I was surprised when I applied the d curve to dialogue, not only did it sound crisper, it actually removed noise without having to apply a denoiser. Not sure if this was coincidental but worked perfectly and wasnt as render heavy as applying multiple effects to clean up the dialogue, thank you so much!
Fair enough, even the Dolby Surround Sound Mixing manual (available free online) says 79dB for smaller listening rooms, so I generally just put it in the middle at 82dB. 85 is typical for larger dubbing stages, although I know not everyone follows the same approach. I mix with speakers, headphones, and playback on different systems until I am satisfied. Cheers!!
Unsurprisingly I cannot get Orban to work, need to work out a way I can assure that the file is -20DBFS. Suggestions welcome. Happy to see you are using Sony software and the old realistic sound meter!
+Alex Boyesen - there are a couple more solutions.... 1) use a 1kHz tone set to -20dBFS right on the timeline, render it as a test tone, then re-import it and put it on a track with the volume at the default 100% level. Play the tone and set speakers to 85db (A-weighted to filter out the bass), download a -20dBFS 1kHz tone and put on timeline to adjust SPL, 3) download the -24LKFS voice sample (male and female), put on a track and adjust speakers to around 60dBSPL (this will work for TV, but for film, turn the actual vocal track down, maybe 3 dB or so, then set speakers to 60dBSPL - BUT, there is an argument to keep film dialogue just like TV dialogue. To be sure, take some samples scenes from fav film (or TV show) and put them on same track of timeline.
Still don't quite understand - if you tune your speakers to 85 db, than watch a movie at a "comfortable" level ? Would not that level be different to everybody? And what's the point of tuning speakers then?.. I thought I should watch movies at their unity gain - without changing volume. And then the dialog would be at 60 db Spl. Is that correct ?
Budjum Pavel Okay, cool, yes this is only for mixing at an accepted reference level, allowing for dynamic peaks above 85dB...people will listen at home at different levels, but cinemas will set a standard level and if they feel it is too loud (because of loud dynamic peaks - too many of them), they can turn the system down, which would affect dialogue and some sound FX (Foley and Ambience). So, this is an accepted calibration method to better predict playback levels (not perfect, but closer than just guessing)...cheers!
hi sir,what is the best manual eq settings for my front, Centre,surrounds and ceiling speakers,I'm using a denon av receiver with a 5.1.2 set up.I'm currently using 80 crossover for all my speakers.I saw your videos,and you recommend to use 85db for all speakers and 60 dB for Centre,your help is much needed here sir.
+RAVI KAMAL Hi! I said 85dB for every speaker....but it has been suggested to set the surrounds to 82dB.....I was saying 60dB is how dialogue should play back after speakers are set....and EQ each speaker as flat as possible.
Just want to add some things - take them or leave them. If you're mixing in a normal domestically-sized room, 85dBC is too loud. There's a Sound On Sound article I'll link to at the end of my comment which covers this. Furthermore, if you expect your pink noise to look flat on a Real Time Analyzer, you need to make sure it's set to have a -3dB/oct slope. Personally, I use Room EQ Wizard and a linear response condenser for this purpose but I understand that everyone needs to start where they are able. Remember that every dollar spent on acoustic treatment is at least $10 saved on other gear! Anyway, hope this helps. www.soundonsound.com/techniques/establishing-project-studio-reference-monitoring-levels
Thank you for this comment! I was trying to set my speakers to play pink noise at 85db in a room of size of about 25 cubic meters and I did not have a good time. This article is great!
@@logancain Yeah that's loud. Almost every mix engineer I've read or watched says they mix quietly. With the K20 system, your monitors will still be turned up but only so you can maintain reasonable levels in your DAW. Anyway, glad I could help save your ears :)
Hey Buck. Thank you for this video. Very instructive. I have an issue with the procedure though, namely setting the pink noise à - 20 dBLUFS. 've always calibrated my speakers with a pink noise at 0dB, and the results yielded were fine. I've reset my monitoring level so that my sound level meter will read 79 dB C-weighted (small studio) with a pink noise at -20dBLUFS. Now, everything is much too loud. Same thing with a 1 kHz tone. What am-I doing wrong? Thanks! EDIT: I've set a Hollywood movie dialogue to a comfortable level, and properly mixed music peaks at around 79 dB A-weighted. Said level is much lower than the one I've set with the pink noise at -20dBLUFS.
