Vertical Mill Tutorial 2 : Setup
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2019
- This is Mill Skills, a multi-part series to help you learn basic machine shop work. Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
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🤦♂️ Dammit Quinn, every time i think i have my metric / imperial equivalent chart up to date you throw in a new variable... how many skitchens in a smidge? and will this mean adjusting how many bee's d#cks in a poofteenth?
I'm a few years off getting a mill but have just started restoration of my 40's era Aussie made lathe, should involve lots of beer and choice swearwords 😁
The easy way to remember is that there are 130 skitchens in a rod, and 420 smidges in a naval chain (not to be confused with a furlong, a common error). I hope that helps!
Of course.. i could never fathom why knot that my bushells and scores never equalled a stadia.
⚙️😺 and happy Apollo day
@@Blondihacks those are imperial skitchens, though. A metric skitchen is 1/100 of a skosh.
I'm still using the skosh. Just a skosh is usually too much. And then you have to come back a skosh... My skosh micrometer is only accurate to (wait for it...) a skosh.
Along with Mr. Pete and Abom, This Old Tony, Oxtool, and a lot more... BTW, I really like your videos even though I'm Bald not Blonde. Keep up the good work
So, a rod is 5.0292 meters. That makes a skitchen 38.66 mm (or 1.523"). That seems quite a large amount to loosen a bolt... But hey, I'm not that experienced a machinist, and I''m only using a lathe - I managed to make it do some milling too, but it's tough - easy to make it shake quite a bit... :(
Also, I grew up with metric, so I have to convert everything to metric. I kinda know that a though is couple of hundreds of a millimeter, but when something several dozen thou - say 67 of them, that's 1.7mm, but I need a calculator to figure that out. And it gets worse for bigger sizes. I do know some of the fractions, such as 1/8" or 3/4", and of course, I can convert something like 125 thou to 1/8. But then someone says 27/64 and mixes that with thousands, and I'm definitely grabbing the calculator again...
Blondihacks, I must say,that out of the hundreds of machinist tutorials that I've watched on youtube,You are by far the best teacher hands down. You are extremely skilled in explaining things so people like myself can understand. You are a very gifted teacher and a natural. Thank you very much for all the quality tutorials. 👍👍
We Canadians have grown comfortable with our M-perial system :)
Thanks for sharing your knowledge Quinn.
Cheers
M-perial- I like that! 😁🇨🇦
Thanks for the tip on using a parallel. Makes the process even more precise
Currently taking my first semester in a welding program. Basic Tool Technology is one of the required classes, I found your videos and have so far learned much more than in class. Thank you for being on the internet, watching your videos is making that class fun despite the chap who leaves his key in the chuck or my partner who’s been grabbing aluminum chips from the part while the lathe is running.
Thank you for watching and for the kind words! ☺️
You Canadians and your metric inches and fancy machinists jargon.
Good video as always.
I have watched mrpete222 and Abom79 for years and have gotten a TON (U.S. ton, not Canadian thank you) of information from them. And of course Abom turned me on to you. Thanks Adam and Tubalcain!
Thanks and Meow to Sprocket.
Discovered your channel last week by virtue of Project Egress. Very much enjoying the lathe series. I've no intention of getting into machining, but I like learning about this stuff. Thanks!
Excellent! Welcome to my little channel!
How did I fell so much in love with the metal in few weeks... Jeez. Never thought I would get goosebumps because of something that cuts metal. Super useful videos. Gonna learn my mill.
Quinn, Thanks for this series. I ordered my mill yesterday with DRO and power lift. I’m So excited!
Quinn... thank you for sharing mr. Pete's hack with the parallel ! And thanks for the video👍🤙
Short and sweet but straight to the point. thanks for sharing, I must have missed Tubalcains video on using a parallel.
-2:50 time.
I think a "space ship factory" would be lucky to have you! I'd rather build space ships than heart valves. I'm sure glad I found your channel , love the videos!!
