I’ve never written a youtube comment but feel totally compelled to write one today. First of all, THANK YOU Zac and Chris for an excellent debate! One of the things I loved about this video was the tone. I long to have these types of discussions regarding the text. Passionate but respectful. I tend to think that Zac made a better argument (but I might be bias from watching past videos), but I think Chris did an excellent job presenting his point of view and he made me consider where he was coming from. Clearly, Chris knows the text and he came across as a man who walks in humility. For me, watching this debate was like a breath of fresh air. It is possible for people to talk! I feel sharpened, challenged and better equipped to live out the text. So interesting being an observer watching these two wrestle out their convictions. I would be so grateful if these two would continue to debate in the future so I and others could benefit. Blessings in Messiah!
Zach supported his beliefs better, but he didn't mention the marriage covenant and the 4 stages or that the Father annulled this when his bride whored after other gods. Zach also was too reactive. I understand why he was, but part of a debate is allowing the opponent to finish his train of thought prior to responding. Lots of reacting was going on.
"Is any man called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any man called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God is everything. Let each man remain in the same condition in which he was called." 1 Cor 7:18-20
+evanm076 I know, isn't it cool. We can still disagree and love each other. Ultimately we are waiting for Him to come and set all things straight. Love God and our neighbor. These are the weightier matters.
+evanm076 We are now under a better covenant, based on better promises, with a better mediator. Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (We are no longer under the Sinai covenant mediated by Moses.) Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. (The Sinai covenant had to be replaced.) Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. (The New Covenant would not be like the Sinai Covenant. They broke the Sinai Covenant and God no longer considers them under it.) Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (In the New Covenant He puts His Holy Spirit inside of us.) Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (The Sinai Covenant is now obsolete.) We are to let go of the Old Covenant of bondage, based on Galatians chapter 4. Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. Gal 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Gal 4:27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband." Gal 4:28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. Cast out the Old Covenant.
+SpotterVideo looking at the context, it seems to me we are talking about the priesthood. The old was based on the flesh, which started with Aaron and his sons, which was corrupt and has passed away. But now it is according to the Spirit, our Messiah, in the order of Melchizedek. Our Savior is now the mediator of our faith with our Father. The only way we can approach and commune with Him is thru the redemptive blood of our perfect sacrifice, our perfect role model for following our Fathers instructions, our Savior. Not the letter of the instructions, but the raised bar of the spirit of HIs Holy Instructions, His Word, His Torah. ie not the physical act of adultery, but even thinking about it in your heart is sin.
+Marty Pankey In discussing the issue with others recently it has become clear that some want to make the New Covenant either a renewal or a fulfillment of the Sinai covenant. However, based on Gal 3:16 it is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Galatians chapter 3 makes it clear that the promise to Abraham came before the Sinai covenant. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (The Sinai covenant was added 430 years after the Promise to Abraham.) Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (The Sinai Covenant was added because of trangressions until the Seed(Christ) could come.) ........................................................................ 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I am very new to Torah having only seen the light in the past few months. Thank you both for your comments. I am sure that we should follow the law as best we can. These talks and debates help. If more people would bring their differences and concerns to the table in this formate the world could be a much better place.
The best "challenger" I've seen so far. Hardly any interruptions, understood the technicalities on why each party disagreed and great topic development. All in all this is the video that made me go back to scripture the most. Great stuff guys. #bringchrisback
you by far are one of the most respectful debaters i have seen. its awesome to see that we can talk about the worth through different view points and still be respectful. God bless you Zach
Great debate, I love when two people both bring knowledge rather than ego to the table. We are hear to sharpen eachother, not run over each others ideas to prove who is the victor. Thankfully Eloheim Loves us to the point that he Renewed the Covenant, that was the fulfillment that showed just how much he loves us and should inspire us to follow his Law. That kind of Love proves that his boundaries are good and have our best interest in mind.
Talking about the book of Hebrews it says in hebrews 10:28 that we should not disregard the Torah! Live as your messiah lived, He kept the Law (instructions) therefore we should keep the Torah! Shalom
I would like to see Chris in future videos. A good topic would be which humans are participants in the "Brit HaDasha" according to Jeremiah 31:31 which is quoted in Hebrews 8. Chris does a nice job of articulating his position.
Now Zachary says he keeps some of the law but does not keep all of them is this not breaking the law? Paul says, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Galatians 3:10). So since the law requires those who keep the law to keep all the law and Zachary openly admits not keeping all the law does that mean he is under the curse according to the law?
+jacob cockerham I keep only the laws that apply to me. I can't keep the laws for women...or priests...or children. They don't apply to me. Also, I can't go up to the temple...there is no temple. Keep the ones that apply.
The Mosaic Law was given specifically to the nation of Israel (Exodus 19; Leviticus 26:46; Romans 9:4) the law of Moses was done away with 2000 years ago (Galatians 3:24 Romans 10:4). Therefore how can you say any of them apply to you today?
When Jesus was on earth, he kept the laws of Moses but he also criticized them. Soon after he went back to heaven, his followers met to decide whether Christians should keep the laws of Moses. The question came to the foreground when people who weren’t Jewish began to follow Christ: “Some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, ‘The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses’” (Acts 15:5). What were these laws? Were they biblical laws, or the unbiblical traditions of the elders? In every other New Testament mention of the “laws of Moses,” the biblical books of Moses are meant (Luke 2:22; 24:44; John 7:22-23; Acts 28:23; 1 Cor. 9:9; Heb. 10:28). Luke could have said “traditions,” but he did not. Anyone who knew the teachings of Jesus would already know that unbiblical traditions were not required. They did not need to debate about Jewish traditions. Just as circumcision was biblical, so also were the laws of Moses. The claim was that non-Jewish believers should be circumcised, and then, as part of the covenant people of God, they should then obey the laws of the covenant. The law of Moses said that men were to be circumcised. Today, we might explain (as Paul did) that Jesus instituted a new covenant, and that the Jewish believers were God’s people not because they were Jewish, but because they were believers. Membership in the new covenant is by faith, not by ancestry. But the Jerusalem council did not approach the question from this perspective. Let’s see how they did it. “The apostles and elders met to consider this question” (Acts 15:6). Perhaps dozens of elders were involved. “After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ‘Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe’” (v. 7). Peter reminded the people that God had used him to preach the gospel to Cornelius and his family (Acts 10). Cornelius was not circumcised, but Peter did not use that as proof. Rather, he focused on the foundations of how a person is saved-by believing. “God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith” (vs. 8-9). God gave the Holy Spirit to this uncircumcised family, purifying their hearts, calling them holy, as acceptable to him, because of their faith. Peter then began to scold the people who wanted the gentiles to obey the laws of Moses: “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (vs. 10-11). Peter’s point is that the yoke of Moses was a burden that the Jewish people were not able to keep successfully. Those rituals showed that, no matter how hard people worked, they could never be perfect. They showed, for anyone who ever wondered, that works can never lead to salvation. Salvation is attained in a different way-by grace. We can’t earn it, so it has to be given to us. Since the law of Moses cannot bring us salvation, there is no need to require the gentiles to keep it. God gave them the Holy Spirit and showed that he accepts them without all those rituals. They are saved by grace, and the Jews are, too. If we follow Peter’s logic, we will see that Jewish believers do not have to keep the laws of Moses, either. They are saved by grace through faith, just as the gentiles are. The old covenant is obsolete, so its laws are no longer required for anyone, and that is why Peter could live like a gentile (Gal. 2:14).
Let me just put all this in a shorter question are Christians required to fulfill the civil and ceremonial laws? Or are they just required to fulfill the moral law?
According to the Bible the law speaks to those who are under the law, "Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law" (Romans 3:19) however we are not under the law, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Galatians 4:4-5). If we were are under the law we would still be under the curse, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" (Galatians 3:10) but we are no longer under the curse but under grace, "for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). The Apostle Paul makes it clear that we should not serve the oldness of the letter, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Romans 7:6). We are commanded to be, "ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthains 3:6). The Apostle Paul even questions those who desires to be under the law saying, "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free" (Galatians 4:21-31).
Reading through Exodus, there appears to be two covenants made at Sinai. First covenant had the following: 1. Proposal - Exodus 19:5,6 2. Acceptance - Exodus 19:8 3. Blood ratification - Exodus 24:8 4. Covenant confirming meal - Exodus 24:11 This first covenant did not have any Levites as priests. There were already priests, and could have very well been the firstborn that were consecrated to God in Exodus 13, although im still not 100% sold on that. Fast forward to Exodus 32, and the covenant is broken with the golden calf. Moses intercedes for the people, and the Levites rally to Moses. Fast forward to Exodus 34:10, He says, "Behold, I make a covenant", and then we see the repeat of many of the previous commandments with the 2nd covenant. Then in Numbers 3:12, God says He has taken the Levites in place of the firstborn. Thoughts? :)
+Kasen Wade The first covenant (Exodus 19 to Exodus 24) was under the Melchizedek priesthood, but they broke it with the golden calf. Another covenant (Exodus 34) was made, but this one was under a Levitical priesthood. Zach (in this video) briefly mentioned something about going back to the Melchizedek order. I was mainly throwing that out there, to see if I could get Zach's thoughts on this. First covenant was to make them a kingdom of priests, but they broke it. Another covenant is made, but no mention of them becoming a kingdom of priests. Yeshua now makes a new covenant with us, making us a kingdom a priests. That seems to be implying that He is taking us back to the Exodus 19 terms. I was just wanting to see if Zach would reply, and give his thoughts on this, as he briefly mentioned Melchizedek, and it made me think about this topic.
Well, I'm not Zach but I'm glad you posted it because it has given me something to consider. It is a reasonable suggestion and one I haven't heard. It is akin to the theory I heard that the Children originally supposed to have been given the Spirit with the law at Sinai but rejected it for a mediator instead. Thus making it another necessary part of the "new covenant" to write it on the their hearts via the Spirit.
+ShepperdOneill An interesting observation but it's important to note that the Torah is not in chronological order, even within the books themselves. They're collections of fragments out of order, so it would be difficult to be certain that it really happened that way.
+HptmSteinhauer That is also a possibility that I have considered. The difficult part is finding someone that can put it all in the correct chronological order. This entire observation was based on the following... Hebrews 7:11 "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?" Notice in parentheses, it says that the people were under the Levitical priesthood when they received the law. However, the current Exodus account (assuming its in correct order) is in conflict with this, as the Levitical priesthood did not come into the picture until later on, when God takes them in place of the firstborn (Numbers 3). This appears to happen after the law was already given. But as you said, this could be something that is not true, as the chronology could be screwed up.
If a marriage covenant is broken, (which it was) and a renewal is done,(which it is) it still is a marriage covenant with the same laws and vows, only renewed. The terms and vows....the same, renewed, in your heart and mind the same covenant.
+Kelly D Excellent summation, Kelly. The entire bible is about the marriage of Yahweh to His people (House of Israel's (Jacob) 12 tribes that were dispersed through out the world- we are those people. "my sheep hear my voice.")AND how we kept breaking the marriage vows (Laws) and how HE tries to give a us a way back to Him , WHILE NOT breaking anything in His word. That way is being reborn (death to our old selves) through the renewed covenant.How our Father made that way for us shows us that HE NEVER changes and that folks is Him through his Word.
I love this debate! I'm still trying to figure out "how much Torah do we keep without a physical temple", what if anything-did Yeshua modify, how much applies to non-Jewish believers? This debate pulled the relevant scriptures and provided insights on both sides that is helping me work through my own thoughts. Thank You Zach & Chris for your well thought out positions and your respect for one another. Isn't it interesting how two brothers in Messiah can find such opposing views in the same text? This is why we work out our salvation with "fear and trembling". I'd definitely like to see more debates with you two. Thank you again, may God lead us into all truth, SHALOM!
apparently circumcision is "not part of the law" because of 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.... apparently it makes a distinction between both, what matter is keeping the law, or maybe its a miss-translation......
