Really loved this gauntlet format!! Just getting to watch treantmonk tactics alone was a treat.... but in such a streamlined format its like concentrated optimization goodness!
I think you’re really onto something here… This format of video where you put the theory behind optimization into practice against near impossible combat encounters is really instructive and oh so entertaining!!
Practice rather then theory! You can crunch big numbers all day but till a build is put in the thick it is an unknown. I's like to see treantmonk try this with an optimised wizard as I think he'd fair greater as it his style.
@@arnijulian6241 As powerful as the Wizard class is, and as informed as TM is about the spells & mechanics of the class, my gut says that a Wizard couldn't survive through a gauntlet structured like this. The Wizard in many ways is the ultimate team player, especially when using control spells. Without large follow up damage on that turn, multiple creatures take the field eventually. If the wizard sacrifices control for damage, he becomes vulnerable. Its a lose-lose strat.
@@pranakhan All you say is true but A wizard can be specialised to the gauntlet. junky abjurer with armour of agathist. An enchanter with split enchantment can shut down multiple target for little cost. high Damage every round is not the only way to get through a gauntlet though an Evoker with AOE like fireball performs better then 1 often thinks. Chronurgy is so powerful I like it odd's with little optimization. My instinct says to select a (war mage) & use concentration AOE spells with some means of damage like cantrip or magic missile on top but that is just off the top my head. Wizard can do better thing then mere spirit guardians & have more options to adapt. Spirit Guardians is resource intensive if only used for 1 combat that a gantlet doesn't reward. If 2 or 3 combat from 1 spirit guardian common in campaign it is very nice but a gauntlet that doesn't happen! The fact simulacrum is available at 13th level effectively mean you add action economy & double spell slots. Think about it Prana?
So hindsight is 20/20. That said, I think: 1) It was profoundly unfair that they did not share ALL the rules with you. Once they revealed the Forced 10 min breaks between combats you should have been able to rebuild from scratch and start over. That was total BS! 2) A bloodwell vial would have made more sense, not for a +1 SG D/C, but for the 5 Sorcery points you'd predictably get on the short rest. 3) Firebolt, even without a hydra, it damages objects. 4) Who needs feats? Clearly your biggest design error was not being true to yourself... Where is the Halfling to mitigate nat 1s?? LOL In all seriousness, interesting run, solid build.
Honestly, I prob would have changed the gauntlet rules if he pushed back on how silly that 10 min # is. Lots of the weaknesses of this particular gauntlet (including the 10 min rule) have been changed in future gauntlets. Some, you even get to choose the order you take the challenges 😮
We did provide a huge document with all the details and rules, but it was tucked away in a random message and I don't blame chris for not seeing it. We should have been more clear! also yeah what cmcc said, in the future runs we'll definitely do a distance-based separation rather than a time separation. More options for the player!
I think health bars for monsters would make this more followable for the viewer. If the DM doesn't want to give away HP totals then a "counting up" damage indicator would be a good compromise.
Forgetting telekinetic can save you from grapples is fair since the entire mechanic is so weird in 5e where all you need to do is create space to end a grapple, no roll specifically for that grapple being required.
It's also something I wouldn't expect every DM to allow - I find that the non-teleport ones, DMs might easily rule "They keep ahold of you and drag you with them" as the result (or require some further check).
We need more vids like these, the one shots you did with cody and the dungeon dudes, this, and more like this is excellent. short one shots condensed in one video showing tactics and story.
I love this format! Id also like to see a similar condensed retwlling but with a 4 PC party of similiar level. This shows off the highlighted build, but itd also be cool to seea more typical party
@@BeaDSM No they’re not. The gauntlet is designed to test combat ability of builds. You could just planar bind a Dybbuk and dimension door through. This doesn’t prove anything about the builds combat ability. We measure by xp claimed, not by killing the mind flayer arcanist. This isn’t a regular campaign.
This was awesome to watch. I absolutely love watching the build and the test, and your commentary is valuable. I assume a ton of work went into this, and it shows. Thanks guys!
I'd not be too hard on yourself for using misty step, as that is a certainty where telekinetic shove could be saved, so arguably a good choice. Though remaining grappled for a turn or two more on a save doesn't seem bad with the tactics you are playing, you didn't really need or want to move much anyway - so it all comes down to how long before you start drowning.
@@ballsmcgee7783 Technically RAW perhaps, but if I was DM'ing that encounter I think I'd still put the roll on the grappler in that case, probably your spellcasting vs their athletics - escaping should require some contest or meaningful resource expenditure. Edit: Though I suppose as you are actively choosing to move yourself with that shove everything gets opportunity attacks on you, so maybe that can be allowed...
I feel this would be a very different experience live at a table. Maybe a more enjoyable one. Being able to take physical breaks could reinvigorate the players and DM's to keep that visceral tempo, and some quality miniature setups (like Dimension 20 or CR) could increase the feeling of immersion and give that Warhammer-style tactical feedback to complex plays. Fun stuff though, a pleasure to watch & I learned a lot
This was an amazing vid. I enjoyed watching the Gauntlet on the other channel, but I feel like I learned a lot here from you diagnosing the play and your decisions. Fantastic work, Chris!
