I wholeheartedly agree with you on points one and two! Once I reached the intermediate level in Levantine Arabic, it became quite apparent to me that this learning journey is a marathon and not a sprint. And, if you try to learn at a sprinting pace all the time, you'll burn out and possibly give up. But, regarding, point #3, I think that goes back to your first point about there being no one-size-fits-all method for every person learning every language. Some languages have very little comprehensible input for beginners, and many people like me find the motivation to keep studying and working alone through input and other methods of study from meaningful interactions in their target language in real life, even if it's just a short conversation with an employee in a restaurant or being able to connect with someone who doesn't speak English and put a smile on their face. I also think it's important to work on pronunciation early on before you develop bad habits (because you'll still be pronouncing words in your head), which is not something that you can completely absorb from content. You actually have to develop literal muscle memory in your mouth and throat to produce new sounds in languages like Arabic. I totally admire this input-only-at-the-beginning approach and can see the immense benefits, but I've discovered that I actually don't like watching TV that much, lol, so I would've given up on learning Arabic a long time ago if I hadn't had a real-life connection to the language (for me, it's mostly to help Syrian refugees in my city). Thank you for this video series and the pdf doc summing up the Refold method! I'm sure I will learn a lot from you! 😊
I agree! I prefer this way of framing it ("don't speak") since there's actually a lot of nuance to the topic, but I think that sums it up. "Output" for the sake of improving is the main thing you want to avoid. That means actually trying to generate ideas and thoughts in the language. However, practicing pronunciation, saying individual words or even set phrases is something totally different. And, if you have access to natives, it can be super motivational! Lots of people get fuel from those interactions and, like you said, it can make someone's day. I actually would like to make a video about that at some point. Talking a bit about what I think of as the "Xiaoma" method. He learns languages to connect with people and that's a great approach, but with a different end goal (which is totally fine to have, btw). What you're doing sounds like a great mix of human connection and "understanding focused" learning. Another thing you could try, which might help a lot with working with refugees, is crosstalk! If they feel comfortable speaking to you in Arabic, even though you're going to respond in English, it can make communication a lot easier! But most people don't even know it's an option. Thanks for your great comment! Keep up the great work :) - Ben
@@Refold Thanks for your response! Few TH-camrs actually reply to most comments on their videos. How refreshing! I actually did a lot of "output for the sake of improving" with my tutor from early on, but it was fun for me. I'm an extrovert!! 😅I loved playing with the language and trying to make my own sentences with new words and sentence constructions and getting her feedback. She would always tell me (in Arabic) if what I said sounded natural or weird. There's also a lot you can learn from the question "How do you say ... in Arabic?"So much of the vocab that I learned in the beginning has a story attached to it, like me trying to tell my teacher that I went to the beach or that I'm sore from teaching exercise classes. . . Lol. However, as a result, my speaking skills are stronger than my listening comprehension (but I'm working on it!). I will get there, in the end, I believe!
It’s amazing how many teachers and language ‘experts’ try to force learners to output so early. It’s very stressful (especially for introverts) and it nearly made me drop all languages. It’s very hard to persuade people (I’ve tried, often failed), that postponing output is actually a very good technique, not a cop out.
Yes! Especially in high schools when people are generally more self-conscious and nervous about making mistakes. But, I try not to blame anyone since postponing output isn't the most logical thing. - Ben
It's funny how common of a practice it is to force output 5 minutes into learning a 2nd language when we spend the first 1-2 years of our life doing nothing but listening, before even saying a single word! It's like people completely lack self-awareness of how they learned their 1st language, or worse they use some mental gymnastics explaining why it's different when you are an adult. The other problem is that language learning is just incompatible with the typical classroom environment, since they need to asses your performance along the way (i.e. output) and shoehorn in all aspects of the language within a small semester long period.
Great video Ben. I have been a Spanish Learner for a year now following Refolds ways and I am having fun. I am understanding. a lot and dedicate an hour a day. It is getting easier as time goes on to add more time since I can understand more.
I’m trying to output Korean again on italki. The small beginner group lesson was good because my fellow beginners had the same struggles but just speaking Korean in itself was fun. The free talk with a native (they didn’t sign up for more classes 😂) was so frustrating. It helped me see what I need to focus on - more active vocabulary. Although I am probably rusty, it got me thinking about Japanese. I had SO many failed conversations to get to the intermediate level I finally reached. I don’t know if I want to do that again.
