledge in the piano trade like never before with the media we can all benefit from. This type of info exchange was nearly unheard of even 20 years ago, and I would have greatly benefited from the knowledge I have now 25-30 years ago. I would say that the vast majority of piano manufacturers did not have the information we have available today, and like many other fields of industry, there is a lot of "this is the way we do things so just do your job", and as a result, we get products from companies stuck in a rut and not keeping up with new ideas and technologies. The piano industry in many ways has "stagnated" and has not moved forward to adapt to things like PTD and WNG actions. But thanks to individuals like you and me, that is slowly changing, because we are the "forward thinkers", and not necessarily the "bean counters" that often prevents progress. To adapt these technologies would not be "cost prohibitive" as we pay far too much for new pianos anyways, and we as customers expect more if we pay more. I would be delighted to correspond with you if you wish to contact me at glencuthbertson@hotmail.com as I have spreadsheets and graphs that you may find very informative, useful, and eye opening. I commend you for the excellent work you are doing already, including making these TH-cam videos for the benefit of us all. Hope to hear from you.
Thank you for this video. Thoughts on durability of carbon fiber action vs traditional wooden action? Is cost ownership lower with carbon action fiber?
There is a coupe problems with the parts, the pinning is not good, you always end up repining most of them because of clicking if loose, the larger problem is tonal range. With wng there is no whip in hammershanks. When you voice hammers to create power and sustain and a nice tonal range from soft loud playing, there is no range as without the whip of timber hammershanks. If anyone has ever wondered this is why kawai still use timber shanks with composite parts.
Hi Jack, I’m starting work on the follow up video and I have pics/footage taking along the way. But as a preview I’m mostly quite happy with the action. It really gets out of the way and allows for music making. The wood removal went really smoothly but was quite nerve racking as I was getting ready to send the mounting rail through my table saw. I was glad it came out perfect on the first run. To be continued...
I have had an absolute nightmare with this action. This is on a concert grand. Noise caused by the wippen, a complete imbalance with the shank and hammers, requiring huge amounts of lead. The shanks are heavy and the hammers are very light but hard so crappy sound. This has created bouncing of keys and a terrible inertia problem. Playing with speed is exhausting and near impossible. They may be charging the same but these parts are easy to manufacture compared to the finer ones made with wood.
David Sukonick Thanks for weighing in, no pun intended. I have had my trials with these parts (that I hope to detail in a follow up to this initial video). But you clearly have had a nightmare. In the end, I’m VERY impressed and happy with the action-it’s one of the best I’ve ever experienced-but it took a while and some extra work I know I could have avoided with wooden parts. In terms of wippen noise, the only thing I encountered was the shank coming into contact w the repetition lever height adjust screw. I fixed that by holding the pad w some pliers and driving the screw in deeper. I’m wondering if that’s what you’re dealing with. I think people have a range of experience w these WNG parts that depends somewhat on the type of piano you’re dealing with. Sorry to hear you were at the far end of that spectrum. Very frustrating, I know.
@@insidepianos Thank you for your reply. My issues were on a new CC-94. It came with an incredibly heavy action and very annoying bright sound. I had a nationally renown technician do some work on it and every time he touched it, it became worse. After several attempts he threw up his hands and said "I'm stumped, I give up." He is on the list of technicians trained to work this action. He lowered the key weight from 60 down to 40 but this made the piano infinitely more difficult to play. The inertia pressure when playing with speed is off the chart. The keys have so much lead in them on both sides that it is crazy. With the triple bouncing of the keys they would be still moving after playing an entire scale. I have a Shigeru but it is a hybrid with the hammers and shanks made out of wood. I think this was more cost savings disguised as innovation. Some parts like the jack are much easier to replicate with plastic than to make quality ones with wood. A renown rebuilder, after much inspection and deliberation, suggested that it would be best to replace with a completely wood Renner action.