What is the value in LUFS of the Hollywood dialogue sample? If it is -20 on average, then try to lower it to -27 or so...maybe try a 440Hz tone set to -20. Then when that is set, the dialogue should play back at around 60dBSPL.
what I understand is the need to have always an objective reference video when bouncing audio. But can a youtube video be this reference since they normalize the materials when uploading?
yes, I just answered this on the other video you commented on, but you are correct.....the TH-cam downloads of film scenes actually matched the BluRay levels of, for example, The Dark Knight, and correlated with the dBSPL of the IMAX measurements. So, I choose a few different unaltered film and TV scenes as reference.
bacontrees what mic would recommend under $100 for getting good film production audio I know that it’s not sane as having $1000 mic but is it possible get film production using $100 mic with good audio mixing
Oh, I see, I have used a Sony ECM MS907 for years as a portable solution when I didn't have my AT815b with me.....I got street interviews, seated interviews, etc, and they all sounded great. Here is a video full of interviews, mostly with the Sony or the Zoom H1 used as the boom mic (both are around $100.00). Listen for the street interviews, the firefighter, the filmmaker, the recording engineer, the Canada Post guy, and more....like the two AV guys....all with the Sony mic.: th-cam.com/video/yROg7jQ0PIk/w-d-xo.html
+bacontrees Thank you so much!!! Yes not only I got your emails but your help was wonderful, what a great person you are! Te best !!! Thanks again Buck!! You are such a pro.
HI!! I have an important question. Its my first shot-documentary to show on fetsival i dony know if i should normalice audio. The audio now i think is at a low volume...Should I add -10 in LUFS?
You measure the audio and aim for -22LUFS, after using compression with 4:1 ratio & 25% gain reduction, as well as EQ'ing to control too much boomy or boxy sound. The documentary Fog of War, when I measured it, was about -20LUFS, but -22 will get you more to TV levels, and shouldn't be too bad for a cinema, but you should do a sound test just to be sure, or ask that particular festival if they have a dialogue loudness guideline. They usually post those details on their websites.
Actually, pretty much the same. The difference is the K-weighting curve as part of the LKFS/LUFS measurement, which is for intelligibility, mainly. But the dBFS and LKFS/LUFS are essentially the same. It is the dBSPL which is the more difficult one to assess because of the myriad playback situations for the listeners.
This is some great information, studying film in school and as a freshman i still have much to learn but i love the technicality of sound and working in a DAW. How did you go about being more involved in sound? did you go to school to specialize, a hobby, or did you just happen to do sound discovering you were good at it? What would happen if you were to mix a movie that was too compressed like they have it for music?
Nate Attias Thanks for the inquiry! I have been recording sounds since I was 11 and kept buying better tape recorders. At 20, I was in a band and was the one responsible for both recording songs and mixing us at smaller clubs. I started recording and mixing professionally in 1998 (sound FX, music, soundtracks..). I went to school (at 18) for animated filmmaking, but learned more from buying from buying gear (they were not focused on sound)...I would never mix an over-compressed movie! Movies should have some dynamic range to affect the audience (25-35dB from quiet to loud) as opposed to modern music (less than 5dB! Like a TV ad).
bacontrees In my opinion, most modern music is too compressed too seem 'louder' (not better) and movies are way too dynamic (quiet dialogue and ear-bursting sound FX). Each respective industry went opposite ways - the former being too much of the same volume and the latter being too loud compared to loudest sound FX. I hope to a part of the solution....cheers! Any DAW inquiries, please send some questions and/or discussions.
bacontrees thats really awesome! I started recording myself ever since my older brother bought me a condensor mic at 14. Sound is truley fascinating I love playing around with it its amazing how frequencies correspond to each other! its funny how both industries took totally different paths. How did you go about specializing in sound? I want to persue it in school but the lack of courses available for sound is making it challenging. Did you take vocational classes? Sound designers honestly dont get the cred the deserve!
Nate Attias Hi Nate! I wanted to specialize in something, and since I was a musician and recording guy, I was looking at schools that would teach me 'a la carte' subjects, but none would; they were all full time programs. So, I got books from my library and read them over and over AS I was experimenting in my home studio with sound (also touring with the band helped a lot). That was the long way to do it...I have been teaching this at a career college since 2001 and they have a fully loaded program (the fast way to do it). Education, whether part of a program or on your own, or both, is vital. I had even shadowed some sound people at work and asked a lot of questions from veterans of the scene. I did all that 'til I felt confident in my own abilities. Hope this helps! Cheers!
