Hi Dr. Schreiner, we just published a short critique of your answer on our channel where we defend the belief that head covering is a Christian, rather than a cultural symbol. We agreed with a lot of what you said here though. Grateful for you, brother!
Oops! at 3:21 Tom Schreiner claims 1 Corinthians 11 says women can pray or prophesy in the assembly when the assembly is gathered and when they are relating well to the men of the congregation. -- This is incorrect. Paul mentions women praying and prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11 : 5 & 13 in his teaching about believers having the correct hair length. It's not until afterwards at 1 Corinthians 11 : 17 that Paul starts to teach specifically about the Corinthian church meetings/assemblies/gatherings, and this is concerning the abuse constantly happening when they eat the Lord's Supper. Prayer and prophesy are not limited to occurring only in church assemblies. Women and men can pray outside of assemblies, and most of the prophecies in the Bible are given outside of assemblies. So it's clear that women can pray and prophesy outside of assemblies. Also in 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 - 38 Paul says it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly and then Paul tells the prophets in Corinth to acknowledge that what he is writing to them is the Lord's command. Why did Tom Schreiner not mention this? Here is a summary of the topics Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians : 1 Corinthians 1 : 1 - 9 Paul's greeting and thanksgiving 1 Corinthians 1 : 10 - 4 : 21 Paul deals with the divisions in the Corinthian church 1 Corinthians 5 : 1 - 6 : 20 Paul admonishes believers in Corinth for sexual immorality and having lawsuits with each other 1 Corinthians 7 Paul responds to what the Corinthian believers wrote to him about marriage & singleness 1 Corinthians 8 : 1 - 11 : 1 Paul teaches on Christian rights, Christian freedom, and keeping others from stumbling (sinning) 1 Corinthians 11 : 2 - 16 Paul teaches on the proper hair length for men and women (long hair is given to women as a covering for their head) 1 Corinthians 11 : 17 - 34 Paul rebukes the abuse occurring during the meetings when Corinthian believers were eating the Lord's Supper 1 Corinthians 12 : 1 - 14 : 40 Paul instructs the Corinthian church (& all the congregations of the saints 1 : 2 and 14 : 33) on how to exercise their spiritual gifts 1 Corinthians 15 Paul corrects some of the Corinthians concerning resurrection 1 Corinthians 16 Paul gives instructions on collecting money for brothers in Jerusalem. Paul gives updates about himself and individuals the Corinthians know Please notice when you do a study on 1 Corinthians that all the verses that mention women praying and prophesying (1 Corinthians 11 : 5 & 13) are not connected to any of the verses that mention church assemblies (1 Corinthians 11 : 17, 18, 20, 33 / 1 Corinthians 14 : 19, 23, 26, & 33-34)
@@georgechristiansen6785 I'll summarize my comments so you can see Paul's argument is not from silence. Here we go : Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 - 38 that it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly and then Paul tells the prophets in Corinth to acknowledge that what he is writing to them is the Lord's command. There you go. That is not an argument from silence. It's a teaching from an apostle who said it is a command from the Lord. Others might try to disagree by saying that Paul describes women praying and prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11, and somehow we should assume their praying and prophesying is taking place in a church assembly. If someone does disagree in this manner my question to them is "What is the context of the women praying and prophesying?" Is it concerning church assemblies or is it something else? All we have to do is go to 1 Corinthians 11 and we find out the context is concerning believers having the correct hair length (covering). So 1 Corinthians 11 is where Paul is teaching about hair length and brings up people praying and prophesying with long or short hair. And in 1 Corinthians 14 Paul teaches about how we are to conduct ourselves in church assemblies/meetings. A thorough teacher would have presented both passages and the contexts for each passage in this video, but Tom Schreiner did not do this.
@@EyeToob I said YOUR argument is from silence, which it is. There is NOTHING in the text to say: 1-That the women Paul refers to are praying and prophesying outside the assembly. 2-That there is any distinction between rules for what happens in the assembly and outside of it.
@@georgechristiansen6785 So how silent is Paul about women speaking in church assemblies? Not very silent LOL Here is what Paul taught : (1 Corinthians 14 : 34 - 38) "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored." To claim I'm arguing from silence is pretty funny. Thanks for the laughs.
On what basis you said nowadays Christians DO NOT NECESSARILY follow the OT? It is the words of God, right? Why does human want to change it or need to change it, bro?
Heb. 8:6-7-"But as it is, Christ[b] has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as he covenant (K)he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb. 8:13-"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And (R)what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Also the entire book of galatians.
Hebrews 8 : 13 is a prophecy predicting the Mosaic covenant would soon disappear in the first century. The fulfillment took place in 70 AD when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. This is why God's people are no longer obligated to keep the Law, but parts of the Law were repeated in the New covenant of Christ. The commands of God we follow today come from the New covenant established by the Messiah, Jesus. 9 of the 10 commandments were repeated in the New covenant. Keeping the Sabbath is the one that was not repeated. Keeping the Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant. Once a covenant passes away, then its sign goes with it. We can voluntarily keep it if we want to, but we are no longer obligated to obey it. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath by giving us rest in him (Hebrews 4 : 1 - 11 mentions this specifically).
Thank you Dr. Schreiner for your service to Christ's Church.
