I have an old Klipch KSW300 15" sub up front and an equally old BIC 8" sub right behind my listening position in the near field, it's phenomenal, and cost nothing. Love waking up to your videos every day, thanks Paul
I have two nice subs and blending your equipment is part of the FUN .... all of my equipment doesn't seem like they'd work together, but I like it .... 4 tube amps - 1 AB amp - 1 pre-amp - 2 wall mount speakers - 2 open baffle floor stand speakers - 2 subs --->> all in a trailer roughly 7 ft long and 6 ft wide! ......... YES, I'm having a great time....
Paul's got it right ! Thats exactly where I'd place that sub!! But PLEASE don't go ruining things by adding a second REL ... unless you either stack it or place it immediately to the side of the first one..!
Yea all frequencies travel at different wavelengths and separating two subwoofers will cause a mess of cancellation and reinforcement nodes. This is also something inevitable when placing vocal speakers side by side for a beautiful stereo effect but thank goodness the vocals are not affected by this issues as much as bass frequencies.
I have 2x10" subs in each of my front towers, and an 18" behind my couch. this works amazingly. It took me a bit of experimentation to find the right spot for the big one.
It's cancellation is what you want a sub at the back of the room, it has to be out of phase with the main speakers and on a frequency time delay circuit, Your preventing comb filtering in the lower frequencies in turn increases lower frequencies and bass response.
Blending two subs is pretty easy if you keep the placement simple. stereo sub imaging with the listeners on axis, or in mono where subs are placed directly in front and/or behind the listener (obviously matched timing is important.) However, you'll encounter various issues going down the asymmetrical sub route. Even stereo sub placement has issues like comb filtering once you venture off axis. If you have a broad listening area, keeping the sub mono, down front, close to the center is going to make things easy for you.
I think that the question came from Canada… not France 😜… thanks! I began to test my sub in different place in the room… the difference, even, right and left, is unbelievable!… but… I think I will stick with one sub for now…
Paul, that’s really hard to support. Let’s say 2 subs will even low frequency waves in a room. Also, if you place one of the subs next to your couch to feel it with your body, because of the subs response latency the other sub in couple of feet from you would produce something off phase. So my guess would be to place a sub with low latency next to couch and with higher look latency away and those would be different models. Assuming both subs are calibrated the same, does that make sense?
Hey Paul, how is that REL subwoofer hooked up? I see no apparent wires trailing to it, and it doesn't even seem to be plugged into any of the adjacent mains receptacles.
I know your the hi fi guy Paul, bass hobby is slightly different then hi fi craft. I noticed the hi fi craft often treats bass sterile in relation to the mid and high...These however are waves you feel more then hear, an epic experience in high fidelity should include powerful waves of sound....The Cello should lift you on an actual cloud of sound
Why only one sub Paul? I thought you were a two sub guy. I see the FR-30s sensitivity at 88db. Surprised they aren't into the 90+ range. Close I guess... I stick with two REL subs each one hooked to each channel of my amp. I like the idea of behind the listening position, but I don't have the extra room.
I am sure Paul has done a video where he placed the sub in the main seating area and then walked around the room to find where it was performing the best and then placed it there, in hopes of finding the optimal place in the room for it....? That room gain game right?
Why not just EQ the bass optimally for the listening position on your full range stereo speakers and save a couple thousand dollars on subs for those speakers that are costly already?! You paid for them to dig deep into the 20-40 Hz range, and then you let it go..🤔 That’s what I do. I’m not that picky, or “that” rich ! 👨🏻
When the room is the problem (which it is in this case) then no amount of EQ on the main speaker is going to fill in the missing bass. What's required is either another woofer placed somewhere else in the room where the suckout isn't happening or to move the main speakers to a place where the suckout isn't happening. The former works and gives us what we want while the latter does not because moving the main speakers means we lose their perfect placement benefits.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio yes I understand the theory; just fortunate to not be setup in a listening room that’s causing the nodes and anti-nodes of the low frequency standing waves to be juxtaposed in such a way that causes such extreme attenuation at my listening position. It’s nice not to have boundary issues and the ability to pick up the bass the necessary amount without other potential system problems.👨🏻
I puzzle at why so many Americans are preoccupied with sub-woofers. If Hi Fi is about reproducing as accurately as possible real music and, aside from a pipe organ, no music is produced at sub frequencies (and no human has ever been able to hear those frequencies anyway) I can't see the value of sub-woofers, regardless of where you place them. I know some may say it's to do with harmonics but that doesn't make any sense to me either. I think it's like putting a turbo charger on a lawn mower. It wouldn't make your lawn look any better. If I'm wrong I invite comments on how, preferably factual, not just subject rhetoric.
