I shoot .308 and I love .308. However, it is not because it is ballistically superior to any true precision cartridge. I like it because it costs 55 cents per round and it works in short-action semi autos. It also has long barrel life. I can reload it with the same bullets as my 30-06 and .300 win mag. I look at it in terms of firepower per dollar. Plus, it really can shoot well even with the rainbow arc!
Hr BeStalkinMe ... Worrying about the cost of long-range performance is a little like worrying about the gas mileage you're getting with a 560hp BMW M6... If performance is your primary objective, the cost of getting it is secondary.
I agree with what you said, but you won't get great precision out of 55 cent per round 308 ammo. sure, it will go bang and net you 2-3 moa or so, but if you want real accuracy you'll need to buy that $1 plus per round match 308 ammo, and at that point, you might as well be buying $1 per round Creedmoor ammo. I weaned myself off of 308 and for anything mid range, I now use 6.5 grendel (25 cents per round for steel case ammo, 68 cents per cheaper brass ammo, 80 cents for match ammo). Less recoil than the 308, similar ballistics for the most part, especially out at 600-800 yards, and fits in an AR15. As far as barrel life goes, to me barrels are consumable items, replacing them is no biggie. As for reloading, I have a feeling that soon 6.5 bullet options will expand considerably as creedmoor has become a very popular option as of late.
jpap967 Right and I agree with you. However, I reload the brass from that 55 cent ammo into precise loads for when I need to reach out to 800 meters. 6.5 grendel is definitely a good round for the AR15 platform, but I want more down range energy. I'll probably get a 6.5 creedmoor setup some day if I don't go with 300wm
I hate it when I see shot up tvs, toilets, beer bottles, etc. Normally I take with me a empty trash bag and fill it up. I actually was able to completely clean up one of the areas I like going to over a course of several months
I hate when people I work with or shoot with talk about bringing their old shit like that. Then they come back and talk about all the “junk” and trash that’s out there. And how bad it’s getting 🤦♂️
an excellent video. i have one opinion to offer about the differences in the calibers. so many shooters that start off into this and go .308 caliber use a fairly light grain bullet it seems. 150 or 175 even. if you wish to pay attention to the B.C. of what your shooting. it becomes apparent that size to some ( small) degree matters. the 6mm and 6.5 have many things on paper that put it out there. If you track your weight up higher in the .308 caliber however it will most likely translate into better wind handling. we're talking the 200 plus grain bullets. (makes you cringe for the target even time you hit it.) it's not necessarily a direct part of this video. very well laid out information and a big help for anyone that wants to get a long gun.
Your remarks on shooters (or anyone) that leave garbage... very much appreciated. My older boys watch your video series and one of them heard your remarks. He's organizing a clean-up of our range with his Boy Scout Troop now. Thanks for being a good example when so few are.
Just wanted to thank you very much for such a detailed in depth video.I keep a recording of it by my bed and recliner,you have completely replaced all of the sleep aids I use to have to take.I showed my sleep doctor your video and he will be contacting you about using it at his clinic.Thanks AgainSleeping Soundly
The drop is a function of BC and velocity. Use a 208 grain .308 AMAX with a BC of .65 out of a .300 Weatherby Mag at 3,000fps, and now a .308 bullet is comparable. Of course the trade off is recoil. I am recoil sensitive so I actually down load 6.5x55 with a 123 grain Amax, BC .510 @ 2,605fps, and duplicate the useful trajectory of 7.62 NATO with the 168grain BT. The recoil is so low that it is easy to see the bullet strike though the scope. Therefore, no spotter is required....
the military take cost into consideration before all else. also the military hates the thought of change. last but not least target shooting, competition shooting and any other "sport" will rarely use the same equipment as hunting game or hunting people when brush/barrior/flesh penetration and terminal ballistics mean more than .5-1 inch of accuracy gained.
This was really helpful to a .22 target shooter...peep sights at 25 yds..0.56” groups. I’m not sure WHERE you’d find 1,000 yards to safely shoot, but beyond 50, isn’t it mostly in the optics?? In terms of both money and “impacts.” One shooter said his scope was $3,000. Just walk CLOSER! 1500 rounds on a $500 barrel replacement.... I calculate that would be less than one month for me. In short, you guys are REALLY into this! I admire the precision, but I would never take a shot beyond 200 yards at any game animal. I’m a fan of biathlon, but your sport is the other end of the scale...high end.
You should make a video for guys transitioning out of .308 land. Maybe recommendations for which 6mm or 6.5 to go with and the pros and cons of reloading different 6mm vs 6.5? Just an idea.
Very nice informative video. About 15 years ago I bought a remington model 7. light deer gun 18 1/2 inch barrel I choose the 7mm-08. Because it was more accurate than a 308. Now we are down to 6.5 and 6 mm. My wife will kill me if I buy another gun. Kuddo's to you for a good and easy to follow presentation. Ihor
I use the mod 7 in 7mm08 as my texas stand gun because it is small. a long time ago my first deer gun was a browning blr in 308. it is also a good stand gun but the recoil is a little more than I like, although I shot it for 10-12 years. I loaded 30 cal 110 grn carbine bullets with 53 grn of 748 for many years to shoot almost I hole. it amazed my shooting friends. that is a very thin bullet for anything except whitetails. I quit using it when we got into hog control but it did kill a boar at about 40 yds I had mounted. Most of our shooting is less than 100 yds but occasionally it worked well out to 150 yds. I also have a mod 7 custom shop 257 Roberts that in my opinion is a very good cartridge for hunting texas whitetail. If I hit a shoulder it is a bad shot, even on hogs. Shooting paper is a completely different type of gun though and so should the cartridges be also. My second rifle in about 1971 was a rem adl in 243 with a redfield widefield in 2x7 for 202.00 at kmart and he let me pay it out. That rifle shot a lot of deer. Chest cavity deer shots with the 243 got to be a problem looking for the dead deer though. I have big guns also but recoil was never something I wanted a lot of. I may have 5 6.5x55 guns I like. As I grew older shot placement got a lot more important and the calibers got smaller. the 7mm08 is just the gun I settled on for convenience but 223 and head or neck on bucks, shots makes sure you don't have to look for the animal. I agree bigger bullets do a better job on humane body shots on animals. but this is a paper shooting thread.
Just a blanket comment, not to anything or anyone in particular. It's true that military methods and long range equipment is a good baseline, but by far not the best to mirror. The military unfortunately is limited to so much logistically, and to get new things to be pushed down the pipe takes a lot of process and funding with inevitably takes awhile as they try to modernize their equipment. With that being said, "I" have never believed that any particular caliber is or even projectile is less or more superior then the other as they all have a purpose. Everyone's criteria of shooting varies in the civilian and even the same can be said between different paramilitary organizations. Cost, efficiency, mission, laws, long range, short range, training, environment, external ballistics, terminal ballistics, the best of both terminal and external, pinking, availability. I can go on all day. I can reload a .300 wm or a .308 to have better bc and over all ballistics as well as apply the right equipment to manage the recoil vs. investing in 6mm, 6.5 creedmoor etc. (in example), but i have the equipment and knowledge to do so vs. some just wants to grab a box from the store, get some dope and shoot ELR, which is more than fine. Barrel life, is important too, I've found that magnums wear arguably very fast as well. Just some opinions for whatever its worth!
It is commonly assumed by lay people that shooting technology advances happen in the military and filter into civilian life, but that is often not the case. As often as not, the civilian side drives innovation, which is then acquired by the military once it is thoroughly proven.
From South Africa...Excellent, interesting and much appreciated information. After shooting 30-06 for so many years, I'm planning on getting a new caliber for hunting and playing ie. unofficial competitions. After much research on the internet, Iv'e decided on 260 Remington. Barrel life is a big plus for me, due to our money here being worthless at the moment. I don't want a .308, as every second person down the street owns one...Lol!
Marius Nortje I harvested a 4 point bull this season with my 243 1 shot he ran 89 yards and expired.Shot placement is key and yes at 500-600 yards my rifle will produce 4-5" groups.
I'm thinking of getting myself a 260 Rem, but for some reason people in SA don't like them so much. The other choice is a 6.5 x 55 Swedish. Same ballistics as the .260 Rem, but more versatile when reloading. Nothing wrong with the .243 though. I love the .243. My father in law has one, and I have shot a flower at 100meters(sub moa) with a standard Tikka. I just wanna be different, that's why I want to go with a 6.5mm. Barrel life is another factor I'm considering. The value of our money(Rand) have fallen so much that we in shooters in SA just can't afford replacing barrels all the time...
+Blake Patterson The video is talking about long range (and VERY long range) ballistics trajectory. If you drop back to “normal” hunting range of say 200 yards with a 168 grain, .308, and 100 yard zero the bullet will have a rise of 1.5 inches (from the muzzle) in the first 100 yards. Then it will drop to 4.3 inches (below the muzzle) at 200 yards. This is from the ballistics calculator on the FEDERAL web site. So, bullets DO RISE, but when referring to the distances for long distance shooting all you see is the drop. If you did not know this you are either STUPID, or REALLY GREEN to shooting.
LOL bullets do NOT rise after being shot. The only reason why your bullet will be high at 100 yards is just because of how you zero your rifle. If its high at 100 its because your barrel is at an upward angle to where the bullet hits high at 100. Its impossible with the physics of the universe and Earth for a projectile to rise after being shot. You really need to think before you ridicule someone (when he was actually right) calling him Stupid and "green" when you are the one thats wrong and have no idea what you're talking about
The replacement barrel cost is typically in the $200 range. That only adds about $0.04 per round to 6.5 over NATO. For me, the B.C. of the 6.5 is worth the reduced barrel life. You can get good deals on any cartridge, you just have to know when to buy them.
Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC Even it were $400 that's still only $0.08/round. People think replace barrel and panic unnecessarily. There are many other gun parts that are more problematic and expensive to repair/replace. I still stand by my comment.
Agreed. The barrel is a consumable item and replacing it shouldn't be something to fear. If you shoot enough and require a certain level of accuracy then you have to plan to rebarrel periodically.
Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC I found a source for AK12 variant receivers and was looking at www.ebay.com/itm/Wilson-Arms-308-4-Stainless-Select-Match-Barrel-Remington-700-Mauser-98-/122294873358?' for the barrel. Do you happen to know if the barrel throat (receiver insert) on these new AK's differs from the classic AK?
very good TH-cam article and information! Thank you for your work and doing this for the rest of us. The one thing in retrospect that I wish could have been done is using the 6.5 Creedmoor as a specific round because of the huge popularity of this round for many of us. Specifically I would like to have seen the reloading cost comparison between .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. The reason being that none of the rounds compared to the .308 in your comparison are available for purchase over the counter. A comparison of the 6.5 Creedmoor to the point 3:08 in the realm of reloading would be very valuable to us neophytes because reloading is the only way that the 6.5 Creedmoor could be a viable option financially. If a person buys .308 in bulk for example, it is not uncommon to find the FMJ rounds at gun shows 4 under $400 per thousand, to be used as practice ammunition to be sure. The best price I have ever found for a single box of 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition is $22 for Hornady 140 grain, 20 rounds per box. as I am unaware of 6.5 Creedmoor in bulk ammunition, we are talking about over $1,000 per thousand rounds, so reloading would be the only option for most of us.
+Ross Spoelstra we'll keep in mind that our channel is focused on precision longvrange shooting and "bulk" anything doesn't really fit in the same category. If you're shooting bulk ammo then you're probably not worried about precision & accuracy and therefore the creedmoor really isn't a good option. We have bulk .308 primary because it's also a military round and manufactured in bulk. For folks that are more focused on precision & accuracy the .308 & 6.5 creedmoor are both very reasonable cost wise for good factory ammo. Typically Federal Gold Medal match 175 gr .308 ammo is between $24-28 per 20, similarly both Prime or Hornady precision ammo for the creedmoor is also $24-28 per 20. The difference is the creedmoor stay supersonic further and therefore retains its precision to greater distances. Does that help?
