TRAJECTORY: And why heavy arrows aren't as bad as i thought
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ส.ค. 2021
- Testing 385G, 600g and 900G arrows to see just how bad the trajectory is from 20-70 yards for the fat boys. Also an easy way for you to try it at home with your current setup.
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I like this type of videos that are informative instead of trying to manipulate the viewer of which route to go.
Your videos are one of my favorites to watch. I just ordered a hat, and being prior service I love what you're doing, thanks
You said “the heavier arrow holds its speed better” and I thought of the Ranch Fairy’s recent videos where they track speed, kinetic energy, and momentum on different weights of arrows out to 60 yards. They found the exact same thing. Heavier arrows lose speed and momentum slower than light arrows. Not to mention, the heavy arrows have more momentum at 60 yards than the light arrows at point blank range. Really fascinating to see.
That's a bad ass stick drawing if I've ever seen one!...love the giving back. You rock buddy.
Dude, I’ve been watching your videos for a while now and I love your approach to how you present information. Your videos are awesome and I love your content. As a LEO I think it’s awesome that someone I enjoy watching and follow outside of LE content is putting out there about supporting first responders and LE. Thanks man. Much love.
I appreciate you, mr Anus!
Excellent topic, looking forward to the next upload.
Great job describing what's going on with the weight/trajectory..
Can’t wait to re watch this, awesome job as always my dude
First of all, as a paramedic I’d like to say thank you for your support. I’ll be stopping by and checking out your store for sure. Ok, not to stir up a hornets nest, but take those “heavy” arrows and find the lightest shaft gpi, and move all the extra weight to the point. Yes, I’m talking EFOC arrows. I shoot traditional and my arrows are very forgiving. I shoot 45 lbs and my arrows are 475gr. Awesome video!!
I’m not saying you’re totally wrong but shooting trad may not seem much different than compound but from what I’m reading they are night and day different. I just jumped into the EFOC thing with my setup this year. Not sure about forgiving at distance but my tuning process has been an absolute NIGHTMARE! I think it has to do with the power stroke energy curve of a compound. Very violent and steep increase and fall off transfer from string to arrow verses the more constant transfer of energy from a trad bow. Who knows, maybe after I get it all tuned it’ll be forgiving. This is a nightmare so far though.
Go watch Ranch Fairy's video about bare shaft tuning and that'll help. Lots of people are doing it with all types of compound bows
This should not be that hard. His approach is to just line the bow up, start with what should be a couple of slightly over-spined bare shafts, and change the point weights until one of them just snaps out straight and perfect in a block target at 5-7 yards.
I’ve never understood why there is a controversy with this subject. It seems to me that people are simply missing the whole story when it comes to arrows and will only spout anecdotal evidence that fits their hunting situation/ bow setup.
*Not referring to Brandon your videos are awesome, keep them coming!
Let me save anyone reading this sometime. Instead of doing what I had to do which was go through countless videos of people telling me I needed heavy or light arrows.
There are three things to consider when it comes to Arrow weight.
1. What animal you are hunting.
2. What style of hunting.(spot and stalk or tree stand/ground blind)
3. Bow set up( trad or compound , poundage/drawl length) -to understand what type of speed you can reasonably accomplish
FIRST understanding the animal is obviously important when it comes to penetration because you will not need the same amount of kinetic energy to get through a antelope as you will with a a water buffalo. The bigger the animal the more kinetic energy you will need to reliably pass through it.
Secondly if you are going to be hunting in a tree stand/ground blind with reliable yardages that will most likely not go past 30 yards, you have no need to worry about trajectory loss. Or at least not very much need to worry. Especially when shooting a compound bow, At that point a heavy arrow has very little downside and will only help to pass through whatever you’re shooting especially in those worst case scenario shoulder socket shots. However in a spot in stock style of hunting, trajectory is VERY important. Many times shot opportunities are stretched out past 50 or 60 yards, Yes there are plenty of elk hunters who shoot these distances and practice much further, what’s ethical is going to be different based on archery skill level. Also with animals moving you will most likely have to guess yardage at least some of the time if not a majority of the time depending on what your hunting, for example: calling in elk.
If you fall into the spot and stalk Category Then your whole goal with an arrow set up should be to get an arrow with a great trajectory that will still reliably pass through which ever animal tyou are hunting. There are kinetic energy charts online to see how much kinetic energy you will need to reliably pass through different game. Many times people are shocked to find out how much more kinetic energy their bow produces as compared to what is recommended. Meaning, you don’t always need as heavy of an arrow to get reliable pass throughs on even the biggest North American game
This is where you’re bow set up comes into play. For example most bow hunters are shooting a 60 to 70 pound bow. With a compound bow most people will be able to pas through any animal in North America with 450 or so grains..... but if you shoot a 75 or 80 pound bow and you have a long draw giving you even more feet per second there are guys out there who can shoot a “heavy arrow” 550-650 grains and still have a fast bow shooting over 280 ft per second. They get the best of both worlds and can have a hero that is considered heavy with lots of kinetic energy but also has great trajectory. They don’t have to make the choice between light or heavy because they’re both set up allows them to shoot fast and heavy.