@@shvartze Yikes that sounds like a problem. There are a few that it could be. As far as feel, that sounds to me like an action geometry problem. This can be fixed, but it requires a technician schooled in action geometry. Something that many never touch. The parts do cost about the same and actually require a bit more work on some fronts to get it to work right. The parts are actually lighter than wooden parts which should not cause more weight. Of course most of the weight is how everything is put together and designed. If a piano had a problem with geometry before, putting on new parts with the same geometry will result in the same problem. Alternatively if the action was ordered wrong with the nuckel or heels in the wrong place or the wrong jack angle you are also going to have changed action geometry and cause issues. As far as noise usually its best to check how hard the nuckels are and check the pinning. When the pinning on the composite actions are too low they may click. And there was a period a few years back where the nuckels were too hard causing clicking. But if you are having weight issues then something was not done correctly and the factory should have hopefully helped you fix the problem; especially if it was brand new. As far as manufacturing costs its roughly the same. The big cost factor is actually the hard bushing and the shanks being made of carbon fiber along with labor to ensure the parts are in good shape. I mean the tolerances with the hard bushing are to the point where needle bearings are used and you need a crazy accurate drilling mechanism. Meaning crazy high end chucks and crazy precise bits. Essentially wooden and composite parts have costs in different places.
@@zackeryhardy9504 I had the problem solved and the piano is incredible now. It is super powerful and as easy to play on the fingers as a spinet. It may be one of the most unusual pianos in the world now. How? I had the entire action replaced. The brilliant Gennady Korolev saved this piano. I have videos of the entire process and what it looked like to start. No one could have fixed this action! There was no possible way to remove the horrible inertia issue. Each key had eight leads in it. It is almost impossible to believe but I have the proof. The first 'renowned' (yes, you would know him) technician that was also authorized as an expert on the WNG composite action failed miserably. He attempted to correct this nightmare by removing a single weight and moving all of the capstans. Are you kidding me? On a new concert grand? The hammers were not even glued correctly. On top of that the shaft is heavy. Yes it is carbon fiber but there is a shaft of steel inside of it so what is the point? Mason Hamlin refused to address this nightmare or even suggest a person to deal with it. I was willing to pay any expert (and I did unfortunately). I have read and heard that they have now changed the geometry of their concert grand. Why? For volume? That would be absurd since it has probably has the greatest sound production if not very close. For clarity? The clarity of a Mason Hamlin is legendary and unlike many large pianos that only project to the side give the performer great feedback. They had to rework the piano because it sucks to play and everyone I talked to says they get blown off if they list an issue!
@@shvartze Wow. Yea that sounds horrible. 8 leads is unaccrptable. I haven't dealt with the cc's much, but certainly not the case with the vx. I know the design that was being used before the burgetts bought it had some issues. But I haven't seen enough of them to really comment. Perhapse theu were still using the old design. But I cannot say for sure. Definately seems like a Geometry problem and likely one that couldn't be fixed without a full rebuild. Glad to hear you got it fixed.
I saw that video recently too. It makes me want to check my sample box and my extras from that project to see if the spring is stable or not. I’ll try to report back. I didn’t have any issues with clicking or malfunctioning of any type on the Baldwin. WNG composite parts have not been around for a super long time. And I know the current version is different in several ways than the initial release. I would not be surprised to learn that they took care of this spring issue. Good on Chris Chernobieff for showing a fix for when they have shifting springs.
Interesting. For the current Kawai action they have the carbon fiber composite action parts except for the hammer shank which is made of wood, also they use the traditional cloth bushings. I’m told the thought is that wood has particular acoustical properties that they wanted since it is in close vicinity to the vibrating strings. In regards to the bushings was to avoid the Steinway problem. What are your thoughts?