I Just Love your channel !! so interesting !! I have a question...I have been asked to mix a documentary that will be played in the theatre. They ran out of budget and i would like to help them. My only problem is that I am mixing with a a pair of headphones (AKG K240 MKII) which are pretty flat. But how can i set the dialogue to roughly 63db ??
That's a little more tricky - I actually measure what I can from the headphone output to get around 60dB (but there's not much air being pushed by them) and correlate that with what 'normal' sounds like for dialogue. As long as the dialogue averages - 27 (for film) or - 24 (for TV), then judge the rest of the stems on that. Some people mix dialogue to an average of - 30dB +/-, sometimes less by a few dB, allowing for some peaks to hit - 20 (depends on compression and volume automation choices). I would then compare my mix to other commercial mixes and adjust until it feels right. But, I do also rely on what my meters are showing me and what my loudness meter is showing me (I use the free Orban Loudness Meter). Thanks for the comment!! Let me know if this helps.
Thank you for your reply. I have the WLM plus plugin and at the moment it is measuring -26 LKFS (Long term). From what i understood it will be played in a Medium size Cinema. Do you think i should trim it to -27 ? or + - 1 db wouldn't make much difference ?
Depends on the EQ settings, the compression and any limiting. Also, the level of the loudest sound FX will determine the overall playback level of the cinema. If you send a ample scene of dialogue scene (like, 20 - 30 seconds) and the loudest peak (a few seconds sample), I would be happy to analyze it for you (no charge, of course, I just am curious). If not, no worries, but yes the dialogue should sit under -25dB, but not below -30dB, and loudest FX should maybe reach -2dB max. The mixing style of the loudest FX will also be a factor in actual playback levels of the particular cinema. Feel free to email me at: bacontrees@yahoo.ca for more discussion...cheers!
My whole cinematic mix is hitting around -9 db, is that a good spot for cinematic stuff, or should it be more closer to 0 db or -20 db for the overall mix?...SBN
Do you mean 'peaking' at -9, or averaging -9? If averaging -9, then that's a pretty hot signal. Really, the 'anchor element' (generally dialogue) should average -27 or so for film, and -24 (+/-2dB) for TV, and maybe -20 for internet. The peaks can go as high as -2, but just for instantaneous peaks.
@@bacontrees It's peaking and averaging right around -9 db. It sounds great on my mini speaker and audio technica headphones, but why is cinematic music mixed different from hip hop and other genres of music? Is thay so because they want to make the cinematic music seem like it's in the background or in the distance, because these cinematic mixes I hear are just as loud as hip hop and other mixes?
@@natanmandala - well, actually, the cinematic dialogue is mixed around -27 to -30 dBFS, with loud sound FX peaking up to -2dBFS, then ambience under dialogue and music mixed around dialogue and FX, but music mixed up high to -9dBFS average is too loud. The cinema mix is designed for the cinema room, with the right acoustic treatment and plush seats, and the dialogue coming through the speakers at 60dBSPL or so for normal conversational levels. So, pretty dynamic mix, but music must be mixed around the D and FX.
And a very compressed mix, like you are describing, will sound good through small speakers and is better suited for internet, but that -9 level average still seems too hot. Maybe measure it with a loudness meter (I use Orban Loudness Meter).
Hey Buck! Great video, thanks. When radiating the pink noise through speakers to set the proper levels, should the pink noise be summed to mono, or should they remain radiating through the speakers in a stereo image?
Trigon Productions Great question! I usually just do stereo - both speakers at the same time - just like I am mixing, but I suppose a mono-sum reading could be compared to stereo....but ultimately however I am mixing (assuming no phase issues with the speakers/wiring). Another approach is to do one speaker at a time, very good for surround, and helpful for simple stereo. I am going to follow up with a surround vs stereo vs mono video. Interesting note - Stanley Kubrick had some of his best films mixed in mono and they sound great.
bacontrees I will check some more of his films, thanks! I asked this question too because when I first tried this, my meter surpassed 85 dBC almost immediately on the SPL meter app. Granted, I was using an app and not an actual SPL meter, but I just want to make sure I am in the ball park. I'll keep trying. My second question pertains to flattening my frequency response once I have successfully reached 85 dBC. I work in Pro Tools. Before starting my film mix, should I insert that graphic EQ as the first chain on my Master bus?
