Who Cares About Non Marvel & DC SUPERHEROES?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2024
- Become a Patron - www.patreon.co...
Subscribe on TH-cam - th-cam.com/users/thecomicsp....
Join us on Discord: / discord
Watch us LIVE on TH-cam every:
Thursday at 6 PM EST for Pals Pulls
Saturday at 10:15 AM EST for The Comics Pals
Grab some merch here: streamlabs.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PodBean: thecomicspals....
Twitter: / thecomicspals
Instagram: / thecomicspals
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pals:
Sean: / seanssoapbox
Tyler: @TheTylerOlson on X, Threads, BlueSky, and Instagram
Cale: Carrier Pigeon or Sending Stone
Marco: / mrmarcoanimoto
I DO!! Hellboy has been my jam for almost 10 years now. And I'm not jumping off the train anytime soon. Support your indie titles everyone!! 🙏
Even though INVINCIBLE and THE BOYS were interesting manifestations of the “superhero team,” certain characters ultimately remind you of OTHER characters.
How can we not look at OmniMan and Homelander as perverted versions of Superman? They would have been sued out of existence if they came out in the 40s (like Captain Marvel).
INVINCIBLE had the “justice league” controlled by the government: Guardians of the Globe.
THE BOYS has the “justice league” controlled by a corporation: The Seven.
Very true! Those comics rely on the existence of and the reader having a familiarity with superheroes to work.
Here's my argument: There's room for the NFL and College Football. Yeah, DC and Marvel will always be the NFL but there's room for college football (Massive-Verse) to exist. Plus, DC and Marvel have become a bit more convoluted in terms of interconnected books, so I like that the Massive-Verse is connected, but not confusingly so. The Massive-Verse books have significantly less crossovers/events/etc. I think the Massive-Verse does enough different to be viable but agree that a non-big 2 Superhero book NEEDS to do something different.
Absolutely valid! I know that the Massive stuff is popular and I'm glad for that. It just isn't for me for the reasons I stated in the video, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether it should exist or not (it definitely should).
@TheComicsPals oh I hear you! To be honest, I sent that comment with a few minutes left in the video and immediately after I posted it, Sean said that bit about how superhero books should do enough to differentiate themselves! Great video, guys, keep it up.
Haha this is Sean! Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the conversation.
@@TheComicsPals I figured but didn't want to assume!
I love the Valiant and Dark Horse heroes. I love heroes. Doesnt matter the company
Yes. They should exist, and people do care. It keeps the big 2 on their toes, I mean, The Boys is one of the biggest shows in the world. Invicible is great. The show was iconic. Walking Dead while not being a hero comic, it still was a massive comic success. Do I need to mention how massive the show was during the early 2010s? Spawn, my dad knows who spawn is, and he never has seen the move or read the comics. TMNT? An incredibly popular satire superhero franchise that spawned from comics? Saga? Transformers? Hellboy? Even though those three aren't "Superheroes" in the traditional sense, their still considered hero comics in a way. Hell, even Brian Pulido's Lady Death, or Witchblade? Those are always important. It makes the big 2 double take and say hey what's going on over here? Great discussion.
Agreed. The landscape of comics is a lot worse without the properties you listed.
You really need to give Valiant a shot. From 2012 - 2017, Valiant had the best superhero books on the stands. They weren’t copying the Big 2 at all. They were telling fresh stories with characters that grew and actually developed (something we don’t see at the Big 2)
I challenge any superhero fan to read Venditti’s X-O Manowar or Kindt’s Rai and not enjoy it. Rai is actually a great comic to try. It’s only 12 issues plus a 4-issue mini set 2,000 years in the future, so it only loosely fits into continuity. And it’s getting a thick tpb reprint. Try it; thank me later 😉
I couldn’t be more excited for Valiant Resurgence. If we can get comics even half as good as they were before the 2018 implosion, we’ll all be very lucky.
Hey! I really appreciate your enthusiasm. It's awesome that you enjoy Valiant so much, and I'm glad you're sticking up for them. That inspires me to want to give something of theirs a chance. Can you pitch X-O Manowar to me? You don't have to, but I would love to get a feel on it from a fan's perspective, not just a Wikipedia article.
@@TheComicsPals At its surface, X-O Manowar likely seems like an Iron Man ripoff. “Guy in advanced suit who fights bad guys.” But the far more interesting part of the story is how Aric finds a place for himself and his people in our 21st century world.