Well, if the whole fight was considered underwater, the hydra is totally busted because RAW, everything’s immune to fire damage in the underwater rules
Got the general feeling that the vibes weren't there between DM and Player. Chris is being polite but the fact that "the DM" has no name I think is very telling for someone as generally chill as Chris. Also, no acknowledgement from the DM on his mistakes in the video but fully mentioning Chris'. All recieved with the Stoneface emoji from Chris. Not trying to stir up the hate though, its probably because of the adversarial nature of the challenge.
How many techniques to push in and out of spirit guardians does this build have? - telekinetic push (bonus action) - grasp of hadar (x3) (action) - crusher (x3?) (action) - steed movement
I suppose you can also include Misty Step for repositioning, since the steed's movement is included. As for Grasp of Hadar and Crusher, he does have 3 attempts per action, but both can only trigger once per turn.
@@leonardoconde8930 That is wrong: Grasp of Hadar Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your eldritch blast, you can move that creature in a straight line 10 feet closer to you.
"I'm going to sit back, relax..." That didnt look relaxing! You did well so far! I watched the other two runs, and the Barb & sidekicks had some ABYSMAL rolls, too! Paly was a good pick. Good saves, and bonus' to companions' saves really help, plus area of effect and forced movement. I'm interested to see who else he gets to run the Gauntlet, what they make, and how they do.
I was hoping to see commentary on that. I've always thought they go off at the same time, but I acknowledge that maybe I've gotten that wrong. Watching to see what others think...
@@Vreely I agree that they should all fire at the same time, as moving between attacks is for Extra Attack builds, not Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray builds.
Take it easy on yourself, Chris. You are a great tactician. The bad rolls were nasty but that happens. And the mistakes you said you made were little things that are easy to spot after the battle but really hard at the heat of the moment. And I think they were not mistakes. You just thought about a more optimal move.
Hmmm, I noticed that Chris moved between the attacks of Eldritch Blast, but from Moving between Attacks (phb 190) you can only do that with weapon attacks and not spells, right?
It feels like the first fight is not balanced at all. Other than yours and the nuclear wizard, I can think of maybe an great invis or Gloomstalker that could realistically not die in a round or two. It's too much HP, too much damage and too much paralyze.
First fight is actually couple combats in one (4 medium combats) divided into waves 3-4 rounds long (average encounter length for medium combats). So it is not that unbalanced.
I'm wondering how you feel about how the stealth checks were homebrewed in this gauntlet. If I understand how stealth and surprise normally work, every creature that attempts to stealth is trying to beat the passive perception of each creature in the enemy party. If all of them manage to have a higher stealth than any specific creature in the enemy party, that creature is surprised, and loses its first turn. In this game, it seemed like the GM was just letting your Kenku scout prevent the less perceptive teammates from being surprised. I can understand wanting to nerf effects like Pass without Trace, but was curious if this was intentionally done differently, or if I'm getting some aspect of the rules wrong.
It seems to me a character who could permanently fly (either with racial ability or such as a Bard of Creation using Animating Performance) would do very well in some of these fights (especially the first one) as they could just fly out of the reach and range of most opponents or just out right ignore them since the main objective was to stop the Mind Flayer. Especially combined with the Simulacrum Spell (level 14 Magical Secrets) Thoughts? Or perhaps just avoiding all the unnecessary fights via magical scrying / arcane eye and teleporting or magical stealth ect. Thoughts?
Oddfather here: ceiling is too low to dodge most of the enemies. Even the sharks can jump! But there are a lot of other ways of trivializing the first combat.
gotta say, surprised you didn't take fire bolt with those sorcerer cantrip selections - both for potential regenerating monsters and destroying objects. did you just not bother to fill those in aside from eldritch blast?
Hello, Chris! Me and my friends are planning to play a campaign using your builds! I was left to be the tank/healer. I don’t like being a spellcaster. Do you know which of your builds is the most optimal one to be a tank support healer at the same time with no magic/spellcasting? Or, at least, hard to kill healer with no spellcasting. Do you have one of those? I don’t recall. Which one would you recommend? Thank you for your attention. Keep up the great work.
I watched the video on CMCC Builds and I watched this in hopes of testing my assumptions versus you’re reasoning. This is great content and these channels really inspire people to become better players.
Still don't understand how Kwayzar can cast Shield, which has a somatic component but no material component, when one hand has a shield and the other a spell casting focus. The Sage Advice Compendium is pretty clear that you cannot use the hand holding a spell casting focus to perform the somatic component of a spell that does not also have a material component unless you have the War Caster feat. Subtle Spell meta magic would work to remove the somatic (and verbal) component, but I didn't hear that being used each time and it would have burned through a lot of sorcery points in a hurry.
I think Kwayzar can cast shield like any other spellcasters equipped with a shield . If you rule that Kwayzar can't cast shield then neither can a multi-classed shield wielding wizard.