So at the end of the day a heavy or light arrow is just one part of a much larger equation and the answer depends on what you’re shooting what style of hunting and you’re bow set up. Once you understand those factors you can make an educated decision.
Amen to this 👍❗❗❗
Well said!
The only thing is, is that we don't rely on kinetic energy to kill animals it is all about momentum and heavier arrows have more and keep their momentum longer. KE is not really a number effecting archery because we aren't killing by a Shockwave
@@wk9953 KE is a physical quantity, like momentum is - the only reason the arrow is moving is his KE: no KE, no flying / moving arrow. (The word "kinetic" comes from the Greek word "kinetikos" which means "moving").
@@WM-jy9dz Correct though it still has no bearing on the lethality of an arrow
This is a great little test. I've seen some other tests where a lighter arrow is shot at a given distance with the bow sighted in then a heavy arrow is used but with the same sight in and the argument is "look how badly the arrow dropped, that's a miss" the major flaw is, who the heck goes into the woods, or even target shoots without sighting in !? A more valid test would be to sight in both setups, then shoot them both at 50 then 45 and 55 with the sight still set at 50 and see how far off the mark they are which would easily simulate that classic argument of "the elkboremoose took a step.." As far as shooting over fences or under branches goes, only the individual can know which scenario is more applicable to their hunting situation. Love this topic and all the various testing methods. Keep up the great work 👍
Brandon, thanks for the video. One thing I wish you had touched on was not just the time to target and the maximum height or drop but how that affects you in different hunting scenarios. Hunting elk or mule deer in the mountains would benefit from a faster arrow to provide a little forgiveness in yardage miscalculations. 5-8 inches could mean the difference between a whiff and a perfect shot.
I’d love to see a video showing the yard to yard differences with light, medium, and heavy arrows. I’m about to do my own testing this winter on that.
Hoping to get some good moving white tail deer shots this year so I can do some good speed to target videos, and why speed might matter when a deer is rolling out of the way!
Anecdotal nonsense to follow:
400 grain arrow at 285 fps from bow measured at 20-40-100 yards has a flight time of 0.22-0.44-1.14.
1200 grain arrow at 200 fps from bow measured at 20-40-100 yards has a flight time of 0.31-0.63-1.67
The argument for the heavy, slow arrow in that situation will be noise reduction. That’s a difficult thing to prove one way or the other
Watch some videos of deer being shot.. pay attention to the other deer on camera. The deer being shot hears the arrow coming at them not the bow. The others just kinda run off while the one being shot at ducks or Rolls depending on where the arrow will impact. I prefer to stay around 300 fps. That's 450 grains for me..
@@JSANDERS247 but a slower arrow with less drag also makes less noise. It’s not just the bow
@@terrymead4024 30 or 40 fps isn't making a huge difference in noise . But 40 fps could mean a ducked arrow at 30 yards
Great video as always. Keep it up!
I'm shooting a 610 gr arrow, with 250 gr up front and my pins are really consistent. With my broadheads on, they are flying noticeably higher than my field points which conveniently match my sight tape perfectly. Great video. 🏹👍
Sounds like your nock point needs to be raised up a bit. But if it works for you, go for it.
I just switched to an 80lb bow this year and I was amazed at how my flight flattened out with my hunting arrow (540gr @ 282fps) coming from using a 70lb bow for the past 2yrs.. I set up a target arrow that is 445gr @ 306fps and that sucker can't be climbing more than 4-5" at 50-60yds.. Thanks again for the great vid!!
I’m at 300 fps with my pse and it’s pretty crazy how flat that thing is. Bare shaft tuned to 30 and it’s a tac driver.
Great video! Especially when majority of bow kills are under 40 yards and rarely over. One thing you may or may not have noticed is typically the heavier arrows fly better and are unaffected by wind and our natural shooting flaws as much. This is why in Vegas or any indoor shoots they are running 600 plus type arrow weights for ultimate accuracy. Speed matters for unknown shooting and most don't do that so its irrelevant. If scope clearance is an issue people can run a go away from single, run horizontal pins and move your pins down in the housing to gain clearance back. Easier to see your bubble too especially when shooting further.
Great video.
Thank you for the video.
You're fucking hilarious man... AND my favorite resource for my budding bow hunting life... Your 5 bow review will be watched again... I went to Outdoor Emporium Seattle and asked some actually intelligent questions because of the information you presented...
Oh... And you need a link to Mere Mortal... I couldn't find it with a google search.
I think the most interesting analysis of what you did is to see how much 3 yds distance judging error makes between the two different setups. Arrow path can be convinient or inconvenient depending on the scenario. I haven’t been able to shoot stuff because my bow was too quick… keep up the good work buddy!!! 🙌
I think you’re doing more than fine! Still enjoy watching your stuff and seeing your posts.
