Camaro SS Episode 7: 3.91 Gears were a Big Mistake
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2020
- Sometimes you gotta go backwards before you go forwards..
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26 vs 28" tire size change, and 1500' of DA difference, and sub-optimal traction on the "after" hits have a lot to do with why the 3.91s didn't seem to gain you what you thought they would. 26" tire with the factory gear is like going to a 3.55, so you're really not appreciating a huge gearing change going from 3.27/26" to 3.91/28". Locking the converter on the back half of the track would really help keep the RPMs down where that cam is happiest. Go back to Cecil in November with the negative air, make the 28" tires hook, lock the converter, and it would really boogie.
It's good results for sure, and awesome to see the progression - but I do think it's a bit of a mischaracterization to blame the gear change when you have such a dramatic change in weather, the tire difference, and can clearly hear the car struggling to hook on some of the "slower" passes. I know you have since changed the cam, added lockup out the back, and I know for a fact our SS3 VVT loves/needs the 3.91 gearing to give it's best. I would imagine the new setup has really proved to you just how exception your stock gear/stall/SS1 VVT pass really was, and why it was so hard to replicate. Negative DA has a bit of a compounding effect, and it really makes stuff fly!
Thank you for representing the 5th gen well. It's hard for me when ever other video I see is one getting gapped because it not set up correctly. Keep it up!!
I appreciate that! Thanks man 🤘
Sorry to hear that. Looking forward to seeing the results of putting the stock gears back in!
Hopefully will be real soon! Looking to hit up the track asap
3.73 seems to be the sweet spot for 6L80s you may want to try that but every car is different what works on 1 might not work on another keep grinding bro
I definitely will be waiting to see the next video man all your videos have been a tone of help or knowledge thank youu
Thank you brother!
Great looking car; runs like a beast. Thank you for the test and tune info. Alot of useful info here. Appreciated!!👍. I know exactly how you feel after swapping parts back n forth, but in the end it's all fun.stay safe!
Thanks man!
My buddy had his 2010 ss heads cam and 150 shot of nitrous running 10s.. my car with cam only and 75 shot nitrous will run High 11s out here in high altitude.. Good shit keep up the good content
Thanks bro!
Shift points have to be off, with a 3.91 I picked up 1.5 tenths in the 1/8th. My car has stock motor, all the bolt-on's, 1 piece driveshaft, Circle D 3200, and 125 shot. The rear axles aren't going to hold 1.5X 60' times for long. I swapped the clutch pack diff to the True-Trac (what the car should have came with), and it launches dead straight every time now.
Prep plays so much of a part as to how well you run though. Everything can be perfect, but bad prep = bad runs.
The best tire I have ran is the ET Street R. Good prep and I cut 1.4X 60'. The more pressure you can run the better. With great prep I can run 21 psi and dead hook.
my 3.91 gears blew out on me , going back to stock diff , great content ! new subscriber here
Thanks much appreciated!🤘
Sucks to hear that, how did you like them?
It's well known the A6 6L80 performs best with 3.45 gears. Due to the short first gear anything greater you go backwards. Also when you get a cam, you will cross the line at 7000rpm in 4th with the 3.45s. With 3.9s you will definitely hit 5th before the line. I'm saying all this based on my few hundred time slips and other cars I've seen.
The manual 3.42s are going to be your best best
That is correct more is not always better.
Sick ride
Ok. I see what u talking about. I have the. 3.73 gears. And thinking going back to the stock gears. Nice ride
Thanks man!
I’ve always been told and had a few experiences with large converters.. when u do a big converter switching gears isn’t very beneficial. You just risk being out of the power band.. I’ve alway been a fan of stock gearing with a big converter and a 26 inch tire. Just seems to work great 👍 hopefully you’ll figure it out man. Maybe time for heads cam intake to get power up?
Hell yeah thanks bro 🤘 I think a SS3 or SS4/Ported Heads/Ported intake manifold is in the future for sure
@@The1st60ft go big or go home bro lol. Hopefully it’ll do work
Good video!
Thanks man!
