It's worth mentioning that the spec sheet usually have the frequency response of the speaker or subwoofer, which is a bit more straightforward thing where you can both measure change in impedance or output in an anechoic chamber (or simulate). Then there's room gain which increases the lower you go in frequency, it's something simulated while designing speakers/subwoofers but I don't believe any manufacturer includes it in the spec as that could get misleading. Then of course there's room modes for low frequency, causing both cancellation and amplification (which is the reason why all speakers no matter the brand or cost will benefit from them if properly integrated).
After criticizing his Burn In Video and Statements in it , I always found his explanations and usage of subs really helpful and inspiring. At the first look it’s contra intuitive because you have a big or even two big bass engines and the first thought obviously is to augment your current speaker setup. At the second look and giving it more thoughts and some insights of physics you’ll come to the conclusion that THE ROOM is the second important “instrument” in your listening system. After the speakers. To call it “augment the room” is a euphemistically description of the actual goal which is to compensate problems the room geometry causes. So to call subwoofer helper of your speakers so that they can show their full potential which includes not only the bass frequencies, is a really and purposefully explanation.
@@sparkcone Oh god yes he is. But in a nice sometimes entertaining sometimes annoying way. But bro this is all about business here. He is the boss and not the social worker here. Selling products is all he wants. BUT thats ok as long we keep that in mind. Back in the days we had a couple of really good HiFi stores here in Berlin. With sales person who didn't want to rip you pocket in the first place but figuring want you rally want and really need. I actually miss these people as most of the business went online.
@ First brother I can believe what I want to.... Second science is not a place of believing rather than facts. I know this simple comprehension has been lost over the last couple of years. At least since MAGA occurred and raised .... So I studied computer SIENCE and electronic/electrotechnic SIENCE at the university. You know why? So that I don't have to believe anymore... And YOU?
Exactly right. I will only buy a sub with high-level inputs, so I can leave my speakers at full range. I tried the base management thing from the receiver. Great plan. Didn't work 😏. My speakers go down to 32 HZ. Not using a sub. Thanks for the video.
Problem with that is that you don't really handle the room modes. You don't need high-level inputs to leave your speakers at full range. That said, if you with high-level and X-over and phase get good integration that's about optimal. Normally the room modes are the challenge. That will require subs with dsp or using MiniDSP or similar. So speakers direct from amp full range and DSP for the subs.
@@gardsolberg3422 I avoid base problems with the following setup. Speaker Placement Front Ported, Reference Speakers: From front wall, 33". Rt spkr, 62" Lt spkr. Both speakers are 28" from side walls. Room = 12' W x 13' L, or 144" x 156". Speaker distance ratios equal; Left speaker is 2/5 into the room. Right speaker is 1/5 into the room. Both speakers are 1/5 into the room from the side walls. Speakers are 7.5 ft apart, the stands and front baffles were set parallel, then speakers were towed in, cross streamed 7%. Speakers are also front tilted up 7%. The listening area is parallel to the speaker plane, centered, 8' from speakers. Speakers in room response down to 32 HZ. Mid-range and treble are very well balanced, surround effects from the tube preamp are excellent. Sound stage is excellent. Using GE JAN 3654W tube preamp into T.I. TPA-3250 Class D chip amp, about 50 clean watts into 6 ohm speaker load. This setup may or may not work with rear ported speakers. So far I am very pleased with the front ported speaker design. There is no boominess, but there is very deep, balanced bass.
It seems the trend is to utilize subwoofers to fill in the missing low frequencies. Modern speakers often make due with multiple small drivers, planar magnetic, or electrostatic transducers. I have never been able to integrate subwoofers to my satisfaction due to the spacial disconnect with sound waves coming from different locations. That and the latency of the low frequency drivers makes subs a band-aid approach.
it depends on of the main speaker are bass reflex, you do not want to have that. the latency of the low frequency drivers is coming from the dsp in the plate amp in a active subwoofer, i try to avoid that kind of subwoofer. but the most common subwoofer is the worst kind of thing you can imagine, dsp subwoofer with ported main speaker. i did not notice the problem until i got something better. so most propel are not aware of how good it can sound.
3dB down means at that frequency the speaker is essentially only drawing half the amount of power, so that gives you an idea of how much volume you have lost. 6dB down is if you lost half the voltage. Obviously rolling off lower is better, but don't forget that the room and wall loading etc might reinforce the low end a bit and add gain, so your in-room performance is very likely different than the speakers specs.
I agree with Paul I leave my sealed bookselves full range (60hz) with my bandpass sub. I have tried setting a crossover like the popular recommendation but liked the sound and integration better when left full range. I'm not a bassaholic. I like clean dynamic bass. It may be each case is different and should be evaluated both ways. I am starting to wonder if too many filters are having other negative effects to the sound that I dislike.