Agree with trigger trash. People got the place my dad showed me how to shoot a 22 here in Montana closed to shooting. I found washer and dryers, tvs, engine blocks, and cans everywhere. We used to drive around up there in high school and our dads told us they were going to close it if it didn't stop. First they closed it to motorized vehicles. Then after they realized all the no driving rule did was put that stuff closer to the road. They finally put up a "no target shooting" sign, people shot it. Bring a rake and a garbage bag with you. Have some class guys. We are very lucky to have public land. Also quit shooting plastic buckets with tannerite. Where do you think that goes? Thanks for the videos
Excellent Cartridge! Mild recoil, flat shooting and will take down an elk if need be. It's also the easiest to find in factory ammo if you don't reload.
The 6.5 CDM has better ballistics. That being said the 7mm-08 handles much heavier bullets. They are both great rounds and like the 6.5 more and more as time goes by.
I dont' have any personal experience with it so I won't go out on a limb and give advise or opinion on it. I would recommend reading up on it on accurateshooter(dot)com. My understand is that it's a great round, especially for youth and ladies due to the milk recoil. Performance wise it's capable of shooting excellent high bc 7mm bullets but the speeds aren't great so you lose there. But once again I don't know enough to really field an opinion.
One of the biggest challenges with 7mm-08 is that there is no target ammunition available that I know of. There are scores of options for hunting ammo, but no target loads. Recoil feels like a .308 to me as well. I like it, load for it, but it isn't a competitive cartridge in PRS. I don't know of any of the top shooters who use it.
I shoot .308 because it is a very common cartridge. This could mean a lot if your life depended on it and you were foraging for ammo. YMMV and I understand this isn't particularly germane to long-range target shooting.
The elephant in the room that you are discounting is the energy on impact. Your info is great for putting holes in paper, and making pieces of metal go 'ding'. However if you are hunting, this means nothing if you don't deliver sufficient energy for the type of bullet that you are using to humanely kill.
Kinetic energy is calculated as KE = Mass x velocity squared so there is a point where a lighter faster bullet will carry more energy than a heavier bullet going slower. At 1000 yards my 6.5 x 47 Lapua Shooting a 140 gr bullet at 2840 is 865 ft/lbs at 1000 yards. A 308 Shooting a 168 gr bullet at 2650 FPS has just 547 ft/lbs of energy. So....
Yes, if you use that apple bullet vs that orange bullet at that particular range; the 6.5 numbers are nominally higher. I would point out though that the .308 (7.62) is the preeminent sniper cartridge for most of the world, including the US. When the people who know, bet thier life on it . . . what do they pick up the vast majority of the time?
Just because the military does something, doesn't mean it's the best option. Anyone who knows anything about the military knows that. Plus there are a wide variety of reason why the military would choose a particular cartridge that are of no concern for non-military shooters. If you want to explore the cutting edge of technology and what the best of the best are using, don't look at the military...look at competitors.
HELL YEAH on the rant brother. Love to hear folks talk about trash. heck we used to pile the junk up and start a fire before we started shooting (wet times) and then put what's left out before we left. Don't start forest fires of course! Great video,thanks. So why isn't the 243 talked about very much? Not a sexy new cartridge? It has to be a cheaper pick than anything but the 308,both guns and ammo
I consider a 140 grain bullet to light for a 200 lbs deer. The .308 165 and 180 grain have bone smashing power. Probably the longest shot I ever took at a deer is 250 yards. You want to to the range or hunt deer.
Dennis Cormican if you look at the sectional density of a 140gr 6.5 it is better than most .30 cal bullets. 6.5s ate very capable of taking deer. In fact the 6.5x55 swede is one of the most used calibers for moose in Sweden
Dennis Cormican 140gn bullet too light for a 200lb deer....ok, but at what range? Both my .280 Remington and my 7mm STW use the same identical 140gn Nosler Ballistic Tip. The .280 at 2800fps. The STW at 3200fps. I've yet to see any deer shot with either inside 450 yards take a step, regardless of size. Zeroed for 200yds, the STW with zero hold hits about 3" low on my 450 yard target. I would recommend it.
Dennis Cormican I agree. Have run 6.5, 222, 308, 300wm, 375 & 450NE ON deer. Shot placement and bullet construction are far more important than caliber. Robert Morgan you must be a magical shot or just FOS
IMO, Unless you're varmint hunting, anything beyond 400 yds isn't hunting, it's shooting. You're a) violating the concept of fair chase, and b) not showing respect for the animal that you are much more likely to wound than kill.
Thank you very much for your work on this superb Video! Now I`am torn between the 6mm and the 6.5mm. The 6mm is the better caliber for Long Range Target Shooting but with the 6.5 I`am allowed to shoot bigger game than roe deer here in Germany. Hmmmm.... decisions to be made...
Thank you for an informative, objective video. I particularly appreciate the whiteboard chart which certainly took a long time to draw. Snarky comments are out of place here. You have done the best job you could with the resources you had. Immense thanks, maybe some day I will shoot with you folks and lovingly get my ass kicked on the range.
Nice video, glad you touched on stability being the limiting factor of these cartridges however in my experience and according to my ballistic calculator the transonic ranges are a good bit shorter than the ones you gave. Still loved the video, very well put together.
I'm not a fan of magnums at all, feel like outside of carrying the bullet longer, I don't see much of an advantage to it. More recoil than necessary for most. Though I'd like your opinion and maybe you've already covered this, but regarding muzzle brakes and them breaking scopes. I've tried looking it up on many forums, but it's a mixed bag of results and they don't explain it well in layman's terms.
Awesome video. I had read that the 6.5 ammo was more expensive to buy than 308, but this video made it sound like that is not true. Comment? Also, shooting suppressed and using muzzle breaks... I thought that would have a negative impact on accuracy. I am surprised a lot of people are using them in competition, especially the suppressors. Is there a certain quality of suppressor that reduces that impact? Thanks, I am hoping to get into this as a hobby and applicably, for deer hunting, but I love the technical information behind it all.
I don't live in the United States so I shouldn't really comment on ammunition prices but I compared ammunition prices at Brownells and match ammunition for 308 Win and 6.5 Creedmoor seem to cost about the same. Sound suppressors or muzzle brakes should not have negative effects on the precision of a rifle (at least not if the gun smith has done the threads correctly).
I can definitely tell you've done a lot research and number crunching regard all this so first and foremost I respect your position on this. I'm sorry but I don't agree with your conclusion that the .308 drops less than the 6.5 Creedmore at 1000+ yards. They essentially, not exactly, use the same size billet. The difference is size and neglige. What is vastly different is the 6.5 has a much larger cartridge. Therefore, it possess more propellant. Physics dictates that a greater force enacted on an object results in a equally greater velocity of that object which the force acted upon. Yes, in an environment where we aren't in a vacuum and friction is present plays a factor but even this isn't enough to cause the .308 to drop less. gravity effects all objects the same regardless of their speed/velocity. Earth's gravity is defined best as a force that has a numeric definition of 9.8 meter/seconds squared. Therefore, drop rate would be dependent on how long the bullet remains in air and nothing else. Mass and weight have no effect on the rate which something falls towards Earth. Wit that said the 6.5 having a greater amount of force enacted upon due to a greater amount of propellant within the cartridge causes its velocity to be greater than that of the .308. Hence, since it has a greater velocity it reaches the target faster and this is just physics. Also, this is proved by you in your video. The 6.5 drifts horizontally less than that of the .308 so therefore it is a more stable round. Stability is directly related to a projectile's velocity. Just as I believe you said, when a projectile has more velocity is more stable and therefore has less drift. To be honest, I love the .308 but these findings are not entirely true and yet people still believe them. Now as to why your findings could be screwed. Although weight and mass don't effect gravitational pull they do have an effect upon an objects energy and velocity. This is proven by Einstein's equation E=mc2. E represents energy, m represents an objects mass, and c is the constant representing the speed of light. So if the projectile has a greater mass then its energy is lessened. Also, if there isn't as much propellant producing energy to propel an object then it's velocity is lessened as well. Other factors can also be the rifling of the barrel in which the round is fired, the length of the barrel of the weapon used, and the quality of the ammunition itself. This experiment doesn't have enough variables that are sterile and it does not seem there was even a control to gain a baseline. Beyond that, science dictates that an experiment must be peer reviewed and also be capable of being repeated with the same results many times by many different scientists. In the end your hypothesis may be correct but at this point it is just a hypothesis until you and many others prove it to be true. I hope you repeat this experiment/study because I think you have great potential and are very dedicated to this. Plus, you are on a platform where most people believe whatever they are told without a second thought so you have a great responsibility go to do your best and not lead these people wrongfully. Science the shit out of this and I promise you that I will be thoroughly impressed. I hope you aren't offended by what I've said. Take my advice and criticism in stride in order to learn from it. I wouldn't have gone out of my way unless I thought you had potential. If I didn't I would have ended the video and left it at that so hopefully you see this in a positive light and not a negative one
I was looking into building my daughter her 1st hunting/shooting rifle. I had been researching the 6mm and had decided on a 260. Before I put a lot of $ into it, I got her a youth 7mm08. I think I've forgotten about 6mm after seeing this little rifle perform. It drops deer like a 308 with little recoil. Do you guys have any experience or thoughts on the 7mm08? Thanks for any info.
+El freeRguns It's basically a slow 7mm. Check out accurateshooter.com for more info on the 7mm08. I think you've found a good options. I don't have extensive experience with it but i know of shooter who have bought them for their kids for hunting. The .243 is an excellent choice for a youth hunting round for deer and antelope.
In 2020 308's just an old glue horse. SOCOM just retired 308 from their long range target interdiction program they compared M118LR to 6.5cm and adopted 6.5cm immediately because according to them it cuts wind drift by 40%, and decreases drop by a 1/3 at ALL ranges. Also it increases max range by 1/3rd and by 1000 yards it doubles hit probability, and increases energy on target by 30%. soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/
...heh...probably the same reason most guys got into PRS..saw American Sniper....found out they could buy "sniper rifles" and do "sniper-like shooting" on weekends. With the only similarity being the "shooting at long range" being similar. Most shots seen in film are unrealistic..as many snipers have commented. Actual snipers (so they claimed to be...though, as a civilian...I find it odd they'd reveal their identity...show their face on a video having done what they allegedly had...I would have thought they would want to keep that quiet...blend in..so they don't have to watch their backs, have a family... Have to wonder what goes through the mind of the woman who marries an ex-sniper...a man that has taken lives).
That's a crappy job choice. My Dad did that job 1st Group Special Forces all I can say is no thanks. The guy has 80% disability that he had to fight VA over to get for 20 years from jumping at night and landing in trees & fences with a full load out. My parents were separated but he was gone so much his wife couldn't take it and while training in Australia she left him for her boss and took their two kids and moved across the country. He came home to find his truck, Harley, all his guns and everything they owned together sold and the bank account which had $10,000 in which was mostly his renlistment bonus drained. That divorce was hard on him and during it he got into a bar fight. Then when Clinton got in office and began downsizing the military they were looking for any reason to rid of people and they used my dad's bar fight as that reason. They counted his fight as two infractions even though it was only one and combined those two infractions with another that was 12 years old to come up with the three infractions they needed to kick him out. That's what Democrats like Bill Clinton do when they elected and want to downsize the military and they don't give a shit about guys like my dad who gave his best years to and devoted his life to the Green Berets. They honorably yet wrongfully discharged him 7yrs from retirement eligibility and as stated above screwed him out of disability benefits for 20 years. When he got out he had no real marketable skills in the job market his words were "killing people isn't a job skill" thus it was like he was starting over at 40. He spent the next few years working his way through trade school and it took another couple years there after for him to begin making decent money again. It's probably largely because of those financial setbacks he's faced and the fact military pay is a joke that I still having most of my working career ahead of me have a net worth four times that of my Dad. It's a dam shame what our military goes through Special Ops is a job that gets romanticized by moves and pop culture but after watching what my Dad went through I have a different perspective. I'm perfectly happy to shoot as a civilian on weekends and I made $150,000 last year running my own business working probably about as hard my Dad did on his military career meanwhile financially he struggles.