Not surprised at the loss of mph at the end, but losing .3 tenths is crappy and surprising. A lot of people run this combo too. It likely makes for a much more fun street ride with occasional track use, but once you dedicate to full track purpose the 3.27's could be the better bet. Glad we have people like you testing these things out for us! I will likely still do the 3.91s with either a 3800 or 4k, but I will still be driving it around town a lot. Fairly certain I will be ditching my GPI SS1 for an SS3 though.
Also, just an FYI on the Vararam. My Vararam tail section was cracked on the neck right where the steel reinforcement ring is. It was around 1.75" long and was very close to becoming a vacuum leak. I fixed it with flex seal tape for now and will plastic weld it soon. I have been trying to tell other people that are running them to just take a look at theirs to check for any cracks in that location.
Thanks bro! I'll have to inspect mine asap
@@The1st60ft No problem man. It was fine when new of course, but I assume it cracked from being removed/reinstalled multiple times when working on the car. I always make sure to not overtighten the clamp, so who really knows.
He was running in low DA too soo
@@nayotejesse8904 and?
@@Taylor11flattracker so that means he’s gonna go faster
I ran 11.40 at Atco last month. 3.91 gears and a circle d 3200 triple disc. Had 20" z28 replica wheels with 305 nitto dr's.
Yeah last month was much better air. What engine mods?
@@The1st60ft GPI cam and ECS Novi 1500 Supercharger on a conservative tune. It's got 10's in it just gotta get back to my tuner.
I'm thinking with the 3.27 gears it will not need to shift into 5th making you able to go through the traps in 4th gear and if you get a good 60 foot 1.57-1.60 should get you into the low 11s like 11.1 at 124mph l think the 3.27 gears are fine with the low 4.03 transmission 1st gear these cars like higher stall converters would rather put a higher stall and keep the stock 3.27 gears car ran 11.3 with a stock stall and gears would think just the 3800 stall without the 3.91 gears would be worth 4 to 5 tenth with the stock 3.27 gears that should put you around 10.9-11.0 at 124-125mph
What do you think about 3.73 gears for a 5th gen SS manual?. Strictly street use.
When I had 3.90 done in my c5 I felt like it needed a cam with power in the high rpm range because those gears get the car into the high r’s faster
Yeah I think your right. If I had a big cam that spun to 7k it would be much better
Facts
Bingo
I have a friend with a supercharged SS and he was telling me the stock gear is a lot better than the 3.91. He didn’t go into full detail of why, but I kind of see why in this video. I was thinking of going 3.91 next season, but I’m definitely reconsidering now
People like going with a 391 gears because it goes through the gear faster but if you make enough power you don't need go ahead and put 3.91 gears or higher you'll just lose steam faster
It just depends man not every setup is the same. If you have a manual it's a totally different thing. Also if you have a big cam and pull to 7k or higher with a manual a 3.91 seems like a good choice but with a big stalled auto maybe not so much. There is no perfect answer to what gear works best it depends on the setup.
@Adublife, boosted cars do better with longer gearing is the details was probably going to give you
I wanna see more of the camaro
We just posted some most recent videos of it and another vid this weekend! Thank you for your support 🤘
Yikes! Didn't see that coming. Get it fixed up!
Will do buddy
What would you recommend to set one up
Going to a taller tire would be alot less work/cost and get you at the top of the rpm when crossing the line and possibly more traction...
Definitely true! But my brother is letting me use his 3.27 rear from his G8 so we can get some more data. Had it swapped back out in a few hours 🤘
It’s weird because the M6 community recommends 3.91’s as if its the #1 upgrade for these cars. I guess the gearing is a lot different in the A6. PS it kills me seeing the autos make passes like this at the quarter!! I’m over here shifting gears and the autos are gone!!!
M6 cars need 4.10s (or more).
This is disappointing to see. Thanks for giving me something to think about. I was going to do same to my 11SS. A 3800 and 3.91 my car is painful from go with the 3.27 then again I have a fat convertible. I was using it as a daily and most roads are 40 to 45 on my commute it struggles to get to 6th just too slow speed. Think i will hold off on convertor and go with 3.91s still.
