Premiership Rugby's Financial Reckoning? What The New Report Reveals |
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2024
- Alex, Hask, and Tins dive into the financial future of Premiership Rugby. Special guest Alex Cadwallader, Director at Leonard Curtis, joins the crew to discuss the newly released Leonard Curtis report, which examines the financial health of Premiership clubs from 2018 to 2023. With seven out of ten clubs reported to be balance sheet insolvent, the team explores what this means for the future of the game in England.
Along with financial talk, the episode also recaps recent Premiership action, including key away wins for Tins' old teams Gloucester and Bath.
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01:00 - Hask's Bicep Busted!
04:00 - Alex Calwallader’s Rugby Years
07:00 - The Leonard Curtis Report Unveiled
11:00 - Hask’s Involvement
12:30 - Hask vs Brian Moore
20:00 - The Report: What Have They Found?
24:15 - What’s Next for the Clubs?
28:34 - Salary Cap Showdown: Don’t Raise It!
30:00 - Hask’s Radical Rugby Revolution!
39:20 - Hask Defends GB&R.
48:20 - Club Rugby: Is Amateurism the Future?
51:00 - The Blackeye Fund
52:16 - Premiership Rugby Review
01:07:51 - England’s New Coaches: Will They Deliver?
01:12:12 - Springboks Reign Supreme: Rugby Champs Again!
Season 5 is sponsored by Continental Tyres - กีฬา
Bums on seats, Ill be in London for the English v Wallabies game on 9th November and can’t access a seat unless its a corporate package how does that grow interest in the game.
@@patriciashooter9680 couldn’t agree more. What happens is the RFU issues most of the ticket allocation to lower level clubs inc grass roots clubs. These clubs then issue them to members. Typically the committees of these clubs (in many cases pre-professional era types) snap them up, and the players and fans are left fighting for the scraps. The issue is endemic - too many old farts who aren’t willing to make the required changes.
Those old farts just never go away
In South Africa, we have had to realise that our premier competition of the past, "The Currie Cup" is no longer our premium competition. The game has moved on from that and we have had to move with it.
Hask speaks so much logic when he speaks about Rugby is actually wild. Prem rugby need young blood in to manage their marketing, switch the game up and should learn from American sports clubs.
Also, for the love of god, switch ALL rugby to one subscription! I don't currently pay to way Rugby, but would if it was ONE singular package.
There is a fundamental problem with going to watch union. Half the time the ball is in the middle of a pile of players, and sat in the stands you've no idea what's going on.
I live in Brazil, on Disney + they have ESPN. i get all the games to watch from UK France NZ Aus SA all international and 7's tournaments on demand and live. Its brilliant.
@@GrimUpNorth_ytI didn’t realise League was doing any better! Keep your group hugs to yourselves
In North America we had "Setanta Sports" back in the day and it literally had everything. Why cant we have something like that again?
@@alexbarclay9615what are you on about? If you're going to bother to reply try and make it coherent.
Being someone that watches all club ruggers (Prem, Top 14, URC, Super and Japanese Top League when i can get it), the prem is by far the most entertaining. Isn't that your selling point? The french public pay millions to watch turgid home wins every weekend.
The RFU needs a massive reshuffle. More grass roots promotion. Get the game into the poorer areas. Generate more interest. More rugby characters on screen/media. Promote the game as a family friendly game available to all. Lower Twickenham tickets as well. They are ridiculous. Sweeney needs to go. He oversaw 3 clubs go under. More promotional bits into the north of England as well. I know it's league up there but if the union clubs got more exposure a northern fanbase may grow. Therefore more money for those clubs. There's a big gap in the Liverpool/Leeds area of the country that could be filled. I don't know the answers but maybe some food for thought here.....
The problem with your answer is that you are advocating spending more, and bringing in less. Promoting and growing the game comes with a financial cost. But you are also saying lower ticket prices, which is a giant source of income, used to spend on the grassroots game (and support the premiership). I agree, that would be great - but it is not financially realistic to spend more and make less, it would destroy the game.
I'm finding a lot of rugby fans moan about any change (not saying that you are). Look at the Allianz deal, or the lower tackle height (safer game = more play in schools). Every big move the RFU are making to change things gets hated on, yet people want change. And worse, people don't understand that the RFU don't have a surplus income of tens of millions a year. Look at their financial reports after COVID - it wiped them out. They couldn't step in and save private companies in the failed clubs because they didn't have the money, unless they look it away from the grassroots, or the England teams - and international rugby is the only proven part that makes money. Even now the RFU is looking at its third lot of staff redundancies in 4 years as broadcast deals get weaker (which is why they are all chasing as much money as they can).
Of course, worth pointing out that they have had very little government support. Quins, who regularly fill their stadium, couldn't even get approval to slightly increase capacity, which would have been a real boon to the club. At the same time that three clubs went, government gave 50 million to the LTA to build more tennis courts.