Thanks for the tips on using the parallel to indicate the vise...going watch the Mr. Pete video.
This retired Mountie salutes you Quinn. I love your videos. You make us proud.
🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
Quinn, you seriously have no idea how much of a help you've been. I just got my first mill, the PM-25MV like you have. I couldnt find any videos that addressed the issues I wanted the answers to specifically to my mill such as the tramming a mill without a nod. These videos have so far been exactly designed for me! Thank you!
After 40 years of machining I like to indicate the vise by eye using the tee nut slot on table as reference. One eye close does the trick , a little tap here and there u are done. Old school baby
Hey Quinn, put about a 3" downward leg on the end of your tramming tool and you should be able to tram without removing your vise, thus saving a lot of emotional distress. 😁
Thank you for the help! I just used my magnetic base dial indicator. I took the base off and put the it in my collet. Worked wonders
This is a fantastic series. Surprised I haven’t come across this before ! Than you Quin.
Just getting started and happy to find competent instruction with an engaging presentation. Thank you.
My boss at a small architectural fab shop, set me up on the mill one day. Never used one before. I'm thinking it's just a drill press with a moveable bed. Took it slow, and did ok. FF a couple years I was machining a 'proof of concept' back gauge for our punch press. Boss liked it, so it turned into gauges for all machines. Now I'm the shop "machinist', (in quotes, because I don't need to be super precise.).
Love the videos, you make it so easy.
Hi Quinn,
I've been bingeing your videos during the holidays to get ideas to help me at work where I use older lathes and knee mills. Nice work! One thing I've done to the vices on all 3 mills is to tap the bottom of the vice near the mounting slot in that groove and machine keys with counter bores in them that fit into the table's slot so it ends up only a few thou out that can then be easily dialed in.
I run a DTI up and down the quill for vertical alignment and a parallel in the vice and run a DTI across that for horizontal alignment.
Thank you for the explanation on dialing in the vise. I have been doing something very similar but hadn't thought about the why's. Now I have a good idea on how to get the vise aligned. Thank you! :) Stay warm.
Wow that Arc explanation on indicating the vise was amazing.
Great instructional video Quinn. Learning new things from you all the time
Love your videos, Quinn. I just want to put in my 2 cents worth on tramming the head to help others.
Just to reinforce what was mentioned in other comments, the shape and angle(s) of the DTI holding arm do not matter. Also, as long as the mill is somewhat level, the flexing of the arm will be equal on both sides so it will cancel out. What matters is that the distance of the DTI tip from the spindle center is the same at both data points. How the DTI is held is irrelevant.
Regarding the choice of data points used for tramming in the X-Z plane:
As long as the head is not significantly off in the Nod direction, using approximately symmetrical points on the +X and -X sides of the spindle will suffice. As you said, the further away from the spindle, the greater the possible accuracy. However, if the head is off in the Nod direction at all, the two data points must have the same Y position on the table. Best to be in line with the spindle left and right to eliminate any possible error introduced by the Nod being off, even if your mill does not adjust in the Nod direction. Choosing diagonally opposing data points allows any Nod error to affect the readings for tramming the head in the X-Y plane. In other words, NEVER use diagonal points for tramming in any direction.
Keep up the great work!
Great video Quinn. Keep up the good work.
Good enough for Jazz. Another great demo.
Well explained in all respects. I started machining about three years ago and what I know came from TH-cam and the great folks who post machining videos. I discovered your channel after the BarZ Summer bash and am thoroughly enjoying your content.
Excellent! Thanks for watching!
Great explanations as always. You must have the longest tramming bar in the history of machining ;). As a hint, if you didn't already know, you can add pins on the bottom of your vise that fit in the T-slots of your mill to get your tramming close without any work. I had never heard of the parallel approach to vise tramming. I like it, thanks for the great idea.
Wow these videos are good! Clear, thoughtful, and to the point explanations and just what we needed for our Makerspace! Thanks!
