I practice both Shotokan karate and an offshoot version of shingitai jujitsu (heavily based on judo and bjj, with some striking mixed in) I absolutely love your videos and your traditional and practical approach to karate.
The modern sport applications for judo throws are designed to throw people who are trained to defend throws in competition. Against an untrained thrower, it would be easy to throw them as they would not be able to stop the throw. The objective for sport is to put the opponent on their back. Without committing one's body to the throw, it's not going to work in sport judo. It hard to get a clean throw on an experienced judoka like it is for the untrained karate to hit a well trained one. In a self defense situation, I would say that the judoka who gets his hands on an attacker would't have to commit his or her body as their opponent would not have the know how to deal with being thrown by a good judoka.
+Richard Trammell Yeah, this isn't really an example of stylistic technical differences, it's just an example of training focus. It also misrepresents the tactical approach to throwing. Putting someone on the floor isn't the main aim of throwing (although it's a useful by product for creating an opening to escape). As Kodokan Judo people will tell you the purpose of throwing people is "to hit them with the planet" and they are looking to put you on your head and neck, not your back.
+Sifuben Thanks for the feedback. I agree with the points raised. It’s a 10 minute video which obviously can’t cover everything, but it you read the text that goes with the video you can see that I did try to be clear that this was indeed on training focus not technique (1) and that throwing to finish was discussed (2). I hope that helps clarify where I was coming from. It’s not that anything is “misrepresented” but simply not discussed in the video (although it was in the text that goes with it). Unfotunately short clips are always going to be incomplete in some way. Thanks once again for the feedback. (1) - “This is not so much a technical comparison as a tactical comparison … Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).” (2) - “Differences not discussed in this clip - although they were covered at the event - include getting up vs. securing a hold, safe landings vs. landings to finish, etc.”
I found this one interesting as I trained in a style that was a combination of classic Judo (like 1940's when my instructor learned it) and Shorin Ryu (1960's fom Ansei Ueshiro) which my instructor combined to create his own style. I agree with many of the points you raise. One other thing I would like to point out was in the Karate throws we trained in, the trajectory of the landing tended to arc more vertical with the head landing first as opposed to the Judo throws which the trajectory tended to land the person more horizontally.
I thought that the horizontal landing of judo was a measure of safety done by the tori for the benefit of his training partner and also as technique of uke.
I really enjoy Iain's videos. I hope to train with him if he ever come near St. Louis, MO. However, I have to disagree with him on some things in this video. Nothing against him or what he says. But the comparison was karate throws VS sports judo. Sports judo is not Kano's judo. Traditional judo was for self defense. There was atemi waza in judo. It is not part of the sport. The strikes were part of judo. It was used to set up throws. They were used after a throw. Also judo throws are taught that you throw the person and remain standing while still grasping the attackers arm. You hold onto it as a precursor to your follow up. Bun in competition you throw yourself to land on top of your opponent. This is to take some of the wind of of an attacker that doesn't know how to fall and in competition to lead you into a pin, choke, or joint lock if you don;t get a Ippon with the throw. So the follow up is part of the equation. Even if standing after doing osoto gari after striking the person you would still have the arm in order to to do an arm bar like the one Rousey uses in mma juju gatame. having trained in judo and being taught judo as a traditional art over Olympic judo and also being taught karate (Matsubayahsi Ryu - Shorin Ryu)for self defense and not tournament, there are not much differences in the two. Yes there is a bigger emphasis on throwing in judo that in most karate dojo. Therefore Ian is correct the Judoka is often going to be more highly developed in throwing for the most part. There are always exceptions to the rule. Back to Ippon seo nage if a judoka was testing and went to the ground it would not look good for them on the test. The judoka should be in enough control and have enough balance not to go to the ground with the Uke. You only go to the ground in judo if you lost your balance or you are attempting to control the person once they have hit the ground. Then you are supposed to follow up with a pin, choke, or joint lock. In competition you know it is one on one. In self defense you should be aware that there is the possibility of more than one attacker.
+Eliteguardian Presa Thanks for the feedback and the kind words. I don’t think we disagree, and it may help if you read the text that goes with the video (copied below): “Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus) … It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.” I hope that helps clarify that I was talking about modern competitive throwing. “You only go to the ground in judo if you lost your balance or you are attempting to control the person once they have hit the ground.” The first part of the sentence would not be true for competitive judo where most throws involve going to the floor (no rule considers it a “poorer” throw for having done so); so not through loss of balance, but deliberate high levels of drive and rotation. My training in judo was competitively focussed and going to the floor was actively encouraged on many throws (including during testing) because it was felt the standing versions lacked the drive to be effective against a skilled thrower. Self-defence wise, we should never go to the floor to control, and if we do lose balance the aim should be to regain an upright position as quickly as possible; as opposed to seeking control and submission as one would in competition. I have trained in Judo and have a massive amount of respect for the system. My comments in the video are in no way a negative critique. I personally believe judo throws are the most highly developed that there is, I love the system, and I hope that comes across in the video. My main message was that we can’t divorce objective from method and hence the high level throws of competitive judo are tactically inappropriate for self-defence. I hope that helps clarify. All the best, Iain
+practicalkatabunkai Thank you for the explanation. Of course we don't have the text that goes along with the video. I only spoke up because most people only view judo as a sport just like many today view karate as a sport or tournament karate. Judoo was self defense. Dr. Kano was against using judo as a sport. But later after much pressure from those in his circle allow judo to be used in sports. Judo was the 1st martial art that I began to learn. We were taught self defense application first and competing secondarily. We were taught ippon seo nage as the attacker attempt to strike and we use the momentum of the strike instead of stopping it with force we used it to throw them with ippon seo nage. We would use osoto gari when the attacker pulls we use that momentum to throw them backwards (maximum efficiency with minimum effort). The off balancing was suing what was already given to us and taking it further without resistance. My objection was only with the terminology used in the video and the perceived viewpoint that judo is competition. I have the objection when I hear people talk about karate and only see karate as striking because this is what is seen in competition. They do view it is having any or little self defense value. I heard that about judo when I first began. This was long ago as I've been doing this for over 30 years. Today my focus is on learning as much as I can about my art from bunkai. As far as the kind words I meant everyone. You are an awesome instructor. I enjoy your teachings. I head from another instructor that you were coming to Kansas. We were supposed to go. It would be a nice drive for us, but it would have been worth it. But I never heard anything back from him so I don't know if you came or not. There are a few other instructors that I would love to train with someday given the opportunity.
+practicalkatabunkai Iain, I think his point is that the comparison is unfair because you compare the self defense merits of a traditional martial art with that of a martial sport. The only thing to learn from that is that sports aren't ideal for self defense. A better comparison would be sports karate and judo, or traditional karate and jujutsu. I love the videos and show them to my friends. Keep up the great work.
TheSilence1 I would agree. But after seeing the text i understand why he compared the two. The comparison is the differences between sport and self defense. The intent is different and the methodology is different. These are two different worlds/ What is practical for sport is not practical or advantageous for self defense. The general public is so caught up in mma today that they believe that is learning self defense. Sure they use some of the same techniques. But the applications, intent and purpose are all different. If we do some of the things taught in competition it could get you killed if the person attacking you were trying to kill or cause harm to you. They are good techniques and good strategies. But they are good for what they are good for. Martial arts are tools. A hammer is a good tool for hitting a nail and driving it through a board. A screw driver is a good tool. But it is not good for hitting a nail. It is good for turning a screw.
These points are all valid. However, the video was made primarily for traditional karateka (that’s who I was teaching when it was filmed) and looks to compare the throws of their art with the judo throws they are most likely to be exposed to i.e. the methods of modern competition. As I say, this is not a value judgement; just a matter of using the right tool for the job. I also know that a comparison of traditional judo and traditional karate would be different; but, as I say, that’s not the comparison that was being made. The video text covered this, but it seems it would have been wiser for me to explicitly state it in the video itself: “It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.” I’ll ensure to rely less on text to explain the purpose of such videos in the future. Thank you for the feedback.
Like I said, Judo and BJJ are family members in martial arts history. I hadn't known the Gracies had any contact with straight up Jujutsu, considering that was a Samurai art, was it not? Like, armored combat and with/without weapons?
So Karate throws are a lot more like throwing in Shuai Jiao then basically. At least from a tactical basis. Very interesting analysis, thank you for sharing.