I take this verse as meaning that being a Jew ("the circumcision") or a gentile ("uncircumcised") means nothing. What matters is the heart! After the heart change, circumcision may still be in effect for the obedient believer.
1 Corinthians 7:18~20 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God...... i don't know, but to me is very clear that circumcition means nothing,i was called in a uncircumcised state and my heart is now circumcised but if i don't get circumcised in the flesh i loose my salvation even thought i keep torah? mmmhh it's a bit confusing......
It's not a salvation issue I don't believe. Galatians is all about that. Think about it - how can a person become UNCIRCUMCISED? That's what the verse talks about. (It can probably be done today, but not back then surely.) So, a Jew remains a Jew and a gentile does not become a Jew. Spiritually, all believers are grafted into the one new man of Israel.
+Raphael_Courage Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. (Deuteronomy 10:16) (Deuteronomy 30:6) (Jeremiah 4:4) circumcision is principally a spiritual concept, although I recall there are verses specifically referring to "the flesh" however I would remain reserved over how that meaning should be rendered
my husband and I watched this last Shabbat and this one. Great conversation/debate! Chris is very well studied for only being in this walk for a year. I really appreciated the comorodiery between you two. I do believe that this topic is so important and I look forward to studying it out myself with my husband. thank you both so much for the great dialog. love and shalom.
Thanks Chris and Zac for this debate. To Chris, If the New Çovenant has removed some of the laws/commandments of God then we have a problem with what the New Covenant entails and what the Holy Spirit does in our lives... “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” Jeremiah 31:31-33 Notice it says the law would be put in their minds and hearts, NOT that only a part of the law would be written on our hearts and minds. So what is one of the roles of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on all flesh? "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezekiel 36:26-27 The Holy Spirit was given so that we would could obey the law/commandments. Again notice there is no doing away with any laws or commandments. Neither are there any prophesies about this - remember Amos 3:7 states the Father will inform His people via the prophets; and no where in the prophets did any prophesy that the law would pass away. Those elements of the law that cannot be completed today, that require the temple, are in waiting. They will once again be done in the New Millennium as scripture states. Its VITALLY important that one checks the "law and the prophets" - if you don't see it in these two then its most likely a different teaching that is not supported by scripture. Good to see God's people observing the Sabbath and Feasts of the Lord. Keep up the good work.
Isn't a covenant just a contract? If a party breaks a contract then it is no longer valid. So, a new contact or covenant must be made between the parties. What you two are arguing is the terms of the new contract. I'm thinking Zach is right, the terms are the same as in the previous covenant. By God making a new covenant with the people, he is simply giving the people a second chance to get it right.
+fletcher3913 The New Covenant of the Messiah: Jer 31:31 (31:30) "Here, the days are coming," says Adonai, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. (The day will come when God will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.) Jer 31:32 (31:31) It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says Adonai. (The New Covenant will not be like the Old Covenant.) Jer 31:33 (31:32) "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says Adonai: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Jer 31:34 (31:33) No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know Adonai'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more." Fulfillment of the New Covenant: Heb 8:6 But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as Torah on the basis of better promises. (The New Covenant of Yeshua is superior to the Mosaic Covenant.) Heb 8:7 Indeed, if the first covenant had not given ground for faultfinding, there would have been no need for a second one. (If the Old Covenant had been prefect there would not have been a need for the New Covenant.) Heb 8:8 For God does find fault with the people when he says, " 'See! The days are coming,' says Adonai, 'when I will establish over the house of Isra'el and over the house of Y'hudah a new covenant. (The New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and Judah.) Heb 8:9 " 'It will not be like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by their hand and led them forth out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, did not remain faithful to my covenant; so I, for my part, stopped concerning myself with them,' says Adonai. (The New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant and because the Israelites broke the Mosaic Covenant, God no longer considers them under it.) Heb 8:10 " 'For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days,' says Adonai: 'I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. (He writes his law inside of us through His Holy Spirit. The Greek word for law here is “nomos“, which has more than one meaning. It can mean instruction, guide, or teaching. It cannot mean the Sinai covenant here, because verse 8:13 states the Sinai covenant is now obsolete.) Heb 8:11 " 'None of them will teach his fellow-citizen or his brother, saying, "Know Adonai!" For all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest, Heb 8:12 because I will be merciful toward their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.' " Heb 8:13 By using the term, "new," he has made the first covenant "old"; and something being made old, something in the process of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether. (The Old Covenant has become obsolete.)
Foods, Feast Days and Sabbath: Act 10:9 The next day about noon, while they were still on their way and approaching the city, Kefa went up onto the roof of the house to pray. Act 10:10 He began to feel hungry and wanted something to eat; but while they were preparing the meal, he fell into a trance Act 10:11 in which he saw heaven opened, and something that looked like a large sheet being lowered to the ground by its four corners. Act 10:12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals, crawling creatures and wild birds. Act 10:13 Then a voice came to him, "Get up, Kefa, slaughter and eat!" Act 10:14 But Kefa said, "No, sir! Absolutely not! I have never eaten food that was unclean or treif." Act 10:15 The voice spoke to him a second time: "Stop treating as unclean what God has made clean." Act 10:16 This happened three times, and then the sheet was immediately taken back up into heaven.
Col 2:16 So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. Col 2:17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. (No one is to judge you in foods, or feast days, or Sabbaths.)
Circumcision: Act 15:1 But some men came down from Y'hudah to Antioch and began teaching the brothers, "You can't be saved unless you undergo b'rit-milah in the manner prescribed by Moshe." Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements: Act 15:29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Gal 2:3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
The New Commandment of the Messiah: Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (This is a new commandment from Christ, and is not of the Old Covenant.)
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (There are two different types of commandments given here. There are the commandments of Yeshua, which we are to keep and there are those of the Mosaic Covenant, which only Yeshua was able to keep for us.)
The Promise to Abraham: the Messiah would be his Seed Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. (The promise was made only to Christ.) Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. (The Sinai covenant did not annul the Promise to Abraham.) Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. (The inheritance does not come through the Sinai covenant.) Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. (The Sinai covenant was added until the Seed would come.) Gal 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. (Righteousness could not come through the Sinai covenant.) Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. (We were in bondage to the law until our faith in Christ.) Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (We are no longer under the guardian, after faith in Christ. We have the Holy Spirit inside of us if we have been “Born Again”. John 3:3 ) Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (We are Abraham’s offspring and heirs to the promise through Christ.)
Cast out the Old Covenant of Slavery: Gal 4:23 The one by the slave woman was born according to the limited capabilities of human beings, but the one by the free woman was born through the miracle-working power of God fulfilling his promise. (Paul is using the examples of Hagar and Sarah to compare the Old Covenant to the New.) Gal 4:24 Now, to make a midrash on these things: the two women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children for slavery - this is Hagar. (Here Paul is comparing the Old Covenant to the slave woman, Hagar.) Gal 4:25 Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Yerushalayim, for she serves as a slave along with her children. (Hagar represents the covenant given at Sinai. Mt. Sinai is in Arabia.) Gal 4:26 But the Yerushalayim above is free, and she is our mother; (We are children of the New Jerusalem, which is now above.) Gal 4:27 for the Tanakh says, "Rejoice, you barren woman who does not bear children! Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the deserted wife will have more children than the one whose husband is with her!" Gal 4:28 You, brothers, like Yitz'chak, are children referred to in a promise of God. (We are children of the Gal. 3:16 promise.) Gal 4:29 But just as then the one born according to limited human capability persecuted the one born through the Spirit's supernatural power, so it is now. (When Paul wrote this letter the Judaisers were persecuting the Gentile believers.) Gal 4:30 Nevertheless, what does the Tanakh say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for by no means will the son of the slave woman inherit along with the son of the free woman!" (Paul says we are to cast out the bondwoman, which is the Old Covenant.) Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are children not of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (We are children of the free woman.) Gal 5:1 What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don't let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. (Do not let the Old Covenant become a yoke of slavery upon you.) Gal 5:2 Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! (Circumcision is no advantage to those in the Messiah.) Gal 5:3 Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! (Those who undergo circumcision are obligated to keep the entire Sinai covenant, which no one but Christ has been able to do.) Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God's grace! (Those attempting to become righteous through keeping the Sinai covenant, have fallen from the Grace of the Messiah.)
+fletcher3913 best explanation ive heard, simple and to the point. i like to give the example of getting married/remarried, terms are the same but it is not the same marriage as before, its new but in no way different.
+SpotterVideo "The New Commandment of the Messiah"...the thought that Messiah gave "new" commandments not already in Torah makes him a sinner, aka, unable to be the Messiah. We see the the commandment to "love one another" and "love Elohim as yourself" in Torah, hence, the Messiah was indeed not giving "new" commandments, but stating them from the Torah, just as written, to those who probably had only heard commands given by the Rabbis (Talmud).
+Headline Newsrant In Galatians chapter 4, the Apostle Paul plainly states that we are to cast out the Sinai Covenant. We are told in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Covenant is now obsolete. The topic of both circumcision and following the law of Moses came up at the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts. We are arguing over a decision that was already made about 2,000 years ago. The Israelites broke the IF-Then Covenant. This is clearly stated in Jeremiah chapter 31. The Sinai Covenant is finished for those in-Christ.
+SpotterVideo We are indeed in the new covenant, as the first was broken by us. The marriage was dissolved. According to the Torah, we could not "remarry" until our husband died. This is why Yahusha had to die, so that we could remarry him. The terms and conditions did not change. The Jerusalem council did not throw out the Law of Moses. They were simply giving the commands that would be needed for these pagans from the first (ie don't eat blood, don't fornicate, etc.). The pagans were having a hard time with these since they were a big part of their former religions. Then what does it say? "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." Give them the instructions that are the most critical to them, and they'll learn the rest on the Sabbath day as it's preached in the synagogues. Question: sex with animals ok? No. Can you show me where it says that it's not ok?
Being in God’s spiritual presence requires cleanness of heart, while being in His physical presence (at the altar or in the Temple) also required physical cleanness. Thus, obedience to Torah is expected, ultimately in all matters/respects if we want to draw near to God completely. God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He is the Word, which includes Torah and His commandments. We cannot understand Paul unless and until we begin to understand Torah. Grace Faith Obedience - it has been the same from the beginning. Circumcision of the flesh was used (by men) in ancient Israel as physical proof of one’s faith (after all, who would do such a thing unless they were saved?!). As to the book of Hebrews, it relates solely to the priesthood and sacrificial system. God had established a dual system, a Melchizedek priesthood and a Levitical priesthood. Thus, this is not a change, but a transference. The summary of this whole concept is that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, which necessarily means His commitments, His commandments, His Word, His Torah. The “new” covenant is new from the perspective that if I buy a used car, it is new to me. God kept the Covenant, we broke it, thus it is new to us, not for Him.
Scott from Texas bless you for your understanding on this, I was seeing both sides of this debate. I was no closer to an answer but after reading your comments,I wanted to know more and understand more. So Im studying it for my self.