Thank you for watching! 😁
Your videos are AMAZING!!!!! THANK YOU!!!
I just discovered you today and I must say you make great videos....knowledgeable/entertaining/well edited!
Aww thanks! Welcome to my little channel!
Great video as always, I’ll be out in the shop tomorrow morning trying out what I’ve learnt. Thank you 😊👍🏻
This is really thorough and accessible. Thanks!
Thank you so much 😊 for taking the time to make this video, I’m new to this and I’m just starting out
Lol that’s Awesome pic of you and your vice! Great video.
Well done as usual Quinn!
I intend to use the technical term skitchen in place of the non technical skoshi- bit from now on , anyway good program thanks.
I find vise indicating much easier than head tramming... different strokes I guess. Your method is interesting though and one I hadn't seen before. Will give it a shot next time I need to align my vise.
Great tips for a beginner like me. Thanks a lot.
These videos are so incredibly helpful. You’re an angel
Great voice for this kind of videos - good teaching skills. Just what i needed :P preparing for marine engineering school and we have a mandatory milling/lathe course im dreading. But these vids really explain a lot ^^
Very informative and enjoyable. It is possible to turn up a pair of dowels that are a good fit in your t slots. Fit them to the bottom of the vice in such a way that they are parallel to the fixed jaw. Then when you take the vice off and put it on again, it will be very close and need minimal adjustment. The M-perial system is much used in the UK too, where it is a perfectly reasonable proposition to ask for a 3 metre length of 4 x 2. Actually I think M-perial is a Commonwealth thing.🇬🇧🇨🇦🇦🇺🇳🇿🇳🇺🇵🇳🇸🇭🇹🇦🇹🇨🇻🇬🇲🇸🇰🇾🇮🇴🇫🇯🇧🇲🇮🇳...you get the picture.
Another top quality presentation.
Another nice video! Personally I've been using Tom's technique with my CNC'd G0704. The instant feedback makes it relatively quick, although getting that last few tenths is always finicky.
It's also worth mentioning that the bottom edges on some of the cheaper import vises are not de-burred at the factory. I had to spend 15 minutes with needle files on mine.
Yes, great point about the deburring. I’ve had to deburr pretty much every import thing I’ve bought.
I really appreciate you doing this
Quinn you are awesome, Thanks!
Great video Quinn....thank you .
Thank you, thank you, thank you, I took the almost perfectly trammed vice off the mill yesterday, I've watched Tom's Techniques and Dale Derry's awesome video's, but putting the damn vice back on, always ends up with me curled up in the foetal position;), your explanation was a Gibbs slap moment, I'll try again tomorrow, once I've stop crying and rocking back and forth:).
Thanks again, subscribed,
Scott.
Cool beans, I hope it helps. Thanks for the sub!
Thank you for your efforts
Learning a ton, thanks Quinn.
I just found your channel and I wish I would have known about it before I got my very cheap lathe. But you are giving me great insight on my lathe. And how much more money I have to spend for stuff for my lathe. And what to look for when I buy a mill. Thank you
Good job girl!i'd like to see more ladies like you in this world!thanks for sharing with us!
+1 on that.
This is a very good tutorial.
Fantastic video
I use the Lab Rat Method when squaring my vice...A precision 18" straight edge clamped in the vise on parallels with the static face used to indicate. I have mine currently dialed in to about .0005" in 18" on my Grizzly
You are the best. Excellent videos
Very well explained.
Thankyou, great tutorial
Thanks Quinn
This is so helpful for me.
I watch for the info I keep coming back for the dry comedy .. “I hope you appreciate that I moved my vice for the TH-cam audience...deeply emotionally scaring.. had it zero’d in” very funny stuff lol. I Encourage more jokes. You are hilarious.
☺️☺️
I just got my mill and never used one before. I've watched several of these tutorials and they're great! Thank you. I see the dial indicators in the list of equipment links. Thanks for that, too. But I don't see and can't find the arms you use to attach the indicator to your mill. Can you help me out with that?
