Warning about those numbers cause there could be a lot of distortion, wow and flutter, much higher sensitivity, very high resistance, and of course way too loud in decibel ratings. In other words extraordinarily high maintenance costing you way too much money.
If your rig gives you goosebumps and makes your eyes leak...who cares how it measures. Teleport machines cannot be measured. If you have one you know. Go Mikey, keep it going.
Danny isn't forcing anybody to mod their speakers. It was a customer who sent in his Maggies. The customer wasn't happy and wanted better. Who are we, or you, to say the customer is wrong? Danny isn't forcing anybody into anything. He just says if you want the upgrade, like the customer, then order the kit. Live and let live.
@@chrislesnar For the price, I would expect better internals... Just me. Danny has been a very good resource in regards to speaker internals, I have personally learned a lot from watching Danny. He was a motivator in purchasing my Zu's... One cap, and I have the best they offer. ;-)
Yeah, Chris you get it. These people can't see the big picture. They think it's about thier God. It's totally not. It's about ANY jerk trying to fear people into thinking Magnepan has shitty engineers.. freaking retarded. That's why it's one of the most successful speaker companies ever created. Lol. Jesus ... wake the f up.. Danny is brilliant but he sounds like a dickhead slagging Magnepan.. is that what he needs to do to sell his kits ? I'll say not. So why the F does he do it ? And you think I shouldn't call this out ?? Lol. Wow..
@@michaelwright1602This isn't made in China mate. It's a USA made product where labour prices and manufacturing are charged at a fair rate. They would make bugger all profit off the LRS. Care to show me some USA made speakers at $1000 with internals that please you? Not kit speakers, fully assembled retail products with warranties.
@@chrislesnar I purchased a pair of Zu Omen Dirty Weekends for "$900", their original selling price new, I have the receipt here somewhere... How did I do? Oh, those Zu's, they are made in Ogden Utah, by a bunch of Americans, with American made cabinets, drivers and internals. I liked those so much, and still do, I purchased a pair of Zu DW6 Supremes. I think those set me back around $2600... They sound great with my PS Audio DAC/Preamp and little EL-84 tube amp. I can get you a pair of the Zu Omen MKII for around $1200 in the black hickory, a friend is selling a pair. If he likes you, he may let them go for a grand + shipping. Who knows, I may look at another pair of Maggies. But, I am pretty happy with the Zu's for now, not much room around here for more speakers.
Oh someone on FB said cables the other day…Blam! Blood bath… physics out the window, sense out the window, so I asked how do you measure the smell of a rose? Or measure a joke? Or beauty? Lol what a stir!
Ha Ha! I posted a question over at Amir's site in regards to my Worlds Best Cables Mogami coaxial speaker wires, and posted the Mogami data sheet, I was ROASTED! And I did hear a difference, and had to turn my two SVS SB3000 subs back, by a lot. I was called everything but a white man. Bunch of buffoons over there, FB too..
I would say measurements can be important depend on what your goal is. If it's about my own preference in sound and what's most complementary to my hearing response, then measurements don't really matter. However if I want *high-fidelity* sound and want to ensure my DAC or speakers are accurate to a non-colored ideal, then the measurements would be important and I would measure the speakers in my room and EQ or room correct to taste.
Yes, like the Halcro amps from 30 years ago, those amps had the most perfect measurements, almost zero distortion, but it never got popular with the audiophiles, people always described the sound as dry, cold, and not musical, at the other end Phasemation tube amp from Japan, it has 5% THD, but people who have try them say that the sound is to die for, our ears and brain don't care about the measuring numbers, if it sounds good, it's good.
With recipes the temperature or the altitude can affect ingredients and I imagine it is similar in these company's recipes as well. How their manufacturing it and what part of the country their in, etc..
Can you do a vid on speakers that work well with 300B amplifiers? I'm having a helluva time figuring out which ones to audition if I were to purchase a Luxman MQ-300. Fyne? Audionote? Others?
Clearly, you don't listen to my channel. I've never pitched specifications. That's your first sign the seller has no clue about creating an experience. It's for people that don't know any better. Like selling you a TV based on contrast ratio... lol... spec is the easiest way to sell crap to the uninitiated. And it's called Audio Analogue and it's made in Italy. Not "Italy"... it's the real deal..
@@OCDHIFiGuy TBH Mike, I use an ancient TDA1543X8 DAC which measures poorly on all metrics. Costs approx £150, sounds a lot better than the delta-sigma type which have much better specs, so yeah I agree.
Have you seen my hair ? My videos made using a phone only ? You think I give a shit about "looking good" ? Lol. Ridiculous... next, this video is not about Danny, but his circus clowns really really want it to be... I'm an Audio Asshole because I stand for my truths ? Great. I'll wear that proud. You guys are so freaking dense in your limited scope of understanding that you miss the point that is far greater than Danny. (now I'm knocking you as an unaware Human. Are we clear ? ) let me speak your language for a second. Danny KNOCKED Magnepan for being poor engineers, and thats perfectly fine with you. Because you are under the Danny Ether.. but when I knock Danny for knocking Magnepan, wow.. the clowns come running..
I just ordered a pair of these, in black, direct from Magneplanar, hopefully will ship out on Monday... I tried to purchase locally, but the shop gave me the run around. They had a pair in stock, I was ready to go get them, but they said they were holding for a customer with no money. I had cash in hand... Oh well.
Any opinion on Theoretica's system? Wondering if it's worth making a trip to audition it as no one near me I know has it -- arguably it is measurements based.
I don't have a good enough demo to form an opinion. My only demo sounded like an effect. I've been told it's been improved and I need to hear it again.. so eventually I will..
I fully agree to “there is no recipe for good sound”. It is true because the interpretation of good sound is different to everybody. That doesn’t mean that measurements cannot help us to improve our audio systems. Measurements are an objective way to validate a modification. Listening is an subjective way to validate a modification. Sometimes we think, we hear an improvement because we intended to reach an improvement. That’s human. A blind test could help there. I do realise, that as an electronic engineer, it’s not that difficult to do those measurements. The interpretation of the measurement results is still not always easy, and one might need to compare the measurement results with listening. So I think it is not black, nor it is white. There are many grey shades. So everyone should pick a grey shade and be happy.
The beautiful thing in life is the salt. If you want to modify your Maggies to have a different flavor, you can. If you like low distortion, you can have it. If you enjoy "distortion," you can. Life is wonderful.
I don't know about the "other guy" - but - "this guy" was the one who persuaded me to get my pair of these great speakers... just this past week. And... I'm amazed at their great sound!!! I've had MG IIIA's, and also have a pair of Magnestand (Modified Maggies) 1.6 QRS's... as well as Harbeth 40.2's, Linkwitz Orion's, Emerald Physics 3.2's, etc., etc.... which all sound great - BUT - the LRS+'s sound better than any of those. It makes no difference how they "measure" or what their "curves" look like - they sound incredible in all respects! They're resolution, staging and imaging are amazing... and... their bass is fine for most music and is not boomy (e.g. Jazz, Classical, Blues, Country, R&B, Pop - all things acoustic, etc.). I will try them with my REL subs and the Sublime Acoustic active crossover "this guy" recommends. Don't know if I'll try any of the other mods (such as the modified crossover the "other guy" recommends) - we'll see... but... these sound great right out of the box - all the reviews are absolutely true (except those of the "other guy")!
One of Your colleges said it right... flat measurements don't necessarily mean that the sound is the best, but it points out irregularities that could disturb you or make it more pleasing, so its nice to know which reflects that. Good cables can't be measured and power adaptors. High grade capacitors and other parts show absolutely the same measurement, but they change the sound immensely.
If the Audio Equipment brings us Pleasure don't let anybody bring us down! Mikey, keep bringing your Perspective even if Audio Shows want to stop You Tubers from Telling their Personal Opinion! You know, like this Product sounds better to me than that one! Stick it to the Man!✌️
There's a right way and a wrong way to communicate that a product could have been engineered better. And in this instance, I'm not so sure the product was at fault in any way to begin with.
Totally jive with this! I run some old Altecs that I am quite sure measure terribly. My preamp has a big dose of second harmonic distortion, as do the amplifiers. But I'll be damned if it does not whisk me away to paradise. All for peanuts relatively! However, there is a trend in all of the system. Everything is very simple, minimal gain stages, 2 way..... Less is more approach is what I took.
If Amir says it sucks, I look at that as a badge of honor. I own a DAC/Preamp from a big name, Amir and the crew says it is embarrassing and measures horribly, to avoid at all costs, total garbage, but it sounds fantastic to me and others that have heard it. Then the gear with the incredible measurements, best sound since Biblical times, all you will ever need, end game! And it makes my eyes and ears bleed in sonic pain. Do these clowns ever listen to the music these devices produce that they measure? As far as Danny, I can see his point, mainly in replacing the cheesey internals. I have heard improvements in my Zu's by replacing one cap, so I can see where Danny is coming from. And Zu, to their credit offers those upgrades that you can DIY in your own home, or custom order at the time of purchase, which I have also done. So Zu understands there are sonic differences, and they will straight up tell you that. So, I give Danny a pass on his take, Amir and that rabid bunch over at ASR, not so much.
Amir's army of militant measurers are the equivalent audio for the deaf. It's like watching Top Gun on a great home theater system with the volume off and debating the accuracy of the close captioning.