Hey Ted, thanks for drawing my attn to Kawai's use of composite materials. I enjoyed poking around their current literature. For the traditionally wooden parts of the repetition (whippen) it's really hard to argue with the merits of carbon fiber, so kudos to them! I re-read WNG's website in which lacks mention of the acoustic properties of the hammer shank, eg. reassurance that their parts mimic the acoustics of wood. Though I've not worked w a Teflon-era Steinway action, I'm told there was a percussive element to the sound not found with cloth bushings. In other words, the bushing may be more of a tonal concern than the shank given the shock absorption of a cloth bushing. So, Kawai might be doing the right thing--lightweight, super-responsive whippen paired w acoustically ideally-acoustic shank (whether that's thanks to the wood or the bushing or both). It's interesting to note that WNG launched their line (in the early aughts) with *cloth* bushings. They elected to upgrade(?) their parts with hard bushings later with their goal presumably remaining to produce the world's most advanced, best performing, and long-lasting piano parts. I wonder if Kawai along with WNG in the early days were not trying to avoid the *problem* of Steinway Teflon but rather the *problematic PR* of Steinway Teflon. In other words, these "hard bushings" appear to be trouble free when housed within composite material but pianists and technicians tend to form a cross with their hands and back slowly away when hearing mention of such things. I'm sure this is why WNG describes their bushing ("hard") and doesn't name the material. I'm leaning towards the conclusion that the ideal whippen is a composite one with "hard" bushings and that WNG wouldn't have braved the potential associations w Steinway's infamous era if they didn't present some serious benefits. This is what I'm hoping as regards hammer shanks: I'm hoping that the tonal benefit of having properly and consistently-rigid composite shanks outweighs any departure from the ideal caused by foregoing wood and cloth. Flexing of wooden shanks causes two problems: loss of power as well as the hammer tip straying from the best strike point during hard blows. Additionally, wooden shanks can warp and lose alignment to the strings. Include also the inconsistency from note to note caused by variation in rigidity. The maintenance problems with wood and cloth are no fun either. I've had to repin my shanks so many times to try to keep the touch weight consistent and to avoid double striking. WNG shanks are reported to nearly eliminate that issue. And that's good for the consumer too! I've mounted the whippens and shanks and hope to hang the hammers starting tomorrow. I can't wait to get a feel for these parts myself and go beyond the theoretical. You can be sure I'll produce a video when this journey is done!
So the issue with the steinway hard bushing was the difference in material between the wood and the bushing. So what would happen is that the wood would change shape and the bushing wouldn't. A test has been done with the hard bushings when basicly put on a player system set to run the parts at 4 blows per second and it was run for about 8 months. Most other parts were falling appart and the hammers were mashed flat. however with the WNG parts the hammers have groves that went all the way down to the core of the hammer. And the tension on the WNG parts were way too low. But after a repining they were good to go again. Also There is no benefit to flex in the hammer shank. In fact this often leads to the hammer going off of the strike line. But its a common myth in the piano world so they make some of the shanks to be more flexible to accurately represent wood shanks. The big thing is consistency though. Wood just isn't consistent due to its nature as a material. My mentor talked to me about a story about a technician who was having a voicing problem with a petrov. He replaced the shanks with the composite ones and the voicing problems went away. What was happening was the parts used in that piano were not consistent. I suspect they used cheaper hammer shanks, but I cannot say for sure. Even tests with renner parts which are the best in terms of consistency as far as good goes have a lot of variance. Usually not to the extent that it causes voicing problems like the petrov As far as pinning goes they are supposed to provide a specific gram resistance. The nature of felt and hard bushings are different so a gram gage is needed for this to work and due to the material of the bushing you actually need a bit more resistance than you would with a felt bushing. Actually when the resistance is too low you will get some clicks. you can get a repining kit if need be with instructions for what the resistances are, but you cannot use regular pins. They are actually made from needle bearings and if you find a WNG action with noise its likely a pin that is a bit too loose. This will happen over time as with any action. As far as the design of the wippen shape its designed to work on most pianos and was designed that way for strength and weight. And weight does make a difference. Obviously there are oddball pianos out there where something may be outside of the norm. But not much that can be done about that. edit: typo.