I'm glad the information is being put out there clear and concise. Now I just wish people would pick a setup and know why that's what they went with, and stop shooting something because "so and so said this is the best". In the end, it's your setup. Take in the facts, all the facts, not just the ones that confirm your bias. Then build an arrow that is right for what you're doing.
Awesome info.
This is a Great video Brandon...I've had discussions with guys about the "super light/super heavy" 🏹 issue...I constantly tell guys that super fast and light is great at 30 yds. but going beyond that, the light arrow sheds speed faster than a heavy one at the same distance...When you said the differences start at the 40-50 yd range, that Completely validated what I've been saying about a heavier arrow having more momentum when it comes to 40+ yd shots...When I get my Ventum Pro in a couple of months, (I really can't see Hoyt topping the Ventum Pro in 2023, imho), I'm getting it cranked to 83-84#'s and I have about 15- 675 gr. arrows (with a 100 gr. field point), that I'm going to do this similar test with...If it even comes close to a decent clothesline shot at 50-60 yds., that'll be my Elk Missle instead of a 460 gr. or a 475 gr. Arrow...Thanks for the info!! 👍
Super interesting. I don't think the apex of the trajectory is necessarily at the half-way point when you account for drag; but probably close enough? Super cool you can see that much of a difference between the arrows - which are only in the air for milliseconds.
I just joined up a Albertan non profit, called the Veteran hunters. Healing through hunting for injured vets, police, first responders, military as well. Im hosting a vet this fall for elk. Im also an injured retired vet that i still want to serve others, so it helps with my healing. This is what i want to do for the rest of my days.
Damn, you're reading my mind...
I'm just in the process of trialling my lightest hunting arrow (410gn) for target and 3D too (where typically I run 295-325gn arrows).
I want to know what I'll be sacrificing in trajectory and range estimation error.
Also, much like a bullet, the arrow will lose speed as soon as it leaves the bow. Light arrows loose much more speed downrange, vs heavy arrows. Like a 6 to ten feet per second difference... But it's all a balancing of factors to make the arrow you need.
Ranch ferry did a really good video using a lab rated radar to track speed erosion over distance with different weights. It’s was a really good video. I suggest you seek it out.
@@jedhuf7548 Yes exactly. Great video. I had always know that's how it works based on comparable science, but that video is kinda proof in the pudding.
I was gonna say the same thing.
So anyone that wants an extra shot distance I have now put a small red sharpie dot dead center in my level so I have a 5 pin with a level dot. It gives me 20yrd pin all the way to the 70 with a heavy 683gr arrow only going 230fps. So not fast at all but at 60yrd it only looses 6 or 7 fps in flight. And hits hard at all distances. (I have even shot to 135yrd almost no penetration difference and still hits bag almost on flat plane.)
The top of my bubble was perfectly at 122 yards with my TAC setup. It was ironic that a Buffalo target was perfectly at 122. I made sure to make a good wager on that one lol. Lots of luck involved but I nailed it dead nuts! Lol
My first time on this channel, very good. You seem pretty methodical about things and no bs. Subscribed.
If you haven't done one yet, I'd really like to see a good breakdown of the "max point blank range" (it's said different ways, but...) single pin setups.
It's hard to find anything in depth, especially with video.
From what I've read, you can set the single pin in the center of the arrows' "convergence area" (high and low), with that portion being the "flattest" arrow fight of all yardages within that window. (not entire trajectory, but where all shots converge). Faster the arrow, the more room for error.
Supposedly what happens is, instead of guessing say, 25/30/35 yardages, you just put the one pin center of the vitals (providing the animal isn't directly under you or within 10 yards), and you're 3" high, 3"low, or bullseye (depending on arrow speed, that would change the numbers for better or worse).
I'd really appreciate a video on this.
Thanks.
I set my single pin at 30 if I’m using one to hunt white tail and you’re exactly right about the impacts. I’m not dialing to 34, just firing and hitting a tad low. There is a perfect spot for each fps to maximize the high end and low end though. Good video idea.
@@brandonmcdonald6121
Wow thank you for responding so quickly.
And yes, a video on the subject would be awesome. Looking forward to it.
I shoot a “moderately” heavy arrow at 556gr somewhere in the 270fps range. I love it. My pin gaps are so consistent from 20-60 yards with a 5 pin sight. I think it’s a perfect balance of weight and speed. I love having the conversation though. It’s fun to bounce ideas off each other.
I’m with you man. It’s all about balance
That’s where I want to be right at 550 I feel like it’s heavy but not ridiculous
One thing to watch out for is shooting through your target. I shoot the VAP SS and I blew through a brand new Bone Collector target so now I have to put an old block behind it so I don’t shoot through my garage wall again
@@kylenusbaum1080 I just bought a sevr target and it stops the arrows pretty good
thats right about where i am. 561grn arrows at ~275fps (75# 29.5"DL) i have a 1 pin slider and have shot great groups out to 80 with it. cant wait for a shot opportunity this season with it, keeping it max 50 though for game
Measuring the difference in trajectory at the halfway point basically halves the values that we want to see, we want to see the gap at the distance not half way... the arrows will continue to see more separation during the second half of travel....