I got the exact opposite outcome with my Maggie 3.6 R’s and a Carver True Subwoofer with very little adjustments on the sub required. I get incredibly low Bass (stream Brian Bromberg Wood” which is on Paul‘s recommended list) that sounds like the ultra low frequency content is coming from the Maggies. Tight, spatially correct, articulate, and tonally accurate acoustic Bass. I used the same procedure that Paul did.
Does the recording for the first track on that album sound to anyone else like they stuck their head inside the piano rather than having it on a stage in front of them?
Bass rol off slope for a bass reflex (or passive membrane) speaker is 24 dB per octave vs 12 for closed enclosure . So no , you will not hear anything significant from a bass reflex speaker one octave down the -3dB frequency .
Change your driver's in the enclosure, these days you are able to just order the speakers at the manufacturer's special products line. Or a Good Builder
So many novice hobbyists think they know audio. It’s unfortunate they propagate falsehoods in the industry. There are even HiFi channels on TH-cam geared towards audiophiles where they have no clue what they’re doing. 😂 Paul is among the best and most reliable. I disagree occasionally, but not in this case. He’s right “on the money” as usual. 🎉
Arthur, if you still have the Magnepans, try an REL sub. All subs are not equal and REL work to maintain musicality. I have been using one for years with my Maggies and it is a good match. I surprised one listener by turning off the sub when a soprano was singing. The loss of tone was striking.
There is not a -3 dB industry standard for manufacturers to quote their specs. They can say anything they want. If they SAY the lower frequency limit is -3 dB, that's one thing, but if they do not specify whether it's -3 or -50, then it can be ANYTHING as long as the speaker is capable of producing the quoted frequency. The spec says NOTHING about how loudly the speaker can play at the low end of the spec. Further, even if the specs include the "dB down point", they never say in what condition they achieved their claimed measurement. Anechoic chamber? Large room? Small room? Stuffed in a corner, or in the middle of the room? In a peak or a null location? YOU CANNOT KNOW unless they tell you. I've been going to Magnepan's website for years, and they NEVER say what their dB down point is, they just say "40 - 20kHz" or whatever. That tells you NOTHING. A 2" tweeter can play a 50 Hz tone. You just can barely hear it. Is that useful to you? NO. Come on Paul, you can do better than that.
Yeah normally speakers are measured +- 3 dB, which is ridiculous that PS audio do it with - 6 dB. Just like measuring their amps at 1 KHz with high distortion. That's one way to crank a little extra specs out of an equipment. And some manufacturers just write frequency range, and then it's when you can barely hear the bass, which will be a lot lower Hz than if it's supposed to be at same lavel as the rest. All speakers can play bass. It's just a matter of how loud. And remember that there's no Hi-Fi police... So a manufacturer can claim pretty much whatever they want like piega line-source speakers that cost about 20k a pair. When measured they were 10 dB lower sensitivity... No big deal, that just means you need over 10x as much power to achieve the same sound level that they claim.....
I’ve seen one pro-audio speaker that put a plot of their frequency response as an engraved label on the speaker. The Y-axis of the plot covered a 120 dB range, which will make anything look flat to an uninformed consumer.
Well if *in room* the roll-off of the main speaker is actually -3 @ 50hz, then you want the sub to be crossed over at 50hz -3dB as well, and set the phase so the overlap is at 50hz to compound the gain at the crossover point for a flat response
I like the idea of subwoofers, I just don't believe subwoofers do what they claim to do. I think the issue has always been the resolving power of subwoofers just isn't there. Subwoofer drivers have always been junk. Tons of moving mass, and they overcompensate by using tire inner tubes as surrounds and use big ass motors to beat the cone into submission. A sub should only be used as a last resort or as some kind of niche solution.
Everyone says I should get a subwoofer for my system. My response is to fire up a tone generator, dial it down to 3 hz and let them watch my "mid-bass" woofers crawling slowly back and forth (any speaker will do this, btw). At 16hz I can rattle every door in my apartment. At 20hz you can feel the pressure in your ears. At 32 hz you start to hear an audible hum in the room. Do I need a sub-woofer? Nope... I simply pushed the speakers closer to my front wall and let "wall gain" compensate for the audible roll off that starts about 38hz. Remember back in the 60s and 70s when you used to line all your stereo gear up against a wall in your living room and stereos had thunderous bass? Well it turns out they had it right. This nonsense about keeping speakers out in the middle of your room to mimic anechoic response is what drives the need for sub-woofers. If you don't believe me, turn off your subs and put your speakers about 6 inches off the front wall of your listening room ....