@@raymondfrye5017 Cool, to know although I wasn't commenting on the throws themselves you find many also are the same in judo, jiu-jitsu some freestyle wrestling etc. More the tactics. In Shuai-jiao going to the ground is discouraged. Ideally you want throw you opponent while maintaining your balance and staying in your feet. We see this attitude expressed in Shuai-jiao competition. Where the higher scoring throws are landed while staying on your feet. While a successful throw that sees you land in top of your opponent gets you a lower score (you must land on top if you fall with your opponent or throw doesn't count.) I don't 100% advocate for this in BJJ I found that someone and then landing heavily on them was a good way to soften someone up to advance position.
@@christulloch3473 Yes,I know what you mean. I remember Combat Expert Donn Draeger. He said Shuai Jiao was 1880's jujitsu because it was all standing-up techniques. Judo ,on the other hand, had more sporting aspects so that _uke and tori_ could go to the ground. In real combat you'd be killed on the ground.
Howdy just a fun thing i just put together is the folding screen is a throw I have been using in my bunkai for heian shodan(pinan nidan) the opening gedan barai and oitsuki. I had not made the connection until the end of the video lol.
strike first then apply a throwing or grappling technique. I remember when I trained in Combat Aikido where we did Atemi (strike) before applying the grappling or throwing technique. The strike could be a spear hand strike to the eyes, a vertical punch to the face or a extended knuckle strike to the breast before we apply the technique. Like for instance in this video on the shoulder throw, a extended knuckle strike to the breast bone could be done before the striking hand goes below the out stretched arm of the opponent for the shoulder throw; or after applying a throw it could be follow-up by a kick or punch to the downed opponent and then go for strangulation or choke.
My sifu once told me that 'sport' grappling and throwing is to lead into the rolling and falling techniques that are trained. It's competitive, yes, but designed to not wreck or hurt the opponent. Whereas combative grappling/throwing is the equivalent of a bad fall. The technique/method itself is the 'attack' as the victim slams into the ground, any follow up is just icing on the cake. If one was to do the O-Goshi or Tai-Otoshi and follow the target down to make him/her land face or head first instead of rotating him/her to land on their side/back, you probably won't need any follow up, and also might need a lawyer on hand for the legal aftermath.
I was once in a big brawl, bottles and chains flailing arround and everything... I got someone in a rear naked choke... That person grabbed me by the hair and did some kind of modified seoi nage... I fell on my hips, but i couldnt breath for a while anyway... He didnt even need a follow up, i could not even move for like... 30 minutes...
Don't know how I found you, but I'm glad I did! I know I'm really late to this party, but I have to say it's one of the best explanations I've ever heard/seen, and like you I've been at this for a minute or two :). Humbly, if I may...I do have one question for you sir. Since we all know that we "fight like we train", what is the purpose of having the person performing the Osoto Gari (Person #1) paying attention to the head of the person being thrown (Person #2)? You first mention taking care his head doesn't hit at 5:55, and holding the head at 8:10. Is care for an attacker's head something that a European needs to concern himself with in a self defense situation? Or, since this may be a class with at least a few new folks, is this more just a way of protecting your students, perhaps just ensuring everyone goes home without headaches? I'm asking because if I'm in a fight (as an American mind you) and I'm #1, my line of thinking would be more along the line that I don't care about #2's head...it's his responsibility to learn to tuck his chin and protect himself. This therefore means I wouldn't want to train that way for fear of muscle memory kicking in at the wrong time. Thank you for this very detailed and rather complete instruction here, God Bless.
Thank you! It’s mainly a safety in training thing so the throw isn’t executed in a way that would make a safe breakfall difficult / impossible i.e. if the head is pushed / struck backward the recipient can’t tuck their chin in. Self-defence also requires us to have options when it comes to scaling force. It’s therefore good to know how to execute the throw in a variety of ways. We sometimes get the false choice of get harmed (don’t defend yourself effectively) or go to jail (use grossly excessive force). However, we can defend ourselves effectively and legally. I hope that helps.
I know its an old video. But I enjoyed it. I will try and film and send to you how we in Shidokan Shorinryu do the throws you are demonstrating. I think you would really enjoy it. Love your videos. Thanks for sharing.
Ian I really enjoy your videos and often post them to my Facebook group - friends of judo and jujitsu. I posted this one with the comment that while I thought it was a good discussion of the difference between throwing in a sport context vs a fight, I really disagree with your characterization of how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense. This is not surprising as probably a majority of judoka nowadays are clueless of judo beyond the IJF competition rules. But this is a phenomenon that is only about 50 years old. In the 1970s when I started judo, my 1st instructor still taught self defense, and many mid century judo books deal with atemi, kyusho, and standing joint locks. There seems to be a growing interest in judo’s more complete art, what it was intended to be. I think you would find that throwing as applied in self defense would be closer to what you associate with karate.
Hi Jonathan, YOU WROTE: I really enjoy your videos and often post them to my Facebook group” Thank you! YOU WROTE: “I really disagree with your characterization of how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense” This is the second such comment today, so I’m going to cut and paste a little, but the key point is this video is not about “how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense.” That’s not the topic of the video. It’s a comparison of the throws of sport judo with those of traditional karate. I did try to make sure this distinction was clear. For example, these bits in the description for the video: “Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).” “It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.” The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are: 1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised. 2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka. 3) Sport judo is by far and a way the most commonly practised form of judo today. 4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to. It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video. There is, therefore, no “characterization of how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense” in the video :-) It’s a comparison of methods of sport judo with pragmatic karate. The video has nothing to say on how judo would be applied to self-protection. That’s not the focus of the video for the aforementioned reasons. I’m not in disagreement that the older style of judo did include elements and methodologies missing from sport today; and that such methods have value in a self-protection context (I say so in the text). The comments received today seem to be focused on “sport judo compared to traditional judo”; whereas my video is about “sport judo compared to traditional karate.” If I was to make the video again, I would include an explicit statement at the start in order to avoid the confusion that has arisen. It seems the introductory text isn’t read as much as I’d assumed. My bad. I hope that helps clarify and will encourage others to watch again with the stated intent in mind. Maybe post this text in the Facebook group too if you think it will help? All the best, Iain
Brilliant Video. I spent 20 years saying, 'No Judo is the BEST' I spent 20 years training Judo only. About to eat my words now as I am now about to start Karate.
it is a well known fact that Karate in Okinawa evolved as a combination of Southern Chinese wushu styles (i.e. Tiger Crane) and Japanese jujutsu techniques brought by a samurai clan that occupied Okinawa. This how come there so many jujutsu techniques in Karate katas that majority see as some sort of obscure moves
I enjoyed this, but think that some misconceptions arising from various techniques shown and statements made in the video need to be cleared up. First, and most important (and correct me if I am wrong), you seem to be comparing Karate for self-defence/violent unarmed confrontation with Judo for sport/competition. This is like comparing the proverbial apples and oranges, and therefore makes much of the comparisons you draw between Karate and Judo throwing mostly nonsensical. Second, I agree that "the ground should never be sought" in a confrontation. Unfortunately, apparently 95% of physical confrontations end up on the ground, so it behooves anyone thinking that they might get involved in a physical confrontation to learn at least some basic groundwork. Third, I have certainly been taught in Judo that one of the options for doing O Soto Gari (Osoto Gari, if you prefer that way of presenting the transliteration) is to push upwards and into one's opponent's chin with one's right fist (if doing a right-stance OSG). This is a fine way of controlling the head (which I think was part of your point), and contributes to unbalancing one's opponent. So, it is not true that this kind of technique occurs rarely in Judo. Fourth, also relating to O Soto Gari, I have NEVER been taught to follow through on O Soto Gari by dropping to the knee, which you claim is "the first version of the throw you learn", and I have never seen that taught or shown anywhere in a Judo dojo as part of sparring (it might be in the Kata, but if it is, I would agree, it is not practical as a self-defence technique). Actually, we are taught to either strike (Atemi - which is contained in Judo kata), or to come down on the opponent's ribs like a tonne of bricks on the follow up from OSG, if that position presents itself (usually, from OSG, one would find oneself one one's feet, several feet beyond / past one's opponent). Both falling onto the ribs, or to strike the opponent as follow-ups to OSG, are sound self-defence moves. Regarding your point, "They [i.e., Judoka] don't value stability in the way that we [i.e., Karateka] do; they value the throw more", there are several things to be said about this: (A) maintaining one's own balance/stability on one's feet is the pre-requisite for attacking in Judo; (B) unbalancing one's opponent is seen as a valuable thing to do (i.e., yes, to throw them), but is not the exclusive way that Judoka are taught to approach things; (C) various Judo techniques can be applied while standing (e.g., arm locks). Finally, I think that it is worth saying that throws executed properly can have catastrophic (sometimes fatal) effects, if one does not do these safely, and with one's partner's safety in mind - being hit by the Planet, by way of using gravity, is an extremely effective form of dealing with one's opponent, if one can accomplish it (although there is a high learning curve in Judo).