I did this test over a year ago. Going from a 440 grain to a 480 grain arrow was enough for me to pick the 440 grain arrow. The trajectory was the deciding factor for me and the test I did got me where I wanted to be. Definitely, test it yourself to decide on what you want.
Test for yourself and decide 100% I also think about what game I’m after and the conditions
I've been to trad shoots that had obstacles in the path of the target. As you said if you knew the trajectory was going to clear the obstacle you held for the spot you wanted. It caused a LOT of people to misjudge their shot
Awsome video!!
I actually did that for the hellofit, last yr. I used my 20 yd pin at 30(Xbow, Hawke scope, synced to 100, about 540 grns), aimed hi on target, and hit about 4" low. Then, I shot at 40, using my 30 yrd pin. I hit the EXACT same spot! My conclusion-Hawke scopes are awesome, but I really don't know what the highest point of my trajectory was, compared to a 410 grn bolt, doing the same thing.
Going from a really heavy arrow to a medium arrow this year I’m way happier. My 20&30 yard pins almost touch, and I’m not psyched out about deer stepping away from one ranged zone to another like last year. I have a better FOC as well because I’m using an arrow shaft that’s less GPI so I’ll still get great penetration and flight, but a flatter shot. Over 600 just isn’t necessary for whitetail but every just go ahead and do what you want and try for yourself.
You should look into the "trick pin" method of using your sight if you're that worried about it.
@@rkayser89 not worried about it as much as just realized I didn’t need as much weight in actual shaft as I had. With a lighter shaft I have higher FOC but not so much weight that it messes with trajectory as much. I still have 150 grains up front total, and may push out to 200. It’s just my personal experience and we all work differently.
Looks like fun messing with the paper for giggles & grins. So many that use a single pin/dot sight don't have a clue as to what the arrow is doing as far as where it's going to hit if the target moves closer/farther than the distance dialed. People need to know what the " point blank range" is for their arrow speed. If one wants a maximum target kill zone diameter of say 4". That's 2" above ans 2" below the intended hit spot. If the target moves 4-5 yards farther than what your pin is set-how high should you hold the pin, if any, to hit your original desired spot? People need to shoot enough to get an idea. This concept works very well until you get longer yardages included.
I fully agree with you! I'll add some info that I learned they'd my own experience: my bow is zeroed to 30 yards so that I can get more range out of my sight. Lots more goes into that but back to the topic, at 20 yards of I hold a full hand length low, I'll hit the bullseye. At 30 yards I'm dead on, at 35 yards I aim just below the top of the back and I'm in the vital v, and at 40 if I aim just above the top of the back I'll be in the vital v. Honestly people need to take their gear and train differently than they already do so that they know what their capabilities really are. It's simple holding over/ under like using a red dot optic. Different systems but similar concept.
I'm around 560 grains.. I feel like it gives me the weight I want and a pin gap I can deal with. Went up above 600 and I just wasn't happy with the trajectory of my shots.. I hunt Whitetails and most of the time atleast have a chance to range or know they are 20 or 30 .. But being in situations where it maybe a 40 yard shot I just couldn't deal with my 40 yard pin being on the shoulder and my 50 being on the leg lol
Lighted nocks would've taken this video to the next level
I have found my pin gaps are the same out to 40 yards between my 714 gr arrow and my 920 gr arrow. I just have to drop my slider from 40 to 43. I might have some fun with that this year. Edit: Three whitetail seasons at 714 gr and tags were all filled. Have not had one beat my arrow yet.
I try to build an arrow that will fly between 270 and 285 FPS with as much foc I can get. Current set up is 70lb 29in at 455g at 16.9% foc. My old Hoyt carbon matrix slings them at 280fps on the money. I’ve shot the same set up at 480 and was at 272fps. Both shot good however I like it better at 280. Probably just in my head but I feel better about it lol. This would have been a cool test of you did the lighted nock overlay like your older video Brandon! 👍🏻
I spent "wasted" a bunch of money building some heavy FOC arrows. I shoot a PSE NXT 33, buddy of mine shoots the Drive NXT and came over to do some broad head tuning with me. We are same in draw weight and length. I started noticing his arrows where in the target a great bit more than mine. Both use G% Montecs. His arrows are setup at 371 grains, mine were 575 and 16% FOC. 20-50 yards he would pernitrate further EVERYTIME. I went back to speed and have not looked back since. Lighter, faster means dead quicker.
The targets are a different material than an animal. I did the same experiment with a buddy of mine and thought the same. Heavy will penetrate better through an animal. The question is, is penetration the only variable. No is clearly the answer. I prefer some balance with an arrow around 280-290 fps.
