@@SCP3143. If I'm not mistaken, Epicyon had paws that were to some extent similar to those of a bear, in theory it is the only large canid that could hold objects with its paws. Since it is theorized that they used it at some level to hold their prey. But there is a lack of depth to confirm this hypothesis or not.
The Canadian Timber Wolf, also known as the Mackenzie Valley Wolf or the Northwestern Wolf is recognized as the largest wolf in the world. Weighing up to an astonishing 175 pounds (79.4 kg) and measuring up to 7 feet (213 cm) in length. It is a subspecies of Grey Wolf
My friend had a Timber wolf that weighed 220 lbs. Of course it also laid in front of an ice chest full of dog food and would eat for like 15 minutes. It was obese for a wolf. One time we put shorts and a Tshirt on it, it went into the road and started howling right when the animal control officer starts driving up. He laughed so hard, then it shit its shorts, he laughed even harder and drove off saying your on your own.
Wood Buffalo Park, Northern AB has the largest wolves in an isolated area. They’re specialized to hunting bison in the wooded areas and MASSIVE. Wolves outside the park, while still huge (especially if from the park) but further away they get smaller.
Many of these records are reports or are kept in zoos, where they usually get even bigger. The genus canis in general for many years there has been no record in nature of such large specimens. Today the greatest find in Nature is the Chrysocyon brachyurus Maned Wolf from Brazil, they are very rare to be seen, but huge, already being seen Specimens measuring 1.90 m (height) are more than once found in nature, and there are barely any specimens in captivity. Even if caught for treatment, they are then released into the Brazilian savannah. People tend to forget about him since he is the only one of his kind, but he is a Canis
@@saragates9890Also, weren’t humans shorter during those prehistoric times? 6’0 tall men with skinny frames are not good builds for survival out in the wilds and freezing cold. Early humans were much stronger and stockier.
Why does the map at 0:57 indicate South America with no canids? Maned Wolves, Bush Dogs, Short-eared Dogs, and seven species of fox call South America home.
@@KaiserToons the narrator was discussing the family Canidae and the map includes graphics for the African hunting dog (genus Lycaon). So, no. Just a big boo-boo.
@@JohnDrummondPhoto true.... but the map he was showing only appears to correlate to Canina, a subtribe of canidae. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canina_(subtribe) so maybe when he was doing research he grabbed the Canina distribution instead of a general Canidae distribution map? On a side note, today I learned the timber wolf and red wolf are not sub species of the grey wolf. :)
You otter do a video on Enhydriodon. The giant otter, Enhydriodon, is the largest known mustelid to ever exist, weighing around 440 lb (200 kg) and measuring over 9.8 ft (3 m) in length. They lived at the time of Australopithecus.
Jesus Christ, a lion sized mustelid, no predators today would stand a chance. I put my money on a mustelid any day, if they fight an animal their own size or even bigger. Unless it’s a 700+kg bear
This channel uses the best thumbnails! The pictures used to depict species are always high quality & reminiscent of hand drawn art back in books in the 70's. Amazing effort!
FYI: mountain lions range considerably east of the orange on your map. They are more and more common all across Oklahoma to Arkansas and Texas. I've seen them myself and my family members no longer hunt alone after a petite aunt realized she was being stalked. Great channel. Subscribed.
I agree. We have caught a few on trail cams on the northern edge of Lake Sam Rayburn in deep East Texas. Locals have sworn to see them back into the 1990’s but we finally started getting pictures around 2015.
@@cheeksfadays6322 I first saw one in 1979 or '80 in a heavily wooded area NNE of OKC. By 2000 my family in southeast Oklahoma were seeing them as well as more sign of bears. Now, 20 years later, they are pulling alligators out of the lakes down there. (I don't camp out any more.)
I wanna see them fight lions, good luck lion fighting a 16,000 newton dog that can weight the same amount of pounds as you. You’re basically fighting a crocodile dog.
@@S.F157the lion on average weighs much more than what the Epicyon Haydeni did. The 370 pound one was the largest estimated size of Epicyon Haydeni, most individuals weighed much less than that. And the largest lions weigh way more than 370 pounds. And having a huge jaw bite force alone wouldn't be enough regardless, the lions have claws to it's advantage and would most likely be quicker and more agile than the E.H, not to mention stronger...
@@harsha1989able actually if you check out the Validus (large Haydeni Specimens) they weighted around 181kg or more so basically 400Ib pounds. They were evolutionarily getting bigger if you check their fossil record. They were also as robust as a grizzly bear, which is pretty robust. They were not built like average canids (Modern Canines). These were dogs that were built like big cats. Also if your jaws can produce a bite force as strong as a saltwater crocodile, that’s something to be fearful of as another predator since if you get bit you can risk injury, which will decrease your survival. A 100 pound weight advantage doesn’t matter to an Epicyon Haydeni, these things fought carnivores far more dangerous than modern lions like Amphimachairodus or Huracan which were more dangerous competitors of Epicyon. The Borophagus were also another competitor that could have dominated Epicyons over carcasses at times like modern hyenas.
What do you call an Epicyon with a PhD in Paleontology? "Dr. Bark," the expert on prehistoric bones, who believes every dig site is just a game of fetch waiting to happen. 🤭
Imagine these fighting massive prehistoric WOLVERINES! The Megalitis ferrox is another supersized mammal that lived over 5 million years ago during the Miocene Epic and weighed up to 264 pounds, albeit in Africa.