It seems like we have a issue with the covenants or "which covenants". The Law is not "the covenant". The covenant and 1st wedding supper is described in Exo 24:3-12. It's simply a solemn agreement to do everything the Almighty says to do. That is called Torah or His instructions for us. Israel broke the blood covenant in Exo 32. From that time until the time of Yeshua the blood covenant was broken, not by God but by man. Breaking a blood covenant means you must die. Instead of killing us all like He could have He had mercy and grace for us. He sent innocent Yeshua to die the death for us to redeem us from sin (breaking the blood covenant). Through Yeshua's blood sacrifice we can enter into a new blood covenant with the Almighty. However we still have to do whatever the Almighty says and that equals Torah. Did the covenant change? Yes, because Israel broke the first and the blood of Yeshua installed a new one. Meaning a new agreement was struck. Did the Torah change? No, because He doesn't change. When the transgression is complete and the fullness of the Gentiles come in the new wedding supper will take place. Bread for thought.:)
great video. great discussion. thanks for doing what you do. i do believe as Matthew Nolan teaches, in the two books; the book of the covenant and the book of the law. when you see the difference all these conflicts disappear.
"The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship." Hebrews 10:1. "For the promise that Abraham would be heir of the world was not made to him and his descendants through the Law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." Romans 5:13. "Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." Acts 13:38-39.
Paul Christian Jenkins, J.D. We have to approach scripture as a whole and by reading it from the front to the back, not from the middle to the end and then go back and reinterpret it from the back forward. The terms in the New testament ( new covenant) are defined in the old testament. We have to build on the terms and definitions that scripture itself gives us. Then reading Paul, you have to take all of his writings not the cherry picked verses we pick out to confirm a "New Covenant," or that Paul himself was justifying grace with no accountability to the covenant relationship. A covenant is between two parties and both hold responsibilities. If one or the other doesn't carry through, the covenant can be broken. The problem was the people were often only following the letter of the law, not allowing it to change their heart. None of us can be saved outside of grace alone, but once saved, obedience and a desire to be obedient follows. Grace is the root, obedience it the fruit. If there is no fruit then there truly is no root. We allow him to change us and we turn from and repent of our ways. Torah means to shoot for the mark. That is what the father asks of us, to shoot for the mark, and when we fail and we confess and repent, the Messiah's sacrifice covers our sin.
It’s good to see brothers rightly dividing the word. I believe that the “sacrifice of redemption” was paid by Yahushua, the temple transferred to the believer at its destruction. The new covenant is the old covenant after these things we’re fulfilled. Whether you trade Caesar’s fiat currency for the plastic wrapped meat or cull your own herd, a sacrifice has to be made to be able to eat and live. The Torah is the only way we can navigate and stay “clean” before Yahuah. Praise Yahuah for believers awakening to who they were created to be. All glory to El’Shaddai Yahuah Shalom
Good work Zach, I love seeing people opening their eyes to Torah. Go all the way brother Chris Holy Spirit is moving you to God's perfect Torah. Keep praying for guidance. Shalom brothers.
It is bewitching to go back under the law, and be accused. The new covenant is a exceeding gloriously, (2 Cor.3:8-11;) a better covenant with better promises,(Heb.8:6-7;) most torah /law keepers are blind to the words ofJesus in Luke 22:20; This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. The torah/law keepers have believed in vain,-read 1 Cor. 15:1-4; No one gets saved by teaching the torah,law, doing Sabbath, or the feast days. The law is for those reported in 1 Tim. 1:8-10;..and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. Which is torah obervant teachings. And not doing 1 Cor. 1:10;
Zach, your method of operation is different interpretations, adding or taking away from God's written words. In your debate with Chris, he had heart knowledge, and you had head knowledge. You are only teaching the propaganda, and mind programing relative to Torah/law observant keepers. You are in opposition to words already written with your own opinions, people can know Hebrew and Greek and have no heart knowledge from the Holy Spirit. Chris quoted the words by Jesus Christ in verse Luke 22:20; This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. It was like a veil over your mind. You did not let the words sink deep into your ears. Debating is of the flesh. You sounded to me to be teaching unsoundly. I saw and heard how you reacted to Chris answers or questions. If you are unsure about important matters within the Bible. You should not be a teacher at all. The pride or the flesh naturally wants to teach. Read in James 3:1; My brethren, be not many masters (teachers)knowing that we (teachers) shall receive greater condemnation.(judgements) I noted your method of operations is to change words you do not agree with in various verses. You are not really rightly dividing the word of truth. God does change in 2 Cor.5:19; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,... How did God deal with his people in the Old Testament. Does God deal with his people different in the New Testament or the whole earth with fire, for the surface of the earth, in the ending. Did not God change one language to many languages among all nations. You still have ancient Hebrew and modern Hebrew language. God did change the covenants. The new covenant or new testament is enforced by the death, buriel, and resurrection of God's Son. There are Torah/law observant keepers are against Paul's epistles and especially the epistle of Hebrews. The sum of God's word is truth. There are laws not relative anymore from the Old Testament. The law is not the gospel. No one got saved by preaching or teaching the law. There are Torah/law observant groups that claim Paul is of the devil, and a false apostle, they do not believe or obey, or do Paul's words revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Torah/law observant keepers go by man's wisdom, not the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul was a Torah/law observant keeper at different times, but his focus was , for I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.-read and do 1 Cor. 2:1-5; Paul was flexable at times to save others. He was not obsess with keeping theTorah/law, like the Messanic's started years ago. The Messanic's or HRM groups is a new fad fabicated by Judaizier's that want to be under, and remain under the Torah/law. Torah/law observant keepers or not relative anymore, since we are in a exceeding glorious covenant or new testament. The letter law is not forever. Jesus Christ, God or the Holy Spirit will be forever. I believe you and other Torah/law keepers are against Christianity. I have heard people claim in error Christianity is apostate. To be a apostate one has to leave their religion, and join a opposite religion. The Torah/law observant keepers is just a movement or fad that will go out sooner or later. God never planted it in the new testament or new covenant. God planted Christianity, and the gates of hell will not prevail against Jesus Christ, church or body of Christ. You can keep saying your different views and positions. It is your prerogative, and consequences before God.
Atonement is through the blood (Lev 17:11). The question is how should a disciple of Yeshua live after the disciple has been redeemed by the blood. Atonement/redemption by the blood comes first and happens at a moment in time. Sanctification is a life long process that takes place after atonement/redemption through the blood. The Torah provides guidance in the process of sanctification. The English word "law" is a confusing translation of the Hebrew word "Torah." The root of the Hebrew word "Torah" is the Hebrew word "Ohr" which means "light" in English. So "Torah" helps disciples of Yeshua walk in the "light" after redemption.
Redemption is through the blood and happens at a point in time. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Sanctification is a life long process that takes place AFTER redemption. Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Torah is our guide in the process of sanctification. The atonement/redemption is through the blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
The terms are the same but the Father creates in us a new heart and a new spirit, makes us a new creature in Christ. We are changed so that His law can be written on our hearts and minds. :)
You brothers certainly showed the love of Yah. Great debate. I am glad this brother continues following his hebrew roots. Hey check out Rico Cortez teachings that will help our brother.
The tabernacle is now the hearts of men, just like it was before the fall of Adam. Our body is the temple and our heart is the altar. Understanding this first is how we can easily show that the Law of God is still in effect, only it looks a bit different. I still make sacrifices on the altar. I still attempt to keep the temple clean. “Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV ------- “Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” Hebrews 13:16 ESV ------ “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.” Romans 12:1 ESV
I loved this video. I learned, I agreed, disagreed, laughed, wanted to pull my hair out...It was great & I'd love to see more. And Zach, I am at home and I DO read my bible. LoL. Blessings in Messiah Yeshuah brother. Thank you.
The complete shift that Chris talks about is in Him but look at the New Millennium passages where the Messiah will give sacrifices and offerings in the temple.
Zach - could you please address the following verse: Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Douglas Eblen, There was a circumcision party that had it all wrong. Check the Qumran scrolls that speaks about a religious sect, likely referencing the circumcision party. To them one couldn't be saved without circumcision, and once you were circumcised you were basically in, sort of like once saved always saved. They picked and choose what laws of the Father they followed, and they were the sect that trumped up false charges against the Messiah and against Stephen. Abraham himself wasn't circumcised for 40 years after the Father spoke to him. The circumcision is an outward sign of what happened inwardly already, a changed heart. The leaders of the Jews became corrupted and it all became about an outward show. Look at 119 ministries you tube video's Acts 10 and Acts 15 and I think that issue will be cleared up for you brother. Blessings.
The term circumcision must be understood in context. Paul is saying being A Jew who grew up with Torah ( circumcised) means nothing nor does being a gentile who grew up without Torah( uncircumcised) means anything as Christ brings both into the Better Covenant. God in this better Covenant has the responsibility to circumcise our hearts by the Holy Spirit. As Paul ? alluded to in other placed.....being washed & cleansed in Baptism Christ's Blood makes you a clean vessel or a New Creation for the Holy Spirit to dwell in. That then begins the awareness of the process of renewal to walk faithfully with God as Christ did. That being learning obedience to Torah for us all. It is why elsewhere Paul describes there is great advantage in being a Jew who becomes a believer as they are already familiar with the Covenants and promises. All they have to do is get rid of incorrect doctrine of the orally transmitted interpretations that are effectively additions or subtractions from the perfect Torah. Circumcision & it's contextual use is often confused with another section of Scripture in the NT where Paul calls the Galations foolish and thst Christ will be of no effect if they get circumcised. This circumcision is referring Proselytism....the process of being accepted as Jewish to come into Covenant with God. A man made oral tradition considered binding as Law within Judaism as it is today. This can be verified as the word used is anthropos in that section which refers to humanity and not just males alone. In Judaism the last step of being accepted as a Jewish citizen was a mikveh (ritual baptism) & for males (aner in Greek) was a physical circumcision. This is where a lot of confusion happens. A convert to God according to Moses Law and NOT the traditional interpretations and additions was only required to be circumcised to be accepted to participate in the Passover .. Initial faith was all that was required to be accepted according to God ...just like Abraham called at 75 & circumcised many years later but being obedient to the statutes commands & judgments God gave him to perform. So a male following Christ who was not circumcised on the 8th day would be required to be circumcised to participate in the required Feasts. Hope this helps s little & is not confusing.🖐️🙂
This is one where I actually agree with your guest I think Paul makes it pretty clear that if you are someone who has come to fade uncircumcised then you don’t need to be circumcised he says that almost exactly stay as you are when you come to the faith whether you be circumcised don’t become uncircumcised and if you are uncircumcised don’t become circumcised almost the exact words to uses
Exodus 34:28 says the 10 commandments are the words of the covenant given to Moses and they were carried into the promised land complete without any missing. If Yehoshua/Joshua is a type and shadow of Yeshua who leads us into the Promised Land - then the commandments (all 10) go with us as we follow. Nothing is left out.
I had a long (about 6 hours) talk/political debate with a agnostic liberal socialist, he made the point of at least we can find common ground & still be friends. I only wish my brothers in Messiah could have that attitude. I love to listen to these type of debates
Chris seems to think that the context of one book (Galatians) overrides the context of the rest of scripture but that is not how it works. As for Chris saying "Does it say ALL the torah" in reference to Jeremiah 31:31-33 In the Hebrew, Yes. The word "torah" means all just as it did when it was given. Chris also said the New Covenant is different but not to the extent that he says. Again check the prophesies - if Chris is right then the prophets would show this to be the case but its not. There are no prophesies about what he believes. Just as the Father delivered/saved the mixed multitude out of Egypt THEN the Father gave them His instructions, so we too are saved by the passover Lamb of God, Yeshua, being made righteous by Yeshua's sacrifice brings us into the kingdom. Now AFTER salvation we are to walk in righteousness by walking out the commandments.
There are few key moments in my belief, where everything changes. When I watched an Alan Parr video on the Sabbath and realized it's all wrong. And just now. The moment when Zach said that's in italics. MY WHOLE BELIEF FLIPPED.
P.s. the Lord probably enjoyed this conversation very much, because y'all were very loving and respectful and cute trying to reason all of this. Good job. Yah bless.