Most likely the DM/table of the Gauntlet aren't caring about the nitty gritty of component rules. A lot of people don't use them, (though a lot of Optimizers do, so it's a little weird it's not mentioned at all)
As was mentioned in the comments of their video and that I elaborated on: souldn't you not be alowed to make movements between Eldritch Blast bolts? All attack from a spellcasting like Eldritch Blast and Scorching Ray happen instantaneously, unlike with the Attack action. ...Now, that does open up another build combo oprotunity, since the Invisibility spell and Ring of Invisibility only drop the effect once the spellcasting has been resolved, so all of the attacks benefit from advantage before the Invisible Condition is removed.
The way I use it, Telekinetic won't end grappling - if you move the creature grappling you, you move along. I am not sure about the RAW ruling on this - anyone?
This is so cool! I get like Diablo vibes - powerful hero, knows how to operate, facing against unlikely odds. I think this showcases a really fun way to lean into 'optimised' play. I might suggest something like this to some people I play with (but as a party)
My dungeonmaster complains about Spirit Guardians all the time. I play at Forge cleric that is built to be tanky and to be a threat with Spirit Guardians. I keep people up and deal damage and all he does is whine and complain about it. That I am overpowered and broken with a single spell? He would probably banned me if I tried to play something like this.
With my Dragonborn I carry oil flasks tied to my belt so I can detach and drop them with an Interaction and set it on fire with my breath, grappling my enemy to drag them to the area and take 5 fire dmg on my turn and their turn
How are you moving between Eldritch Blast beams in @8:40 ? Shouldn't it be a single casting meaning all targets must be chosen at time of casting and no moving between blasts?
A rules question, in round 2 you moved between casting eldritch blast beams. I've always assumed this to be illegal since instead of extra attack which allows this option it's all one spell cast just with multiple beams. Am i wrong on this?
I really enjoy watching this, it has become clear that a non-caster probably will not succeed though. That first fight needs caster AoE or some kind of bottleneck/terrain that a melee hero could utilise, at least if they want to get through that first level intact... although, that said, the gauntlet is supposed to be hard, and an open field fight on bad terrain is a fair thing to test.
@@Bilbrons-and-Dragons if it focused on control and could keep itself safe while the melee tanked hits. Without defensive features though, it's probably going to get ragdolled due to not being able to catch everything. Even if it catches the sharks it's not really going to be free to concentrate. "Kill the wizard" is a DM mentality. And enough attacks will do it, even with shield and misty step. A sidekick caster just isn't going to survive the way a true caster will in an open field while surrounded.
I kinda want to try this with a ultra long range build Maybe the phantom rogue build here but with sharpshooter and a longbow so you can attack from 600ft away
@@abcrasshadow9341 no with elf for longbow proficiency, fire damage cantrips and elven accuracy. I’m going to take ritual caster and get phantom steed for that.
i'm not sure if that would work out as well during the underwater combat; even with steady aim, you'd be rolling straight, couldn't shoot beyond 150ft either way and would need your allies to survive in melee with your target to get sneak attacks. that would also render elven accuracy pointless. doing it with a crossbow you could do it as usual, but only from 100ft normal range (and i think they'd be able to engage in melee pretty soon, considering you are slowed down in water AND need to make the mount use disengage when they dash up)
@@zaladar1 Its an optimization test... And Twilight is still a legal subclass to use. Many people feel like the paladin Aura is broken... But here it is in use... smh
As a paladin you could try to abuse your 1st lvl Ceremony spell to add a free 1d4 to all ability checks and saving throws and +2 AC to you and your sidekicks for that oneshot
I want to test an Yuan ti pureblood 11th OathBreaker Paladin/ 3 Genie Tomelock or 3 lvl Hexblade Bladelock with Polearm master and magic initiate with Fog Cloud with fiend sidekicks
Question- once the orc had a successful saving throw vs the Dreadful glare, he would be immune from the glare for the next 24 hours for all mummies, so he shouldn’t have been almost paralyzed a second time ( and saved “favored of the gods” for future use ) ?
Yeah, the additional information of having 10 minutes between encounters, and the few spell slots you could've saved from the first encounter can definitely snowball into determining success or failure. On the other hand though, your poor luck, which isn't something you can factor in, definitely played a big role as well xD. That and the DM rolling well. Good first video though.
I'm glad I started watching the gauntlet but stop before combat started, because having you give commentary to it I feel like is a better way to absorb this. [Also considering how long combat 1 is, you could have broken it up into rounds for easy navigation.]
Was there no OAs in these combats? I keep hearing about water wraiths pulling back and the wraiths moving into the floors.....shouldn't there have been some OAs provoked?
technically the wraiths were still within reach as they went into the stone, just behind total cover as well and the water weirds are invisible in water, so they can't provoke attacks of opportunity that rely on eyesight
A build like this just makes me cry for a classless system. I’ve tried to build a large point-buy feature list, but I don’t always write down my ideas and when I sit down to make a list I can’t think of anything. I end up copying my top picks from other systems.
Chris, I want your thoughts on a statement you made around @5:45 where you say it would have been better if your allies *lost* initiative. But isn't winning initiative just the same in the round order as losing it, with the clear benefit of having the dodge action on round 1? In either case, after the first round, you alternate turns. It's not as if losing initiative would give you an extra action economy.