YOU WROTE: “I enjoyed this …” Thank you! YOU WROTE: “… but think that some misconceptions arising from various techniques shown and statements made in the video need to be cleared up.” Likewise. I think you’ve misunderstood the premise of the video, and therefore your comments are at crossed purposes. I don’t dispute much of that you say, but we are discussing different things. YOU WROTE: “First, and most important (and correct me if I am wrong), you seem to be comparing Karate for self-defence/violent unarmed confrontation with Judo for sport/competition.” You’re right, and I was clear on this. For example, this bit of the description for the video: “Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).” The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are: 1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised. 2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka. 3) Sport judo is by far and a way the most commonly practised form of judo today. 4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to. It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video. Much of your comments are based on a non-sporting version of judo; but that’s not the focus of the video. We both agree that sport judo and non-sporting judo are not the same, therefore many of the comments are not relevant to the video … nor are they disputed; but that’s a different discussion i.e. “sport judo compared to traditional judo” (your comments) as opposed to “pragmatic karate compared to sport judo” (my video). I hope that helps clarify where I’m coming from and why. YOU WROTE: “I agree that "the ground should never be sought" in a confrontation. Unfortunately, apparently 95% of physical confrontations end up on the ground, so it behooves anyone thinking that they might get involved in a physical confrontation to learn at least some basic groundwork.” It’s important that readers of this thread know I never said otherwise. While I don’t agree with that much repeated “statistic”, I do agree that any martial artist with a self-protection focus should study basic ground-work. Real situations can go to the ground (it’s definitely not 19 out of every 20 situations, but it is common enough that it needs serious consideration) and that needs to be trained for … I never said otherwise, and that part of your post can be read to infer that I may have. My point was that any method that deliberately seeks the ground is inappropriate in a self-protection context (see this video for lots of examples: th-cam.com/video/apahr0ujVJU/w-d-xo.html ). They remain very useful and effective in other contexts of course (fun too!). As I say, I’m not disagreeing with much of what you wrote, and I hope that is clear to other readers and viewers. However, I do think you’ve misunderstood the nature of the actual comparison being made and the reasoning behind it. As I say, I do hope this clarifies. All the best, Iain
Sport judo can be very useful in learning all kinds of things, we just need to be mindful of context and objective. I trained in sport judo and found it to be hugely beneficial in improving throws, learning now to avoid throws, ground work, etc. But the actions you’d take in a mutual fight are not the same as is required for non-consensual criminal violence. There is no “one size fits all” method that is the ideal fit for all possible forms of conflict. We always need to be mindful of context and decide what aspects are appropriate and what are not.
To get good at self-defence, you need to train specifically for self-defence. You need to know about things like the law, de-escalation, escape, dynamics of crime, etc. Martial arts generally focus solely on the physical; and even then it’s normally about beating a fellow martial artist in a consensual exchange. As opposed to escaping criminals when facing non-consensual violence. Judo is superb when it comes to developing functional grappling skills; but these skills would need to be correctly contextualised and put within the larger self-protection skill set. It certainly helped me, but I mainly enjoyed learning judo for its own inherent values.
i agree with that, karatekas are very worried about grappling and break falls, sure context is different but throws are the same. Bja judo is more sport and want you to sacrifice yourself for a through, but the aim is to get the person on the ground while your standing, just look at the rules, bjc are more in traditional judo, less competition, more Technic no grip fighting till dan grade, as they see it pointless and interferes with technical training. bjc is British judo council, bja British judo association. . I would never say do not do cross training and judo is excellent for it, as Ian says, there are lots of problems with both arts, but then it is all about context. The throws and break falls taught in a karate class are not as good as judo class but then, if you have a dan grade in judo who is a dan grade in karate you will get best of both worlds.
Great video. Overall, very well reasoned. However, it seems that he overlooked the floor combat component of judo. It is very important, and a vital aspect of competition. If a throw doesn't amount to a propper ippon, the combat follows on the ground, and a well rounded judoka is expected to transition to the ground and carry on fighting there with ease.
As a karateka and judoka, if i would be very accademical in both arts on the throws here, i would have some very thin points to discuss on the technics here in both points of view. But averall, i quite agree in all what you say and show here. I have just one point i would not quite agree , or perhaps just add one point. Ok, we have to avoid the ground in self defense, because of what you said. 100 % agree with that, nothing to discuss…BUT : you can be in the situation of you are thrown in the ground. In this case, you have to know at least some basic ground work to have one chance to escape. That is why now i teach my karate students some basis of ground work in judo and jjb. But as you said in some responses here, the right tool, in the right situation and context. I see that you come in my land in a few months, but saddely i won t be there at that Time. I Hope once to practice in one of your seminars.
I 100% agree with that. The ground is a bad place to be in self-defence, which is why we would never deliberately seek to go there. Throws that would deliberately put us on the ground are therefore an inappropriate option. However, as the Japanese saying goes, “even monkeys can fall out of trees.” If we do end up of the floor, despite out best efforts to keep off it, then we do need the core ground skills to help us get back up as soon as possible. Funakoshi, etc talk about practising such methods when training on Okinawa so there is an historical precedent for that as well as a practical need. While not the topic of this video, it is my view that all karateka who which effectively cover self-defence should practise the basics of ground fighting precisely for that reason. Don’t seek the floor (because it’s a bad place to be) but practise the ground skills needed to help get back up (also, because the ground is a bad place to be). Thanks for the kind words and the comment!
Yeah, it seems that grappling was preferred against armored opponents. This seems to be focused on in European martial arts, too, when out grappling your opponent could allow for opening his visor for a knife. Or having him surrender so you can collect a large ransom from your prisoner of war ;)
Judoka, in the words of Joe Rogan are ''chimp strong''. Maybe sport judo needs some modifications for self-defense, but even still, I would NOT want to get a fight with a Judoka over a hard surface, or even like a bar where there are chairs and things to fall on. I'd fight the karate expert 9/10 before an equivalent experienced Judoka. 99/100 if they are from a sport karate school.
Most judoka are indeed strong and well-conditioned. Their training methods are very functional too. I would agree that in a consensual exchange the judoka would have a significant advantage over the karateka because once the grip is established it is difficult to break free to the striking range that would favour the karateka. This would therefore allow the judoka to dominate. However, when it comes to self-protection we need to think in terms of criminal behaviour and the methodology best placed to deal with that, as opposed to superimposing the goals and methodology of martial arts onto that behaviour. In a one-on-one consensual fight, the methodology of judo (as most widely practised) is likely to be highly effective. In non-consensual criminal violence, you need methods that create space and facilitate escape (i.e. the tactically appropriate use of striking). You also need to consider third parties (40% of violent crime in the UK, where those involved are not related, involve more than one assailant) and therefore a default methodology that involves locking onto one person and taking them to the floor is problematic ( th-cam.com/video/apahr0ujVJU/w-d-xo.html ) in that context. As I’m always at pains to point out in discussions like these, it’s not “better or worse”, but “appropriate or inappropriate”. The specific goal dictates the optimum strategy, the strategy determines the tactics, and the tactics determine the choice of technique. Change the goal and everything else changes. Avoiding harm from criminal activity is a significantly different goal from winning a fight.
@@practicalkatabunkai Sensei Ian, thank you for such a detailed, well thought out reply. I am a very big fan of yours, and that reply made my week, arigatou gozaimasu sir! I have to say that I agree 100% with your reply, if one assumes you are comparing Karate and striking as you teach it to Judo. My response was based more on what is typically taught these days in the USA as 'Karate' and all that implies. Also, by 'fight' what I meant is referring to my experience 'street fighting'. My idea of a street fight is based upon going about with my fellow soldiers in Sachsenhausen Germany back almost 35 years ago. We'd head out on Friday and Saturday nights looking to have fun, 'fun' defined as trying to find girls (top priority) and if that failed, then we'd be looking to fight. These fights were more scuffles where you were not out to hurt anyone, but just more like young bulls locking horns. Then, come Monday, either way it went we'd of course enhance the stories quite a bit 😁😋. What you were talking about in your response is a vastly different thing, nothing at all like the 'fights' of my youth. These are very dangerous situations whereas the perpetrators are out to do real harm to you for many reasons. As you said, going to the ground can be a death sentence (you said problematic 😁) for sure. In that case, you probably not likely to be attacked by trained martial artist as I would like to think that martial arts do as much for the character of the person as hand-to-hand ability. And the type of Karate you teach, is very appropriate for that type attack. If just larking about in horseplay, Judo is more appropriate. See, I did learn something from your video and reply 😁😎. Most of us do. Thanks again for your response, I look forward to one day attending a training seminar with you👍🤠👍!
