Great stuff Treeck! I liked this video a lot. As the viewers have mentioned, some examples would make this video amazing! Anyway, love seeing the effort you are putting in. Good luck and may we both grow our channels together!
My terminology: ''Monster'': site with at least 12pp, ''Dry'' board: no monsters, ''Stacked'' board, plenty of monsters. ''Tri-pods'' patterns of 4 available points, one of which is adjacent the remaining 3. A player may choose to 'close' the tripod, place it in the center, or 'open it' , placing at the edge and vying for the remaining 2 sites. ''Production'' strategy: high wheat and ore, decent and paired wood and brick, little to no sheep, focus on building and expansion. Position 1: Don't like playing P1 very much. I'm most happy if the board is stacked, since I can get a strong production square first. I analyze all the 'strong ports' (pp 8 or 9) and see which strategy will pair well with my starting square, since I might very well end up locked out of the center of the board. Gravitate more towards OWS and production, because a quick city up will make my top producing city a monster. One should also ideally place the first city to be aligned towards another strong port, since it is extremely unlikely any other player will take it. Lock-out: DO NOT go for any sort of lock out if you're P1. The only person you end up hurting is YOURSELF, since everyone else is less likely to run out of good squares than you! Position 2: Probably my favorite. I can usually select something as good or almost as good as P1, whether the board is dry or stacked and I can look at potential good production sites in the interior, since there is little to no risk of being locked out completely of the interior. I can do OWS or production, though Longest Road also becomes viable if I can secure a monster 12-13pp wheat, brick, wood site. Lock-out: Second placement should definitely open tripods, since at least one other end will be eligible. All, things equal, a lock out strategy should be employed on the second placement (NOT on the first) to make P1 cry. Position 3: Probably no monsters (if P1 and P2 left a monster, TAKE IT!), so I prefer dry boards as P3, since my first pick won't be much worse, but the second pick might be significantly better than P1 and P2. It's about matching strong squares and making sure the second square has a back-up, in such a way that it's disadvantageous for P4 to nab both. OWS is seldom used (but not impossible), Longest Road is most often in the cards, though a good Production strategy is possible and even a Port strategy is viable, since the previous grabs might lead to a drastic disbalance of material remaining. Lock-out: On second placement it might be worth to open tripods if the other two sites are sufficiently weak (8 pp or less) to not be attractive enough as an initial placement. Otherwise, locking out P1 and P2 as much as possible is preferable. Position 4: The easiest to play. You'll get two decent squares in the 9-11p range. Make sure they match well. It goes without saying to save the site giving you Free Road for the second pick. Anything goes for P4 as mentioned in the video, except OWS. Post strategy is often used. Lock-out: As liberally as possible. For P4 it is better to close tripods so the opponents have a tougher time with the final 3 placements. No worth holding out for good sites in the center as the others will nab them. Just make sure to have access to the edge and some ports. Overall, I think my least favorite is P1 because the biggest drop in quality of placement is from the 7th to the 8th position. For the same reason, my most favorite position is P2.
Thanks for the tips Treek. I agree about the examples. Perhaps a follow up vid? :) Some good advice, I am always frustrated trying to get the most popular plans setup in 4th position that I fail at finding the right plan most of the time. Or as you point out, forcing an inferior plan that one of the other players will surely have and be better positioned for. Finding the alternate plans is not something I do easily. This video is a good reminder to push yourself to play outside of the box. Its a game in the end, and losing is part of the learning curve. Thanks again!
Hey Sonny, my next video will be a C&K placements guide. But the video after that one hasn't been decided yet - so perhaps :) My opinion on 4th position is that you have to outplay the other players most of the time, so I agree with your message and I could not have said it better myself.
Thanks Treeck. MaskedTio here. I think it depends on the board, but 2nd and 3rd are generally the best. Rare occurrences i find fourth to work. If you know your opponents, and study the board, this is the best way to determine the best position for starting. I have won finals in all positions, and have chosen to be first and third in winning finals at qualifiers.