Attach the lugs to the bottom of the vise, if they don’t fit your mill slot, machine them. You drop your vise onto the table and it’s within a .001 right from the start.
This vise doesn’t have keys. It’s on my project list to make some.
You can also square up your vice if you hit the parralel until it indicates true.
I know a lot about manipulation using very heavy hammers
Great video...how about a video on which of the 1000 mills to buy
I just had to sub to this Chanel.
great presentation.
I just thought of something, if you would make a pin that fits into the hole in the vice where the swivel base fit and you would secure it on the table somehow, you would then get a fulcrum more or less in the center of the vice.
Or you could just make keys for the vice, that's a bit easier but takes a bit more work.
Very good tutorial on tramming in X, not sure the tramming distance needs to be that long, yes, it improves the resolution, but generally width of bed Y is sufficient, ( this is fully supported by the width of the Y axis) Most machinsts will position the vise slightly off centre, normally to the left, this allows ending up and directing the chips away from the operator, say 50 mm of centre ref vise has width/table length. Also when milling on the top face, feed is left to right, so that the chips are again directed away from the operator.
Again, I have only watched three of your videos, and found your explanations very good, hope you don't mind my comments from my armchair, it does have a vise On it though🤓.
Best regards from the UK.
one little tipp on the maybe bigger import mills: if you tap the head or for that matter anything on the mill, not only use a rubber mallet, but also use a piece of scrap wood to hold against the mill. even a rubber mallet will chip the "paint", they like to put a lot of make up on their mills, usually around 5/64" of putty before the paint comes.
I love your videos... I learn a lot
Thank you , I enjoyed, learning a lot. God Bless!!!
My vise is leaving me for a an owner who uses a Mitutoyo!!!! I feel so defeated right now!! It said my indicator was completely inadequate! Curse you Starrett!! 🤣Good video thanks for your knowledge. 👍
I just got my new-to-me mill home this afternoon. Your timing is just about spot on! What's holding me up? There is a collet locked in the spindle and the collet wrench must have gone into another auction lot. Argh.
Sounds like you have your first project. 😁
I love the idea of using the parallel, never thought of doing that technique. Now I have to wait until global warming comes back in April to try this in my garage. Thank you!!
Another method is to start the indicator on one end, then move it toward the other end, tap the vise in the correct direction to stop the needle from moving. go back to the start and do it again. within a few seconds, the vise will be trammed in;
The Tom Techniques video I linked to demonstrates this
I'm late to the party, but after waiting 5 months for delivery, I've finally gotten a new mill like yours, a PM-25V with DRO and power feed. That tip with the parallel is GREAT! I spent 30 minutes goofing around trying to do it without that, then I rewatched this video... "Oh! Use a parallel! Right!" My vise (The same kind as yours) came with a rotating base, which I did not use, but after discovering that none of the threaded rods that came with the clamping kit would fit without a hodge podge fugitive fleet of clamping washers, I just tried the T-Nuts that came with the vise. They fit great! Not only does it look clean and tight, but I'm not using up the T-Nuts or threaded rods that came with the clamping kit.
Here's my question: Why put the vise in the middle? Why not off to one side? That would leave more room for direct fixturing. It can't be rigidity, as whatever you're using (Vise or direct fixturing.) is centered under the spindle when in use.
Hi Quinn, I really enjoy your videos!! You explain things very well...you'd make a good teacher for sure. Thanks and look forward to future videos. Btw, I enjoy the "and Bob's your uncle" comments :) Haven't heard that one here in the states.
