AFDD: Fusebox arc fault face-off
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- In a last word on AFDDs… until perhaps the next one, I question some of the answers that cropped up in the comments following the prior video. I also put a Fusebox AFDD to the (not terribly orthodox) test to see if it follows the example of Hager’s device or if it favours Siemens' way of doing things.
To reiterate, I’m not saying Hager as a company, or their wares, are in any way unfit for purpose; I’m merely playing with this equipment to see if it acts in the way I expect it to. It may be my tests and expectations that are out of whack. Nonetheless, last week we saw some tripping with a Siemens model, some non-tripping with a Hager, so let’s see what happens with a third device for whatever that’s worth.
Links:
My prior video playing with the Hager and Siemens:
• AFDD: Hager's Arc Faul...
GSH Electrical on setting an MFT to perform a 250mA trip test:
• Updated Guidance on Te...
Electrician's podcast discussing AFDDs with Will from Verso:
www.youtube.co...
Affiliate links:
For a shout out in a future video, you can buy me a Pimms & Lemonade here or with the SuperThanks button:
www.buymeacoff...
My ridiculous Amazon storefront:
www.amazon.co....
£50 off YourTradeBase:
go.yourtradeba...
SumUp credit/debit card processing:
r.sumup.com/ref...
Get £40 credit for switching to Zen Internet:
zen.mention-me...
For web hosting, get £10 off at Krystal with the code DSESELECTRIC at checkout!
krystal.uk/
Recycle your scrap cable at greencable.com - use referral code GREENCABLET1ZT when setting up an account and I'll get a tenner while you get a recycling bin delivered at no cost!
For more on my video content, refer to my OnlyFans page (not really an OnlyFans page):
dses.co.uk/ind... or at dses.tv
I wonder how long the power supplies will last in these devices. And will the failure mode be repeated random tripping, or just loss of functionality. Maybe even having their very own wee arc fault moment inside.
Yes, I'd be curious to see what the supply looks like. It is possible to make relatively compact long lasting supplies, of course - we've had digital energy meters (and of course smart meters now) for decades and I haven't heard of any failure sprees, and there's plenty of single and double module active devices in industrial use.
If only we knew of someone clever who could tear one down to truly see what makes 'em tick...
@@dsesuk😂
comment from big clive , you made it dad i am so proud
Probably quite similar to the newer microcontroller-based RCDs which are fairly well proven?
Another interesting DSES production. It would be great if Big Clive did do a teardown of a couple of different brands of AFDD. I would be keen to also know what was the cause of the Fusebox one taking a second attempt before tripping. I wonder if it needs a confirmatrion of an arc to prevent false tripping.
BS 62606 (that table that David flashed up at 09:40 ) doesn't say that a device can ignore a first arc signal, and then wait to see if it happens again.
I quite like this product “myth” busting testing format myself.
Just the 20 minute Hagar rant today 😂
As the song goes, ‘red light spells danger’ 😂😂😂
great video understanding about affd different types
Fascinating watch - thanks for posting. Could you somehow repurpose your arc-chamber into a parallel arc fault generator?
I've got to wrap my hangover around how to make a parallel arc that doesn't turn into an outright short that pops off my upstream breaker!
@@dsesukjust use a resistor to limit the current. Maybe an incandescent lamp.
looks like another loney xmas for you no nigel and no xmas hager party invite
Yeah, but Siemens might send me a six-pack!
you might have a bunch of fives of hager first @@dsesuk
If they are putting electronics in there for the AFDD function, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they also used the same electronics for the RCD. Some RCDs & RCBOs already use electronics for sensing rather than being purely electromagnetic. The fact that the LED indicator indicates an RCD suggests the processor may be in charge of everything.
My description of RCD operation is simplistic; I know from my teardown of one this time last year that there's more to it. The processor will also definitely have some interfacing with it, but I doubt the processor makes any call on whether it should trip. These integrated units are probably much like my Siemens which is literally a standard RCBO with an arc fault detector bolted on. Models like the Fusebox/Hager have just been repackaged into an all-in-one device.
As regards the self-test, it will have to do some sensing of the voltage and current waveforms for AFDD'ing, it should also be able to reality-check that these inputs are in a plausible range for normal operating conditions and hence verify that the hardware is working.