This animal (and other large, derived borophagines) was long assumed to be a scavenger, based on the assumption that hyenas were scavengers; obviously, hyenas are actually predators, and Epicyon is now widely recognized as such as well. However, this doesn't mean the popular view of this animal meets the fossil data. Large borophagines are often assumed to have been ambush predators due to their size and the fact they supposedly had grappling limbs, part of the reason the assumption of them being outcompeted by cats took hold, However, while earlier large borophagines like Aelurodon did have some grappling capability, later ones like Epicyon did not. Their forelimbs were more flexible and mobile than that of canine canids or hyenas, but nowhere near as flexible or mobile as the grappling forelimbs of cats or bears, and their feet are relatively small and have small, blunt claws for running. And while Epicyon was bigger than any other canid, it still wasn't the 170kg monster it was often assumed to be, and other large borophagines were more in line with the sizes of large, cursorial predatory canids alive today, meaning that they wouldn't have been too big to run down prey (not to mention that bears are even less suited to running and can move terrifyingly fast for a surprising distance). Therefore, it's actually more likely that derived borophagines like Epicyon were pursuit predators, relying on their jaws alone to pull large prey to the ground. The dying days of the late miocene brought an end to Epicyon and the dominance of borophagines, as the climate became cooler still. But one derived borophagine- Borophagus Diversidens-managed to squeeze through, and remained successful throughout the next epoch, the Pliocene.
Well, it did share its habbitat with the biggest bear-dog species ever, Amphicyon ingens, which was not just larger than it, but much, MUCH larger, the size of a grizzly bear... While it was capable to hunt, certainly, its ability to crush bones certainly came in handhy, as it could at least part of the time scavenge the remains of the Amphicyon kills for the nutritional bone marrow that bear-dogs could not access.
@@beastmaster0934 they did, Borophagus Diversidens (last species) was about the size of a large spotted hyena and could reach maxes of up to 200Ib+. They lived through the early Pliocene until 1.8 Million years ago when their extinction arrived.
Don't the lion members of a pride already do that today? Members cooperate with each other & strategize during a hunt. They use a chaser lion or two to cause chaos & confusion in the herd to recognize & isolate the weakest member.
This dog was no bigger than a jaguar stop this BS big cats have always been bigger than dogs. Bigger bone structure bigger muscles. If this dog was the size of a lion they would have been ambush predators and lack stamina to chase like wolves.
@@Abdi-libaax Epicyons can actually reach weights of 400Ibs or more for the Validus Specimens. Also Epicyons were robust carnivores, as robust as a bear! Epicyons were likely Ambush predators as a 400+ plus canid is not chasing down any prey but having ambush hunting tactics like Lions.
Coyotes certainly do hunt in packs where I live, western NC, between Charlotte and Asheville. Within the last 25 yrs they have driven native foxes, red and grey into the margins and whereas they were silent here, we now hear the exact vocalizations that I lived with on the Idaho/Oregon border. We use mules and donkeys as guard animals for our horses, sheep, cattle etc.
It would never be domesticated. It's more like a hyena and a wolf. It would just be a wild animal, but both could be tamed under the right situation, but it will never be your pet. You can handle them, but you will never own them
@@Mikey-wf9pyyou could definitely domesticate ts it’s a dog if you get one when it’s a baby ur going to be fine it’s literally like the first dog I was thinking about riding ts like a 350 pound dog probably toping 25mph for short periods on time
0:20 Thanks for the map of big cat habitat ranges! I had no idea that leopards were so widespread, especially in China. And I had no idea that the range of lions is so horribly limited. Back in Roman times, they were all the way up into north Africa and the Mideast. Finally, I had no idea that pumas were so widespread, all the way down into Brazil, Chile, and Argentina.
The map might be inaccurate when it comes to leopards at the very least. Leopard distribution in India is certainly more than what the map shows and while China historically might have had that distribution shown on the map, today they have only around 400 leopards.
I feel like Europe needs to watch out on their escapee big cats from zoos and old travelling circuses, apparently we have some spotted in UK, France, Germany, Switzerland and more.
The sequence where you list the animals Latin names and show pictures of the creatures is very helpful. Showing the art and drawings of the creatures helps me to understand and remember them. My wife said the same thing. It makes the different animals in the videos very interesting and easy to remember.
If only the American Lion and Epicyon Haydeni were around at the same time period? Would they compete against each other? If so, their battles would be legendary.
They competed against a similar size machairodont named “Amphimachairodus” which was a competitor of Epicyon. They were similar enough to an American Lion to basically be a counterpart of them but from the Miocene. So a battle between the two would be not so one sided as Epicyon were robust and built like bears. Even Tigers have hard time killing Sloth Bears/Sun Bears. Imagine a 400+ 16,000 Newton Bone Crushing Dog as you nemesis? Not something I would want to come face to face with. Don’t believe me? Look up how wide their skull is.
@@S.F157bigger in size are the only way for any dog species to defeat any cat/big cat species. if the dog were smaller or at the same size as the cat/big cat, the dog wouldn’t stand a chance at all. pound for pound any cat/big cat would easily defeat a dog. cat/big cat are built different. their body were miles better than a dog. they have better muscle composition, they are more agile, has faster reaction time, run faster, jump longer and higher. they also has the deadliest killing techniques in animal kingdom which is the neck bite. before the epicyon even have the chance to use that bite force, the mountain lion were already bite the epicyon neck😂
@@m.a.i7324 Epicyons were the dominate carnivores of their time in the late Miocene so technically we can say they were pretty strong to be the dominate carnivores. American lion only has a bite force newtons of 4,450 while Epicyon has 4x the newtons at 16,000. So even if the American Lion weighs more, is it worth the trouble getting a bite by a 16,000 newton dog? Short-Faced bears were the dominate carnivores of late Pleistocene NA, so the American Lion was a Carnivore but weren’t the most dominant of its environment. Sure Lion is more robust than Hyena Dog but Epicyon were as robust as Grizzly Bears which is what American Lion Robustility is compared to.
@@S.F157 You act like epicyon were the only carnivore that dominate in miocine duh. In fact there’s are multiple carnivore that dominate in miocine and one of them are a saber tooth cat called nimravids. Nimravids are only the same size of modern jaguar and mountain lions which is smaller than epicyon. Both nimravids and epicyon lived at the same place which is in north america. If you look at our modern day animal kingdom, the only place that a dog can dominate the area if there are no presence of a big cat. Nimravids are smaller, both of them lived in the same place but nimravids also can dominate literally shows how strong a cat is. The only reason epicyon are one of the dominant carnivores in miocine were because in this period there are not so many big cat species and the big cat species were also smaller. Back to our epicyon vs American lion topic, max weight that an epicyon can reach were only 170 kg and max weight of American lion were 250 kg. As i said in my earlier comment, the only way that a dog can defeat any cat are if the dog were bigger which in this case American lion are way bigger. Cats are way faster than a dog dude that dog bite force is no use when the neck of the epicyon already get bitten by american lion.