@@Coneman3 I'm not to worried about Danny, Mikey and Maggie... I get it. But I think Danny is doing a real service in regards to speakers and the manufacturers. I have learned a lot from watching Danny, I find his channel extremely informative. Amir and that bunch, and I'm a member over there, a true bunch of buffoons. I had a serious question about some Worlds Best Cables Mogami coaxial speaker wires. I presented the Mogami data sheets and asked a serious question about my experience. You would have thought I called Amir's mother an 304, I was called everything but a white man, and even worse. I have not been back. I have no tolerance for that kind of nonsense.
@michaelwright1602 , I find it baffling the division in our hobby. It mirrors the division in our society. Cable believer vs. Cable denier. A little like Conservative vs. Leftist. One leaves you alone 90% of the time and wants to be treated the same. The other wants to dictate behavior 90% of the time, but only for YOU!
@@michaeltuohy1249 Very true. Who am I to tell someone what they hear? And then to verbally assault them for not bending that knee. The Amir camp is much like that. Danny, I'm cool with him, due to the fact I have heard what the difference a better cap, etc., will do to the sound out of a speaker. The Maggie deal, it is an inexpensive speaker, you get what you pay for. Is it bad engineering? Hell no. It is the bean counters, and a fantastic entry level speaker from an American manufacturer. Why even argue about that?
Good job in explanation of mods & what’s delivered from manufacturer. People have to settle down in making things perfect and going for accuracy. I agree perfect sound is in ears of the beholder. I am settled with my choices and can look at new things and go back to Joy of the Music I have!
Specs and measurements are a great starting place to know that a piece of gear is engineered well. Then after that who cares. It’s really all about the sound and synergy of a system. Does it move you is the most important metric.
Vandersteen has always said the truth is in the listening. But still Vandersteen measurements are excellent and people love Vandersteens. Over 150000 pairs of his model 2s sold.
I know where your coming from but even most speakers use cheap crossover parts that if they are replaced with better partd they are better without being measued flat.
Excellent points! You're not using your eyes watching a spec analyzer, you listen with your ears when enjoying music. If I remember correctly the amount of zeros in the distortion rating & wpc started in the late 70's. Simultaneously quality began to decline.
30 seconds in I could tell this was going to take another swipe at Danny at GR Research. 4 minutes in and he removed all doubt. And my personal taste says there's something else to watch. It's ok to let it go, Mikey. I'm out for this one.
Danny is not that important. It's his story that's bullshit. He wanted to "fix" my TAD speakers too... lol. Okie dokie.... you drink the Kool aid for me man, I'll stand back and watch. .
@OCDHIFiGuy All I know is there are a whoooole bunch o' people who've stated that Danny helped their speakers sound considerably better, for not a whole lot of money. There's nothing wrong with that. They're typically low cost improvements so, why not? Or, we have the guy that says "if the manufacturers wanted their speakers to sound that way then they would have designed them that way" (or whatever the hell you say). But it's ok to bolt subs onto lrs+'s and say, "now they play bass - all better". But, if the boys at magnepan had wanted them to sound that way then that's how they would have built them. Right? The horse is dead, Mikey - get off.
@losendos8963 lol. You're motivating me to make a third video for bozos that don't understand the message. Danny says there's a problem from the factory, and there's not. Let's stop here. Want to argue this ? I make a mod to a great speaker. I don't "fix" a problem. I change it to something I like. It's a great speaker with great success and does not need me for shit. Just like they don't need Danny. They were successful before him and will still be after he's gone and buried. Lol. Think I'm gonna stop ?? You're motivating me to go harder to drive the point into numbskulls. The mod is great. Never knocked the mod nor the people who wanted to. That would be a different story and video. Danny trying to use FEAR to make people second guess Magnepans expertise is a low blow cheap shot. Want to argue this, too ??
It's pissing into the wind, of course, but I'm 100% here for a video addressing "the bozos who don't understand." I shouldn't be. I should be advocating for peace throughout the Land of TH-cam. I know this, and yet, and yet...
Judging equipment is just like being a record producer...at the end of your days, just use your ears. That said, it is also true that some ears are more educated than others. The barometer should always be that it sounds as close as possible to live music. Of course, there are different types of speakers - rock and roll speakers, speakers for classical music or small jazz ensembles. Whenever, I consider buying a new set of speakers I play all of these types of music to see what sounds best on most types of music. I don't want a 'rock speaker' or a classical music speaker. I want something that sounds good on everything.
Yes it all comes down too personal taste perception. A flat frequency response is the level of accuracy Yes it will not guarantee good quality sound But driver selection & the heart of the speaker implementation the quality of parts that are used will determine the quality of sound from my understanding. First order crossover has less phase shift than higher order crossovers But also the more parts in the crossover has other issues. In the end it’s all a trade off. Also manufactures a building speakers too a price point. Some are really good some not so good One of the biggest problems is your room Most people just don’t have the realestate Or have no proper treatments in there room That’s a whole different issue Put one system in one room then change the room most cases it will sound completely different
Don't forget that the room is one of the most important items to impact how a system sounds. Of course, I always say that one can always tell if it is a real piano or real person in any room if blindfolded compared to the best stereo system. Unfortunately, we still don't have a complete understanding how the ear-brain system really works to tell if something is real or from an audio system if blindfolded. Interesting topic. See you at AXPONA.....Prof. Jim
Morning from tropical Scotland 😁 I hope everyone is safe and well 😁Totally agree, I use some measurements and watch reviews but only use them as a guide, but the final say are my ears for example everyone praises the dcs products to some there the greatest thing since slice bread, to me they sound bright and too clinical, it's like someone is polishing the music before it's presented yes the new apex is better but I listened to the new rossini apex with its clock and listened to it be destroyed by a mid level linn sondek lp12 with a koetsu black cartridge, anyway please stay safe everyone and hopefully see you at axpona mikey 😁
Hi Mikey, I partially agree with you. You definitely cannot measure everything, and there is also something like personal preferences. If someone likes to hear the distortion of a tube amplifier, then he should buy himself a tube amplifier and enjoy listening to the warm sound of it. I would not criticise someone for that. However, it is just not my taste. As an electronic engineer, I just think an amplifier should not change the sound in such a way it can be heard. I do think that an amplifier should be flat (within a certain degree and within a certain frequency range). If you want more base or less in the high range, there are better electronic solutions to control that. Every loudspeaker will change the sound, as will the room, that we listen in. We have to accept that. We can try to minimise it, with e.g. better quality components in a passive crossover, or removing the passive crossover and use an active crossover with multiple amplifiers, or acoustical treatments (absorbers and diffusers). In the end, everyone decides for themselves, what is good for his ears (and acceptable for his bank account).
John Dunlavy designed his speakers based on solid engineering and scientific principals but he was able to validate the sound of his speakers because he was a trained musician, His speakers always measured well and many ideas emboldened in his speakers have been copied by others over the years. So it just proves that good measurements doesn't mean it sounds bad either. You need to know how to make the right measurements ;)
Mikey, Want to ask you a question. I believe you somewhat mischaracterized the audio “objectivist’s” position here. Almost no audio objectivist aims to use measurements to identify what sounds the best. They have a completely different goal based upon the mental picture that there is something uniquely specific on any given recording and they want that exact something to come out of their speakers and to hit their ears. Perfect accuracy. A 100% match to the recording. If the resulting sound is awful, they will simply tell you that you are hearing what the artist intended and you’re better off suffering through the ordeal. To my mind, their argument is highly flawed on many levels. For one, it seems to me that while there are measurements that can tell you whether what is being reproduced matches what is on the recording in SOME respects, there is no set of measurements that can tells you whether what is being reproduced matches what is on the recording in EVERY RESPECT. I mean, similarly measuring devices I have tested can sound dramatically different. Hence, it seems to me the objectivist vision ultimately collapses as the selection of components must necessarily be partially subjective. Considering your technical background, would you agree?
Here's how I see it. An audio system either transcends analysis altogether or it triggers it. The latter is a sub par system. Regardless of production quality. The idea of hearing "what the artist intended" is flawed. Many artists wish to evoke a feeling, and it has nothing to do with sound. This whole idea is flawed. To me, an audio system is complete if you stop thinking about how it sounds.
YOU ARE THE LOW FI GUY Do you want fidelity or candy? steak? or imitation meat? Soft AM Radio is less fatiguing than a full dynamic live performance at low distortion 110db SPL , do you fidelity or candy? The whole essence of Hi Fidelity is F I D E L I T Y ! ! ! adding distortion is like adding ketchup ... and a poke in the eye of science YOU ARE THE LOW FI GUY
Use excellent drivers to begin with....that is half the battle. The measurements are only for a baseline/guideline only after which, the experimentation begins and the Magic/Art enters the equation.