@chris shin Regarding the point of why Christ wasn’t defiled by the woman with the blood issue. The text tells us she touched his tassels, not him. Like Malachi says “healing in his wings”. Her healing had an element of prophetic fulfillment.
The woman is not unclean after 7 days, she is unclean at the moment of her menstrual. If she were to go before the alter during that 7 days while unclean she would would die. The sin is not her uncleaness the sin would be her going to the alter in her physical uncleaness, however she will not miss out on the kingdom of God if she were to die in her 7 days. If Yeshua was to return during her 7 day uncleaness she would not miss out on the kingdom of god.
Matthew 5:18New International Version (NIV) 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Zach, love this format, learned a lot. Don't forget Deut 29:9-14 where it mentions cutting a covenant this day. Thx Zach, keep the videos coming Brother
Amazing! This is just about the best discussion on the subject (and maybe most subjects). I absolutely love the way that even both brothers are trying to make their points, they are allowing room for the other to speak their points, keeping modestly an open mind. This allows us to hear the good points to both opinions, as well as the grey areas etc... This is the way that such theological discussions should go. I am still deciding whether the New Covenant includes All Torah, most torah or much torah. As well if it is simply to a different people or simply deeper fulfilled truths.
Point 47:17...YHWH's Covenant that is and always was BASED ON YHWH'S HOLINESS, cannot change if HE NEVER changes !! Good midrash ! Thanks guys and yeah, please do more of these . Shalom!
A good topic for a future debate between Chris and Zach would be the meaning of the following verse: Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Abraham was the first Hebrew: Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the >>Hebrew
The Baptist had warned the Jews not to think that being Abrahams' physical descendants was sufficient. Paul speaks of a spiritual descendent of Abraham who becomes one by faith in Jesus apart from the law. That symbol you have there is not in scripture and is in fact, a hexagram.
I enjoyed the context of this video, however I think each person getting a set amount of time to complete their thought or point have view would have made this easier to follow.
Just wanted to pose a question: I'm sure we can all agree that if we use The Infallible Word of God as our dictionary/or rather said as, use The Bible to interpret the Bible, we look at the first covenant ever mentioned, which is seen in Gen 6:18 and explained in Gen 9:9...what does this show us, when we look at the model of covenant making, and about how God makes a covenant, and how He still sees it to this day?? Are all His covenants connected? Gen 9:15 - 17 "...and I shall remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living being of all flesh, and never again let the waters become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the rainbow shall be in the clouds and I shall see it, to remember the everlasting covenant between Elohim and every living being of all flesh that is on the earth. And Elohim said to Noah, 'This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.'" How does this tie in with what this debate is about? New vs old vs renewed covenant? There's got to be a connection or am I grasping at nothing here?
PS: How great is God, I got this book in the mail the other day and answered all my questions: FYI for others with the same question. ffoz.com/what-about-the-new-covenant.html
The New Covenant is not changed on God's side, so the change is on us. What the Father did thru the Messiah's sacrifice - is being able to put the Father's law in our hearts and minds. Before this was not the case before.
This types of discussions are good in that you see different perspective, but pointless if both parties are not willing to be wrong and seek the truth rather than trying to be right and defend your dogma.
There’s only 206 Torah commandment for me as a man. This is Zach Bauer speaking at 10:45-59. That’s why I have my Messiah now to fulfill that. But there will come a day (Isaiah 61) when I can return to a temple and complete these. So let’s translate Zach, “ now I have the lesser (just the Messiah Jesus Yeshua Hamasia), but SOMEDAY I will have the greater, the temple in Jerusalem, to carry out my own sin sacrifices.” Wow, audience, I hope you catch the power of what he’s saying, go back rewind the video. This is very opposite of which sacred scripture speaks of that Jesus is the much better. This is amazing someone leads his followers to this apprehensive teaching!! Wow!!! And with no embarrassment of blushing!!Wow!!! And look I didn’t call him a single name. That’s not really amazing....
I'm a bit confused by what you said "the flesh must be circumcised fist 15:10 of the video" when Israel was commanded to circumcise their male babies at 8 days old. I'm not sure how to fit all that.
Very happy to see civil respectful brotherly iron sharpening iron. Being the example. "Those who keep the commandments and hold to the testimony of Yeshua" Rev 12:17So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring-those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua. The Revelation 12:17 TLV
22:16 Regarding Peter's vision - Chris confuses oral law of rabbis with written Torah of Moses. Mark 7:7 - Yeshua made a distinction between commandments of YHVH and the commandments of men.
Notice the passage in Galatians 5:19-21 says that they that do such things shall not "INHERIT" the Kingdom of God, it does not say ENTER. There is only one way to enter the Kingdom if God, by faith in Yeshua as our Messiah and Lord. Our inheritance (Ephesians 1:11) consists of everything that Yeshua died to redeem us from (the curse Deut 28:15-68) and all the things that he redeemed us to (the blessing of Abraham Deut 28:1-14).
I know this is an older video, but I think +Chris Shin hit the nail on the head when he asked Zach if the new covenant is active now, and Zach was unable to answer. I believe understanding the new and old covenants is the crux of the issue with all believers in Messiah, and will define how you live your life.
Ezekiel 36:24-29 pertaining to the future...if we can't become unclean, why would Yah "save us from all your UNCLEANNESSES " vs29 am I miss interpretating it zack?
So, Zach, am I correct in hearing you say the only thing that has changed is the priesthood from the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood back to the Melchizedek priesthood, AND that that change in priesthood has only taken place because of the corruption of the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood? Also, am I right in hearing you say there is no other change in His instructions (torah), even though Hebrews 7:12 says that when there is a change in the priesthood there is by necessity a change also in the law? First of all, wasn't there another important reason for a change in the priesthood? Wasn't it also, and more importantly, because Messiah fulfilled the requirements of the task-master, tutor, the Levitical Laws set in place only until the time of reformation and because, by doing so, He restored the original covenant, as well as the conditions of the covenant, through Himself as the once-and-for-all atoning sacrifice and because He became the new great high priest, replacing Yochanan, of the former order? If so, really, the actual Aaronic priesthood was NOT corrupt, because really, Yochanan, who was not corrupt, was actually the high priest, wasn't he? Wasn't Yochanan even aware of the coming, and possibly even beginning, the transition of the high priesthood, the priesthood itself, and maybe even the torah itself as well, as he was no longer functioning in the temple (because it had been corrupted) and he was proclaiming teshuvah and the coming of Messiah and His kingdom? Where were the sacrifices and the keeping of the other instructions of the temple service after the order of Aaron? If so, then the reason for the change in the priesthood is far more so for the reasons I am conjecturing here. And, if so, then maybe you could see there actually are other changes in His instructions (torah) in keeping with his Melchizedek priesthood, also, and not continuing in keeping with the same instructions after the old order of the Aaronic priesthood? After all, haven’t the instructions of the original covenant always been in effect and those of the Aaronic order only temporary? Isn't there also a change in torah, not only because He now circumcises the hearts of His people, giving them the Ruach HaKodesh, and writing the torah on their hearts, but also because there has been an actual change in torah, itself? The instructions in keeping with the original covenant also make it a better covenant vs. the Levitical task-master, tutor, instructions. Don't you think there could be a corresponding difference between the Melchizedek high priest, priesthood, and the Book of the Covenant torah, and the Aaronic high priest, priesthood, and the Book of the Law torah? Also, He has restored His people back to being a kingdom OF priests after the order of Melchizedek, and not to a kingdom WITH priests after the order of Aaron, hasn't he? If there was a temple now, like the one of old, or if there will be a temple in the future (by the works of man), would there not also need to be an Aaronic priesthood and an Aaronic high priest and animal sacrifices? Wouldn't we then have two high priests and two orders of priesthood and two ways of spiritual service of worship, one in which Messiah is our great high priest and our atoning sacrifice and the other in which there would need to be an Aaronic high priest and animal sacrifices and other temple services? Wouldn't that be crucifying again the son of man? Who needs two high priests and two orders of priesthoods and two ways of serving YHWH, when the better one has been restored and with a covenant in keeping with it based on better promises? Who needs the instructions in keeping with the former one (Levitical) when the instructions of the original one (Melchizedek) is now restored and being officiated by Messiah? Who needs the task-master, tutor, Aaronic priesthood now that Messiah has come? I didn’t need it to come to trust in Yeshua as Messiah or my great high priest. I only needed the Levitical laws to understand what He had fulfilled, what it meant, and to lead me back to a restored covenant and Melkizedek priesthood and covenant torah. I say, let us keep the re-NEW-ed covenant and its torah (instructions/laws/commandments), and yes, that means with having a circumcised heart, receiving and living by the Ruach HaKodesh, with covenant torah written on our hearts, minus the Levitical laws not found in torah before the covenant was broken, before the Levitical laws were added as a task-master, tutor, until the time of reformation, the coming of Messiah, our great high priest, after the order of Melchizedek.
I need to ask this...What is the new covenant? where is it outlined? because when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13 it says it is a new covenant between Him and the house of Judah and Israel, that He will put his Torah "Law" into our minds and He will write them in our hearts. sounds to me like the old and the new are basically the same, just renewed because of the covenant we broke with YHWH.
If we recognize Paul's heresies, and stop trying to keep Paul's reputation intact, it becomes much easier to understand the truth. Zach, you are nearly there.
I’ve never written a youtube comment but feel totally compelled to write one today. First of all, THANK YOU Zac and Chris for an excellent debate! One of the things I loved about this video was the tone. I long to have these types of discussions regarding the text. Passionate but respectful. I tend to think that Zac made a better argument (but I might be bias from watching past videos), but I think Chris did an excellent job presenting his point of view and he made me consider where he was coming from. Clearly, Chris knows the text and he came across as a man who walks in humility. For me, watching this debate was like a breath of fresh air. It is possible for people to talk! I feel sharpened, challenged and better equipped to live out the text. So interesting being an observer watching these two wrestle out their convictions. I would be so grateful if these two would continue to debate in the future so I and others could benefit.
Blessings in Messiah!
Zach supported his beliefs better, but he didn't mention the marriage covenant and the 4 stages or that the Father annulled this when his bride whored after other gods. Zach also was too reactive. I understand why he was, but part of a debate is allowing the opponent to finish his train of thought prior to responding. Lots of reacting was going on.
I love the debate videos. It is the steel sharpening the steal. Please due more videos like this.
"Is any man called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is
any man called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God is everything. Let each man remain in the same condition in which he was called." 1 Cor 7:18-20
its good to see brothers discuss the scriptures in peace. Good example you guys are setting.
+evanm076 I know, isn't it cool. We can still disagree and love each other. Ultimately we are waiting for Him to come and set all things straight. Love God and our neighbor. These are the weightier matters.
+Zachary Bauer (New2Torah) amen Zach
+evanm076 We are now under a better covenant, based on better promises, with a better mediator.
Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
(We are no longer under the Sinai covenant mediated by Moses.)
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
(The Sinai covenant had to be replaced.)
Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
(The New Covenant would not be like the Sinai Covenant. They broke the Sinai Covenant and God no longer considers them under it.)
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(In the New Covenant He puts His Holy Spirit inside of us.)
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(The Sinai Covenant is now obsolete.)
We are to let go of the Old Covenant of bondage, based on Galatians chapter 4.
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Gal 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband."
Gal 4:28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman."
Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Cast out the Old Covenant.
+SpotterVideo looking at the context, it seems to me we are talking about the priesthood. The old was based on the flesh, which started with Aaron and his sons, which was corrupt and has passed away. But now it is according to the Spirit, our Messiah, in the order of Melchizedek. Our Savior is now the mediator of our faith with our Father. The only way we can approach and commune with Him is thru the redemptive blood of our perfect sacrifice, our perfect role model for following our Fathers instructions, our Savior. Not the letter of the instructions, but the raised bar of the spirit of HIs Holy Instructions, His Word, His Torah. ie not the physical act of adultery, but even thinking about it in your heart is sin.