That may work to make loud bass but not good. if all you listen too is rap and hip hop fine, but the soundstage and imaging will be crap in most setups. You'll get no clear definition of instrument or voice, muddy center, and no depth. It's all compromises. A sub, properly setup, will get you the bass at your listening position while still maintaining the other critical aspects of the sound many of us strive for.
@@slode1693 Did you actually try this? (I'm betting not, since you replied 18 minutes after my post) The thing is I experienced none of those side effects...
@@Douglas_Blake Yes, I have setup many systems starting with the speakers against the wall facing straight out. Have you tried bringing yours out a few inches at a time until they start sounding good, then toeing them in until you get the best soundstage and imaging? I'd bet everything but below 80Hz or so sounds better than against the wall.
@@slode1693 Of course I've tried that, many times. My speakers always wind up about 6 inches off the wall, 7 feet apart, toed in to my shoulders. Every time... every speaker. In other people's listening areas the positions are a bit different... but never more than a few inches from their wall.
I recently upgraded to PS Audio FR5 speakers and S300 amp , running in bi-amp and wow. my video: Hifi Kick drums kick my ass with 1100 horsepower! PS Audio S300 (dual mono amplifier), WBC Ultimate th-cam.com/video/-WbVsly1X0w/w-d-xo.html source=Apple Music lossless quality
I love these more technical videos, more of this, please.
It's worth mentioning that the spec sheet usually have the frequency response of the speaker or subwoofer, which is a bit more straightforward thing where you can both measure change in impedance or output in an anechoic chamber (or simulate). Then there's room gain which increases the lower you go in frequency, it's something simulated while designing speakers/subwoofers but I don't believe any manufacturer includes it in the spec as that could get misleading. Then of course there's room modes for low frequency, causing both cancellation and amplification (which is the reason why all speakers no matter the brand or cost will benefit from them if properly integrated).
After criticizing his Burn In Video and Statements in it , I always found his explanations and usage of subs really helpful and inspiring. At the first look it’s contra intuitive because you have a big or even two big bass engines and the first thought obviously is to augment your current speaker setup. At the second look and giving it more thoughts and some insights of physics you’ll come to the conclusion that THE ROOM is the second important “instrument” in your listening system. After the speakers. To call it “augment the room” is a euphemistically description of the actual goal which is to compensate problems the room geometry causes. So to call subwoofer helper of your speakers so that they can show their full potential which includes not only the bass frequencies, is a really and purposefully explanation.
Paul da MAN has so many years of Professional Experiences so trust Paul and best is Paul is not out for your $$$
And maybe you shouldn't believe that you know more than Paul does about burn in, also.
@@sparkcone Oh god yes he is. But in a nice sometimes entertaining sometimes annoying way. But bro this is all about business here. He is the boss and not the social worker here. Selling products is all he wants. BUT thats ok as long we keep that in mind. Back in the days we had a couple of really good HiFi stores here in Berlin. With sales person who didn't want to rip you pocket in the first place but figuring want you rally want and really need. I actually miss these people as most of the business went online.
@ First brother I can believe what I want to.... Second science is not a place of believing rather than facts. I know this simple comprehension has been lost over the last couple of years. At least since MAGA occurred and raised ....
So I studied computer SIENCE and electronic/electrotechnic SIENCE at the university.
You know why? So that I don't have to believe anymore...
And YOU?
Exactly right. I will only buy a sub with high-level inputs, so I can leave my speakers at full range. I tried the base management thing from the receiver. Great plan. Didn't work 😏. My speakers go down to 32 HZ. Not using a sub. Thanks for the video.
Most recievers let you do both. You just have to set your speakers to full range
Problem with that is that you don't really handle the room modes. You don't need high-level inputs to leave your speakers at full range. That said, if you with high-level and X-over and phase get good integration that's about optimal. Normally the room modes are the challenge. That will require subs with dsp or using MiniDSP or similar. So speakers direct from amp full range and DSP for the subs.
@@gardsolberg3422 I avoid base problems with the following setup. Speaker Placement Front Ported, Reference Speakers:
From front wall, 33". Rt spkr, 62" Lt spkr. Both speakers are 28" from side walls.
Room = 12' W x 13' L, or 144" x 156".
Speaker distance ratios equal;
Left speaker is 2/5 into the room.
Right speaker is 1/5 into the room.
Both speakers are 1/5 into the room from the side walls.
Speakers are 7.5 ft apart, the stands and front baffles were set parallel, then speakers were towed in, cross streamed 7%. Speakers are also front tilted up 7%. The listening area is parallel to the speaker plane, centered, 8' from speakers.