@@jakemiddleton5266 You are right but rugby needs to create more people that can relate to the game and thus be more willing to pay for tickets. That starts at grassroots...schools etc
Too many England games are played in Twickenham, which means no other stadiums benefit from the test matches. fan base in different parts of England don't get as hyped or exposure to the tests which boosts fans which boosts the hunger for rugby booking ticket sales. Look at South Africa every rugby championship test and Ireland test were in different stadiums meaning the whole country benefits, every staduim benefits every team from thos stadiums benefit and all the fans benifit.
You going to make up the difference between the £11 million a test match the RFU make from games at Twickenham and the considerably less they'll make playing the games elsewhere?
Twickenham, where's that? Do you mean the legendary Allianz Stadium 27b-6?
Rugby has lots of history, but not many fans. That's the unavoidable reality. Even at England games, how many in attendance are proper rugby fans? 10%? Nobody can magically change them numbers.
Well said. Up in Scotland we pack Murrayfield for internationals (These days anyway, I remember not so long ago when that wasn't the case) but our two pro teams stadiums have a combined capacity of under 18k. After that you get a few hundred people at club games. It just isn't that popular week in week out, but there is a huge casual fan base that comes out around 6 nations time and the autumn internationals. Truth is, these people float away and don't support the game year round.
Trouble is, we're chasing football. Football gets 2 games a week and there is no way players can manage that in Rugby. Twickenham has 1 tube line getting there and most people from outside London have to travel to Waterloo to get the main line there. I love rugby and have played it since I was 11 - I'm now 32 - but have never been to an international at Twickenham. The time to travel there plus the cost of tickets is prohibitive to say the least.
True, club rugby really struggles to get fans in. Watching premiership rugby is just completely pointless, tickets are too expensive for what it is. Champions cup needs to get the fans in.
@@laurencegoodacre8428 I think the biggest issue in england is the small pool of fans created by the small amount of schools that play it. Not enough money makers can relate to the game and therefore cough up for tickets when the time comes, whether close to home or not.
@@peterpearson1800 Nah, it's simpler than that imo, not many people are built physically or mentally to play rugby, takes a certain type of person, I for one used to hate it growing up (skinny kid), but somehow got into it as an adult in my early/mid 20's (as my aversion to pain decreased and I started weight lifting), in my circle of family and friends I literally only know TWO proper rugby fans. Most are into basketball, football or some other sport.
I did go in 1995 to speak to professional sports in the USA to report back to the Premiership owners I explained the basis of the salary cap. To cut a long story short the owners agreed that they would not be told on who they could sign and how much they would pay them. Ego lead
The hubris from the English clubs and this panel are so illuminating. English rugby has completely created this situation and for years were dismissive of any shared league. Now that the sharks are circling the boat they are talking about “letting the URF into the Premiership”. The English clubs have no bargaining power.
It would actually grow the game if promotion and relegation happened every year. People support their local clubs, each time a new club is promoted a new region of the country will become more interested in premiership rugby. the rules blocking promotion are short sighted protectionism
NRL is the model to follow,not too big just big enough.
Not the URC's job to bail out the Premiership. No one else should go down with that ship.
Urc is a mess though, never sustainable with all this travel , also it’s a poor league with 5/6 weak teams
@@danedwadd62With all due respect the weakest teams in the league are 1 Italian, who just beat Munster and 3 Welsh teams. If you want to absorb the Welsh teams knock yourselves out. We have the second biggest TV deal in Rugby Union and all the provinces are financially viable. We don't obviously travel to SA much but everyone is watching those games. It's a much better product than the Prem who as we have just heard, might only have 3 teams surviving to the end of this year or the next. Your ticket prices are appalling. 70 pounds for a seat to a mid season game is insane and most of ye aren't paying it.
@@danedwadd62think you should take a look at some of the URC statistics. Growth, growth and more growth. Premiership is mostly predictable. Falcons will likely fold or be relegated, Gloucester will be bottom half. Saracens, bath, Northampton will be pushing
URC = Best league
@@danedwadd62 No the URC is a stable, growing league that is controlled by the unions and managed properly. Sure it has issues i.e. travel but that's not so much of an issue and hasn't had a significant impact on audiences. The URC has one of the biggest TV deals and has clubs clambering to be involved. I want the Prem. to be successful as rugby benefits but honestly I would get rid of all the executives running english rugby, whether its the Prem. or RFU english rugby is run by idiots...it was these same idiots that have effectively ruined the Heineken Cup. I dont want english owners near the URC...they can't run a tap.
Guys. We enjoy GBR and your commentary on the game.
Couple of observations;
Grass roots club rugby is in decline with clubs losing players and adult teams as well as reduced numbers coming through minis and junior rugby.
The game should inspire people to want to play and get involved.
You tend to focus just on the premiership, how about looking at the championship teams.
They are I would suggest are under funded by the RFU and would benefit from some coverage to increase income.
And yet Haskel was the 1st to criticise LRZ for trying to do things differently....this was before the NFL move
Look at the NRL and the AFL in Australia if you want to see how a historic club competition can be modernised to suit the current commercial environment. They're both swimming in money. What they did was realise nobody was gonna survive protecting their own patch. They were willing to sacrifice to grow the pie. And look at the pie now. I wouldn't be surprised if the NRL pushes Rugby, not just out of Australia, but out of the entire South Pacific if they keep going the way they're going. A good product, professionally run, that knows what the fans want and gives it to them.