I'd heard ASR mentioned many times over my years reading about and researching audio gear but I'd never looked them up or visited their TH-cam channel. Given the recent brouhaha on Mikey's channel, I thought I'd give them a look. I didn't make it past the introductory video, but that video alone made what I consider to be such a strange claim that I didn't feel the need to look any further. Put aside for the moment the phony staged "caught me loudly eating a banana" bit, with its self-conscious lead-footed jocularity, and the jarring note of false modesty in the "we pretend to know a lot more about audio than we really do." No, the strangest comment, at least to me, was the comment that their "mission is to find out if audio and audio products really perform," and that they do that with "testing and analyzing the engineering." I could understand a kind of reverse engineering in which, having found a system that sounds great, testing it to see what its measurements are and to see if there's a measurable constant among great-sounding systems. Doing that might help give a designer a benchmark or at least a starting point from which to begin designing a piece of audio equipment. But to work it from the other end, to determine whether or not a piece of audio equipment "really works" by measuring it rather than going by what you hear, seems to me pure cart before the horse. And really, as a listener, the cart in this case is irrelevant; just ride the horse. If you go to an opera, you don't need measurements to tell you if the tenor sings well. If you listen to a hifi system, you don't need measurements to tell you if it sounds good. You don't need to scientifically "determine" if it "really works." Again, I get that, if I'm building an amp or a speaker, measurements may give me something to aim at, but, in the end, it's your ears that tell you if it really works. Were measurements alone all that was required to build great-sounding gear, then one should be able to make great-sounding gear without ever hearing it. The specs should be enough. If I'm a consumer, will I buy solely on the basis of measurements, or will I go and listen to it, listen to it not only in the store but, if possible, in my own home with my room's own acoustic variables? It seems to me that, to someone who loves listening to music, the ear and, by extension, our response to what we hear, our feelings, are what matter. Measurements are an afterthought, an interesting one to some people, maybe, but entirely secondary to the experience of listening. I've listened to music, live and recorded, and performed it, all my life without ever measuring any of it or thinking of its measurements. I doubt my musical life has been any the poorer for their absence. I certainly never needed a measurement to tell me whether or not what I was listening to "really worked."
Its a thumb down from me on this one. Measurement dosent always give the complete picture, e.g (Psycho Acoustics) but they are certainly fundametals in any good designs. Phase and all that 💩is extremely important. I wish this wasnt the case, and I could just throw away my Clio and all my measuring equipment.
@@OCDHIFiGuy If we are talking frequency respons I totely agree with you, its very personal/ room depending, and quite frankly not even remotely posible to get flat. I personly nedd a dip in 3-4.5 khz range or I will go mad🤪.
I owned what is to my knowledge, the best measuring amplifier in the world, the Benchmark AHB2 and it was the most lifeless, soulless and boring amp I’ve ever heard.
Broad spectrum- there is no “one right way”. We have been lead in life to believe there is in many things especially science related. And I am an engineer
The thing is what is GOOD SOUND. My good sound is not the same as yours. There are people that love the sound from Iphone speakers instead of a system cost $50,000 because the voice is much more pronounce less bass and treble. In the 80s most of very expensive manufactures always claimed their product has less distortion better signal to noise ratio and so on.... Now they say that those does not matter because many $100 has better measurement then their $10,000.
That's why it's crazy to spend big money on power cords that measure better than stock cables! Thousands of dollars for cables is flat out stupid because all the manufacturers use shit power cords?
I don't think you can measure a power cord in any meaningful way insofar as sonic is concerned. People spend thousands on power cables because they freaking feel like it. Specs don't mean shit to most of them, it's about thier own perceived improvements real or imagined. ;-) 😉
Intresting about Magnapan and especially the LTS and it alike. I presume that the tweeter is on the SAME piece of mylar/film, as the "woofer". Then it makes sence to have a shallow crossover filter (6 dB/Oct) between them when they use the same "membrane". 😅 But when we have not heard or compared between 6 dB/Oct and something steaper it is hard to say something definitive. But that is indicating that it is a different animal when 2way drivers usally is not semiseparate. Anyway I don't trust magnapan development when I see the same shit plate and speaker conections, fuse holder, attenuation. In lack of a better word.. Crap. For more than 40 years and ongoing! No development there at all while decades is passing by. But that is one of many reasons that they have a good price/performance ratio. I as a DIY went a step further and mounted quality speaker wire connectors and bypassed (disconnected) all shit (flimsy fuse holder and attenuation steel shit in the path the to the tweeter. I usally don't hear any difference between my different mods that I do. And I don't try fool myself to think that it sounds better. And it is hard to determine if there usally is any difference when musical hearing memory is short (seconds). And swap between A and B needs to be imidetly if small improvements could be detected.. In this case it takes a while to make the modification above and restore the system to be able to start playing again. But oboy what a difference there were and it were pritty huge! And I guess that those that have listened on magnapan for over 40 years with that shit connector plate that they has. Has NEVER heard their own magnapan fully potential! And that is a shame. 😢 (Note it is not only the shit that is removed it is all of the solder connection points in the same signal path. So it is a lot of crap to go trough to finally get to the crossover.)
Do you have any idea how cheap and hypocritical you sound? You talk shit about Magnepan as being horrible, but you are a slave to the brand. Lol. Don't like magnepans engineering, then DONT BUY THEM. But because you KNOW they are the best sound for your dollar you keep them and change them into something you like. So you spit in the face of the woman you sleep with every night. THIS is my case and point. Hypocrisy. Talking shit about the wife that you married because she's not good enough till you can change her to fit your desires. And even AFTER your mods, you still defile the company and shit talk them. Do you see how cracked this is ?? Magnepan is your master... wake up.
@@OCDHIFiGuy That is your opinion. 🤔 I did not knew that they use same shit for more than 40 years in the connector plate when I bought my old pair and saw new ones with the same shit (I call it for what it is when both you and I as DIYs know how much performance bottle neck they are IRW). That is just a observation and a push for magnapan to be able to fix a low hanging fruit. They could call it "LRS++". 😅 You sell modifications that solve partly the same problems/issues and inderectly you concur that there weakness and room for improvements (but you have no initiative to do that) 😢 So you spit in the face with the woman you sleep with every night. And during the day you sell her for money. So you need to be in good fot with her when you are somewhat dependent on her. I am a DIY and is less attached and independent of if magnapan sells many/few speakers. I don't like your way of formulate bad and almost discusting parables like the one above. But that is maybe your true colur and nature. 😢 Probably you should wake up in my opinion. 😜 I got your point but just like you I don't pretend that anything can't be improved upon. 👍💖 I am a developer and DIY. And just got a aha moment of WHY for example LRS+ is probably a different technical animal in comparison to traditional 2way speakers.. And I want to learn and evolve. By seeing your videos where you point out some noteworthy information of speakers and HW weaknesses and strengths. I felt that the technical observations of the driver differences and why we might benefit of a low order crossover design. Plus share some of my experience of its weekneses. I am about learning, evolving and sharing. But you can share technical information and I can't.. 😅 How weird is that in my opinion. 🤔
HiFi isn't even a hobby dear friends. It consists of two parts: Firstly, badly designed equipment. Secondly, the rabbit hole. Guys like OCD Mikey focus very heavily on the rabbit hole. What is the rabbit hole ? It's that place you go down so that it's easy to sell you stuff. Now don't get me wrong, I do have plenty of sympathy for these guys since it is indeed very tough to sell HiFi gear. The rabbit hole comprises all the hype, tripe, BS, audio porn prose, fake news, conspiracy theories and controversies which you care to mention. Ain't TH-cam the perfect vehicle for it ? All kudos to Mikey - my main man.
So David, to you, basically it's all bullshit. Either poorly designed crap or sales manipulation. Why are you here ? Am I missing something? It's not tough to sell HiFi. Take it from me. I'm a longhair, unshaven, audio Ahole that talks shit and uses a phone to shoot my videos with little to no editing and my products walk off the shelf. I don't sell at all. They fly out of my hands.. wonder if maybe I have products that fit a third category you did not mention. The category where it's actually very well designed and priced with integrity so full MSRP is an actual value ?? Ever consider that possibility ??
@@OCDHIFiGuyI’m here because I admire your work Mike . Why else would I be here ? I know a Meister when I see one. Mind you, there are many others who are pretty good too.
I think you will find more consensus and pleasant debate in a Jewish Muslim Christian chat room than you will in a High Fi forum. People have lost the ability to communicate without being obnoxiously overbearing in their opinions. By the time a recorded piece of music hits our ears it has gone through so many different pieces of equipment its not even funny. It matters not to me what a measurement in a reviewers setting is. How it sounds in my setting, TO ME is what matters. signed, "Golden Ear Boy"
Well first and foremost, I think people dont get the point that speakers themselves are the worst part of your chain. Everything behind it maybe amazing, flawless measurements wise but youre listening to the speaker clearly. Followed by the fundamental that people do not really consider, everything you've listened to prior to becoming an audio enthusiast has been loaded with distortion and horrible to mediocre measurements for 99% of those products. We all had sony walkmans and cd players and even sony headphones or stereo setups. Distortion is something that we love, and when it's gone it sounds sterile and very unnatural because you rarely experience that. So with that in mind you must realize why something may seem odd or offset about something with 0 distortion and noise. Part 2 is there are some factors that do play a role on how clean the weakest link in your chain can output. First, your source is really the most crucial piece in my opinion. Than comes the dac, which needs to be as close to flawless as possible. Any amp that does -95 db sinad preferable in the lower power region, 5 watts or less. Part 3 now consider this you must accept the fact that everything with "equal" measurements, lets say an amp and you got two of them that measure identically will not sound the same when implemented differently; it doesn't have to be flawless objectively. So once again we are at a point where we cant consider measurements, not because having perfect measurements means there's no way to great sound. There are many factors beyond that. At the very same time perfect measurements also mean that what you hear may not be pleasant to your ears for one of many reasons, the design is just crap or it's a sound you rarely experience because it rarely exists. So I dont think we can conclude the measurements topic with these facts. Not saying you must be about measurements and objective, just saying theres finite response
Not all audio metrics translate into good sound. But also bad audio metrics don’t translate into good sound. There are certain metrics that do point to good sound. And if you ignore them, then …..well…..you just think this is all pixie dust and people make gear just from their ears. Yeah of course some DACs which measure like a topping sound sterile. Put then again a well engineered speaker is always gonna sound way better than a speaker made with poor materials, poor on and off axis measurements , distortion etc. measurements are awesome and I can’t wait for science to get more accurate metrics for audio. But we also should keep our mind open for stuff we can’t measure but hear.