Stock converter and 3.91s would probably be nice together. Not both converter and gears tho 🤣
I would do the converter instead of the gears honestly I think it would help alot more. You want responsiveness off the line or any time you lay into it converter is the way to go.
Lol I just manual swapped my 97 328i and it came with a 3.91 from the auto transmission. I HATE IT! I'm gonna fine a 2.93 ASAP so I can drive my car normal
Put a taller tire on the drag strip on it, it takes gear out.
i know my comment is a year too late...but differential ratios and transmission ratios are integral to one another.so when gen5 owners upgrade to the 3.91 gears...they just need to reference all the engineering that gn has done already. the 3.91ratio was for the 1le sub model. 1le model came exclusively with the manual transmission. so...swap to 3.91 if you have the ls3 only.
Do you think it would of helped if you would of had a much bigger cam in such as a btr4 or gpi ss4? I was gonna do gears in my car but might retract on that and just do the converter
Yes I do think a big cam would've helped cuz then you could rev it out further for sure
Right even if I do go with a bigger cam I may still leave my gear alone .
Geez just found your runs sick car man. I drive a m6 so makes me cry inside wishing I had gone a6 lol
🤣🤣🤣
Thanks you much appreciated
I drive a M6,,Cant cut the times, but sure is fun to drive.
nice
Have you considered stepping down to a 3.70 gear. I have one in my 5th gen but haven't run it at the track yet.
I'm definitely going down in gear. Probably dropping to a 3.45 Gear over the winter
That GPI is bad and whoever tuned it got it running real clean . Transmission too
Is this an LS3 or L99; M6 or A6? I plan on upgrading my axles and diff at the same time with BMR suspension and my procharger
L99 A6
Outta curiosity, when you upgraded the 3.91 gears and the bushings and went to the 28, did you retune or just switch parts and went back at it?
Retune for correct shift points and speedo readout
Thanks for the 5th Gen Videos, Are you still on stock 1/2 shafts.
Thank you for the support. Yeah stock
Ran into this with a th400 swapped trans am. We went with a slightly lower gear set & killed 60ft pretty significantly & some mph. It wasn't loading the converter as hard with the lower gear,which it was a nitrous/blower converter & was kinda tight to begin with.
Yes exactly. I'm going to a 3.45 gearset next
What gear you recommend I’m pretty much FBO just need to change manifold & TB got a 4K stall with stage 4 cam, heads, e85 just trying to figure out the gears next I’m between 3.91 & 3.73
I would suggest 3.73s. I just think 3.91s are too much gear for the 6l80e/4k stall combo
Just curious what are the biggest changes on going 3.91s? I’m leaning towards getting some
Just more aggressive gearing. Really gets our cars moving that weight much easier
So if I have a manual, with stock tires and rims, and I'm looking for a better gear ratio in the rear... what should I go for? 3.73, 3.91, or 4.10
It all depends on what you plan to do with the car. 3.45s are perfect for power adder cars. Bolton car would be great with 3.91s. Cammed would probably work best with 3.73s. I've learned that each power level has an optimal gearset
Where can I find upgraded carbon steel clutches?
CamaroCentral.com
Personally I feel like the 3.91 gears seem to be better for roll racing than drag racing. At least from what I've been seeing
I’m somewhat in the same boat, i currently have 3.91 gears making 720 whp m6. I’m been thinking of going back to 3.45 gears should I decide to go more power.
3.91s are great for a daily driver Bolton only car. Anything more and it's just too much gear
You kept spinning too, try a different tire maybe it would help
If you didn’t put a bigger cam it’s the stall that did it
Yup ur car is definitely running out of power before the 1/4 mile.
Just need more tire!
Slobalt SS didn’t stand a chance!!
Put a 26” slick on n that 28” off n watch the difference
601 Dirt Road Mafia 26" will just make it worse. He's already having to go into another gear before traps.
I was just about to comment the same. He was running a 26 then changed to 28 with the diff, should have left the 26 and see the real difference between gears.
If I kept the 26s i would've ran out of gear even faster
What was your set up on stock converter and stock gears ?