Couple of observations, Brian Moore writes the article not the headline, that is is headliner writers role which explains the huge discrepancy between so many articles and their headlines. Secondly, Hash describes splitting the teams away from their traditional heartlands to deliver a new exciting product - isn't that what has happened in Wales which has been a disaster. Ireland has done extremely well using this model but they don't have the historic rivalry at club level, i.e., Bristol, Bath and Gloucester or Leicester / Northampton. The rival is more province related which they have tapped into. Sadly, easy to say what is wrong, not so easy to solve. Though the prem product for the past two years has been excellent so there must be an answer....
Good points. Provinces have more historical roots, and the only English equivalent to the extant clubs would be the counties ?........Wasps moving from their traditional north London base was the beginning of the end for them. Not helped by their captain being the surveyor who told them they would never get planning permission for residential development of their old ground......... move to QPR then Adams Park, where they were only keeping 20p of every £ spent there at a rugby game.
Bluntly put, the players must stop listening to their agents so much, and clubs must be prepared to let players leave if they don't feel the pay demand is justified. Tell them - "We have "X" to spend on salaries, medical care, etc.... We will not breach this for anyone. Rugby is not that popular, it is a very ;poor relation to football, so it will not pay the money you are looking for", and be prepared to stand by it.
It’s basically Supply and Demand model in Irish Rugby led by Leinster that should be the Benchmark!!!
einster have intelligently invested resources creating partnerships with schools, universities, and clubs to build the infrastructure to develop the game and consistently growing talent over the long term. The result is the academy producing massive elite players, Leinster can sell out Croke Park now for league games with Munster, it’s a Global Brand now in Sport, with a budget over 17 million on players salary!!
Many English and French clubs have made different choices, and that's up to them, but I know which business model makes more sense to me.
Your biggest derby game bath vs lec gets less than 15k, while leinster v munsters been moved to croker and has 65k+ tickets sold already
For me the biggest problem is ticket prices, which (at least at the half hour in mark) they haven't mentioned. Leinster v Munster tickets seem to be starting at 18 euro for an adult. I bought standing tickets last month for the upcoming Tigers v Saints game and they were £36. To see Saracens v Leicester at the end of the month would be over £40 for the worst seats in the ground so I won't be going. The prem ticket prices are crazy and really make it a struggle for anyone but the wealthy or die hard fans. I don't think there's a massive lack of interest in the premiership, its just very inaccessible due to high prices (both to attend, or watch on tv)
Ah yeah cheap standing are 18 there is varuous pricing levels 18,40,65 and 100 are the levels a dynamic pricing structuce helps alot
All about ticket prices mate for me to take the Mrs to a game at the rec in a half decent seat (average view) and get a burger and a pint each is like £180 it’s ridiculous.
As I've said in a recent telegraph post, I love watching the prem (Saints my local) but I am a Bedford Blues supporter at heart down in the championship, which really has taken a financial hit of late, which is another conversation around the RFU.
Unfortunately for the majority, sport (primarily football and rugby) is over priced and not affordable especially when (again) the majority prefer to pay a high premium to watch everything on Sky,BT,Prime et al - and I'm one of them!
@@herb2078 Not that I'm defending that amount (which is scandalous), but football prices are even higher and they sell out many and much bigger grounds every week. It comes down to demand, there isn't enough. Rugby has to increase that demand, dropping prices (especially for children to get them hooked on the sport) is a way to do that. Get more locals coming to games, bringing their children along because it's cheap and an enjoyable time. It's really basic stuff, but in my humble opinion that's where rugby needs to start.
A good start would be to drop the ticket prices. £70+ for a sub 2 hour game of rugby and overpriced beers, is just encouraging people to stay at home. It’s not got the same fan base as soccer, and needs to encourage families and new fans out to the stadiums if they want to fill them.
When you look at the attendances of Prem Rugby it sits somewhere near the top of a English Football League 1 team, where salaries average £360k per year, ,play 22 games per year as well as some cup games and have recently as the EFL group just signed a £900m TV deal.
Would be nice to see more Rugby on free to air TV, instead of going with TNT
I actually agree we James, no one knows who runs the game, there are far too many people blocking it from growing and bleeding it dry. All of it needs to be unified under one owner/ director who makes the financial decisions and can work on fixing the foundations. Get the prem sustainable, pump the money into grass roots.
One of the main issues is the financial viability , normally being only those who play and families who then leave but why , it is not just playing the clubs must widen the purposes in allied interests to keep the family base committed?
TV rights has been the go too point for RFU Clubs , the European Professional Cub Rugby organisation was moved from Dublin to Geneva and the format of the competition changed . The English clubs said following this TV rights and increased sponsorship would bring substantial amounts of money to the competing clubs , did it happen , don't think so .
What about a protected league like the nfl with a rugby school in each county where the best are selected and a draft style selection process. This way you could have a Lancashire team from the schools and a Lancashire team from the clubs in the draft when they are 18 and 21 to save on development costs. Each premiership club could be linked to a national 1 side as a second team?
