its honestly some of the coolest conversation to listen to, an ASW officer giving a peak into their line of thinking. I was on the USS Rhode Island 2015-2018 as a nuclear machinist mate. really cool to hear the "adversary" in the surface fleet lol
Australian OHP were called Adelaide class. The Anzac class were a separate class of frigates based on the Meko 200. 8 for the RAN and 2 for the RNZN. HMAS Anzac was only decommissioned last year
You should have Nato ASW air assets covering the route, from the UK at Gibraltar, the Spanish, French and Italians.While Gibraltar is a natural choak point, we know this and it has so many Nato assets in that area, that few Russian subs would dare to venture there.
20:47 trying to enter the mind of Fly, if he’s given you an air-defense cruiser as an anti-submarine asset, I wouldn’t be shocked that at least one of the adversary submarines is a cruise missile boat… so I question the use of active sonar here, since your detection range is so much shorter than an adversary’s launch range. (That’s even true of torps, not just missiles.)
@@preserveourpbfs7128at 5 knots the reactor is near silent to the sonar saturation. They’d be able to hear the torpedo break the surface as it dropped in. Which would be an instant dive and noise maker In response.
Alphas ran at 130db quiet running (not quiet)... and were the second noisiest sub only to the Chinese Han subs, also their sonars only could hear around 5000 yards...
Yes, reading is "Blind Man's Bluff" by Sherry Sontag is highly recommended. One issue is that NS Rota and NAS Sigonella usually had P-3s on rotational duty. Always have to have P-3s butvvery happy to see the H-2s and HSLs getting recognition in the Sim. Also Cap, the Soviets did not realize just how loud their Nuke Boats were until it was disclosed to them in information sold to them by spies in the NSA and USN. The Alphas, Victors, Sierras were very fast submarines but were compared to NATO Nuke boats very loud. The Akulas and possible Charlie SSNs benefitted from the theft of information.
idk if this is mentioned later in the video (only at 19:00 as of time of writing), but vanilla sonobuoys only have a range of 15nm. meaning you need a unit within 15nm in order to communicate with the buoys.
You don't always need to fire both torpedoes out of the helicopter at the submarine, they cannot shoot down your torpedoes, and a spare torpedo can be used to 'box in' fast targets like Alfas, or on other enemy submarines. Torpedoes are also 'smarter' than missiles in some ways, they will go around noisemakers and then look to re-acquire the target. Also, submarines usually cap out at a certain speed because drag increases with v^2, which means power required for a certain speed also increases this way. In nuclear-powered submarines, power generation produces noise and thus increase detectability; and in diesel-electrics, higher power use means less time the sub can stay submerged. It is therefore a cost-to-benefit tradeoff.
A very fun and informative mission! I always enjoy these videos with the guys giving their thoughts on how to properly carry out the mission and how to use the resources available.
Much appreciated with ur content cap. Thanks again. I haven't seen any content creators use asroc to much and haven't seen any torpedoes launched from any ships for asw work. If u can have a episode with trying to use torps from ships like asroc and side mounted torps for asw would be cool to see. Most only use helicopters. It's fun to watch asroc and asw torps from ships being launched
Soooooo, couple things going on here: The Legend car in iRacing is a couple generations older than the ones raced currently, as such these cars are *air cooled* 😂 so they're losing power EVERY lap, and if you're drafting you're losing power even quicker because clean air isn't hitting your engine At the same time, the tank is offset to one side, and the car is live axel, so it's particularly sensitive to fuel level; driving significantly worse as it empties Toss on not so great tires and, yeah. iRacing is planning to do a refresh on these in a coming patch. They'll be moving to a water cooled triple with a six speed and hopefully get some decent road tires to boot.
51:20 I believe (at least till 1985ish) the British still had depth charges, and they could be dropped from helicopters. Probably for this exact same use case.
My favourite books on submarines is Sink the Belgrano by Mike Rossiter about the submarine hms Conqueror and the Falklands war but then there is the book Secrets of the Conqueror by Stuart Prebble and a top secret operation it carried out. For a modern day read you can find out a lot about how the new Royal Navy Astute class operate and their missions in the Haynes owners workshop manual.