I appreciate the efforts but I couldn't agree with you. Why did you say that the difference between 308 and 6.5 could be 1 target to the right and 5 targets to the right? The 308's wind drift is only 18% higher than 6.5's according to your data, so it's actually 1 target to the right for 6.5 versus 1.18 targets to the right for 308. I also don't think the bullet drop means anything at all, to compensate that you just aim higher, how on earth does bullet drop affect your accuracy after you correctly adjust the elevation turret on your scope? It seems to me that for those who know how to correctly interpret the data shown in your video, they should be convinced that 308 is a better option (unless if you are doing serious competitive shooting in which case the 18% difference in wind drift matters so much to you) due to it's much longer barrel life, wide availability and superior hunting abilities. Also there are really cheap 308's but cheap 6.5's could be much harder to find?
How does one get in contact with someone from your group? I have sent several emails with no reply, or have you guys stopped shooting as a group. I would love to learn more about long range shooting.
Was shooting with a friend that hand loads for his Ruger precision rifle on some blm land we go to. We got out to 1440 yards and he was as on the steel target as i was, but the only thing i dont like is it can get difficult to spot bullet splash on misses or hear the steel being hit vs my 300 wm loaded with the berger 230gr hybrids. Other than that im converting my ar10 from 308 win to the 6.5 cm.
The 250 Savage (250-3000)is perfect. It is equal to 6.25 mm. The only problem is the absolute rip off pricing. Where can we buy 250 Savage ammo for regular pricing?
It’s become almost an exotic. My grandmother willed her 250 savage to my brother and he can only find ammo at gun shows. I would just reload for it if it were me. Cool round & rifle, not going to be out these modern rounds pound for pound but still very cool
you are so right about the trigger trash. Why are people so damn lazy? Most shooters, hunters, etc claim to cherish our outdoors. Prove it. Clean up after yourself and take your old couches etc to the dump. Great info by the way.
I'm in the process of selecting a caliber for long range bench rest or prone target shooting out to 1000m. I've narrowed it down to .308 and 6.5 x 55. Would the 6.5 x 55 be better for this type of shooting? I was hoping it would be in the review...
That video could’ve been 30 seconds long… higher BC at comparable velocities shoots flatter… that said… check your energy inside 400 on “targets”.. hard to beat a 30 when shooting anything other than steel plates or paper…
just wondering 6mm will give you less barrel life so is the 243win is it consider a one of the 6mm family. I was thinking of using my savage 11 22inch barrel get into the challenge shooting sport for long range .
+bassomanvfr I should have but for our purposes we were looking at short actions only as the vast majority of tactical style or PRS style shooters are looking solely at short actions to increase speed of running the bolt, etc. The swede is top notch and too often over looked by those in the US. My buddy just completed our 1 Mile Milk Jug Challenge with a 6.5 swede pushing 140 berger hybrids at 3100+ FPS.
but in an apples to apples comparison, the 30 Cal has more energy... yes it does. A realistic comparison. no, not your extremely fast high bc 6.5 vs a slow low bc 30 Cal... be fair. 30 Cal has more muscle, and is not half as picky as a 6.5.... idk anything about other calibers. Those two are he only ones I shoot...
Why was 168 gr used for 308? Most people stop using it just after your chart begins. Might as well have used federal 149 gr off the shelf to really send the point home.
+Aaron Cook I agree. I would not have chosen that heavy a projectile in this kind of test/comparison. I believe a 150 grain bullet would have performed better at this extreme distance.
+TOBORE8THMAN quite the opposite. The additional speed from a 150 gr does not compensate for the BC advantage of the heavier bullets. The 150 will lose speed more quickly and perform worse at distance. They would be better off testing a 175/178 gr which have a higher BC, retains speed and bucks the wind better.
i shoot palma comps. using 155 grain match bullets. no scopes no rsts or bipods 800 900 1000 yards can hit 2 moa or less easily (depending if the wind is not blowing)
stan wiktorowski I know a few guys who shoot Palma, but it's not as if you choose 155 gr because it's the better option. If you had a choice in the matter, invariably a heavier option with higher BC would be widely used.
could you talk about the differences between the 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creedmore and the 6.8 spc rounds? availability? is there major ballistic differences? ability to use in an AR-15 set up? i'm in need of some education on these rounds. thanks for the help.
thanks jason! thank you all as i have been educating myself on the differences of the 3 cartridges. still debating on what my next build will be. leaning on the grendel and just building an upper to use one of my existing ar-15 lowers. maybe my next bolt gun i'll get in the creedmore variety!
Your giving detailed comparisons of apples and oranges. Your also using cartridges that are going to be hail Mary shots at the ranges you referring to. "Beginners" asking what caliber to use beyond 500 yards are likely inexperienced enough to not even be competent at 500 yards. Manufacturers keep coming up with new cartridges that are clones in performance to much older cartridges-6mm Grendel doesn't have quite the performance as a .243 for example. The only advantage most of these cartridges have is that they are a half an inch shorter than the 308" cases enabling them to be used in ARs which was the main reason why these rounds were developed. Serious long range shooters have the equipment to deal with recoil and will use suitable cartridges for ultra long range.
James Grossmann it’s a comparison between popular rounds to explain why they are popular in basic terms. I’m not sure what your gripe is about the video. So many people who aren’t in the know think that because the military uses the .308 that it must be the king of long range however in nearly all varieties of long range competition, there is a separate class for the .308, almost a handicap for it because it’s at such a disadvantage to popular 6 mm and 6.5 mm rounds like the 6xc, 243 win, 6 x47, 6 creedmoor etc. This was my attempt at simplifying the question and showing why these rounds are a better choice than the .308 in most cases. I intended to make a follow up video to this and dive deeper and use applied ballistics analytics to show some modeling comparisons of these rounds but I have t gotten around to it. Ryan did a great job of exactly that in this video. th-cam.com/video/KhptFRrdo-o/w-d-xo.html
The 243 Win is a common example 6mm cartridge. Many of our shooter will also neck down their 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5 x 47 lapua from 6.5 mm to 6 mm making a 6 x 47 or 6 creedmoor. But the 243 Win is the only factory cartridge that comes to mind.
Honestly when people chase these optimal calibers it kind of makes me laugh a little. The entire point of us shooting long or medium range is the challenge with some of these standard military calibers. Shooting a laser beam literally takes away the whole point of why most of us shoot. Some guys just want to post the big numbers than chase the experience.
I agree with that to an extent, but I plink long range 400/500 yards with a 22 long riffle for a challenge. My higher calibers are more specific an for good reason.
super nice video get what your saying but i live in holland longest range 300 meters 308 more than enuf and love the big splash in the back stop sorry for the bad english
Honestly when people chase these optimal calibers it kind of makes me laugh a little. The entire point of us shooting long or medium range is the challenge with some of these standard calibers. Shooting a laser beam literally takes away the whole point we shoot. Some guys just want to post the big numbers than chase the experience.
Yeah i like how they try to compare 6.5 to 338 lapua at long range,,big difference is where it counts which is down range, the 338 is a sledge hammer compared to a mozzie bite 6.5 ...
Cole Lockhart agreed. At the same time, they are two very different tools. A cartridge like the 6mm creedmoor is really specific for PRS gun golf matches, and 338LM is for warfare.
One thing in just making a shot and shooting to kill as a sniper. A .308 (7.62X51mm) (M40A5) has a 1:12 twist using a 175 grain SBTHP or M118LR and has the stopping power. When looking at barrel life, when you have a 1:10 twist with a standard civilian rifle, the barrel wear will be different than a barrel with a 1:12 twist. Additionally, the .308 (7.62X51mm) is adopted as the standard NATO cartridge for the military (DoDIC A011). There is no choice and we snipers learn how to use it effectively, unless you are in MARSOC and use the MK13 .300 Win Mag which uses the 220gr SBTHP. The 6.5X47 is accurate and ballistically better than the .308 when shooting paper, not people. I have used both and when going to 1,000 yards, the 6.5X47 is better for accuracy in shooting paper like I said. I have shot competition as well as being a sniper. Just my own 2 cents on this. (USMC/Retired)
@@Actuary1776 You have it right Bro, "You pick the right caliber for the mission." Holes in paper vs. Killing Bad guy Shooting at you. Different missions, different cartridges. I'm a .308 man, U.S.Army. Our Brothers incountry are requesting .308's for range and knockdown.
eddieg1979 : I hope you answer this back you might be who I'm looking to visit with. I also am a former grunt Marine (G2/7) from back in the day. I'm putting together a rifle that I can get back into shooting with. I've got everything picked out except the caliber of the rifle. I want to do "some" match shooting but not sure how much, but also some coyote hunting. I have no interest in the smaller rounds like 243 and 5.56. But .308 can turn a coyote inside out if you blow the shot placement. The point is, getting a read on deciding between .308 and 6.5 creed is really hard today because you can't tell if somebody knows their shit or not. I am not at your level obviously, but did shoot expert and had a lot of time with a rifle in my hands, along with shooting competitive pistol. Do you have any thoughts based on want I'm wanting to do? Semper Fi
Ryan Socom also bought the mk23. When you don’t have to consider barrel life, 6.5 is better after the 500 yard mark.. if you do have to consider barrel life, .308 wins all day. Honestly after owning 6.5 AR10’s as well as .308s... I’d avoid a 6.5 AR10. They are a pain in the ass as far as gas regulation and pressures. That and you gotta look at your purpose in using a precision semiautomatic... it’s smarter to opt for the better inside 500 yard route.
@@IHateTH-camHandles615 Exactly , I am exited about the new 300PRC and I thought we were done with 30 cal stuff after the 6.5Creedmoor set the world on fire ! Who knew? They are all fun.
Considering cost per round fired including ammunition costs and firearms maintenance (barrel life, etc), and the value of learning about wind drift and bullet drop compensation at long ranges, I'll stick with my "outdated" .308 thanks.
I have been shooting for over forty years. I apprenticed under a gunsmith when I was a teen for 3 years hoping to make a career from that time. It became a serious pastime I am happy and sad to report. I served for 23 years, serving multiple tours in every corner of the world with all branches, and nations personnel. I retired earlier this year at E8 and both happy and proud to be here still today as a father, mentor and citizen. Reading through the comments, it makes me very happy to see how much great information (thank you LRSU) or bad is out there for all of us to benefit from in different ways. It makes me sad to see people argue over and convey ill feelings over a small topic such as trajectory, "rise", ballistics, gravity, etc. I admire our Constitution and respect our 1st amendment however behavior and rhetoric exercising that right, not only here but it so many other forums, damages our collective disposition to those seeking to degrade or usurp our 2nd amendment rights. My only opinion on the below comment regarding "rise"which might be just a difference of vernacular- please pause-think about what you write and how many people will see it-When you attach an icon such as US Army, or other orgs-it brings discredit to the organization via the negative and offensive commenting whereas when it is only a person's name it only affects one person. Quiet Professionalism goes a long way. Research and comprehension of the subject is paramount. I am not a physics expert. I am not probably an expert on anything I may have thought I was. I study, experiment, execute my craft. I make determinations based off facts(hopefully-when I have the luxury). A bullet WILL "rise" slightly leaving the muzzle-however it will NEVER rise above the axis of any barrel-unless you add wings for lift (-:-) That is a fact of physics. www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm Hope this is helpful-and if I offended anyone-my days of debating are over-I only have my experience and some wisdom to offer. Thank you again to Brice and LRSU for having a great channel and information to share with us.
Feteasca Alba Either you like the grapes or you must be Romanian or from Moldova-a place some of my brothers have worked with the host nation military. Dale, I can appreciate your "stolen valor" comment. I feel the same, however I fall into the 1% by your statistics...I have no obligation to prove anything to you. If my comment somehow bothered you, I apologize. I was only interested in passing on information I have obtained throughout my military career and involvement with the shooting industry and to also say, leaving negative, profane comments brings discredit to yourself and your branch when you have an avatar or icon identifying a specific military affiliation. I did not intend to "comes to these comments" and spread misinformation or negative comments. Make no mistake Sir, my service to my country is 100% verifiable. Godspeed to you Sir and your endeavors.
Feteasca Alba self employed Easy does it Dale...no one was insulting you. Actually I googled your avatar name and found it was a grape variety used for wines grown in Romania and Moldova. I was hoping for a different reply so I could ask you about your drift-boats for fly fishing as I recently taught my daughter to cast...but considering your disposition...this has to qualify as the strangest dialogue I have ever encountered. I have been respectful to you. You are not interested in reciprocation. Good luck to you.