The RFU have forgotten about the 80/20 Principle of business and like most businesses have adopted the 80/20 habit.
They have focused so much on their Inclusive Policy since 2010, that registered male players have gone from 385k down to over 100k+ combined registered male & female players.
What was Tinds saying in reference to the 800mil? Did the RFU turn down the opportunity to join a UK/Ireland League?
No the 800mil was the offer from Qatar to host the new Nations Championship competition for 8 years in Qatar.
Being an American I think rugby should adopt the NFL financial model. Sharing profits and helping support the struggling clubs.
No relegation in NFL
Bazillions being shared
No international League that sits above it for big money 😊
The only thing with that is that American Football is great at generating money at the high school and college level (mainly self sufficient)..
Rugby only makes money at international level and that money then has to be spread down all the way to grass roots or you die from the bottom up.
If the players took 50% there is no way the rest of the system could survive never mind thrive.
@@colingibson5966 the big problem is that the current system is not working. Rugby will have to think outside the current box. I don't think a small tweek here and there will fix it.
@@LanceMan yeah I think rugby missed the boat going professional, the major American sports, football(soccer), and golf were all professional in the early 1900s, rugby was around as long if not longer but very late going pro.
Only major sport I can think of that has made it late in professionalism is UFC and even those athletes don't get paid anything like the other sports do.
The IRFU did that approach in Ireland where the money made through the international game is what funds the 4 Irish provinces who are fully owned by the IRFU to make it sustainable. The problem is the English clubs has spent 20+ years lambasting that approach, the private English clubs have stripped as much power away from the RFU as possible so they would never consent to giving power back to a central governing body.
A negative balance sheet doesn't necessarily mean they are bust......as long as you have someone behind the numbers guaranteeing the liabilities. Most Premiership football clubs are MASSIVELY insolvent on a balance sheet.....not always about the numbers, however numerous businesses have carried on year after year, as long as they turn cash and cashflow over and pay liabilities when due....still makes you wonder if the current model is working....?
If you want full stadiums, stop selling sears for £70
I’m really interested in the comments made in this podcast, where the same comments were made to The Aotearoa Rugby Pod. They were accused of being negative as well. The problem is that there are many negative people out there, who need to understand how you need to analyse the game to get a positive view which both panels do in their analysis.
The reality is that Rugby Union in the UK club level just has not got the following of fan support. We are a football following nation. The Premiership is followed all over the world.
We have many other sports that have the same issue. They have stayed amateur.
Want to know how make a small fortune in English professional rugby? - Start with a large one.
Make it a summer sport, and you will get more people to play. You are competing against football in the winter. It's a no-brainer.
At first I thought what a silly comment but to be honest it’s actually not a bad shout at all!! Kids will play more through schools, more attendances at stadiums and viewing on tv. Something Iv not heard before but good idea
But rugby is played all summer. The off season is almost none existent
Sorry, hard disagree. The ground is hard in summer, hurts a lot more so kids will all stop playing. And as fan it’ll kill my ability to watch the game- I do stuff in the summer, I’m at the beach, I’m having a BBQ, I’m on holiday; rugby flourishes in my life during the winter because there’s bugger-all else going on.
@@jymbeau3633 kids do just fine in South Africa and Australia mate with hard ground I’m sure they’d survive okay. But your missing the point the vast majority of sports fans still want to watch live sport in the summer instead of competing with giants like football and always coming off second best to the point the sport is dying.
@@herb2078 I agree the problem is the overwhelming dominance football has in the culture. I’m forced to admit that I love rugby, in part, just because it gives me something to do in the winter. I find football unwatchable, I’m aware this puts me in the minority. I go to live rugby games, watch on TV, coach and still occasionally play; but if it moved to summer I’d stop a lot of that. In winter it competes with football. In summer it competes with literally everything else. I think Rugby dies quicker as a summer sport than as a winter one.
Hasks solution is what happened in Wales in 2004. It generated short term success by producing better players through a shiny new academy system but the teams mostly play in front of empty stadiums. The diehard fans from the traditional clubs have died or lost interest and new generations don't feel part of any of it. No affiliation to a region because their fathers never took them, no interest in watching Ponty, Ebbw, Neath etc. because there are no stars. If you go down this route it has to be brand new without any affiliation to traditional clubs and you'll need at least a decade of free kids ticket allocations.
You guys really have to sort your shit out, is the prem the new Super Rugby?
Although not as popular worldwide as URC the super rugby in terms of performance and statistics for a whole season, still out does URC,14, Japan One, Premiership. Despite having more teams and a whole lot more games played. The stats are practically the same if not less than super.
I live around the corner from Twickenham stadium. My son has gone to school in this area his whole school life . Not once have the RFU sent some inspirational guys in to talk about rugby to the kids. And the state schools don’t play rugby in this area. If we are supposed to be rugby heartland i don’t know what to think. The RFU have done zero to further the game and certainly did not capitalise at all on the huge opportunity in 2003 when England won the RWC. There should have been a huge marketing drive, trophy tours across the country and all that. Haskell is right it’s an old boys club lead by people with little connection or understanding about how to drive passion for the sport amongst the youth
That's crazy, in south Africa we always get former pros to have talks at assembly.