You are comparing the TRADITIONAL KARATE with the MODERN JUDO where the aim is mostly the submission. If you see photo from judo around 1905, you will see that this difference disappear. In the modern judo, which is sport, the concept is the submission, not the self defence or the fight for survival, so that's why if the environment changes, also the method changes. Up to you to consider if we can still speak about judo when we see olympic games.
That’s definitely right. I make the same point in the text that goes with the video: “It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.” The video was made primarily for traditional karateka and looks to compare the throws of their art with the judo throws they are most likely to be exposed to i.e. the methods of modern competition. As I say, this is not a value judgement; just a matter of using the right tool for the job.
By the way i wanted to write you in private oon the FB and i don't know how to do. Just i had a curiosity for one point, political not technical. Thanks for answering :)
Judo was developed to preserve the uke, the real throws in a self defense application do not drop the uke on his back but rather drive the opponent forcibly into the ground, preferably head first. An ippon is a symbolic kill and properly executed requires no follow up technique. Obviously we cannot do this in practice so the forms have been modified. Kano understood that being skillful requires practicing against active opposition and avoiding injury so he modified accordingly. We cannot look at a modern sport and derive the original art in much the same way that we cannot apply other martial sports equipment and techniques into a functional self defence system e.g. Darts, javelin, hammer throw and discus to name a few.
Respectfully . You could not be more wrong . First you have to remember that the all the throws in Shotokan Came from the Kodokan and all the strikes in Judo (Goshin Jitsu/self defense )came from the Shotokan .To think for one second that Judoka cant modify their technique in a fistfight is ludicrous at best and delusional . Your showing Olympic Judo competition where Judo rules are being used .Compare Judo in MMA and you would be presenting a clearer picture . Dont delude others and yourself Rey Garcia .Nidan Kempo Karate 2x East Coast Karate Champion . Yodan Kodokan Judo .2x East Coast Judo Chämpion World Masters Judo Champion 1999 100k kg 2005 Bronze. Reno Gracie Invt champion 2008 and Renzo Gracie Back Belt .Former Head Judo and Asst BJJ and MMA Coach NYC BJJ Team Reno Gracie and American Top Team . Cirrent head BJJ ad MMA Coach MMA Fighter Club Danang Vietnam .Head Newaza inst Danang Judo Team Vietnam Detective NYPD (ret) Fugitive Enforcement Division
Thanks for the feedback. I think you may need to rewatch the video as it seems you are confused on a few issues. You said: “First you have to remember that the all the throws in Shotokan Came from the Kodokan and all the strikes in Judo (Goshin Jitsu/self defense )came from the Shotokan.” That’s incorrect. Karate had throws in it long before it came into contact with Judo. The throws in karate come from many sources. A cursory glance at the older tests clearly demonstrates this. Shotokan is just one of many styles of karate, but if you read Gichin Funakoshi’s works (the founder of Shotokan) you can see the karate throws there and he explains the history. The section on “Tegumi” (indigenous Okinawan wrestling) in “Karate-Do: My Way of Life” would be a good place to start. Have a look at the throws in his books too and read what he says about their nature and origins. The assertion the throws came from Judo is incorrect. Away from Shotokan, you may want to read the works on Itoman, Mabuni, the Bubishi, etc too. Karate did not get it’s throwing from Judo. It has it’s own throws and there is loads of historical documentation for this. For example: “The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually just a part of the whole. The fact that those who have learnt karate there feel it only consists of kicks & punches, and that throws & locks are only to be found in judo or jujutsu, can only be put down to a lack of understanding … Those who are thinking of the future of karate should have an open mind and strive to study the complete art” - Kenwa Mabuni Judo also has its own atemi-waza. They come from Kano’s training jujutsu and can be found in the kata of Judo. Again, it’s not correct to say Judo’s strikes came solely from Shotokan. You said: “To think for one second that Judoka cant modify their technique in a fistfight is ludicrous at best and delusional. Your showing Olympic Judo competition where Judo rules are being used.” I suggest you watch the video again. I never said what you think I did. I was talking about the objectives in SPORT judo and I would agree the throws can be adapted. If you also read the text that goes with the video, you can see I was clear it was the way throws are practiced in modern sport judo that I was discussing. Again, I never said the methods could not be adapted. They obviously can be. You said: “Don’t delude others and yourself” With respect, I’m not. You seem to be confused about the message of the video. If you read the text and watch again, you will hopefully see that I was clear it was the methods and objectives of modern sport judo that are being discussed. I have practiced judo and I know the throws can be adapted, because I have made such adaptations myself when reintegrating relevant methods back into the self-defence side of my wider martial practise. I am therefore not “deluded” on that point, nor am I seeking to delude others. Again, if you reread and re-watch, you will hopefully see you have attributed a view to me that I do not hold and did not state. In the text that goes with the video I wrote: "It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video." It seems you missed that. I hope that helps clarify. All the best, Iain
Thanks for the comment. One mistake I made when making this video was assuming people would read the text that goes along with it. That text sets the scene and explains what the video is covering and why. If I was to make this video again, I would include the text in the actual video itself. YOU WROTE: “ … we dont always go down with our partners …” The text that introduces this video states: “It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.” I hope that helps clarify that I was specifically discussing the way the throws are most often applied in judo competition. The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are: 1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised. 2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka. 3) Sport judo is by far and away the most commonly practised form of judo today. 4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to. It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video. The text did make clear that remaining on the feet is certainly something found in judo as a whole, but I failed to appreciate that few people read the accompanying text. I’ll correct that going forward. All the best, Iain
Thanks for the comment. One mistake I made when making this video was assuming people would read the text that goes along with it. That text sets the scene and explains what the video is covering and why. If I was to make this video again, I would include the text in the actual video itself. YOU WROTE: “Youre comparing self defence to a sport. Compare self defence to self defence...” The text that introduces this video states: “Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).” I hope that helps clarify that I was specifically discussing the way the throws are most often applied in judo competition. The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are: 1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised. 2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka. 3) Sport judo is by far and away the most commonly practised form of judo today. 4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to. It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video. Many of the comments are in reference to “sport judo” compared to “traditional judo”; but the whole point of the video was to compare “sport judo” with “pragmatic karate” for the aforementioned reasons. I hope that helps clarify where I’m coming from and the purpose of the video. All the best, Iain
I practice both Shotokan karate and an offshoot version of shingitai jujitsu (heavily based on judo and bjj, with some striking mixed in) I absolutely love your videos and your traditional and practical approach to karate.
The modern sport applications for judo throws are designed to throw people who are trained to defend throws in competition. Against an untrained thrower, it would be easy to throw them as they would not be able to stop the throw. The objective for sport is to put the opponent on their back. Without committing one's body to the throw, it's not going to work in sport judo. It hard to get a clean throw on an experienced judoka like it is for the untrained karate to hit a well trained one. In a self defense situation, I would say that the judoka who gets his hands on an attacker would't have to commit his or her body as their opponent would not have the know how to deal with being thrown by a good judoka.
+Richard Trammell Yeah, this isn't really an example of stylistic technical differences, it's just an example of training focus. It also misrepresents the tactical approach to throwing. Putting someone on the floor isn't the main aim of throwing (although it's a useful by product for creating an opening to escape). As Kodokan Judo people will tell you the purpose of throwing people is "to hit them with the planet" and they are looking to put you on your head and neck, not your back.
+Sifuben Thanks for the feedback. I agree with the points raised. It’s a 10 minute video which obviously can’t cover everything, but it you read the text that goes with the video you can see that I did try to be clear that this was indeed on training focus not technique (1) and that throwing to finish was discussed (2). I hope that helps clarify where I was coming from. It’s not that anything is “misrepresented” but simply not discussed in the video (although it was in the text that goes with it). Unfotunately short clips are always going to be incomplete in some way. Thanks once again for the feedback.
(1) - “This is not so much a technical comparison as a tactical comparison … Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).”
(2) - “Differences not discussed in this clip - although they were covered at the event - include getting up vs. securing a hold, safe landings vs. landings to finish, etc.”
practicalkatabunkai I watched it on Android so the text was not in plain sight.