+JP811931 With 168's, it compares pretty well but the increased bullet weight needs a bit more powder capacity to achieve the same results. To get the big BC's that 7mm offers you need to get up to the heavy end of the bullet weight spectrum. With a Berger 180 launched at 2550fps you're looking at just over 1300yrds before it goes subsonic. With a 168, just under 1300yrds at 2650fps muzzle velocity. Stepping up case size a bit, with a .284 Winchester you can get it up to 2800fps with the 168 which will take you deep into 1500yrds+ supersonic. The 180 actually only gets around 1400 and coin from the 7mm-08 case. To go much further you need more case capacity which would end up in a magnum. As with all things, more powder = more overbore = reduced barrel life.
JP811931 There's no need. 7mm is a fantastic long range calibre with long barrel life and plentiful choices of projectile. 6 and 6.5mm are nice but IMHO 7mm is better at everything at the price of increased recoil and powder consumption. 6mm has lower barrel life than I was ever comfy with. 6.5 is brilliant but component selection isn't quite as broad as 7mm and barrel life is marginally lower. If you're looking for a reason, "I want it, I want it, I want it!" usually works for me. I use all 3 in competition and they all work where I use em'.
+meccastreisand yea I think thats what i was looking to hear from somebody that actually competes...my 7mm-08 is a sako A7...and i was scratching my head on weather to buld a 6.5 rig and drop it in my cadex defence chassis that my 223 is in right now...but if its like u say...if 7mm-08 works...i dont mind a muzzle break...its just gonna be hard to find a nice chassis or stock for it
+JP811931 Matter of fact, right now I'm waiting on a 7mm-08 barrel to replace a .308 barrel on one of my match guns. If you can't find a chassis, glass bedding can do wonders.
Excellent video. Back here in the temperate forests of the flat land, we are lucky to see 200 yards, much less 1200 or 2000 yards. Sure love Utah though.
Most factory 308 rifles have a 22 inch or shorter barrel. They 168 grain match loads rarely exceed 2650 FPS. Years ago in our long range rifle class the 168 federal match loads were going subsonic at 800-900 yards and tumbling at 1000 yards. The military “long range M188” sniper ammo now uses a 175 grain bullet and allows about 1100 yards before going subsonic. Depending on where you shoot the .308 may not be able to engage the targets beyond 11 yards at all. If the match is within 1000 yards the .308 can be a fine choice. You aren’t losing any accuracy and barrel life is a strong consideration.
You're handicapping the .308 bullet by using a 168 grain projectile. You should have chosen a .308 bullet of equal/similar bullet weight. Perhaps a 150 grain .308 bullet which travels at 2900-2950 fps would have been a better comparison to the other lighter weight bullets.
+TOBORE8THMAN He isn't handy capping the .308 at all. If he pick a 150gr bullet gives a BC of around.415 in reality a 168gr bullet such as an AMAX or BTHP will have a higher BC which will cause the bullet to retain velocity and energy over distance. And actually the 140gr is on the heavy side for the 6.5 caliber and the 105gr is on the heavy end of the 6mm bullet. Since he is comparing the high end of both the 6.5 and 6mm really he needs to compare the 178gr bullet vs a 168gr, but his presentation was spot on Hornady factory loads with elevation the 150 gr bullet wins by about 2-8 inches of elevation at a given distance but at 1,050 yards the 178 bthp surpasses the 150gr bullet in elevation. 178gr bullet= 447.5 inches of elevation and th 150gr bullet= 456.3 inches But at just 150 yards the 178gr bullet suprpasses the 150 in wid drift. Full value wind at 10mph 308 150gr traveling 2800 fps .415 BC 150 yards 1.8 inches 200 yards 3.3 inches 300 yards 7.6 inches 400 yards 14 inches 500 yards 22.9 inches 600 yards 34.6 inches 700 yards 49.3 inches 800 yards 67.4 inches 900 yards 89.3 inches 1000 yards 114.9 inches full value wind at 10 mph 308 178gr traveling 2600 fps .535 BC 150 yards 1.6 inches 200 yards 2.8 inches 300 yards 6.4 inches 400 yards 11.8 inches 500 yards 19.1 inches 600 yards 28.5 inches 700 yards 40.2 inches 800 yards 54.4 inches 900 yards 71.3 inches 1000 yards 91.3 inches So in the end speed doesn't mean everything....
+TOBORE8THMAN The lighter 150 grain .308 bullets would actually perform worse than the 168 grain bullets. The 150 grain has a worse ballistic coefficient than the 168 grain. It would lose velocity much faster, drop more and drift more over the same distance as the 168 grain.
+TOBORE8THMAN According to Ballistics Explorer the right 150 gr bullet has a significant advantage over a 168 gr BTHP. Ballistics Explorer list the BC of the 168 gr BTHP at 0.483 and a 150 gr Federal Trophy Copper with a BC of 0.469. With both zeroed at 200 yards, Ballistics Explorer lists the drop for the 168 gr BTHP at 1375 inches at 1500 yards. BE lists the drop for the 150 gr Trophy Copper at 1195" at 1500 yards. The 150 gr actually drops 180 inches less than the 168 gr bullet at 1500 yards. I realize one bullet is lead and one is copper, but if you were choosing bullets for maximum range shooting, would you not choose the better bullet regardless of material? Wind drift, again according Ballistic Explorer is very nearly the same with 130" for the 168 gr and 125" for the 150 gr. So again, the lighter 150 gr has an advantage.
+Tanglerwr can you tell me where you can find 150gr Trophy Copper bullets.... and you must be rich to be shooting a premium bullet for such as target practice etc.....
By my math you are wrong about the 6mm vs 6.5mm A 105gr A-Max launched at 3000fps goes subsonic at aprox 1450yd while a 140gr A-Max 6.5 launched at only 2800fps should stay supersonic out to 1600yards, but the advantage does not end there, in a 10mph crosswind at 1,000yards the same 6mm will drift aprox 81 inches while the 6.5mm drifts only 70. For those who shoot more then just paper the 6mm only retains 454 ft/lbs at 1,000 while the 6.5mm is still delivering over 700ft/lbs and almost 40% more mass on target. Since I hunt with mine as well as long range shoot I choose the 6.5mm but mine is the superb 6.5x55 which you forgot to mention, it is a little faster then the 260 in a modern action. I have run the math with numerous different bullet makes and the 6.5mm wins in nearly every case. Yeah you could end up getting +/-100fps with either one depending on your barrel but 3000fps and 2800fps are about the norm in my experience. If someone wants the little flatter trajectory they can load a 6.5mm with the 123gr A-Max (or Lapua) to 243 speeds with a slightly better .510BC (.547 for the Lapua) and you can get that in either A-Max or SST flavor depending on your target. I have been very pleased with the 6.5mm on deer and wild hogs, plenty of caliber/mass/momentum to inflict rapidly fatal wounds, not quite as wide wounding as a 30 caliber but plenty even for less then perfect shot placement and considerably more the a little .243 cal.
Simon Smith Yep 6.5s are my favorite all around, though I have been known to bring a 30 caliber when hunting larger hogs, not that the 6.5 ever let me down but when it comes to big pigs you cannot go wrong with a larger bullet.
Simon Smith :) yeah .45 cals are great if you are hunting limited range, and 35 calibers are superb if you want a mix of range and impact. One of my next projects will be either a 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen, not that I need another gun but just because it is a more ideal tool then the 30-06 or 300 Win Mag for hog hunting.
Simon Smith Great minds think alike :) I was thinking of a BLR because 35 caliber and lever action just seem to go hand in hand, just wish they made an oldschool Marlin 336 in 358 Win but I know the action will have issues with that pressure.
I shoot .308 and I love .308. However, it is not because it is ballistically superior to any true precision cartridge. I like it because it costs 55 cents per round and it works in short-action semi autos. It also has long barrel life. I can reload it with the same bullets as my 30-06 and .300 win mag. I look at it in terms of firepower per dollar. Plus, it really can shoot well even with the rainbow arc!
Can't argue with that.
Hr BeStalkinMe ... Worrying about the cost of long-range performance is a little like worrying about the gas mileage you're getting with a 560hp BMW M6... If performance is your primary objective, the cost of getting it is secondary.
Heimdallr Right, thats why its not a true long range cartridge. It does offer good firepower per dollar, however.
I agree with what you said, but you won't get great precision out of 55 cent per round 308 ammo. sure, it will go bang and net you 2-3 moa or so, but if you want real accuracy you'll need to buy that $1 plus per round match 308 ammo, and at that point, you might as well be buying $1 per round Creedmoor ammo. I weaned myself off of 308 and for anything mid range, I now use 6.5 grendel (25 cents per round for steel case ammo, 68 cents per cheaper brass ammo, 80 cents for match ammo). Less recoil than the 308, similar ballistics for the most part, especially out at 600-800 yards, and fits in an AR15. As far as barrel life goes, to me barrels are consumable items, replacing them is no biggie. As for reloading, I have a feeling that soon 6.5 bullet options will expand considerably as creedmoor has become a very popular option as of late.
jpap967 Right and I agree with you. However, I reload the brass from that 55 cent ammo into precise loads for when I need to reach out to 800 meters. 6.5 grendel is definitely a good round for the AR15 platform, but I want more down range energy. I'll probably get a 6.5 creedmoor setup some day if I don't go with 300wm
Unless you're shooting over 1,000 yards, then anything .243 and above will do what you need
I hate it when I see shot up tvs, toilets, beer bottles, etc. Normally I take with me a empty trash bag and fill it up. I actually was able to completely clean up one of the areas I like going to over a course of several months
Well done!
Thank you!
Keep it up
....THANK YOU!!!! YOU ARE ONE OF THE BEST, HIGH-INTEGRITY, ECO-FRIENDLY SHOOTERS!!!! BRAVO!!! WELL DONE, SIR!!!! =>w/MUCH RESPECT!!!!
I hate when people I work with or shoot with talk about bringing their old shit like that. Then they come back and talk about all the “junk” and trash that’s out there. And how bad it’s getting 🤦♂️
an excellent video. i have one opinion to offer about the differences in the calibers. so many shooters that start off into this and go .308 caliber use a fairly light grain bullet it seems. 150 or 175 even. if you wish to pay attention to the B.C. of what your shooting. it becomes apparent that size to some ( small) degree matters. the 6mm and 6.5 have many things on paper that put it out there. If you track your weight up higher in the .308 caliber however it will most likely translate into better wind handling. we're talking the 200 plus grain bullets. (makes you cringe for the target even time you hit it.) it's not necessarily a direct part of this video. very well laid out information and a big help for anyone that wants to get a long gun.
Your remarks on shooters (or anyone) that leave garbage... very much appreciated. My older boys watch your video series and one of them heard your remarks. He's organizing a clean-up of our range with his Boy Scout Troop now. Thanks for being a good example when so few are.
Comments sections are sooooooo much more entertaining than the actual video
grateful video very helpful to a new shooter like myself as I'm trying to decide on my first long range rifle.
Thanks for taking the time
Just wanted to thank you very much for such a detailed in depth video.I keep a recording of it by my bed and recliner,you have completely replaced all of the sleep aids I use to have to take.I showed my sleep doctor your video and he will be contacting you about using it at his clinic.Thanks AgainSleeping Soundly
James Gordon BUUAAAHHAHAHA!!!! I’m dying! Best comment I’ve gotten.
The drop is a function of BC and velocity. Use a 208 grain .308 AMAX with a BC of .65 out of a .300 Weatherby Mag at 3,000fps, and now a .308 bullet is comparable. Of course the trade off is recoil. I am recoil sensitive so I actually down load 6.5x55 with a 123 grain Amax, BC .510 @ 2,605fps, and duplicate the useful trajectory of 7.62 NATO with the 168grain BT. The recoil is so low that it is easy to see the bullet strike though the scope. Therefore, no spotter is required....
the military take cost into consideration before all else. also the military hates the thought of change. last but not least target shooting, competition shooting and any other "sport" will rarely use the same equipment as hunting game or hunting people when brush/barrior/flesh penetration and terminal ballistics mean more than .5-1 inch of accuracy gained.