Extremely well done. I look forward to learning more.
Thank you, Cheryl. I have this feeling that pianos are intrinsically interesting, but I know I'm biased.
Third comment here at the 8:58 point: You are discussing the bottom beam of the repetition being "bowed" instead of "straight". You are correct that it is "inconvenient" for installing them on many action rails. However, some of the reasons you surmised are not quite accurate.
I believe that the first priority of that design was to maximize strength. A flat beam will "bend" under heavy load, whereas an arched beam will not. Seeing that the forces comes from below the beam via the heel and capstan, it makes sense to "arch" the beam agains that force. This makes the repetition stronger and more stable under heavy playing. And as you mentioned earlier, WNG tried to reduce the overall mass as much as possible without sacrificing the maximum strength required.
But, it does make for more challenges to adapt the repetition rails to accommodate the WNG repetitions. If you have a Steinway, no modifications are needed, as they fit perfectly on the tubular rails of the Steinway system (I believe the Boston and Essex brands made by Steinway also use this system, but I could be mistaken). I'm not aware of any other brands that permit this, so you are left with modifying the rails one way or another.
If you have a jointer/planer machine that can joint at any angle, that is the best method to make the taper to accept the WNG repetitions. The next best option is the table saw, but only if you don't have a jointer. This can be more "dangerous" as it is very hard to make a perfect cut, and you can potentially ruin the rail. Know your abilities, and work within them.
Then you need some small tapered pieces of wood to match the angle you tapered the rail to provide a level surface for the screws that attach the rail to the action brackets. Once that is all done, the rest is business as usual.
If you have an aluminum "U" channel, then it is even easier to modify, as you can cut along the length of the channel on a table saw with an appropriate blade for aluminum, and you're done. Usually only about 1/4" is all that is needed to be removed to make it work.
I've had to make this modification on the 1924 Heintzman concert grand I am rebuilding with the WNG parts. I encountered no problems that prevented me from doing this overhaul. However, I should mention that this original action was also a WNG action, and the metal action brackets had "flanges" to screw the rail in place that interfered with the first and last repetition of each section. Using my milling machine, I was able to trim the flanges as needed to make the required clearances for the WNG repetitions.
So I agree that a conversion is not entirely "user friendly" for inexperienced technicians, but it is not impossible to do, and WNG are very good at customer service, and will do what they can to help and guide a technician with their work.
Second comment here: at the 8:00 point you are referring to the butterfly repetition spring in the WNG vs the one in the wooden repetition. WNG apparently considered incorporating the adjustment screw to adjust the tension like the wooden example you have, but chose not to in order not to add further rotational mass to the repetition. Many other repetitions use the basic spring adjustment tool, so that is not new in the trade, and with some practice it can be regulated quite quickly and accurately enough, and WNG wisely chose this path.
In the overall scheme of things, this adjustment is relatively "minor" in comparison to other more influential issues, such as a smooth hammer strike weight from bass to treble. You would be surprised at how many regulating and voicing issues can be minimized or resolved with a smooth transition of strike weight across the keyboard, as the hammers represents up to 80% of total key inertia. Immediately after that is the friction in the hammer flanges must be as free and as even as possible without being "loose". That alone contributes the most to uneven touch, and poor balancing results when leading the keys to balance the action.
If you don't take care of the weight and friction from the hammers first, then all the other procedures following is just compensating for the errors in strike weight and friction irregularities.
So while the spring tension screw is "convenient", it does little to really affect the overall feel of the action. This is where the WNG bushings as you were discussing earlier really outshines the wooden actions with traditional methods of manufacture.
Furthermore, the WNG repetitions are available with "helper springs" that are adjustable. Some actions use them and others don't. Personally I believe they SHOULD be used all the time, but only with a light spring tension. It should be just enough to make the repetition "float" in a neutral manner, so that the keys neither feel them to lift (requiring more key leads to compensate) nor have such high tension that the hammers have to work against them to return the keys to rest position.