Paying players too much. Who'd have thought that would end up being a problem.
Best comment 👍
Didn't they have the exact same conversationa couple of years ago when they interviewed Eddie hearn?
The sad truth is that the wider public see that you can't polish a turd. But, you can inject realism into the financial thinking.
Munster v Leinster in URC, Croke park on the 12th October: 82,000 crowd
Man city v Liverpool also...plus Newcastle v Sunderland and Tottenham v arsenal and man city v Chelsea on the same day...... fact is....rugby is not important in England.....as a welsh lad growing up in a working class london satellite town....day 1 at high school I was the only one who knew the rules.....
To be fair, it's highly likely that Quins v Leicester at Twickenham on 28th December will also have 82,000 in attendance
Also, just do stuff that engages kids, like collectable cards or sticker books etc. Like where's the rugby magazine for kids? Theres barely anything for adults...
One of the biggest changes needed to the game in England is to get rid of the Premiership Shares that allow a small number of clubs to protect their own interests at the expense of the rugby pyramid as a whole. The league needs to be run independently of the clubs and in the best interests of the competition, not the 12 share owners.
I used to watch loads of live club rugby when it was all on Sky. Since it has become fragmented across multiple broadcasters I dont bother.
I'm in the process of transitioning my club to Touch and Wheelchair rugby. The interest in senior rugby isn't anywhere near what it was and seems unlikely to change. You have to adapt to survive.
The problem with Michigan is that they went to other games and did it. If you did it at the current game that's ok, but you can't steal signals the way they did it. They have solved this is using radios now like the NFL.
Revenues will always be down when the country is trying to prioritize it financial ability , but the community support should not , unless you isolate its access and have had 14 years of doing that .
Everything saud is do true! We dont promote rugby in this country enough
Franchise Rugby is not the solution.
The Welsh Regions are franchises and that has failed.
Wasps moving to Wycombe and then Coventry were operating like a franchise and that didn't work.
How about you have a regular segment where fans can propose one practical way to save the game. 😉
On the whole, rugby union is not in a good place financially. The URC is a spectacular success, but you sense the bubble will burst further down the line. It's all about making sure that this is as slow a process as possible.
The bubble will burst if the Premiership clubs join the URC, at the expense of S.A. and Italian clubs, as the Premierships clubs are suggesting. This is a non starter. The S.A. clubs have brought a much needed boost, and everyone is benefitting, especially the Irish. there have been 3 different league winners from 3 different countries since they joined.
They need to sort out the mess that is travel for the Saffas, but that's down to the sponsorship deal with Qatar Airlines and the madness of HAVING to travel via Doha? instead of direct like all other teams can when travelling to S.A.
@@solvableknave9141 Good point. Especially the travel factor. It won't be long before this is sorted. It is that easy a solution. I just never thought it would be possible that England - the richest of the major rugby nations - could be going through this. It's unfathomable.
@@LockedDownSpectator I agree. It's absolutely bonkers that it's gotten to this point. Personally, I think the whole root of the issue stems from a belief that the owners / Premiership Rugby, and to some extent the RFU, thought they could do to rugby what The Premiership did to football (and maybe trying to copy the success of the Top 14, which is probably the best league, on paper. Though I may be a little biased towards the URC) , and for years it's been proven that it's just not happening.
Look at the URC. How many guises has it gone through over the years before getting to where it is now? Celtic League / Magners League / Pro 12 / Pro 14 / URC. Some hard times in there. A whole new setup is required for English rugby unfortunately. The national team went through a few hard years and look at them now. I think the win against Ireland in the 6 nations last year? was the turning point. They played unbelievable that day. Just like the 6 Nations / International Rugby needs a strong England, European Rugby needs strong English clubs. But they need to sort a lot of stuff out. It's probably going to be a few hard years before it happens though.
@@LockedDownSpectatorEngland aren't the richest and haven't been for some time now.
The idea we have to look as far as the NFL, UFC or F1 to fix the state of the league when the most successful sports league in the world is on our doorstep is ridiculous …
There's a huge amount of sense spoken here. The model is fundamentally broken and everything right now is patchwork. The franchise model works, it's proven. Yes history, blah blah blah... but the game has got to change. Keep doing the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results. The RFU leadership team / board need to go as well. Heads in the sand. Keep the history and heritage in an amateur / semi-pro format below the premiership. But at the top end, franchise is the way forward. And yes, fundamentals of business, don't spend more than you earn. Fucking basics.
Most sports run from a community basis in popularity and with it a wider interest . If you limit Rugby to an elitist community you will limit the financial benefits and its following . This starts with the number of clubs and their control coming from often individual control often .