+Marty Pankey In discussing the issue with others recently it has become clear that some want to make the New Covenant either a renewal or a fulfillment of the Sinai covenant. However, based on Gal 3:16 it is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Galatians chapter 3 makes it clear that the promise to Abraham came before the Sinai covenant.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The Sinai covenant was added 430 years after the Promise to Abraham.)
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The Sinai Covenant was added because of trangressions until the Seed(Christ) could come.)
........................................................................
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I am very new to Torah having only seen the light in the past few months. Thank you both for your comments. I am sure that we should follow the law as best we can. These talks and debates help. If more people would bring their differences and concerns to the table in this formate the world could be a much better place.
Great job Chris...you were very clear and humble...i think you would be very good at making more videos..
This was one of the best debates I've ever seen. Great example of how brothers can agree to disagree.
Update: I continued to prayerfully question my assumptions. Found Jay Dyer's work (and many others). Converted to Eastern Orthodox. Praise God!
The best "challenger" I've seen so far. Hardly any interruptions, understood the technicalities on why each party disagreed and great topic development. All in all this is the video that made me go back to scripture the most. Great stuff guys. #bringchrisback
you by far are one of the most respectful debaters i have seen. its awesome to see that we can talk about the worth through different view points and still be respectful. God bless you Zach
More of these please!!! Loved it Zack!
Great debate, I love when two people both bring knowledge rather than ego to the table. We are hear to sharpen eachother, not run over each others ideas to prove who is the victor. Thankfully Eloheim Loves us to the point that he Renewed the Covenant, that was the fulfillment that showed just how much he loves us and should inspire us to follow his Law. That kind of Love proves that his boundaries are good and have our best interest in mind.
Favorite debate yet! Thanks
Talking about the book of Hebrews it says in hebrews 10:28 that we should not disregard the Torah! Live as your messiah lived, He kept the Law (instructions) therefore we should keep the Torah! Shalom
Great honest discussion
Is there a part 2?
I would like to see Chris in future videos. A good topic would be which humans are participants in the "Brit HaDasha" according to Jeremiah 31:31 which is quoted in Hebrews 8. Chris does a nice job of articulating his position.
Now Zachary says he keeps some of the law but does not keep all of them is this not breaking the law? Paul says, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Galatians 3:10). So since the law requires those who keep the law to keep all the law and Zachary openly admits not keeping all the law does that mean he is under the curse according to the law?
+jacob cockerham I keep only the laws that apply to me. I can't keep the laws for women...or priests...or children. They don't apply to me. Also, I can't go up to the temple...there is no temple. Keep the ones that apply.
The Mosaic Law was given specifically to the nation of Israel (Exodus 19; Leviticus 26:46; Romans 9:4) the law of Moses was done away with 2000 years ago (Galatians 3:24 Romans 10:4). Therefore how can you say any of them apply to you today?
When Jesus was on earth, he kept the laws of Moses but he also criticized them. Soon after he went back to heaven, his followers met to decide whether Christians should keep the laws of Moses. The question came to the foreground when people who weren’t Jewish began to follow Christ:
“Some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, ‘The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses’” (Acts 15:5).
What were these laws? Were they biblical laws, or the unbiblical traditions of the elders? In every other New Testament mention of the “laws of Moses,” the biblical books of Moses are meant (Luke 2:22; 24:44; John 7:22-23; Acts 28:23; 1 Cor. 9:9; Heb. 10:28). Luke could have said “traditions,” but he did not. Anyone who knew the teachings of Jesus would already know that unbiblical traditions were not required. They did not need to debate about Jewish traditions.
Just as circumcision was biblical, so also were the laws of Moses. The claim was that non-Jewish believers should be circumcised, and then, as part of the covenant people of God, they should then obey the laws of the covenant. The law of Moses said that men were to be circumcised. Today, we might explain (as Paul did) that Jesus instituted a new covenant, and that the Jewish believers were God’s people not because they were Jewish, but because they were believers. Membership in the new covenant is by faith, not by ancestry. But the Jerusalem council did not approach the question from this perspective. Let’s see how they did it.
“The apostles and elders met to consider this question” (Acts 15:6). Perhaps dozens of elders were involved. “After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ‘Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe’” (v. 7).
Peter reminded the people that God had used him to preach the gospel to Cornelius and his family (Acts 10). Cornelius was not circumcised, but Peter did not use that as proof. Rather, he focused on the foundations of how a person is saved-by believing.
“God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith” (vs. 8-9). God gave the Holy Spirit to this uncircumcised family, purifying their hearts, calling them holy, as acceptable to him, because of their faith.
Peter then began to scold the people who wanted the gentiles to obey the laws of Moses: “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (vs. 10-11).
Peter’s point is that the yoke of Moses was a burden that the Jewish people were not able to keep successfully. Those rituals showed that, no matter how hard people worked, they could never be perfect. They showed, for anyone who ever wondered, that works can never lead to salvation. Salvation is attained in a different way-by grace. We can’t earn it, so it has to be given to us.
Since the law of Moses cannot bring us salvation, there is no need to require the gentiles to keep it. God gave them the Holy Spirit and showed that he accepts them without all those rituals. They are saved by grace, and the Jews are, too.
If we follow Peter’s logic, we will see that Jewish believers do not have to keep the laws of Moses, either. They are saved by grace through faith, just as the gentiles are. The old covenant is obsolete, so its laws are no longer required for anyone, and that is why Peter could live like a gentile (Gal. 2:14).
Let me just put all this in a shorter question are Christians required to fulfill the civil and ceremonial laws? Or are they just required to fulfill the moral law?
According to the Bible the law speaks to those who are under the law, "Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law" (Romans 3:19) however we are not under the law, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Galatians 4:4-5). If we were are under the law we would still be under the curse, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" (Galatians 3:10) but we are no longer under the curse but under grace, "for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). The Apostle Paul makes it clear that we should not serve the oldness of the letter, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Romans 7:6). We are commanded to be, "ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthains 3:6). The Apostle Paul even questions those who desires to be under the law saying, "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free" (Galatians 4:21-31).
Reading through Exodus, there appears to be two covenants made at Sinai.
First covenant had the following:
1. Proposal - Exodus 19:5,6
2. Acceptance - Exodus 19:8
3. Blood ratification - Exodus 24:8
4. Covenant confirming meal - Exodus 24:11
This first covenant did not have any Levites as priests. There were already priests, and could have very well been the firstborn that were consecrated to God in Exodus 13, although im still not 100% sold on that.
Fast forward to Exodus 32, and the covenant is broken with the golden calf. Moses intercedes for the people, and the Levites rally to Moses.
Fast forward to Exodus 34:10, He says, "Behold, I make a covenant", and then we see the repeat of many of the previous commandments with the 2nd covenant.
Then in Numbers 3:12, God says He has taken the Levites in place of the firstborn.
Thoughts? :)
+ShepperdOneill I sort of see what you are saying but I'm not sure I get your whole point. What exactly are you implying?
+Kasen Wade The first covenant (Exodus 19 to Exodus 24) was under the Melchizedek priesthood, but they broke it with the golden calf. Another covenant (Exodus 34) was made, but this one was under a Levitical priesthood. Zach (in this video) briefly mentioned something about going back to the Melchizedek order.
I was mainly throwing that out there, to see if I could get Zach's thoughts on this.
First covenant was to make them a kingdom of priests, but they broke it.
Another covenant is made, but no mention of them becoming a kingdom of priests.
Yeshua now makes a new covenant with us, making us a kingdom a priests. That seems to be implying that He is taking us back to the Exodus 19 terms. I was just wanting to see if Zach would reply, and give his thoughts on this, as he briefly mentioned Melchizedek, and it made me think about this topic.
Well, I'm not Zach but I'm glad you posted it because it has given me something to consider. It is a reasonable suggestion and one I haven't heard.
It is akin to the theory I heard that the Children originally supposed to have been given the Spirit with the law at Sinai but rejected it for a mediator instead. Thus making it another necessary part of the "new covenant" to write it on the their hearts via the Spirit.
+ShepperdOneill An interesting observation but it's important to note that the Torah is not in chronological order, even within the books themselves. They're collections of fragments out of order, so it would be difficult to be certain that it really happened that way.
+HptmSteinhauer That is also a possibility that I have considered. The difficult part is finding someone that can put it all in the correct chronological order. This entire observation was based on the following...
Hebrews 7:11
"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"
Notice in parentheses, it says that the people were under the Levitical priesthood when they received the law. However, the current Exodus account (assuming its in correct order) is in conflict with this, as the Levitical priesthood did not come into the picture until later on, when God takes them in place of the firstborn (Numbers 3). This appears to happen after the law was already given.
But as you said, this could be something that is not true, as the chronology could be screwed up.
If a marriage covenant is broken, (which it was) and a renewal is done,(which it is)
it still is a marriage covenant with the same laws and vows, only renewed. The terms and vows....the same, renewed, in your heart and mind the same covenant.
+Kelly D Excellent summation, Kelly. The entire bible is about the marriage of Yahweh to His people (House of Israel's (Jacob) 12 tribes that were dispersed through out the world- we are those people. "my sheep hear my voice.")AND how we kept breaking the marriage vows (Laws) and how HE tries to give a us a way back to Him , WHILE NOT breaking anything in His word. That way is being reborn (death to our old selves) through the renewed covenant.How our Father made that way for us shows us that HE NEVER changes and that folks is Him through his Word.
+Kelly D thats the example i use when i try to explain it too!
Kelly D , it is not the same. The COVENANT made in the blood of Yashsya is New. Never made before. Unlike any
Other, never seen before.
Kelly D this is the best way I’ve ever heard this explained
I love this debate! I'm still trying to figure out "how much Torah do we keep without a physical temple", what if anything-did Yeshua modify, how much applies to non-Jewish believers? This debate pulled the relevant scriptures and provided insights on both sides that is helping me work through my own thoughts. Thank You Zach & Chris for your well thought out positions and your respect for one another. Isn't it interesting how two brothers in Messiah can find such opposing views in the same text? This is why we work out our salvation with "fear and trembling". I'd definitely like to see more debates with you two. Thank you again, may God lead us into all truth, SHALOM!
Check out Messianic Torah observing Israel rabbi Steve is excellent teacher
apparently circumcision is "not part of the law" because of 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.... apparently it makes a distinction between both, what matter is keeping the law, or maybe its a miss-translation......
I take this verse as meaning that being a Jew ("the circumcision") or a gentile ("uncircumcised") means nothing. What matters is the heart! After the heart change, circumcision may still be in effect for the obedient believer.
+Marcus G You are correct sir.
1 Corinthians 7:18~20 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God...... i don't know, but to me is very clear that circumcition means nothing,i was called in a uncircumcised state and my heart is now circumcised but if i don't get circumcised in the flesh i loose my salvation even thought i keep torah? mmmhh it's a bit confusing......
It's not a salvation issue I don't believe. Galatians is all about that. Think about it - how can a person become UNCIRCUMCISED? That's what the verse talks about. (It can probably be done today, but not back then surely.) So, a Jew remains a Jew and a gentile does not become a Jew. Spiritually, all believers are grafted into the one new man of Israel.