Repetitions are usually around 19 grams at the heel, and with an average 0.5 key ratio, that contributes about 9-10 grams of weight that the keys must lift. With a light tension of the helper springs, that weight can be removed from the front end of the keys where the leads are, which further reduces inertia. The keys feel much more responsive in such a manner, and repeats very quickly. Fatigue in the hands are greatly reduced, which some pianists (children and women in particular) will really appreciate when playing very taxing pieces of music.
Slick presentation- will look forward to hearing about how it feels
Thanks Daniel! I hope to have it playable in 2-3 weeks, then refined from there.
Good job Ben! I will recommend this to anyone doing repair of pianos. WOW!
Thank you, Linda, and thanks also for your subscription! My goal is to produce new content every two weeks.
You mentioned around the 3:30 point in the video about the friction of the pinning of the flanges, and how you would like to progress from the bass to the treble by reducing flange friction if possible. This is a good practice, as it can affect the results somewhat if you use the David Stanwood "Precision Touch Design" (PTD) protocols. (Very highly recommended for the absolute best results)
You could purchase the expensive device from WNG to measure the gram resistance of the flanges, but I found that the usual multi-disc adjustable brass weight set have a hole in the discs that make a snug fit on the ends of the carbon fibre shanks. Starting with the 1 gram disc, I sort out the shanks with the least friction with a "swing test". I count the number of "swings" (from one side to the other until it stops in centre), and sort accordingly. If the 1 gram doesn't swing due to more friction, then I use the 2 gram and so forth. Once the shanks are sorted from the heaviest to lightest friction (for bass to treble) I numbered them using a label maker from 1-88 accordingly.
This ensures that the shank friction is as smoothly progressive as possible throughout the keyboard. It's not an earth shattering difference if you don't, but it's just another step that "checks the boxes" to reduce any variables as much as possible. I did that for my 1915 Steinway D, and that action is incredible. I'm in the process of rebuilding a 1924 Heintzman concert grand, and will repeat the protocols to obtain similar results.
Don't underestimate the value of the Stanwood PTD protocols, as it dramatically improves ANY action, wood or composite, with the best results obtained with the WNG parts. Not everyone has the budget for a whole new action (which should only be WNG composites), but the PTD should still be the minimum work done to improve an action. From my experience, I've seen "factory jobs" from reputable brands absolutely make a mess of balancing actions so that they don't play to their potential, and after applying the PTD protocols those same actions play incredibly smooth and even.
BTW, all the actions that needed an overhaul to make them play better were ALWAYS a wooden action with cloth bushings. I'm not knocking wooden actions outright, as they have served as best they could for centuries as that is the only material available. But with today's technologies and materials as supplied by WNG, it is inexcusable to replace a wooden action with another wooden action. Friction issues, and warpage, and regulation stability issues with wooden actions are nearly nonexistent with the WNG composite actions.
If one thinks that the composite action parts are more expensive than wooden action parts, they are mistaken, as the prices are nearly the same, but the long term benefits of the WNG makes them far more cost effective.
You’ve given lots of details for those interested to learn from. And you’ve illustrated how a dedicated tech can bring about results from a piano that manufacturers can’t (afford to) provide even when bought new. Your clients are extremely lucky!
@@insidepianos I'm happy to share my experiences in response to you sharing yours in your excellent videos. We are able to expand our knowledge in the piano trade like never before with the media we can all benefit from. This type of info exchange was nearly unheard of even 20 years ago, and I would have greatly benefited from the knowledge I have now 25-30 years ago.
I would say that the vast majority of piano manufacturers did not have the information we have available today, and like many other fields of industry, there is a lot of "this is the way we do things so just do your job", and as a result, we get products from companies stuck in a rut and not keeping up with new ideas and technologies. The piano industry in many ways has "stagnated" and has not moved forward to adapt to things like PTD and WNG actions. But thanks to individuals like you and me, that is slowly changing, because we are the "forward thinkers", and not necessarily the "bean counters" that often prevents progress. To adapt these technologies would not be "cost prohibitive" as we pay far too much for new pianos anyways, and we as customers expect more if we pay more.