Given how much the lessons of WW2 submarines still inform modern SW/ASW and the fact that you're interested in learning about submarines in general, allow me to recommend a game called U-Boat, a single player WW2 sub sim, very good for learning about submarine attack patterns and planning, torpedo solutions and how to evade destroyers after an attack. The Soviet sub does seem to have been bugged with the torpedo evasion but that said, rapid changes of direction and depth can spoof even modern torpedos.
You need to drop bouys around your target to get more data and improve your solution. IRL the depth, distance before active ect would be programed to increase PK, i can only assume it would be the same in game.b
"Wouldn't other countries respond to soviets in the straight of Gibraltar?" I'd imagine the Royal Navy might have something to say about it, given the importance of the rock.
BTW....their is still a known glitch in the game thats causing a torps to turn away from targets at the last minute. I've been staying away from sub combat till its fixed
FYI: the Alfa was only fast. She was a noisy boat whose reactor was very noisy who depended on speed and the ability to dive VERY deep. I am not surprised she was heard. Speed is great, but I humbly submit the Victor III is a better choice for the Mediterranean. I think there was a diesel version [unarmed?] that was a testbed for the premise that was fast for a diesel boat and could dive very deep. Thank you CAP.
18 minutes in and I am thinking about what Doenitz said in his book. There is a strong current in the straights, so that once a U Boat got in to the Med, it was virtually trapped there. That probably means that the "layer" doesn't exist there. Or am I wrong?
The mk46 wasn't really that great in seeker design, and it wasn't until the mk50 was developed it had the capability to go after deep & fast subs like the Alfa class. Naturally budget cuts meant the mk50 was so expensive so they didn't produce any after the cold war ended, and now they have a mk54 which is a cross-breed between a mk50 seeker + mk46 body.
I appreciate this may be beyond the set up but at Gibraltar there is a massive submarine detection system in place. Could this be factored in sea power?
you dont have too fire the torps directly at the subs, if you aim ahead of the sub the helo will fire at that peice of ocean you have told the helo to fire at.
26:35 i think believe they *did* model that in game, as the description of one of the Russian heli-carriers, the Moskva-class, specifically mentions that it works best in the Med, using a powerful sonar that can make use of the bottom bounce phenomena. 34:18 you're likely limited to the max speed of the slowest ship in formation. oh you meant speeding up the game itself. that's not limited by threat, it's limited by things happening. it was probably slower so it could keep track of those two torpedoes that were still active and chasing noisemakers. 37:15 tiny gods i hope they put in the Seawolf class. "how much speed should this submarine have?" "all of it." 41:35 no Akula in game, and they're more stubby looking anyway. that's probably a Victor-3. also, there's the reason they're making so much noise. it's cavitating like a mother.... 48:12 i wonder if those two torpedoes are chasing each other....? is that a thing they can do? 52:07 there is a minimum engagement distance of the mk 46 of 0.5 miles. i *think* that's a safety feature, but i could be wrong.
One tactic both sides use is for subs to hide under merchant vessels. One note on nato forces in the med, France and Italy both have capable naval assets. Unlike Canada and the UK, they have actually improved their navies. Not sure about Spain.
You should space your sonar buoys out a LOT more by at least 5 miles apart and not put them as close as you did as it's wasteful to put that many so close together. Also instead of doing SLAVO 2 of torpedoes, it's better to stagger them apart by at least 15-30 seconds.
OK Cap, If Gibrater Dam that has been proposed several times in the past, but never built, was built and you had to get the convoy through a series of lock gates to enter the Med, how would that have affected this mission? Discuss......
True, though we don’t know how long that’s gonna be. I’ll be sure to remake the mission (or mission, gonna make a few more scenarios on the Falklands) once we get proper assets though.
Has pony seen the movie from 2018 hunter killer with gerard butler? And if he has seen it what does he think of it? Just curious. The movie looked pretty cool
Dumb question from American: Would this be a good tactic for the subs: Wait for the convoy to pass, then come in behind? Or are the subs too slow for that? I know exactly 0% about... well... anything. Thanks!