Yes, but dodge didn't really gain anything, and the sidekicks needed to stay in Paladin aura. If the sidekicks had gone after the monsters, the monsters may have moved forward into range so that the sidekicks could have both attacked and stay in aura.
Spirit Guardians question: The spell says it triggers "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there". Here in play, it is triggered when the creature is pulled in during Kwayzar's turn. Shouldn't the trigger occur later?
"on A turn" not "on it's turn". It doesn't matter who's turn it is. In fact, multiple people can drag enemies out and back into the spirit guardians on their turns, triggering the saving throw each time.
My understanding is that for spells with a range of self and then a listed range, the caster is just the point of origin. This disqualifies spells like spirit guardians from applying to find steed's wording of "targets only you"
I really struggle to see how anyone could beat this (although a look at the discord shows people have). In order to not get swarmed to death, it feels like you need strong battlefield control and mobility options, but you also need to be doing the damage. My best guess so far is to use a summoning spell. The summon can eat a ton of enemy actions and they typically last long enough to make it into a second combat. A lot of them - like the elementals - are immune to many of the conditions that can insta-kill you. From there I think you have to spam blast spells while enemies are bunched up. Those reef sharks in particular were looking very vulnerable.
@Mogalixir There are a ton of Spirit Guardians builds as well, with people predominantly focusing on not being hit. So the game play loop becomes cast Spirit Guardians, dodge and slowly widdle away the encounters The difference between that and what Chris is doing in play is he is actively trying to advance the game state rather than dodging and waiting for the game to end
The competitive side of me wants to do this so bad.
The exhausted side of me would like to pass.
I feel this so much…about dnd and a lot of things 😂
Really loved this gauntlet format!! Just getting to watch treantmonk tactics alone was a treat.... but in such a streamlined format its like concentrated optimization goodness!
I'd love to see Colby from @DnDDeepDive take this on.
Love watching Chris play, he has a very good strategic mind, and when his build is perfect to allow him to express that it can be a real treat.
I think you’re really onto something here… This format of video where you put the theory behind optimization into practice against near impossible combat encounters is really instructive and oh so entertaining!!
Practice rather then theory!
You can crunch big numbers all day but till a build is put in the thick it is an unknown.
I's like to see treantmonk try this with an optimised wizard as I think he'd fair greater as it his style.
@@arnijulian6241 As powerful as the Wizard class is, and as informed as TM is about the spells & mechanics of the class, my gut says that a Wizard couldn't survive through a gauntlet structured like this. The Wizard in many ways is the ultimate team player, especially when using control spells. Without large follow up damage on that turn, multiple creatures take the field eventually. If the wizard sacrifices control for damage, he becomes vulnerable. Its a lose-lose strat.
@@pranakhan All you say is true but A wizard can be specialised to the gauntlet.
junky abjurer with armour of agathist.
An enchanter with split enchantment can shut down multiple target for little cost.
high Damage every round is not the only way to get through a gauntlet though an Evoker with AOE like fireball performs better then 1 often thinks.
Chronurgy is so powerful I like it odd's with little optimization.
My instinct says to select a (war mage) & use concentration AOE spells with some means of damage like cantrip or magic missile on top but that is just off the top my head.
Wizard can do better thing then mere spirit guardians & have more options to adapt.
Spirit Guardians is resource intensive if only used for 1 combat that a gantlet doesn't reward.
If 2 or 3 combat from 1 spirit guardian common in campaign it is very nice but a gauntlet that doesn't happen!
The fact simulacrum is available at 13th level effectively mean you add action economy & double spell slots.
Think about it Prana?
You really feel the difference between even a one-person party with Aura of Protection and a party without.
So hindsight is 20/20. That said, I think:
1) It was profoundly unfair that they did not share ALL the rules with you. Once they revealed the Forced 10 min breaks between combats you should have been able to rebuild from scratch and start over. That was total BS!
2) A bloodwell vial would have made more sense, not for a +1 SG D/C, but for the 5 Sorcery points you'd predictably get on the short rest.
3) Firebolt, even without a hydra, it damages objects.
4) Who needs feats? Clearly your biggest design error was not being true to yourself... Where is the Halfling to mitigate nat 1s??
LOL In all seriousness, interesting run, solid build.
Honestly, I prob would have changed the gauntlet rules if he pushed back on how silly that 10 min # is.
Lots of the weaknesses of this particular gauntlet (including the 10 min rule) have been changed in future gauntlets.
Some, you even get to choose the order you take the challenges 😮
We did provide a huge document with all the details and rules, but it was tucked away in a random message and I don't blame chris for not seeing it. We should have been more clear!
also yeah what cmcc said, in the future runs we'll definitely do a distance-based separation rather than a time separation. More options for the player!
That said, people have beaten the gauntlet.
Profoundly unfair and total BS is an exaggeration for a minor miscommunication between them that effected some spell slot economy
That first fight was absolutely brutal. I don’t think there are a lot of builds that could have made it out of that in one piece.