I switched to a much heavier arrow and higher foc last year. I am shooting a 680 grain arrow at 260 fps. Getting best arrow flight I have ever had and I shot a doe the other day that the hemorrhaging beneath the hide on exit side of ribs looked like she had been shot with a rifle! I have learned my trajectory and feel good out to 40-50 yards. Not going to be making shots farther than that in the woods on any type of game so I am good. Just for reference I managed a commercial bowhunting lodge for 4 years where we harvested over 100 whitetails each year and I have seen the problems of arrows that are too light for those that are chasing speed. No bow is fast enough to get to the animal before it can move if it is trying to coil it muscles to leave in a hurry from hearing your bow or the arrow in flight. I would rather be shooting an arrow than can have a chance to push through bone if the animal moves before gets to where I was aiming.
The old saying " would you rather get hit with a fast wiffle ball or a slower baseball". Lol
you comparing apples with oranges here - due to the mass difference (weight whiffle ball vs weight baseball) the whiffle ball would require the same inverted ratio wrt speed (speed whiffle ball vs speed baseball) to achieve the same momentum (mass x velocity). If this requirement would be fulfilled (and if the whiffle ball would have similar structural integrity of the baseball) the damage would actually be the same!!! However, with the existent equipment it is impossible to accelerate the whiffle ball to the required speed where it could match the momentum of the baseball as the friction losses at such a high speed would require a much higher KE..
@@WM-jy9dz that was air to take in... But very interesting thx
Ranch fairy did a speed test @ 60 yards, lighter arrows lost more speed than heavier arrows @that 60 yards
It doesn't take a fairy to prove it. Physics already has.
Good on you for actually doing some real testing on it before putting your thoughts out there. That is more than some youtubers can say.
How about a video showing how much each arrow hits high or low if you misjudge yardage by 5 yards at 20, 30, 40, etc
Awesome video. I see your a Tennessee man so I was wondering if you applied for a Tennessee elk tag?
Very interesting
Was interesting to me as well.
Great video. What is that bow/arrow holder that you have??
It would be nice to have done that test shooting only 60#. I mostly shoot unmarked 3D.
Heavy keeps that momentum. There are points of no return, but I feel anything about 450 is good regardless of draw weight and length. Just a feeling backed up anecdotally.
You are bang on! The window for any draw length I believe is 440-520 short draws would be closer to the 440 grain range snd 30 inch draw closer to the 520 grain
450 is too light for game.
550 is decebt
@@MyLonewolf25 why do you think 450 is to light? I’ve blown through bull Canadian moose from 68 yards with 450 grains. 550 grains is a tad heavy and unless you have a 30 inch draw your pin gaps will be terrible snd your arrow will not have as flat of a trajectory so if your off by a yard or the animal moves you’ll completely miss
@@toddlymburner5783 Pin gaps decrease on heavier arrows because their flight over 60 yards is less parabolic.
@@Anthony-fk2zu and pin gaps decrease even more with higher poundage! If I shoot a 600 grain arrow with both my 70 pound bow and 80 pound bow the pin gaps are WAY smaller with my 80 pound bow! Using the same heavy arrow!
An ask if you will, love the Mere mortal archery line. Bought a shirt in the first round I believe it was however can you get a few bigger sizes? The shirts run a little small for us big boys. 2XL and 3XL would be awesome
Just spent my paycheck on hunting gear, but ill buy a hat and tee next mounth !!!
I used to shoot full metal jackets 5mm 460 grains. Now I shoot the Easton axis 5mm 340 spine and they are 430 grains. So I am going for a faster setup. And the axis fly great.
Great info! I'm drinking the Ranch Fairy cool-aid because that's the style of hunting I do. I live in south Georgia and primarily hunt from a tree stand or saddle. Hunting down here every shot is close because the woods are so thick. The benefits of hunting with heavy arrows out way the negatives. Oh ,buy the way I shoot a 60 lb Elite with a 685 grain arrow tipped with 200 grain VPA single bevel.
Currently shooting 640 grains with an 80lb hoyt. I haven’t tested it but I bet at 60 yards the arrow only climbs about 14-15 inches, it’s not much!
I am sure there are folks out west that have shot through Elk at long ranges, trajectory considerd with heavy arrow setups. I believe with current trends, that will happen much more. That heavy arrow is going to be more lethal.
I have.
Even with a recurve shooting sub-200 fps, and 700 grain arrows to boot.
@@stephenballard3759. I believe it.
@@davidholliday2703 Certainly not often. Most of my shots are closer.
Actually, The Hunting Public & Ranch Fairy/Rocket Man did radar test out to 60 yards with different weight arrows. They proved that heavier arrow loose less speed than light arrows. Hard to slow a train down.
Not to mention how much more quiet the bow is with heavy arrows.
...not to mention how much more noisy the heavy arrows are with the big fletching....
I haven't even watched yet but solid thumbnail
When it comes down to it, if it's accurate and super quiet (heavy arrows are) and carry loads of momentum for penetration......why the hell not? I love shooting long range....100+....with my 3D setup (391 grains), however when it comes to a flat out silent shot and best chance at full penetration when it comes to whitetails.....I'm rocking a 660 grain arrow this fall with a high quality cut on contact 3 blade head.