Hey MaskedTio, thanks for your thoughts. My favorite is 4th, because I'm forced to think outside of the box. I think I have the highest win-rate with 2nd position. It kinda has the same advantages as 1st position, but with desert hexes in the second ring, you don't have to place on a 2 hex spot often.
@@Treeckosaurus i know you collected this data in some tournament games online. I believe those tournaments can have skewed results though. I have played with people in these tournaments who think 4th position is the best, so they immediately put the robber on that player. I know that there are bad players and they will affect every starting position, but I wonder if you collected data from just a set group of players, and if you haven't, what results that may have?
I think with Catan and how meta-games change with player level, it's tough to say if the data analysis applies to every group of players. I think King of Catan (the pool I got the data from) has a wide variety of players with different levels. I'd say the level in KoC is way above average, but the results might be different if you only ask the proven competitors for example. Here's the link to the data research video: th-cam.com/video/Dx5HZPJqMTc/w-d-xo.html
Great video Treeckosaurus. I agree that a few examples would make the video a bit more easy to understand - maybe put like 3 examples in the next time? Besides that, I like these short videos, especially for newcomers!
Great tips. I like going 2nd or 3rd. Even though 1st has access to the “strongest” placement I don’t like having to pick from the leftover garbage for my second placement. I feel that 2nd and 3rd have more control over the game with their choices and that their decisions effect the game more. No metrics to prove, just a feeling. However I love pulling out a win from 4th position! Also Treeck-when and where do you steam games?
If there are three clear good starting settlements, then I would prefer 3rd, otherwise 2nd. There are cases where 1st is good such as a 5/6/9 with brick and ore where the other brick and ore hexes are on 2/3/11/12. You would have to take that or risk being shut out of rare resources. If this were C&K, then I would prefer 4th position regardless of how the board is set up. Being able to choose 1st city is very valuable.
My favorite positions are first and fourth. First, if there is one outstanding spot on the board that I get. Fourth, if the difference between the value of the first and fourth spots is not too great, and I get the first pick on the second round behind my fourth pick. Then I can take my first choice with my "second" pick say wood brick wheat, and get a free road, while choosing, say ore and two sheep with my "first" pick. I think that third, not fourth position is the "true" worst.
Thanks for your thoughts. I think 3rd can work well if you're good at predicting where 4th goes. All positions can work of course, and I'm generally happy with all four of them. 4th was my favorite at the time of making this video, I feel like I've explored it a bit too much, so all positions are evenly great right now (for me personally - not in terms of win-rates)
Personally if I given unlimited time, I think 1st position would be the best, you can thoroughly analyse the board and (with good players) perfectly predict all settlements. However with in game timers I much prefer 3rd position or some times if the board is easier to analyse 2nd position. Which position do you prefer?
My favorite is 4th, because I'm forced to think outside of the box. I think I have the highest win-rate with 2nd position. It kinda has the same advantages as 1st position, but with desert hexes in the second ring, you don't have to place on a 2 hex spot often
personaly I like 3rd position the most followed by an undisided second place between 2nd and 4th position but I do not like being in 1st position becaus I might get a good first spot but I can't garrentee that I will get a complementing second spot and I get targeted more because of that first good spot
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Great stuff Treeck! I liked this video a lot. As the viewers have mentioned, some examples would make this video amazing! Anyway, love seeing the effort you are putting in. Good luck and may we both grow our channels together!
Thanks Dyl! I certainly hope, let's cheers to that!
Love your channel Dylan!
My terminology:
''Monster'': site with at least 12pp,
''Dry'' board: no monsters,
''Stacked'' board, plenty of monsters.
''Tri-pods'' patterns of 4 available points, one of which is adjacent the remaining 3. A player may choose to 'close' the tripod, place it in the center, or 'open it' , placing at the edge and vying for the remaining 2 sites.