@@m.a.i7324 false false and more false. Nimravids were around when Epicyon was the dominate carnivore but not all Nimravids were small. Amphimachairodus (Machairodont) & Barbourofelis (Nimravidae) were large feliforms and both were larger than Epicyons at their maxes, but Epicyon still coexisted with them. The reason is because they (Epicyons) were dominant carnivores. Epicyons reached maxes of 181.44kg (400Ib) at their maxes if we include the Validus specimens (Epicyons that grew bigger over time). They were evolving to get larger before their extinction, showing their dominance. With a strong bite force I don’t think most carnivores would bother with this fella. When it comes to most canids compared to large Felids, felids tend to be more robust. But Epicyon was a whole different kind of canid, big, strong bite force, robust, it was ambush predator (indicating it was probably too heavy to run after prey; the Haydeni species at least).
If we manage to create exponentially large dogs or fighting machines like fighting dogs. Imagine what would happen if humanity used artificial selection on a giant canid. Imagine a guard dog made from Epicyon. Taking into account that dogs have managed to develop a better bite than wolves in some cases, we would also be creating a guard machine.
Masstifs can get around 230lbs(105kg). So on avg the larger specimens can get 20-65% larger. The largest dog in history was a 343lbs (155kg) English mastiff. Makeing them around the same size as the largest dog in modern history with a capableity to grow much larger.
09:41 what the heck is that scorpion mosquito hybrid?
8 หลายเดือนก่อน
Came to the comments for this. Number one: it's not a vertebrate Number two: WTF is it!!! I've watched a lot of nature documentaries and tons of TH-cam nature documentaries in my 50 years, still clueless. Maybe it's an AI generated creature.
Another awesome video. Just discorved your channel, and I'm loving it. Can you at some point do a video about Jaguars and Leopards, two of my favourite big cat species.
I have a spec evo project called the “Alternate Pleistocene”. Basically, due to various differences (too many to thoroughly explain here), a few lineages from as far back as the middle Miocene persist into modern times in varying capacities, and Borophagines are one of these lineages. Their common name is “Warg” after the ferocious beasts in the world of Middle Earth. And there are plenty of members of this subfamily, including the mighty Epicyon, or “Giant Warg”, one of the apex predators of the Great Plains, which are more like a semi-arid savanna in this timeline.
It's not for nothing that we got along with canids so well. They may never have been terrifying monsters on their own, but they quickly understood that team work open more doors than it close. Their story is the same as our, you live alone as a prey, or become a predator with your pack
Interesting vid....This was something I always wondered about when I was a kid. I wondered why the biggest dog (the wolf) was comparable in size to leopards, and how come there were no dog counterparts (size wise) to jaguars, lions and tigers. Of course, none of the books I had back then mentioned Epicyon, or, if they did, no mention of its size was made. And back then, lots of things weren't common knowledge, even to those like me who had such interests. No one knew what a velociraptor was, much less Epicyon!
Isn’t a Saint Bernard bigger than a wolf? Some of them look comparable to lions in size 😮 though I think that’s not natural it probably required selective breeding
Tigers and lions would look almost the same if we found their skeletons and didn't know the animal, yet one is a pack hunter and the other isn't, so I really find the reasons you give for them being pack hunters based on other canines to be quite weak.
IMHO, they seem more fit to be robbers/scavengers. Not being able to run their prey down, they could drive smaller hunters off their prey and they could eat larger dead animals than any others.
I see this lifestyle being suggested all the time for extinct predators and yet if it made so much sense why are there almost no specialized robbers among large predators today? I can only think of one that actually obtains a large percentage of its meat this way, the brown hyena. Other that that, all other predators steal other animals' kills when they can do so but it's not a reliable source of food and if they couldn't catch their own food they would starve.
@@edmondantes4338 When so many of the animals were mega fauna, big enough to hold off predators as long as the animal was healthy, there would be a supply of bodies to scavenge when they died. Being bigger and stronger than the lighter predators, they could not only bite open the hides of the mega fauna, but also with superior jaws and teeth make use of the large bones of the mega fauna, getting more out of the carcass than any other scavenger, which would limit the amount of hunting it would have to do. It can be determined that it could hunt when needed, but taking the path of least resistance, it would prefer robbing/savaging if the opportunity arose.
So yes grey wolfs are the largest wild canid. But there have been 300 hundred plus lb dogs. Dogs are living canids and we are breeding them larger every day. 200 to 343 is max dog weight right now with zorba being the biggest dog in history 8feet 3 inches in length and 343 lbs he was an old english mastiff
However, mass alone doesn't say much. North American Grey wolves have larger skulls and stronger jaws, plus have long, strong, narrowly placed limbs with larger paws, which are more useful for almost anything than the boxy body shape with short, stuff limbs and smaller paws humans bred to most dogs.
Video idea: list the most successfully reigning animals based on millions of years within the fossil record. Perhaps separate videos for predators and prey. I think this would further broaden our perspectives on how truly successful these animals are. The Epicyon and Barinasuchus for example reigned for quite a bit, while many popular and perhaps overrated theropods reigned for much shorter. Allosaurus did quite well for a theropod. Many more discussions can be made by analyzing these statistics, though I understand it is difficult to get reliable results based on the fossil record. What kind of predators reigned longest? Are there any common traits between them (pack hunting, scavenging, size, etc.)? Do certain families have longer success rates (Canidae vs Felidae etc.)? List of potential video topics can go on and on from there!
It's a wonder that breeders havent been able to create a mega dog that can run like wind at 250-300 pounds. How you could control a huge dog out for a walk is another wonder
Man, I saw a show years ago that broke down how wolves came to rival big cats as sucessful predators. It was excellent, and I've never been able to find it. It described how pack hunting worked and how it allowed them to compete despite size and tooth "disadvantage" (when compared to cats).
wouldn't it be awesome if we could know what these animals sounded like!?!! For example the hyena just imagine only ever finding their bones we wouldn't be able to tell that they make a squeely noise and yip like they do, they don't bark but look like they might. I think it would be so cool if we were able to know what some of the extinct animals did to communicate.