I would be delighted to correspond with you if you wish to contact me at glencuthbertson@hotmail.com as I have spreadsheets and graphs that you may find very informative, useful, and eye opening. I commend you for the excellent work you are doing already, including making these TH-cam videos for the benefit of us all. Hope to hear from you.
Thank you for this video. Thoughts on durability of carbon fiber action vs traditional wooden action? Is cost ownership lower with carbon action fiber?
There is a coupe problems with the parts, the pinning is not good, you always end up repining most of them because of clicking if loose, the larger problem is tonal range. With wng there is no whip in hammershanks. When you voice hammers to create power and sustain and a nice tonal range from soft loud playing, there is no range as without the whip of timber hammershanks. If anyone has ever wondered this is why kawai still use timber shanks with composite parts.
9 months later, are you still happy with the WNG action? How hard was the removal of the wood to accommodate the whippens?
Hi Jack, I’m starting work on the follow up video and I have pics/footage taking along the way. But as a preview I’m mostly quite happy with the action. It really gets out of the way and allows for music making. The wood removal went really smoothly but was quite nerve racking as I was getting ready to send the mounting rail through my table saw. I was glad it came out perfect on the first run. To be continued...
@@insidepianos I look forward to the follow up video!
It’s now all filmed. I just need to clear my schedule enough to do the editing. That’s been harder to do than I hoped.
I have had an absolute nightmare with this action. This is on a concert grand. Noise caused by the wippen, a complete imbalance with the shank and hammers, requiring huge amounts of lead. The shanks are heavy and the hammers are very light but hard so crappy sound. This has created bouncing of keys and a terrible inertia problem. Playing with speed is exhausting and near impossible. They may be charging the same but these parts are easy to manufacture compared to the finer ones made with wood.
David Sukonick Thanks for weighing in, no pun intended. I have had my trials with these parts (that I hope to detail in a follow up to this initial video). But you clearly have had a nightmare. In the end, I’m VERY impressed and happy with the action-it’s one of the best I’ve ever experienced-but it took a while and some extra work I know I could have avoided with wooden parts.
In terms of wippen noise, the only thing I encountered was the shank coming into contact w the repetition lever height adjust screw. I fixed that by holding the pad w some pliers and driving the screw in deeper. I’m wondering if that’s what you’re dealing with.
I think people have a range of experience w these WNG parts that depends somewhat on the type of piano you’re dealing with. Sorry to hear you were at the far end of that spectrum. Very frustrating, I know.
@@insidepianos Thank you for your reply. My issues were on a new CC-94. It came with an incredibly heavy action and very annoying bright sound. I had a nationally renown technician do some work on it and every time he touched it, it became worse. After several attempts he threw up his hands and said "I'm stumped, I give up." He is on the list of technicians trained to work this action. He lowered the key weight from 60 down to 40 but this made the piano infinitely more difficult to play. The inertia pressure when playing with speed is off the chart. The keys have so much lead in them on both sides that it is crazy. With the triple bouncing of the keys they would be still moving after playing an entire scale. I have a Shigeru but it is a hybrid with the hammers and shanks made out of wood. I think this was more cost savings disguised as innovation. Some parts like the jack are much easier to replicate with plastic than to make quality ones with wood. A renown rebuilder, after much inspection and deliberation, suggested that it would be best to replace with a completely wood Renner action.
@@shvartze Yikes that sounds like a problem. There are a few that it could be. As far as feel, that sounds to me like an action geometry problem. This can be fixed, but it requires a technician schooled in action geometry. Something that many never touch. The parts do cost about the same and actually require a bit more work on some fronts to get it to work right. The parts are actually lighter than wooden parts which should not cause more weight. Of course most of the weight is how everything is put together and designed. If a piano had a problem with geometry before, putting on new parts with the same geometry will result in the same problem.