Us Canucks are pretty much an even mix of the US and Europe. One foot in both worlds. 😀
It's a British saying
I realise this video is getting on a bit now (but good grief, 10 months ago? It seems like I only watched it yesterday! Must be me getting on a bit as well...); but when it comes to tramming a mill - certainly a knee mill, but it would work on a column mill too - I cannot recommend one of those dual-dial tramming tools enough. Don't buy one, though, make one! They're dead easy to do, you don't NEED a lathe (but it helps), and tramming becomes almost a pleasure afterwards. Almost. I've been messing around with mills & lathes for just over 10 years now; and 3 months ago I finally got around to making a tramming tool; and I've trammed my mill more times since I made it than in the entire 9 years 9 months previously! Instead of taking 20 minutes to get it close, now it takes like 5 minutes, and that's including setting the "nod" adjustment on my Bridgeport, which was always an absolute bear to do. Quinn - if you're reading this, you could make a great video or two out of it! Happy to lash together a drawing for you to work from, if you like.
Hi Quinn, many thanks for your superb videos. Fantastic humour with really easy to follow instructions for us newbies but having said that, I need your advice.
For starters, what is the size of the vice that you are using in the video? The reason that I ask is that in May I'm picking up my new mill and it has a 820x240mm table with a 55kg load rating and was considering getting a 6" vice for it. Do you consider this size of vice to be too large for that table? I will be machining all sizes of items from the small to the large in steel, brass and aluminium. The other question is, should the vice (whichever size) be mounted in the centre of the table or is that just personal preference? I was considering mounting more to one end of the table to allow for clamping larger items directly to the other? Your thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated. I will be working my way through all of your videos as they are somewhat addictive viewing. Please keep them coming.
When you get a machine like this, its advised to check that you Z axis is running perpendicular to your table first. You only need to sweep the width of your table and you still need to check your tram front to back. You can shim under the base of the column to adjust.
Thanks!
Some great tips,,,, if I ever get my head trammed accurately I think im gonna weld it there hahaha
This is my first time here, looking forward to your other videos. The only thing I kind of disagree with is that moving the vise is bad because it's difficult to tram again. I've found that after doing it regularly, it becomes a couple minute job, much like dialing in a 4 jaw. Unless you're Keith Fenner, then it's a couple second job :)
Great video, makes me want a mill even more, but No Space!
I know the feeling. Never enough space or time.
Just because the mill does not have a nod adjust, I would not assume that nod is perfectly trammed. Even on these mills check the nod and check the spindle to z-axis parallellism (sweep an indicator with the z-axis up a machinists square. If the nod is trammed but the needle still moves the spindle is not square)
Even when these things are not adjustable (easily), they can still be dealt with, either by knowing they are there and accommodating for it, or shimming/epoxying/scraping in the mill. (Don't scrape in a mill like this, they are great for the purpose and i do have one, but they do flex several thousands out of tram under cutting loads, so don't go nuts with the tram)
Yes, and as another commenter pointed out, the likely error will be sag in the nod direction. That’s easily fixed with a shim under the head mounting bolts, or under the bolts between the base and column.
Whether to adjust the column/base interface or the head depends on what's off. If the column is not perpendicular to the table this is fixed by adjusting the column mounting. If the spindle is not parallel to the column this is fixed at the head. I measure a bit of nod on mine, but as I can measure it when sweeping a square in the Z direction I know it is because the column is out of square.
Also, we should consider whether it is actually worth fixing. Note that shimming causes a loss of rigidity. I.e. the machine will deflect a bit more under cutting loads. If the error is small I would consider not shimming out the error to maintain better rigidity. Using machine adjusting epoxy is a better approach, but is also a bit more of a commitment.
I personally would not use an as long mount for the indicator to measure tram as you do. The added precision is in my view meaningless because of the rigidity of the machine, and you cannot use the same setup to measure the Y axis easily. I'd stick to a ~10cm extension (4" in freedom units) for the indicator and measure all four cardinal directions on the table in one setup. Even though you can't adjust Y tram it is useful to know what it is and if it has moved. Note that if you just measure two points in the corners of the table and your machine has a bit of nod, you will actually end up dialing in a bit of tilt on the head as you move the normal plane to the spindle to intersect the table at the two points you measure. You need at least three measurements to know the head is tram.