I think health bars for monsters would make this more followable for the viewer. If the DM doesn't want to give away HP totals then a "counting up" damage indicator would be a good compromise.
What a cool build. GET IN MY GUARDIANS!
Forgetting telekinetic can save you from grapples is fair since the entire mechanic is so weird in 5e where all you need to do is create space to end a grapple, no roll specifically for that grapple being required.
It's also something I wouldn't expect every DM to allow - I find that the non-teleport ones, DMs might easily rule "They keep ahold of you and drag you with them" as the result (or require some further check).
We need more vids like these, the one shots you did with cody and the dungeon dudes, this, and more like this is excellent. short one shots condensed in one video showing tactics and story.
I love this format! Id also like to see a similar condensed retwlling but with a 4 PC party of similiar level. This shows off the highlighted build, but itd also be cool to seea more typical party
There's already a 3 pc party gauntlet at level 10
If you had fire damage the first fight would have been way easier
after watching this video i think the best strat for the gauntlet is skipping the fights with pass without trace
You don’t get points if you do
@@davidwilfand916 points are meaningless.
@@BeaDSM No they’re not. The gauntlet is designed to test combat ability of builds. You could just planar bind a Dybbuk and dimension door through. This doesn’t prove anything about the builds combat ability. We measure by xp claimed, not by killing the mind flayer arcanist.
This isn’t a regular campaign.
It is "test your build in combat" type of game - would be strange to skip combats in it.
What were quasars cantrips? It seems like he had a lot of selections and firebolt is usually a staple. Or at least chill touch.
This was awesome to watch. I absolutely love watching the build and the test, and your commentary is valuable. I assume a ton of work went into this, and it shows. Thanks guys!
I'd not be too hard on yourself for using misty step, as that is a certainty where telekinetic shove could be saved, so arguably a good choice. Though remaining grappled for a turn or two more on a save doesn't seem bad with the tactics you are playing, you didn't really need or want to move much anyway - so it all comes down to how long before you start drowning.
You can always shove yourself. You are a creature you can see within range, and you can choose to fail the save.
@@ballsmcgee7783 Technically RAW perhaps, but if I was DM'ing that encounter I think I'd still put the roll on the grappler in that case, probably your spellcasting vs their athletics - escaping should require some contest or meaningful resource expenditure.
Edit: Though I suppose as you are actively choosing to move yourself with that shove everything gets opportunity attacks on you, so maybe that can be allowed...
I feel this would be a very different experience live at a table. Maybe a more enjoyable one. Being able to take physical breaks could reinvigorate the players and DM's to keep that visceral tempo, and some quality miniature setups (like Dimension 20 or CR) could increase the feeling of immersion and give that Warhammer-style tactical feedback to complex plays. Fun stuff though, a pleasure to watch & I learned a lot
This was an amazing vid. I enjoyed watching the Gauntlet on the other channel, but I feel like I learned a lot here from you diagnosing the play and your decisions. Fantastic work, Chris!
Great content! Should have had helpers hit the hydra with torches
They were neck deep in water - I feel the DM would have been correct to make it difficult to stay lit
@@joshuarowe4425 sure, fair enough
Underwater?
Well, if the whole fight was considered underwater, the hydra is totally busted because RAW, everything’s immune to fire damage in the underwater rules
@@paulmikowski795 Only resistant
Got the general feeling that the vibes weren't there between DM and Player. Chris is being polite but the fact that "the DM" has no name I think is very telling for someone as generally chill as Chris. Also, no acknowledgement from the DM on his mistakes in the video but fully mentioning Chris'. All recieved with the Stoneface emoji from Chris. Not trying to stir up the hate though, its probably because of the adversarial nature of the challenge.
How many techniques to push in and out of spirit guardians does this build have?
- telekinetic push (bonus action)
- grasp of hadar (x3) (action)
- crusher (x3?) (action)
- steed movement
Grasp of Hadar and Crusher each only work once per turn, but that sounds right.
@@danieldidier259 grasp works once per creature, can be more than once
I suppose you can also include Misty Step for repositioning, since the steed's movement is included. As for Grasp of Hadar and Crusher, he does have 3 attempts per action, but both can only trigger once per turn.
@@leonardoconde8930 That is wrong: Grasp of Hadar
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your eldritch blast, you can move that creature in a straight line 10 feet closer to you.
can someone please explain how the steed interacts with spirit guardians?
Gotta love the uncontrolled undead that actively and immediately counter the strategy you used in the last fight they didn't see.
"I'm going to sit back, relax..."
That didnt look relaxing!
You did well so far! I watched the other two runs, and the Barb & sidekicks had some ABYSMAL rolls, too!
Paly was a good pick. Good saves, and bonus' to companions' saves really help, plus area of effect and forced movement. I'm interested to see who else he gets to run the Gauntlet, what they make, and how they do.
Psst, theres a typo in the title
I am missing it what was the typo?
@@Razdasoldier Guantlet
Can one move between the rays in eldritch blast? Thought they all went off at the same time ?
Nope, normally they all go of at the same time.
