Romana's Original Darker Exit | Doctor Who Unmade
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- Did you know that Doctor Who Companion Romana almost returned to Gallifrey in her final story? Hear about the unmade Fourth Doctor story 'Sealed Orders' here!
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Sealed Orders sounds really interesting but a bit beyond the budget for Doctor Who. It reminds me of Killers of the Dark from Season 15, also being Gallifrey based and very, very ambitious in terms of scope, with its giant gladiator colosseum and armies of cat people. The Enemy Within sounds a lot more achievable, and a bottle episode with the Season 19 crew sounds really interesting, considering how argumentative and snappy they could be with each other, there's a lot of possibility for good character work there. I think it actually had some set up in Castrovalva when the Doctor and Adric are wandering around the TARDIS and the Doctor becomes more terrified the deeper they go.
Im loving this new era of Josh Snares, new videos all the time on a variety of topics. I hope Josh never goes away again. Love you Josh!
It sounds very interesting, as Romana's exit does feel a little rushed and I also think her returning to Gallifrey and becoming President suits her nature. I get the fact that once she had been travelling with the Doctor, that opened her eyes to the universe and I can understand she was very reluctant to give that up.
Sealed Orders sounds interesting - what with the time travel paradox(ironically hardly ever used in DW - with exceptions like Mawdryn Undead).
In 2008 I purchased my last Target Novel (at the time) - Mindwarp - from a guy on ebay called Stephen Crannington. He claimed that he was selling WHO items that were from the estate of Gary Downie - JNT's partner. He said he had boxes of TARGET novels that had come from the WHO Production Office, and that he had lent a large number of scripts to the BBC for the production of the DVD extras, but he would be putting them on eBay too when they were returned. So... I guess all I'm saying is - possibly the scripts were sold at that point in time... if they did indeed exist.
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Forgive my memory... I sort of verified my Mindwarp as legitimate via the folks on GallifreyOne - JNT and Gary had a good friend, Stephen Cranford, who did receive JNT/Downie's WHO collections. Presumably he used a slight variation of his surname on eBay. So - I do own a copy of Mindwarp that was originally JN-T's! :)
Sealed Orders sounds more like a conclusion for the Fourth Doctor than Romana. It makes sense - JNT was considering bringing back Sarah Jane or Leela to act as a familiar face and bridge to the new Doctor. And the Doctor dying at the end, it easily could’ve been a regeneration story.
I must congratulate you Josh, your videos are great.
Sealed Orders sounds great, but not unlike, as you say, Invasion of Time
I do think Warriors Gate was a good story for Romana to go out on
Presumably once the quest for the Key To Time was over, she could and would have returned to Galifrey, but obviously she didn't want to
Definitely Sealed Orders as I loved Lalla Wards Romana. Her return in The Apocalypse Element was great fun. I’d love to see that visually!!
The idea of the Doctor being ordered to kill his companion sounds meaty on the surface, but this is a character who's always valued his friends more than any authority, and despises taking orders. There isn't really any situation where it has teeth.
I think the most you could get out of it is to have an incarnation more like the 7th use the orders as inspiration for a completely different scheme.
I definitely prefer Warriors' Gate for Romana's exit because it demonstrates her character development -- the Romana of The Ribos Operation would never have stayed behind in E-Space -- and particularly how being around the Doctor made her a kinder person in her own way. It's rushed but I still think it's very sweet.
Having a Gallifrey story where she stays behind wouldn't show who she's become in the same way, and it would feel like a repeat of Leela's exit.
While you are right for the most part I would like to clarify something. While the Doctor would hate having to kill any of his friends or companions he will if there is no other option (see 5 and kamelion)
@@neptune04 That's true, but he'd never do it because someone else told him to.
The question of him following the order is still moot before it's even asked.
@@SplotchTheCatThing On the orders part I agree.
Fantastic dive into these unmade stories! Awesome work, Josh! Thank you!
Sounds interesting although with the exception of _Deadly Assassin_ and the courtroom scenes and finale of _The Trial of a Time Lord_ I don't find Gallifrey-centric stories terrifically engaging. On the flip-side, I do like _Warriors Gate._ The shrinking spacial anomaly, the moral ambiguity of the time-walking Tharils who were once oppressors only to become slaves themselves, the increasingly desperate human slavers, it all felt very cool to me as kid watching it.
and yet somehow Horns of Nimon got approved and made.
I am glad that we did get Shada in all of its multifaceted shards.
