Former Alaska (current California) controller here! There are actually ways to have more than one aircraft SVFR in a surface area at once! Visual separation, radar separation, and non-radar separation are approved. The most simple is non-radar (on in the airspace is basic non-radar). That can also be used for altitude, so in your case as soon as that IFR departure had reported vacating above 1,000 you’d be good to go. The tower controller or pilot can apply visual. At my tower in Alaska we’d regularly do departure or arrival lines, where we’d get multiple aircraft that had each other in sight and line them up; I’ve had seven planes SVFR in my 3nm class D before.
Also controller note here, awesome that you reported when you encountered basic VFR conditions. Many people don’t realize that the IFR reporting METAR only controls aircraft actually operating in and out of that primary airport, once you’re off the ground it’s up to the pilot wether they need SVFR or can appropriately separate themselves from clouds (and traffic) under basic VFR rules. Once you make that report, it’s equivalent to canceling an IFR and you’re free to go. As a radar controller when I’ve had SVFR helicopters landing off airport, I’ve queried them if they had encountered basic VFR conditions and could relinquish their SVFR.
Great video Jason! It helps explain what the situation was the first time I flew SVFR after my home base airport became IFR, and indirectly explains why they don't allow SVFR in busy class B airspace. I'm also happy to hear, if I understood you correctly, that you are planning to add IFR instruction to your ground school app. I'll be looking forward to that.
Special VFR is really a neat tool to have in your toolkit in case you need it, and I really love how you go into both the benefits and risks of using that tool. Great video as always!
I made a special VFR departure out of Little Rock with 900 OV but 10m viz. I knew I was headed to much better weather. Only time I've ever asked for it.
Last time I flew in marginal VFR we ended up doing an emergency pull up because everything went white at about 600ft (out of G into E). Take care out there.
I had to land at my class D airport yesterday with special VFR clearance. My instructor and I went on a 2.5 hour cross country at 7am and by the time we got back, it was IFR over the airport. Thankfully the direction we came in there was plenty of visibility to see.
A few years ago my destination was 2 miles visibility in smoke when I took off. I was prepared to use Special VFR. The airport in question was my home base and I knew the airport and its environs extremely well. The smoke was local: the two neighbouring airports were both CAVOK so I had an out if I needed it. By the time I got there conditions had improved to 5 miles. Still not great, but I could work with it and landed safely.
Great presentation of SVFR, a valuable tool for many of us that fly VFR into costal environments. I think it is important to emphasize the geographic constraints that apply when using SVFR - the clearance is only valid for the controlled airspace surface area for the airport you are arriving or departing. Once out of that surface area the VFR weather minima return to that of the class of airspace you are entering. Ideally you are exiting the surface area into class G (mostly in rural areas, and most the country is rural), but in an urban environment, you need to be aware of where the class E floor is and how that factors into the real-time weather minima that you need to be considering. In the video the edge of the marine layer was still within the class D surface area; an ideal example of where SVFR really makes things slick and useful. It is also possible to get SVFR into/out of a surface class E airfield, like KVIS. But even less commonly used (or understood). SVFR does not exist at class G airfields as the weather minima for departing/arriving are the same as SVFR's minima (KGOO for example). A small note, there can be more aircraft in the airspace while an aircraft is on an SVFR clearance, just the separation of those aircraft has more nuance to it, and, since it is used so rarely in most of the country, not usually something controllers offer. In Alaska it is not uncommon to have multiple aircraft SVFR, with each aircraft told to follow and maintain visual separation from the aircraft ahead. It's a very critical tool to poor-weather operations with VFR part 135 operators at busy airfields.
@@TheFinerPoints what was great was you used a very specific “REAL” example of not only how/why it could be applied, but actually demonstrated it as well….. Again, awesome job!!!