+Raphael_Courage
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
(Deuteronomy 10:16) (Deuteronomy 30:6) (Jeremiah 4:4)
circumcision is principally a spiritual concept, although I recall there are verses specifically referring to "the flesh" however I would remain reserved over how that meaning should be rendered
my husband and I watched this last Shabbat and this one. Great conversation/debate! Chris is very well studied for only being in this walk for a year. I really appreciated the comorodiery between you two. I do believe that this topic is so important and I look forward to studying it out myself with my husband. thank you both so much for the great dialog. love and shalom.
This was an awesome debate, both parties had great knowledge and explainations. No single one sidedness.
Thanks Chris and Zac for this debate.
To Chris,
If the New Çovenant has removed some of the laws/commandments of God then we have a problem with what the New Covenant entails and what the Holy Spirit does in our lives...
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” Jeremiah 31:31-33
Notice it says the law would be put in their minds and hearts, NOT that only a part of the law would be written on our hearts and minds. So what is one of the roles of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on all flesh?
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezekiel 36:26-27
The Holy Spirit was given so that we would could obey the law/commandments. Again notice there is no doing away with any laws or commandments. Neither are there any prophesies about this - remember Amos 3:7 states the Father will inform His people via the prophets; and no where in the prophets did any prophesy that the law would pass away. Those elements of the law that cannot be completed today, that require the temple, are in waiting. They will once again be done in the New Millennium as scripture states.
Its VITALLY important that one checks the "law and the prophets" - if you don't see it in these two then its most likely a different teaching that is not supported by scripture.
Good to see God's people observing the Sabbath and Feasts of the Lord.
Keep up the good work.
Isn't a covenant just a contract? If a party breaks a contract then it is no longer valid. So, a new contact or covenant must be made between the parties. What you two are arguing is the terms of the new contract. I'm thinking Zach is right, the terms are the same as in the previous covenant. By God making a new covenant with the people, he is simply giving the people a second chance to get it right.
+fletcher3913 The New Covenant of the Messiah:
Jer 31:31 (31:30) "Here, the days are coming," says Adonai, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah.
(The day will come when God will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.)
Jer 31:32 (31:31) It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says Adonai.
(The New Covenant will not be like the Old Covenant.)
Jer 31:33 (31:32) "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says Adonai: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Jer 31:34 (31:33) No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know Adonai'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more."
Fulfillment of the New Covenant:
Heb 8:6 But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as Torah on the basis of better promises.
(The New Covenant of Yeshua is superior to the Mosaic Covenant.)
Heb 8:7 Indeed, if the first covenant had not given ground for faultfinding, there would have been no need for a second one.
(If the Old Covenant had been prefect there would not have been a need for the New Covenant.)
Heb 8:8 For God does find fault with the people when he says, " 'See! The days are coming,' says Adonai, 'when I will establish over the house of Isra'el and over the house of Y'hudah a new covenant.
(The New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and Judah.)
Heb 8:9 " 'It will not be like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by their hand and led them forth out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, did not remain faithful to my covenant; so I, for my part, stopped concerning myself with them,' says Adonai.
(The New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant and because the Israelites broke the Mosaic Covenant, God no longer considers them under it.)
Heb 8:10 " 'For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days,' says Adonai: 'I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(He writes his law inside of us through His Holy Spirit. The Greek word for law here is “nomos“, which has more than one meaning. It can mean instruction, guide, or teaching. It cannot mean the Sinai covenant here, because verse 8:13 states the Sinai covenant is now obsolete.)
Heb 8:11 " 'None of them will teach his fellow-citizen or his brother, saying, "Know Adonai!" For all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest,
Heb 8:12 because I will be merciful toward their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.' "
Heb 8:13 By using the term, "new," he has made the first covenant "old"; and something being made old, something in the process of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether.
(The Old Covenant has become obsolete.)
Foods, Feast Days and Sabbath:
Act 10:9 The next day about noon, while they were still on their way and approaching the city, Kefa went up onto the roof of the house to pray.
Act 10:10 He began to feel hungry and wanted something to eat; but while they were preparing the meal, he fell into a trance
Act 10:11 in which he saw heaven opened, and something that looked like a large sheet being lowered to the ground by its four corners.
Act 10:12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals, crawling creatures and wild birds.
Act 10:13 Then a voice came to him, "Get up, Kefa, slaughter and eat!"
Act 10:14 But Kefa said, "No, sir! Absolutely not! I have never eaten food that was unclean or treif."
Act 10:15 The voice spoke to him a second time: "Stop treating as unclean what God has made clean."
Act 10:16 This happened three times, and then the sheet was immediately taken back up into heaven.
Col 2:16 So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.
(No one is to judge you in foods, or feast days, or Sabbaths.)
Circumcision:
Act 15:1 But some men came down from Y'hudah to Antioch and began teaching the brothers, "You can't be saved unless you undergo b'rit-milah in the manner prescribed by Moshe."
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
Act 15:29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Gal 2:3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
The New Commandment of the Messiah:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(This is a new commandment from Christ, and is not of the Old Covenant.)
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
(There are two different types of commandments given here. There are the commandments of Yeshua, which we are to keep and there are those of the Mosaic Covenant, which only Yeshua was able to keep for us.)
The Promise to Abraham: the Messiah would be his Seed
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
(The promise was made only to Christ.)
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
(The Sinai covenant did not annul the Promise to Abraham.)
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
(The inheritance does not come through the Sinai covenant.)
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
(The Sinai covenant was added until the Seed would come.)
Gal 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
(Righteousness could not come through the Sinai covenant.)
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
(We were in bondage to the law until our faith in Christ.)
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
(We are no longer under the guardian, after faith in Christ. We have the Holy Spirit inside of us if we have been “Born Again”. John 3:3 )
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
(We are Abraham’s offspring and heirs to the promise through Christ.)
Cast out the Old Covenant of Slavery:
Gal 4:23 The one by the slave woman was born according to the limited capabilities of human beings, but the one by the free woman was born through the miracle-working power of God fulfilling his promise.
(Paul is using the examples of Hagar and Sarah to compare the Old Covenant to the New.)
Gal 4:24 Now, to make a midrash on these things: the two women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children for slavery - this is Hagar.
(Here Paul is comparing the Old Covenant to the slave woman, Hagar.)
Gal 4:25 Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Yerushalayim, for she serves as a slave along with her children.
(Hagar represents the covenant given at Sinai. Mt. Sinai is in Arabia.)
Gal 4:26 But the Yerushalayim above is free, and she is our mother;
(We are children of the New Jerusalem, which is now above.)
Gal 4:27 for the Tanakh says, "Rejoice, you barren woman who does not bear children! Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the deserted wife will have more children than the one whose husband is with her!"
Gal 4:28 You, brothers, like Yitz'chak, are children referred to in a promise of God.
(We are children of the Gal. 3:16 promise.)
Gal 4:29 But just as then the one born according to limited human capability persecuted the one born through the Spirit's supernatural power, so it is now.
(When Paul wrote this letter the Judaisers were persecuting the Gentile believers.)
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless, what does the Tanakh say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for by no means will the son of the slave woman inherit along with the son of the free woman!"
(Paul says we are to cast out the bondwoman, which is the Old Covenant.)
Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are children not of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
(We are children of the free woman.)
Gal 5:1 What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don't let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery.
(Do not let the Old Covenant become a yoke of slavery upon you.)
Gal 5:2 Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all!
(Circumcision is no advantage to those in the Messiah.)
Gal 5:3 Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah!
(Those who undergo circumcision are obligated to keep the entire Sinai covenant, which no one but Christ has been able to do.)
Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God's grace!
(Those attempting to become righteous through keeping the Sinai covenant, have fallen from the Grace of the Messiah.)
+fletcher3913 best explanation ive heard, simple and to the point. i like to give the example of getting married/remarried, terms are the same but it is not the same marriage as before, its new but in no way different.
+SpotterVideo "The New Commandment of the Messiah"...the thought that Messiah gave "new" commandments not already in Torah makes him a sinner, aka, unable to be the Messiah. We see the the commandment to "love one another" and "love Elohim as yourself" in Torah, hence, the Messiah was indeed not giving "new" commandments, but stating them from the Torah, just as written, to those who probably had only heard commands given by the Rabbis (Talmud).
+Headline Newsrant In Galatians chapter 4, the Apostle Paul plainly states that we are to cast out the Sinai Covenant. We are told in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Covenant is now obsolete. The topic of both circumcision and following the law of Moses came up at the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts. We are arguing over a decision that was already made about 2,000 years ago. The Israelites broke the IF-Then Covenant. This is clearly stated in Jeremiah chapter 31. The Sinai Covenant is finished for those in-Christ.
+SpotterVideo We are indeed in the new covenant, as the first was broken by us. The marriage was dissolved. According to the Torah, we could not "remarry" until our husband died. This is why Yahusha had to die, so that we could remarry him. The terms and conditions did not change.
The Jerusalem council did not throw out the Law of Moses. They were simply giving the commands that would be needed for these pagans from the first (ie don't eat blood, don't fornicate, etc.). The pagans were having a hard time with these since they were a big part of their former religions. Then what does it say? "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." Give them the instructions that are the most critical to them, and they'll learn the rest on the Sabbath day as it's preached in the synagogues.
Question: sex with animals ok? No. Can you show me where it says that it's not ok?
God bless you both!
Being in God’s spiritual presence requires cleanness of heart, while being in His physical presence (at the altar or in the Temple) also required physical cleanness. Thus, obedience to Torah is expected, ultimately in all matters/respects if we want to draw near to God completely. God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He is the Word, which includes Torah and His commandments.
We cannot understand Paul unless and until we begin to understand Torah. Grace Faith Obedience - it has been the same from the beginning.
Circumcision of the flesh was used (by men) in ancient Israel as physical proof of one’s faith (after all, who would do such a thing unless they were saved?!).
As to the book of Hebrews, it relates solely to the priesthood and sacrificial system. God had established a dual system, a Melchizedek priesthood and a Levitical priesthood. Thus, this is not a change, but a transference.
The summary of this whole concept is that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, which necessarily means His commitments, His commandments, His Word, His Torah. The “new” covenant is new from the perspective that if I buy a used car, it is new to me. God kept the Covenant, we broke it, thus it is new to us, not for Him.
This was amazing insight Scott.
I'm new to Torah (7 ish months). Is there a way I could contact you or hear from resources you've learned from?
Scott from Texas bless you for your understanding on this, I was seeing both sides of this debate. I was no closer to an answer but after reading your comments,I wanted to know more and understand more. So Im studying it for my self.
Darveiye Dig into the teachings at 119 Ministries. Amazing insight there from humble people. Keep watching Zach, he is spot on too.
It seems like we have a issue with the covenants or "which covenants".
The Law is not "the covenant". The covenant and 1st wedding supper is described in Exo 24:3-12. It's simply a solemn agreement to do everything the Almighty says to do. That is called Torah or His instructions for us. Israel broke the blood covenant in Exo 32. From that time until the time of Yeshua the blood covenant was broken, not by God but by man. Breaking a blood covenant means you must die. Instead of killing us all like He could have He had mercy and grace for us. He sent innocent Yeshua to die the death for us to redeem us from sin (breaking the blood covenant). Through Yeshua's blood sacrifice we can enter into a new blood covenant with the Almighty. However we still have to do whatever the Almighty says and that equals Torah.
Did the covenant change? Yes, because Israel broke the first and the blood of Yeshua installed a new one. Meaning a new agreement was struck.
Did the Torah change? No, because He doesn't change.
When the transgression is complete and the fullness of the Gentiles come in the new wedding supper will take place. Bread for thought.:)
Very well stated. Thank you for this explanation. I fully agree with this interpretation.
Psalm 89-34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
great video. great discussion. thanks for doing what you do. i do believe as Matthew Nolan teaches, in the two books; the book of the covenant and the book of the law. when you see the difference all these conflicts disappear.
I was just thinking about this!