Great
Spot on, Dr Schreiner
Hi Dr. Schreiner, we just published a short critique of your answer on our channel where we defend the belief that head covering is a Christian, rather than a cultural symbol. We agreed with a lot of what you said here though. Grateful for you, brother!
Oops! at 3:21 Tom Schreiner claims 1 Corinthians 11 says women can pray or prophesy in the assembly when the assembly is gathered and when they are relating well to the men of the congregation. -- This is incorrect.
Paul mentions women praying and prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11 : 5 & 13 in his teaching about believers having the correct hair length. It's not until afterwards at 1 Corinthians 11 : 17 that Paul starts to teach specifically about the Corinthian church meetings/assemblies/gatherings, and this is concerning the abuse constantly happening when they eat the Lord's Supper. Prayer and prophesy are not limited to occurring only in church assemblies. Women and men can pray outside of assemblies, and most of the prophecies in the Bible are given outside of assemblies. So it's clear that women can pray and prophesy outside of assemblies. Also in 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 - 38 Paul says it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly and then Paul tells the prophets in Corinth to acknowledge that what he is writing to them is the Lord's command. Why did Tom Schreiner not mention this?
Here is a summary of the topics Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians :
1 Corinthians 1 : 1 - 9 Paul's greeting and thanksgiving
1 Corinthians 1 : 10 - 4 : 21 Paul deals with the divisions in the Corinthian church
1 Corinthians 5 : 1 - 6 : 20 Paul admonishes believers in Corinth for sexual immorality and having lawsuits with each other
1 Corinthians 7 Paul responds to what the Corinthian believers wrote to him about marriage & singleness
1 Corinthians 8 : 1 - 11 : 1 Paul teaches on Christian rights, Christian freedom, and keeping others from stumbling (sinning)
1 Corinthians 11 : 2 - 16 Paul teaches on the proper hair length for men and women (long hair is given to women as a covering for their head)
1 Corinthians 11 : 17 - 34 Paul rebukes the abuse occurring during the meetings when Corinthian believers were eating the Lord's Supper
1 Corinthians 12 : 1 - 14 : 40 Paul instructs the Corinthian church (& all the congregations of the saints 1 : 2 and 14 : 33) on how to exercise their spiritual gifts
1 Corinthians 15 Paul corrects some of the Corinthians concerning resurrection
1 Corinthians 16 Paul gives instructions on collecting money for brothers in Jerusalem. Paul gives updates about himself and individuals the Corinthians know
Please notice when you do a study on 1 Corinthians that all the verses that mention women praying and prophesying (1 Corinthians 11 : 5 & 13)
are not connected to
any of the verses that mention church assemblies (1 Corinthians 11 : 17, 18, 20, 33 / 1 Corinthians 14 : 19, 23, 26, & 33-34)
Your entire premise is an argument from silence.
There is nothing saying that these women are outside the assembly.
@@georgechristiansen6785 I'll summarize my comments so you can see Paul's argument is not from silence. Here we go :
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 - 38 that it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly and then Paul tells the prophets in Corinth to acknowledge that what he is writing to them is the Lord's command.
There you go. That is not an argument from silence. It's a teaching from an apostle who said it is a command from the Lord.
Others might try to disagree by saying that Paul describes women praying and prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11, and somehow we should assume their praying and prophesying is taking place in a church assembly. If someone does disagree in this manner my question to them is "What is the context of the women praying and prophesying?" Is it concerning church assemblies or is it something else? All we have to do is go to 1 Corinthians 11 and we find out the context is concerning believers having the correct hair length (covering).
So 1 Corinthians 11 is where Paul is teaching about hair length and brings up people praying and prophesying with long or short hair.
And in 1 Corinthians 14 Paul teaches about how we are to conduct ourselves in church assemblies/meetings. A thorough teacher would have presented both passages and the contexts for each passage in this video, but Tom Schreiner did not do this.
@@EyeToob I said YOUR argument is from silence, which it is.
There is NOTHING in the text to say:
1-That the women Paul refers to are praying and prophesying outside the assembly.
2-That there is any distinction between rules for what happens in the assembly and outside of it.
@@georgechristiansen6785 So how silent is Paul about women speaking in church assemblies?
Not very silent LOL
Here is what Paul taught : (1 Corinthians 14 : 34 - 38)
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored."
To claim I'm arguing from silence is pretty funny. Thanks for the laughs.
On what basis you said nowadays Christians DO NOT NECESSARILY follow the OT? It is the words of God, right? Why does human want to change it or need to change it, bro?
Heb. 8:6-7-"But as it is, Christ[b] has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as he covenant (K)he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb. 8:13-"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And (R)what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Also the entire book of galatians.
Hebrews 8 : 13 is a prophecy predicting the Mosaic covenant would soon disappear in the first century. The fulfillment took place in 70 AD when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. This is why God's people are no longer obligated to keep the Law, but parts of the Law were repeated in the New covenant of Christ. The commands of God we follow today come from the New covenant established by the Messiah, Jesus. 9 of the 10 commandments were repeated in the New covenant. Keeping the Sabbath is the one that was not repeated. Keeping the Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant. Once a covenant passes away, then its sign goes with it. We can voluntarily keep it if we want to, but we are no longer obligated to obey it. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath by giving us rest in him (Hebrews 4 : 1 - 11 mentions this specifically).