Cap, you were wrong about RIM-156A SM-2ER Block IV. It did exist and it even was in service, just in limited numbers (only 100 missiles procured). Its successor, RIM-156B SM-2ER Block IVa, was cancelled. Everyone makes mistakes but it’s kind of unexplainable when you use something 100% incorrect as a tidbit. Source: Missile Defense Project, "Standard Missile-2 Block IV," Missile Threat, Center for Strategic and International Studies
its honestly some of the coolest conversation to listen to, an ASW officer giving a peak into their line of thinking. I was on the USS Rhode Island 2015-2018 as a nuclear machinist mate. really cool to hear the "adversary" in the surface fleet lol
When u say ‘surface fleet’ don’t u targets?!? 😂
Love these live battles. Have not watched yet but know its going to be awesome.
"I'm just going to start doing lines"
- cap, 2025 @10:43
2025 be rough and we're only two weeks in...
You caught that too. 😂😂
Australian OHP were called Adelaide class. The Anzac class were a separate class of frigates based on the Meko 200. 8 for the RAN and 2 for the RNZN.
HMAS Anzac was only decommissioned last year
You should have Nato ASW air assets covering the route, from the UK at Gibraltar, the Spanish, French and Italians.While Gibraltar is a natural choak point, we know this and it has so many Nato assets in that area, that few Russian subs would dare to venture there.
P-3s from Rota!!!!!!!
28:33 The Romeos are diesel-electric subs, The Victor, Sierra, Alfa and Akula subs are all nuclear
he was probably thinking of the November class
20:47 trying to enter the mind of Fly, if he’s given you an air-defense cruiser as an anti-submarine asset, I wouldn’t be shocked that at least one of the adversary submarines is a cruise missile boat… so I question the use of active sonar here, since your detection range is so much shorter than an adversary’s launch range. (That’s even true of torps, not just missiles.)
How realistic that the Alfa continued at barely 5 knots and didn't power up at all to perform evasions...
the torpedos were dropped in its baffles, so it probably wasn’t even aware of the torpedos
@@preserveourpbfs7128at 5 knots the reactor is near silent to the sonar saturation. They’d be able to hear the torpedo break the surface as it dropped in.
Which would be an instant dive and noise maker In response.
@@jugganaut33 that makes sense, but I’m not sure that’s modeled in sea power (yet)
Alphas ran at 130db quiet running (not quiet)... and were the second noisiest sub only to the Chinese Han subs, also their sonars only could hear around 5000 yards...
@jugganaut33 assuming their sonar techs can correctly identify the transient sound a dropped torp would make
Yes, reading is "Blind Man's Bluff" by Sherry Sontag is highly recommended. One issue is that NS Rota and NAS Sigonella usually had P-3s on rotational duty. Always have to have P-3s butvvery happy to see the H-2s and HSLs getting recognition in the Sim. Also Cap, the Soviets did not realize just how loud their Nuke Boats were until it was disclosed to them in information sold to them by spies in the NSA and USN. The Alphas, Victors, Sierras were very fast submarines but were compared to NATO Nuke boats very loud. The Akulas and possible Charlie SSNs benefitted from the theft of information.
idk if this is mentioned later in the video (only at 19:00 as of time of writing), but vanilla sonobuoys only have a range of 15nm. meaning you need a unit within 15nm in order to communicate with the buoys.
I was not aware of that I'll tell the guys.
You don't always need to fire both torpedoes out of the helicopter at the submarine, they cannot shoot down your torpedoes, and a spare torpedo can be used to 'box in' fast targets like Alfas, or on other enemy submarines. Torpedoes are also 'smarter' than missiles in some ways, they will go around noisemakers and then look to re-acquire the target.
Also, submarines usually cap out at a certain speed because drag increases with v^2, which means power required for a certain speed also increases this way. In nuclear-powered submarines, power generation produces noise and thus increase detectability; and in diesel-electrics, higher power use means less time the sub can stay submerged. It is therefore a cost-to-benefit tradeoff.
^ this ^
You can turn off sonobuoys on map options , it makes viewing targets and torpedoes easier .
You don't have to keep apologizing, Cap. I like hearing about all the tedious buttons you have to press. Raises the tension. So much work... go boom!
A very fun and informative mission! I always enjoy these videos with the guys giving their thoughts on how to properly carry out the mission and how to use the resources available.
Much appreciated with ur content cap. Thanks again. I haven't seen any content creators use asroc to much and haven't seen any torpedoes launched from any ships for asw work. If u can have a episode with trying to use torps from ships like asroc and side mounted torps for asw would be cool to see. Most only use helicopters. It's fun to watch asroc and asw torps from ships being launched
I think your ships detect torpedoes on passive sonar as they make a huge amount of noise so they can be detected at long range.