GPI SS1 vvt cam/ Boltons/ 26" Drag Radial
so I'm FBO as of now, i don't plan on camming it anytime soon just because it's still a daily, but im wondering if 3.91 gears would be a nice little mod for me. Only pushing 400 and I do hit the track once or twice a month. What would the steeper gearing do for me??
The 3.91s would utilize what hp you have in a more aggressive way. I think FBO and Gears would be fun but it depends what size tire you are gonna run and if you are stick or auto. Also the Gears really help the 5th gen get moving with all that weight
@@The1st60ft L99 so im an auto & running street tires, 285 nitro N555 G2's in the rear
@@ZL1Dnero I think Gears would be beneficial for ya
I have a question unrelated to the video. Are you still running the factory or a factory style starter? After i stroked mine to 415ci ut started having "hot start issues" i put a new starter, battery and ground wire from bell housing to frame and still have issues. Thinking of going to a gear reduction starter. Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks for kicking out all the 5th gen content.
Thanks bro! I am still running the factory style starter. It does give me these slow restarts while I'm street driving after it's gotten hot. I'm always praying its gonna be okay when I turn the key lmao but so far its started everytime. My buddy had the same issue with his 5th gen. I think its gotta be a combo of the starter always being hot and the long battery leads from the trunk. They sell starter heat blankets, I thought maybe that would help or a lithium ion lightweight battery. Way more punch
@@The1st60ft ill try that heat blanket before getting a different starter. Thanks for the suggestion
@@calebstokes5846 hell yeah brother
@@The1st60ft watching some of your old videos and you're straight up killing them with your reaction times!!!
If you havent swapped gears yet and you are close to Houston i will gladly trade my 3.27 diff for your 3.91. It will save me the hassle of swapping the gears i have.
I'm pretty far unfortunately. NJ
@@The1st60ft in your situation instead of going back to the 3.27 i would actually go from the ss1 to ss3 since the 3800 converter and gears are the supporting mods suggested for that cam. I got a 3200 and 3.91s going in along a ss2 mainly to delete the AFM since a simple delete vs performance is only a couple hundred difference but then i got the gearset cheap which led to me buying the converter.
@@johncrankshaft2886 exactly what I did! Ordered the SS3 vvt 🤘
Are you running any suspension modifications? Sounds like the car is still spinning off the line.
Still stock suspension. I've been told the stock stuff has some deflection. Much beefier than my old GTO but still not the greatest
@@The1st60ft I'm curious if traction would help. I had issues stock with traction. I'm putting my car together now with your same setup but I have BMR rear components. I wont throw away my stock gears yet just incase I have the same issues. BTW what tire size are you running?
@@Taylor11flattracker 28" tall DR. I'm hoping I can afford to do a video eventually about upgrading the suspension and losing some weight off the car too. I'm really digging BMR because their components are Chromoly
You lost significant top end mph as soon as you put the converter in it. Gears made the problem worse. Problem lies in the converter. its too loose for that heavy of a car. your losing E.T. on the hit due to torque multiplication from the steeper gears a loose converter and tire spin as a result. And Mph is suffering dramatically due to the loose conver. Lock up the converter at the top of second gear and carry it through....watch the et's fall and mph increase. More tire in the rear for better 60' I had 315/40/18's nitto D.R's on my gen v they fit nicely with factory reproduction 18x11 wheels
Thanks bro! Definitely gonna try locking that converter up. Hopefully we can hit up the track again asap. I looked into 29.5s with the 3.91s but $680 for a pair of DRs that fit 17s was pretty expensive compared to a free 3.27 rear my brother is letting me use from his G8
@@The1st60ft I have not tried to lock the converter on newer gen v stuff. But my gen 4 camaro made a huge improvement when I manually toggled the converter to lock up at the top of second.
It will more than likely set a code for you. But you should try it at least once to confirm the theory. Its a cheap and easy test. Simply supply supplemental ground to the PWM TCC wire.