I am very much in the sceptic camp for these devices. My feeling is that its screw connections that is a weak area. That could be solved by just doing away with them entirely and mandating push to terminate sprung loaded connections in switches and sockets instead. To me this is a money spinning solution to a problem wanted by manufacturers to sell more stuff.
Oh yes, David, I am member you mentioning your new board some years ago. £1300. Is Wylex brand wasn’t it?
#hagergang 😂 I'm going to test mine now. Maybe they're frantically compiling a new firmware version
Electricians such as yourself have all sorts of tools to test EV chargers are safe ,so why the manufacturer doesnt have them for these is an odd one. Well one Dave on highlighting the issue.
i wonder if the LED looking wrong is down to emergency lighting...
A handle? 😂
Doesn’t take a bright spark to work that out. The manufacturers are getting in on the game quickly and before the game rules have been written. The first to produce a genuine test is the one. Problem is the manufacturers are all together and taking turns to steer the boat. It’s always been this way. Quite clever really. 👍🏻✌🏻🇬🇧
I was a massive hager fan years ago. Then fusebox was selling half there price and i put up with the hager RCD specific test, by buying a new tester but when they reduced the price i was completely put off the fact they have been selling them at an unbelievable over priced amount. I will be fitting fusebox double pole rcbo’s on all new boards now. Good bye Hager!!
I suspect the fusebox needs 2 arc faults to register a fault (to prevent false trips) like cars and aircraft etc. Just about acceptable for an arc
My thoughts exactly.
Makes sense to me. Plugging in switchmode PSUs, they cause quite the spark when they charge their grid-side capacitor.
Morning Dave, an interesting and enjoyable presentation. Have you considered going into teaching in the future, you could start by being a NVQ assessor for a couple of days a week. Start now part time and get the local college to pay for all the qualifications. When the day comes when your knees or back has gone you can jump into teaching, you've already have the alcoholic issues mad hair and loud shirts.
I like the dress code and the idea of being acceptably pissed on the job but no, I'm not about to stand in front of a classroom of disinterested yoofs anytime soon.
@@dsesuk a NVQ assessor typically does not deliver classroom lectures. An assessor is contruction site based going round chatting with an apprentice on a 1 to 1 basis and building a NVQ portfolio with them. The highest rate I've seen with an agency is £50 hour. I was just thinking of a plan B for you when the body starts to breakdown. Couple of days assessing, get the college to pay for your electrical courses and a few days on the tools. You will have to tolerate bureaucracy at a level that is staggering.
is it safe to plug in my mains powered vibrator now?
God, you sound just like my wife.
Wylex for the win so far!
Thank you for the time taken to test these devices, keep up the great work
I miss the real life site visits that were numerous previously Dave as a non spark. What happened to your family member posh house refit ? We never got a conclusion ? I really miss Nige sorry. boring content for non sparks that im sure have followed your brilliant vids for years. sorry mate
Jeez, you're gonna hate the next one too in that case! As an electrical vlog, sometimes the content will be about the industry rather than the site work, and hey, it's hard to make that interesting for.. well... anyone. There is more to come from the Manor House; their kitchen extension was completed just last month. I just need the hours to put it together.
If I was a brand in your thumbnail I would shit myself 😂
Cheers for the beer Jimbo. I shall piss it up the wall wisely.
@@dsesuk No worries sir 👍🏻
Great Job David.
Fantastic effort presenting the information as you have. Thank you.
One thing David... The water one is perfectly valid. Who among us has NOT seen parallel arcing caused by water ingress
Thanks David. I enjoy your content. Good work 👍
Very kind of you, cheers!
That point about programming is quite an interesting one. Plugging in Switchmode power supplies will quite possibly cause quite the spark when the internal capacitor on the high voltage side gets charged, and an AFDD should let that pass.
Aside from that though, how does a "bad arc" differ from a "necessary arc"?
Duration and energy dissipation.
One thought one the Bluetooth BS in the Hager AFDD, if it's in a metal CU, per 17th Edition, then that enclosure would act like a Faraday cage that would seriously reduce or even block the Bluetooth signal entirely, so it's a bit of a chocolate firegaurd really...