Alternatively if the action was ordered wrong with the nuckel or heels in the wrong place or the wrong jack angle you are also going to have changed action geometry and cause issues. As far as noise usually its best to check how hard the nuckels are and check the pinning. When the pinning on the composite actions are too low they may click. And there was a period a few years back where the nuckels were too hard causing clicking. But if you are having weight issues then something was not done correctly and the factory should have hopefully helped you fix the problem; especially if it was brand new.
As far as manufacturing costs its roughly the same. The big cost factor is actually the hard bushing and the shanks being made of carbon fiber along with labor to ensure the parts are in good shape. I mean the tolerances with the hard bushing are to the point where needle bearings are used and you need a crazy accurate drilling mechanism. Meaning crazy high end chucks and crazy precise bits. Essentially wooden and composite parts have costs in different places.
@@zackeryhardy9504 I had the problem solved and the piano is incredible now. It is super powerful and as easy to play on the fingers as a spinet. It may be one of the most unusual pianos in the world now. How? I had the entire action replaced. The brilliant Gennady Korolev saved this piano. I have videos of the entire process and what it looked like to start. No one could have fixed this action! There was no possible way to remove the horrible inertia issue. Each key had eight leads in it. It is almost impossible to believe but I have the proof. The first 'renowned' (yes, you would know him) technician that was also authorized as an expert on the WNG composite action failed miserably. He attempted to correct this nightmare by removing a single weight and moving all of the capstans. Are you kidding me? On a new concert grand? The hammers were not even glued correctly. On top of that the shaft is heavy. Yes it is carbon fiber but there is a shaft of steel inside of it so what is the point? Mason Hamlin refused to address this nightmare or even suggest a person to deal with it. I was willing to pay any expert (and I did unfortunately). I have read and heard that they have now changed the geometry of their concert grand. Why? For volume? That would be absurd since it has probably has the greatest sound production if not very close. For clarity? The clarity of a Mason Hamlin is legendary and unlike many large pianos that only project to the side give the performer great feedback. They had to rework the piano because it sucks to play and everyone I talked to says they get blown off if they list an issue!
@@shvartze Wow. Yea that sounds horrible. 8 leads is unaccrptable. I haven't dealt with the cc's much, but certainly not the case with the vx. I know the design that was being used before the burgetts bought it had some issues. But I haven't seen enough of them to really comment. Perhapse theu were still using the old design. But I cannot say for sure. Definately seems like a Geometry problem and likely one that couldn't be fixed without a full rebuild. Glad to hear you got it fixed.
I'm guessing your set didn't have the issue that early versions did with the loose pins? As seen here: th-cam.com/video/9c7iNTYfJ5E/w-d-xo.html
I saw that video recently too. It makes me want to check my sample box and my extras from that project to see if the spring is stable or not. I’ll try to report back. I didn’t have any issues with clicking or malfunctioning of any type on the Baldwin.
WNG composite parts have not been around for a super long time. And I know the current version is different in several ways than the initial release. I would not be surprised to learn that they took care of this spring issue.
Good on Chris Chernobieff for showing a fix for when they have shifting springs.
Interesting.
John Simmons
Interesting. For the current Kawai action they have the carbon fiber composite action parts except for the hammer shank which is made of wood, also they use the traditional cloth bushings. I’m told the thought is that wood has particular acoustical properties that they wanted since it is in close vicinity to the vibrating strings. In regards to the bushings was to avoid the Steinway problem. What are your thoughts?
Hey Ted, thanks for drawing my attn to Kawai's use of composite materials. I enjoyed poking around their current literature. For the traditionally wooden parts of the repetition (whippen) it's really hard to argue with the merits of carbon fiber, so kudos to them!