Speakers in room response down to 32 HZ. Mid-range and treble are very well balanced, surround effects from the tube preamp are excellent. Sound stage is excellent.
Using GE JAN 3654W tube preamp into T.I. TPA-3250 Class D chip amp, about 50 clean watts into 6 ohm speaker load.
This setup may or may not work with rear ported speakers. So far I am very pleased with the front ported speaker design. There is no boominess, but there is very deep, balanced bass.
It seems the trend is to utilize subwoofers to fill in the missing low frequencies. Modern speakers often make due with multiple small drivers, planar magnetic, or electrostatic transducers. I have never been able to integrate subwoofers to my satisfaction due to the spacial disconnect with sound waves coming from different locations. That and the latency of the low frequency drivers makes subs a band-aid approach.
it depends on of the main speaker are bass reflex, you do not want to have that.
the latency of the low frequency drivers is coming from the dsp in the plate amp in a active subwoofer, i try to avoid that kind of subwoofer.
but the most common subwoofer is the worst kind of thing you can imagine, dsp subwoofer with ported main speaker. i did not notice the problem until i got something better. so most propel are not aware of how good it can sound.
3dB down means at that frequency the speaker is essentially only drawing half the amount of power, so that gives you an idea of how much volume you have lost. 6dB down is if you lost half the voltage. Obviously rolling off lower is better, but don't forget that the room and wall loading etc might reinforce the low end a bit and add gain, so your in-room performance is very likely different than the speakers specs.
I agree with Paul I leave my sealed bookselves full range (60hz) with my bandpass sub. I have tried setting a crossover like the popular recommendation but liked the sound and integration better when left full range. I'm not a bassaholic. I like clean dynamic bass. It may be each case is different and should be evaluated both ways. I am starting to wonder if too many filters are having other negative effects to the sound that I dislike.
I got the exact opposite outcome with my Maggie 3.6 R’s and a Carver True Subwoofer with very little adjustments on the sub required. I get incredibly low Bass (stream Brian Bromberg Wood” which is on Paul‘s recommended list) that sounds like the ultra low frequency content is coming from the Maggies. Tight, spatially correct, articulate, and tonally accurate acoustic Bass.
I used the same procedure that Paul did.
Does the recording for the first track on that album sound to anyone else like they stuck their head inside the piano rather than having it on a stage in front of them?
Bass rol off slope for a bass reflex (or passive membrane) speaker is 24 dB per octave vs 12 for closed enclosure . So no , you will not hear anything significant from a bass reflex speaker one octave down the -3dB frequency .
Change your driver's in the enclosure, these days you are able to just order the speakers at the manufacturer's special products line. Or a Good Builder
So many novice hobbyists think they know audio. It’s unfortunate they propagate falsehoods in the industry. There are even HiFi channels on TH-cam geared towards audiophiles where they have no clue what they’re doing. 😂 Paul is among the best and most reliable. I disagree occasionally, but not in this case. He’s right “on the money” as usual. 🎉
Thanks. It's hard sometimes to cut through all the noise out there but I try. Much appreciated.
Arthur, if you still have the Magnepans, try an REL sub. All subs are not equal and REL work to maintain musicality. I have been using one for years with my Maggies and it is a good match. I surprised one listener by turning off the sub when a soprano was singing. The loss of tone was striking.
Specs means nothing and tells little how the sound of a speaker is. One should not focus too much on specs
I only use a sub in my truck. In the house I have 8 ten inch woofers so bass has never been an issue. No replacement for displacement.
There is not a -3 dB industry standard for manufacturers to quote their specs. They can say anything they want. If they SAY the lower frequency limit is -3 dB, that's one thing, but if they do not specify whether it's -3 or -50, then it can be ANYTHING as long as the speaker is capable of producing the quoted frequency. The spec says NOTHING about how loudly the speaker can play at the low end of the spec. Further, even if the specs include the "dB down point", they never say in what condition they achieved their claimed measurement. Anechoic chamber? Large room? Small room? Stuffed in a corner, or in the middle of the room? In a peak or a null location? YOU CANNOT KNOW unless they tell you. I've been going to Magnepan's website for years, and they NEVER say what their dB down point is, they just say "40 - 20kHz" or whatever. That tells you NOTHING. A 2" tweeter can play a 50 Hz tone. You just can barely hear it. Is that useful to you? NO.
Come on Paul, you can do better than that.
I agree, there’s no fixed standard. Most good speaker makers will also say what ±dB amount they’re using in their specs.