Spectacular video. Extremely well done. Brought a lot of facts into one presentation, cleared up a lot of fog on the topic. Thank you for doing it.
This was really helpful to a .22 target shooter...peep sights at 25 yds..0.56” groups. I’m not sure WHERE you’d find 1,000 yards to safely shoot, but beyond 50, isn’t it mostly in the optics?? In terms of both money and “impacts.” One shooter said his scope was $3,000. Just walk CLOSER! 1500 rounds on a $500 barrel replacement.... I calculate that would be less than one month for me. In short, you guys are REALLY into this! I admire the precision, but I would never take a shot beyond 200 yards at any game animal.
I’m a fan of biathlon, but your sport is the other end of the scale...high end.
You should make a video for guys transitioning out of .308 land. Maybe recommendations for which 6mm or 6.5 to go with and the pros and cons of reloading different 6mm vs 6.5? Just an idea.
Very nice informative video. About 15 years ago I bought a remington model 7. light deer gun 18 1/2 inch barrel I choose the 7mm-08. Because it was more accurate than a 308. Now we are down to 6.5 and 6 mm. My wife will kill me if I buy another gun. Kuddo's to you for a good and easy to follow presentation. Ihor
I use the mod 7 in 7mm08 as my texas stand gun because it is small. a long time ago my first deer gun was a browning blr in 308. it is also a good stand gun but the recoil is a little more than I like, although I shot it for 10-12 years. I loaded 30 cal 110 grn carbine bullets with 53 grn of 748 for many years to shoot almost I hole. it amazed my shooting friends. that is a very thin bullet for anything except whitetails. I quit using it when we got into hog control but it did kill a boar at about 40 yds I had mounted. Most of our shooting is less than 100 yds but occasionally it worked well out to 150 yds. I also have a mod 7 custom shop 257 Roberts that in my opinion is a very good cartridge for hunting texas whitetail. If I hit a shoulder it is a bad shot, even on hogs. Shooting paper is a completely different type of gun though and so should the cartridges be also. My second rifle in about 1971 was a rem adl in 243 with a redfield widefield in 2x7 for 202.00 at kmart and he let me pay it out. That rifle shot a lot of deer. Chest cavity deer shots with the 243 got to be a problem looking for the dead deer though. I have big guns also but recoil was never something I wanted a lot of. I may have 5 6.5x55 guns I like. As I grew older shot placement got a lot more important and the calibers got smaller. the 7mm08 is just the gun I settled on for convenience but 223 and head or neck on bucks, shots makes sure you don't have to look for the animal. I agree bigger bullets do a better job on humane body shots on animals. but this is a paper shooting thread.
Hey, good stuff. Love the whiteboard - easy on the eyes and super well organized. Well done.
Just a blanket comment, not to anything or anyone in particular. It's true that military methods and long range equipment is a good baseline, but by far not the best to mirror. The military unfortunately is limited to so much logistically, and to get new things to be pushed down the pipe takes a lot of process and funding with inevitably takes awhile as they try to modernize their equipment. With that being said, "I" have never believed that any particular caliber is or even projectile is less or more superior then the other as they all have a purpose. Everyone's criteria of shooting varies in the civilian and even the same can be said between different paramilitary organizations. Cost, efficiency, mission, laws, long range, short range, training, environment, external ballistics, terminal ballistics, the best of both terminal and external, pinking, availability. I can go on all day. I can reload a .300 wm or a .308 to have better bc and over all ballistics as well as apply the right equipment to manage the recoil vs. investing in 6mm, 6.5 creedmoor etc. (in example), but i have the equipment and knowledge to do so vs. some just wants to grab a box from the store, get some dope and shoot ELR, which is more than fine. Barrel life, is important too, I've found that magnums wear arguably very fast as well. Just some opinions for whatever its worth!
+Bruce Wayne listen up folks...that is how you leave a comment! Boom! Well done sir.
It is commonly assumed by lay people that shooting technology advances happen in the military and filter into civilian life, but that is often not the case. As often as not, the civilian side drives innovation, which is then acquired by the military once it is thoroughly proven.
From South Africa...Excellent, interesting and much appreciated information. After shooting 30-06 for so many years, I'm planning on getting a new caliber for hunting and playing ie. unofficial competitions. After much research on the internet, Iv'e decided on 260 Remington. Barrel life is a big plus for me, due to our money here
being worthless at the moment. I don't want a .308, as every second person down the street owns one...Lol!
Marius Nortje I harvested a 4 point bull this season with my 243 1 shot he ran 89 yards and expired.Shot placement is key and yes at 500-600 yards my rifle will produce 4-5" groups.
I'm thinking of getting myself a 260 Rem, but for some reason people in SA don't like them so much. The other choice is a 6.5 x 55 Swedish. Same ballistics as the .260 Rem, but more versatile when reloading. Nothing wrong with the .243 though. I love the .243. My father in law has one, and I have shot a flower at 100meters(sub moa) with a standard Tikka. I just wanna be different, that's why I want to go with a 6.5mm. Barrel life is another factor I'm considering. The value of our money(Rand) have fallen so much that we in shooters in SA just can't afford replacing barrels all the time...
Thank you so much depicting how the bullet is ALWAYS falling and not rising like most people think.
+Blake Patterson
Damn you are stupid! Or REALLY green.
????
+Blake Patterson
The video is talking about long range (and VERY long range) ballistics trajectory. If you drop back to “normal” hunting range of say 200 yards with a 168 grain, .308, and 100 yard zero the bullet will have a rise of 1.5 inches (from the muzzle) in the first 100 yards. Then it will drop to 4.3 inches (below the muzzle) at 200 yards. This is from the ballistics calculator on the FEDERAL web site.
So, bullets DO RISE, but when referring to the distances for long distance shooting all you see is the drop.
If you did not know this you are either STUPID, or REALLY GREEN to shooting.
LOL bullets do NOT rise after being shot. The only reason why your bullet will be high at 100 yards is just because of how you zero your rifle. If its high at 100 its because your barrel is at an upward angle to where the bullet hits high at 100. Its impossible with the physics of the universe and Earth for a projectile to rise after being shot.
You really need to think before you ridicule someone (when he was actually right) calling him Stupid and "green" when you are the one thats wrong and have no idea what you're talking about
>Call some stupid.
>Don't understand gravity.
>L
The replacement barrel cost is typically in the $200 range. That only adds about $0.04 per round to 6.5 over NATO. For me, the B.C. of the 6.5 is worth the reduced barrel life. You can get good deals on any cartridge, you just have to know when to buy them.
Most hand lapped barrels from Krieger, Bartlein, Hawk Hill, etc run $300-350 plus install. You might find a pre-fit barrel for a savage for less.
Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC
Even it were $400 that's still only $0.08/round. People think replace barrel and panic unnecessarily. There are many other gun parts that are more problematic and expensive to repair/replace. I still stand by my comment.
Agreed. The barrel is a consumable item and replacing it shouldn't be something to fear. If you shoot enough and require a certain level of accuracy then you have to plan to rebarrel periodically.
Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC
I found a source for AK12 variant receivers and was looking at
www.ebay.com/itm/Wilson-Arms-308-4-Stainless-Select-Match-Barrel-Remington-700-Mauser-98-/122294873358?'
for the barrel. Do you happen to know if the barrel throat (receiver insert) on these new AK's differs from the classic AK?
very good TH-cam article and information! Thank you for your work and doing this for the rest of us. The one thing in retrospect that I wish could have been done is using the 6.5 Creedmoor as a specific round because of the huge popularity of this round for many of us. Specifically I would like to have seen the reloading cost comparison between .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. The reason being that none of the rounds compared to the .308 in your comparison are available for purchase over the counter. A comparison of the 6.5 Creedmoor to the point 3:08 in the realm of reloading would be very valuable to us neophytes because reloading is the only way that the 6.5 Creedmoor could be a viable option financially. If a person buys .308 in bulk for example, it is not uncommon to find the FMJ rounds at gun shows 4 under $400 per thousand, to be used as practice ammunition to be sure. The best price I have ever found for a single box of 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition is $22 for Hornady 140 grain, 20 rounds per box. as I am unaware of 6.5 Creedmoor in bulk ammunition, we are talking about over $1,000 per thousand rounds, so reloading would be the only option for most of us.
+Ross Spoelstra we'll keep in mind that our channel is focused on precision longvrange shooting and "bulk" anything doesn't really fit in the same category. If you're shooting bulk ammo then you're probably not worried about precision & accuracy and therefore the creedmoor really isn't a good option. We have bulk .308 primary because it's also a military round and manufactured in bulk. For folks that are more focused on precision & accuracy the .308 & 6.5 creedmoor are both very reasonable cost wise for good factory ammo. Typically Federal Gold Medal match 175 gr .308 ammo is between $24-28 per 20, similarly both Prime or Hornady precision ammo for the creedmoor is also $24-28 per 20. The difference is the creedmoor stay supersonic further and therefore retains its precision to greater distances. Does that help?
Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC yes it does help and answer my question, thank you very much and keep up the good work!
now I can hear it! thank you for the video.
Respect the land as much as we respect the flag. Because the flag represents the land. Well said. Don't litter guys.
A great video. VERY informative and well balanced. Thank you.
27:55 Well spoken!!
That was very well done, a lot of info condensed. Kind of made the complexe easy to understandable.
Agree with trigger trash. People got the place my dad showed me how to shoot a 22 here in Montana closed to shooting. I found washer and dryers, tvs, engine blocks, and cans everywhere. We used to drive around up there in high school and our dads told us they were going to close it if it didn't stop. First they closed it to motorized vehicles. Then after they realized all the no driving rule did was put that stuff closer to the road. They finally put up a "no target shooting" sign, people shot it. Bring a rake and a garbage bag with you. Have some class guys. We are very lucky to have public land. Also quit shooting plastic buckets with tannerite. Where do you think that goes? Thanks for the videos
In my opinion if you going to shoot over 500 yards your range finder is more critical then whatever caliber you happen to have in hand .
I choosed 308 for barrel life and price. I will load slow cartridge and manage the drop. My friends were able to hunt moose with 6.5 and 260 ackley.
6.5mm and 6.8mm cartridges are fabulous for wounding game at longer distances than you can kill with a .308.
Except 6.5 hits harder than 308 at longer distances
@@gsxr1189 I wasn't gonna go there, but....encouraging marginal shooters to take longer shots at game is something you think is worth encouraging?
@@chuckschillingvideos Please explain how I did so. Besides if you think hunting is the only reason someone should own a rifle you're a fudd anyway.
I guess you know you're getting old when your favorite things begin getting replaced by newer and better like the case with 308 & 6.5cm.
Thoughts and opinions on the 7mm-08?
Excellent Cartridge! Mild recoil, flat shooting and will take down an elk if need be. It's also the easiest to find in factory ammo if you don't reload.
6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo is getting easy to find now. So how do you compare the 7mm-08 to the 6.5 CM?
The 6.5 CDM has better ballistics. That being said the 7mm-08 handles much heavier bullets. They are both great rounds and like the 6.5 more and more as time goes by.
I dont' have any personal experience with it so I won't go out on a limb and give advise or opinion on it. I would recommend reading up on it on accurateshooter(dot)com. My understand is that it's a great round, especially for youth and ladies due to the milk recoil. Performance wise it's capable of shooting excellent high bc 7mm bullets but the speeds aren't great so you lose there. But once again I don't know enough to really field an opinion.
One of the biggest challenges with 7mm-08 is that there is no target ammunition available that I know of. There are scores of options for hunting ammo, but no target loads. Recoil feels like a .308 to me as well. I like it, load for it, but it isn't a competitive cartridge in PRS. I don't know of any of the top shooters who use it.
I shoot .308 because it is a very common cartridge. This could mean a lot if your life depended on it and you were foraging for ammo. YMMV and I understand this isn't particularly germane to long-range target shooting.
The elephant in the room that you are discounting is the energy on impact. Your info is great for putting holes in paper, and making pieces of metal go 'ding'. However if you are hunting, this means nothing if you don't deliver sufficient energy for the type of bullet that you are using to humanely kill.