I re-read WNG's website in which lacks mention of the acoustic properties of the hammer shank, eg. reassurance that their parts mimic the acoustics of wood. Though I've not worked w a Teflon-era Steinway action, I'm told there was a percussive element to the sound not found with cloth bushings. In other words, the bushing may be more of a tonal concern than the shank given the shock absorption of a cloth bushing. So, Kawai might be doing the right thing--lightweight, super-responsive whippen paired w acoustically ideally-acoustic shank (whether that's thanks to the wood or the bushing or both).
It's interesting to note that WNG launched their line (in the early aughts) with *cloth* bushings. They elected to upgrade(?) their parts with hard bushings later with their goal presumably remaining to produce the world's most advanced, best performing, and long-lasting piano parts. I wonder if Kawai along with WNG in the early days were not trying to avoid the *problem* of Steinway Teflon but rather the *problematic PR* of Steinway Teflon. In other words, these "hard bushings" appear to be trouble free when housed within composite material but pianists and technicians tend to form a cross with their hands and back slowly away when hearing mention of such things. I'm sure this is why WNG describes their bushing ("hard") and doesn't name the material. I'm leaning towards the conclusion that the ideal whippen is a composite one with "hard" bushings and that WNG wouldn't have braved the potential associations w Steinway's infamous era if they didn't present some serious benefits.
This is what I'm hoping as regards hammer shanks: I'm hoping that the tonal benefit of having properly and consistently-rigid composite shanks outweighs any departure from the ideal caused by foregoing wood and cloth. Flexing of wooden shanks causes two problems: loss of power as well as the hammer tip straying from the best strike point during hard blows. Additionally, wooden shanks can warp and lose alignment to the strings. Include also the inconsistency from note to note caused by variation in rigidity. The maintenance problems with wood and cloth are no fun either. I've had to repin my shanks so many times to try to keep the touch weight consistent and to avoid double striking. WNG shanks are reported to nearly eliminate that issue. And that's good for the consumer too!
I've mounted the whippens and shanks and hope to hang the hammers starting tomorrow. I can't wait to get a feel for these parts myself and go beyond the theoretical. You can be sure I'll produce a video when this journey is done!
So the issue with the steinway hard bushing was the difference in material between the wood and the bushing. So what would happen is that the wood would change shape and the bushing wouldn't. A test has been done with the hard bushings when basicly put on a player system set to run the parts at 4 blows per second and it was run for about 8 months. Most other parts were falling appart and the hammers were mashed flat. however with the WNG parts the hammers have groves that went all the way down to the core of the hammer. And the tension on the WNG parts were way too low. But after a repining they were good to go again.
Also There is no benefit to flex in the hammer shank. In fact this often leads to the hammer going off of the strike line. But its a common myth in the piano world so they make some of the shanks to be more flexible to accurately represent wood shanks. The big thing is consistency though. Wood just isn't consistent due to its nature as a material. My mentor talked to me about a story about a technician who was having a voicing problem with a petrov. He replaced the shanks with the composite ones and the voicing problems went away. What was happening was the parts used in that piano were not consistent. I suspect they used cheaper hammer shanks, but I cannot say for sure. Even tests with renner parts which are the best in terms of consistency as far as good goes have a lot of variance. Usually not to the extent that it causes voicing problems like the petrov
As far as pinning goes they are supposed to provide a specific gram resistance. The nature of felt and hard bushings are different so a gram gage is needed for this to work and due to the material of the bushing you actually need a bit more resistance than you would with a felt bushing. Actually when the resistance is too low you will get some clicks. you can get a repining kit if need be with instructions for what the resistances are, but you cannot use regular pins. They are actually made from needle bearings and if you find a WNG action with noise its likely a pin that is a bit too loose. This will happen over time as with any action.
As far as the design of the wippen shape its designed to work on most pianos and was designed that way for strength and weight. And weight does make a difference. Obviously there are oddball pianos out there where something may be outside of the norm. But not much that can be done about that.
edit: typo.
wood is better, composite is cheaper (shhhh ...)