I have noticed a lot more spec -10db instead of -3db lately
I guess I disagree with Paul on this one as I own Maggie’s and prefer it the other way
Yeah normally speakers are measured +- 3 dB, which is ridiculous that PS audio do it with - 6 dB. Just like measuring their amps at 1 KHz with high distortion. That's one way to crank a little extra specs out of an equipment. And some manufacturers just write frequency range, and then it's when you can barely hear the bass, which will be a lot lower Hz than if it's supposed to be at same lavel as the rest. All speakers can play bass. It's just a matter of how loud. And remember that there's no Hi-Fi police... So a manufacturer can claim pretty much whatever they want like piega line-source speakers that cost about 20k a pair. When measured they were 10 dB lower sensitivity... No big deal, that just means you need over 10x as much power to achieve the same sound level that they claim.....
I’ve seen one pro-audio speaker that put a plot of their frequency response as an engraved label on the speaker. The Y-axis of the plot covered a 120 dB range, which will make anything look flat to an uninformed consumer.
I wish you could have suggested a solution not how it should work. Say set the subwoofer below or above the roll off rate at 50 hertz.
Well if *in room* the roll-off of the main speaker is actually -3 @ 50hz, then you want the sub to be crossed over at 50hz -3dB as well, and set the phase so the overlap is at 50hz to compound the gain at the crossover point for a flat response
I’ll claim second if Error doesn’t want it!
See you tomorrow. 😊
Give me a break, I'm on the East Coast!
@@unclewilbur8976 I was actual first 4 minutes bedore you! Sort comments by newest first!
I’m confused.
Who’s on first?
I thought I was second!
Is this an Abbot & Costello skit? 😊
I like the idea of subwoofers, I just don't believe subwoofers do what they claim to do. I think the issue has always been the resolving power of subwoofers just isn't there. Subwoofer drivers have always been junk. Tons of moving mass, and they overcompensate by using tire inner tubes as surrounds and use big ass motors to beat the cone into submission. A sub should only be used as a last resort or as some kind of niche solution.
I have never been a big fan of sub woofers
Mine goes to eleven
I’m first!
Am I first for the East Coast?
@@peterbaugh51 Are there subcategories?
Should we have categories for each time zone?
Sounds alright with me.
Only if you meet the proper specs for an audiophile. If you are neural atypical in any way you qualify.
Nobodys first today??😂
The music is always first
@@Error2username I’m actual first 3 minutes before you! Sort comments by newest!
Everyone says I should get a subwoofer for my system.
My response is to fire up a tone generator, dial it down to 3 hz and let them watch my "mid-bass" woofers crawling slowly back and forth (any speaker will do this, btw). At 16hz I can rattle every door in my apartment. At 20hz you can feel the pressure in your ears. At 32 hz you start to hear an audible hum in the room.
Do I need a sub-woofer? Nope... I simply pushed the speakers closer to my front wall and let "wall gain" compensate for the audible roll off that starts about 38hz.
Remember back in the 60s and 70s when you used to line all your stereo gear up against a wall in your living room and stereos had thunderous bass? Well it turns out they had it right. This nonsense about keeping speakers out in the middle of your room to mimic anechoic response is what drives the need for sub-woofers.
If you don't believe me, turn off your subs and put your speakers about 6 inches off the front wall of your listening room ....
That may work to make loud bass but not good. if all you listen too is rap and hip hop fine, but the soundstage and imaging will be crap in most setups. You'll get no clear definition of instrument or voice, muddy center, and no depth. It's all compromises. A sub, properly setup, will get you the bass at your listening position while still maintaining the other critical aspects of the sound many of us strive for.
@@slode1693
Did you actually try this? (I'm betting not, since you replied 18 minutes after my post)
The thing is I experienced none of those side effects...
@@Douglas_Blake Yes, I have setup many systems starting with the speakers against the wall facing straight out. Have you tried bringing yours out a few inches at a time until they start sounding good, then toeing them in until you get the best soundstage and imaging? I'd bet everything but below 80Hz or so sounds better than against the wall.
@@slode1693
Of course I've tried that, many times. My speakers always wind up about 6 inches off the wall, 7 feet apart, toed in to my shoulders. Every time... every speaker. In other people's listening areas the positions are a bit different... but never more than a few inches from their wall.
Bass in yer face
How Low Can U Go....
If you have to[ Turn it Up].
You failed GRP posted
😅😅😅
I recently upgraded to PS Audio FR5 speakers and S300 amp , running in bi-amp and wow.
my video:
Hifi Kick drums kick my ass with 1100 horsepower! PS Audio S300 (dual mono amplifier), WBC Ultimate
th-cam.com/video/-WbVsly1X0w/w-d-xo.html
source=Apple Music lossless quality