The more you read and dive deep into understanding Dogs (Canidae) you figure their Feliform counterparts aren't Felids themselves but rather Hyenas, Both are large predators which had subfamilies built for more Cursorial life or large Bone crushers and they have a similar body plan so much so that laypeople need to be informed Hyenas are closer to Cats than then are to Dogs, and in the end Canids through Caninae perfected and now have completely taken over the cursorial stamina freak niche and Hyenas took over the bonecrushing tough guys. Cats meanwhile seem to be more of a Bear counterpart if we compare Caniformia and Feliformia.
Mastiffs are actually recorded as being bigger than Epicyon Haydeni. Specifically English and Tibetan Mastiffs. So the largest canines to ever live are still alive.
I've been fascinated by dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals from I was a child. Scientist can only speculate what these creatures ate, how they hunted and which modern day animal they are related to with the help of fossils and comparing those fossils to modern day animals. Mystery these creatures provide makes us keep begging for more and we will never get bored.
It's terrifying that its bite force was similar to an Alligator.
Yea I work with some pretty big dogs everyday and you have to be careful. Bite is always worse.
Considering their teeth, it's pretty obvious that they could straight up rip limbs off with one bite
Not to mention being SHOULDER HIGH to Danny Devito!
@@megawl2086They didn't have retractable claws so I guess their deadly jaws made up for it
@@SCP3143. If I'm not mistaken, Epicyon had paws that were to some extent similar to those of a bear, in theory it is the only large canid that could hold objects with its paws. Since it is theorized that they used it at some level to hold their prey. But there is a lack of depth to confirm this hypothesis or not.
Who's a good boy. You throw a stick and it brings a tree back.
My German Shepherd does that, not just a limb but the whole damn tree.
it brings a lion back 😂
@@emiliospowerballer1441 It's not killing a lion lmao
or Volkswagen beetle
😂😂😂
Its me, im the big dawg
lol
lol
Bro is NOT him😭🙏🏾
Yes you are
Big stepper
The Canadian Timber Wolf, also known as the Mackenzie Valley Wolf or the Northwestern Wolf is recognized as the largest wolf in the world. Weighing up to an astonishing 175 pounds (79.4 kg) and measuring up to 7 feet (213 cm) in length. It is a subspecies of Grey Wolf
My friend had a Timber wolf that weighed 220 lbs. Of course it also laid in front of an ice chest full of dog food and would eat for like 15 minutes. It was obese for a wolf. One time we put shorts and a Tshirt on it, it went into the road and started howling right when the animal control officer starts driving up. He laughed so hard, then it shit its shorts, he laughed even harder and drove off saying your on your own.
It's interesting when he's not even the gray wolf subspecies in the story.
Wood Buffalo Park, Northern AB has the largest wolves in an isolated area. They’re specialized to hunting bison in the wooded areas and MASSIVE. Wolves outside the park, while still huge (especially if from the park) but further away they get smaller.
Many of these records are reports or are kept in zoos, where they usually get even bigger. The genus canis in general for many years there has been no record in nature of such large specimens. Today the greatest find in Nature is the Chrysocyon brachyurus Maned Wolf from Brazil, they are very rare to be seen, but huge, already being seen Specimens measuring 1.90 m (height) are more than once found in nature, and there are barely any specimens in captivity. Even if caught for treatment, they are then released into the Brazilian savannah. People tend to forget about him since he is the only one of his kind, but he is a Canis
@@wanderingspider8988captive animals don't count
Danny Devito should be the size comparison in EVERY text book
I vote for Frodo Baggins.
they should at least stop using 6' skinny men as the standard comparison, shorter models would make things look so much cooler.
@@saragates9890Also, weren’t humans shorter during those prehistoric times? 6’0 tall men with skinny frames are not good builds for survival out in the wilds and freezing cold. Early humans were much stronger and stockier.
@@MrLeiduowennot a real person
You can't be Epicyon without being EPIC !!!
th-cam.com/video/fe75Gnv28sU/w-d-xo.html
Why does the map at 0:57 indicate South America with no canids? Maned Wolves, Bush Dogs, Short-eared Dogs, and seven species of fox call South America home.
Same with Australia, DINGOS !!!
@@liamcarter4818 Not a native animal. Arrived some 6000 years ago thanks to humans.
I guess it just shows the Canis genus?
@@KaiserToons the narrator was discussing the family Canidae and the map includes graphics for the African hunting dog (genus Lycaon). So, no. Just a big boo-boo.
@@JohnDrummondPhoto true.... but the map he was showing only appears to correlate to Canina, a subtribe of canidae. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canina_(subtribe) so maybe when he was doing research he grabbed the Canina distribution instead of a general Canidae distribution map?
On a side note, today I learned the timber wolf and red wolf are not sub species of the grey wolf. :)
You otter do a video on Enhydriodon. The giant otter, Enhydriodon, is the largest known mustelid to ever exist, weighing around 440 lb (200 kg) and measuring over 9.8 ft (3 m) in length. They lived at the time of Australopithecus.
Jesus Christ, a lion sized mustelid, no predators today would stand a chance. I put my money on a mustelid any day, if they fight an animal their own size or even bigger. Unless it’s a 700+kg bear
@@McKurdi right?!
@@McKurdieven a 700 kg bear would bleed out
@@McKurdiif there are lions and hyenas today in Africa and not anymore this giant mustelids means that he didn't stand a chance against them...
@@titfortat5727 Nonsense. Most megafuana went extinct due to climate change or competition with or predation by humans.
This channel uses the best thumbnails! The pictures used to depict species are always high quality & reminiscent of hand drawn art back in books in the 70's. Amazing effort!
I remember being in detention back in the day and seeing all the hand drawn dinosaurs and ice age animals in those old books
I disagree. @3:40 Whoever made this diagram has the silhouette of a man who is around 1m (3ft) tall next to some really small epicyon.