I was hoping to see commentary on that. I've always thought they go off at the same time, but I acknowledge that maybe I've gotten that wrong. Watching to see what others think...
@@Vreely I agree that they should all fire at the same time, as moving between attacks is for Extra Attack builds, not Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray builds.
Take it easy on yourself, Chris. You are a great tactician. The bad rolls were nasty but that happens. And the mistakes you said you made were little things that are easy to spot after the battle but really hard at the heat of the moment. And I think they were not mistakes. You just thought about a more optimal move.
I know the gimmick was pulling enemies into SG. But, I think the dodge action would have been the most powerful move against chuul and hydra
Just seeing now that you do this tw the end.
Hmmm, I noticed that Chris moved between the attacks of Eldritch Blast, but from Moving between Attacks (phb 190) you can only do that with weapon attacks and not spells, right?
I wondered that, defo makes warlocks better if so
Watching your videos for a while now. You do an amazing job and I appreciate the work you do Chris.
It feels like the first fight is not balanced at all. Other than yours and the nuclear wizard, I can think of maybe an great invis or Gloomstalker that could realistically not die in a round or two. It's too much HP, too much damage and too much paralyze.
There are quite a few builds that already completed the gauntlet
First fight is actually couple combats in one (4 medium combats) divided into waves 3-4 rounds long (average encounter length for medium combats). So it is not that unbalanced.
I'm wondering how you feel about how the stealth checks were homebrewed in this gauntlet.
If I understand how stealth and surprise normally work, every creature that attempts to stealth is trying to beat the passive perception of each creature in the enemy party. If all of them manage to have a higher stealth than any specific creature in the enemy party, that creature is surprised, and loses its first turn.
In this game, it seemed like the GM was just letting your Kenku scout prevent the less perceptive teammates from being surprised. I can understand wanting to nerf effects like Pass without Trace, but was curious if this was intentionally done differently, or if I'm getting some aspect of the rules wrong.
It seems to me a character who could permanently fly (either with racial ability or such as a Bard of Creation using Animating Performance) would do very well in some of these fights (especially the first one) as they could just fly out of the reach and range of most opponents or just out right ignore them since the main objective was to stop the Mind Flayer. Especially combined with the Simulacrum Spell (level 14 Magical Secrets)
Thoughts?
Or perhaps just avoiding all the unnecessary fights via magical scrying / arcane eye and teleporting or magical stealth ect. Thoughts?
Map 1 had a 15' ceiling so Flight isn't super helpful there given the mostly Large or bigger enemies. But it was very helpful in other battles!
I’m curious if flight would trivialize the first combat.
Oddfather here: ceiling is too low to dodge most of the enemies. Even the sharks can jump! But there are a lot of other ways of trivializing the first combat.
gotta say, surprised you didn't take fire bolt with those sorcerer cantrip selections - both for potential regenerating monsters and destroying objects. did you just not bother to fill those in aside from eldritch blast?
That first combat really did seem too much imo but it's cool in the fact of it being beatable.
Hello, Chris! Me and my friends are planning to play a campaign using your builds! I was left to be the tank/healer. I don’t like being a spellcaster. Do you know which of your builds is the most optimal one to be a tank support healer at the same time with no magic/spellcasting? Or, at least, hard to kill healer with no spellcasting. Do you have one of those? I don’t recall. Which one would you recommend? Thank you for your attention. Keep up the great work.
Wow this is super cool. The difference between hearing about a build and actually seeing it is night abd day.
I watched the video on CMCC Builds and I watched this in hopes of testing my assumptions versus you’re reasoning. This is great content and these channels really inspire people to become better players.
I’d love to see pack tactics being there flagship ranger for this
Still don't understand how Kwayzar can cast Shield, which has a somatic component but no material component, when one hand has a shield and the other a spell casting focus. The Sage Advice Compendium is pretty clear that you cannot use the hand holding a spell casting focus to perform the somatic component of a spell that does not also have a material component unless you have the War Caster feat. Subtle Spell meta magic would work to remove the somatic (and verbal) component, but I didn't hear that being used each time and it would have burned through a lot of sorcery points in a hurry.
It was a mistake I think. But could have picked up bloodwell vial and the outcome would have been the same.
I think Kwayzar can cast shield like any other spellcasters equipped with a shield . If you rule that Kwayzar can't cast shield then neither can a multi-classed shield wielding wizard.
@@jerryli3550 They mean that he doesn’t have a free hand. MC wizards have a shield in one hand and a free hand for components/arcane focus.
@@davidwilfand916 Oh, I get it. he can't cast shield because he can't drop the rod of the pact keeper for a free hand
Most likely the DM/table of the Gauntlet aren't caring about the nitty gritty of component rules. A lot of people don't use them, (though a lot of Optimizers do, so it's a little weird it's not mentioned at all)
As was mentioned in the comments of their video and that I elaborated on: souldn't you not be alowed to make movements between Eldritch Blast bolts? All attack from a spellcasting like Eldritch Blast and Scorching Ray happen instantaneously, unlike with the Attack action. ...Now, that does open up another build combo oprotunity, since the Invisibility spell and Ring of Invisibility only drop the effect once the spellcasting has been resolved, so all of the attacks benefit from advantage before the Invisible Condition is removed.