+Sifuben "hit them with the planet"? Heheh, the one I have heard is "the ground never misses". 🤔☺️
I heard "the ground hits harder than your fist". More straightforward, I guess :D
I found this one interesting as I trained in a style that was a combination of classic Judo (like 1940's when my instructor learned it) and Shorin Ryu (1960's fom Ansei Ueshiro) which my instructor combined to create his own style. I agree with many of the points you raise. One other thing I would like to point out was in the Karate throws we trained in, the trajectory of the landing tended to arc more vertical with the head landing first as opposed to the Judo throws which the trajectory tended to land the person more horizontally.
I thought that the horizontal landing of judo was a measure of safety done by the tori for the benefit of his training partner and also as technique of uke.
I really enjoy Iain's videos. I hope to train with him if he ever come near St. Louis, MO. However, I have to disagree with him on some things in this video. Nothing against him or what he says. But the comparison was karate throws VS sports judo. Sports judo is not Kano's judo. Traditional judo was for self defense. There was atemi waza in judo. It is not part of the sport. The strikes were part of judo. It was used to set up throws. They were used after a throw. Also judo throws are taught that you throw the person and remain standing while still grasping the attackers arm. You hold onto it as a precursor to your follow up. Bun in competition you throw yourself to land on top of your opponent. This is to take some of the wind of of an attacker that doesn't know how to fall and in competition to lead you into a pin, choke, or joint lock if you don;t get a Ippon with the throw. So the follow up is part of the equation. Even if standing after doing osoto gari after striking the person you would still have the arm in order to to do an arm bar like the one Rousey uses in mma juju gatame. having trained in judo and being taught judo as a traditional art over Olympic judo and also being taught karate (Matsubayahsi Ryu - Shorin Ryu)for self defense and not tournament, there are not much differences in the two. Yes there is a bigger emphasis on throwing in judo that in most karate dojo. Therefore Ian is correct the Judoka is often going to be more highly developed in throwing for the most part. There are always exceptions to the rule.
Back to Ippon seo nage if a judoka was testing and went to the ground it would not look good for them on the test. The judoka should be in enough control and have enough balance not to go to the ground with the Uke. You only go to the ground in judo if you lost your balance or you are attempting to control the person once they have hit the ground. Then you are supposed to follow up with a pin, choke, or joint lock. In competition you know it is one on one. In self defense you should be aware that there is the possibility of more than one attacker.
+Eliteguardian Presa Thanks for the feedback and the kind words. I don’t think we disagree, and it may help if you read the text that goes with the video (copied below):
“Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus) … It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.”
I hope that helps clarify that I was talking about modern competitive throwing.
“You only go to the ground in judo if you lost your balance or you are attempting to control the person once they have hit the ground.”
The first part of the sentence would not be true for competitive judo where most throws involve going to the floor (no rule considers it a “poorer” throw for having done so); so not through loss of balance, but deliberate high levels of drive and rotation.
My training in judo was competitively focussed and going to the floor was actively encouraged on many throws (including during testing) because it was felt the standing versions lacked the drive to be effective against a skilled thrower.
Self-defence wise, we should never go to the floor to control, and if we do lose balance the aim should be to regain an upright position as quickly as possible; as opposed to seeking control and submission as one would in competition.
I have trained in Judo and have a massive amount of respect for the system. My comments in the video are in no way a negative critique. I personally believe judo throws are the most highly developed that there is, I love the system, and I hope that comes across in the video. My main message was that we can’t divorce objective from method and hence the high level throws of competitive judo are tactically inappropriate for self-defence.
I hope that helps clarify.
All the best,
Iain
+practicalkatabunkai Thank you for the explanation. Of course we don't have the text that goes along with the video. I only spoke up because most people only view judo as a sport just like many today view karate as a sport or tournament karate. Judoo was self defense. Dr. Kano was against using judo as a sport. But later after much pressure from those in his circle allow judo to be used in sports. Judo was the 1st martial art that I began to learn. We were taught self defense application first and competing secondarily. We were taught ippon seo nage as the attacker attempt to strike and we use the momentum of the strike instead of stopping it with force we used it to throw them with ippon seo nage. We would use osoto gari when the attacker pulls we use that momentum to throw them backwards (maximum efficiency with minimum effort). The off balancing was suing what was already given to us and taking it further without resistance. My objection was only with the terminology used in the video and the perceived viewpoint that judo is competition. I have the objection when I hear people talk about karate and only see karate as striking because this is what is seen in competition. They do view it is having any or little self defense value. I heard that about judo when I first began. This was long ago as I've been doing this for over 30 years. Today my focus is on learning as much as I can about my art from bunkai.
As far as the kind words I meant everyone. You are an awesome instructor. I enjoy your teachings. I head from another instructor that you were coming to Kansas. We were supposed to go. It would be a nice drive for us, but it would have been worth it. But I never heard anything back from him so I don't know if you came or not. There are a few other instructors that I would love to train with someday given the opportunity.
+practicalkatabunkai Iain, I think his point is that the comparison is unfair because you compare the self defense merits of a traditional martial art with that of a martial sport. The only thing to learn from that is that sports aren't ideal for self defense. A better comparison would be sports karate and judo, or traditional karate and jujutsu.
I love the videos and show them to my friends. Keep up the great work.
TheSilence1
I would agree. But after seeing the text i understand why he compared the two. The comparison is the differences between sport and self defense. The intent is different and the methodology is different. These are two different worlds/ What is practical for sport is not practical or advantageous for self defense. The general public is so caught up in mma today that they believe that is learning self defense. Sure they use some of the same techniques. But the applications, intent and purpose are all different. If we do some of the things taught in competition it could get you killed if the person attacking you were trying to kill or cause harm to you. They are good techniques and good strategies. But they are good for what they are good for. Martial arts are tools. A hammer is a good tool for hitting a nail and driving it through a board. A screw driver is a good tool. But it is not good for hitting a nail. It is good for turning a screw.
These points are all valid. However, the video was made primarily for traditional karateka (that’s who I was teaching when it was filmed) and looks to compare the throws of their art with the judo throws they are most likely to be exposed to i.e. the methods of modern competition. As I say, this is not a value judgement; just a matter of using the right tool for the job.
I also know that a comparison of traditional judo and traditional karate would be different; but, as I say, that’s not the comparison that was being made. The video text covered this, but it seems it would have been wiser for me to explicitly state it in the video itself:
“It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.”
I’ll ensure to rely less on text to explain the purpose of such videos in the future. Thank you for the feedback.
the osoto gari illustrated at 5.55 with the palm heel strike to obtain kuzushi is also in street judo.
I learned a non street form in bjj... Probably because of its relation to judo.
Like I said, Judo and BJJ are family members in martial arts history. I hadn't known the Gracies had any contact with straight up Jujutsu, considering that was a Samurai art, was it not? Like, armored combat and with/without weapons?
Great tutorial on the differences of Judo vs. Karate throws. Well done Ian.
So Karate throws are a lot more like throwing in Shuai Jiao then basically. At least from a tactical basis. Very interesting analysis, thank you for sharing.
All the throws of shuai jiao are contained in the Okinawan Goju ryu katas.
@@raymondfrye5017 Cool, to know although I wasn't commenting on the throws themselves you find many also are the same in judo, jiu-jitsu some freestyle wrestling etc.
More the tactics. In Shuai-jiao going to the ground is discouraged. Ideally you want throw you opponent while maintaining your balance and staying in your feet.
We see this attitude expressed in Shuai-jiao competition. Where the higher scoring throws are landed while staying on your feet. While a successful throw that sees you land in top of your opponent gets you a lower score (you must land on top if you fall with your opponent or throw doesn't count.)
I don't 100% advocate for this in BJJ I found that someone and then landing heavily on them was a good way to soften someone up to advance position.
@@christulloch3473 Yes,I know what you mean. I remember Combat Expert Donn Draeger. He said Shuai Jiao was 1880's jujitsu because it was all standing-up techniques.
Judo ,on the other hand, had more sporting aspects so that _uke and tori_ could go to the ground. In real combat you'd be killed on the ground.
Howdy just a fun thing i just put together is the folding screen is a throw I have been using in my bunkai for heian shodan(pinan nidan) the opening gedan barai and oitsuki. I had not made the connection until the end of the video lol.
strike first then apply a throwing or grappling technique. I remember when I trained in Combat Aikido where we did Atemi (strike) before applying the grappling or throwing technique. The strike could be a spear hand strike to the eyes, a vertical punch to the face or a extended knuckle strike to the breast before we apply the technique. Like for instance in this video on the shoulder throw, a extended knuckle strike to the breast bone could be done before the striking hand goes below the out stretched arm of the opponent for the shoulder throw; or after applying a throw it could be follow-up by a kick or punch to the downed opponent and then go for strangulation or choke.