FYI: mountain lions range considerably east of the orange on your map. They are more and more common all across Oklahoma to Arkansas and Texas. I've seen them myself and my family members no longer hunt alone after a petite aunt realized she was being stalked.
Great channel. Subscribed.
I agree. We have caught a few on trail cams on the northern edge of Lake Sam Rayburn in deep East Texas. Locals have sworn to see them back into the 1990’s but we finally started getting pictures around 2015.
@@cheeksfadays6322 I first saw one in 1979 or '80 in a heavily wooded area NNE of OKC. By 2000 my family in southeast Oklahoma were seeing them as well as more sign of bears. Now, 20 years later, they are pulling alligators out of the lakes down there. (I don't camp out any more.)
Periodic reports in Michigan's UP.
I've lived in Oklahoma most of my life and never seen any cougars. I never saw any when I lived in Colorado, Arizona, or Washington, either.
have them in ontario, canada as well.
That's not a dog...
*THAT'S A DAWG*
😂
Epicyon would have been a spectacular sight to see if it were alive again
I would say a epic sight to see lol.
I wanna see them fight lions, good luck lion fighting a 16,000 newton dog that can weight the same amount of pounds as you. You’re basically fighting a crocodile dog.
@@S.F157 I'd like to know the outcome without them actually having to fight.
@@S.F157the lion on average weighs much more than what the Epicyon Haydeni did. The 370 pound one was the largest estimated size of Epicyon Haydeni, most individuals weighed much less than that. And the largest lions weigh way more than 370 pounds.
And having a huge jaw bite force alone wouldn't be enough regardless, the lions have claws to it's advantage and would most likely be quicker and more agile than the E.H, not to mention stronger...
@@harsha1989able actually if you check out the Validus (large Haydeni Specimens) they weighted around 181kg or more so basically 400Ib pounds. They were evolutionarily getting bigger if you check their fossil record. They were also as robust as a grizzly bear, which is pretty robust. They were not built like average canids (Modern Canines). These were dogs that were built like big cats.
Also if your jaws can produce a bite force as strong as a saltwater crocodile, that’s something to be fearful of as another predator since if you get bit you can risk injury, which will decrease your survival.
A 100 pound weight advantage doesn’t matter to an Epicyon Haydeni, these things fought carnivores far more dangerous than modern lions like Amphimachairodus or Huracan which were more dangerous competitors of Epicyon. The Borophagus were also another competitor that could have dominated Epicyons over carcasses at times like modern hyenas.
5:50 i want a video dedicated to THAT thing
@@Sirdilophosaurusthethird2.0 shut up troll
What do you call an Epicyon with a PhD in Paleontology? "Dr. Bark," the expert on prehistoric bones, who believes every dig site is just a game of fetch waiting to happen. 🤭
Quit eating the artifacts, Dr. Bark!!!!
@@FarmerDrew 😁🐕🐶
Where did you get your shrooms from?
😂😂😂
Omg the comment section is filled of hilarious Canids jokes haha
Imagine these fighting massive prehistoric WOLVERINES! The Megalitis ferrox is another supersized mammal that lived over 5 million years ago during the Miocene Epic and weighed up to 264 pounds, albeit in Africa.
@@Sirdilophosaurusthethird2.0 indubitably
Mustelids are New World, including M. ferrox, North America. The Old World convergent counterparts were Viverrids.
A postman's nightmare.
😂😂😂
I'm very impressed with your production quality.😃👍
This animal (and other large, derived borophagines) was long assumed to be a scavenger, based on the assumption that hyenas were scavengers; obviously, hyenas are actually predators, and Epicyon is now widely recognized as such as well. However, this doesn't mean the popular view of this animal meets the fossil data. Large borophagines are often assumed to have been ambush predators due to their size and the fact they supposedly had grappling limbs, part of the reason the assumption of them being outcompeted by cats took hold, However, while earlier large borophagines like Aelurodon did have some grappling capability, later ones like Epicyon did not. Their forelimbs were more flexible and mobile than that of canine canids or hyenas, but nowhere near as flexible or mobile as the grappling forelimbs of cats or bears, and their feet are relatively small and have small, blunt claws for running. And while Epicyon was bigger than any other canid, it still wasn't the 170kg monster it was often assumed to be, and other large borophagines were more in line with the sizes of large, cursorial predatory canids alive today, meaning that they wouldn't have been too big to run down prey (not to mention that bears are even less suited to running and can move terrifyingly fast for a surprising distance). Therefore, it's actually more likely that derived borophagines like Epicyon were pursuit predators, relying on their jaws alone to pull large prey to the ground.
The dying days of the late miocene brought an end to Epicyon and the dominance of borophagines, as the climate became cooler still. But one derived borophagine- Borophagus Diversidens-managed to squeeze through, and remained successful throughout the next epoch, the Pliocene.
Well, it did share its habbitat with the biggest bear-dog species ever, Amphicyon ingens, which was not just larger than it, but much, MUCH larger, the size of a grizzly bear... While it was capable to hunt, certainly, its ability to crush bones certainly came in handhy, as it could at least part of the time scavenge the remains of the Amphicyon kills for the nutritional bone marrow that bear-dogs could not access.
Borophagus Diversiden can weight up to 200+ max. Aelurodon Taxoides around 140-150. There were other Borophagines as well that took different niches.
Epicyons were also evolving to get larger so who knows what their final form would be like.
I heard Borophagus even survived into the early Pleistocene.
@@beastmaster0934 they did, Borophagus Diversidens (last species) was about the size of a large spotted hyena and could reach maxes of up to 200Ib+. They lived through the early Pliocene until 1.8 Million years ago when their extinction arrived.
Imagine the size of a medium Lion, but the smarts and pack mentality of a Canid.
So a medium size lion?
Don't the lion members of a pride already do that today? Members cooperate with each other & strategize during a hunt. They use a chaser lion or two to cause chaos & confusion in the herd to recognize & isolate the weakest member.
This dog was no bigger than a jaguar stop this BS big cats have always been bigger than dogs. Bigger bone structure bigger muscles. If this dog was the size of a lion they would have been ambush predators and lack stamina to chase like wolves.