@@OCDHIFiGuy yeah I like that ratio as well. I mean measurements are awesome man. More power to science to unlock this stuff, so we aren’t taking shots in the dark. But we also need to acknowledge that some stuff we hear has no measurements yet. Yeah for whatever reason I hear a diff from a mere one fucking foot RCA cable to another which measure similarly. Don’t ask me why, but I do. I don’t know if I could pass blind test, but I can hear it and it makes me sleep better at night so I go with it. But I also won’t buy from a manufacturer who won’t post any specs at all in this day and age. I mean resistance, inductance and capacitance should at least be In all cable specs. Cheers
Exactly. A speaker should measure flat. Music does not have a measurement. It's dynamic. I don't want a speaker system that measures all screwy. I want to hear the music, not the speakers.
A poke, your hair if it was dyed could be Karine Jean-Pierre's Measurements Are necessary in the real world, tell that to a Ga HWP that's got you at 82 in a 70, and his gun has just been calibrated.,think we've all been there with that one. Ya gotta have have something and someplace ta hang your ears on. The rest, if your a novice, take experience, and guidance That's why you're watching. Taste? hopefully not "drill-rap" Just kidding!!
Just passing briefly to disapprove of China bashing when you offered this as your rationale for dropping Denafrips in that video. Lots wrong with China for sure, but your comments are just the often repeated inaccurate or exaggerated anti China slogans. I won't be watching again.
WRONG. I'm an acoustical engineer and there is a formula. This is just wrong. Just because you don't understand the physics of sound reproduction is not an indication that it is wrong. You are completely and TOTALLY WRONG at every level. Please strive to get better information and inform people with postulates based on experience, best practices and on scientific facts.
@@Coneman3 Sound reproduction is a science regardless of the opinions of others. It is a definitive process that determines when you can achieve accurate sound. The obvious is your on axis or direct listening window frequency response. Then your directivity linearity and/or sound power response which will be interactive with the room or a convolution. The dynamic linearity or ability to play soft sounds to loud sounds without power compression or distortion is critical to achieving good sound. The less you have of THD the better. Including resonances within the cabinet or enclosure. This would include driver break-up modes, port chuffing and/or any non-linear functions within the system. You have efficiency and sensitivity factors such as insertion losses in passive networks. Higher sensitivity yeilds lower distortion in a general sense. Less heat is generated in higher sensitivity systems and thusly electrical parameters are less likely to drift or change due to heat stresses. I have conducted hundreds of double blind listening tests to verify these general rules of engineering. There are material sciences, mechanical, electrical, and acoustical engineering factors that all go in to determining how to make a good loudspeaker. This is a very general and oversimplification of the process. All of the great studio monitors use this process. Its more than one measurement, its knowing what to measure and what is important and what is negligible. You must know how to set them up in a room and how the loudspeaker will sound based of the particular performance characteristics of the loudspeaker and the rooms acoustics (reflective and absorptive room acoustics, room modes based of room volume and physical dimensions) . It is not taste or preference that determines this, it is science. The music and the mix are subjective. The sound reproduction is objective. These are the facts.
@@flashhog01 Sound reproduction is science. Objective . Writing and creating music as well as mixing and mastering is all expression or subjective. Loudspeakers have definitive parameters that create a formula that creates a fairly accurate tool for reproducing an electrical signal into acoustic sound. Most good loudspeaker engineers follow this protocol. Especially when it comes to studio monitors. The key to utilizing these parameters to your advantage, is to know what to measure and how to use that data to obtain your target goals. It is not a single measurement that defines a loudspeakers performance. It is several types of metrics that define its performance. The on axis or listening window of frequency response is a beginning point but is not enough information to tell you what the loudspeaker will sound like. You will require a sound power response or a balloon plot that tells you not only the frequency response at multiple points but also will access the directivity index and show any comb filtering effects from the loudspeaker. Controlled/linear directivity is critical for good sound. You also need to consider overall sensitivity from overall impedance and things like insertion losses from passive dividing networks and heat stress on the voice coil motors. THD and IMD also should be generally low or below 3% across most of bandpass in which we hear. Linearity from the individual drivers is very important, from quite to loud sounds. All mechanical and power compression in excess of around 5% when reaching SPL's over 100dB will generally cause perturbations that will interfere with you hearing and enjoying the music in the way in which it was intended to be heard. It is also very important that you pay attention to the acoustic space in which the loudspeaker resides. The combination of the loudspeakers response along with the dimensions of the room and the reflective and absorptive coefficients of that space will determine the convolution of acoustics and will tell you what the overall timbre impressions that you will have in that space with those particular loudspeakers. This is not an art or guesswork. It is science and is highly predictable. I have conducted several hundred double blind listening tests that validate this premise. It is statistically possible to utilize measurements to predict which loudspeakers will prefer. This has been documented in research papers. Sound reproduction is science, or the physics of audio, materials and electronics. Whereas music and all parts of music creation is creative and subjective in most aspects.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Cool people don't misinform people with myths rather than the truth. You may offer a sales pitch but you are not helping people with the propagation of false information. I can guarantee good sound using my techniques,. But you can only hope that you are lucky and when you are not, you will then blame the guy that designed and built the equipment that makes your livelihood possible.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
The only measurement I'm interested in is 36-22-36.
I know that's right...
but that's not my taste lmao
There’s no formula for good women 😂
Cheers to that!
Warning about those numbers cause there could be a lot of distortion, wow and flutter, much higher sensitivity, very high resistance, and of course way too loud in decibel ratings. In other words extraordinarily high maintenance costing you way too much money.
If your rig gives you goosebumps and makes your eyes leak...who cares how it measures. Teleport machines cannot be measured. If you have one you know. Go Mikey, keep it going.
There it is... happy listening!
Kind of like dead poets society when the Robin Williams character tells his poetry class to rip out the pages in the poetry measurement book...
There you go !
Danny isn't forcing anybody to mod their speakers. It was a customer who sent in his Maggies. The customer wasn't happy and wanted better. Who are we, or you, to say the customer is wrong?
Danny isn't forcing anybody into anything. He just says if you want the upgrade, like the customer, then order the kit.
Live and let live.
What are you on about? It was Danny throwing shade at the Magnepan engineers that caused the drama. No one cares about the modding.
@@chrislesnar For the price, I would expect better internals... Just me. Danny has been a very good resource in regards to speaker internals, I have personally learned a lot from watching Danny. He was a motivator in purchasing my Zu's... One cap, and I have the best they offer. ;-)
Yeah, Chris you get it. These people can't see the big picture. They think it's about thier God. It's totally not. It's about ANY jerk trying to fear people into thinking Magnepan has shitty engineers.. freaking retarded. That's why it's one of the most successful speaker companies ever created. Lol. Jesus ... wake the f up.. Danny is brilliant but he sounds like a dickhead slagging Magnepan.. is that what he needs to do to sell his kits ? I'll say not. So why the F does he do it ? And you think I shouldn't call this out ?? Lol. Wow..
@@michaelwright1602This isn't made in China mate. It's a USA made product where labour prices and manufacturing are charged at a fair rate. They would make bugger all profit off the LRS.
Care to show me some USA made speakers at $1000 with internals that please you? Not kit speakers, fully assembled retail products with warranties.
@@chrislesnar I purchased a pair of Zu Omen Dirty Weekends for "$900", their original selling price new, I have the receipt here somewhere... How did I do?
Oh, those Zu's, they are made in Ogden Utah, by a bunch of Americans, with American made cabinets, drivers and internals.
I liked those so much, and still do, I purchased a pair of Zu DW6 Supremes. I think those set me back around $2600... They sound great with my PS Audio DAC/Preamp and little EL-84 tube amp.
I can get you a pair of the Zu Omen MKII for around $1200 in the black hickory, a friend is selling a pair. If he likes you, he may let them go for a grand + shipping.
Who knows, I may look at another pair of Maggies. But, I am pretty happy with the Zu's for now, not much room around here for more speakers.
100% true. I've said it's 50% Objective and 50% Subjective and I've swallowed grenades for it too.
Lol. Its a funny circus troupe, Chris...
Oh someone on FB said cables the other day…Blam! Blood bath… physics out the window, sense out the window, so I asked how do you measure the smell of a rose? Or measure a joke? Or beauty? Lol what a stir!
Ha Ha! I posted a question over at Amir's site in regards to my Worlds Best Cables Mogami coaxial speaker wires, and posted the Mogami data sheet, I was ROASTED! And I did hear a difference, and had to turn my two SVS SB3000 subs back, by a lot. I was called everything but a white man. Bunch of buffoons over there, FB too..