''Production'' strategy: high wheat and ore, decent and paired wood and brick, little to no sheep, focus on building and expansion.
Position 1: Don't like playing P1 very much. I'm most happy if the board is stacked, since I can get a strong production square first. I analyze all the 'strong ports' (pp 8 or 9) and see which strategy will pair well with my starting square, since I might very well end up locked out of the center of the board. Gravitate more towards OWS and production, because a quick city up will make my top producing city a monster. One should also ideally place the first city to be aligned towards another strong port, since it is extremely unlikely any other player will take it.
Lock-out: DO NOT go for any sort of lock out if you're P1. The only person you end up hurting is YOURSELF, since everyone else is less likely to run out of good squares than you!
Position 2: Probably my favorite. I can usually select something as good or almost as good as P1, whether the board is dry or stacked and I can look at potential good production sites in the interior, since there is little to no risk of being locked out completely of the interior. I can do OWS or production, though Longest Road also becomes viable if I can secure a monster 12-13pp wheat, brick, wood site.
Lock-out: Second placement should definitely open tripods, since at least one other end will be eligible. All, things equal, a lock out strategy should be employed on the second placement (NOT on the first) to make P1 cry.
Position 3: Probably no monsters (if P1 and P2 left a monster, TAKE IT!), so I prefer dry boards as P3, since my first pick won't be much worse, but the second pick might be significantly better than P1 and P2. It's about matching strong squares and making sure the second square has a back-up, in such a way that it's disadvantageous for P4 to nab both. OWS is seldom used (but not impossible), Longest Road is most often in the cards, though a good Production strategy is possible and even a Port strategy is viable, since the previous grabs might lead to a drastic disbalance of material remaining.
Lock-out: On second placement it might be worth to open tripods if the other two sites are sufficiently weak (8 pp or less) to not be attractive enough as an initial placement. Otherwise, locking out P1 and P2 as much as possible is preferable.
Position 4: The easiest to play. You'll get two decent squares in the 9-11p range. Make sure they match well. It goes without saying to save the site giving you Free Road for the second pick. Anything goes for P4 as mentioned in the video, except OWS. Post strategy is often used.
Lock-out: As liberally as possible. For P4 it is better to close tripods so the opponents have a tougher time with the final 3 placements. No worth holding out for good sites in the center as the others will nab them. Just make sure to have access to the edge and some ports.
Overall, I think my least favorite is P1 because the biggest drop in quality of placement is from the 7th to the 8th position. For the same reason, my most favorite position is P2.
Great comment. Thank you for your insights!
Thanks for the tips Treek. I agree about the examples. Perhaps a follow up vid? :)
Some good advice, I am always frustrated trying to get the most popular plans setup in 4th position that I fail at finding the right plan most of the time. Or as you point out, forcing an inferior plan that one of the other players will surely have and be better positioned for. Finding the alternate plans is not something I do easily. This video is a good reminder to push yourself to play outside of the box. Its a game in the end, and losing is part of the learning curve.
Thanks again!
Hey Sonny, my next video will be a C&K placements guide. But the video after that one hasn't been decided yet - so perhaps :)
My opinion on 4th position is that you have to outplay the other players most of the time, so I agree with your message and I could not have said it better myself.
Thanks Treeck. MaskedTio here. I think it depends on the board, but 2nd and 3rd are generally the best. Rare occurrences i find fourth to work. If you know your opponents, and study the board, this is the best way to determine the best position for starting. I have won finals in all positions, and have chosen to be first and third in winning finals at qualifiers.
Hey MaskedTio, thanks for your thoughts. My favorite is 4th, because I'm forced to think outside of the box. I think I have the highest win-rate with 2nd position. It kinda has the same advantages as 1st position, but with desert hexes in the second ring, you don't have to place on a 2 hex spot often.
@@Treeckosaurus i know you collected this data in some tournament games online. I believe those tournaments can have skewed results though. I have played with people in these tournaments who think 4th position is the best, so they immediately put the robber on that player. I know that there are bad players and they will affect every starting position, but I wonder if you collected data from just a set group of players, and if you haven't, what results that may have?