This looked kind of familiar, I used to fly in similar conditions all the time when training for my LAPL :) And it even used to be Specia VFR as the airfield was towered with a class D CTZ at the time (later it became untowered and now it's closed :(
I teach my students Special VFR and basically tell them this "marine layer next to clear skies" is the only scenario you should ever do Special VFR. It's perfectly safe if you think you can hit that clear area before leaving the class D/C/B surface area. Special VFR can only be done inside the surface area of class D/C/B and class E surface area associated with a controlled airport, so you better have your VFR weather minima met once you leave that surface area airspace (usually only about 5 miles from the airport). In many parts of the country where class E starts at 700ft AGL, you really need to request special VFR any time the cloud deck is less than 1500ft AGL, because otherwise you need to maintain 1000ft AGL to meet minimum altitude rules above populated places and you need to be 500ft below the cloud based to maintain class E cloud separation requirements. I've had controllers tell me I don't need special VFR when the clouds were at 1100ft AGL. I had to insist I would not be able to maintain cloud separation requirements to get the special VFR clearance. Technically you could fly your departure pattern low at like 400ft AGL or something because one exception to the minimum altitude rules is "taking off or landing."
Is a downwind departure/ after you depart the pattern really still considered takeoff though. For me it is hard to make the call to fly lower than 1000 ft above the ground over a populated area even with special vfr clearance. Seems you still need the ground clearance after initial departure climb. Hence why traffic patterns are usually 1000 AGL along with other reasons like emergencies. Let me know if I got this wrong please! Edit: also make sure the airspace allows special vfr as many class B do not and it is marked on the sectional.
@@TheBrennan90 91.119 is thankfully vague and only says "when necessary takeoff or landing". Interpret as you will, be safe as you must, and avoid creating a reason for that language to be further interpreted.
@@TheBrennan90 There is some wiggle room on interpretation. I usually lean towards getting a SVFR clearance (or IFR) when the ceiling is less than 1500 AGL, especially if there is rising terrain along my initial route. But I have had controllers insist I don't need it because I can fly lower than 1000ft AGL in the pattern even though it is densely populated.
Not sure if the US do it differently, but when you were on the ground at KHWD you said "overcast at 700ft" and the annotation said OVC700. Here in Australia that would mean overcast at 70,000ft 🤣 thank you for this video, very interesting!
I'm doing survey in an Aztec in the San Diego area. I may need special VFR to get to the east. We cant file IFR because the camera cant get wet so this may be my option to get out of the area. Thanks for posting
Our small rural airport has charted surface Class E airspace and I have often used SVFR to leave and depart if the weather beyond the dimensions of the charted surface Class E airspace is VFR. To get a clearance I call FSS on the RCO and they call ATC. I'm given a code for the transponder and I am cleared to depart and told to contact ATC on departure and later told by ATC to report clear of the surface class E airspace. I do that and go to 1200 on the transponder. It's all rural within the airspace except for the small town. The ATC clearance is for the charted surface class E airspace; not beyond. Although difficult to discern from the video, it appears the plane departed the class D airspace but, unlike before, was now in conflict with being too low over a congested area. I saw a lot of buildings and that looks congested, not "other than congested."
I have a question about this. Probably should already know, but better to be sure... does the pilot need to be instrument certified to request SVFR? I know, dumb question. Great video, Jason. Thank you for all you do!
I thought I'd seen FAA rulings/interpretations that even 2-3 buildings or houses constitutes a "congested" area. I think maybe being on approach to land or departure is what makes the difference? But even with normal takeoffs you're below 1000 ft for possibly a mile or so over a congested area; that's just the geography of the airport area. But I guess if you go for a few miles at 500 ft, there would need to be a different exception, like being in Class D airspace?
Great video -- always like your stuff Jason. But I am also wondering about the comment around congested area (hence posting in this thread). Anywhere in that area I would be surprised if "not a congested area" argument is viable. You may be able to argue "while taking off or landing" but like Grey says, depending upon how many miles at 500 ...
I noticed you were issued a right downwind departure from 28L. Were you flying that between the parallel runways? I’ve never been given that at my field that has parallel runways. Typically it is a left downwind departure (when departing the left runway) with a midfield crossing instruction. How was that handled? PS - who’s random dog walking under the Mooney at the end? 😀
Long time out of aviation, so I have a silly question. Since Jason was granted SVFR, but was told to squawk 1200, would he show up on the controller's fish finder?
It's hard to see in the video because I didn't have cameras pointed that way but I mean there are landing spots available to the south of the airport. If you look at the sectional you can see it in the yellow outlines around Hayward (or lack thereof). I felt I could glide there if need be. I also wanted to make the point that this is something to consider when flying special VFR rather than discuss my specific situation.
You briefly touched upon it but now I'm curious, how does svfr get around the minimum altitude requirement in congested areas or if you can't maintain 1k ft altitude then you can't do svfr legally?