The Adams serial that nearly was. What am I saying, I've the DVD with Tom Baker filling in the gaps & the book. Yeah, at least we got something.
Good points. I too wish there had been a full Shada "episode", but I am also grateful for what was eventually made of that Douglas Adams writing.
Both stories sound interesting, but I suppose "Sealed Orders" is the one I'd prefer to have seen made as we get to see Leela again, and Romana gets back to Gallifrey.
the correct answer
Anything that would show more of Gallifrey, and how Romana returned would have been great! I still miss the Fourth Doctor (aka "The Curator") and Romana...
Sealed Orders sounds like a good idea, but not for the 4th Doctor. Maybe the later 7th Doctor, or even the 12th Doctor, but 4's character at season 17 would deflate the story, robbing the edge that it could go for.
I agree, but it might've worked in Season 18, especially in the finale arc. He was a bit darker and more sombre then.
I can't wait for Big Finish to make them and me not to buy them because I'm broke.
😭😭😭
Well if they make it hopefully they do it while Lalla is still with us.
If Big Finish makes it, I'll get the bootleg.
People BUY Big Finish audiobooks???
@ if they didn't they wouldn't be in business lol
I love Warriors Gate - it looks sublime, and the concepts are great. Romana is effectively leaving to become her own Doctor, and free enslaved Tharils - if they had made Sealed Orders, it would have been the Gallifrey looking like Arc, or 5 Docs with plasticy sets and little fountains. The concept of Sealed Orders sounds awesome though, and the 'Kill Romana' (was that signposted in Full Circle too?? Did the Doctor deliberately go into the CVE to avoid his orders??) would have been a very strong message in the already more serious and dark season. Would have been great to see Louise J again although where she would have got off again in Season 19 having seen the regeneration in would have been interesting. I'm guessing she and Lis Sladen's space was taken by Nyssa?
Sealed Orders and The Enemy Within sound right down my alley in terms of Doctor Who- but I wouldn't sacrifice anything from Season 18 to see them made (its my favourite ever!!!!)
Both sound super interesting! I hadn't heard about either story! Good video, as always, Josh!
1:46 Yeah he pretty much just summed up the entire show.
I think about Romana all the time and how they'd bring her back.
Must admit the plot outlines don't sound as good as _Warrior's Gate,_ and whilst the idea of Romana left in E-Space and the Doctor unable to meet her sounds contrived the B&W background shots is probably the best use of CSO in the series.
I also liked that story. And nothing JS says here really alters my preference!
This was a great & fascinating video!
Christopher Priest's characterisation of Dr Who fans is hilarious
Bang on though. 😂
He knew this already back then ...
Sealed orders Is interesting because its actually playing around with time travel abit with the other doctor it is strange that stories set on the planet of the TIMElords never really use time travel as a big plot hook in them most of the time
If made it probably would've been Moffat's favourite classic story haha
From what I've seen, most script-writers haven't much of a clue about its implications and how to work them into a decent DW script. "Joy" is not a bad attempt. The Xerons and their Space Museum worked, because it was the aftermath that mattered.
I swear, Big Finish is gonna announce they're doing one of these stories for the unannounced Lost Story this year. It'd be really funny timing!
I bet you anything they don’t!
Hopefully if they decide to do it its while Lalla is still around she is not getting any younger.
Awesome video Josh. You always leave me with mind blowing what if moments ❤
I’ve always thought Romana’s departure in “Warriors Gate” was an ideal starting point for a Romana spin-off show, she had K9 with her and apparent capability to duplicate the TARDIS (a handy excuse for keeping the police box if so inclined). Could easily have a made a series or two with her exploring E-space before venturing off elsewhere.
To be honest I loved Warriors Gate and thought Romana's exit was perfect.She states to the Fourth Doctor that she doesn't want to return in her room.Going back to Gallifrey a third time after Deadly Assassin and Invasion Of Time would of been tiresome but that's just my opinion.I also remember reading Liz Sladen was considered to appear in Logopolis.Thanks Josh loved this video, learnt stuff I didn't know.
Thanks for mentioning Elisabeth Clara Heath - Sladen. I am still glad she came back to do _The Sarah Jane Adventures_
r. i. p. to one of the top DrWho companions, ever.
I wasn't aware of any of this, so thanks. Great vid
I loved the idea of a menace in the Tardis when I was younger, a hitch-hiker like in Masque of Mandragora or something. The whole adventure would uncover rooms and areas of the Tardis not shown before, like in Invasion of Time. The Doctor’s Wife explored this but left me wanting.