Matthew 26:26-29 amen thanks for the video
.
This debate was great! I enjoyed you both so much!
very good talk ...
"The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship." Hebrews 10:1.
"For the promise that Abraham would be heir of the world was not made to him and his descendants through the Law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." Romans 5:13.
"Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." Acts 13:38-39.
Paul Christian Jenkins, J.D. We have to approach scripture as a whole and by reading it from the front to the back, not from the middle to the end and then go back and reinterpret it from the back forward. The terms in the New testament ( new covenant) are defined in the old testament. We have to build on the terms and definitions that scripture itself gives us.
Then reading Paul, you have to take all of his writings not the cherry picked verses we pick out to confirm a "New Covenant," or that Paul himself was justifying grace with no accountability to the covenant relationship. A covenant is between two parties and both hold responsibilities. If one or the other doesn't carry through, the covenant can be broken. The problem was the people were often only following the letter of the law, not allowing it to change their heart. None of us can be saved outside of grace alone, but once saved, obedience and a desire to be obedient follows. Grace is the root, obedience it the fruit. If there is no fruit then there truly is no root. We allow him to change us and we turn from and repent of our ways. Torah means to shoot for the mark. That is what the father asks of us, to shoot for the mark, and when we fail and we confess and repent, the Messiah's sacrifice covers our sin.
Goodwork Chris. To God be the glory for the revelation of Christ Jesus by the witness of the comforter the Holy Spirit.
I love the "teachable hearts" in this discussion.
It’s good to see brothers rightly dividing the word. I believe that the “sacrifice of redemption” was paid by Yahushua, the temple transferred to the believer at its destruction. The new covenant is the old covenant after these things we’re fulfilled. Whether you trade Caesar’s fiat currency for the plastic wrapped meat or cull your own herd, a sacrifice has to be made to be able to eat and live. The Torah is the only way we can navigate and stay “clean” before Yahuah. Praise Yahuah for believers awakening to who they were created to be. All glory to El’Shaddai Yahuah Shalom
LOVED this debate! Pls do more. You two are like me and my husband at this point, and you left us wanting more. P
Jeremiah 31:31 the original verse calls it a renewed covenant, not a new covenant. Zach, you need to know that.
You need to stop calling it New Covenant
The covenant is renewed, not new.
Chrst came to fulfill, not to destroy, but to restore.
This was the way you needed to approach this debate.
Good work Zach, I love seeing people opening their eyes to Torah. Go all the way brother Chris Holy Spirit is moving you to God's perfect Torah. Keep praying for guidance. Shalom brothers.
It is bewitching to go back under the law, and be accused. The new covenant is a exceeding gloriously, (2 Cor.3:8-11;) a better covenant with better promises,(Heb.8:6-7;) most torah /law keepers are blind to the words ofJesus in Luke 22:20; This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. The torah/law keepers have believed in vain,-read 1 Cor. 15:1-4; No one gets saved by teaching the torah,law, doing Sabbath, or the feast days. The law is for those reported in 1 Tim. 1:8-10;..and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. Which is torah obervant teachings. And not doing 1 Cor. 1:10;
The new covenant is still the Torah but placed on our hearts and minds...where it was intended in the first place to those who rejected it.
Zach, your method of operation is different interpretations, adding or taking away from God's written words. In your debate with Chris, he had heart knowledge, and you had head knowledge. You are only teaching the propaganda, and mind programing relative to Torah/law observant keepers. You are in opposition to words already written with your own opinions, people can know Hebrew and Greek and have no heart knowledge from the Holy Spirit. Chris quoted the words by Jesus Christ in verse Luke 22:20; This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. It was like a veil over your mind. You did not let the words sink deep into your ears. Debating is of the flesh. You sounded to me to be teaching unsoundly. I saw and heard how you reacted to Chris answers or questions. If you are unsure about important matters within the Bible. You should not be a teacher at all. The pride or the flesh naturally wants to teach. Read in James 3:1; My brethren, be not many masters (teachers)knowing that we (teachers) shall receive greater condemnation.(judgements) I noted your method of operations is to change words you do not agree with in various verses. You are not really rightly dividing the word of truth. God does change in 2 Cor.5:19; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,... How did God deal with his people in the Old Testament. Does God deal with his people different in the New Testament or the whole earth with fire, for the surface of the earth, in the ending. Did not God change one language to many languages among all nations. You still have ancient Hebrew and modern Hebrew language. God did change the covenants. The new covenant or new testament is enforced by the death, buriel, and resurrection of God's Son. There are Torah/law observant keepers are against Paul's epistles and especially the epistle of Hebrews. The sum of God's word is truth. There are laws not relative anymore from the Old Testament. The law is not the gospel. No one got saved by preaching or teaching the law. There are Torah/law observant groups that claim Paul is of the devil, and a false apostle, they do not believe or obey, or do Paul's words revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Torah/law observant keepers go by man's wisdom, not the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul was a Torah/law observant keeper at different times, but his focus was , for I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.-read and do 1 Cor. 2:1-5; Paul was flexable at times to save others. He was not obsess with keeping theTorah/law, like the Messanic's started years ago. The Messanic's or HRM groups is a new fad fabicated by Judaizier's that want to be under, and remain under the Torah/law. Torah/law observant keepers or not relative anymore, since we are in a exceeding glorious covenant or new testament. The letter law is not forever. Jesus Christ, God or the Holy Spirit will be forever. I believe you and other Torah/law keepers are against Christianity. I have heard people claim in error Christianity is apostate. To be a apostate one has to leave their religion, and join a opposite religion. The Torah/law observant keepers is just a movement or fad that will go out sooner or later. God never planted it in the new testament or new covenant. God planted Christianity, and the gates of hell will not prevail against Jesus Christ, church or body of Christ. You can keep saying your different views and positions. It is your prerogative, and consequences before God.
all the best with theology
Atonement is through the blood (Lev 17:11). The question is how should a disciple of Yeshua live after the disciple has been redeemed by the blood. Atonement/redemption by the blood comes first and happens at a moment in time. Sanctification is a life long process that takes place after atonement/redemption through the blood. The Torah provides guidance in the process of sanctification. The English word "law" is a confusing translation of the Hebrew word "Torah." The root of the Hebrew word "Torah" is the Hebrew word "Ohr" which means "light" in English. So "Torah" helps disciples of Yeshua walk in the "light" after redemption.
Redemption is through the blood and happens at a point in time.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Sanctification is a life long process that takes place AFTER redemption.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Torah is our guide in the process of sanctification. The atonement/redemption is through the blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
Thank u brothers good video expoloring scripturee
The terms are the same but the Father creates in us a new heart and a new spirit, makes us a new creature in Christ. We are changed so that His law can be written on our hearts and minds.
:)
Great video, gentleman! What a breath of fresh air to see a civil discussion. This was very helpful to me and I appreciate your sharing this.
"I just became a christian and let me tell where you are wrong" haha, that's such a fun stage.
you see these two disagree on certain things don't let it discourage you just let the word of God Be Your guide and you will be fine
We need more Zack!! He had a good point about being a Christian there at the end. You dont like the term but you are to be a little messiah! Much love
You brothers certainly showed the love of Yah. Great debate. I am glad this brother continues following his hebrew roots. Hey check out Rico Cortez teachings that will help our brother.
Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised so he was saved by faith and it was followed by the obedience which was circumcision
The tabernacle is now the hearts of men, just like it was before the fall of Adam.
Our body is the temple and our heart is the altar. Understanding this first is how we can easily show that the Law of God is still in effect, only it looks a bit different.
I still make sacrifices on the altar. I still attempt to keep the temple clean.
“Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.”
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV
-------
“Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.”
Hebrews 13:16 ESV
------
“I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.”
Romans 12:1 ESV
I loved this video. I learned, I agreed, disagreed, laughed, wanted to pull my hair out...It was great & I'd love to see more. And Zach, I am at home and I DO read my bible. LoL. Blessings in Messiah Yeshuah brother. Thank you.
According to Jeshua in Matthew 15:24
The complete shift that Chris talks about is in Him but look at the New Millennium passages where the Messiah will give sacrifices and offerings in the temple.
Great video!
Zach - could you please address the following verse:
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Don't hold your breath
Douglas Eblen, There was a circumcision party that had it all wrong. Check the Qumran scrolls that speaks about a religious sect, likely referencing the circumcision party. To them one couldn't be saved without circumcision, and once you were circumcised you were basically in, sort of like once saved always saved. They picked and choose what laws of the Father they followed, and they were the sect that trumped up false charges against the Messiah and against Stephen. Abraham himself wasn't circumcised for 40 years after the Father spoke to him. The circumcision is an outward sign of what happened inwardly already, a changed heart. The leaders of the Jews became corrupted and it all became about an outward show. Look at 119 ministries you tube video's Acts 10 and Acts 15 and I think that issue will be cleared up for you brother. Blessings.
The term circumcision must be understood in context. Paul is saying being A Jew who grew up with Torah ( circumcised) means nothing nor does being a gentile who grew up without Torah( uncircumcised) means anything as Christ brings both into the Better Covenant.
God in this better Covenant has the responsibility to circumcise our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
As Paul ? alluded to in other placed.....being washed & cleansed in Baptism Christ's Blood makes you a clean vessel or a New Creation for the Holy Spirit to dwell in.
That then begins the awareness of the process of renewal to walk faithfully with God as Christ did.
That being learning obedience to Torah for us all. It is why elsewhere Paul describes there is great advantage in being a Jew who becomes a believer as they are already familiar with the Covenants and promises. All they have to do is get rid of incorrect doctrine of the orally transmitted interpretations that are effectively additions or subtractions from the perfect Torah.
Circumcision & it's contextual use is often confused with another section of Scripture in the NT where Paul calls the Galations foolish and thst Christ will be of no effect if they get circumcised.
This circumcision is referring Proselytism....the process of being accepted as Jewish to come into Covenant with God.
A man made oral tradition considered binding as Law within Judaism as it is today.
This can be verified as the word used is anthropos in that section which refers to humanity and not just males alone. In Judaism the last step of being accepted as a Jewish citizen was a mikveh (ritual baptism) & for males (aner in Greek) was a physical circumcision. This is where a lot of confusion happens.
A convert to God according to Moses Law and NOT the traditional interpretations and additions was only required to be circumcised to be accepted to participate in the Passover .. Initial faith was all that was required to be accepted according to God ...just like Abraham called at 75 & circumcised many years later but being obedient to the statutes commands & judgments God gave him to perform.
So a male following Christ who was not circumcised on the 8th day would be required to be circumcised to participate in the required Feasts.
Hope this helps s little & is not confusing.🖐️🙂
This is one where I actually agree with your guest I think Paul makes it pretty clear that if you are someone who has come to fade uncircumcised then you don’t need to be circumcised he says that almost exactly stay as you are when you come to the faith whether you be circumcised don’t become uncircumcised and if you are uncircumcised don’t become circumcised almost the exact words to uses
Exodus 34:28 says the 10 commandments are the words of the covenant given to Moses and they were carried into the promised land complete without any missing. If Yehoshua/Joshua is a type and shadow of Yeshua who leads us into the Promised Land - then the commandments (all 10) go with us as we follow. Nothing is left out.
I had a long (about 6 hours) talk/political debate with a agnostic liberal socialist, he made the point of at least we can find common ground & still be friends. I only wish my brothers in Messiah could have that attitude. I love to listen to these type of debates
good video. good argument on both sides.
Great debate, I'd like to see more!
Chris seems to think that the context of one book (Galatians) overrides the context of the rest of scripture but that is not how it works.