Kinetic energy is calculated as KE = Mass x velocity squared so there is a point where a lighter faster bullet will carry more energy than a heavier bullet going slower. At 1000 yards my 6.5 x 47 Lapua Shooting a 140 gr bullet at 2840 is 865 ft/lbs at 1000 yards. A 308 Shooting a 168 gr bullet at 2650 FPS has just 547 ft/lbs of energy. So....
Yes, if you use that apple bullet vs that orange bullet at that particular range; the 6.5 numbers are nominally higher. I would point out though that the .308 (7.62) is the preeminent sniper cartridge for most of the world, including the US. When the people who know, bet thier life on it . . . what do they pick up the vast majority of the time?
It looks like USSOCOM didn't get the memo about "the preeminent sniper cartridge" because SOCOM recently adopted 6.5 Creedmoor.
Just because the military does something, doesn't mean it's the best option. Anyone who knows anything about the military knows that. Plus there are a wide variety of reason why the military would choose a particular cartridge that are of no concern for non-military shooters. If you want to explore the cutting edge of technology and what the best of the best are using, don't look at the military...look at competitors.
HELL YEAH on the rant brother. Love to hear folks talk about trash. heck we used to pile the junk up and start a fire before we started shooting (wet times) and then put what's left out before we left. Don't start forest fires of course!
Great video,thanks.
So why isn't the 243 talked about very much? Not a sexy new cartridge? It has to be a cheaper pick than anything but the 308,both guns and ammo
I believe I mentioned the .243 when I spoke about 6mm's. It's an excellent option.
You did but said more about the 6X47.
Anyway I'm up in Salmon ID and have plenty of room to try all this now.
I consider a 140 grain bullet to light for a 200 lbs deer. The .308 165 and 180 grain have bone smashing power. Probably the longest shot I ever took at a deer is 250 yards. You want to to the range or hunt deer.
Dennis Cormican if you look at the sectional density of a 140gr 6.5 it is better than most .30 cal bullets. 6.5s ate very capable of taking deer. In fact the 6.5x55 swede is one of the most used calibers for moose in Sweden
Dennis Cormican 140gn bullet too light for a 200lb deer....ok, but at what range?
Both my .280 Remington and my 7mm STW use the same identical 140gn Nosler Ballistic Tip.
The .280 at 2800fps.
The STW at 3200fps.
I've yet to see any deer shot with either inside 450 yards take a step, regardless of size.
Zeroed for 200yds, the STW with zero hold hits about 3" low on my 450 yard target. I would recommend it.
Dennis Cormican I agree. Have run 6.5, 222, 308, 300wm, 375 & 450NE ON deer. Shot placement and bullet construction are far more important than caliber. Robert Morgan you must be a magical shot or just FOS
IMO, Unless you're varmint hunting, anything beyond 400 yds isn't hunting, it's shooting. You're a) violating the concept of fair chase, and b) not showing respect for the animal that you are much more likely to wound than kill.
Thank you very much for your work on this superb Video! Now I`am torn between the 6mm and the 6.5mm. The 6mm is the better caliber for Long Range Target Shooting but with the 6.5 I`am allowed to shoot bigger game than roe deer here in Germany. Hmmmm.... decisions to be made...
Thank you for an informative, objective video. I particularly appreciate the whiteboard chart which certainly took a long time to draw. Snarky comments are out of place here. You have done the best job you could with the resources you had. Immense thanks, maybe some day I will shoot with you folks and lovingly get my ass kicked on the range.
Nice video, glad you touched on stability being the limiting factor of these cartridges however in my experience and according to my ballistic calculator the transonic ranges are a good bit shorter than the ones you gave. Still loved the video, very well put together.
+Aaron Ridgedell We have thin air due to our high altitude here. That could factor into it a bit but these were rough numbers.
308 the best
Outstanding. Thank you.
Shoot farther, not shoot further.
*farther
SCHOOLS DISCONTINUED ENGLISH AS A SUBJECT DECADES AGO
HOW ABOUT "FARTER"?😂
great video man, can you do a comparison of .300 WM .338 LM thanks!!
Have you seen the new 6.5-300 Weatherby? That's a screamer!
I have had a 264 win mag for many years and also a 7mm ultra mag but I don't shoot them a lot because of cost.
I'm not a fan of magnums at all, feel like outside of carrying the bullet longer, I don't see much of an advantage to it. More recoil than necessary for most. Though I'd like your opinion and maybe you've already covered this, but regarding muzzle brakes and them breaking scopes. I've tried looking it up on many forums, but it's a mixed bag of results and they don't explain it well in layman's terms.
Awesome video. I had read that the 6.5 ammo was more expensive to buy than 308, but this video made it sound like that is not true. Comment? Also, shooting suppressed and using muzzle breaks... I thought that would have a negative impact on accuracy. I am surprised a lot of people are using them in competition, especially the suppressors. Is there a certain quality of suppressor that reduces that impact? Thanks, I am hoping to get into this as a hobby and applicably, for deer hunting, but I love the technical information behind it all.
I don't live in the United States so I shouldn't really comment on ammunition prices but I compared ammunition prices at Brownells and match ammunition for 308 Win and 6.5 Creedmoor seem to cost about the same.
Sound suppressors or muzzle brakes should not have negative effects on the precision of a rifle (at least not if the gun smith has done the threads correctly).
At 700 yards the 308 hit harder than 6.5 creedmoor and 260 check the video 260 vs 308 and 308 vs 6.5 creedmoor
That depends on the bullet. With the most commonly used bullets 308Win will have lower energy at 700 yards than 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor.
Excellent video Bryce, very well explained, wish I could shoot over there with you Guys
Good stuff. Johnnywoo UK
I can definitely tell you've done a lot research and number crunching regard all this so first and foremost I respect your position on this. I'm sorry but I don't agree with your conclusion that the .308 drops less than the 6.5 Creedmore at 1000+ yards. They essentially, not exactly, use the same size billet. The difference is size and neglige. What is vastly different is the 6.5 has a much larger cartridge. Therefore, it possess more propellant. Physics dictates that a greater force enacted on an object results in a equally greater velocity of that object which the force acted upon. Yes, in an environment where we aren't in a vacuum and friction is present plays a factor but even this isn't enough to cause the .308 to drop less. gravity effects all objects the same regardless of their speed/velocity. Earth's gravity is defined best as a force that has a numeric definition of 9.8 meter/seconds squared. Therefore, drop rate would be dependent on how long the bullet remains in air and nothing else. Mass and weight have no effect on the rate which something falls towards Earth. Wit that said the 6.5 having a greater amount of force enacted upon due to a greater amount of propellant within the cartridge causes its velocity to be greater than that of the .308. Hence, since it has a greater velocity it reaches the target faster and this is just physics. Also, this is proved by you in your video. The 6.5 drifts horizontally less than that of the .308 so therefore it is a more stable round. Stability is directly related to a projectile's velocity. Just as I believe you said, when a projectile has more velocity is more stable and therefore has less drift. To be honest, I love the .308 but these findings are not entirely true and yet people still believe them.
Now as to why your findings could be screwed. Although weight and mass don't effect gravitational pull they do have an effect upon an objects energy and velocity. This is proven by Einstein's equation E=mc2. E represents energy, m represents an objects mass, and c is the constant representing the speed of light. So if the projectile has a greater mass then its energy is lessened. Also, if there isn't as much propellant producing energy to propel an object then it's velocity is lessened as well. Other factors can also be the rifling of the barrel in which the round is fired, the length of the barrel of the weapon used, and the quality of the ammunition itself. This experiment doesn't have enough variables that are sterile and it does not seem there was even a control to gain a baseline. Beyond that, science dictates that an experiment must be peer reviewed and also be capable of being repeated with the same results many times by many different scientists. In the end your hypothesis may be correct but at this point it is just a hypothesis until you and many others prove it to be true. I hope you repeat this experiment/study because I think you have great potential and are very dedicated to this. Plus, you are on a platform where most people believe whatever they are told without a second thought so you have a great responsibility go to do your best and not lead these people wrongfully. Science the shit out of this and I promise you that I will be thoroughly impressed. I hope you aren't offended by what I've said. Take my advice and criticism in stride in order to learn from it. I wouldn't have gone out of my way unless I thought you had potential. If I didn't I would have ended the video and left it at that so hopefully you see this in a positive light and not a negative one
I was looking into building my daughter her 1st hunting/shooting rifle. I had been researching the 6mm and had decided on a 260. Before I put a lot of $ into it, I got her a youth 7mm08. I think I've forgotten about 6mm after seeing this little rifle perform. It drops deer like a 308 with little recoil.
Do you guys have any experience or thoughts on the 7mm08?
Thanks for any info.
+El freeRguns It's basically a slow 7mm. Check out accurateshooter.com for more info on the 7mm08. I think you've found a good options. I don't have extensive experience with it but i know of shooter who have bought them for their kids for hunting. The .243 is an excellent choice for a youth hunting round for deer and antelope.
.308 ain't dead! 175 grain M118 Long Range 7.62!
In 2020 308's just an old glue horse.
SOCOM just retired 308 from their long range target interdiction program they compared M118LR to 6.5cm and adopted 6.5cm immediately because according to them it cuts wind drift by 40%, and decreases drop by a 1/3 at ALL ranges. Also it increases max range by 1/3rd and by 1000 yards it doubles hit probability, and increases energy on target by 30%.
soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/
I do shoot at stuff but I try to pick up the mess.
Great video.
Excellent!
...heh...probably the same reason most guys got into PRS..saw American Sniper....found out they could buy "sniper rifles" and do "sniper-like shooting" on weekends. With the only similarity being the "shooting at long range" being similar. Most shots seen in film are unrealistic..as many snipers have commented. Actual snipers (so they claimed to be...though, as a civilian...I find it odd they'd reveal their identity...show their face on a video having done what they allegedly had...I would have thought they would want to keep that quiet...blend in..so they don't have to watch their backs, have a family... Have to wonder what goes through the mind of the woman who marries an ex-sniper...a man that has taken lives).
That's a crappy job choice. My Dad did that job 1st Group Special Forces all I can say is no thanks. The guy has 80% disability that he had to fight VA over to get for 20 years from jumping at night and landing in trees & fences with a full load out. My parents were separated but he was gone so much his wife couldn't take it and while training in Australia she left him for her boss and took their two kids and moved across the country. He came home to find his truck, Harley, all his guns and everything they owned together sold and the bank account which had $10,000 in which was mostly his renlistment bonus drained. That divorce was hard on him and during it he got into a bar fight. Then when Clinton got in office and began downsizing the military they were looking for any reason to rid of people and they used my dad's bar fight as that reason. They counted his fight as two infractions even though it was only one and combined those two infractions with another that was 12 years old to come up with the three infractions they needed to kick him out. That's what Democrats like Bill Clinton do when they elected and want to downsize the military and they don't give a shit about guys like my dad who gave his best years to and devoted his life to the Green Berets. They honorably yet wrongfully discharged him 7yrs from retirement eligibility and as stated above screwed him out of disability benefits for 20 years. When he got out he had no real marketable skills in the job market his words were "killing people isn't a job skill" thus it was like he was starting over at 40. He spent the next few years working his way through trade school and it took another couple years there after for him to begin making decent money again. It's probably largely because of those financial setbacks he's faced and the fact military pay is a joke that I still having most of my working career ahead of me have a net worth four times that of my Dad. It's a dam shame what our military goes through Special Ops is a job that gets romanticized by moves and pop culture but after watching what my Dad went through I have a different perspective. I'm perfectly happy to shoot as a civilian on weekends and I made $150,000 last year running my own business working probably about as hard my Dad did on his military career meanwhile financially he struggles.
I appreciate the efforts but I couldn't agree with you.
Why did you say that the difference between 308 and 6.5 could be 1 target to the right and 5 targets to the right? The 308's wind drift is only 18% higher than 6.5's according to your data, so it's actually 1 target to the right for 6.5 versus 1.18 targets to the right for 308.
I also don't think the bullet drop means anything at all, to compensate that you just aim higher, how on earth does bullet drop affect your accuracy after you correctly adjust the elevation turret on your scope?