An official interest in and by ALL schools will open that control , perhaps the educational system isolates this interest by superior attitude to an extent and this does not help .The sport needs a much bigger sound base away from the current long term status by official guidance in the real needs not a repetitive isolated elitism driven by a few and hence the game only appeals to a few ?. Control loss or narrow minded decision making by a few does not help the game at any level . Open the doors and release the ties including rules and unnecessary unclear over complicated regulatory rules . Money cannot be spent without a wider accessible popularity , sadly lacking by choice of a few who will not change .
ok wait a minute, the issue seems to be
1. poor revenues as people aren't watching the game
2. high costs as player salaries are super high
I think 2 is sorting itself out, isn't it?
Top players go to france where they can get paid what they're worth. 1-2 per team stay here. Kids get bled in to fill the gap, plus players from Wales as they collapse even further. obviously don't raise the salary cap, no one can afford it
Revenue depends on marketing. making it one subscription could help. but it's also coordination and timing. the french structure the games so that fans can watch or be at their matches. also their games are fun days out, bbqs etc
great show men
actually ridiculous from Brian moore, this podcast has done so many conversations on how to fix the game over the years and suggested so many solutions.
They are even thinking about doing a unified British league which was this podcasts idea years ago
Use to play rugby, watch the games and knew the players. Watched a 6 narions game last year and was bored stupid. Game is gone for 90% of the public. Still a posh game for public school boys.
What would you do to solve English club rugby's financial troubles?
Have all 10 clubs from the Prem and all 12 from the Championship apply to join the URC as individual members, drop the nonsense about discarding the Saffas and Italians and pitch a setup of a three tier promotion/relegation system. URC Tier 1 consisting of the top 12 teams, URC Tier 2 consisting of the next 12, and the final URC Tier 3 consisting of 14 currently, copying the Top 14 model as those players can probably play more due to not being selected much for international duty. The new TV deal should include all three tiers with at least 33% going to tier 2 sort of like France has, 50% going to Tier 1 and the remainder going to Tier 3 as they will be mostly developmental clubs that will pay wages which would be obviously modest compared to Tier 1 and 2, but enough to keep them more comfortable than earning the median salary that they could earn in any of the participating 6 nations. Might need some tweaking but best I can think of offhand.
Restrict the number of foreign players to allow home grown talent to thrive and have a future. As a bonus it will be cheaper
It has to be a long term plan as there is no quick fix here. Rugby has to be marketed to the masses and not just the elite in this country. I play now but only after finding the game at 18 as my state school never played it. Getting the game into state schools will build a fan base from a young age, leading to more bums on seats in the ground and more demand on TV. Companies will follow the numbers and increase the money on offer regarding advertising within the ground and on TV. Football in this country already has a pipeline of fans as the game is played every lunchtime in almost every school. A bonus to getting the game into more schools is not missing out on talented players who have the physical attributes to play the game but have never been exposed to it. There is no quick fix and rugby needs to think 10 to 15 years down the line.
Rugby is steeped in tradition and tribalism for want of a better word. Nobody likes change, however the game needs to move away from this, be bold. How? I dont have a clue!!!!. Lets not forget that it is not only the owners who finance the game but also the paying fans. If you dont put bums on seats then the financial support from the owners is nowhere near enough. There is a lot of talk about the NFL model, yet the NFL does not have international matches, age old tournaments 6N etc and so on. Although Rugby is now a professional it can be argued that it is handled amateurishly IMO. Still though, its still the best team sport in the world with unapparelled values and gamesmanship on the field of play.
It will mean that the URC dilutes their profits. Is it wise?
Rugby hasn’t got the tribalism of other sports, that’s why it isn’t as marketable
Why isn't the Premiership following the Top14 model, it's proven to be successful, and you don't sacrifice your club system. Also RFU should the international restrictions and allow players like Courtney Lawes and Farrell to play in France and play for England
Lot of hot air here could be summarized in 10 mins really😮
The problem can be summarised in 10 mins, but the discussion was mostly about possible solutions. What's yours?
The older generation have chewed up and spat out the sport, leaving nothing for the younger generations. Start introducing an age ban on club involvement, they have had their opportunity and fcked it up massively.
So true! Bill Beaumont is a perfect eg
The whole structure of rugby is wrong in England - not enough schools play it, not enough local clubs etc. Therefore, you will never have enough spectators and players. Serious thought needs to be given to this problem.
Revenues will always be down when the country is trying to prioritize it financial ability , but the community support should not , unless you isolate its access and have had 14 years of doing that . honesty means change but , in a positive manner before it is to late , housekeeping ?
Old school values permeate from top to bottom. You need bigger stadiums to push up numbers watching will lead to more people playing which will lead to more emotional and intellectual investment in the game in the future which will lead to genuine change.
You only need bigger stadiums if the demand is greater than the current capacity which is simply not true for most clubs for most games. For a couple of big games in the season sure but not for the vast majority of games. This is what happened with the Welsh regions, many of them are overpaying big money for bigger stadiums that is rarely justifying the costs. The Ospreys have chosen to move to a smaller stadium to address this which is a smart move going forward.