Oh, Great video series BTW. your approach of starting from the ground up complements the other machinists channels very well.
Another relatively easy way is to use two dial gauges, one at each end of the vice jaw (or inserted parallel plate) and tighten the vice.
Then move the table so that the left end touches the gauge on the left and zero that gauge. Now move the table so that same left end of the vice now touches the right gauge and zero that one. Move the table back to the left so the left end of the vice touches the left gauge and the right touches the right.
You can now loosen the vice and tap it while observing both gauges and trying to get them to give the same reading. Since you are seeing both the left and right simultaneously it becomes very quick and easy to get both sides the same.
That sounds like a great method. Thanks for sharing!
Lathes on chucks? Lets leave my friend chuck out of these videos I'm pretty confident the poor guy don't need any lathes on him. Aside from that I'm always happy to see a new video you put out thank you Quinn!
Yea, I hung out with Chuck, he'll never get lathed.
Yep. She's still funny and awesome. 🥰
Here's a tip look closely at the top of the pads that the nuts clamp to. If it's a cast surface and not smooth when you tighten the nuts against the Vice the torque exerted on the nut will move the Vice sideways because of the uneven surface you tighten against. Buy Machining these surfaces smooth you can avoid much angst.
There are a couple of layers of washers there that help too. The nuts aren’t clamping on the castings.
@@Blondihacks the washers do not negate the surface that they're clamped to. And uneven surface no matter where it is will provide uneven clamping pressure. Think of press fitting one part within another. If the surfaces are not parallel to each other the part presses sideways. Therefore you have the same situation when clamping a vise if the pair of surfaces not all parallel they pushed sideways.
Oh yes, that’s true. I thought you were referring to the nuts dragging on the rough casting as they get tight, which can also cause things to move. Washers do help with that.
Were you at the Smithsonian today for Adam Savage's build of the hatch? I saw your name on the plaque! (I watched the build on TH-cam).
Sadly no, I couldn’t make it there in person. I was super bummed about it. Had to watch the livestream. Adam installed my part very very last thing, even after vacuuming the carpet and installing the plaques. 🤣
One tip for tramming the vise in. If the front of the table indicates zero and your tee slots are zero take the movable jaw off of the vise and clamp the vise to the table with the solid* jaw up against the front of the table. Now cut a slot in the bottom of the vise for alignment keys. These can be in line with your dold downs slots or off set by the distance between your tee slots. Instant alignment when installing the vise. Baba bing, bada boom.
Also when tramming the head with 40+ years experience when checking the reading in each direction have the indicator above the table and slip something of a consistent dimension between the table and tip of the indicator. This can keep the tip of the indicator from hitting in the tee slot or the edge of the table.
These types of mills you also need to check the tram of the y axis to see just where everything is. Nick Mueller on TH-cam has an excellent series on alignment of dovetail column mills.
*nothing is solid, with the vise mounted set an indicator against the "solid " jaw. Now clamp something in the vise and see what the indicator does. A lot of it simple physics. The rest is the way the vise is constructed.
I much prefer this type of vise personally
www.shars.com/6-660ur-reverse-cnc-milling-machine-vise-0-0004-1
Love yr channel
just bought a mill same as yours
and im a scotsman too
Hi! I'm very new to this but what if you place a parallel piece in the vice so that on edge is on a line between the two fixing bolts?
That's a good looking apron you're wearing. Where did you get it? Thanks for the video!
Thanks! It’s from a company called Moonshine Leather
Hi Quinn!! Learning a lot from your videos. Just got a new Mill/Drill from Shop Fox (#M1116). Since it's a smaller machine, what size vise would you suggest?
I must say after swapping vices, rotary tables, and chucks at least once a week on a VMC.. it's not hard using one side as a rotation point and sweeping the surface the jaw actually bolts to since even hard jaws aren't flawless. Settle for .0001 over the width of the vise.