@@Abdi-libaax Epicyons can actually reach weights of 400Ibs or more for the Validus Specimens. Also Epicyons were robust carnivores, as robust as a bear!
Epicyons were likely Ambush predators as a 400+ plus canid is not chasing down any prey but having ambush hunting tactics like Lions.
@@S.F157"Epicyon Haydeni was as robust as a bear" 😄 no it literally wasn't...
Coyotes do indeed hunt in packs. In my home province Alberta they kill many deer on the prairie and the northern bush. Cool vid though thanks
Coyotes certainly do hunt in packs where I live, western NC, between Charlotte and Asheville. Within the last 25 yrs they have driven native foxes, red and grey into the margins and whereas they were silent here, we now hear the exact vocalizations that I lived with on the Idaho/Oregon border.
We use mules and donkeys as guard animals for our horses, sheep, cattle etc.
Just here from Colorado agreeing with both of you. Coyotes definitely hunt in packs.
Coyotes are actually kinda odd I've seem them hunt in packs pairs and alone
Danny Devito could still kick its ass 😂
Was that Danny Devito? Lol I approve
0:35 DAMN!! 😮
Kitty said, "Tastes like Chicken!!"
🤣
That jaguars for you. The baddest cat on earth. Fights and kills caimans even under water
Author: "where the big dogs gone?"
The mix breed central asian shepperd / rotweiler living with me: " WTH is he talking about?"
10/10 I'd still try keep one as a pet if they were still around.
good luck with that ,
They would have to be domesticated first. They would be way more harder to domesticate than it was with wolves...
It would never be domesticated. It's more like a hyena and a wolf. It would just be a wild animal, but both could be tamed under the right situation, but it will never be your pet. You can handle them, but you will never own them
@@gloryBE-o1wit’s honestly would be simple as taking one as a baby
@@Mikey-wf9pyyou could definitely domesticate ts it’s a dog if you get one when it’s a baby ur going to be fine it’s literally like the first dog I was thinking about riding ts like a 350 pound dog probably toping 25mph for short periods on time
0:20 Thanks for the map of big cat habitat ranges! I had no idea that leopards were so widespread, especially in China. And I had no idea that the range of lions is so horribly limited. Back in Roman times, they were all the way up into north Africa and the Mideast. Finally, I had no idea that pumas were so widespread, all the way down into Brazil, Chile, and Argentina.
The map might be inaccurate when it comes to leopards at the very least. Leopard distribution in India is certainly more than what the map shows and while China historically might have had that distribution shown on the map, today they have only around 400 leopards.
The second map is definetly inacurate at least. The range of Grey Wolves is quite a bit bigger in Europe than what the map shows.
@@prithvipramod8653yes. Leopards are found all over India, and there are around 12 to 14,000 leopards in India
I feel like Europe needs to watch out on their escapee big cats from zoos and old travelling circuses, apparently we have some spotted in UK, France, Germany, Switzerland and more.
The sequence where you list the animals Latin names and show pictures of the creatures is very helpful. Showing the art and drawings of the creatures helps me to understand and remember them. My wife said the same thing. It makes the different animals in the videos very interesting and easy to remember.
Say ‘fossilised faeces’ twenty times really fast. But seriously- thanks mate. Really interesting and researched and easy to follow
Yea mate lovely video son
Am glad you did this video bc there are not a lot about Epicyon!!
If only the American Lion and Epicyon Haydeni were around at the same time period? Would they compete against each other? If so, their battles would be legendary.
They competed against a similar size machairodont named “Amphimachairodus” which was a competitor of Epicyon. They were similar enough to an American Lion to basically be a counterpart of them but from the Miocene. So a battle between the two would be not so one sided as Epicyon were robust and built like bears. Even Tigers have hard time killing Sloth Bears/Sun Bears. Imagine a 400+ 16,000 Newton Bone Crushing Dog as you nemesis? Not something I would want to come face to face with. Don’t believe me? Look up how wide their skull is.
@@S.F157bigger in size are the only way for any dog species to defeat any cat/big cat species. if the dog were smaller or at the same size as the cat/big cat, the dog wouldn’t stand a chance at all. pound for pound any cat/big cat would easily defeat a dog. cat/big cat are built different. their body were miles better than a dog. they have better muscle composition, they are more agile, has faster reaction time, run faster, jump longer and higher. they also has the deadliest killing techniques in animal kingdom which is the neck bite. before the epicyon even have the chance to use that bite force, the mountain lion were already bite the epicyon neck😂
@@m.a.i7324 Epicyons were the dominate carnivores of their time in the late Miocene so technically we can say they were pretty strong to be the dominate carnivores.
American lion only has a bite force newtons of 4,450 while Epicyon has 4x the newtons at 16,000. So even if the American Lion weighs more, is it worth the trouble getting a bite by a 16,000 newton dog? Short-Faced bears were the dominate carnivores of late Pleistocene NA, so the American Lion was a Carnivore but weren’t the most dominant of its environment.
Sure Lion is more robust than Hyena Dog but Epicyon were as robust as Grizzly Bears which is what American Lion Robustility is compared to.
@@S.F157 You act like epicyon were the only carnivore that dominate in miocine duh. In fact there’s are multiple carnivore that dominate in miocine and one of them are a saber tooth cat called nimravids. Nimravids are only the same size of modern jaguar and mountain lions which is smaller than epicyon. Both nimravids and epicyon lived at the same place which is in north america. If you look at our modern day animal kingdom, the only place that a dog can dominate the area if there are no presence of a big cat. Nimravids are smaller, both of them lived in the same place but nimravids also can dominate literally shows how strong a cat is. The only reason epicyon are one of the dominant carnivores in miocine were because in this period there are not so many big cat species and the big cat species were also smaller.
Back to our epicyon vs American lion topic, max weight that an epicyon can reach were only 170 kg and max weight of American lion were 250 kg. As i said in my earlier comment, the only way that a dog can defeat any cat are if the dog were bigger which in this case American lion are way bigger. Cats are way faster than a dog dude that dog bite force is no use when the neck of the epicyon already get bitten by american lion.