You located the subs, and jumped to torpedos and forgot to continue your detection
Soooooo, couple things going on here:
The Legend car in iRacing is a couple generations older than the ones raced currently, as such these cars are *air cooled* 😂 so they're losing power EVERY lap, and if you're drafting you're losing power even quicker because clean air isn't hitting your engine
At the same time, the tank is offset to one side, and the car is live axel, so it's particularly sensitive to fuel level; driving significantly worse as it empties
Toss on not so great tires and, yeah.
iRacing is planning to do a refresh on these in a coming patch. They'll be moving to a water cooled triple with a six speed and hopefully get some decent road tires to boot.
51:20 I believe (at least till 1985ish) the British still had depth charges, and they could be dropped from helicopters. Probably for this exact same use case.
My favourite books on submarines is Sink the Belgrano by Mike Rossiter about the submarine hms Conqueror and the Falklands war but then there is the book Secrets of the Conqueror by Stuart Prebble and a top secret operation it carried out. For a modern day read you can find out a lot about how the new Royal Navy Astute class operate and their missions in the Haynes owners workshop manual.
Brill thanks.
Given how much the lessons of WW2 submarines still inform modern SW/ASW and the fact that you're interested in learning about submarines in general, allow me to recommend a game called U-Boat, a single player WW2 sub sim, very good for learning about submarine attack patterns and planning, torpedo solutions and how to evade destroyers after an attack.
The Soviet sub does seem to have been bugged with the torpedo evasion but that said, rapid changes of direction and depth can spoof even modern torpedos.
I served on the Mount Hood in '72 - '73. Caught the end of the Vietnam War and for a while after the cease fire went into effect.
When I was building speaker boxes, I'd "soft mount" the speakers to the box, using rubber grommets on the screws.
You need to drop bouys around your target to get more data and improve your solution. IRL the depth, distance before active ect would be programed to increase PK, i can only assume it would be the same in game.b
"Wouldn't other countries respond to soviets in the straight of Gibraltar?" I'd imagine the Royal Navy might have something to say about it, given the importance of the rock.
"I'm an American, I don't own a map." Fantastic line.
BTW....their is still a known glitch in the game thats causing a torps to turn away from targets at the last minute. I've been staying away from sub combat till its fixed
FYI: the Alfa was only fast. She was a noisy boat whose reactor was very noisy who depended on speed and the ability to dive VERY deep. I am not surprised she was heard. Speed is great, but I humbly submit the Victor III is a better choice for the Mediterranean. I think there was a diesel version [unarmed?] that was a testbed for the premise that was fast for a diesel boat and could dive very deep. Thank you CAP.
Thank you for doing a submarine scenario. FYI: I think CAP would be frustrated by a full blown submarine surge in the GUIK gap. :)
Should do an asw mission using the gearing and Adam’s classes so we can see the difference in modern asw vs early Cold War asw
I feel torpedoes have been doing this since the second Xmas patch.
Why not use modern torpedoes on surface ships during battle with WW2 ships
18 minutes in and I am thinking about what Doenitz said in his book. There is a strong current in the straights, so that once a U Boat got in to the Med, it was virtually trapped there.
That probably means that the "layer" doesn't exist there. Or am I wrong?
Romeo is a Diesel. First sub was a Foxtrot
The mk46 wasn't really that great in seeker design, and it wasn't until the mk50 was developed it had the capability to go after deep & fast subs like the Alfa class. Naturally budget cuts meant the mk50 was so expensive so they didn't produce any after the cold war ended, and now they have a mk54 which is a cross-breed between a mk50 seeker + mk46 body.
Romeo is diesel-electric.
Steam comments are saying sub torpedoes are bugged. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.
I appreciate this may be beyond the set up but at Gibraltar there is a massive submarine detection system in place. Could this be factored in sea power?
I was literally reading about that last night in my book. Cool.
you dont have too fire the torps directly at the subs, if you aim ahead of the sub the helo will fire at that peice of ocean you have told the helo to fire at.