Brandon, I think you missed the mark here🤔. When archers I know are talking about a flatter trajectory, with lighter faster arrows, they and I mean the following: if I'm using a single pin sighted in at 30 yards and a deer 🦌 comes into my circle of death, I can kill said deer even if I have miss judged the yardage by 10 yards. My arrow is flying flatter, therefore my margin of error is a lot smaller.
Try doing the test again using the same arrows. This time sight them in at 20 yards and back up 10 yards at a time. Then you will see which arrows fall out of the kill zone faster.
I love watching your channel.
Good luck this bow season.🏹🦌
its the speed (distance / time) that manifests in the trajectory. The drop / error in case of misjudging the distance varies significantly with distance and speed - reason is that the longer the arrow flies (the longer the time it needs from A to B) the longer gravity can accelerate the arrow in vertical direction, thus the faster the vertical speed component becomes, thus the further the arrow travels towards the ground, thus the bigger the drop / error is.
Eta: it might come as a surprise, but the vertical speed has nothing to do with mass - this quantity is only a function of gravity and time. (drop a lighter arrow and a heavier arrow from the same height and they will reach the ground at the same time).
A great book suggestion for mere mortals is Mere Christianity. Extremely thought provoking
Going heavy is just a mindset shift that has a different set of constraints you work within. But you gain better penetration. I think it’s an error to decide on which “way” you should go based in individual shots, but instead look at the overall difference in constraints and whether the better penetration is worth it.
I’d argue there are next to no constraints the heavy arrows introduce that are not easily overcome by the benefits of a heavy arrow on penetration.
Not going to lie the Dave and karin thing freaked me out
RIP DUDLEY
Ha! My middle name is David and my wife's name is Karen, and yeah, it was a little disconcerting when you said that. But I'm already subscribed so I knew you were just messing with me...
I shoot 663g Day6 with Day6 EvoX broadheads out of 73lb Elite Energy. It destroys every deer I shoot, but its important to say I only hunt whitetails and never shoot past 40 yards because of how jumpy they are, and 95% of my shots are under 25 yrds
My in laws are named Dave and Karen, that’s pretty close right? 😂
I shoot 533. It’s a little less forgiving that my old stock arrows at around 475. But the extra momentum has had some impressive penetration results. I’ve been on the fence about trying heavier.
You had me going there for a few seconds before you mentioned my wife Karen. Phew! Thought I had gotten drunk last night and had gotten married to the gal at the bar. Named Karen. Thankfully no. Good vid.
You use a doppler radar and redo this to see the drop in speed too
I really don't get the heavy arrow or extreme F.O.C. for hunting whitetail deer especially from a treestand.
I shoot a 415 grain arrow at 285 fps
and it has enough energy at 60 yards to blow through a whitetail or an elk and it makes very little noise at the shot.
It seems like no one is willing to talk about what really matters, accuracy and everything it takes to be consistently accurate from tuning your bow to practice, practice, practice. ☝This is the key to success along with understanding the animals body language, you must be able to read the animal and determine if the shot is there or not.
Stealthy, undetected all the way until you release the arrow is the goal at the moment of truth.
They all talk about arrow tuning and accuracy
Not worried about closer shots. Its when the animal moves further away and you have to guess the difference. Wound, miss, or ???
I think, imho, shoot a 20 ydpin @ 40 (hold top of tgt) to see the difference in drop. And a 30yd @ 50/60. Whats the difference in drop now. But good stuff!!
🏹🎯
Can you do another video comparing how much room for error you have in ranging the target? In other words, how close does your ranging have to be for each arrow to still hit vitals on a deer?
I’m going to do a walk back during my speed to target video. You should try with your setup though so you understand what you’re working with. Start at 20 with your 20 pin and then step back to 25 and shoot the same pin at the same spot.
@@brandonmcdonald6121 thanks, interested to see your results. I think it will be valuable for guys like me who are still shooting lightweight arrows and considering moving into the world of heavy arrows but haven’t invested the $$ yet. Trajectory and margin of error for ranging is the main question that has kept me from committing to it.
Good Day. I tried to order a hat and t shirt from Canada. The address options at check out are the US and Australia. Wondering if/when they will be available in Canada. I'd love to support this worthy cause. Thanks.
Can you email me MeremortalArchery@gmail.com and I’ll see what I can do. please put something big and crazy in the subject line so I see it!
there are more flaws in the testing setup: 1. the trajectory depends also on the FOC (that's why a lot of 3D archers shoot a very low (to neutral) FOC to get a flat trajectory. 2. the apex is usually not in the middle of the distance as it depends on the speed erosion / deceleration of the arrow. 3. obviously, if you shoot a higher poundage bow, the trajectories will look similar - do the same test with a 40# bow and you will come likely to another conclusion.
Overall, most archers are not concerned so much with the trajectory - it's the speed (the trajectory reflects the speed), and if you have an arrow that's 30% slower it will need 30% more time to reach the target / game.