I'm having a similar experience with Korean. I understand a lot or sometimes everything when I do cross-talk, but when I try to speak my brain feels like it's melting ESPECIALLY when putting together long sentences. In your experience did you struggle more outputting Japanese or Korean? and how did it compare to outputting European languages?
@@Kyle-uo5bg it’s been a while since I spoke German. After a few years of immersion, I felt like I spoke German very fluently albeit with a lot of mistakes I wasn’t aware of. It felt pretty easy. I think I’m struggling more with Korean than Japanese due to not taking formal classes in Korean but it’s still catching up slowly. I just don’t know how much patience I have. I spoke Japanese every day I was in Japan even if it wasn’t a lot I always had to speak at least some.
@@paulwalther5237 Thanks for the reply! I understand the frustration with Korean. I recently started doing cross-talk and texting Korean natives I met on language exchange websites and I feel it has re-ignited my passion for improving. However, it has also made me suddenly want to output as much as possible which has been rough. I tend to stick to only using short sentences in Korean and then expressing anything complicated in English. I'm lucky that most language exchange partners are fairly good at English and are fine with talking often. Have you tried language exchange with Korean yet?
I miss the good old days before SRS when the only way to learn was to immerse and maybe supplement that with a grammar book or a class or two 😂. Now I’m changing my rote memory study routine or flash cards every week trying to find the way that works for me. For years.
Would you consider SRS a necessary element in your daily study routine to reach fluency? I have beeh learning Japanese for about two years and the only SRS I have been doing is through WaniKani and its counterpart Kamesame which focuses on recollection of Japanese words given the English equivalent of it. Now that I have pretty much burned all of the available words there I am wondering whether I start with something like Anki. SRS is not something I enjoy doing and I would much rather spend the extra hour or two a day doing more immersion, especially now that I can understand most of what I listen/read to. I consider myself pretty good at languages im general as I have reached native level in English to the point where natives are often surprised to learn I wasn't born in Australia. At the same time I understand Japanese vocabulary would be extremely different and much more difficult to master.
I'm afraid I don't agree with point 3 at all. I don't follow the logic of delaying speaking unless you are not interested in learning to speak? If you delay speaking by a year say, then at the end of the year you still won't be able to speak. To speak you must practise speaking. On its own, no amount of input will enable you to speak. You will end up taking much longer to get to a decent level. Speaking is hard so why waste time in this way?
In our experience working with hundreds of language learners, speaking is actually a skill based heavily on understanding and instinct. Yes, to get *good* at speaking, you need to practice, but we've never seen speaking practice actually help unless the learner already can understand most things they hear and especially what they themselves are saying. Plus, being able to have a conversation requires you to be able to understand your conversation partner, which "speaking first" doesn't help with. In our experience, people with ~1000 hours of good immersion time in a "similar" language only need ~50 hours of speaking practice to get "pretty darn good" and only around ~150-200 to bring their speaking level to their understanding level. But people who engage in speaking early and often hit a plateau very early on and struggle to improve even after hundreds of hours of speaking practice. In this video by our friend, Lamont, he talks about his experience with a "very speaking heavy" approach for Swedish: th-cam.com/video/R6jml0BeAvo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xyLdiCAgqMy1O_hF&t=974 He does a great job at explaining things, so I recommend you check it out if you have time! I hope this helps explain our perspective better. - Ben
At 7:20 minutes I think you made a mistake, you said input that is Reading and writing, I expect you meant reading and listening?
Oh, whoops! You're right. I meant to say reading and listening. Thanks for noticing!
- Ben
I wholeheartedly agree with you on points one and two! Once I reached the intermediate level in Levantine Arabic, it became quite apparent to me that this learning journey is a marathon and not a sprint. And, if you try to learn at a sprinting pace all the time, you'll burn out and possibly give up. But, regarding, point #3, I think that goes back to your first point about there being no one-size-fits-all method for every person learning every language. Some languages have very little comprehensible input for beginners, and many people like me find the motivation to keep studying and working alone through input and other methods of study from meaningful interactions in their target language in real life, even if it's just a short conversation with an employee in a restaurant or being able to connect with someone who doesn't speak English and put a smile on their face. I also think it's important to work on pronunciation early on before you develop bad habits (because you'll still be pronouncing words in your head), which is not something that you can completely absorb from content. You actually have to develop literal muscle memory in your mouth and throat to produce new sounds in languages like Arabic.