How are you casting eldritch blast if you can't speak underwater? Did you subtled it every time?
water is neck height, but some of the casts were subtle yes.
@question: Can you do Blade singer/Paladin build ???? Please or a Collab vid with @CMCC Builds......
The dice giveth and the dice taketh away, great video!
The way I use it, Telekinetic won't end grappling - if you move the creature grappling you, you move along. I am not sure about the RAW ruling on this - anyone?
This is so cool! I get like Diablo vibes - powerful hero, knows how to operate, facing against unlikely odds. I think this showcases a really fun way to lean into 'optimised' play. I might suggest something like this to some people I play with (but as a party)
My dungeonmaster complains about Spirit Guardians all the time. I play at Forge cleric that is built to be tanky and to be a threat with Spirit Guardians. I keep people up and deal damage and all he does is whine and complain about it. That I am overpowered and broken with a single spell? He would probably banned me if I tried to play something like this.
RAW are you able to break up Eldritch blast and walk in between beams? If so this does make these strategies really powerful!
love the flavour of the build. like gravity pulling enemies into the Quasar. Chefs kiss!
With my Dragonborn I carry oil flasks tied to my belt so I can detach and drop them with an Interaction and set it on fire with my breath, grappling my enemy to drag them to the area and take 5 fire dmg on my turn and their turn
How are you moving between Eldritch Blast beams in @8:40 ? Shouldn't it be a single casting meaning all targets must be chosen at time of casting and no moving between blasts?
I haven't seen the gauntlet but with those roles I don't think you're gonna make it, still rooting for you though, lol.
Fantastic video. I love the analysis.
A rules question, in round 2 you moved between casting eldritch blast beams. I've always assumed this to be illegal since instead of extra attack which allows this option it's all one spell cast just with multiple beams. Am i wrong on this?
No, you're right according to RAW. It is a common houserule, though.
I watched this video before going to sleep… Not a good idea XD
I really enjoy watching this, it has become clear that a non-caster probably will not succeed though. That first fight needs caster AoE or some kind of bottleneck/terrain that a melee hero could utilise, at least if they want to get through that first level intact... although, that said, the gauntlet is supposed to be hard, and an open field fight on bad terrain is a fair thing to test.
Sounds like a challenge to me, if you can deal enough damage with each swing (without expenditure of resources) I think it might be possible
A melee build gets a caster sidekick, and it's WAY more powerful than the other sidekicks, packing spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph.
@@Bilbrons-and-Dragons if it focused on control and could keep itself safe while the melee tanked hits. Without defensive features though, it's probably going to get ragdolled due to not being able to catch everything. Even if it catches the sharks it's not really going to be free to concentrate. "Kill the wizard" is a DM mentality. And enough attacks will do it, even with shield and misty step. A sidekick caster just isn't going to survive the way a true caster will in an open field while surrounded.
You know s*it got real when a paladin says he doesn't have burst damage. 😱
Optimized paladin doesn't use smites. The Aura is the important part.
You need to put those dice in jail for all those nat 1s.
Hell yes, excited for this!
I kinda want to try this with a ultra long range build
Maybe the phantom rogue build here but with sharpshooter and a longbow so you can attack from 600ft away
With tabaxi to retreat?
@@abcrasshadow9341 no with elf for longbow proficiency, fire damage cantrips and elven accuracy.
I’m going to take ritual caster and get phantom steed for that.
i'm not sure if that would work out as well during the underwater combat; even with steady aim, you'd be rolling straight, couldn't shoot beyond 150ft either way and would need your allies to survive in melee with your target to get sneak attacks. that would also render elven accuracy pointless.
doing it with a crossbow you could do it as usual, but only from 100ft normal range (and i think they'd be able to engage in melee pretty soon, considering you are slowed down in water AND need to make the mount use disengage when they dash up)
@@derimperator3847 but this also includes ritual caster, and you could get a familiar from that to help you with
When is the next video coming out?
Given how close the HP situation was I would think that Twilight Cleric would have been the play...
He didn't wanted to be that dirty. Twilight is a broken subclass. It would invalidate his victory if he used twilight.
@@zaladar1 Its an optimization test... And Twilight is still a legal subclass to use.
Many people feel like the paladin Aura is broken... But here it is in use... smh
I will cuntinue to watch all your 5e content :)
As a paladin you could try to abuse your 1st lvl Ceremony spell to add a free 1d4 to all ability checks and saving throws and +2 AC to you and your sidekicks for that oneshot
Marry them all.
Been used in other gauntlets
Chris does not only love halflings, he NEEDS halflings! 😜
I want to test an Yuan ti pureblood 11th OathBreaker Paladin/ 3 Genie Tomelock or 3 lvl Hexblade Bladelock with Polearm master and magic initiate with Fog Cloud with fiend sidekicks
Question- once the orc had a successful saving throw vs the Dreadful glare, he would be immune from the glare for the next 24 hours for all mummies, so he shouldn’t have been almost paralyzed a second time ( and saved “favored of the gods” for future use ) ?