Most intriguing. Mind you, "Warrior's Gate" was an amazing story so we shouldn't complain. 😊
I’d of loved to see this but the budget would likely have been a stretch. Romana is one of my favourite companions especially romana 2 and her exit in warriors gate was a bit off and one that the vnas were very quick to retcon with her returning to Gallifrey not long after, her time in the Gallifrey series is soooo good and I’d recommend it to anyone it’s up there with torchwood as doctor who’s best spin off
That was a very interesting video Josh! I think that 'The Enemy Within' possibly would've worked more, particularly seeing the 5th Doctor afraid of something, rather than always seeming "completely on top of the situation". Possibly he could be more like the 5th Doctor's flashback to the 2nd Doctor in Castrovalva! 😏
"We must be close to the main TARDIS drive now." I could absolutely see 5 playing this story well, and it could have basically fed on from Castrovalva.
@@The-Cosmic-Hobo Absolutely that's how it would follow on! 👍🏻
Thank you for another great video. It would have been cool to see Romana and Leela in some sort of intrigue on Gallifrey.
I think the ending we got was probably better, I prefer the idea that she could go on to become her own Doctor and make her own path, making her president feel unwarranted for her case sense I felt she was more interested in the wanderlust then any sign where given power would really make for a good character development arc for her. I think an open ending of being lost in an other reality is a way better ending for her
That story sounds Mental. I would loved to have seen it
Definitely liked to have seen Sealed Orders. It feels like some of the ideas eg the tardis within a tardis made it into other episodes eg Logopolis.
'Sealed Orders' sounds like a brilliant story, I would love to see it made somehow 🤔
I'm loving these recent looks at what might have beens
Loved this exploration. Would love for you to do an exploration into the writers’ need to destroy Gallifrey. Either the Time Lords are all evil or the planet is completely obliterated. Why do they Time Lords not use their powers of time travel and ability to look into the future to prevent their continual demise? What happened to the powerful Time Lords who cut off planets from time and space and dematerialized enemies? Or Rassilon who should e been off planet when the Master converted the Time Lords to Cyberman?
Good questions! I do wish some writer(s), would sometime do a little more of some proper adventures on Gallifrey - in place of the Time Lords being portrayed as "evil" or being in peril of destruction (but I do like how they have been sometimes portrayed as a "nemesis" to the Doctor himself).
There's the reality of what actually got made, & then there's fantasising about what might have been. I'm simply grateful for all the classic years serials existing just as they are. 👍🏻
I mean, look at what happened to the show, & division in the fandom under Chibnal & RTD2.
🤯
Such great stories that never made it to production - there is so much more to be written and produced for Dr who, the future looks bright 🎉
Sealed Orders, let Big Finish do it justice and give a fitting end to Romana as well as finally showcasing Priest's talent.
The both story lines sound quite interesting
Sealed Orders for me.
I would want both and that was crazy when I heard about Sealed Orders.
We have no idea how much pf DW's potential was destroyed by meddling people with huge egos
Sealed Orders! I want to see more of Romana and Leela
I’m sorry I do like the idea of finality of what we saw. I saw it as a new beginning and the possible start of a new race of time, lords in another universe beginning. I like new things arriving and branching off, creating all new civilizations rather than always going back to the same center.
One thing you can say about Christopher Priest is that he understood fandom! I have heard people comparing the early 80's Who to a soap opera - and it was.... behind the scenes. At least half of being a devotee back then - as now - was wanting the lowdown on what was going at the production level. I mean, I couldn't tell you who was working on a lot of shows, but on this one it seems to matter. Saward's comments are, of course, a nonsense. Blakes 7 managed to wrangle two scripts, from the page to the screen, out of Tanith Lee. It really comes down to what does or doesn't fit. I suspect the real source of the irritation came from Warriors Gate and the trouble they had on that.... ironically!
The Enemy Within sounds great and sounds very similar to the way the Eye Of Harmony was used in the 8th Doctor movie... which carried the unused title of: THE ENEMY WITHIN... Bum bum baaaa! 😮
What I take from that is Chris Priest thought about a TARDIS within a TARDIS, suggested it to Douglas Addams and Chris Bidmead absorbed it and worked it into Logopolis, yet oddly never took umbridge with Eric or JN-T , so either no one pointed it out to him, which is poss as not being a fan of the show or Chris Bidmead could 'sell' the idea to the production team for S18 and no one worried about the similarities.