@@maguined and for me this is wrong. Look at the final. Full twickenham. If clubs have big stadiums they are then forced to find ways to fill them be creative. get bums on seats. How about womens games on same day as mens? or a 7s match. or even a 10 man game or a game where teams have to meet some new rules to trial out and find ways to make the game more entertaining. this works really well in the Hundred encouraging more families to come and makes for far better atmosphere; not only combingin teams but also playing around with the format
@@simonwedgewood2965 As I said some key big games like a final or a knockout game or local derby will fill out but for the other 15+ games of the year it will not and so you are only increasing costs for bigger stadiums without getting increased revenue since you are not filling it. Your statement that if a club has a big stadium they are forced to fill it simply does not stand up to the scrutiny and shackles rugby clubs with large debts from building big stadiums they simply do not fill. The Welsh tried "if you build it they will come" and it was an unmitigated disaster. The Ospreys had a 20k stadium for almost 20 years and are downsizing to an 8k stadium because it makes more financial sense. The one off big games can always be moved to a bigger stadium for those increased revenues. Judgement Day where all 4 Welsh Clubs play in two derby games in the one stadium on the same day is a great one off event and makes sense in the big stadium but for most of the regular season games smaller stadiums the meet the demand is better than big empty stadiums.
@@simonwedgewood2965could play 10s in the summer tbf
The problem with rugby is the game itself. Use to be 40mins to watch a 40min half of rugby. Now it takes over a hour with players standing around while the ref tries to figure out what’s going on, not surprised there isn’t the market out there anymore. Stopped going to live games couple of years ago and only need to watch about 10mins on TV on a Saturday to realise I don’t miss it.
NFL is way more start stop and doesn’t have the issues that rugby does.
Players' salaries, coupled with their agents "looking after their client". The major outgoing. Cut and cap that according to your means, but you then probably have the superstars walking. Then you have to tally that with the fact that the clubs produce the players for the RFU to fill Twickenham.
Rugby league
Seems like a "just do more" argument like Brian Moore is railing about. The clubs are going bust because players want to be paid, France has the income and millionaire backers, broke the market, and we put in a salary cap made the admin brutally petty and tight and the clubs completely messed it up.
Better podcast this week, much improved talking about finances of the game than that clown from LIV Golf who seemed ignorant at best that it isn't just sport washing. I'm still shocked by that episode and it was a hard listen
I think the problem that sticks me is, the product needs to hit a wider audience. It needs to look cleaner. It needs to not be self deprecating. We need to say to the officials give a penalty try and no yellow card. Also when the TMO comes it stands no mothers meeting. After all he is a professional referee ?
We also remove rest and dead time. What would you change, let’s face it any mum watching the sport for the first time would they want to let their child play the game ?
It is not about bailing out it is about to finaly come down to earth: regional rugby is the only way meaning less pro players so less pro teams meaning one Uk rehional competition: 4 welsh 6 englush 2 scotish and 4 irish plus 4 SA and 2 italy so 2 x11 teams with 10 games and 5 extra plus top 8 play off . Adding 8 EC and you have a 24 games season around
Most rugby game highlights, it's within the 10 yard line with forwards driving ball over the line. Boring as hell.
URC = Best league
Marketing and viewership wise? Yeah, performance wise? It's highly overrated
@@Thelasttrywins Jealous aintcha? URC is the future in Europe.
Laughing in TOP14 and NRL 😂😭
@pre-dawnraid9037 mate, viewership yeah, I'm jealous you guys have a larger populace than us, but that's it....super rugby outperforms everyone, still. Despite having financial and viewership issues
@@Thelasttrywins URC = Beast League
The problem is that the premiership is very boring to watch. The brand of rugby is not exciting and the crowds are a reflection of that as well. 0 passion, 0 energy. More atmosphere in a library than some of these stadiums.
The Lions are gonna pull their pants down next year and it’s “yes daddy” time
Problem with England rugby is no investment in grassroots. If rugby clubs were cheaper (subsidised) , more parents would get their kids to join. And it's a win for England rugby, bigger pool of players being developed, and the ones that don't go on to play professional (majority) becomes lifelong supporters of the game, there by investing money in the game. Look at south Africa, rugby is free at most schools, not just the fee paying ones, creative a massive supporter base. I've just signed my 7yr old up at his first club, club fees,and kit comes to around £350 for a year. Then add travel,tours etc.Not viable for most
Let them go bust. Let the RFU buy 8 of them. Form 2 conferences. Pray that stabslises enough to join the URC. What is best is what is best for the international game.
Bath, Bristol, Exiter, Glouster
Leister, Northampton, saracens, Quins
Do not try and form new clubs!
The primacy of the international game is what's ruining Rugby. Even Cricket had to grow up and realize the real money is in domestic club/franchise leagues. Name me a single top level pro sport where the international game is the driving force? I'll wait...
@adtastic1533 rugby, cycling, skiing, sailing, most amateur sports where the only commercially viable vehicle is the Olympics. Completely agree in terms of leagues of franchised teams. But that is not where rugby is today. The winning model is currently a highbrid international + franchise structure.
One of the biggest sports show in the world?????