Like I said it will throw a code but it will work for that ignition cycle. Then just clear the code and repeat. If it works you can have the code cleared from the PCM with tuning. Also... Try loading the converter hard on the hit. Don't flash it. It will make for a smoother transition and not shock the tires so hard. Just be sure to stage last so you don't melt down your transmission from excessive heat. My current car is a 15 1le with the new chevrolet performance 570/427. Still trying to figure out how to launch a 6 speed without leaving parts all over the track...lol Sure love the new motor though.
BTW you car kicks ass. Just growing pains. But I sure wouldn't get rid of the 3.91's Just fine tune with tire size and driving habits. Hope you still have at least 28' tall tires now.
@@The1st60ft One other thing. The 6l80e is going to be harder to manually tap into the tcc solenoid wiring. The darn module and solenoids are all one unit and not too accessible. Maybe a cheap scanner will allow you to cycle the tcc manually. Or just get creative...lol Sorry for the long post
@@LSX427 we tapped into the pin on a 4th gen camaro before for the converter lockup too. Worked real good. Lockup was immediate. Unfortunately the TCM is sealed on the 5th gens so no tapping into 😥. We can command a lockup through the tune just won't be as quick
I'm still baffled by this, its like something is slipping. I wonder if the stall is locking up properly. You made me buy a Circle D 3,800 for my 10r80 F150 as well. Curious to find out whats causing the loss. I run 7.00 at 103 in the truck. Good luck, nice video...
7.0 nice man. I was next to a single Cab 10r80 f150 at the track last time on 4 Drag Radials and a Whipple. Truck was badass.
Usually if the car goes slower I'll remove whatever mod i just did and see what happens. In this case I'm gonna pull the gears out and see how it is.
@@The1st60ft That's exactly what I got, i was the original Boosted Platinum. I finally blowed the motor and bought a 2020 regular cab. 2.9 Whipple, E85, 2 intercoolers, fans, full exhaust, 3.73s, 4x4, nitrous, coilovers. Still got problems but 10.7s, 10.3s on 70 shot. I'll find the video of the Platinum. Just key words 2018 f150 vs vette, its the blue one. My new one is white.
@@The1st60ft
#Ford1502018WhippleSupercharged
Not talking shit because you have an automatic but that is your problem with the 3.91 gears because they are used more towards the m6 Camaros. I would go with the 3.45 - 3.73 gears for the auto
You are absolutely right. I had to learn the hard way 🤣 3.45s are my plan for over the winter
@@The1st60ft if you were closer to me I would trade you my 3.45 for the 3.91 lol
You should try 3.73 gears
I am currently in the same situation you were in a when you’re clutches started slipping but I’m planning on going truetrac and 3.73 gears Cz I talked to a well experience ls tunner and he recommended 345 gears or max 373 gears
@@choppinss5552 yessir my tuner also suggested 3.45s. I'm gonna throw the 3.27s in because my brother has one ready to swap out that he's gonna let me use to get passes before the end of the season but ultimately I think I'll run 3.45s
Where did you buy the diff
A buddy had a wrecked V6 Camaro, my brother bought the Diff as an upgrade for his G8 but let me use it for a few passes
3.91 overkill and did u get the car tuned for the gears
Definitely bro. Yeah I did, just seemed like it wasn't in the powerband as much anymore
My 2014 SS has the factory gears and cam. Why am I being told to place a 2800 converter in it? Won't that just kill my daily?
A 2800 stall is very very streetable. Its not gonna hang like a 3600+
@@The1st60ft will it give me any benefits? I don't fully understand the stall topic.
@@joshuacataldo2612 a stall is a torque multiplier. So it's gonna hit harder when you punch it. A 2800 is great for a daily that's also gonna help get our big cars moving out of the hole. Its gonna feel like having gears without having the negatives of gears like lost mpg and higher rpms at same speed
@@The1st60ft thank you
I'm sure this is a stupid question but you did change the gear in the tune ?
Hey, yeah. With the way the car was setup plus the change in D.A. there wasn't much of a change. Recently we were able to take advantage of the 3.91s with a bigger cam/ ported heads. It's doing mid to high 1.4 60fts now. Check out the recent vids!
@@The1st60ft I have a 2010 myself but I deleted the vvt and I spray mine. But what did you do for 15 inch rear wheel I don't want to buy a kit I make my own junk ha ha always looking to learn..