It seems to me that for those who know how to correctly interpret the data shown in your video, they should be convinced that 308 is a better option (unless if you are doing serious competitive shooting in which case the 18% difference in wind drift matters so much to you) due to it's much longer barrel life, wide availability and superior hunting abilities. Also there are really cheap 308's but cheap 6.5's could be much harder to find?
great video
How does one get in contact with someone from your group? I have sent several emails with no reply, or have you guys stopped shooting as a group. I would love to learn more about long range shooting.
We’re still here. You can email me at info@longrangeshootersofutah.com
Was shooting with a friend that hand loads for his Ruger precision rifle on some blm land we go to. We got out to 1440 yards and he was as on the steel target as i was, but the only thing i dont like is it can get difficult to spot bullet splash on misses or hear the steel being hit vs my 300 wm loaded with the berger 230gr hybrids. Other than that im converting my ar10 from 308 win to the 6.5 cm.
how fast do you burn out the barrels on a 6.5/6mm compared to .308 ?
The 250 Savage (250-3000)is perfect. It is equal to 6.25 mm. The only problem is the absolute rip off pricing. Where can we buy 250 Savage ammo for regular pricing?
It’s become almost an exotic. My grandmother willed her 250 savage to my brother and he can only find ammo at gun shows. I would just reload for it if it were me. Cool round & rifle, not going to be out these modern rounds pound for pound but still very cool
You should go teaching. Very nice.
Ouch...6.5x47 is some expensive round...
Alco came out with a project a with a 651 bc in 308.
you are so right about the trigger trash. Why are people so damn lazy? Most shooters, hunters, etc claim to cherish our outdoors. Prove it. Clean up after yourself and take your old couches etc to the dump. Great info by the way.
6.5x55 Swedish supremacy
bullets gain more stability as they slow down just so you know it’s most unstable at the muzzle
I'm in the process of selecting a caliber for long range bench rest or prone target shooting out to 1000m. I've narrowed it down to .308 and 6.5 x 55. Would the 6.5 x 55 be better for this type of shooting? I was hoping it would be in the review...
A 308 goes transonic befor 1300 yards, there's no way idc what bullet powder combo you choose there's no way without a custom barrel/gun/chamber.
Our density altitude is generally 8k feet in Utah.
Sound is working now!!
I love your comment about trigger trash. Excellent info in the rest of the video too!
That video could’ve been 30 seconds long… higher BC at comparable velocities shoots flatter… that said… check your energy inside 400 on “targets”.. hard to beat a 30 when shooting anything other than steel plates or paper…
🤦♂️
just wondering 6mm will give you less barrel life so is the 243win is it consider a one of the 6mm family. I was thinking of using my savage 11 22inch barrel get into the challenge shooting sport for long range .
good stuff but you lost me in not mentioning the 6.5x55 Swedish
+bassomanvfr I should have but for our purposes we were looking at short actions only as the vast majority of tactical style or PRS style shooters are looking solely at short actions to increase speed of running the bolt, etc. The swede is top notch and too often over looked by those in the US. My buddy just completed our 1 Mile Milk Jug Challenge with a 6.5 swede pushing 140 berger hybrids at 3100+ FPS.
Sick logo
but in an apples to apples comparison, the 30 Cal has more energy... yes it does. A realistic comparison. no, not your extremely fast high bc 6.5 vs a slow low bc 30 Cal... be fair. 30 Cal has more muscle, and is not half as picky as a 6.5.... idk anything about other calibers. Those two are he only ones I shoot...
They don't dominate, they just move a little faster that's all.
They dominate among PRS shooters.... precisionrifleblog.com/2017/02/16/long-range-calibers-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/
Why was 168 gr used for 308? Most people stop using it just after your chart begins. Might as well have used federal 149 gr off the shelf to really send the point home.
+Aaron Cook I agree. I would not have chosen that heavy a projectile in this kind of test/comparison. I believe a 150 grain bullet would have performed better at this extreme distance.
+TOBORE8THMAN quite the opposite. The additional speed from a 150 gr does not compensate for the BC advantage of the heavier bullets. The 150 will lose speed more quickly and perform worse at distance. They would be better off testing a 175/178 gr which have a higher BC, retains speed and bucks the wind better.
i shoot palma comps. using 155 grain match bullets. no scopes no rsts or bipods 800 900 1000 yards can hit 2 moa or less easily (depending if the wind is not blowing)
stan wiktorowski I know a few guys who shoot Palma, but it's not as if you choose 155 gr because it's the better option. If you had a choice in the matter, invariably a heavier option with higher BC would be widely used.
could you talk about the differences between the 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creedmore and the 6.8 spc rounds? availability? is there major ballistic differences? ability to use in an AR-15 set up? i'm in need of some education on these rounds. thanks for the help.
the 6.5 creedmore is a long range round. 6.5 grendel and 6.8spc are more "assault rifle" rounds 0-600 meters. hope that helps a little
in a ar15 the 6.5 grendel will be by far the cheapest. since wolf steel case is available for training and plinking. way cheaper
the 6.8spc and 6.5 creedmore will need the ar10. 6.5 grendel will be for the ar15. The grendel is good to 1200 yards and very accurate.
thanks!
thanks jason! thank you all as i have been educating myself on the differences of the 3 cartridges. still debating on what my next build will be. leaning on the grendel and just building an upper to use one of my existing ar-15 lowers. maybe my next bolt gun i'll get in the creedmore variety!
Your giving detailed comparisons of apples and oranges. Your also using cartridges that are going to be hail Mary shots at the ranges you referring to. "Beginners" asking what caliber to use beyond 500 yards are likely inexperienced enough to not even be competent at 500 yards.
Manufacturers keep coming up with new cartridges that are clones in performance to much older cartridges-6mm Grendel doesn't have quite the performance as a .243 for example. The only advantage most of these cartridges have is that they are a half an inch shorter than the 308" cases enabling them to be used in ARs which was the main reason why these rounds were developed.
Serious long range shooters have the equipment to deal with recoil and will use suitable cartridges for ultra long range.
James Grossmann it’s a comparison between popular rounds to explain why they are popular in basic terms. I’m not sure what your gripe is about the video. So many people who aren’t in the know think that because the military uses the .308 that it must be the king of long range however in nearly all varieties of long range competition, there is a separate class for the .308, almost a handicap for it because it’s at such a disadvantage to popular 6 mm and 6.5 mm rounds like the 6xc, 243 win, 6 x47, 6 creedmoor etc. This was my attempt at simplifying the question and showing why these rounds are a better choice than the .308 in most cases. I intended to make a follow up video to this and dive deeper and use applied ballistics analytics to show some modeling comparisons of these rounds but I have t gotten around to it. Ryan did a great job of exactly that in this video. th-cam.com/video/KhptFRrdo-o/w-d-xo.html
when you say 6mm what exactly is that is it a complete custom rifle or are they made by manufacturers
The 243 Win is a common example 6mm cartridge. Many of our shooter will also neck down their 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5 x 47 lapua from 6.5 mm to 6 mm making a 6 x 47 or 6 creedmoor. But the 243 Win is the only factory cartridge that comes to mind.
6XC is also a factory cartridge. (6mm Creedmoor is about to become one.)
That's correct.
Honestly when people chase these optimal calibers it kind of makes me laugh a little. The entire point of us shooting long or medium range is the challenge with some of these standard military calibers.
Shooting a laser beam literally takes away the whole point of why most of us shoot. Some guys just want to post the big numbers than chase the experience.
I agree with that to an extent, but I plink long range 400/500 yards with a 22 long riffle for a challenge. My higher calibers are more specific an for good reason.
Great Video
300 win mag for life! Because it’s loud, powerful, and it looks so damn sexy
7 mag as well!!!
Try 338 Lapua Mag
215 gr Berger VLD in that round could be the most complete round ever devised
True but 338 lapua looks better
8x68s was a monster
super nice video get what your saying but i live in holland longest range 300 meters 308 more than enuf and love the big splash in the back stop sorry for the bad english
I'm guessing if you guys wanted longer ranges you would have to shoot through the turning windmill sails like at a mini golf course ;-)
would like to do that but I will get arrested thrown in jail and my guns gone for the rest of my live lol
Hmm, that doesn't sound as fun as I was imagining...
Your English is much better than my Dutch.
Your English is better than most of ours!
I just love .308 never shot the other calibers but I've shot and hit 800 yards nothing else I can really say
Honestly when people chase these optimal calibers it kind of makes me laugh a little. The entire point of us shooting long or medium range is the challenge with some of these standard calibers.
Shooting a laser beam literally takes away the whole point we shoot. Some guys just want to post the big numbers than chase the experience.
Yeah i like how they try to compare 6.5 to 338 lapua at long range,,big difference is where it counts which is down range, the 338 is a sledge hammer compared to a mozzie bite 6.5 ...
Cole Lockhart agreed. At the same time, they are two very different tools. A cartridge like the 6mm creedmoor is really specific for PRS gun golf matches, and 338LM is for warfare.
One thing in just making a shot and shooting to kill as a sniper. A .308 (7.62X51mm) (M40A5) has a 1:12 twist using a 175 grain SBTHP or M118LR and has the stopping power. When looking at barrel life, when you have a 1:10 twist with a standard civilian rifle, the barrel wear will be different than a barrel with a 1:12 twist. Additionally, the .308 (7.62X51mm) is adopted as the standard NATO cartridge for the military (DoDIC A011). There is no choice and we snipers learn how to use it effectively, unless you are in MARSOC and use the MK13 .300 Win Mag which uses the 220gr SBTHP. The 6.5X47 is accurate and ballistically better than the .308 when shooting paper, not people. I have used both and when going to 1,000 yards, the 6.5X47 is better for accuracy in shooting paper like I said. I have shot competition as well as being a sniper. Just my own 2 cents on this. (USMC/Retired)
Ummmm... Socom just switched to 6.5 creedmor over the 308. That argument is dead 💀
Ryan Davidson Not dead in the slightest. You pick the right caliber for the mission. I’m taking 308 anything 500 in.
@@Actuary1776 You have it right Bro, "You pick the right caliber for the mission."
Holes in paper vs. Killing Bad guy Shooting at you.
Different missions, different cartridges.
I'm a .308 man, U.S.Army.
Our Brothers incountry are requesting .308's for range and knockdown.
eddieg1979 : I hope you answer this back you might be who I'm looking to visit with. I also am a former grunt Marine (G2/7) from back in the day. I'm putting together a rifle that I can get back into shooting with. I've got everything picked out except the caliber of the rifle. I want to do "some" match shooting but not sure how much, but also some coyote hunting. I have no interest in the smaller rounds like 243 and 5.56. But .308 can turn a coyote inside out if you blow the shot placement. The point is, getting a read on deciding between .308 and 6.5 creed is really hard today because you can't tell if somebody knows their shit or not. I am not at your level obviously, but did shoot expert and had a lot of time with a rifle in my hands, along with shooting competitive pistol. Do you have any thoughts based on want I'm wanting to do? Semper Fi
Ryan Socom also bought the mk23. When you don’t have to consider barrel life, 6.5 is better after the 500 yard mark.. if you do have to consider barrel life, .308 wins all day. Honestly after owning 6.5 AR10’s as well as .308s... I’d avoid a 6.5 AR10. They are a pain in the ass as far as gas regulation and pressures. That and you gotta look at your purpose in using a precision semiautomatic... it’s smarter to opt for the better inside 500 yard route.
So the cycle is going back to a .243 like it was years ago? Funny how all things come and go and come back again.
wonder when a young person will pick up a 257 Roberts and try the new bullets and powders.
JUST PROVES HOW RIDULOUS ALL THE NIT-PICKING IS.
caps lock much haha?
@@charleswittmer2477 I'm 25 and looking for a one. Already got my cases 😊
@@charleswittmer2477 A .257 ACKLEY IMPROVED. 😉👉
People have been arguing ad nauseum about ballistics since what, the 1600’s.
That's because ballistics have been evolving since they were invented.
@@IHateTH-camHandles615 Exactly , I am exited about the new 300PRC and I thought we were done with 30 cal stuff after the 6.5Creedmoor set the world on fire ! Who knew? They are all fun.