Your theory used to be the first a read when I started in the HiFi hobby. Now I have more experience and I have two subs. It's not just about frequency response but phase alignment and evenness. I can't have have a even frequency response and good reverberation times in my rooms with tower speakers, but I can achieve a better result with shelf-speakers and subs. By the way, I'm not Usonian nor American.
America - what a case! it's a confluence of trends & conditions. home theater, car stereo dB contests, rise of synthesized very low freq. content in pop music. add the fact we tend to have more large homes w/ large rooms on large lots, disposable income & our consumer mkts are so large that even a niche can emerge & expand. personally (having the luxury of having been in the spkr biz last century), I could chase the edges of performance, determining that a system extending cleanly into higher freq. was even more enjoyable (+ less listening fatigue) when balanced by clean extension to lower freq. confirmation bias / bad hearing / psycho-acoustic weirdness ... who cares? works for me (w/ stereo subs, one twin 8s, the other a 6th order bandpass 12). yes, it takes effort to integrate & tune, but that's free labor on my part & half the fun. as to turbocharged lawn mowers, that too is a thing 'round here... enables one to get the farm mowed quickly... so you can go race 'em... or get back to the subs. cheers!
"preferably factual" ? Like so much in my experience with audio, hearing is believing. So, I get the subs. I set them up for best bass in the room--PS Audio's disc with the stand up bass being played up and down the scale is great to find the best subwoofer placement and listening position: to get the best balance of db across the spectrum. Then I position my Polk R500's--not so low-frequency rated speakers--for best imaging and clarity. Then I tweak as needed. I hear depth and a fuller, richer sound. There is more body to the music: Bill Frisell's version of "Wagon Wheels" from Valentine is great for this because it starts with Thomas Morgan's acoustic bass and when the guitar and drum tracks enter they just open up the soundstage--it's a pretty amazing recording. Okay, so I invite my daughter to have a listen with the subs turned off. Then we play the same cut with the subs on. She nods her head and says it is more exciting and spacious with the subs on. And I agree.
Being able to hear a 10hz tone is not the same as a note or chord with 10hz resonance. You can still tell the difference in power and depth of the sound between say a ported sub that can't produce anything effectively below 24hz and a 4th order bandpass sub tuned to 30hz (bad example but you get the point, imagine above 20hz they have the same response). The "bass" (28-84hz for example) is what gives a sense of weight and fullness to speakers, but the genuine sub bass.. I think depth is the best word. True there isn't music there, but those frequencies are what triggers neuron activation, makes your adrenaline spike. That's why thunder is scary, if you can't notice it, you at least see how dogs can react. It's the sheer amount of air moving, it sounds threatening and dangerous, even more than just the loudness of sounds. Crying babies and nails on a chalkboard can be loud, but there's no sense of power behind those sounds Idk if you said too much I feel is wrong, but maybe now you don't have to puzzle. Have you seen mad max fury road? Listen to the sound track on something that puts out deep bass, you'll at least be able to tell what it does, even if you don't find it valuable yourself
I would venture to say that most of us do not listen to main speakers that go anywhere near as low as your speakers and rely on sub's exclusively for that information. How does all this relate to your recommendation of stereo sub's that have near proximity requirements to main speakers for (musical cues) you refer to them as. I call it subwoofer imaging. High level subwoofer inputs also were not mentioned. Because of the Predator's job being only the lowest bass, I understand the placement options increasing as no real imaging is needed from that subwoofer. What is the signal? a summed mono signal through an RCA cable or balanced? Is this a case of where low level input is ok or is this wired with 25 feet of speaker cables?
You put the sub where you're going to be listening, then you walk around the room and listen for the response that sounds best for you, and that's where you put the subwoofer, Right where you're standing. That's the fastest and most accurate way to do it.
I have an old Klipch KSW300 15" sub up front and an equally old BIC 8" sub right behind my listening position in the near field, it's phenomenal, and cost nothing. Love waking up to your videos every day, thanks Paul
I have two nice subs and blending your equipment is part of the FUN
.... all of my equipment doesn't seem like they'd work together, but I like it
.... 4 tube amps - 1 AB amp - 1 pre-amp - 2 wall mount speakers - 2 open baffle floor stand speakers - 2 subs --->> all in a trailer roughly 7 ft long and 6 ft wide!