I would say measurements can be important depend on what your goal is. If it's about my own preference in sound and what's most complementary to my hearing response, then measurements don't really matter.
However if I want *high-fidelity* sound and want to ensure my DAC or speakers are accurate to a non-colored ideal, then the measurements would be important and I would measure the speakers in my room and EQ or room correct to taste.
Yes, either your goal is listening to music or listening to equipment...
I initially thought this video was targeting Audiophilejunkies, but then I realized it was aimed at GR research
Wow did you miss the point. It's aimed at Magnepan owners.
Yes, like the Halcro amps from 30 years ago, those amps had the most perfect measurements, almost zero distortion, but it never got popular with the audiophiles, people always described the sound as dry, cold, and not musical, at the other end Phasemation tube amp from Japan, it has 5% THD, but people who have try them say that the sound is to die for, our ears and brain don't care about the measuring numbers, if it sounds good, it's good.
There you go !
With recipes the temperature or the altitude can affect ingredients and I imagine it is similar in these company's recipes as well. How their manufacturing it and what part of the country their in, etc..
Can you do a vid on speakers that work well with 300B amplifiers? I'm having a helluva time figuring out which ones to audition if I were to purchase a Luxman MQ-300. Fyne? Audionote? Others?
Any speaker 90Db or higher and 8 Ohm or more.
So how do you price things like the $5500 'Italian' DAC or the $26,000 Playback Designs. What is the extra money for.
Clearly, you don't listen to my channel. I've never pitched specifications. That's your first sign the seller has no clue about creating an experience. It's for people that don't know any better. Like selling you a TV based on contrast ratio... lol... spec is the easiest way to sell crap to the uninitiated. And it's called Audio Analogue and it's made in Italy. Not "Italy"... it's the real deal..
@@OCDHIFiGuy TBH Mike, I use an ancient TDA1543X8 DAC which measures poorly on all metrics. Costs approx £150, sounds a lot better than the delta-sigma type which have much better specs, so yeah I agree.
Everything is built to a price point, it's likely able to be upgraded with better quality parts.
Unless it's cost no object design.
Danny has never said measurements were everything. Careful knocking others to elevate yourself, doesn’t make you look good.
Have you seen my hair ? My videos made using a phone only ? You think I give a shit about "looking good" ? Lol. Ridiculous... next, this video is not about Danny, but his circus clowns really really want it to be... I'm an Audio Asshole because I stand for my truths ? Great. I'll wear that proud. You guys are so freaking dense in your limited scope of understanding that you miss the point that is far greater than Danny. (now I'm knocking you as an unaware Human. Are we clear ? ) let me speak your language for a second. Danny KNOCKED Magnepan for being poor engineers, and thats perfectly fine with you. Because you are under the Danny Ether.. but when I knock Danny for knocking Magnepan, wow.. the clowns come running..
Ha...'they engineer the soul right out the product'...never a truer exposé uttered. 😇
It surely happens... cheers !
Perhaps there is no perfect sound because there are no perfect people? I appreciate your honesty!
That's totally it...
I just ordered a pair of these, in black, direct from Magneplanar, hopefully will ship out on Monday... I tried to purchase locally, but the shop gave me the run around. They had a pair in stock, I was ready to go get them, but they said they were holding for a customer with no money. I had cash in hand... Oh well.
Try them in stock form and tell us how stupid the Magnepan design is...ROFL
..
@@OCDHIFiGuy I will.
"If it sounds good, but measures bad, you are measuring the wrong thing."
Great t shirt !
I 100% agree with the whole “recipe “ analogy. Personal preference coupled with a good ear.
That's it ...
Any opinion on Theoretica's system? Wondering if it's worth making a trip to audition it as no one near me I know has it -- arguably it is measurements based.
I don't have a good enough demo to form an opinion. My only demo sounded like an effect. I've been told it's been improved and I need to hear it again.. so eventually I will..
I fully agree to “there is no recipe for good sound”. It is true because the interpretation of good sound is different to everybody. That doesn’t mean that measurements cannot help us to improve our audio systems. Measurements are an objective way to validate a modification. Listening is an subjective way to validate a modification. Sometimes we think, we hear an improvement because we intended to reach an improvement. That’s human. A blind test could help there.
I do realise, that as an electronic engineer, it’s not that difficult to do those measurements. The interpretation of the measurement results is still not always easy, and one might need to compare the measurement results with listening.
So I think it is not black, nor it is white. There are many grey shades. So everyone should pick a grey shade and be happy.
Never said measurements didn't matter.. 80% measurement, 20% ear is my rule.
Most people never hear the potential of whatever they own because they don’t spend enough time respecting the room.
True. Most people have no idea how to setup either and think they can do it with zero experience...
The beautiful thing in life is the salt. If you want to modify your Maggies to have a different flavor, you can. If you like low distortion, you can have it. If you enjoy "distortion," you can. Life is wonderful.
Bottom line. Wanna smoke one down ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy , I'm more of a whiskey man. A good Scotch is an amazing tweak.
SCORES!! Good God ya'll WHAT ARE THEY GOOD FOR? ABSOLUTELY NOTHIN! SAY IT AGAIN!
I don't know about the "other guy" - but - "this guy" was the one who persuaded me to get my pair of these great speakers... just this past week. And... I'm amazed at their great sound!!!
I've had MG IIIA's, and also have a pair of Magnestand (Modified Maggies) 1.6 QRS's... as well as Harbeth 40.2's, Linkwitz Orion's, Emerald Physics 3.2's, etc., etc.... which all sound great - BUT - the LRS+'s sound better than any of those.
It makes no difference how they "measure" or what their "curves" look like - they sound incredible in all respects! They're resolution, staging and imaging are amazing... and... their bass is fine for most music and is not boomy (e.g. Jazz, Classical, Blues, Country, R&B, Pop - all things acoustic, etc.).
I will try them with my REL subs and the Sublime Acoustic active crossover "this guy" recommends. Don't know if I'll try any of the other mods (such as the modified crossover the "other guy" recommends) - we'll see... but... these sound great right out of the box - all the reviews are absolutely true (except those of the "other guy")!
Current measurements are not sophisticated enough, a bit like the folks who think they are😅
Great point !
One of Your colleges said it right... flat measurements don't necessarily mean that the sound is the best, but it points out irregularities that could disturb you or make it more pleasing, so its nice to know which reflects that. Good cables can't be measured and power adaptors. High grade capacitors and other parts show absolutely the same measurement, but they change the sound immensely.
Yes. Well said..
If the Audio Equipment brings us Pleasure don't let anybody bring us down! Mikey, keep bringing your Perspective even if Audio Shows want to stop You Tubers from Telling their Personal Opinion! You know, like this Product sounds better to me than that one! Stick it to the Man!✌️
Thanks man, and that thing about Audio Shows is false. I know the big 3 producers of the shows and they all said, bullshit. We never said that...
Measurements are an indicator of performance, not a guarantee. The final judge is "the experience".
That's it
There's a right way and a wrong way to communicate that a product could have been engineered better. And in this instance, I'm not so sure the product was at fault in any way to begin with.
Exactly my point...
Totally jive with this! I run some old Altecs that I am quite sure measure terribly. My preamp has a big dose of second harmonic distortion, as do the amplifiers. But I'll be damned if it does not whisk me away to paradise. All for peanuts relatively! However, there is a trend in all of the system. Everything is very simple, minimal gain stages, 2 way..... Less is more approach is what I took.
There it is Paul !!
If Amir says it sucks, I look at that as a badge of honor. I own a DAC/Preamp from a big name, Amir and the crew says it is embarrassing and measures horribly, to avoid at all costs, total garbage, but it sounds fantastic to me and others that have heard it. Then the gear with the incredible measurements, best sound since Biblical times, all you will ever need, end game! And it makes my eyes and ears bleed in sonic pain. Do these clowns ever listen to the music these devices produce that they measure?
As far as Danny, I can see his point, mainly in replacing the cheesey internals. I have heard improvements in my Zu's by replacing one cap, so I can see where Danny is coming from. And Zu, to their credit offers those upgrades that you can DIY in your own home, or custom order at the time of purchase, which I have also done. So Zu understands there are sonic differences, and they will straight up tell you that. So, I give Danny a pass on his take, Amir and that rabid bunch over at ASR, not so much.
Amir's army of militant measurers are the equivalent audio for the deaf. It's like watching Top Gun on a great home theater system with the volume off and debating the accuracy of the close captioning.
@@bobr9605 Ha Ha! Boy you nailed it in regards to the Amir crew! I can see them arguing right now. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
@@Coneman3 I'm not to worried about Danny, Mikey and Maggie... I get it. But I think Danny is doing a real service in regards to speakers and the manufacturers. I have learned a lot from watching Danny, I find his channel extremely informative. Amir and that bunch, and I'm a member over there, a true bunch of buffoons. I had a serious question about some Worlds Best Cables Mogami coaxial speaker wires. I presented the Mogami data sheets and asked a serious question about my experience. You would have thought I called Amir's mother an 304, I was called everything but a white man, and even worse. I have not been back. I have no tolerance for that kind of nonsense.
@michaelwright1602 , I find it baffling the division in our hobby. It mirrors the division in our society.
Cable believer vs. Cable denier. A little like Conservative vs. Leftist.