@@m.a.i7324 false false and more false. Nimravids were around when Epicyon was the dominate carnivore but not all Nimravids were small.
Amphimachairodus (Machairodont) & Barbourofelis (Nimravidae) were large feliforms and both were larger than Epicyons at their maxes, but Epicyon still coexisted with them. The reason is because they (Epicyons) were dominant carnivores. Epicyons reached maxes of 181.44kg (400Ib) at their maxes if we include the Validus specimens (Epicyons that grew bigger over time). They were evolving to get larger before their extinction, showing their dominance.
With a strong bite force I don’t think most carnivores would bother with this fella. When it comes to most canids compared to large Felids, felids tend to be more robust. But Epicyon was a whole different kind of canid, big, strong bite force, robust, it was ambush predator (indicating it was probably too heavy to run after prey; the Haydeni species at least).
9:04 why apologise bro? U casually drop movie quality vids every week. Hope ur channel grows more since u really deserve it
I love it when you go through all the other animals they lived with on these vids.
What if epicyon was man's original best friend? 🤔
They never met, Epicyon went extinct millions of years before the first hominids appeared.
It went extinct 5 million years ago. Morder humans are 3-200,000 years old.
If we manage to create exponentially large dogs or fighting machines like fighting dogs. Imagine what would happen if humanity used artificial selection on a giant canid.
Imagine a guard dog made from Epicyon. Taking into account that dogs have managed to develop a better bite than wolves in some cases, we would also be creating a guard machine.
Back when men were giants.
Yo Dawg, that video is off the chains !
Guh…guh….Good Dog!🤣🤣
Mr. Pickles! 😂😂😂
Even though their big, they were the biggest good boys ever...
How does compare to a huge ass wolf hound or Newfie? Like the biggest ones we've bred?
Masstifs can get around 230lbs(105kg). So on avg the larger specimens can get 20-65% larger.
The largest dog in history was a 343lbs (155kg) English mastiff.
Makeing them around the same size as the largest dog in modern history with a capableity to grow much larger.
3:15 damn.. Danny Devito as Reference....and I just realized that im significantly taller than him💀
09:41 what the heck is that scorpion mosquito hybrid?
Came to the comments for this.
Number one: it's not a vertebrate
Number two: WTF is it!!!
I've watched a lot of nature documentaries and tons of TH-cam nature documentaries in my 50 years, still clueless. Maybe it's an AI generated creature.
No it is a real critter. I totally forgot the name but i've Seen a long documentary about strange ''insect-like'' animals and they were in the video.
Another awesome video. Just discorved your channel, and I'm loving it. Can you at some point do a video about Jaguars and Leopards, two of my favourite big cat species.
What is the insect with wings and scorpion tail? (9:38)
Hopefully its not real but Australia probably has it
I am quite surprised canids that canids don't get bigger than this is because they are pack hunters and have to share meals.
I’ve been binge watching ExtinctZoo videos while fasting😊
8:27 ....SEE MAN 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for great selection of artwork & bones 🐕👍
The ancestors of Dogmen and Werewolves seen and encountered all around the world.
Great channel
I wonder if they could have been domesticated? I’d bet yes.
so theyre real wargs
A very impressive list of names and extinct animals!
Has everyone forgot about werewolves? What has society come to…
Werewolf? There wolf. Watch Young Frankenstein.
Who's on first
Werewolves don't exist.
7:15 what is the name of the animal being chased by the Epicyon here? Thank you ✌
turtle
I'm not familiar with them, but it is a protoceratid, possibly Syndyoceras.
@@Dr.Ian-Plect Synthetoceras
He a good boi
I have a spec evo project called the “Alternate Pleistocene”.
Basically, due to various differences (too many to thoroughly explain here), a few lineages from as far back as the middle Miocene persist into modern times in varying capacities, and Borophagines are one of these lineages.
Their common name is “Warg” after the ferocious beasts in the world of Middle Earth.
And there are plenty of members of this subfamily, including the mighty Epicyon, or “Giant Warg”, one of the apex predators of the Great Plains, which are more like a semi-arid savanna in this timeline.
We turned them into pugs…
3:57 what app did he use to see these measurements?
Cheethas and cougars are not big cats. Also, big dogs do exist: they're called "bears".
Bears are not part of the canid family, thus it's not a big dog, do some research.
He acknowledged that both cougars and cheetahs aren’t scientifically big cats but are generally grouped in with true bcs.
It's not for nothing that we got along with canids so well. They may never have been terrifying monsters on their own, but they quickly understood that team work open more doors than it close. Their story is the same as our, you live alone as a prey, or become a predator with your pack
Dont worry he dont bite
Very insightful and informative, Great video 👍👍
Can you imagine having those puppies crawl all over you?
3:14 - This needs more attention. You’re welcome.
Interesting vid....This was something I always wondered about when I was a kid. I wondered why the biggest dog (the wolf) was comparable in size to leopards, and how come there were no dog counterparts (size wise) to jaguars, lions and tigers. Of course, none of the books I had back then mentioned Epicyon, or, if they did, no mention of its size was made. And back then, lots of things weren't common knowledge, even to those like me who had such interests. No one knew what a velociraptor was, much less Epicyon!
Isn’t a Saint Bernard bigger than a wolf? Some of them look comparable to lions in size 😮 though I think that’s not natural it probably required selective breeding
any idea of the artist at 9:18 ?
WHO let the dogs out? Who?!? Who?!? Who?!?
Tigers and lions would look almost the same if we found their skeletons and didn't know the animal, yet one is a pack hunter and the other isn't, so I really find the reasons you give for them being pack hunters based on other canines to be quite weak.
IMHO, they seem more fit to be robbers/scavengers. Not being able to run their prey down, they could drive smaller hunters off their prey and they could eat larger dead animals than any others.
Agree, and not sure how a pack would help compensate for being slow.
@@dorjanjcMaybe by leading their prey towards an ambush, like lions often do.
I see this lifestyle being suggested all the time for extinct predators and yet if it made so much sense why are there almost no specialized robbers among large predators today?