I also try to compromise with weight vs speed as I have a 60 lb TRIAX but only 27” draw length
So speed is more important to me to a point than weight
I live in SE Massachusetts
Hunt primarily white tails and coyotes so shot opportunities past 30-40 yrds are rare
But like ability to reach out for 3D shooting
Since I can’t afford 2 bows lol
Compromise is the order
do you give veterans discounts ,i want to buy one of your older bows and would like it signed please !
I'm 15 shooting 25" at 65 pounds, meaning my fps is very critical for me. I'm shooting 245-260fps on an average light arrow. Ik you lose a ton of fps at 60yrds with a lighter arrow, and lose much less with a higher grain arrow. Is the deficit in loss of fps at launch, but less loss at further distances worth switching to a heavy setup?
Check out the ‘ranch fairy s’ recent vids... he breaks this down with ridiculous amounts of details ...
If you are hunting, shooting heavy is preferred
It may be MORE worth it, due to the slight "disadvantage" of a short draw legth. Heavier arrows take more energy with them, maintain it for longer and have an advantage in penertration and lethality, especially when the FRONTS are heavy.
I shoot trad bows, some of which I make out of little trees, from scratch. My lightest arrows weigh in the 585 range, and my heaviest weigh @740.
My fastest setup probably touches 194 fps at 10 gpp, and my slowest may be 166 or so, shooting over 12 gpp.
I kill mule deer and elk with no problem, and rarely miss a year. Sometimes at 8 yards, sometimes out to 50+.
According to the industry hype, that should be nearly impossible.
I don’t know if it would make a cool video or not but I wonder what that difference would be in just a couple yards. Like if you ranged an animal at 40 and it takes a few yards back or forward. Zero them both at 40 and shoot at 45 and see the difference in the drop. Or even 60 and 65
the impact a variation of a "few yards" have on the drop varies significantly with distance and speed - reason is that the longer the arrow flies (the longer the time it needs from A to B) the longer gravity can accelerate the arrow in vertical direction, thus the faster the vertical speed component becomes, thus the further the arrow travels towards the ground, thus the bigger the drop is.
@@WM-jy9dz I get that. I just would like to see the difference between the two
First you need to shoot both arrows out of the same lb bow. Out to 30-40 yds use what you want the difference starts to show after 40.
Were these shot from the same bow? At the weights and velocities quoted the 385 & 900 grain examples at 304 & 200 fps respectively have similar energy (~79 lb ft) but the 600 grain example at 275 fps is 28% higher (101 lb ft)... what were you shooting that one from?
Kinetic energy isn’t really the part of the equation I like to look at. Momentum is the part that matters more. Obviously they’re connected. I say what bows are use in the video but one was the 75 pound VXR and one was my 70 pound Ventum. The 600 g arrow was shot out of Vxr. Check the momentum of the different set ups in the momentum on the 900 green arrow is going to crush the other ones
I may have missed it. Did you put the paper at 35 yards when you were shooting 70 yards?
What are you shooting a 600 grain arrow at 270 fps with?
I’m shooting a 540 grain arrow on a 75lb vertix with 29” draw. It’s only chrono at 242. Seems little slow any ideas?
...with such a setup it should be around 265 fps, so yes, 20 fps less seems unusual - did you check the 75# on the draw board? if the cables are stretched your are loosing poundage easily.
@@WM-jy9dz I have not checked to see if it’s pulling exactly 75. From what I’ve been reading most matthew’s are a pound or two heavy, but I need to confirm. Got some new GAS strings couple months ago
@@brettlynch2707 maybe they made a mistake with the GAS strings - too long, too short, not pre-stretched. If the data from your scale (TAW) and chrono is correct, you need a bow press and a draw board to find out what's wrong. And there is definitely something wrong as your bow should shoot this arrow easily with 260 fps and above. here a pathway for the troubleshooting: 1) check that your really have the right draw weight modules on the bow 2) put it on a draw board and check the actual peak draw weight 3) put it in a bow press, take the strings out and measure the length of cables, yoke and bow string and compare them with the manufacturer data.
If you don't have a press and a draw board, a bow shop could do all this checks in 1/2 hour. Another cause for lost of poundage (if this is the real cause for the speed issue) could be that the bow was once dry-fired (with the new strings) - if this happened, the cables and the string can be stretched and may even have some broken strands under the serving so it is not obvious to the eye. If there is a chance that this happened in the past: stop shooting the bow and get everything checked first.
Eta: wrt "one or two pound too heavy": if you lost more than 20 fps we talking about a loss in order of 10# - 15#.
I asked one local shop if 240 sounded slow and if my cam mods are correct but they didn’t put much energy into it. They shoot more target than hunting though. Going to ask them to look into it a little more given your suggestions
@@brettlynch2707 just google "Vertix and modules" or give Mathews a call and you can check the modules on your own ....or just publish the code / number on your modules here. You could also ask another archer to shoot your bow - 75# are pretty challenging, and if someone shoots e.g. "only" #65 he/she should notice the difference. You might have just 60# or 65# modules which would explain the speed. (The bow still is a "75#" bow - with the mx. modules).