One leaves you alone 90% of the time and wants to be treated the same. The other wants to dictate behavior 90% of the time, but only for YOU!
@@michaeltuohy1249 Very true. Who am I to tell someone what they hear? And then to verbally assault them for not bending that knee. The Amir camp is much like that. Danny, I'm cool with him, due to the fact I have heard what the difference a better cap, etc., will do to the sound out of a speaker.
The Maggie deal, it is an inexpensive speaker, you get what you pay for. Is it bad engineering? Hell no. It is the bean counters, and a fantastic entry level speaker from an American manufacturer. Why even argue about that?
Good job in explanation of mods & what’s delivered from manufacturer. People have to settle down in making things perfect and going for accuracy. I agree perfect sound is in ears of the beholder. I am settled with my choices and can look at new things and go back to Joy of the Music I have!
That's what matters Larry !!
Cheers!!!! ❤🍻
Please talk Musical Fidelity A1❤
Specs and measurements are a great starting place to know that a piece of gear is engineered well. Then after that who cares. It’s really all about the sound and synergy of a system. Does it move you is the most important metric.
That's it...
Vandersteen has always said the truth is in the listening. But still Vandersteen measurements are excellent and people love Vandersteens. Over 150000 pairs of his model 2s sold.
I believe a lot are sold, but 150,000 ? Over how many years ?
Since the model 2 came out in 1978. It is High end audios best selling speaker of all time. Research it for yourself.
I know where your coming from but even most speakers use cheap crossover parts that if they are replaced with better partd they are better without being measued flat.
Yes
Hey Mikey when are you gonna show us that AA amp?
Very soon !
F'in great video today, Mikey! You impart great knowledge and are entertaining! You said CHUBBY! tee hee hee...
Lol. Glad you enjoyed !
Truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yesssss !
Excellent points! You're not using your eyes watching a spec analyzer, you listen with your ears when enjoying music. If I remember correctly the amount of zeros in the distortion rating & wpc started in the late 70's. Simultaneously quality began to decline.
Totally...
30 seconds in I could tell this was going to take another swipe at Danny at GR Research. 4 minutes in and he removed all doubt. And my personal taste says there's something else to watch. It's ok to let it go, Mikey. I'm out for this one.
Danny is not that important. It's his story that's bullshit. He wanted to "fix" my TAD speakers too... lol. Okie dokie.... you drink the Kool aid for me man, I'll stand back and watch. .
@OCDHIFiGuy All I know is there are a whoooole bunch o' people who've stated that Danny helped their speakers sound considerably better, for not a whole lot of money. There's nothing wrong with that. They're typically low cost improvements so, why not? Or, we have the guy that says "if the manufacturers wanted their speakers to sound that way then they would have designed them that way" (or whatever the hell you say). But it's ok to bolt subs onto lrs+'s and say, "now they play bass - all better". But, if the boys at magnepan had wanted them to sound that way then that's how they would have built them. Right? The horse is dead, Mikey - get off.
@losendos8963 lol. You're motivating me to make a third video for bozos that don't understand the message. Danny says there's a problem from the factory, and there's not. Let's stop here. Want to argue this ? I make a mod to a great speaker. I don't "fix" a problem. I change it to something I like. It's a great speaker with great success and does not need me for shit. Just like they don't need Danny. They were successful before him and will still be after he's gone and buried.
Lol. Think I'm gonna stop ?? You're motivating me to go harder to drive the point into numbskulls. The mod is great. Never knocked the mod nor the people who wanted to. That would be a different story and video. Danny trying to use FEAR to make people second guess Magnepans expertise is a low blow cheap shot. Want to argue this, too ??
Good job Mikey. The Cuban Assassin Fro Bro strikes again! POW
🤜🏻👨🏿🦳🐑🤛🏻
Steamroller
It's pissing into the wind, of course, but I'm 100% here for a video addressing "the bozos who don't understand." I shouldn't be. I should be advocating for peace throughout the Land of TH-cam. I know this, and yet, and yet...
Lol. Join the club
Judging equipment is just like being a record producer...at the end of your days, just use your ears. That said, it is also true that some ears are more educated than others. The barometer should always be that it sounds as close as possible to live music. Of course, there are different types of speakers - rock and roll speakers, speakers for classical music or small jazz ensembles. Whenever, I consider buying a new set of speakers I play all of these types of music to see what sounds best on most types of music. I don't want a 'rock speaker' or a classical music speaker. I want something that sounds good on everything.
Yes it all comes down too personal taste perception.
A flat frequency response is the level of accuracy
Yes it will not guarantee good quality sound
But driver selection & the heart of the speaker implementation the quality of parts that are used will determine the quality of sound from my understanding. First order crossover has less phase shift than higher order crossovers
But also the more parts in the crossover has other issues. In the end it’s all a trade off.
Also manufactures a building speakers too a price point. Some are really good some not so good
One of the biggest problems is your room
Most people just don’t have the realestate
Or have no proper treatments in there room
That’s a whole different issue
Put one system in one room then change the room most cases it will sound completely different
Yep, buy what you like... screw everything else.
Don't forget that the room is one of the most important items to impact how a system sounds. Of course, I always say that one can always tell if it is a real piano or real person in any room if blindfolded compared to the best stereo system. Unfortunately, we still don't have a complete understanding how the ear-brain system really works to tell if something is real or from an audio system if blindfolded. Interesting topic. See you at AXPONA.....Prof. Jim
Hi Jim, I'm skipping AXPONA to go to MUNICH ;-)
He's so on point.🤔🤫🙂
Morning from tropical Scotland 😁 I hope everyone is safe and well 😁Totally agree, I use some measurements and watch reviews but only use them as a guide, but the final say are my ears for example everyone praises the dcs products to some there the greatest thing since slice bread, to me they sound bright and too clinical, it's like someone is polishing the music before it's presented yes the new apex is better but I listened to the new rossini apex with its clock and listened to it be destroyed by a mid level linn sondek lp12 with a koetsu black cartridge, anyway please stay safe everyone and hopefully see you at axpona mikey 😁
Thanks Paul, you get it !
Hi Mikey, I partially agree with you. You definitely cannot measure everything, and there is also something like personal preferences. If someone likes to hear the distortion of a tube amplifier, then he should buy himself a tube amplifier and enjoy listening to the warm sound of it. I would not criticise someone for that. However, it is just not my taste. As an electronic engineer, I just think an amplifier should not change the sound in such a way it can be heard. I do think that an amplifier should be flat (within a certain degree and within a certain frequency range). If you want more base or less in the high range, there are better electronic solutions to control that.
Every loudspeaker will change the sound, as will the room, that we listen in. We have to accept that. We can try to minimise it, with e.g. better quality components in a passive crossover, or removing the passive crossover and use an active crossover with multiple amplifiers, or acoustical treatments (absorbers and diffusers). In the end, everyone decides for themselves, what is good for his ears (and acceptable for his bank account).
I'm pretty sure that by your answer, you 100% agree with me. Tell me where you don't.
John Dunlavy designed his speakers based on solid engineering and scientific principals but he was able to validate the sound of his speakers because he was a trained musician, His speakers always measured well and many ideas emboldened in his speakers have been copied by others over the years. So it just proves that good measurements doesn't mean it sounds bad either. You need to know how to make the right measurements ;)
Never said good measurements sound bad. Dunlavy are great speakers and very accurate and unforgiving. Setup is crucial.. like Thiel ...
Mikey, Want to ask you a question. I believe you somewhat mischaracterized the audio “objectivist’s” position here. Almost no audio objectivist aims to use measurements to identify what sounds the best. They have a completely different goal based upon the mental picture that there is something uniquely specific on any given recording and they want that exact something to come out of their speakers and to hit their ears. Perfect accuracy. A 100% match to the recording. If the resulting sound is awful, they will simply tell you that you are hearing what the artist intended and you’re better off suffering through the ordeal. To my mind, their argument is highly flawed on many levels. For one, it seems to me that while there are measurements that can tell you whether what is being reproduced matches what is on the recording in SOME respects, there is no set of measurements that can tells you whether what is being reproduced matches what is on the recording in EVERY RESPECT. I mean, similarly measuring devices I have tested can sound dramatically different. Hence, it seems to me the objectivist vision ultimately collapses as the selection of components must necessarily be partially subjective. Considering your technical background, would you agree?
Here's how I see it. An audio system either transcends analysis altogether or it triggers it. The latter is a sub par system. Regardless of production quality. The idea of hearing "what the artist intended" is flawed. Many artists wish to evoke a feeling, and it has nothing to do with sound. This whole idea is flawed. To me, an audio system is complete if you stop thinking about how it sounds.
Try telling a 5 star Michelin chef that I/we can do it better, don't forget to bring some bandages lol.
Exactly... think you're gonna piss a few of his best patrons off too ?
YOU ARE THE LOW FI GUY
Do you want fidelity or candy? steak? or imitation meat?
Soft AM Radio is less fatiguing than a full dynamic live performance at low distortion 110db SPL , do you fidelity or candy?
The whole essence of Hi Fidelity is F I D E L I T Y ! ! ! adding distortion is like adding ketchup ... and a poke in the eye of science YOU ARE THE LOW FI GUY
Use excellent drivers to begin with....that is half the battle. The measurements are only for a baseline/guideline only after which, the experimentation begins and the Magic/Art enters the equation.