Cool vid I would like to see this with a 7mm 08
7/08 WOULD BEAT THEM ALL PLUS HAS LESS RECOIL
@@thetruth3768 6x47 and 6.5 x47 have less recoil.
Boy that's really splitting frogs hairs. The difference between a .260 remington and a 7mm-08 is insignificant.
Considering cost per round fired including ammunition costs and firearms maintenance (barrel life, etc), and the value of learning about wind drift and bullet drop compensation at long ranges, I'll stick with my "outdated" .308 thanks.
i like the 25.06 for long range shooting. my father had a 243 my 25.06 always out performed the 243. does anybody in your group shoot a 25.06?
I have been shooting for over forty years. I apprenticed under a gunsmith when I was a teen for 3 years hoping to make a career from that time. It became a serious pastime I am happy and sad to report. I served for 23 years, serving multiple tours in every corner of the world with all branches, and nations personnel. I retired earlier this year at E8 and both happy and proud to be here still today as a father, mentor and citizen. Reading through the comments, it makes me very happy to see how much great information (thank you LRSU) or bad is out there for all of us to benefit from in different ways. It makes me sad to see people argue over and convey ill feelings over a small topic such as trajectory, "rise", ballistics, gravity, etc.
I admire our Constitution and respect our 1st amendment however behavior and rhetoric exercising that right, not only here but it so many other forums, damages our collective disposition to those seeking to degrade or usurp our 2nd amendment rights. My only opinion on the below comment regarding "rise"which might be just a difference of vernacular- please pause-think about what you write and how many people will see it-When you attach an icon such as US Army, or other orgs-it brings discredit to the organization via the negative and offensive commenting whereas when it is only a person's name it only affects one person. Quiet Professionalism goes a long way.
Research and comprehension of the subject is paramount. I am not a physics expert. I am not probably an expert on anything I may have thought I was. I study, experiment, execute my craft. I make determinations based off facts(hopefully-when I have the luxury). A bullet WILL "rise" slightly leaving the muzzle-however it will NEVER rise above the axis of any barrel-unless you add wings for lift (-:-) That is a fact of physics.
www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm
Hope this is helpful-and if I offended anyone-my days of debating are over-I only have my experience and some wisdom to offer. Thank you again to Brice and LRSU for having a great channel and information to share with us.
Feteasca Alba Either you like the grapes or you must be Romanian or from Moldova-a place some of my brothers have worked with the host nation military. Dale, I can appreciate your "stolen valor" comment. I feel the same, however I fall into the 1% by your statistics...I have no obligation to prove anything to you. If my comment somehow bothered you, I apologize. I was only interested in passing on information I have obtained throughout my military career and involvement with the shooting industry and to also say, leaving negative, profane comments brings discredit to yourself and your branch when you have an avatar or icon identifying a specific military affiliation. I did not intend to "comes to these comments" and spread misinformation or negative comments. Make no mistake Sir, my service to my country is 100% verifiable. Godspeed to you Sir and your endeavors.
Feteasca Alba self employed Easy does it Dale...no one was insulting you. Actually I googled your avatar name and found it was a grape variety used for wines grown in Romania and Moldova. I was hoping for a different reply so I could ask you about your drift-boats for fly fishing as I recently taught my daughter to cast...but considering your disposition...this has to qualify as the strangest dialogue I have ever encountered. I have been respectful to you. You are not interested in reciprocation. Good luck to you.
Seamus Fischer Thank you for being one of the few reasonable people in the comments section.
Seamus Fischer great sr
Seamus Fischer thank you for your service, Sir. Also, thank you for sharing your considerable insight.
I would have liked to see how the 7mm-08 compares to the 6.5 & 6 mm family
+JP811931 With 168's, it compares pretty well but the increased bullet weight needs a bit more powder capacity to achieve the same results. To get the big BC's that 7mm offers you need to get up to the heavy end of the bullet weight spectrum. With a Berger 180 launched at 2550fps you're looking at just over 1300yrds before it goes subsonic. With a 168, just under 1300yrds at 2650fps muzzle velocity.
Stepping up case size a bit, with a .284 Winchester you can get it up to 2800fps with the 168 which will take you deep into 1500yrds+ supersonic. The 180 actually only gets around 1400 and coin from the 7mm-08 case. To go much further you need more case capacity which would end up in a magnum. As with all things, more powder = more overbore = reduced barrel life.
meccastreisand yea the reason i was asking is bc i own a 7mm'08 and was trying to find a reason to get a 6.5 or 6mm setup
JP811931
There's no need. 7mm is a fantastic long range calibre with long barrel life and plentiful choices of projectile. 6 and 6.5mm are nice but IMHO 7mm is better at everything at the price of increased recoil and powder consumption. 6mm has lower barrel life than I was ever comfy with. 6.5 is brilliant but component selection isn't quite as broad as 7mm and barrel life is marginally lower. If you're looking for a reason, "I want it, I want it, I want it!" usually works for me. I use all 3 in competition and they all work where I use em'.
+meccastreisand yea I think thats what i was looking to hear from somebody that actually competes...my 7mm-08 is a sako A7...and i was scratching my head on weather to buld a 6.5 rig and drop it in my cadex defence chassis that my 223 is in right now...but if its like u say...if 7mm-08 works...i dont mind a muzzle break...its just gonna be hard to find a nice chassis or stock for it
+JP811931 Matter of fact, right now I'm waiting on a 7mm-08 barrel to replace a .308 barrel on one of my match guns. If you can't find a chassis, glass bedding can do wonders.
Excellent video. Back here in the temperate forests of the flat land, we are lucky to see 200 yards, much less 1200 or 2000 yards. Sure love Utah though.
+Vince Resor Thanks for watching.
I KNOW. WHERE I GREW UP IN THE SOUTHEAST THE ONLY PLACE YOU COULD SEE 100 YDS WAS AT A FOOTBALL GAME
@@thetruth3768 😂😂😂
Most factory 308 rifles have a 22 inch or shorter barrel. They 168 grain match loads rarely exceed 2650 FPS. Years ago in our long range rifle class the 168 federal match loads were going subsonic at 800-900 yards and tumbling at 1000 yards. The military “long range M188” sniper ammo now uses a 175 grain bullet and allows about 1100 yards before going subsonic. Depending on where you shoot the .308 may not be able to engage the targets beyond 11 yards at all. If the match is within 1000 yards the .308 can be a fine choice. You aren’t losing any accuracy and barrel life is a strong consideration.
Thanks for the great video. I'm glad you mentioned about barrel life, most people neglect that detail.
Now you have a new 6.5 PRC .
You're handicapping the .308 bullet by using a 168 grain projectile. You should have chosen a .308 bullet of equal/similar bullet weight. Perhaps a 150 grain .308 bullet which travels at 2900-2950 fps would have been a better comparison to the other lighter weight bullets.
+TOBORE8THMAN He isn't handy capping the .308 at all. If he pick a 150gr bullet gives a BC of around.415 in reality a 168gr bullet such as an AMAX or BTHP will have a higher BC which will cause the bullet to retain velocity and energy over distance. And actually the 140gr is on the heavy side for the 6.5 caliber and the 105gr is on the heavy end of the 6mm bullet. Since he is comparing the high end of both the 6.5 and 6mm really he needs to compare the 178gr bullet vs a 168gr, but his presentation was spot on
Hornady factory loads with elevation the 150 gr bullet wins by about 2-8 inches of elevation at a given distance but at 1,050 yards the 178 bthp surpasses the 150gr bullet in elevation. 178gr bullet= 447.5 inches of elevation and th 150gr bullet= 456.3 inches
But at just 150 yards the 178gr bullet suprpasses the 150 in wid drift.
Full value wind at 10mph
308 150gr traveling 2800 fps .415 BC
150 yards 1.8 inches
200 yards 3.3 inches
300 yards 7.6 inches
400 yards 14 inches
500 yards 22.9 inches
600 yards 34.6 inches
700 yards 49.3 inches
800 yards 67.4 inches
900 yards 89.3 inches
1000 yards 114.9 inches
full value wind at 10 mph
308 178gr traveling 2600 fps .535 BC
150 yards 1.6 inches
200 yards 2.8 inches
300 yards 6.4 inches
400 yards 11.8 inches
500 yards 19.1 inches
600 yards 28.5 inches
700 yards 40.2 inches
800 yards 54.4 inches
900 yards 71.3 inches
1000 yards 91.3 inches
So in the end speed doesn't mean everything....
+TOBORE8THMAN The lighter 150 grain .308 bullets would actually perform worse than the 168 grain bullets. The 150 grain has a worse ballistic coefficient than the 168 grain. It would lose velocity much faster, drop more and drift more over the same distance as the 168 grain.
+Brandon Urbaniak Well Said
+TOBORE8THMAN
According to Ballistics Explorer the right 150 gr bullet has a significant advantage over a 168 gr BTHP. Ballistics Explorer list the BC of the 168 gr BTHP at 0.483 and a 150 gr Federal Trophy Copper with a BC of 0.469. With both zeroed at 200 yards, Ballistics Explorer lists the drop for the 168 gr BTHP at 1375 inches at 1500 yards. BE lists the drop for the 150 gr Trophy Copper at 1195" at 1500 yards.
The 150 gr actually drops 180 inches less than the 168 gr bullet at 1500 yards.
I realize one bullet is lead and one is copper, but if you were choosing bullets for maximum range shooting, would you not choose the better bullet regardless of material?
Wind drift, again according Ballistic Explorer is very nearly the same with 130" for the 168 gr and 125" for the 150 gr. So again, the lighter 150 gr has an advantage.
+Tanglerwr can you tell me where you can find 150gr Trophy Copper bullets.... and you must be rich to be shooting a premium bullet for such as target practice etc.....
243 fire ball
By my math you are wrong about the 6mm vs 6.5mm
A 105gr A-Max launched at 3000fps goes subsonic at aprox 1450yd while a 140gr A-Max 6.5 launched at only 2800fps should stay supersonic out to 1600yards, but the advantage does not end there, in a 10mph crosswind at 1,000yards the same 6mm will drift aprox 81 inches while the 6.5mm drifts only 70. For those who shoot more then just paper the 6mm only retains 454 ft/lbs at 1,000 while the 6.5mm is still delivering over 700ft/lbs and almost 40% more mass on target. Since I hunt with mine as well as long range shoot I choose the 6.5mm but mine is the superb 6.5x55 which you forgot to mention, it is a little faster then the 260 in a modern action. I have run the math with numerous different bullet makes and the 6.5mm wins in nearly every case. Yeah you could end up getting +/-100fps with either one depending on your barrel but 3000fps and 2800fps are about the norm in my experience. If someone wants the little flatter trajectory they can load a 6.5mm with the 123gr A-Max (or Lapua) to 243 speeds with a slightly better .510BC (.547 for the Lapua) and you can get that in either A-Max or SST flavor depending on your target.
I have been very pleased with the 6.5mm on deer and wild hogs, plenty of caliber/mass/momentum to inflict rapidly fatal wounds, not quite as wide wounding as a 30 caliber but plenty even for less then perfect shot placement and considerably more the a little .243 cal.
Simon Smith Yep 6.5s are my favorite all around, though I have been known to bring a 30 caliber when hunting larger hogs, not that the 6.5 ever let me down but when it comes to big pigs you cannot go wrong with a larger bullet.
Simon Smith :) yeah .45 cals are great if you are hunting limited range, and 35 calibers are superb if you want a mix of range and impact. One of my next projects will be either a 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen, not that I need another gun but just because it is a more ideal tool then the 30-06 or 300 Win Mag for hog hunting.
Simon Smith Great minds think alike :) I was thinking of a BLR because 35 caliber and lever action just seem to go hand in hand, just wish they made an oldschool Marlin 336 in 358 Win but I know the action will have issues with that pressure.
I agree that's why norma has forever made the 156 grn roundnose bullet for the 6.5 for shorter ranges.
Enigma Cipher 6mm Remington is considerably faster then you said that's probably others better
Let me save you half an hour. Outstanding ballistics due to BC. Outstanding penetration due to SD.