@@mattcross428 its actually still a 17" wheel. You should post some spray vids!
28 tall tires is too big for your power
Any power adder ? And weight reduction?
No
What brand cam?
@@jmoye16 GPI SS1
So it’s best to stick with the stock gears ? Correct
With an SS1 cam yes
@@The1st60ft gotcha thanks
So best gears for cammed auto 5th gen camaro are 327 gears?
For a smaller SS1 cam yes definitely
Bump
Are you spinning the engine above 7k?
With this cam no. Powerband drops off after 6500rpm
Damn brother sorry to hear the results...the 3.91s treat me good but i do highway pulls and backroad rebel shit lmao
🤣 hopefully we'll have it running good again soon. Gonna swap the 3.27s back in thanks to my brother letting me borrow his rear from his G8
@@The1st60ft have you considered throwing the standard gears 3.45’s???
@@noahsimmons4107 yessir. I think over the winter I'll do 3.45s. Just wanna get some passes in before the end of the season
@@The1st60ft I think you need more cam with that big stall converter
I do not agree I think your stall is too high you could gain low end power with a 3200 stall over a 3800 stall
the car need more traction
What rpm are you launching at
Foot brake to 2500rpm
Stock axles?
This is not what I was wanting to see! I was contemplating stepping up to 3.91 from the 3.45's in the G8. Sorry, you're going backward.
We're gonna get it fixed quick!
Don't lock the converter on a bolt on car.really guys
Higher gears always make your car slower my buddies do that with their Mustangs and go from getting smoked by a car or two to three or four
Dude stop spreading false info. Lower gears dont ALWAYS make your car slower it depends on the engine and trans and the setup you are running. If you select the wrong gear for your application it can make you slower. Dont spread misinformation. There are situations where a gear change can drop half a second et. An example is the 96-98 mustang cobra with the 4v 4.6. They rev to 7k stock and are gutless down low. With the long geared 5 speed they have going from stock 3.27 to a 456 gear can literally drop half a second et and pick up couple mph on the big end as well. The car feels like a different beast. You cant throw 456 in every car and expect the same results like I said it depends on your engine and trans as well as your setup. There are MANY cases where going with a lower rear gear (higher numerically) will result in faster times at the track and just make the car pull harder period. Dont make blanket statements when you dont understand what you're talking about.
Rear tires are to big buddy🔥🔥🔥👌🏾‼️
First 5th gen I've seen run slower with 3.91s
In your experience, what kind of combo were these other 3.91 geared camaros running? 6l80/big stall? Just curious why I didn't pick anything up. Too much gear/stall for the smaller cam?
Guys I run with have stalls 3800 and up with their 6l80s. Shifts points are more crucial with more gear. I don't know of anyone running 10s without them SBE L99 NA.
@@The1st60ft not sure if you realize even though you put it on your own video that the da was like 1500 ft higher with the 3.91 vs vs the runs with stock gearing. You only lost a mph or two that is right in line with what youd be losing going up 1500 dt da. Youd be better off going with a more aggressive heads cam intake package with springs and pull to 7k+ that I beleive would make the 3.91 work alot better. The da is prob responsible for you going slower I think more power would help you get off the line better with em. It is concerning that you didnt pick up on the 60 though. The 391 clearly isnt the best gear for your setup but I dont really think you went slower because of em likely didnt change much outside of the da difference.
Interesting comment, I just finished my build, 2010 2SS, 680 rwhp, 1le suspension package, Eaton Tru track with 391’s new clutch, short shifter. I’m curious to see what it can pull, for the 200 miles I’ve put on it, scary fast, love the 391 gears thus far.
Too much converter IMO
You are right, it's too much converter for the size of the cam. We just threw in an SS3 cam if you wanna check that out
@@The1st60ft ok i will check that cam out. Im in the process of bulding an ss sedan. We had installed a livernois l92 high lift cam and a circle d 255mm 3200 stall and its dam quick but we are going to install the 3.90s now and see how that goes
@@javilsx363 nice post vids!
@@The1st60ft sure will
You can also check out his channel rubio ssv