You are the man, honestly, gold
love the shirt
TBH - - having these AFDs put on us as a 'piece of mind,' (at a cost) methinks I'd rather have a DSES homemade tester to make sure they work! (If Dave can make home made testers by robbing the wife of her kitchenware & daughter of her Lego, then Hager & the rest could make a better one with all the £££££££££££££s they make from their wares & test the lot)
I mean, what if those all singing/dancing Hagers are faulty somehow & people are having them fitted at a cost thinking they have protection, & - - if there is a catastrophic fault & Hager or any other make doesn't really do what it says on the tin, - - does the sparky who fitted it or the manufacturer get the blame?
On another note - - that test Hager was very - - - shall we say - - - along the same lines as the V.W. emissions scandal that had the ECU change exhaust peramiters during test. So you can understand why I'm not a fan at the moment.
P.S. Another great & infomative vid' from you Dave! (if you see Nige, tell him he's missed)
There you are I am not going mad I kept on saying on TH-cam comments that Crabtree did a push-in in terminal switch.
Bluetooth is simply Serial over Wireless. Don't over think it. There is nobneed for the Internet. But I know you already know that, but it's easy to believe these smart devices are a gimmick. Many devices use to have a Serial port for interrogation. The thing I do agree with is the question of App support, well hopefully they document the protocol so someone else can create their own. I'm pleased you are seeing some benefits. It should just be a read only data affair. You shouldn't have to log in to anywhere.
Intresting video there Davo as always.. now I'm even more curious as to the Hager being a not-fit-for-purpose item.. specially after you reminded me about the whole RCD nonsense as i had forgotten about that as i dont use Hager but if they cant even do RCD's right then what chance do they have of making a working AFDD... i really want Hager to respond now lol
Check out your TH-camr friend PhotonicInduction for ways to royally test the shit out of anything requiring an arc :-p
Its all well and good for the likes of Hager to spout that your test rig doesn't meet their specific testing criteria, but any sane member of the public would regard the angry blue pixies dancing in the arc chamber as something that should not be in your wiring. For Hager's device to just sit there and pick its nose whilst there is quite clearly something wrong is just totally nuts.
To think when I was installing Hager boards in the mid 90's they were the cheapest of the cheap and that's why they were used on the sites, how they forget their humble beginnings.
I see these things and I just think there's some brown envelopes greasing somebody's palm.
And to think you had two of the most well known brands who were selling insulated boards with a BS number on, yet failed the hot wire test, and it's been swept under the carpet, no recall no nothing.
Yeah I installed some of those crabtree switches in the late 80's
In my opinion, the reason why manufacturers will not make the sufficient test equipment for these, is because of the liability put with that piece of equipment. At least for the domestic spark.
I can imagine special custom built rack mounted gear being constructed in test labs. Imagine a very old fashioned heat lamp with those carbon rods, similar to what you find in certain batteries.
I wonder. I bet one could make such a device. A ballast and two carbon rods, adjustable to move closer together.
So its makes you wonder what a parallel arc fault looks like if its not a piece of gnawed cable that some rat has done . Please bs1761 draw us an example and shove it in the feckin book.
It's interesting to see how all afdds work differently and that they are not armour proof nice to see Mr Marsh dipping his hands in his pocket hope the old fart is doing alright
I'm sure Nige has an easy at work... even on the days when the campus isn't being blockaded by protesting students or striking lecturers.
Maybe the fusebox version assumes that the first arc is an appliance being plugged in. On the second attempt it assumes a fault?
Could be that the firmware is on the watch for repeat patterns in quick succession. Maybe the Hager does too. I'll have to test that theory now I guess!
@@dsesuk I know how much you enjoy doing this series of videos, now you have another to do ;)
The Hager AFDD is higher because it has to allow for the yellow weener 🤣🤣🤣
Great vid, so you say that AFDD's do something, but not what the manufacturer states, shame ,
John ward has competition
I was going to say the same, was watching John the other day with his new vid
I laughed until I coughed myself stupid.
Hager might not come after you but a florida man might lol
There was a nearby lightning strike this very evening. I reckon he's had a word with the higher-ups!
another classic from the AFDD man ,looking foward to the AFDD MAN NUDE CALANDER 2024
About time I got some merch on.
Is that Plessey tech gear in your racks?
Which vid shows the Siemens AFFD test?
Excellent David as always. Maybe if Hager got rid off the Bluetooth connectivity it will work?
I'm getting my clamps onto another one Sean, so I'll see if that reacts any differently. I just remembered - you left me a VM at the weekend! Sorry mate, I've been proper wrecked.