Yes
I'd heard ASR mentioned many times over my years reading about and researching audio gear but I'd never looked them up or visited their TH-cam channel. Given the recent brouhaha on Mikey's channel, I thought I'd give them a look. I didn't make it past the introductory video, but that video alone made what I consider to be such a strange claim that I didn't feel the need to look any further. Put aside for the moment the phony staged "caught me loudly eating a banana" bit, with its self-conscious lead-footed jocularity, and the jarring note of false modesty in the "we pretend to know a lot more about audio than we really do." No, the strangest comment, at least to me, was the comment that their "mission is to find out if audio and audio products really perform," and that they do that with "testing and analyzing the engineering." I could understand a kind of reverse engineering in which, having found a system that sounds great, testing it to see what its measurements are and to see if there's a measurable constant among great-sounding systems. Doing that might help give a designer a benchmark or at least a starting point from which to begin designing a piece of audio equipment. But to work it from the other end, to determine whether or not a piece of audio equipment "really works" by measuring it rather than going by what you hear, seems to me pure cart before the horse. And really, as a listener, the cart in this case is irrelevant; just ride the horse. If you go to an opera, you don't need measurements to tell you if the tenor sings well. If you listen to a hifi system, you don't need measurements to tell you if it sounds good. You don't need to scientifically "determine" if it "really works." Again, I get that, if I'm building an amp or a speaker, measurements may give me something to aim at, but, in the end, it's your ears that tell you if it really works. Were measurements alone all that was required to build great-sounding gear, then one should be able to make great-sounding gear without ever hearing it. The specs should be enough. If I'm a consumer, will I buy solely on the basis of measurements, or will I go and listen to it, listen to it not only in the store but, if possible, in my own home with my room's own acoustic variables? It seems to me that, to someone who loves listening to music, the ear and, by extension, our response to what we hear, our feelings, are what matter. Measurements are an afterthought, an interesting one to some people, maybe, but entirely secondary to the experience of listening. I've listened to music, live and recorded, and performed it, all my life without ever measuring any of it or thinking of its measurements. I doubt my musical life has been any the poorer for their absence. I certainly never needed a measurement to tell me whether or not what I was listening to "really worked."
👏 👏 👏 you got it !
Its a thumb down from me on this one. Measurement dosent always give the complete picture, e.g (Psycho Acoustics) but they are certainly fundametals in any good designs. Phase and all that 💩is extremely important. I wish this wasnt the case, and I could just throw away my Clio and all my measuring equipment.
Who said measurements mean nothing ?? Perfect measurements suck ass. They are required for broad stroke development. The last 20% is by ear.
@@OCDHIFiGuy If we are talking frequency respons I totely agree with you, its very personal/ room depending, and quite frankly not even remotely posible to get flat. I personly nedd a dip in 3-4.5 khz range or I will go mad🤪.
I owned what is to my knowledge, the best measuring amplifier in the world, the Benchmark AHB2 and it was the most lifeless, soulless and boring amp I’ve ever heard.
At CAF Benchmark consistently had the worst sounding room at the show: sterile, lifeless, overly bright.
Total lifeless amps...
totally Agree
Right ?
I'll stick with what sounds good to me. Everyone's sound signature like is different.
That's it... 💯
Broad spectrum- there is no “one right way”. We have been lead in life to believe there is in many things especially science related. And I am an engineer
There you go. Glad you have an open mind !
The thing is what is GOOD SOUND. My good sound is not the same as yours. There are people that love the sound from Iphone speakers instead of a system cost $50,000 because the voice is much more pronounce less bass and treble. In the 80s most of very expensive manufactures always claimed their product has less distortion better signal to noise ratio and so on.... Now they say that those does not matter because many $100 has better measurement then their $10,000.
Right. Good measurement does not mean good sound.
All i care about is the music, if i can connect to it i'm good to go
DING DING DING !!! YOU WIN !!
That's why it's crazy to spend big money on power cords that measure better than stock cables! Thousands of dollars for cables is flat out stupid because all the manufacturers use shit power cords?
I don't think you can measure a power cord in any meaningful way insofar as sonic is concerned. People spend thousands on power cables because they freaking feel like it. Specs don't mean shit to most of them, it's about thier own perceived improvements real or imagined. ;-) 😉
Intresting about Magnapan and especially the LTS and it alike.
I presume that the tweeter is on the SAME piece of mylar/film, as the "woofer".
Then it makes sence to have a shallow crossover filter (6 dB/Oct) between them when they use the same "membrane". 😅
But when we have not heard or compared between 6 dB/Oct and something steaper it is hard to say something definitive. But that is indicating that it is a different animal when 2way drivers usally is not semiseparate.
Anyway I don't trust magnapan development when I see the same shit plate and speaker conections, fuse holder, attenuation. In lack of a better word.. Crap. For more than 40 years and ongoing!
No development there at all while decades is passing by.
But that is one of many reasons that they have a good price/performance ratio.
I as a DIY went a step further and mounted quality speaker wire connectors and bypassed (disconnected) all shit (flimsy fuse holder and attenuation steel shit in the path the to the tweeter.
I usally don't hear any difference between my different mods that I do. And I don't try fool myself to think that it sounds better.
And it is hard to determine if there usally is any difference when musical hearing memory is short (seconds). And swap between A and B needs to be imidetly if small improvements could be detected..
In this case it takes a while to make the modification above and restore the system to be able to start playing again.
But oboy what a difference there were and it were pritty huge!
And I guess that those that have listened on magnapan for over 40 years with that shit connector plate that they has.
Has NEVER heard their own magnapan fully potential!
And that is a shame. 😢
(Note it is not only the shit that is removed it is all of the solder connection points in the same signal path. So it is a lot of crap to go trough to finally get to the crossover.)
Do you have any idea how cheap and hypocritical you sound?
You talk shit about Magnepan as being horrible, but you are a slave to the brand. Lol. Don't like magnepans engineering, then DONT BUY THEM. But because you KNOW they are the best sound for your dollar you keep them and change them into something you like. So you spit in the face of the woman you sleep with every night.
THIS is my case and point. Hypocrisy. Talking shit about the wife that you married because she's not good enough till you can change her to fit your desires. And even AFTER your mods, you still defile the company and shit talk them. Do you see how cracked this is ?? Magnepan is your master... wake up.
@@OCDHIFiGuy That is your opinion. 🤔
I did not knew that they use same shit for more than 40 years in the connector plate when I bought my old pair and saw new ones with the same shit (I call it for what it is when both you and I as DIYs know how much performance bottle neck they are IRW).
That is just a observation and a push for magnapan to be able to fix a low hanging fruit. They could call it "LRS++". 😅
You sell modifications that solve partly the same problems/issues and inderectly you concur that there weakness and room for improvements (but you have no initiative to do that) 😢
So you spit in the face with the woman you sleep with every night. And during the day you sell her for money.
So you need to be in good fot with her when you are somewhat dependent on her.
I am a DIY and is less attached and independent of if magnapan sells many/few speakers.
I don't like your way of formulate bad and almost discusting parables like the one above. But that is maybe your true colur and nature. 😢
Probably you should wake up in my opinion. 😜
I got your point but just like you I don't pretend that anything can't be improved upon. 👍💖
I am a developer and DIY. And just got a aha moment of WHY for example LRS+ is probably a different technical animal in comparison to traditional 2way speakers..
And I want to learn and evolve. By seeing your videos where you point out some noteworthy information of speakers and HW weaknesses and strengths.
I felt that the technical observations of the driver differences and why we might benefit of a low order crossover design. Plus share some of my experience of its weekneses.
I am about learning, evolving and sharing.
But you can share technical information and I can't.. 😅
How weird is that in my opinion. 🤔
All Pizzas are NOT created Equal 😊
Path Audio 1.2R 10w, 20.7s tweets ♥️
HiFi isn't even a hobby dear friends. It consists of two parts: Firstly, badly designed equipment. Secondly, the rabbit hole. Guys like OCD Mikey focus very heavily on the rabbit hole. What is the rabbit hole ? It's that place you go down so that it's easy to sell you stuff. Now don't get me wrong, I do have plenty of sympathy for these guys since it is indeed very tough to sell HiFi gear. The rabbit hole comprises all the hype, tripe, BS, audio porn prose, fake news, conspiracy theories and controversies which you care to mention. Ain't TH-cam the perfect vehicle for it ? All kudos to Mikey - my main man.
So David, to you, basically it's all bullshit. Either poorly designed crap or sales manipulation. Why are you here ? Am I missing something? It's not tough to sell HiFi. Take it from me. I'm a longhair, unshaven, audio Ahole that talks shit and uses a phone to shoot my videos with little to no editing and my products walk off the shelf. I don't sell at all. They fly out of my hands.. wonder if maybe I have products that fit a third category you did not mention. The category where it's actually very well designed and priced with integrity so full MSRP is an actual value ?? Ever consider that possibility ??
@@OCDHIFiGuyI’m here because I admire your work Mike . Why else would I be here ? I know a Meister when I see one. Mind you, there are many others who are pretty good too.
I think you will find more consensus and pleasant debate in a Jewish Muslim Christian chat room than you will in a High Fi forum. People have lost the ability to communicate without being obnoxiously overbearing in their opinions.