......... YES, I'm having a great time....
Use the room simulation in REW and see how the respons in the room changes as you add or move the subwoofer(s). 👍
Looking 👀 forward to visiting…someday 🤷♂️💚💚💚 😊
Paul's got it right ! Thats exactly where I'd place that sub!! But PLEASE don't go ruining things by adding a second REL ... unless you either stack it or place it immediately to the side of the first one..!
Yea all frequencies travel at different wavelengths and separating two subwoofers will cause a mess of cancellation and reinforcement nodes.
This is also something inevitable when placing vocal speakers side by side for a beautiful stereo effect but thank goodness the vocals are not affected by this issues as much as bass frequencies.
I have 2x10" subs in each of my front towers, and an 18" behind my couch. this works amazingly. It took me a bit of experimentation to find the right spot for the big one.
It's cancellation is what you want a sub at the back of the room, it has to be out of phase with the main speakers and on a frequency time delay circuit,
Your preventing comb filtering in the lower frequencies in turn increases lower frequencies and bass response.
Blending two subs is pretty easy if you keep the placement simple. stereo sub imaging with the listeners on axis, or in mono where subs are placed directly in front and/or behind the listener (obviously matched timing is important.)
However, you'll encounter various issues going down the asymmetrical sub route. Even stereo sub placement has issues like comb filtering once you venture off axis. If you have a broad listening area, keeping the sub mono, down front, close to the center is going to make things easy for you.
I think that the question came from Canada… not France 😜… thanks! I began to test my sub in different place in the room… the difference, even, right and left, is unbelievable!… but… I think I will stick with one sub for now…
Paul, that’s really hard to support. Let’s say 2 subs will even low frequency waves in a room. Also, if you place one of the subs next to your couch to feel it with your body, because of the subs response latency the other sub in couple of feet from you would produce something off phase. So my guess would be to place a sub with low latency next to couch and with higher look latency away and those would be different models. Assuming both subs are calibrated the same, does that make sense?
Thank you for answering me this question: in this case where the subwoofer is placed at the back, should the phase be adjusted to 180°?
Like👍
Hey Paul, how is that REL subwoofer hooked up? I see no apparent wires trailing to it, and it doesn't even seem to be plugged into any of the adjacent mains receptacles.
I know your the hi fi guy Paul, bass hobby is slightly different then hi fi craft. I noticed the hi fi craft often treats bass sterile in relation to the mid and high...These however are waves you feel more then hear, an epic experience in high fidelity should include powerful waves of sound....The Cello should lift you on an actual cloud of sound
I put my mono subwoofer in left front..but now I used to play stereo subwoofer also at the left side..
Why only one sub Paul? I thought you were a two sub guy. I see the FR-30s sensitivity at 88db. Surprised they aren't into the 90+ range. Close I guess...
I stick with two REL subs each one hooked to each channel of my amp. I like the idea of behind the listening position, but I don't have the extra room.
I am sure Paul has done a video where he placed the sub in the main seating area and then walked around the room to find where it was performing the best and then placed it there, in hopes of finding the optimal place in the room for it....? That room gain game right?
WHAT..!! A pair of single 12 inch full range woofer’s is not good enough for you..🤔😳 OH, the old days of audio.❤️❤️🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵👍🤗
Ever notice “Everyone” is a expert at spending “Your Money” 🤔😳🙄😀
I am wondering when u make amps now speskers why not make your own subs too
Why not just EQ the bass optimally for the listening position on your full range stereo speakers and save a couple thousand dollars on subs for those speakers that are costly already?!
You paid for them to dig deep into the 20-40 Hz range, and then you let it go..🤔
That’s what I do.
I’m not that picky,
or “that” rich ! 👨🏻
When the room is the problem (which it is in this case) then no amount of EQ on the main speaker is going to fill in the missing bass. What's required is either another woofer placed somewhere else in the room where the suckout isn't happening or to move the main speakers to a place where the suckout isn't happening. The former works and gives us what we want while the latter does not because moving the main speakers means we lose their perfect placement benefits.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio yes I understand the theory; just fortunate to not be setup in a listening room that’s causing the nodes and anti-nodes of the low frequency standing waves to be juxtaposed in such a way that causes such extreme attenuation at my listening position. It’s nice not to have boundary issues and the ability to pick up the bass the necessary amount without other potential system problems.👨🏻
I puzzle at why so many Americans are preoccupied with sub-woofers.