The heavy arrow argument / discussion is well represented by the Ranch Ferry and others who have done legitimate research. I’d like to see the “notion” of deer ducking the “sound of the arrow” discussed. First of all, we know that the sound of the bow travels at well, the speed of sound, while an arrow is typically in the range of say 250 to 290 fps. The likely response is that the deer is recoiling from the sound of the bow going off in an effort to escape whatever made said noise and in doing so, ducks the arrow that he hasn’t heard yet. Asking for a friend…
The ducking is usually the hissing of the fletching and broadhead as they approach a deer. The fletching hissing pitch is more alarming then the thud of the bow. It's why when you shoot in a field the deer that ducks is the one youre shooting at and not all the deer in the field. You want less hiss shoot a lower profile fletch
They aren’t actually ducking. They are loading their legs in order to take off. That makes them drop lower. I don’t disagree that the sound of the arrow flying doesn’t spook them as well. I try to find the most quiet fletching I can and use a broadhead that doesn’t make a ton of noise. Whether the arrow noise matters or not I’m not sure. I think it probably can
Another thing when shooting heavy arrows is, noise. Your bow is not as loud.
Im never worried about the speed of the arrow. Its what happens when it gets to the target. Im more concerned with a COMPLETE passthrough. No flappers #ranchfairy
great video. Use the term "maximum ordinate" when referring to the highest point of a projectile's trajectory - its more sciency
I love heavy arrows, the shoot through a small gap is an argument for light fast arrows, but what about an obstruction between yourself and the target, like a branch half way, in that situation a super fast flat shooting arrow wouldn't work but a heavy arcing one would. I don't condone trick shots LOLOL...
If you hit a branch halfway between you and you’re target weight will not matter it will still deflect to bad.
@@riverbanks3287 missing the point, using the arc of a heavy arrow over a branch, like I said I don't condone trick shots on live animals, and obviously if you hit a branch your arrow is going elsewhere LOL
@@riverbanks3287 Imagine the apex of the curve arcing over the branch, can't do that with a laser shooting bow, much like you can't really put an arrow through a tiny gap with an arrow that's arcing a ton in flight....
@@michaelficarro2591 yeah sorry brother miscommunication I was surely he doesn’t think it’s just gonna blow through something and stay on course
@@riverbanks3287 get me some of them brush busting arrows...LOL
Ok so I had to pause the video and get 2 shirts. Already had a hat.
I'm a believer in shooting what gives you the most confidence in taking the animal cleanly. I only shoot whitetails. I shoot a 375 grain arrow at 315 fps. I didn't choose that arrow weight on purpose. I was given arrows to try that were the correct spine for my bow and I set it up and 375 grains is what it turned out to be. It's devastating on whitetails. I shot a buck at almost 30 yards and I hit his shoulder. I broke both front shoulders pinning the heart with the arrow. He plowed for 60 yards then expired. Both front legs were flopping loose when loading him in the truck. I just read a comment of another archer that is shooting 82lbs of kinetic energy shooting an arrow that is almost 200 grains heavier than my arrows. I'm Shooting just over 80lbs of kinetic energy with my lighter arrows. I'm shooting so much faster that the energy is almost the same. I realize momentum is also key but wanted to give apples to apples. He only listed his kinetic energy. I have bow hunted for 50 years now. I've shot slow bows, fast bows, heavy arrows and light arrows. The setup I have now is the best I've ever had for whitetails. If I were going moose hunting I would adjust my setup accordingly. Having a tuned bow and putting the arrow where it needs to go is key no matter what you shoot.
The high point is not at half distance
He conveniently disregards that little fact doesn't he? So he either doesn't know or knowingly made a falsified video
I only shoot 235 fps lol but I bow hunt and I get within 25 yards to me is what it's about and speed isn't important to me
I like the ability to go further out, but at 25 yards, 235 gets it done
I just don't feel iam that good any more but keep up the great work with your videos always enjoy them
I hate this topic. 350g arrow or 900g arrow will kill a whitetail easily especially with properly tune bow and sharp broadheads
How many 1000 yard or 1 mile competition shooters do you see shooting 55gr projectiles? Zero. Because those lightweight projectiles lose speed very fast at extended ranges and are very prone to wind drift. What you see is a heavier projectile that maintains it's supersonic velocity as far as possible. The goal here is a projectile that makes it to (and through) the target before losing too much speed and energy. The far end of that drop chart is less steep with a heavier arrow than a light arrow. Newton's law an object in motion will stay in motion, the more mass the better it overcomes the friction of the air reducing it's speed. There are obviously other considerations to be made, but having an arrow that reaches your target (60-80 on an elk?) with more energy is definitely preferable. Any distance in between it still had more mass and momentum. I also enjoy the conversation and controversy around heavier arrows, I find it interesting.