I can only think of one that actually obtains a large percentage of its meat this way, the brown hyena.
Other that that, all other predators steal other animals' kills when they can do so but it's not a reliable source of food and if they couldn't catch their own food they would starve.
@@edmondantes4338 When so many of the animals were mega fauna, big enough to hold off predators as long as the animal was healthy, there would be a supply of bodies to scavenge when they died. Being bigger and stronger than the lighter predators, they could not only bite open the hides of the mega fauna, but also with superior jaws and teeth make use of the large bones of the mega fauna, getting more out of the carcass than any other scavenger, which would limit the amount of hunting it would have to do. It can be determined that it could hunt when needed, but taking the path of least resistance, it would prefer robbing/savaging if the opportunity arose.
6:21 anecdotal?
Foxes are volpes, not canids
They are in the family canidae and the genus vulpes
“Volpe” sounds like a term inspired by “Wolf” anyway. Especially if you pronounce it in German which would be “Volf”.
I just saw 9:40 What the everloving F is that flying Scorpion mantis thing?
guess lmao... its a scorpion fly
@@toddberkely6791 And I've just found out they're in Australia, this place more cursed the more I look.
@@purplemnkydshwshr🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 as an Aussie I find this so amusing.
Hello☦️✝️
@@Sirdilophosaurusthethird2.0 what
Christ is King.
@@Sirdilophosaurusthethird2.0 says the guy with a dinosaur with a top hat
@@johnsoutherland3403true
So yes grey wolfs are the largest wild canid. But there have been 300 hundred plus lb dogs. Dogs are living canids and we are breeding them larger every day. 200 to 343 is max dog weight right now with zorba being the biggest dog in history 8feet 3 inches in length and 343 lbs he was an old english mastiff
Side note it's wild to think that zorba would have barely looked different from the largest epicion. He was a real beast.
However, mass alone doesn't say much. North American Grey wolves have larger skulls and stronger jaws, plus have long, strong, narrowly placed limbs with larger paws, which are more useful for almost anything than the boxy body shape with short, stuff limbs and smaller paws humans bred to most dogs.
@@glory2cybertron still tho we are currently breeding the largest canids in history
Does that make C. Familaris the largest recorded Canid? And also the smallest. Amazing creatures.
@@highloughsdrifter1629 I guess. Seeing how the largest bear dogs weight is an estimate with a low range less than zorbas
Super WOOF!
Furry
I love the way you pronounce "species." Please keep it up.
Stop saying Canus!!!!
“referred to as dogs”💀
Sounds like “anus”
Or anus!
You could leave then you won't hear it
10:32 = the longest list of animals I've ever heard
Roman reigns
😅
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THE EXCELLENT VIDEO......
Old F-4 Shoe🇺🇸
Dawg🦮💪🔥💯
@@Sirdilophosaurusthethird2.0 I commented just for you to come under here to spam the same shit🤣🔥💯
2:57 ah the Canidae family, that illustrious family with a long history of involvement in the top dog fight in North America
Video idea: list the most successfully reigning animals based on millions of years within the fossil record. Perhaps separate videos for predators and prey. I think this would further broaden our perspectives on how truly successful these animals are. The Epicyon and Barinasuchus for example reigned for quite a bit, while many popular and perhaps overrated theropods reigned for much shorter. Allosaurus did quite well for a theropod.
Many more discussions can be made by analyzing these statistics, though I understand it is difficult to get reliable results based on the fossil record. What kind of predators reigned longest? Are there any common traits between them (pack hunting, scavenging, size, etc.)? Do certain families have longer success rates (Canidae vs Felidae etc.)? List of potential video topics can go on and on from there!
It's a wonder that breeders havent been able to create a mega dog that can run like wind at 250-300 pounds. How you could control a huge dog out for a walk is another wonder
Man, I saw a show years ago that broke down how wolves came to rival big cats as sucessful predators. It was excellent, and I've never been able to find it. It described how pack hunting worked and how it allowed them to compete despite size and tooth "disadvantage" (when compared to cats).
1:13 Clifford, the big red dog anyone?
5:52 what type of deer is that
“Who’s a good boi!” always works.
@3:09 I can't believe you used Danny DeVito as measuring stick to these dogs. 😅🤣😂
Now we know what the dog doin in the past.
Growing.
wouldn't it be awesome if we could know what these animals sounded like!?!! For example the hyena just imagine only ever finding their bones we wouldn't be able to tell that they make a squeely noise and yip like they do, they don't bark but look like they might. I think it would be so cool if we were able to know what some of the extinct animals did to communicate.
I need a video on a bear dog! Lol tbis was a good video great job!
The more you read and dive deep into understanding Dogs (Canidae) you figure their Feliform counterparts aren't Felids themselves but rather Hyenas, Both are large predators which had subfamilies built for more Cursorial life or large Bone crushers and they have a similar body plan so much so that laypeople need to be informed Hyenas are closer to Cats than then are to Dogs, and in the end Canids through Caninae perfected and now have completely taken over the cursorial stamina freak niche and Hyenas took over the bonecrushing tough guys. Cats meanwhile seem to be more of a Bear counterpart if we compare Caniformia and Feliformia.
Amphicyonids would be more of a counterpart, Bears are usually Omnivorous.
❤ this content, AND the Danny DeVito cameo! thnx
4:09 grizzly bears can reach 150cm in height to the shoulders
Mastiffs are actually recorded as being bigger than Epicyon Haydeni. Specifically English and Tibetan Mastiffs. So the largest canines to ever live are still alive.
1:13 right here
3:22 ése no es Epycion Haydeni: Es Amphicyon Ingens, un miembro de los Anficionidos (o más popular mente conocidos cómo Perros-Oso).
this video has blown my mind. amazing.
Imagine if many Epicyon Haydeni were around today? Some hunters & farmers with their hunting & livestock guardian dogs would be a little unnerved.
I've been fascinated by dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals from I was a child. Scientist can only speculate what these creatures ate, how they hunted and which modern day animal they are related to with the help of fossils and comparing those fossils to modern day animals. Mystery these creatures provide makes us keep begging for more and we will never get bored.