AFDD Specialist David Savery
Great demo spunk gargular
Should I buy one and try to install Linux on it.
Great video David,you’re my favourite TH-cam spark.
Well, you're my favourite commenter!
Just seen an advert for eicr. 3 bed house up to 10 circuits and p.a.t in London M25
£99 Inc vat.
How can they do it .
Has anyone experienced this . How long do they take . Is there alot of lim .
Does anyone else do them for this price
That'll be a drive-by. A visual-only (for the most part) which tells you nothing about the actual safety and condition of the installation. Any duty holder appointing them will have a 'report' with so many omissions and limitations that it won't be worth the paper it was written on and it won't get them off the hook if someone dies. There's no point in trying to compete with these scum on price. Leave 'em doing a shite job for the cheapskates.
Just brilliant.....yet again
How do I send you something? I remember in one vid a couple of years back you were interested in seeing how the regs had changed and I have a red book and onsite guide from 1985 when I did my Army apprenticeship.
Address deets are on the website Shaun. Your books sound interesting!
You do know you will have to do every brand new now! It can be included in the product standard and marketing! As passed by David Savery.
I don't have enough 'sobriety time' for them all Mark!
Keep it up… love the channel
Watched a efixx video on youtube where Lewden was testing Their Afdd and the Guy said the Standard is an Arc from Copper to a Carbon rod The Rig they showed was Basically a Micrometer adjustment against a Carbon rod with a load of approx 5Amp, Although i Still think the Hager should trip in your example.
You just know the brands big wigs will be watching and sweating in hope they do work, coz no doubt they won’t know either 😂
Thanks for update. Hager had nowt to say. Like all these politicians when it gets sticky. Inspires confidence
Nigel was my afdaddy 😔
So, what things are most likely to need an afd when they go wrong, washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer.... I think the water test is one I would expect the afd to cover. Quite supprised it does not. Great vlog, very interesting.
I quite like the fact that the Fusebox AFDD doesn't trip immediately. It should reduce false positives!
Blue for 'on'?
Like we see on loads of electronic devices....and looks kool.
Red for fault, perhaps amber for a fault that has not been affirmatively cleared e.g. via a positive button press or some sort of electronic reset to be administered by a sparky?
Try some pencil lead for parallel arc, Busbar when not cleaned get arc's from left over cutting pencil marks.
Just thought of another test you could try on these AFDD’s. Will they detect arcs at the breaker itself, say said sparky didn’t torque it correctly?
You'll still get the Hager loving Fusebox hating electricians that will argue that Fusebox aren't here to stay.
Hand one of them to me Dave! I'm yet to make my stack of videos on AFDDs and I know who cool the fuckers are!
I wonder if you could trip off an AFDD by playing with the switch on a socket or light switch? A light switch probably doesn't have enough current flowing through it though. An old dirty socket switch with a heater on it being switched slow might get a bit of arcage?
Rubbing wires together to fool the thing is tricky. I tried it in my original 2018 video and in the end I could only trip it with the addition of salt water. The arc chamber seems to work reliably with the brass stop ends acting as a wider point of contact.
@@dsesuk I suppose it would be really annoying if it was to trip off at every switch contact arc. Maybe why the Fusebox unit ignores the first go.
Current threshold for AFDD - 2.5 A. We have to start with that. Creating a stable arc in a circuit breaker is very difficult. There should be no tripping.
Effectively they are asking people to put in a protective device that can’t be tested.
When you’ve demonstrated something arcing that’s didn’t trip it I wouldn’t spend my money on it, especially since it dosnt offer any additional functionality for the power consumption and the associated ever increasing electric cost and the initial cost.
This whole update seems to be more aimed at making sure people have to pay more than something that is actually 100% functional.
The trouble is if you cant test the functionality of a afdd then how as a tester can you sign off on it 🤷♂️ seems like a bad idea in terms of liability😅
You cannot easily confirm the correct operation of MCBs. But you can (destructively) with fuses.
Actually there is an Indian TH-cam video where someone "tests" a line of MCBs by poking a well bared neutral wire into the outputs. I suspect equally destructive. But when he panned out the chain of scraps of flex leading to the socket across the room probably limited the fault current.