I think with Catan and how meta-games change with player level, it's tough to say if the data analysis applies to every group of players. I think King of Catan (the pool I got the data from) has a wide variety of players with different levels. I'd say the level in KoC is way above average, but the results might be different if you only ask the proven competitors for example.
Here's the link to the data research video: th-cam.com/video/Dx5HZPJqMTc/w-d-xo.html
I think an in person tournament might reflect a different set of data, because the boards can be controlled for everyone playing the same board.
Ah okay, that's not the case for this data.
Great video Treeckosaurus. I agree that a few examples would make the video a bit more easy to understand - maybe put like 3 examples in the next time?
Besides that, I like these short videos, especially for newcomers!
Thanks Shin! I will :) Thank you for your feedback and I'm glad you enjoyed the video
Your strategies analyses and the editing are just really great! Will try to combine ALL your tips in my next game! 😉😂
Thanks Starshine! Looking forward to a High Production, Road-Builder-, Port-, Lockout-Strategy with great OWS and 5 Resources!
@@Treeckosaurus Easy win confirmed. 😂
Some egzamples would spice UP this vid. But still, great job man!
I agree. Realized while watching the video just before uploading, thanks! I'm glad you like it!
Great tips. I like going 2nd or 3rd. Even though 1st has access to the “strongest” placement I don’t like having to pick from the leftover garbage for my second placement. I feel that 2nd and 3rd have more control over the game with their choices and that their decisions effect the game more. No metrics to prove, just a feeling. However I love pulling out a win from 4th position!
Also Treeck-when and where do you steam games?
Thanks for sharing!
I occasionally stream on Twitch, but it's not one of my main goal this year: kingofcatan.net/treeckosaurus-livestream/
If there are three clear good starting settlements, then I would prefer 3rd, otherwise 2nd. There are cases where 1st is good such as a 5/6/9 with brick and ore where the other brick and ore hexes are on 2/3/11/12. You would have to take that or risk being shut out of rare resources. If this were C&K, then I would prefer 4th position regardless of how the board is set up. Being able to choose 1st city is very valuable.
Thanks for your comment! I think 2nd is best in C&K as well, but I agree with the rest of what you wrote
love it. Keep up the great work henk!
Thanks Austin!
My favorite positions are first and fourth. First, if there is one outstanding spot on the board that I get. Fourth, if the difference between the value of the first and fourth spots is not too great, and I get the first pick on the second round behind my fourth pick. Then I can take my first choice with my "second" pick say wood brick wheat, and get a free road, while choosing, say ore and two sheep with my "first" pick. I think that third, not fourth position is the "true" worst.
Thanks for your thoughts. I think 3rd can work well if you're good at predicting where 4th goes. All positions can work of course, and I'm generally happy with all four of them. 4th was my favorite at the time of making this video, I feel like I've explored it a bit too much, so all positions are evenly great right now (for me personally - not in terms of win-rates)
Great video thnx!
You're welcome Alberto!
some board examples would be nice!!
Agreed
Personally if I given unlimited time, I think 1st position would be the best, you can thoroughly analyse the board and (with good players) perfectly predict all settlements.
However with in game timers I much prefer 3rd position or some times if the board is easier to analyse 2nd position.
Which position do you prefer?
My favorite is 4th, because I'm forced to think outside of the box. I think I have the highest win-rate with 2nd position. It kinda has the same advantages as 1st position, but with desert hexes in the second ring, you don't have to place on a 2 hex spot often
personaly I like 3rd position the most followed by an undisided second place between 2nd and 4th position but I do not like being in 1st position becaus I might get a good first spot but I can't garrentee that I will get a complementing second spot and I get targeted more because of that first good spot
That's understandable, 3rd position is great too! Great thoughts :)
Is getting in game currency possible for a freeto play?
I don't think so
Aw :"