They will generally not give you SVFR under those conditions. Some towers will only give SVFR clearances in one direction (say, over the water), but not the other (over populated area).
Yes perhaps many but you could use the example of this video. To get out IFR we would have had to file, get a clearance, and get released into the system ... all of which would take a while and not be relevant to a VFR lesson. This way, we get out to clear skies and go to work and the whole thing is VFR and "level appropriate" for the students.
I've been spending my Sunday mornings publishing videos for the last 15 years for fractions of minimum wage and you call ME greedy because you can't stand seeing 5 little cards pop up in the top right corner of your free video? wow.
Former Alaska (current California) controller here! There are actually ways to have more than one aircraft SVFR in a surface area at once! Visual separation, radar separation, and non-radar separation are approved. The most simple is non-radar (on in the airspace is basic non-radar). That can also be used for altitude, so in your case as soon as that IFR departure had reported vacating above 1,000 you’d be good to go. The tower controller or pilot can apply visual. At my tower in Alaska we’d regularly do departure or arrival lines, where we’d get multiple aircraft that had each other in sight and line them up; I’ve had seven planes SVFR in my 3nm class D before.
Also controller note here, awesome that you reported when you encountered basic VFR conditions. Many people don’t realize that the IFR reporting METAR only controls aircraft actually operating in and out of that primary airport, once you’re off the ground it’s up to the pilot wether they need SVFR or can appropriately separate themselves from clouds (and traffic) under basic VFR rules. Once you make that report, it’s equivalent to canceling an IFR and you’re free to go. As a radar controller when I’ve had SVFR helicopters landing off airport, I’ve queried them if they had encountered basic VFR conditions and could relinquish their SVFR.
Being out of Hayward and doing bay tours all the time, this is super helpful content in general but especially for us in the bay!
"if there's something *special* i could do for you?" 🤣🤣 idk why that part got me cracking up
Great video Jason! It helps explain what the situation was the first time I flew SVFR after my home base airport became IFR, and indirectly explains why they don't allow SVFR in busy class B airspace. I'm also happy to hear, if I understood you correctly, that you are planning to add IFR instruction to your ground school app. I'll be looking forward to that.
Special VFR is really a neat tool to have in your toolkit in case you need it, and I really love how you go into both the benefits and risks of using that tool. Great video as always!
As it happens I know that area very well and I wouldn't want to be doing this :)
Whoa! Scott Manley over on the The Finer Points channel, hope your training is going well!
the metar read “ ovc 700”, shouldn’t have been “ ovc 007”? Thank you for your time and videos, I’m truly grateful.
I noticed that too!
Yes, it should have - oops
What does "CLM" mean?
@@Rodhern I presume it means calm winds. An actual METAR would report calm winds as 00000KT.
@@johnopalko5223 Ahh, makes sense, thanks.
Thank you for the video sir. I’m currently studying for my PPL and joining your channel is very helpful
I made a special VFR departure out of Little Rock with 900 OV but 10m viz. I knew I was headed to much better weather. Only time I've ever asked for it.
Last time I flew in marginal VFR we ended up doing an emergency pull up because everything went white at about 600ft (out of G into E). Take care out there.
Very much doubt the FAA would consider that to be "other than congested". Otherwise great video as always.
Man that FS2020 update looks unreal!
Great learning opportunity. Thank you Jason.
My pleasure!
Great info as usual, does the PIC and aircraft have to be instrument rated/current and equipped respectively to fly a SVFR?
Flown SVFR once. It's an interesting experience with the 1 to 1 1/4 visibility.
I had to land at my class D airport yesterday with special VFR clearance. My instructor and I went on a 2.5 hour cross country at 7am and by the time we got back, it was IFR over the airport. Thankfully the direction we came in there was plenty of visibility to see.
Hi Jeremy. Just curious to know how this occurs. I assume your local aerodrome issues a TAF?
@@martinh88 my airport has ASOS which updates the weather every hour
A few years ago my destination was 2 miles visibility in smoke when I took off. I was prepared to use Special VFR. The airport in question was my home base and I knew the airport and its environs extremely well. The smoke was local: the two neighbouring airports were both CAVOK so I had an out if I needed it. By the time I got there conditions had improved to 5 miles. Still not great, but I could work with it and landed safely.