I totally admire this input-only-at-the-beginning approach and can see the immense benefits, but I've discovered that I actually don't like watching TV that much, lol, so I would've given up on learning Arabic a long time ago if I hadn't had a real-life connection to the language (for me, it's mostly to help Syrian refugees in my city). Thank you for this video series and the pdf doc summing up the Refold method! I'm sure I will learn a lot from you! 😊
I agree! I prefer this way of framing it ("don't speak") since there's actually a lot of nuance to the topic, but I think that sums it up.
"Output" for the sake of improving is the main thing you want to avoid. That means actually trying to generate ideas and thoughts in the language. However, practicing pronunciation, saying individual words or even set phrases is something totally different. And, if you have access to natives, it can be super motivational! Lots of people get fuel from those interactions and, like you said, it can make someone's day.
I actually would like to make a video about that at some point. Talking a bit about what I think of as the "Xiaoma" method. He learns languages to connect with people and that's a great approach, but with a different end goal (which is totally fine to have, btw). What you're doing sounds like a great mix of human connection and "understanding focused" learning.
Another thing you could try, which might help a lot with working with refugees, is crosstalk! If they feel comfortable speaking to you in Arabic, even though you're going to respond in English, it can make communication a lot easier! But most people don't even know it's an option.
Thanks for your great comment! Keep up the great work :)
- Ben
@@Refold Thanks for your response! Few TH-camrs actually reply to most comments on their videos. How refreshing!
I actually did a lot of "output for the sake of improving" with my tutor from early on, but it was fun for me. I'm an extrovert!! 😅I loved playing with the language and trying to make my own sentences with new words and sentence constructions and getting her feedback. She would always tell me (in Arabic) if what I said sounded natural or weird. There's also a lot you can learn from the question "How do you say ... in Arabic?"So much of the vocab that I learned in the beginning has a story attached to it, like me trying to tell my teacher that I went to the beach or that I'm sore from teaching exercise classes. . . Lol. However, as a result, my speaking skills are stronger than my listening comprehension (but I'm working on it!). I will get there, in the end, I believe!
Great video. Many important truths in here. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing❤
It’s amazing how many teachers and language ‘experts’ try to force learners to output so early. It’s very stressful (especially for introverts) and it nearly made me drop all languages. It’s very hard to persuade people (I’ve tried, often failed), that postponing output is actually a very good technique, not a cop out.
Yes! Especially in high schools when people are generally more self-conscious and nervous about making mistakes. But, I try not to blame anyone since postponing output isn't the most logical thing.
- Ben
It's funny how common of a practice it is to force output 5 minutes into learning a 2nd language when we spend the first 1-2 years of our life doing nothing but listening, before even saying a single word! It's like people completely lack self-awareness of how they learned their 1st language, or worse they use some mental gymnastics explaining why it's different when you are an adult. The other problem is that language learning is just incompatible with the typical classroom environment, since they need to asses your performance along the way (i.e. output) and shoehorn in all aspects of the language within a small semester long period.
Muchas gracias por los consejos. Muy valiosos y reveladores
Great video Ben. I have been a Spanish Learner for a year now following Refolds ways and I am having fun. I am understanding. a lot and dedicate an hour a day. It is getting easier as time goes on to add more time since I can understand more.
I love all of the (somewhat) subtle roasts in this video 😂
Thank you. I needed to hear this again.
I’m trying to output Korean again on italki. The small beginner group lesson was good because my fellow beginners had the same struggles but just speaking Korean in itself was fun. The free talk with a native (they didn’t sign up for more classes 😂) was so frustrating. It helped me see what I need to focus on - more active vocabulary.
Although I am probably rusty, it got me thinking about Japanese. I had SO many failed conversations to get to the intermediate level I finally reached. I don’t know if I want to do that again.