Seems essentially we as installers are expected to trust manufacturers software Does in fact comply with 60626 and we take it on face value, much like the guidance to test rcd’s at ac type and x1 and it a up to the manufacture to ensure operation at x5 ????
I think the 0.4ms trip time requirement are to do with the heart cardiac cycle time. I think it is meant to be a half an average cycle time
I've assumed it to be the time it takes for a 50 Hz 230 V sine wave to change from zero to 50 V.
@@westinthewest well as a whole cycle of mains takes 20msec, there being 50 of them in second, 0.4 seconds is actually 20 full cycles ! Sergio is right, the time is set to avoid the onset of ventricular fibrillation in a shock of about 150V. - expected in a TN system, with approx equal L- and E resistances. For a 250V shock, e,g TT system, the current is higher, and the time shorter, by a factor of about 2. Mike
@@mikep-j894 Oops. I was thinking about the 40 ms RCD trip time, but you're right - even 40 ms is the period for two complete 50 Hz cycles.
I think the rise time of the sine wave is the reason why disconnection time graphs like Fig 3A4 in BS 7671 show 10 ms at the bottom of the Y-axis (the time for half a cycle). That's about the minimum period where you can get consistent energy let-through regardless of the start/end phase position.
The graph on page 2 of Crabtree's data sheet file:///D:/6HS32C-data.pdf has the same minimum 0.01 s.
Thanks for making me get the big book out :-)
just for that balls from hager, I wont use their products. good job boys.
Great video old chum. What we need when testing is a good old fashioned gas leak to add a bit of spice to the test…. I’ll get me coat 😂
But there isn't actually a real set standard for AFDDs, as you have shown David. Madness.
Good to see you on Saturday, thanks for the shout out, glad you like the SL lamp and especially that badge, saw it on eBay and immediately thought of you, can't think why 🤣
Hope to see the cats next time we're passing
Love it😊😂
I may have missed it, but did you run your test with RCBOs? Obviously they shouldn't trip with those test, but I wondered whether any of them produce enough noise to trip other forms of circuit protection.
I've not tested with RCBOs themselves, but these AFDDs are RCBOs to BSEN61009 with an arc fault detector tacked on.
@@dsesuk indeed,but I wondered whether it's the RCBO component that's throwing up issues, Hager has a history with RCBs, was just curious whether it was related.
Handle = feel or manipulate with hands . I would take your Hager Johan of arc detector to bed as it may help you trip off . 😄
Wouldn't be the first time I've manhandled my handle.
@@dsesuk Too much information, David 🤣
for a paralell arc test would using a couple of lengths of cpc connected by wago's and placed close enough together for the electrons to jump at a relatively safe low voltage or perhaps in a unit so you can crank up the amperage :)
Keep up the good stuff mate...you make watching dry subjects.....very moist ;)
Thanks once again old fruit, I'm always happy to moisten you up!
40:15 If you want to be sure of the production date of that SL18, look at the base. There will be a symbol and a letter and a digit somewhere. The symbol denotes the plant of manufacture, the letter and digit are a datecode. The letter and digit are swapped around every decade. E.g. C2 would have been March 1982. 2C would have been March 1992. After that C2 would become March 2002 etc. If your SL18 truly is of 1996, it should start with a 6. Since it has a white base and is packaged in a square box, it must be a more recent version. Older versions would have had a black base and a hexagonal package. Even later versions would have been more compact while still using the magnetic ballast. In my country (NL) this was the first iteration of what would become the CFL.
This was during the Philips years, and customer support in those years explained this code to me. Now it's become Signify and who knows what coding schemes they use now.
Yes, it was my mistake - TestGearJunkie had marked the box correctly as October 1986. I must have misheard when they told me!
Even Billy Ocean had "red light spells danger" for f sake...ha
One question....We install them...and have to sign off on their efficiency...with no way to test their efficiency....and prove they actually work on-site.....and may name is on the line on the cert....???? Will the manufacturers stand up and be counted if the Fire Chief says it was caused by an undetected Arc Fault...?
If you've installed a device into a type-tested enclosure where it's all torqued up, rated for the wiring used and fitted to the manufacturers' instructions, then the onus will be on the equipment rather than the installer should something not do its intended job with catastrophic consequences. If there's a fire that's destroyed the CU though, it may be hard to prove it had been correctly installed.