What bothers me is that it wasn't solo, there were still NPCs helping. Come on, Chris, just pretend it's a build for Iron Chef...
I love this video.
Looking forward to this!
I noticed Chris didn’t need warcaster here for shield, but do you guys think it’s worth burning the feat for a sword and board pally w/ hexdip?
This sort of overview is so much fun to watch. Any chance you can do more of these somehow?
Yeah, the additional information of having 10 minutes between encounters, and the few spell slots you could've saved from the first encounter can definitely snowball into determining success or failure. On the other hand though, your poor luck, which isn't something you can factor in, definitely played a big role as well xD. That and the DM rolling well. Good first video though.
I wonder if you could have telikinetic yourself out of grapple without a save as I believe forced movement breaks grapples
Can you move between shots of eldritch blast? Seems like they would all happen at once, as it’s not an attack but casting a spell
I haven't seen the gauntlet but with those roles I don't think you're gonna make it, still rooting for you though, lol.
I'm glad I started watching the gauntlet but stop before combat started, because having you give commentary to it I feel like is a better way to absorb this. [Also considering how long combat 1 is, you could have broken it up into rounds for easy navigation.]
8:40 you can move in between eldritch blasts like multi attack? Or am I missing something else?
I wishy old gaming groups had this level of teamwork.😮
This was wild!! It really highlights why, as a DM, I hate spirit guardians! LOL
This format is pretty awesome! Have to try with different systems that handle combat better
Hi Chris. Ive suggested to Colby that he might like to have a try of the gauntlet....
I have a similar but better build that can beat it. How does one get a shot?
Was there no OAs in these combats? I keep hearing about water wraiths pulling back and the wraiths moving into the floors.....shouldn't there have been some OAs provoked?
technically the wraiths were still within reach as they went into the stone, just behind total cover as well
and the water weirds are invisible in water, so they can't provoke attacks of opportunity that rely on eyesight
Gas
Does Agonizing Blast not count towards hydra's "fire damage no grow head"???
No, since it doesn't deal fire damage
And have they released episode 2? hopefully soon.
A build like this just makes me cry for a classless system. I’ve tried to build a large point-buy feature list, but I don’t always write down my ideas and when I sit down to make a list I can’t think of anything. I end up copying my top picks from other systems.
Synergies are soo powerful, point buy would be a nightmare to balance.
Chris, I want your thoughts on a statement you made around @5:45 where you say it would have been better if your allies *lost* initiative.
But isn't winning initiative just the same in the round order as losing it, with the clear benefit of having the dodge action on round 1?
In either case, after the first round, you alternate turns.
It's not as if losing initiative would give you an extra action economy.
Yes, but dodge didn't really gain anything, and the sidekicks needed to stay in Paladin aura. If the sidekicks had gone after the monsters, the monsters may have moved forward into range so that the sidekicks could have both attacked and stay in aura.
Glad even you make mistakes. Good luck
How much freaking damage did SG do... Good lord.
Spirit Guardians question:
The spell says it triggers "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there".
Here in play, it is triggered when the creature is pulled in during Kwayzar's turn. Shouldn't the trigger occur later?
"on A turn" not "on it's turn". It doesn't matter who's turn it is. In fact, multiple people can drag enemies out and back into the spirit guardians on their turns, triggering the saving throw each time.
Its said that the sidekicks were given to Chris. Did he not get to choose what he got? Does every Gauntlet combatant have the same kenku and orc?
Every gauntlet has the same sidekicks depending on your primary role. There are 3, expert, warrior and mage.
Kobayashi Maru
Nah, more like a proper challenge. And I'm glad to read that they are still refining it.
@@blshouse I wonder how many different scenarios are in the simulation Gauntlet.
Im not sure what the full rules are but if vadalken was allowed i think it would shine here.
Vedalkens are allowed
Mike should run the side kicks
I know Spirit Guardians has a range, but doesn't it technically target self, so wouldn't it be double damage from the Steed?
My understanding is that for spells with a range of self and then a listed range, the caster is just the point of origin. This disqualifies spells like spirit guardians from applying to find steed's wording of "targets only you"
@@pearlhoff8888 ah, ok
I really struggle to see how anyone could beat this (although a look at the discord shows people have).
In order to not get swarmed to death, it feels like you need strong battlefield control and mobility options, but you also need to be doing the damage.
My best guess so far is to use a summoning spell. The summon can eat a ton of enemy actions and they typically last long enough to make it into a second combat. A lot of them - like the elementals - are immune to many of the conditions that can insta-kill you.
From there I think you have to spam blast spells while enemies are bunched up. Those reef sharks in particular were looking very vulnerable.
@Mogalixir There are a ton of Spirit Guardians builds as well, with people predominantly focusing on not being hit. So the game play loop becomes cast Spirit Guardians, dodge and slowly widdle away the encounters
The difference between that and what Chris is doing in play is he is actively trying to advance the game state rather than dodging and waiting for the game to end
Loved this!
Thank you!