As for Chris saying "Does it say ALL the torah" in reference to Jeremiah 31:31-33 In the Hebrew, Yes. The word "torah" means all just as it did when it was given. Chris also said the New Covenant is different but not to the extent that he says. Again check the prophesies - if Chris is right then the prophets would show this to be the case but its not. There are no prophesies about what he believes.
Just as the Father delivered/saved the mixed multitude out of Egypt THEN the Father gave them His instructions, so we too are saved by the passover Lamb of God, Yeshua, being made righteous by Yeshua's sacrifice brings us into the kingdom. Now AFTER salvation we are to walk in righteousness by walking out the commandments.
There are few key moments in my belief, where everything changes. When I watched an Alan Parr video on the Sabbath and realized it's all wrong. And just now. The moment when Zach said that's in italics. MY WHOLE BELIEF FLIPPED.
Great conversation. This was really interesting and informative.
P.s. the Lord probably enjoyed this conversation very much, because y'all were very loving and respectful and cute trying to reason all of this. Good job. Yah bless.
@chris shin Regarding the point of why Christ wasn’t defiled by the woman with the blood issue. The text tells us she touched his tassels, not him. Like Malachi says “healing in his wings”. Her healing had an element of prophetic fulfillment.
Good job guys! Yall are really making me think. I'm going to have to search the scriptures and pray.
That was awesome !
The woman is not unclean after 7 days, she is unclean at the moment of her menstrual. If she were to go before the alter during that 7 days while unclean she would would die. The sin is not her uncleaness the sin would be her going to the alter in her physical uncleaness, however she will not miss out on the kingdom of God if she were to die in her 7 days.
If Yeshua was to return during her 7 day uncleaness she would not miss out on the kingdom of god.
Matthew 5:18New International Version (NIV)
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Zach, love this format, learned a lot. Don't forget Deut 29:9-14 where it mentions cutting a covenant this day. Thx Zach, keep the videos coming Brother
I LOVE IT THANKS . VERY VERY INTERESTING KEEP IT UP ,GOD BLESS BOTH OF U AND YOUR FAMILY.
Good video Zach. He is so hung up on things that we can not carry out know for the most part. YHWH does not change. Mal 3-6
Lets see Chris again.
Amazing! This is just about the best discussion on the subject (and maybe most subjects). I absolutely love the way that even both brothers are trying to make their points, they are allowing room for the other to speak their points, keeping modestly an open mind. This allows us to hear the good points to both opinions, as well as the grey areas etc... This is the way that such theological discussions should go. I am still deciding whether the New Covenant includes All Torah, most torah or much torah. As well if it is simply to a different people or simply deeper fulfilled truths.
This was great! why? because it really gives a good work out on testing ones belief system. Kudos to both of you for your passion!
Point 47:17...YHWH's Covenant that is and always was BASED ON YHWH'S HOLINESS, cannot change if HE NEVER changes !! Good midrash ! Thanks guys and yeah, please do more of these . Shalom!
A good topic for a future debate between Chris and Zach would be the meaning of the following verse:
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham was the first Hebrew: Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the >>Hebrew
The Baptist had warned the Jews not to think that being Abrahams' physical descendants was sufficient. Paul speaks of a spiritual descendent of Abraham who becomes one by faith in Jesus apart from the law.
That symbol you have there is not in scripture and is in fact, a hexagram.
I enjoyed the context of this video, however I think each person getting a set amount of time to complete their thought or point have view would have made this easier to follow.
Ehp 1:10. And Ephesians 3:2 dispensation is mentioned
Just wanted to pose a question:
I'm sure we can all agree that if we use The Infallible Word of God as our dictionary/or rather said as, use The Bible to interpret the Bible, we look at the first covenant ever mentioned, which is seen in Gen 6:18 and explained in Gen 9:9...what does this show us, when we look at the model of covenant making, and about how God makes a covenant, and how He still sees it to this day?? Are all His covenants connected? Gen 9:15 - 17 "...and I shall remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living being of all flesh, and never again let the waters become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the rainbow shall be in the clouds and I shall see it, to remember the everlasting covenant between Elohim and every living being of all flesh that is on the earth. And Elohim said to Noah, 'This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.'"
How does this tie in with what this debate is about? New vs old vs renewed covenant? There's got to be a connection or am I grasping at nothing here?
PS: How great is God, I got this book in the mail the other day and answered all my questions:
FYI for others with the same question.
ffoz.com/what-about-the-new-covenant.html
Luke 22:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Loved the video, please continue! You guys sound like me with my brothers in Yeshua!
he HEALED THEM. he didnt just TOUCH them. HE HEALED THEM!!!
so when he touched he she became alive. when he touched the leper he was healed!!
The New Covenant is not changed on God's side, so the change is on us.
What the Father did thru the Messiah's sacrifice - is being able to put the Father's law in our hearts and minds. Before this was not the case before.
Hey Zach, I agree with pretty much what you say. I have written a few books. I wouldnt mind coming on your show to have some discussion with you.
Good debate - Yeshua will straighten us all out.
Your most worthy opponent. Tie!
This types of discussions are good in that you see different perspective, but pointless if both parties are not willing to be wrong and seek the truth rather than trying to be right and defend your dogma.
There’s only 206 Torah commandment for me as a man. This is Zach Bauer speaking at 10:45-59. That’s why I have my Messiah now to fulfill that. But there will come a day (Isaiah 61) when I can return to a temple and complete these.
So let’s translate Zach, “ now I have the lesser (just the Messiah Jesus Yeshua Hamasia), but SOMEDAY I will have the greater, the temple in Jerusalem, to carry out my own sin sacrifices.”
Wow, audience, I hope you catch the power of what he’s saying, go back rewind the video. This is very opposite of which sacred scripture speaks of that Jesus is the much better. This is amazing someone leads his followers to this apprehensive teaching!! Wow!!! And with no embarrassment of blushing!!Wow!!!
And look I didn’t call him a single name.
That’s not really amazing....
I'm a bit confused by what you said "the flesh must be circumcised fist 15:10 of the video" when Israel was commanded to circumcise their male babies at 8 days old. I'm not sure how to fit all that.
Very happy to see civil respectful brotherly iron sharpening iron. Being the example.
"Those who keep the commandments and hold to the testimony of Yeshua"
Rev 12:17So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring-those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.
The Revelation 12:17 TLV
22:16 Regarding Peter's vision - Chris confuses oral law of rabbis with written Torah of Moses. Mark 7:7 - Yeshua made a distinction between commandments of YHVH and the commandments of men.
I like the video, and do agree with Chris on a lot of these issues. Yes I would like to see more!
Notice the passage in Galatians 5:19-21 says that they that do such things shall not "INHERIT" the Kingdom of God, it does not say ENTER. There is only one way to enter the Kingdom if God, by faith in Yeshua as our Messiah and Lord. Our inheritance (Ephesians 1:11) consists of everything that Yeshua died to redeem us from (the curse Deut 28:15-68) and all the things that he redeemed us to (the blessing of Abraham Deut 28:1-14).
I know this is an older video, but I think +Chris Shin hit the nail on the head when he asked Zach if the new covenant is active now, and Zach was unable to answer. I believe understanding the new and old covenants is the crux of the issue with all believers in Messiah, and will define how you live your life.
The point is WHO IS THE NEW COVENANT FOR. Jeremiah and Hebrews TELLS US. The HOUSE OF JUDAH and The HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
Zach, why haven't you come out with the T-Shirt "But Paul..."
The covenant is under new management ... from Levitical priesthood to Melchizedek priesthood.
Ezekiel 36:24-29 pertaining to the future...if we can't become unclean, why would Yah "save us from all your UNCLEANNESSES " vs29 am I miss interpretating it zack?
So, Zach, am I correct in hearing you say the only thing that has changed is the priesthood from the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood back to the Melchizedek priesthood, AND that that change in priesthood has only taken place because of the corruption of the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood?
Also, am I right in hearing you say there is no other change in His instructions (torah), even though Hebrews 7:12 says that when there is a change in the priesthood there is by necessity a change also in the law?
First of all, wasn't there another important reason for a change in the priesthood? Wasn't it also, and more importantly, because Messiah fulfilled the requirements of the task-master, tutor, the Levitical Laws set in place only until the time of reformation and because, by doing so, He restored the original covenant, as well as the conditions of the covenant, through Himself as the once-and-for-all atoning sacrifice and because He became the new great high priest, replacing Yochanan, of the former order?
If so, really, the actual Aaronic priesthood was NOT corrupt, because really, Yochanan, who was not corrupt, was actually the high priest, wasn't he? Wasn't Yochanan even aware of the coming, and possibly even beginning, the transition of the high priesthood, the priesthood itself, and maybe even the torah itself as well, as he was no longer functioning in the temple (because it had been corrupted) and he was proclaiming teshuvah and the coming of Messiah and His kingdom? Where were the sacrifices and the keeping of the other instructions of the temple service after the order of Aaron? If so, then the reason for the change in the priesthood is far more so for the reasons I am conjecturing here. And, if so, then maybe you could see there actually are other changes in His instructions (torah) in keeping with his Melchizedek priesthood, also, and not continuing in keeping with the same instructions after the old order of the Aaronic priesthood? After all, haven’t the instructions of the original covenant always been in effect and those of the Aaronic order only temporary?
Isn't there also a change in torah, not only because He now circumcises the hearts of His people, giving them the Ruach HaKodesh, and writing the torah on their hearts, but also because there has been an actual change in torah, itself? The instructions in keeping with the original covenant also make it a better covenant vs. the Levitical task-master, tutor, instructions. Don't you think there could be a corresponding difference between the Melchizedek high priest, priesthood, and the Book of the Covenant torah, and the Aaronic high priest, priesthood, and the Book of the Law torah? Also, He has restored His people back to being a kingdom OF priests after the order of Melchizedek, and not to a kingdom WITH priests after the order of Aaron, hasn't he?
If there was a temple now, like the one of old, or if there will be a temple in the future (by the works of man), would there not also need to be an Aaronic priesthood and an Aaronic high priest and animal sacrifices? Wouldn't we then have two high priests and two orders of priesthood and two ways of spiritual service of worship, one in which Messiah is our great high priest and our atoning sacrifice and the other in which there would need to be an Aaronic high priest and animal sacrifices and other temple services? Wouldn't that be crucifying again the son of man? Who needs two high priests and two orders of priesthoods and two ways of serving YHWH, when the better one has been restored and with a covenant in keeping with it based on better promises? Who needs the instructions in keeping with the former one (Levitical) when the instructions of the original one (Melchizedek) is now restored and being officiated by Messiah? Who needs the task-master, tutor, Aaronic priesthood now that Messiah has come? I didn’t need it to come to trust in Yeshua as Messiah or my great high priest. I only needed the Levitical laws to understand what He had fulfilled, what it meant, and to lead me back to a restored covenant and Melkizedek priesthood and covenant torah.
I say, let us keep the re-NEW-ed covenant and its torah (instructions/laws/commandments), and yes, that means with having a circumcised heart, receiving and living by the Ruach HaKodesh, with covenant torah written on our hearts, minus the Levitical laws not found in torah before the covenant was broken, before the Levitical laws were added as a task-master, tutor, until the time of reformation, the coming of Messiah, our great high priest, after the order of Melchizedek.
Jer 31:31 Behold,the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a >>newH2319>renewH2318
I need to ask this...What is the new covenant? where is it outlined? because when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13 it says it is a new covenant between Him and the house of Judah and Israel, that He will put his Torah "Law" into our minds and He will write them in our hearts. sounds to me like the old and the new are basically the same, just renewed because of the covenant we broke with YHWH.
If we recognize Paul's heresies, and stop trying to keep Paul's reputation intact, it becomes much easier to understand the truth. Zach, you are nearly there.