So I couldn't remember the brand the other week for when I used to work in the states (Texas/Cali). It's Leviton that have wireless updating Arc Fault Breakers and Span have whole house monitoring. The also have app connectivity so breakers can be turned off remotely from your phone and other things that have been updated since I moved back to the UK. They are leaps and bounds ahead of our gear and I really recommend checking them out.
The USA is leaps and bounds ahead of us? please. Maybe in gimmicks. Whole house monitoring is available in the UK, doing CH, alarms, lights, etc. Not new. Their stuff is 1940s. They have *two* voltages going into a home. Their Lego type of plugs are frightening.
Evening David…..Monday funday….with sparky parts , 👍😜👌🇮🇲😂
It was supposed to be out yesterday for some Sunday Funday, but I couldn't get it together in time Andy.
The reply from the un-named test instrument manufacturer was informative, but describing test currents as 'really high' (3:38) doesn't inspire confidence. So, as you can see, explanations executed in the right way are really critical for our reassurance [sic].
He wasn't their technical representative and was relaying information his bods had passed on I think Charles.
A Philips SL18? Now that's a piece of history. They also did SL20's for ones with screw in fittings I think. They used to use them in lifts around where I used to live for their long life and energy efficiency, which turned out not to be the brightest of things to do as when 'people' found out how expensive they were, 'people' used to nick, and sell them to the local electrical shop.
For AFDD's, might be snake oil, but if I was doing and install in the house of a family member, for the sake of a few extra quid I'd have no qualms about putting them on the electric shower, kitchen and ring circuits. Well, the fusebox ones anyway, those fkin Hager ones will likely need the house remortgaged to pay for them.
Philips SL lamps were made in 9, 13, 18 & 25W ratings, with both BC and ES caps. The earlier 1st gen ones had black bases, the 2nd and 3rd generation had white bases. Although I would not want to be sitting underneath one in a pendant BC lampholder if one of the locating pins gave way, the things weigh a ton 😵💫
You should start charging people like mainley electrics on you tube. £8.99 a month for advice on faults etc surely a one way ticket to someone unskilled getting hurt
Oh, good grief no. He's quite welcome to be taking support calls if that's what he wants to do! I'm quite happy to engage with comments, but I don't want my phone or inbox pinging in with technical queries! It would get right in the way of my drinking time!
The fuse box diag led should really have the same length of signalling with the mark / space padded to the fault. Five flashes without a pause meaning one flash five times is poor coding.
Could you build a reproducible parallel arc by very slowly winding a pair of sooty stop ends together across the line/neutral with a decent load plugged in wouldn’t trip the rcd and you could add a second resistive 100w bulb load in series with the stop ends to avoid an overcurrent on that path.
If you're including loads in the circuit to limit the current on your parallel arc, doesn't it become a series arc?
I have to state that I haven't given this much thought, so please explain slowly if you feel inclined to reply.
24:45 I think by the time you get there. Every button, switch etc will be touched operated a numerous times anyway. So dont think a fault signal we be there anyway.
Maybe, but with Wylex/Crabtree it has to be manually reset by pushing the indicator - most wouldn't know the light itself is a reset button. I think they should all have a function where the last trip fault can be recalled. I guess that is one thing Hager's model does sport. Holding down the Test button with the handle off recalls the last event even if you don't have the Bluetooth app.
I'm eagerly awaiting the Schrack and Schneider tests!
I live in a property owned by a housing association (flagship) and about four months ago my fusebox was upgraded with a new crabtree one but the spark only put AFDD's on the ring circuit and radials. and maybe the cooker and water heater....I forget and I'm too lazy to go look right now. Anyway I have had one false trigger in that time, not long after the installation, but it's only happened that once.
What colour flash did u get
I've only just started watching but I had to chuckle at SpewTube inflicting an ad from NICEIC on me telling me that they were some sort of guarantee of quality workmanship. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
That's why we need metal enclosures and AFDDs.....
2:0 RoW vs Hager!
I wonder if it doesn't trip the first time as if to simulate a switch being turned on and ignores it as contact wear, then the second time is as though the appliance is on and arcing away.
That first arc event was pretty prolonged, then tripped immediately on the second go. That would seem like a flaw.
The crabtree wago switch...early 80s...they're fitted in my Auntie's flat built in 1980
Looks euro ?
Yes but to UK box size...euro boxes smaller