A pity these stories didn’t get adapted as novels written by Priest
I would have made the Fugitive Doctor the Fifth or Sixth incarnation of Romana who fled from Gallifrey after the Time War taking on the title of the Doctor in remembrance of her former mentor whom she believed to have perished in the Time War
that is an extremely interesting idea. perhaps turn it into a fanfic at the very least?
I disagree. I think that staying in the E-space made a better ending,er, rather start for Romana stepping fully into a TimeLord position. No longer under anyone's shadow and able to make all the calls she likes as the only TimeLord there...even better than getting stuck in charge of that stuffy set of bureaucrats (the Doctor fled that job and she'd spent too much time under his wing to be happy with it either, I think).
"The Enemy Within"! For me it has a interesting plot!
Interesting. But Doctor does have some outstanding episode's. Some genuinely scary and moving scripts. Doctor Who has scared the pants off me a number of times.
Also, lovef the actress who played Romana in Hammer"s Circus of the Vampires.
Great video.
Wow, I'm loving the quality of this video! What sort of software did you use to make this?
Photoshop and Premiere!
If either were to be made, my preference would be Sealed Orders
Sealed Orders sounds like a far more interesting exit story for Romana than Warriors Gate, I do wish they had made it in some form because it makes a LOT more sense!
Some companion departures have been less-than-satisfying over the years… but I think Warriors Gate was an excellent (if unorthodox) story to see Romana off. The idea of her left to explore E-Space with K-9 seems fitting. If she wanted to return to N-Space, I think she could find a way… but that’s not her priority.
I've read a couple of Priest's novels ("The Space Machine" & "The Quiet Woman") both good and it's a shame he never got to work on "Doctor Who".
I hope these stories get turned into audio adaptations
It's interesting that both Priest's stories would have paradigm-shifting. The reliance on revealing something hitherto unknown about a Doctor Who concept seems like something a particular kind of fan writer (*cough* Chibnall *cough*) would do, although they'd be doing to make their mark on the series. Even though Sealed Orders seems fairly compelling. I'm glad we got Warrors' Gate instead, even if I didn't really like Romana leaving (or the Doctor suddenly becoming over-concerned about what the Time Lords wanted and telling Romana there was no point in defying them in Full Circle - not that Romana was even mentioned in later stories!). It's still a very good strange story.
In the novels, Romana becomes a third incarnation and she becomes nasty and war like, becoming an enemy to the 8th Doctor and with the result of she and Gallifrey being destroyed.
The Doctor receiving orders to kill Romana sounds majorly off. There would have to be major in story explanation as to why.
Would’ve been really cool to see leela romana and Sarah Jane share screen time, never really did stuff like that in the classic series other than anniversary specials.
This needs to be a @bigfinish story...
Enjoying these looks into lesser known unmade Doctor Who unmade stories. I guess one I'll mention is Farewell Great Macedon, which would have been one of those Hartnell historical epics. Maybe if Marco Polo didn't make it, Alexander the Great would have instead? (And the one companion episode)
I started to watch this episode earlier today, and actually stopped it, because I kinda got thinking about watching Romana's last episode as a teenager in the 90s, and how disappointing it all was. I don't really remember anything about the episode, probably wasn't enjoying it even before I knew it was her last.
But, I shook of those Ghosts of Warrior's Gate and I'm back to watch now! 😆
This sounds like it would have been a MUCH better ending for Romana, than what we got with Warriors Gate.
Sealed Orders!
Regarding Tardis consciousness - f rom "Edge of Destruction", then the first episode of"Wheel", then "The Doctor's Wife" , and yes, " Journey To The Centre...", we get a good clear sense of that 10D awareness that runs the Tardis.
No need for some simplistic 'blob' horror trope!
I love the sound of this story- and have always loved the Romana character. Big Finish's 'Gallifrey' arc has always been my favourite thing that they have ever done, and I am glad that they served the Romanas well. I have a great fondness for Bidmead's approach to Doctor Who - it felt much more 'grown up' and darker- probably why I will always prefer Blakes Seven over Doctor Who: Logopolis is a masterpiece.