He’s a 5th century Visigoth, fighting against Roman oppression, until he and his people are abducted by aliens and turned into slaves. He escapes, finds a living battle suit not meant for him, frees his people and returns to earth, only to find it’s now 2012. He doesn’t have a home or a country, and all he knows is war. So he takes on the world (literally) to make a home for himself and those he leads.
Then there’s the mystery of the suit. What is it? Who made it? And who else out there wants it for themselves?
Big action, great political stories, and a very interesting (and very flawed) protagonist.
Thank you! Great pitch.
I think the Massive-Verse stuff is an example of why I can prefer indie superhero books. They’re not cyclical, and that’s what ruins the big 2 books for me so often. While I go back and read old Marvel and DC big deaths never hit because I know they won’t last. With Radiant Black, Dead Lucky, and (my favorite) Rogue Sun they all take pretty big swings in storytelling. They’re doing things really well. They have certain advantages like being able to kill characters, have a real ending, and one creator who will write that book.
The biggest issue with them is getting people to buy in I think. I reading those books and Marvel and DC, I would not even try another indie superhero book right now. Especially when Marvel and DC are now doing their own alternate takes as well
Right. The market for that is super saturated. Massive-verse gets a lot of love and I'm all for that! Just wasn't really my thing.
Invincible and radiant black are two of my favorite superhero comics of all time
That's awesome!
What is you guys thoughts on the Energon Universe? I think the pacing is different than a lot of other connected universes. It doesn't treat everything like an event, while each singular issue is an event in the universe.
I think that's the closest I've come to being a follower of the overall story, even if we haven't gotten a large connector story yet.
Energon Universe is awesome! We've reviewed a lot of their books and have largely enjoyed it all. It feels fresh and exciting and each book is unique enough to justify its existence.
None of the Ghost Machine books feel like superhero comics to me either....
I absolutely understand your critiques of Radiant Black.
However it and Power Rangers are my favorite Non Big 2 supers books hands down. The split timeline thing happening in Radiant Black is also one of the coolest things I've seen in a comic in a while.
As always, very well articulated y'all!
I definitely make space for the idea that I’m missing something with Radiant Black, but I just couldn’t stay invested. We read through the first couple of arcs but I ultimately had to tap out. Maybe I’ll find a way back into it down the line. I’m glad you like it though!
I think there is room for all other superhero universes anyone might want and I think they can all offer different things. I find myself not differentiating too much to be honest. I think that indie superhero comics offer something pretty meaningful, usually, and that would be a complete story with an end. This is immensely valuable for newer fans.
Great episode as always. Thanks guys!
Thank you so much!
I love Radiant Black and the Spawn Universe. I don't care what universe the superhero resides in. I love good stories.
For me, if your comic is going to be A commentary or A breakdown on the Superhero Genre, then It’s A instant skip. It always feels like these indie hero’s are trying to reinvent something but it just becomes edgy and boring.
I can definitely see that as well. The deconstruction of superhero comics thing has been done extremely well by Watchmen and I kind of don't need that again.
"its a deconstruction"
>looks inside
>its contempt for the genre
literally every time
Agree. I avoid “de-construction” like a plague. There is far too many and they all boil down to “who watches the watchmen”
Valiant Comics doesn't have enough IPS to be a complete universe. There are so many kinds of IPS you need 2 have a universe and they are missing many/many key IPS needed for a true superhero universe.
Marvel and DC do not want other Super-Hero Universes to become successful so that is why there is so many books and so many "clones" of characters in their universe. I think you are right that any body that wants to create a super-hero universe has to have something different. Invincible let Mark age and grow up and have meaningful deaths and it made it special but that was a different comic market. The only place I could see a new Universe of Super-hero comics might be successful is outside the direct market.
I really wonder what the interest would be like if Robert Kirkman and Ryan Ottley never ended Invincible. What if it had just continued on, and the show drops. Would people care about the book?
@@TheComicsPals Let me pose another question. When the next season drops, how good would sales be on a new Launch of an Invincibles series?
The energon universe is making it happen imo
Most definitely, IMO their stuff has been largely all hits.
Between comics, tv shows, movies, and video games I feel like I get my fill of superheroes just from Marvel and DC. I really rely on other publishers to give me a greater variety in my media consumption diet.
Yeah that's where I'm at too. Marvel & DC's stuff for the most part hits me in a very specific way that I'm just not looking for from anything else. I specifically buy non big 2 to get things the big 2 WON'T do.
@@TheElectricCity DC published plenty of non superhero comics through vertigo and black label
@@mttylerdurden9 I think you’re missing the point here. It’s not relevant that DC publishes non-superhero comics as well because we’re talking about the demand for superhero comics published by non-Big Two publishers. You’ve gotten caught up on the wrong part of my earlier comment…”I rely on other publishers to provide other genres” because I don’t need superheroes from them, not because I refuse to read non-superhero books from Marvel and DC.