By the time a recorded piece of music hits our ears it has gone through so many different pieces of equipment its not even funny. It matters not to me what a measurement in a reviewers setting is. How it sounds in my setting, TO ME is what matters. signed, "Golden Ear Boy"
That's it 1911... you nailed it... 👏
It seems like you have beef with Danny...
Nope. Just letting LRS+ buyers know there's nothing to be worried about with thier speakers in stock form.
Cajun food and cajun music are a matter of taste. Audio reproduction is a matter of technology and science. What utter tripe.
Wow, how boring. You go with the Science, ill go with the Cajun food. There's a site for you called Audio Science Review. Your leader is named Amir.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I love both Cajun food and Cajun music. But I respect science and the technology it makes possible.
Well first and foremost, I think people dont get the point that speakers themselves are the worst part of your chain. Everything behind it maybe amazing, flawless measurements wise but youre listening to the speaker clearly.
Followed by the fundamental that people do not really consider, everything you've listened to prior to becoming an audio enthusiast has been loaded with distortion and horrible to mediocre measurements for 99% of those products. We all had sony walkmans and cd players and even sony headphones or stereo setups. Distortion is something that we love, and when it's gone it sounds sterile and very unnatural because you rarely experience that.
So with that in mind you must realize why something may seem odd or offset about something with 0 distortion and noise.
Part 2 is there are some factors that do play a role on how clean the weakest link in your chain can output. First, your source is really the most crucial piece in my opinion. Than comes the dac, which needs to be as close to flawless as possible. Any amp that does -95 db sinad preferable in the lower power region, 5 watts or less.
Part 3 now consider this you must accept the fact that everything with "equal" measurements, lets say an amp and you got two of them that measure identically will not sound the same when implemented differently; it doesn't have to be flawless objectively. So once again we are at a point where we cant consider measurements, not because having perfect measurements means there's no way to great sound. There are many factors beyond that. At the very same time perfect measurements also mean that what you hear may not be pleasant to your ears for one of many reasons, the design is just crap or it's a sound you rarely experience because it rarely exists.
So I dont think we can conclude the measurements topic with these facts. Not saying you must be about measurements and objective, just saying theres finite response
Bottom line is use what sounds good and screw everything else, including reasons and explanations and measurements. ;-)
Soul is the most important element of music. So if your hi-fi doesn't convey that soul it is doing an injustice to the music.
Precisely !
As a theologian, I guess this makes me the expert :) (just having a bit of fun. I can think of many clever replies...) Thanks, my friend!
JIM Thiel.
Lol. Thanks. I get the two mixed up...
Like there is no perfect woman. They all have different measurements
And more than one will satisfy
@@OCDHIFiGuy As long as you position them well with a little tweaking
@@artyfhartie2269 yep, great frequency curves and deep soundstage
Not all audio metrics translate into good sound. But also bad audio metrics don’t translate into good sound.
There are certain metrics that do point to good sound. And if you ignore them, then …..well…..you just think this is all pixie dust and people make gear just from their ears.
Yeah of course some DACs which measure like a topping sound sterile.
Put then again a well engineered speaker is always gonna sound way better than a speaker made with poor materials, poor on and off axis measurements , distortion etc.
measurements are awesome and I can’t wait for science to get more accurate metrics for audio.
But we also should keep our mind open for stuff we can’t measure but hear.
80% measurement, 20% by ear...
@@OCDHIFiGuy yeah I like that ratio as well. I mean measurements are awesome man. More power to science to unlock this stuff, so we aren’t taking shots in the dark. But we also need to acknowledge that some stuff we hear has no measurements yet.
Yeah for whatever reason I hear a diff from a mere one fucking foot RCA cable to another which measure similarly. Don’t ask me why, but I do. I don’t know if I could pass blind test, but I can hear it and it makes me sleep better at night so I go with it.
But I also won’t buy from a manufacturer who won’t post any specs at all in this day and age. I mean resistance, inductance and capacitance should at least be In all cable specs.
Cheers
@Nightjar726 I think I'll do Poop audio cables. Sound like shit. No spec. Just a claim of shitty sound.. watch them sell....
Bad measurements usually guarantee bad sound, but no measurement accounts for taste , so be it ..!.
Regards
The better the measurements are, the more accurate the reproduction is. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. A speaker should measure flat. Music does not have a measurement. It's dynamic.
I don't want a speaker system that measures all screwy. I want to hear the music, not the speakers.
A poke, your hair if it was dyed could be Karine Jean-Pierre's Measurements Are necessary in the real world, tell that to a Ga HWP that's got you at 82 in a 70, and his gun has just been calibrated.,think we've all been there with that one. Ya gotta have have something and someplace ta hang your ears on. The rest, if your a novice, take experience, and guidance That's why you're watching. Taste? hopefully not "drill-rap" Just kidding!!
Her hair is not gray...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I did say if yours was dyed! Say hi to Jo
Just passing briefly to disapprove of China bashing when you offered this as your rationale for dropping Denafrips in that video. Lots wrong with China for sure, but your comments are just the often repeated inaccurate or exaggerated anti China slogans. I won't be watching again.
It's nice to have freedom of choice, isn't it ??
@OCDHIFiGuy Yes, it is nice to have freedom of choice. We agree on that.
Audiosciencereview always goes bye test results and they shit on all products
And they don't listen to music...
@@OCDHIFiGuy They listen with their Oscilloscopes and enjoy the perfect geometry of the Sine wave and the FFT's
WRONG. I'm an acoustical engineer and there is a formula. This is just wrong. Just because you don't understand the physics of sound reproduction is not an indication that it is wrong. You are completely and TOTALLY WRONG at every level. Please strive to get better information and inform people with postulates based on experience, best practices and on scientific facts.
Instead of conveying your feelings, try presenting an argument.
@@Coneman3 Sound reproduction is a science regardless of the opinions of others. It is a definitive process that determines when you can achieve accurate sound. The obvious is your on axis or direct listening window frequency response. Then your directivity linearity and/or sound power response which will be interactive with the room or a convolution. The dynamic linearity or ability to play soft sounds to loud sounds without power compression or distortion is critical to achieving good sound. The less you have of THD the better. Including resonances within the cabinet or enclosure. This would include driver break-up modes, port chuffing and/or any non-linear functions within the system. You have efficiency and sensitivity factors such as insertion losses in passive networks. Higher sensitivity yeilds lower distortion in a general sense. Less heat is generated in higher sensitivity systems and thusly electrical parameters are less likely to drift or change due to heat stresses. I have conducted hundreds of double blind listening tests to verify these general rules of engineering. There are material sciences, mechanical, electrical, and acoustical engineering factors that all go in to determining how to make a good loudspeaker. This is a very general and oversimplification of the process. All of the great studio monitors use this process. Its more than one measurement, its knowing what to measure and what is important and what is negligible. You must know how to set them up in a room and how the loudspeaker will sound based of the particular performance characteristics of the loudspeaker and the rooms acoustics (reflective and absorptive room acoustics, room modes based of room volume and physical dimensions) . It is not taste or preference that determines this, it is science. The music and the mix are subjective. The sound reproduction is objective. These are the facts.
Yawn. We want to hang out with cool people. NOT righteous engineers that vomit science. Get lost ...
@@flashhog01 Sound reproduction is science. Objective . Writing and creating music as well as mixing and mastering is all expression or subjective. Loudspeakers have definitive parameters that create a formula that creates a fairly accurate tool for reproducing an electrical signal into acoustic sound. Most good loudspeaker engineers follow this protocol. Especially when it comes to studio monitors. The key to utilizing these parameters to your advantage, is to know what to measure and how to use that data to obtain your target goals. It is not a single measurement that defines a loudspeakers performance. It is several types of metrics that define its performance. The on axis or listening window of frequency response is a beginning point but is not enough information to tell you what the loudspeaker will sound like. You will require a sound power response or a balloon plot that tells you not only the frequency response at multiple points but also will access the directivity index and show any comb filtering effects from the loudspeaker. Controlled/linear directivity is critical for good sound. You also need to consider overall sensitivity from overall impedance and things like insertion losses from passive dividing networks and heat stress on the voice coil motors. THD and IMD also should be generally low or below 3% across most of bandpass in which we hear. Linearity from the individual drivers is very important, from quite to loud sounds. All mechanical and power compression in excess of around 5% when reaching SPL's over 100dB will generally cause perturbations that will interfere with you hearing and enjoying the music in the way in which it was intended to be heard. It is also very important that you pay attention to the acoustic space in which the loudspeaker resides. The combination of the loudspeakers response along with the dimensions of the room and the reflective and absorptive coefficients of that space will determine the convolution of acoustics and will tell you what the overall timbre impressions that you will have in that space with those particular loudspeakers. This is not an art or guesswork. It is science and is highly predictable. I have conducted several hundred double blind listening tests that validate this premise. It is statistically possible to utilize measurements to predict which loudspeakers will prefer. This has been documented in research papers. Sound reproduction is science, or the physics of audio, materials and electronics. Whereas music and all parts of music creation is creative and subjective in most aspects.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Cool people don't misinform people with myths rather than the truth. You may offer a sales pitch but you are not helping people with the propagation of false information. I can guarantee good sound using my techniques,. But you can only hope that you are lucky and when you are not, you will then blame the guy that designed and built the equipment that makes your livelihood possible.