My sifu once told me that 'sport' grappling and throwing is to lead into the rolling and falling techniques that are trained. It's competitive, yes, but designed to not wreck or hurt the opponent. Whereas combative grappling/throwing is the equivalent of a bad fall. The technique/method itself is the 'attack' as the victim slams into the ground, any follow up is just icing on the cake. If one was to do the O-Goshi or Tai-Otoshi and follow the target down to make him/her land face or head first instead of rotating him/her to land on their side/back, you probably won't need any follow up, and also might need a lawyer on hand for the legal aftermath.
I was once in a big brawl, bottles and chains flailing arround and everything... I got someone in a rear naked choke... That person grabbed me by the hair and did some kind of modified seoi nage... I fell on my hips, but i couldnt breath for a while anyway... He didnt even need a follow up, i could not even move for like... 30 minutes...
So well explained... Its unfortunate that most karate places dont teach the traditional and practical uses of karate.. Its all sport based only.
Don't know how I found you, but I'm glad I did! I know I'm really late to this party, but I have to say it's one of the best explanations I've ever heard/seen, and like you I've been at this for a minute or two :).
Humbly, if I may...I do have one question for you sir.
Since we all know that we "fight like we train", what is the purpose of having the person performing the Osoto Gari (Person #1) paying attention to the head of the person being thrown (Person #2)? You first mention taking care his head doesn't hit at 5:55, and holding the head at 8:10.
Is care for an attacker's head something that a European needs to concern himself with in a self defense situation? Or, since this may be a class with at least a few new folks, is this more just a way of protecting your students, perhaps just ensuring everyone goes home without headaches?
I'm asking because if I'm in a fight (as an American mind you) and I'm #1, my line of thinking would be more along the line that I don't care about #2's head...it's his responsibility to learn to tuck his chin and protect himself. This therefore means I wouldn't want to train that way for fear of muscle memory kicking in at the wrong time.
Thank you for this very detailed and rather complete instruction here, God Bless.
Thank you! It’s mainly a safety in training thing so the throw isn’t executed in a way that would make a safe breakfall difficult / impossible i.e. if the head is pushed / struck backward the recipient can’t tuck their chin in. Self-defence also requires us to have options when it comes to scaling force. It’s therefore good to know how to execute the throw in a variety of ways. We sometimes get the false choice of get harmed (don’t defend yourself effectively) or go to jail (use grossly excessive force). However, we can defend ourselves effectively and legally. I hope that helps.
@@practicalkatabunkai Yessir, it does. Thank you very much.
I know its an old video. But I enjoyed it. I will try and film and send to you how we in Shidokan Shorinryu do the throws you are demonstrating. I think you would really enjoy it. Love your videos. Thanks for sharing.
Ian
I really enjoy your videos and often post them to my Facebook group - friends of judo and jujitsu.
I posted this one with the comment that while I thought it was a good discussion of the difference between throwing in a sport context vs a fight, I really disagree with your characterization of how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense.
This is not surprising as probably a majority of judoka nowadays are clueless of judo beyond the IJF competition rules. But this is a phenomenon that is only about 50 years old. In the 1970s when I started judo, my 1st instructor still taught self defense, and many mid century judo books deal with atemi, kyusho, and standing joint locks.
There seems to be a growing interest in judo’s more complete art, what it was intended to be.
I think you would find that throwing as applied in self defense would be closer to what you associate with karate.
Hi Jonathan,
YOU WROTE: I really enjoy your videos and often post them to my Facebook group”
Thank you!
YOU WROTE: “I really disagree with your characterization of how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense”
This is the second such comment today, so I’m going to cut and paste a little, but the key point is this video is not about “how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense.” That’s not the topic of the video. It’s a comparison of the throws of sport judo with those of traditional karate. I did try to make sure this distinction was clear. For example, these bits in the description for the video:
“Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).”
“It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.”
The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are:
1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised.
2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka.
3) Sport judo is by far and a way the most commonly practised form of judo today.
4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to.
It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video.
There is, therefore, no “characterization of how judo as a martial art is applied in a fight or in unprovoked self defense” in the video :-) It’s a comparison of methods of sport judo with pragmatic karate.
The video has nothing to say on how judo would be applied to self-protection. That’s not the focus of the video for the aforementioned reasons. I’m not in disagreement that the older style of judo did include elements and methodologies missing from sport today; and that such methods have value in a self-protection context (I say so in the text).
The comments received today seem to be focused on “sport judo compared to traditional judo”; whereas my video is about “sport judo compared to traditional karate.”
If I was to make the video again, I would include an explicit statement at the start in order to avoid the confusion that has arisen. It seems the introductory text isn’t read as much as I’d assumed. My bad.
I hope that helps clarify and will encourage others to watch again with the stated intent in mind. Maybe post this text in the Facebook group too if you think it will help?
All the best,
Iain
Iain, great explanation and demonstration of the throwing concepts!
Brilliant Video. I spent 20 years saying, 'No Judo is the BEST' I spent 20 years training Judo only. About to eat my words now as I am now about to start Karate.
it is a well known fact that Karate in Okinawa evolved as a combination of Southern Chinese wushu styles (i.e. Tiger Crane) and Japanese jujutsu techniques brought by a samurai clan that occupied Okinawa. This how come there so many jujutsu techniques in Karate katas that majority see as some sort of obscure moves
Not jujutsu but Tegumi.
How do these methods compare to kudo or ashihara?
It would be very interesting to see an updated version of this video but with Shuai-jiao instead of karate. :)
I enjoyed this, but think that some misconceptions arising from various techniques shown and statements made in the video need to be cleared up.
First, and most important (and correct me if I am wrong), you seem to be comparing Karate for self-defence/violent unarmed confrontation with Judo for sport/competition. This is like comparing the proverbial apples and oranges, and therefore makes much of the comparisons you draw between Karate and Judo throwing mostly nonsensical.
Second, I agree that "the ground should never be sought" in a confrontation. Unfortunately, apparently 95% of physical confrontations end up on the ground, so it behooves anyone thinking that they might get involved in a physical confrontation to learn at least some basic groundwork.
Third, I have certainly been taught in Judo that one of the options for doing O Soto Gari (Osoto Gari, if you prefer that way of presenting the transliteration) is to push upwards and into one's opponent's chin with one's right fist (if doing a right-stance OSG). This is a fine way of controlling the head (which I think was part of your point), and contributes to unbalancing one's opponent. So, it is not true that this kind of technique occurs rarely in Judo.
Fourth, also relating to O Soto Gari, I have NEVER been taught to follow through on O Soto Gari by dropping to the knee, which you claim is "the first version of the throw you learn", and I have never seen that taught or shown anywhere in a Judo dojo as part of sparring (it might be in the Kata, but if it is, I would agree, it is not practical as a self-defence technique).
Actually, we are taught to either strike (Atemi - which is contained in Judo kata), or to come down on the opponent's ribs like a tonne of bricks on the follow up from OSG, if that position presents itself (usually, from OSG, one would find oneself one one's feet, several feet beyond / past one's opponent).
Both falling onto the ribs, or to strike the opponent as follow-ups to OSG, are sound self-defence moves.
Regarding your point, "They [i.e., Judoka] don't value stability in the way that we [i.e., Karateka] do; they value the throw more", there are several things to be said about this: (A) maintaining one's own balance/stability on one's feet is the pre-requisite for attacking in Judo; (B) unbalancing one's opponent is seen as a valuable thing to do (i.e., yes, to throw them), but is not the exclusive way that Judoka are taught to approach things; (C) various Judo techniques can be applied while standing (e.g., arm locks).
Finally, I think that it is worth saying that throws executed properly can have catastrophic (sometimes fatal) effects, if one does not do these safely, and with one's partner's safety in mind - being hit by the Planet, by way of using gravity, is an extremely effective form of dealing with one's opponent, if one can accomplish it (although there is a high learning curve in Judo).
YOU WROTE: “I enjoyed this …”
Thank you!
YOU WROTE: “… but think that some misconceptions arising from various techniques shown and statements made in the video need to be cleared up.”
Likewise. I think you’ve misunderstood the premise of the video, and therefore your comments are at crossed purposes. I don’t dispute much of that you say, but we are discussing different things.