Unfortunately I’ve invested in a few indie superheroes that never broke the two year mark. However at present I get more indie superheroes than Marvel/DC because the stakes matter. A recent fight in Radiant Black shocked me, in a way a Marvel fight can’t.
My Hero Academia.
I think you need to reread Radiant Black. It has a lot of inventive storytelling. A recent Marvel issue just copied it. Radiant Black is doing something I haven’t seen done at Marvel and DC for a long time.
There are small issues, with personal drama and big issues with universal stakes.
Seems like the only superhero universe you didn't mention is the one from Archie comics lol
The Shield, The Hood, The Fly, The Crusaders ,etc. And from what I've read of them, you're not missing anything.
I'm not a big super hero or team book fan to begin with. My favorite characters were always batman, the Question and Wolverine which for me are made worse when they go into those areas😮
Star wars comics i typicaslly stay seay from because that universe is too dense for me. But Marvel since 1961 and DC since 1985 i can deal with.
Radiant black yniverse i found poorly written and juvenile. Definitely aimed at a younger than 39 year old me.
There's definitely ways to do a big superhero universe that does hit & feels fresh but I think you guys are dead on that you can't come in aping off of DC & Marvel. And I'm saying that as someone who actually likes Valiant characters, from when they were firing on all cylinders, but multiple creative teams, events, crossover events....that doesn't work. The best differentiators for Indie Universes are:
One creative team/vision.
unique aesthetic. (irrespective if it's intentional homage or intentionally not)
Death sticks.
Have a definitive ending.
If you don't have at least two of those your universe is going to flounder no matter where it exists outside Marvel & DC and I mean in publishing format & geographically.
How do you feel then about something like Energon? Definitely not superheroes, but a shared universe where it's intended for characters to cross over. Or the Radiant Black universe, which breaks several of your criteria?
@@TheComicsPals Energon I feel gets by on nostalgia. For many GI Joe, Transformers, Turtles etc are as, or possibly more, recognizable than DC/Marvel characters. So seeing Energon interact gives that dopamine. Radiant Black, haven't been paying attention to, but it's got a unique aesthetic & it is Kyle Higgins vision, at least from what I know. So that's the bare minimum pass imo.
Most indie Superhero books suck, Marvel and DC is the norm for the superhero genre.
The problem with indie superhero books:
-No wide shared universe
-Villains often suck
-Hero is often times a parody or ripoff of DC and Marvel heroes
-The story arcs often are not good
The only indie Superhero comics I liked where:
-James O'Barr The Crow (which isn't really much of a superhero book)
-TMNT
That's about it
Spawn, Savage dragon,Radiant black, rouge sun, local man, Astro City, invincible, vanish , Hunter killer,witchblade, blood Squad 7, dynamo 5, Free agents, Hellboy, the Valiant universe,and inferno girl red would say otherwise.
It's just really tough to play in that space given how iconic Marvel & DC's heroes (and villains) are. Even a person who isn't meaning to is gonna struggle not to copy some elements from the big 2, and you can't be that familiarity and brand power.
@mttylerdurden9 All of those heroes are lame, and most fit within my description.
Invincible is OK, it gained popularity after the show came out, but at the end of the day, it is a ripoff of Superboy/Superman and the Justice League.
Spawn is cool for art factor, but like many of those Image comics from the 1990s, they lack story, especially Spawn. 90% of his comic is him saving random person, then going back to mope in an alleyway with no story progression.
Many of those comics listed also have terrible villains. Savage Dragons main villain is a guy with 90s metallic pouch design named "Overlord" lmfao 💀
These aren't good stories, they are good meme comics or comics to read if you're bored, but nothing I would get emotionally attached to like I would for something like a Spiderman or Batman comic.
Marvel and DC are the heavyweight champions of comic book superheroes.
It’s time for competitors to DC/MARVEL to NOT create superheroes. Do something that we haven’t seen DC/MARVEL do before. How about a story that goes 50-70 issues and ENDS, like Brian K. Vaughn stuff.
1) NO superhero “universes,” with spin-offs.
2) NO superheroes.
Image, Dark horse, boom studios, idw, oni press and dynamite are doing plenty of non superhero comics
I think we get a ton of non superhero books outside the big 2.
I miss the Vertigo style 60 issues series would make a come back.
Jeff Lemire is doing a forty issue run with Minor Arcana so I’m going to give that a try.