Just accepted that people in England don't care about rugby, you will never be as popular as football
While I do agree something has to change, we need to stop insisting we change the game to be more like the NFL, or follow what they did in Cricket etc etc. We don't need new flashy variations of the game, look at what happened with Rugby-X. An American Football match is more stop-start and has just as many nuanced rules and yet it succeeds. Rugby is not the NFL, and it never will be. But if we are concerned with people understanding Rugby and not getting bored, let us not dumb it down or completely change it but instead support access to the game, particularly at a young age. This is not a panacea, but it will certainly help.
Forward thinking in rugby league
Pretty ironic when ireland, scotland and Wales wanted a British league the English told them to do one. Now they're here cap in hand.....to be fair though British League would be awesome
Great podcast! Keep it coming
The sport needs to pay affordable wages which means cut expenses and open up to clubs like mine Cornish Pirates.
International matches need to be a set times and the leagues stop whilst Internationals play out. People are attracted by the superstars.
Mike Tindal needs to but together a consortium with Haskell ,,, Paul doran Jones and payno to buy Gloucester, then turn them into a club those supporters deserve, 20,000 are there week in week out , the potential is there . I think it's time
Well if it's good money being thrown after bad you're worried about you could take a long hard look at the women's game. How much cash is being siphoned off from the game to fund a sport practically no one watches nor cares about.
Speaking as an Irishman without any stake in the game here. I would lay the blame solely at Mark McCafferty's door. This downturn started in 2014 when the ERC was replaced by EPCR. Eventually a British and Irish league will happen. It's the most lucrative and logical solution.
Elephant in the room,not that many people will ever want to watch club rugby every week and the game will never be an NFL.
Australian rugby is under the shame pressures poor marketing not growing the game through the youth
Aus & England followed the same logic. No real development or marketing. They thought they could just import players. Could argue that they were "asset stripped" on purpose.
Rugby needs less games and clubs need to divide from international level. Players get contracted from club to international at the end of the season and can only move down not back up either due to form or injury, players may be called to go from club up to international level once per season and may return down again once but thats it.
Club rugby runs for 12-14 weeks from Mid May until the end of August, then international starts from September until end of october. Starts again in February for 6 nations ends mid march.
From a Saffa, Heskell only talks sense. Being pragmatic won't work.
Rugby needs businessmen to take hold not ex rugby players or old boys .
I think sport as a whole is going to start declining as kids spend more and more time online. I am only 28 so part of the “playstation generation” but myself and my friendship group were playing football every day after school and all through the summer holidays with every football pitch packed. Unfortunately this just doesn’t seem to be a thing anymore and that is football the biggest and most popular sport in the world so unfortunately I really do fear for professional rugby in this country.
Shouls the hard decison be made to trim the Prem and go in with the 10 UK franchises plus 8 from the Eng Prem and play 17 or so games. This may bring in more fans for country interests ie Eng club v Irish club etc.? This may upset the Italians and Bok clubs but English and Welsh clubs lose vast sums of money whilst Scot clubs arn't much better and the Irish provinces seem to be the only ones with truely World class players feeding in to a top International team. Keep Bok and Italian teams and play in two equal divisions with play offs? The Prem product is not good enough compared to Boks and NZ clubs. Are English Prem players paid what they are truly worth? How many are world class? No front rows would get in to two World class Internaltional teams. Any second rows better than Retallick and best three Boks? Back rowers look good. English backs - I think not.
maybe someone needs to sell to Ryan Reynolds who has turned around a tier 3 soccer team.
Gail the snail!
Haskell has got sound ideas
Not really, his idea sounds nice because he assumes everything will go well and does not address the realities of how it gets implemented. Is he talking about just within the confines of England? So basically he wants England to adopt the centrally controlled approach like IRFU and SRU do. The Prem clubs have spent decades stripping as much power and control away from the RFU as possible so asking them to all voluntarily gives that power and control back to a centrally controlled body would be extremely difficult especially considering the large disparity in debt some clubs have gone into. If there is a debt buyout can this new centrally controlled entity afford to pay it? If there is no debt buyout why would the clubs in huge debts agree to the new system?
Rugby has so many more positives than soccer. Are footballers managing rugby???
If you copied the IRFU model of paying back the tax players earned at the end of their career provided they stayed in the Prem during their prime, you could lower the salaries and then charge less for the tickets. A seat to a match in Ireland costs about 50 euro for an average game. In England its about 80. During these times most people with common sense dont have extra money to waste.
That is not an IRFU model, that is an Irish government tax policy aimed to help sport and arts. The IRFU does not refund tax, the government does.
@@maguined Apologies, you're correct. I should have stated government policy.
It also helps that the provincial ticket prices are affordable for a seat and the champions cup game it’ll cost you may be €20
@@ciaranbrk You mean an extra €20 yeah?
@@MurphysisbetterthanGuinness no I've been to leinster matches the tickets are 20-25 quid I had a season ticket last year 315 for all the home matches except home QF and SF champions cup games.
Gallagher as i know say its the cheapest ad revenue for them. Their US owners are astounded at how cheap even for a dedicated room for their employees for all games. RFU sold low ther too! What a gormless bunch of idiots is RFU. ALso rugby sharing games across nu,erous TV stations. France has 1 TV channel. FR1 & 2 cover local teams such is the appetite. UK could do this but don't effectively