YOU WROTE: “First, and most important (and correct me if I am wrong), you seem to be comparing Karate for self-defence/violent unarmed confrontation with Judo for sport/competition.”
You’re right, and I was clear on this. For example, this bit of the description for the video:
“Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).”
The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are:
1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised.
2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka.
3) Sport judo is by far and a way the most commonly practised form of judo today.
4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to.
It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video.
Much of your comments are based on a non-sporting version of judo; but that’s not the focus of the video. We both agree that sport judo and non-sporting judo are not the same, therefore many of the comments are not relevant to the video … nor are they disputed; but that’s a different discussion i.e. “sport judo compared to traditional judo” (your comments) as opposed to “pragmatic karate compared to sport judo” (my video).
I hope that helps clarify where I’m coming from and why.
YOU WROTE: “I agree that "the ground should never be sought" in a confrontation. Unfortunately, apparently 95% of physical confrontations end up on the ground, so it behooves anyone thinking that they might get involved in a physical confrontation to learn at least some basic groundwork.”
It’s important that readers of this thread know I never said otherwise. While I don’t agree with that much repeated “statistic”, I do agree that any martial artist with a self-protection focus should study basic ground-work. Real situations can go to the ground (it’s definitely not 19 out of every 20 situations, but it is common enough that it needs serious consideration) and that needs to be trained for … I never said otherwise, and that part of your post can be read to infer that I may have.
My point was that any method that deliberately seeks the ground is inappropriate in a self-protection context (see this video for lots of examples: th-cam.com/video/apahr0ujVJU/w-d-xo.html ). They remain very useful and effective in other contexts of course (fun too!).
As I say, I’m not disagreeing with much of what you wrote, and I hope that is clear to other readers and viewers. However, I do think you’ve misunderstood the nature of the actual comparison being made and the reasoning behind it. As I say, I do hope this clarifies.
All the best,
Iain
Well said sir.
Thanks for the examination. It helps clarify for a guy like me who can only practice as a part timer.
Excellent point in regards to context.
So cross training in judo won't be exactly good if I wanna learn self defence right?
Sport judo can be very useful in learning all kinds of things, we just need to be mindful of context and objective. I trained in sport judo and found it to be hugely beneficial in improving throws, learning now to avoid throws, ground work, etc. But the actions you’d take in a mutual fight are not the same as is required for non-consensual criminal violence. There is no “one size fits all” method that is the ideal fit for all possible forms of conflict. We always need to be mindful of context and decide what aspects are appropriate and what are not.
If I wanted to become better at grappling, then judo would be a good choice right?
To get good at self-defence, you need to train specifically for self-defence. You need to know about things like the law, de-escalation, escape, dynamics of crime, etc. Martial arts generally focus solely on the physical; and even then it’s normally about beating a fellow martial artist in a consensual exchange. As opposed to escaping criminals when facing non-consensual violence. Judo is superb when it comes to developing functional grappling skills; but these skills would need to be correctly contextualised and put within the larger self-protection skill set. It certainly helped me, but I mainly enjoyed learning judo for its own inherent values.
I see. Thank you.
i agree with that, karatekas are very worried about grappling and break falls, sure context is different but throws are the same. Bja judo is more sport and want you to sacrifice yourself for a through, but the aim is to get the person on the ground while your standing, just look at the rules, bjc are more in traditional judo, less competition, more Technic no grip fighting till dan grade, as they see it pointless and interferes with technical training. bjc is British judo council, bja British judo association. . I would never say do not do cross training and judo is excellent for it, as Ian says, there are lots of problems with both arts, but then it is all about context. The throws and break falls taught in a karate class are not as good as judo class but then, if you have a dan grade in judo who is a dan grade in karate you will get best of both worlds.
Great video. Overall, very well reasoned. However, it seems that he overlooked the floor combat component of judo. It is very important, and a vital aspect of competition. If a throw doesn't amount to a propper ippon, the combat follows on the ground, and a well rounded judoka is expected to transition to the ground and carry on fighting there with ease.
If you're ever in new York I would love to do a seminar with you. This is TRUE karate
And judo throws would be considered a set up for the actual fight in BJJ?
@@SereneJudo Well said.
As a karateka and judoka, if i would be very accademical in both arts on the throws here, i would have some very thin points to discuss on the technics here in both points of view. But averall, i quite agree in all what you say and show here.
I have just one point i would not quite agree , or perhaps just add one point. Ok, we have to avoid the ground in self defense, because of what you said. 100 % agree with that, nothing to discuss…BUT : you can be in the situation of you are thrown in the ground.
In this case, you have to know at least some basic ground work to have one chance to escape. That is why now i teach my karate students some basis of ground work in judo and jjb.
But as you said in some responses here, the right tool, in the right situation and context.
I see that you come in my land in a few months, but saddely i won t be there at that Time.
I Hope once to practice in one of your seminars.
I 100% agree with that. The ground is a bad place to be in self-defence, which is why we would never deliberately seek to go there. Throws that would deliberately put us on the ground are therefore an inappropriate option. However, as the Japanese saying goes, “even monkeys can fall out of trees.” If we do end up of the floor, despite out best efforts to keep off it, then we do need the core ground skills to help us get back up as soon as possible. Funakoshi, etc talk about practising such methods when training on Okinawa so there is an historical precedent for that as well as a practical need. While not the topic of this video, it is my view that all karateka who which effectively cover self-defence should practise the basics of ground fighting precisely for that reason. Don’t seek the floor (because it’s a bad place to be) but practise the ground skills needed to help get back up (also, because the ground is a bad place to be). Thanks for the kind words and the comment!
as a Karateka and Judoka I thought this video was useful and correct.
Excellent video. Thank you Iain.
9 centuries of samurai combat details throwing techniques are preferred when met with armoured assailants if/when weaponry is unavailable.
Yeah, it seems that grappling was preferred against armored opponents. This seems to be focused on in European martial arts, too, when out grappling your opponent could allow for opening his visor for a knife. Or having him surrender so you can collect a large ransom from your prisoner of war ;)
“You can never divorce method from context” 100% spot on.
Judoka, in the words of Joe Rogan are ''chimp strong''. Maybe sport judo needs some modifications for self-defense, but even still, I would NOT want to get a fight with a Judoka over a hard surface, or even like a bar where there are chairs and things to fall on. I'd fight the karate expert 9/10 before an equivalent experienced Judoka. 99/100 if they are from a sport karate school.
Most judoka are indeed strong and well-conditioned. Their training methods are very functional too. I would agree that in a consensual exchange the judoka would have a significant advantage over the karateka because once the grip is established it is difficult to break free to the striking range that would favour the karateka. This would therefore allow the judoka to dominate. However, when it comes to self-protection we need to think in terms of criminal behaviour and the methodology best placed to deal with that, as opposed to superimposing the goals and methodology of martial arts onto that behaviour.
In a one-on-one consensual fight, the methodology of judo (as most widely practised) is likely to be highly effective. In non-consensual criminal violence, you need methods that create space and facilitate escape (i.e. the tactically appropriate use of striking). You also need to consider third parties (40% of violent crime in the UK, where those involved are not related, involve more than one assailant) and therefore a default methodology that involves locking onto one person and taking them to the floor is problematic ( th-cam.com/video/apahr0ujVJU/w-d-xo.html ) in that context.
As I’m always at pains to point out in discussions like these, it’s not “better or worse”, but “appropriate or inappropriate”. The specific goal dictates the optimum strategy, the strategy determines the tactics, and the tactics determine the choice of technique. Change the goal and everything else changes. Avoiding harm from criminal activity is a significantly different goal from winning a fight.
@@practicalkatabunkai Sensei Ian, thank you for such a detailed, well thought out reply. I am a very big fan of yours, and that reply made my week, arigatou gozaimasu sir! I have to say that I agree 100% with your reply, if one assumes you are comparing Karate and striking as you teach it to Judo. My response was based more on what is typically taught these days in the USA as 'Karate' and all that implies.
Also, by 'fight' what I meant is referring to my experience 'street fighting'. My idea of a street fight is based upon going about with my fellow soldiers in Sachsenhausen Germany back almost 35 years ago. We'd head out on Friday and Saturday nights looking to have fun, 'fun' defined as trying to find girls (top priority) and if that failed, then we'd be looking to fight. These fights were more scuffles where you were not out to hurt anyone, but just more like young bulls locking horns. Then, come Monday, either way it went we'd of course enhance the stories quite a bit 😁😋.