26:35 i think believe they *did* model that in game, as the description of one of the Russian heli-carriers, the Moskva-class, specifically mentions that it works best in the Med, using a powerful sonar that can make use of the bottom bounce phenomena.
34:18 you're likely limited to the max speed of the slowest ship in formation.
oh you meant speeding up the game itself. that's not limited by threat, it's limited by things happening. it was probably slower so it could keep track of those two torpedoes that were still active and chasing noisemakers.
37:15 tiny gods i hope they put in the Seawolf class. "how much speed should this submarine have?" "all of it."
41:35 no Akula in game, and they're more stubby looking anyway. that's probably a Victor-3. also, there's the reason they're making so much noise. it's cavitating like a mother....
48:12 i wonder if those two torpedoes are chasing each other....? is that a thing they can do?
52:07 there is a minimum engagement distance of the mk 46 of 0.5 miles. i *think* that's a safety feature, but i could be wrong.
Blind Man's Bluff is an excellent book recommendation by Pony.
Would it have been better/possible for the Osas to have coordinated their attacks with the subs so that you were facing multiple attacks?
I'm surprised Fly didn't set up a SAM-bush on the S-2Fs with a surface element.
One tactic both sides use is for subs to hide under merchant vessels. One note on nato forces in the med, France and Italy both have capable naval assets. Unlike Canada and the UK, they have actually improved their navies. Not sure about Spain.
You should space your sonar buoys out a LOT more by at least 5 miles apart and not put them as close as you did as it's wasteful to put that many so close together. Also instead of doing SLAVO 2 of torpedoes, it's better to stagger them apart by at least 15-30 seconds.
@27:45 would you drop 2 torps at once IRL?
seems to me that they would disturb their sonar tracking for each other
Going into this with no intel... That's the GR way.
28:44 That looks like a Foxtrot, not a Romeo...
MOTM was FLY !
OK Cap, If Gibrater Dam that has been proposed several times in the past, but never built, was built and you had to get the convoy through a series of lock gates to enter the Med, how would that have affected this mission?
Discuss......
You should try the Falklands War custom scenario on the workshop using modded Royal Navy ships
I thought about it but there are proper British assets coming out, just wait for them?
True, though we don’t know how long that’s gonna be. I’ll be sure to remake the mission (or mission, gonna make a few more scenarios on the Falklands) once we get proper assets though.
@cap check out the excellent sub documentary "20,000 leagues under the sea"
Will they add the spearfish UK torp 65 knots plus?
Has pony seen the movie from 2018 hunter killer with gerard butler? And if he has seen it what does he think of it? Just curious. The movie looked pretty cool
Fly is a German right? I would think English would not be that hard for him.
Thumbs down for spilling THE BEER! Never, ever, ever, ever, never spill THE BEER!
Do you not have the nuclear depth charge variant of the ASROC?
Do the American helos have authorization to fly over Morrocco?
I bet they don't.
Blind Man's Bluff is my favorite submarine book. Check it out.
You've been doing this how long and you know what an ASROC
is?
Hey Cap, if you like subs then I'd recommend playing Cold Waters if you haven't. It is a really good 60s-2010s sub simulator that's very in-depth.
Have you thought about playing world of warships
I. R. Harpoon!
Ich bin ein Fly
Auch bin Ich.
if you British Buoy is pronnounced BOI or boy
we need a valued viewer th make a mk-56
Dumb question from American: Would this be a good tactic for the subs: Wait for the convoy to pass, then come in behind? Or are the subs too slow for that? I know exactly 0% about... well... anything. Thanks!
Sooo many factors from what I've learnt, but generally speaking I would worry about having to move so fast that we would become noisy and detectable?
@@grimreapers I was trying to think like Fly, being sneaky, but that's a good point.
W44 variant
Cap, you were wrong about RIM-156A SM-2ER Block IV. It did exist and it even was in service, just in limited numbers (only 100 missiles procured).
Its successor, RIM-156B SM-2ER Block IVa, was cancelled.
Everyone makes mistakes but it’s kind of unexplainable when you use something 100% incorrect as a tidbit.
Source:
Missile Defense Project, "Standard Missile-2 Block IV," Missile Threat, Center for Strategic and International Studies
Thanks. I seem to get a different story every one I speak to.
@@grimreapers That’s why I added my source so you can check for yourself and weigh its (and my) credibility 😁