They should have brought Romana back from E-Space in the new run, rather than messing with the lore & making it so Timelords can change sex now. Would've made so much more sense. I always thought it was a little odd that she wandered off like that but she was a younger Timelord, so I thought of it like she was backpacking. I really wish they'd made Sealed Orders, it sounds quite dark. Great video, never come across you before (sorry). The algorithm God's are fickle like that, so I've subbed now 😊
Interesting find, would love to have seen Sealed Orders made (I do like Warrior's Gate but Romana leaving on Gallifrey makes more sense and reuniting with Leela would've been great and an even clearer set up for the Gallifrey series). Just also feel the need to recommend Gallifrey to anyone who hasn't listened to it, it's by far Big Finish's best series imo, consistently very good. O K
Romana could have left at the end of the Key to Time season and following the completion of the Key to Time quest, The Time Lords order The Doctor to return Romana to Gallifrey and Romana is to go back to the Time Lord Academy.
I'd still buy a novelization of either of these based on Priest's notes. Not that it would ever happen.
Thought that said Dexter edit so confused
Wow the doctor who production team do not come across well in this story. Imagine yelling at one of your writers over the phone over YOUR miscommunication
It's sad that it was really just bad timing that ruined the chances because even if the story was too novel like I am sure that a little collab would have smoothed out the kinks.
I hope that the scripts do survive and that BF are able to convince the estate to let them adapt it even just to stick it to the people that thought it wouldn't work.
yeah it seems as though if Douglas Adams had stayed he would have been able to work with Priest to make it work as a script.
I may be misremembering this but I use to watch the animated version of Sharda on the BBC website where they used Paul MacGans doctor and I'm sure Romana ws president of Gallifrey in that. So it sounds like yhey went with that arc for her.
Also, if they intendended on going with the idea of the doctor being half human (on his mothers side) from the Paul MacGan movie I thought it would be cool if Leela was her, since she leaves the Doctor for a Time lord.
They'd gotten shut of her, that's all that mattered.
Just shows you just how much better Doctor Who could be given more reign in the Sci-Fi realm.
You cannot change the timeline! 😱
I will be more interested to know about The Enemy Within on Doctor Who.
I miss the days Time Lords good and bad could show up and Gallifrey could be visited. Russell sucks for removing that option.
As much as I adore Lalla Ward's Romana, I don't feel like another Gallifrey episode at that time. So, I'd rather The Enemy Within.
Also, I really wish they had kept Romana in E-Space, doing adventures there because it could have been a whole separate Doctor Who mythology over there.
As an aside, I kind of wish for whenever the next time they get rid of Gallifrey, for it to come back with a completely different species of Time Lords - the Minyans (from Underworld). Furthermore, they revere a barely remembered and mythologized Leela due to the events of Underworld, mirroring how Doctor 4 became the titular "Face of Evil" in Leela's own introductory story.
I just feel like they could do so much be rebooting the Time Lords themselves, with the Minyans inheriting the role of their "gods".
Sealed Orders sounds very interesting. I also want to know what the Doctor did to make Romana choose to stay behind....
0:35 Oh no - not again!
Poor Romana
She's canonically in the top 1% of Gallifreyan society. Hardly poor.
@@HOTD108_ Indeed - and she got a triple first at the academy. 😉
Always loved Romana (particularly the Lalla Ward version). I remember a lot of my friends were outraged when it was decided Time Lords could now change their sex...and they struggled to cope when the Master (then the Doctor) were turned into women. But I'll admit my inner child was even more shaken by the thought that Romana may well have been a man (or, indeed, various men) in the past.
And change races….
"Sealed Orders" sounds interesting and I wouldn't mind seeing that story. "The Enemy Within" I'm not so sure about. I wish more stories were set in the TARDIS but a monster as the power source sounds wrong. After the power source I could go along with, but replacing the Eye Of Harmony with a living creature just wouldn't work for me.
2:00 how did he talk like a Reddit post from the future!?
Mmmm 🤔 OK Josh you've just nominated yourself for your next animation project 😂
🏆
NuWho production team wishing they had followed their predecessor’s advice and not hired a novelist *cough* Neil Gaiman *cough*
Do you have any citations or reliable sources for all these statements, besides social media?
Yes - check the credits!
I don't want to sound like those fans but nearly 20 years and this fanbase seems to not have changed! If Priest knew the delicacy that writing one page of dialogue could piss of Doctor Who fans, he obviously would've seen it coming and he did see it as he died last year. Last year, last week exactly! Aaah, no novelists, 2010s and they used Neil Gaiman, with what he's going through now, we gonna get another novelist 2030s or not.
JNT always sounds like a right screaming queen, DW became so camp & a bit too silly for my tastes under his tenure