What you were talking about in your response is a vastly different thing, nothing at all like the 'fights' of my youth. These are very dangerous situations whereas the perpetrators are out to do real harm to you for many reasons. As you said, going to the ground can be a death sentence (you said problematic 😁) for sure. In that case, you probably not likely to be attacked by trained martial artist as I would like to think that martial arts do as much for the character of the person as hand-to-hand ability. And the type of Karate you teach, is very appropriate for that type attack. If just larking about in horseplay, Judo is more appropriate. See, I did learn something from your video and reply 😁😎. Most of us do.
Thanks again for your response, I look forward to one day attending a training seminar with you👍🤠👍!
Well said and video well presented.
You are comparing the TRADITIONAL KARATE with the MODERN JUDO where the aim is mostly the submission.
If you see photo from judo around 1905, you will see that this difference disappear.
In the modern judo, which is sport, the concept is the submission, not the self defence or the fight for survival, so that's why if the environment changes, also the method changes.
Up to you to consider if we can still speak about judo when we see olympic games.
That’s definitely right. I make the same point in the text that goes with the video: “It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.” The video was made primarily for traditional karateka and looks to compare the throws of their art with the judo throws they are most likely to be exposed to i.e. the methods of modern competition. As I say, this is not a value judgement; just a matter of using the right tool for the job.
By the way i wanted to write you in private oon the FB and i don't know how to do.
Just i had a curiosity for one point, political not technical.
Thanks for answering :)
I have messenger knocked off for facebook, but I can be contacted via my website and email.
Nice Video. Good talk on Judo and Karate Throws.
Best explanation I have heard!!
I've liked the 2nd throw judo version, it can be followed by an arm lock.
@@SereneJudo you are right, for sport
keep up the good work!!
Exactly
🥋👍
When on the wrong end of any technique or weapon, any technique or weapon is dangerous even deadly.
Just train
Oss
A bad technique or inappropriate technique can be very problematic. Train with tactics in mind.
Judo was developed to preserve the uke, the real throws in a self defense application do not drop the uke on his back but rather drive the opponent forcibly into the ground, preferably head first. An ippon is a symbolic kill and properly executed requires no follow up technique. Obviously we cannot do this in practice so the forms have been modified. Kano understood that being skillful requires practicing against active opposition and avoiding injury so he modified accordingly. We cannot look at a modern sport and derive the original art in much the same way that we cannot apply other martial sports equipment and techniques into a functional self defence system e.g. Darts, javelin, hammer throw and discus to name a few.
Respectfully . You could not be more wrong . First you have to remember that the all the throws in Shotokan Came from the Kodokan and all the strikes in Judo (Goshin Jitsu/self defense )came from the Shotokan .To think for one second that Judoka cant modify their technique in a fistfight is ludicrous at best and delusional . Your showing Olympic Judo competition where Judo rules are being used .Compare Judo in MMA and you would be presenting a clearer picture . Dont delude others and yourself
Rey Garcia .Nidan Kempo Karate 2x East Coast Karate Champion . Yodan Kodokan Judo .2x East Coast Judo Chämpion World Masters Judo Champion 1999 100k kg 2005 Bronze. Reno Gracie Invt champion 2008 and Renzo Gracie Back Belt
.Former Head Judo and Asst BJJ and MMA Coach NYC BJJ Team Reno Gracie and American Top Team . Cirrent head BJJ ad MMA Coach MMA Fighter Club Danang Vietnam .Head Newaza inst Danang Judo Team Vietnam
Detective NYPD (ret) Fugitive Enforcement Division
Thanks for the feedback. I think you may need to rewatch the video as it seems you are confused on a few issues.
You said: “First you have to remember that the all the throws in Shotokan Came from the Kodokan and all the strikes in Judo (Goshin Jitsu/self defense )came from the Shotokan.”
That’s incorrect. Karate had throws in it long before it came into contact with Judo. The throws in karate come from many sources. A cursory glance at the older tests clearly demonstrates this. Shotokan is just one of many styles of karate, but if you read Gichin Funakoshi’s works (the founder of Shotokan) you can see the karate throws there and he explains the history. The section on “Tegumi” (indigenous Okinawan wrestling) in “Karate-Do: My Way of Life” would be a good place to start. Have a look at the throws in his books too and read what he says about their nature and origins. The assertion the throws came from Judo is incorrect.
Away from Shotokan, you may want to read the works on Itoman, Mabuni, the Bubishi, etc too. Karate did not get it’s throwing from Judo. It has it’s own throws and there is loads of historical documentation for this. For example:
“The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually just a part of the whole. The fact that those who have learnt karate there feel it only consists of kicks & punches, and that throws & locks are only to be found in judo or jujutsu, can only be put down to a lack of understanding … Those who are thinking of the future of karate should have an open mind and strive to study the complete art” - Kenwa Mabuni
Judo also has its own atemi-waza. They come from Kano’s training jujutsu and can be found in the kata of Judo. Again, it’s not correct to say Judo’s strikes came solely from Shotokan.
You said: “To think for one second that Judoka cant modify their technique in a fistfight is ludicrous at best and delusional. Your showing Olympic Judo competition where Judo rules are being used.”
I suggest you watch the video again. I never said what you think I did. I was talking about the objectives in SPORT judo and I would agree the throws can be adapted. If you also read the text that goes with the video, you can see I was clear it was the way throws are practiced in modern sport judo that I was discussing. Again, I never said the methods could not be adapted. They obviously can be.
You said: “Don’t delude others and yourself”
With respect, I’m not. You seem to be confused about the message of the video. If you read the text and watch again, you will hopefully see that I was clear it was the methods and objectives of modern sport judo that are being discussed.
I have practiced judo and I know the throws can be adapted, because I have made such adaptations myself when reintegrating relevant methods back into the self-defence side of my wider martial practise.
I am therefore not “deluded” on that point, nor am I seeking to delude others. Again, if you reread and re-watch, you will hopefully see you have attributed a view to me that I do not hold and did not state.
In the text that goes with the video I wrote:
"It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video."
It seems you missed that.
I hope that helps clarify.
All the best,
Iain
ooosh Sensei!!
Leren Disik, It's "Oss" not "Ooosh".
Judo throws are not even proper Judo...we dont always go down with our partners. Watch Shintaro Sensei on TH-cam for actual Judo
Thanks for the comment. One mistake I made when making this video was assuming people would read the text that goes along with it. That text sets the scene and explains what the video is covering and why. If I was to make this video again, I would include the text in the actual video itself.
YOU WROTE: “ … we dont always go down with our partners …”
The text that introduces this video states:
“It should also be understood that all the standing throws discussed are also present in classical judo, but we rarely see them used that way in modern judo competition. It is the modern competitive versions of the throws that I focus on in this video.”
I hope that helps clarify that I was specifically discussing the way the throws are most often applied in judo competition.
The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are:
1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised.
2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka.
3) Sport judo is by far and away the most commonly practised form of judo today.
4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to.
It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video.
The text did make clear that remaining on the feet is certainly something found in judo as a whole, but I failed to appreciate that few people read the accompanying text. I’ll correct that going forward.
All the best,
Iain
uh no
Judo for self defence is also for keeping yourself safe, dont generalise judo and make karate sound special >_>
Watch competitive Karate
None of this is used. Youre comparing self defence to a sport
Compare self defence to self defence...
Thanks for the comment. One mistake I made when making this video was assuming people would read the text that goes along with it. That text sets the scene and explains what the video is covering and why. If I was to make this video again, I would include the text in the actual video itself.
YOU WROTE: “Youre comparing self defence to a sport. Compare self defence to self defence...”
The text that introduces this video states:
“Where we find greater differences is the way those throws will be applied due to the differing goals of judo (sport judo) and karate (traditional self-protection focus).”
I hope that helps clarify that I was specifically discussing the way the throws are most often applied in judo competition.
The reasons for that being the focus of the comparison are:
1) They are the kinds of judo and karate I have practised.
2) My channel is primarily aimed at that kind of karateka.
3) Sport judo is by far and away the most commonly practised form of judo today.
4) If the karateka who watch my videos were to start judo training, then it’s extremely likely that it will be sport judo that they will be exposed to.
It is for the above reasons that the video focuses on comparing the methodologies of pragmatic karate with sport judo. It is the most relevant and useful comparison for the target audience of the video.
Many of the comments are in reference to “sport judo” compared to “traditional judo”; but the whole point of the video was to compare “sport judo” with “pragmatic karate” for the aforementioned reasons.
I hope that helps clarify where I’m coming from and the purpose of the video.
All the best,
Iain