I'm having a similar experience with Korean. I understand a lot or sometimes everything when I do cross-talk, but when I try to speak my brain feels like it's melting ESPECIALLY when putting together long sentences. In your experience did you struggle more outputting Japanese or Korean? and how did it compare to outputting European languages?
@@Kyle-uo5bg it’s been a while since I spoke German. After a few years of immersion, I felt like I spoke German very fluently albeit with a lot of mistakes I wasn’t aware of. It felt pretty easy. I think I’m struggling more with Korean than Japanese due to not taking formal classes in Korean but it’s still catching up slowly. I just don’t know how much patience I have. I spoke Japanese every day I was in Japan even if it wasn’t a lot I always had to speak at least some.
@@paulwalther5237 Thanks for the reply!
I understand the frustration with Korean. I recently started doing cross-talk and texting Korean natives I met on language exchange websites and I feel it has re-ignited my passion for improving. However, it has also made me suddenly want to output as much as possible which has been rough. I tend to stick to only using short sentences in Korean and then expressing anything complicated in English. I'm lucky that most language exchange partners are fairly good at English and are fine with talking often. Have you tried language exchange with Korean yet?
I don't speak right away because well, I'm an introvert. So I guess this helps me out in a good way 😅
I miss the good old days before SRS when the only way to learn was to immerse and maybe supplement that with a grammar book or a class or two 😂. Now I’m changing my rote memory study routine or flash cards every week trying to find the way that works for me. For years.
Just drop the SRS and immerse. That’s what I did.
@@Retogand replace with what
@@tordmunk nothing, just immerse. You don’t need an SRS to learn words.
@@Retog If my latest adjustment to my flash card routine fails I think I will try something drastic. Maybe writing in the language daily.
@@paulwalther5237 just stop worrying about the SRS. The only issue is not enough input
The dirty little secret is that there are no shortcuts. It's all about time in the language.
Would you consider SRS a necessary element in your daily study routine to reach fluency?
I have beeh learning Japanese for about two years and the only SRS I have been doing is through WaniKani and its counterpart Kamesame which focuses on recollection of Japanese words given the English equivalent of it.
Now that I have pretty much burned all of the available words there I am wondering whether I start with something like Anki. SRS is not something I enjoy doing and I would much rather spend the extra hour or two a day doing more immersion, especially now that I can understand most of what I listen/read to.
I consider myself pretty good at languages im general as I have reached native level in English to the point where natives are often surprised to learn I wasn't born in Australia. At the same time I understand Japanese vocabulary would be extremely different and much more difficult to master.
Do you have a good video explaining Crosstalk?
Yes! Here you go: th-cam.com/video/0KsLxyYnZAk/w-d-xo.html
- Ben
Right on thank you!@@Refold
So, if one has a tutor how does this apply? Should you ask your tutor to talk only? 🤔
I'm afraid I don't agree with point 3 at all. I don't follow the logic of delaying speaking unless you are not interested in learning to speak? If you delay speaking by a year say, then at the end of the year you still won't be able to speak. To speak you must practise speaking. On its own, no amount of input will enable you to speak. You will end up taking much longer to get to a decent level. Speaking is hard so why waste time in this way?
In our experience working with hundreds of language learners, speaking is actually a skill based heavily on understanding and instinct. Yes, to get *good* at speaking, you need to practice, but we've never seen speaking practice actually help unless the learner already can understand most things they hear and especially what they themselves are saying. Plus, being able to have a conversation requires you to be able to understand your conversation partner, which "speaking first" doesn't help with. In our experience, people with ~1000 hours of good immersion time in a "similar" language only need ~50 hours of speaking practice to get "pretty darn good" and only around ~150-200 to bring their speaking level to their understanding level.
But people who engage in speaking early and often hit a plateau very early on and struggle to improve even after hundreds of hours of speaking practice.
In this video by our friend, Lamont, he talks about his experience with a "very speaking heavy" approach for Swedish: th-cam.com/video/R6jml0BeAvo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xyLdiCAgqMy1O_hF&t=974
He does a great job at explaining things, so I recommend you check it out if you have time!
I hope this helps explain our perspective better.
- Ben
@@Refold “When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new.” - The Dalai Lama