Basic, practical useful safety info, as usual. Cheers.
Great presentation of SVFR, a valuable tool for many of us that fly VFR into costal environments.
I think it is important to emphasize the geographic constraints that apply when using SVFR - the clearance is only valid for the controlled airspace surface area for the airport you are arriving or departing. Once out of that surface area the VFR weather minima return to that of the class of airspace you are entering. Ideally you are exiting the surface area into class G (mostly in rural areas, and most the country is rural), but in an urban environment, you need to be aware of where the class E floor is and how that factors into the real-time weather minima that you need to be considering. In the video the edge of the marine layer was still within the class D surface area; an ideal example of where SVFR really makes things slick and useful.
It is also possible to get SVFR into/out of a surface class E airfield, like KVIS. But even less commonly used (or understood). SVFR does not exist at class G airfields as the weather minima for departing/arriving are the same as SVFR's minima (KGOO for example).
A small note, there can be more aircraft in the airspace while an aircraft is on an SVFR clearance, just the separation of those aircraft has more nuance to it, and, since it is used so rarely in most of the country, not usually something controllers offer. In Alaska it is not uncommon to have multiple aircraft SVFR, with each aircraft told to follow and maintain visual separation from the aircraft ahead. It's a very critical tool to poor-weather operations with VFR part 135 operators at busy airfields.
Yeah, what we in Europe call (and the usa used to call) control zones
Awesome job clarifying this so that all can understand!
Thanks! We don't often "see" special VFR used ...
@@TheFinerPoints what was great was you used a very specific “REAL” example of not only how/why it could be applied, but actually demonstrated it as well…..
Again, awesome job!!!
Yeah one of a kind great video. Thanks for making and posting. I've also seen maintenance pattern flights use special vfr.
@@SelventaAir
Agreed, one of the few TH-cam instructors that makes videos for pilots of all skill sets….
Thanks....that was very informative
Lol the Cessna at my local FBO (KJEF) has the tailnumber 5213F pretty close to 18F thought that was interesting.
The whole congested/uncongested thing seems so subjective. FAA please.
-- nice to know how it works -- but i think i'll just fly the instrument approach and departure.
This looked kind of familiar, I used to fly in similar conditions all the time when training for my LAPL :) And it even used to be Specia VFR as the airfield was towered with a class D CTZ at the time (later it became untowered and now it's closed :(
I teach my students Special VFR and basically tell them this "marine layer next to clear skies" is the only scenario you should ever do Special VFR. It's perfectly safe if you think you can hit that clear area before leaving the class D/C/B surface area. Special VFR can only be done inside the surface area of class D/C/B and class E surface area associated with a controlled airport, so you better have your VFR weather minima met once you leave that surface area airspace (usually only about 5 miles from the airport).
In many parts of the country where class E starts at 700ft AGL, you really need to request special VFR any time the cloud deck is less than 1500ft AGL, because otherwise you need to maintain 1000ft AGL to meet minimum altitude rules above populated places and you need to be 500ft below the cloud based to maintain class E cloud separation requirements. I've had controllers tell me I don't need special VFR when the clouds were at 1100ft AGL. I had to insist I would not be able to maintain cloud separation requirements to get the special VFR clearance. Technically you could fly your departure pattern low at like 400ft AGL or something because one exception to the minimum altitude rules is "taking off or landing."
Is a downwind departure/ after you depart the pattern really still considered takeoff though. For me it is hard to make the call to fly lower than 1000 ft above the ground over a populated area even with special vfr clearance. Seems you still need the ground clearance after initial departure climb. Hence why traffic patterns are usually 1000 AGL along with other reasons like emergencies. Let me know if I got this wrong please! Edit: also make sure the airspace allows special vfr as many class B do not and it is marked on the sectional.
@@TheBrennan90 91.119 is thankfully vague and only says "when necessary takeoff or landing". Interpret as you will, be safe as you must, and avoid creating a reason for that language to be further interpreted.
@@TheBrennan90 There is some wiggle room on interpretation. I usually lean towards getting a SVFR clearance (or IFR) when the ceiling is less than 1500 AGL, especially if there is rising terrain along my initial route. But I have had controllers insist I don't need it because I can fly lower than 1000ft AGL in the pattern even though it is densely populated.
Great content
Unless I knew the terrain really well I probably would just file IFR to get through the cloud deck and then cancel once I got into VFR conditions.