If Hi Fi is about reproducing as accurately as possible real music and, aside from a pipe organ, no music is produced at sub frequencies (and no human has ever been able to hear those frequencies anyway) I can't see the value of sub-woofers, regardless of where you place them.
I know some may say it's to do with harmonics but that doesn't make any sense to me either. I think it's like putting a turbo charger on a lawn mower. It wouldn't make your lawn look any better.
If I'm wrong I invite comments on how, preferably factual, not just subject rhetoric.
Totally agree, here in the UK subs are not that common in high end music setups, more so for cinema, oddly
Your theory used to be the first a read when I started in the HiFi hobby. Now I have more experience and I have two subs. It's not just about frequency response but phase alignment and evenness. I can't have have a even frequency response and good reverberation times in my rooms with tower speakers, but I can achieve a better result with shelf-speakers and subs. By the way, I'm not Usonian nor American.
America - what a case!
it's a confluence of trends & conditions. home theater, car stereo dB contests, rise of synthesized very low freq. content in pop music. add the fact we tend to have more large homes w/ large rooms on large lots, disposable income & our consumer mkts are so large that even a niche can emerge & expand.
personally (having the luxury of having been in the spkr biz last century), I could chase the edges of performance, determining that a system extending cleanly into higher freq. was even more enjoyable (+ less listening fatigue) when balanced by clean extension to lower freq. confirmation bias / bad hearing / psycho-acoustic weirdness ... who cares? works for me (w/ stereo subs, one twin 8s, the other a 6th order bandpass 12). yes, it takes effort to integrate & tune, but that's free labor on my part & half the fun.
as to turbocharged lawn mowers, that too is a thing 'round here... enables one to get the farm mowed quickly... so you can go race 'em... or get back to the subs. cheers!
"preferably factual" ? Like so much in my experience with audio, hearing is believing.
So, I get the subs. I set them up for best bass in the room--PS Audio's disc with the stand up bass being played up and down the scale is great to find the best subwoofer placement and listening position: to get the best balance of db across the spectrum. Then I position my Polk R500's--not so low-frequency rated speakers--for best imaging and clarity. Then I tweak as needed. I hear depth and a fuller, richer sound. There is more body to the music: Bill Frisell's version of "Wagon Wheels" from Valentine is great for this because it starts with Thomas Morgan's acoustic bass and when the guitar and drum tracks enter they just open up the soundstage--it's a pretty amazing recording. Okay, so I invite my daughter to have a listen with the subs turned off. Then we play the same cut with the subs on. She nods her head and says it is more exciting and spacious with the subs on. And I agree.
Being able to hear a 10hz tone is not the same as a note or chord with 10hz resonance. You can still tell the difference in power and depth of the sound between say a ported sub that can't produce anything effectively below 24hz and a 4th order bandpass sub tuned to 30hz (bad example but you get the point, imagine above 20hz they have the same response). The "bass" (28-84hz for example) is what gives a sense of weight and fullness to speakers, but the genuine sub bass.. I think depth is the best word. True there isn't music there, but those frequencies are what triggers neuron activation, makes your adrenaline spike. That's why thunder is scary, if you can't notice it, you at least see how dogs can react. It's the sheer amount of air moving, it sounds threatening and dangerous, even more than just the loudness of sounds. Crying babies and nails on a chalkboard can be loud, but there's no sense of power behind those sounds
Idk if you said too much I feel is wrong, but maybe now you don't have to puzzle. Have you seen mad max fury road? Listen to the sound track on something that puts out deep bass, you'll at least be able to tell what it does, even if you don't find it valuable yourself
I would venture to say that most of us do not listen to main speakers that go anywhere near as low as your speakers and rely on sub's exclusively for that information. How does all this relate to your recommendation of stereo sub's that have near proximity requirements to main speakers for (musical cues) you refer to them as. I call it subwoofer imaging. High level subwoofer inputs also were not mentioned. Because of the Predator's job being only the lowest bass, I understand the placement options increasing as no real imaging is needed from that subwoofer. What is the signal? a summed mono signal through an RCA cable or balanced? Is this a case of where low level input is ok or is this wired with 25 feet of speaker cables?
You put the sub where you're going to be listening, then you walk around the room and listen for the response that sounds best for you, and that's where you put the subwoofer, Right where you're standing. That's the fastest and most accurate way to do it.