Not sure if the US do it differently, but when you were on the ground at KHWD you said "overcast at 700ft" and the annotation said OVC700. Here in Australia that would mean overcast at 70,000ft 🤣 thank you for this video, very interesting!
Agreed! That was tripping me up. Should have been OVC007
Good catch. Editing typo most likely
I'm doing survey in an Aztec in the San Diego area. I may need special VFR to get to the east. We cant file IFR because the camera cant get wet so this may be my option to get out of the area. Thanks for posting
Our small rural airport has charted surface Class E airspace and I have often used SVFR to leave and depart if the weather beyond the dimensions of the charted surface Class E airspace is VFR. To get a clearance I call FSS on the RCO and they call ATC. I'm given a code for the transponder and I am cleared to depart and told to contact ATC on departure and later told by ATC to report clear of the surface class E airspace. I do that and go to 1200 on the transponder. It's all rural within the airspace except for the small town. The ATC clearance is for the charted surface class E airspace; not beyond. Although difficult to discern from the video, it appears the plane departed the class D airspace but, unlike before, was now in conflict with being too low over a congested area. I saw a lot of buildings and that looks congested, not "other than congested."
I have a question about this. Probably should already know, but better to be sure... does the pilot need to be instrument certified to request SVFR? I know, dumb question.
Great video, Jason. Thank you for all you do!
Not a dumb question at all. The answer is NO during the day but YES at night (and in an instrument capable airplane).
@@TheFinerPoints Thanks Jason. Great to know.
I thought I'd seen FAA rulings/interpretations that even 2-3 buildings or houses constitutes a "congested" area. I think maybe being on approach to land or departure is what makes the difference? But even with normal takeoffs you're below 1000 ft for possibly a mile or so over a congested area; that's just the geography of the airport area. But I guess if you go for a few miles at 500 ft, there would need to be a different exception, like being in Class D airspace?
I always went off yellow on the sectional = congested airspace.
Great video -- always like your stuff Jason. But I am also wondering about the comment around congested area (hence posting in this thread). Anywhere in that area I would be surprised if "not a congested area" argument is viable. You may be able to argue "while taking off or landing" but like Grey says, depending upon how many miles at 500 ...
I noticed you were issued a right downwind departure from 28L. Were you flying that between the parallel runways? I’ve never been given that at my field that has parallel runways. Typically it is a left downwind departure (when departing the left runway) with a midfield crossing instruction. How was that handled?
PS - who’s random dog walking under the Mooney at the end? 😀
Long time out of aviation, so I have a silly question. Since Jason was granted SVFR, but was told to squawk 1200, would he show up on the controller's fish finder?
Grear lesson
Could you clarify what you meant when you were talking about not being over a congested area, because that area looks pretty congested to me!
It's hard to see in the video because I didn't have cameras pointed that way but I mean there are landing spots available to the south of the airport. If you look at the sectional you can see it in the yellow outlines around Hayward (or lack thereof). I felt I could glide there if need be. I also wanted to make the point that this is something to consider when flying special VFR rather than discuss my specific situation.
That area looks pretty darn congested to me....
You briefly touched upon it but now I'm curious, how does svfr get around the minimum altitude requirement in congested areas or if you can't maintain 1k ft altitude then you can't do svfr legally?
They will generally not give you SVFR under those conditions. Some towers will only give SVFR clearances in one direction (say, over the water), but not the other (over populated area).
That requirement doesn't apply if it's during takeoff or landing.
Is there a scenario an instrument rated pilot would use this rather than filing?
Icing conditions.
Yes perhaps many but you could use the example of this video. To get out IFR we would have had to file, get a clearance, and get released into the system ... all of which would take a while and not be relevant to a VFR lesson. This way, we get out to clear skies and go to work and the whole thing is VFR and "level appropriate" for the students.
Ready for take-off? Isn't that supposed to be ready for departure? Just wondering 🤔
Scud running!
6 ads on a sponsored video? Greedy.
I've been spending my Sunday mornings publishing videos for the last 15 years for fractions of minimum wage and you call ME greedy because you can't stand seeing 5 little cards pop up in the top right corner of your free video? wow.
You are getting free entertainment, why are you complaining.
Pay for youtube premium and no more ads.
Always seems to be at least one whiner.