The EQ would be the last thing in the signal chain...affecting the whole timeline...so, the master bus, yes, would get the 31 band. As long as it affects everything.
bacontrees Thank you so much! I'm sure you are fairly busy, but I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this. I'm trying to improve on the little things everyday.
you cant make your speakers liner with EQ , there is so much going on that i wont goin to it , but if it was possible , more modern systems that also dont work if you move your head , wouldn't exist
Well, nothing is perfect and there will be variances, for sure. But, you can make your speakers more balanced in the room you are listening in....also, mixing by comparison is valid with imperfect scenarios. Cheers!
Mixing via comparison, off course , EQing your speakers no, there is too much variables , i know so much about it that i know that i dont know anything , if i imagine a beginner , eqing his monitors , its not gonna end well. My 2 cents
Confused - You say dialogue should sit around 60db measured with a handheld meter. If you've calibrated -20db internal metered pink noise as output of 85db, then 0db internal meter will be 105db output, and therefore dialogue at an output of 60db would be -55db internal scale?! But you mention at the end of the video that it is between -20 and 30db?!!! Confused -20db meter = 85db output -0db meter = 105db output -55db meter = 60db output (but you talk about it being around -20db to -30db meter level???????!) Confused
So, pink noise at -20dBFS is a common test signal, to equal 85dBSPL at the listening position. Once that is done, then dialogue is mixed compared with loudest sound FX. I'm saying that typical soundtrack dialogue just happens to be measured at around 60dBSPL. The digital scale on the timeline is less dynamic than the SPL measured from speakers at listening distance and the two scales are therefore not identical. So, a lot of mixer have their dialogue at around -30dBFS, or -24 for TV, or -20 for internet, but when we listen back, most people seem comfortable with levels between 58 and 65 dBSPL when actually measured. This is not an exact science, but the pink noise is at least a decent reference tool among others, such as a 400Hz tone, like some choose to use, or by comparing to other soundtracks, which I prefer, in conjunction with pink noise, but set at around 82dBSPL. These are only guidelines and better than not calibrating at all, so when a better method comes along, I'm sure we will be trying that. I guess the most important part is to keep your dialogue levels audible and clear, and mix to a sensible dynamic range.
This the most insightful video about sound mixing for films I've seen so far! Thax for the info!
I was looking for this kind of knowledge for a while, thanks a lot !
Great information here, thank you. As camera guy I just realized I know nothing about sound. Looking forward to pt 3!
Just discovered your mixing for film series. Love it, can't wait for more!
I was surprised when I applied the d curve to dialogue, not only did it sound crisper, it actually removed noise without having to apply a denoiser. Not sure if this was coincidental but worked perfectly and wasnt as render heavy as applying multiple effects to clean up the dialogue, thank you so much!
Awesome! Thanks for the feedback!!
As usual great video Buck!
Wow! Long time no see ) Great to see you back
very interesting info. Thanks for the video.
Thank you!!! you probably saved my film with this info!
Awesome!! Thanks for the feedback on this info...let me know if there is anything else you want info on...cheers!
85 dBFS is a bit loud....go for 80...
Fair enough, even the Dolby Surround Sound Mixing manual (available free online) says 79dB for smaller listening rooms, so I generally just put it in the middle at 82dB. 85 is typical for larger dubbing stages, although I know not everyone follows the same approach. I mix with speakers, headphones, and playback on different systems until I am satisfied. Cheers!!
Unsurprisingly I cannot get Orban to work, need to work out a way I can assure that the file is -20DBFS. Suggestions welcome. Happy to see you are using Sony software and the old realistic sound meter!
+Alex Boyesen - there are a couple more solutions.... 1) use a 1kHz tone set to -20dBFS right on the timeline, render it as a test tone, then re-import it and put it on a track with the volume at the default 100% level. Play the tone and set speakers to 85db (A-weighted to filter out the bass), download a -20dBFS 1kHz tone and put on timeline to adjust SPL, 3) download the -24LKFS voice sample (male and female), put on a track and adjust speakers to around 60dBSPL (this will work for TV, but for film, turn the actual vocal track down, maybe 3 dB or so, then set speakers to 60dBSPL - BUT, there is an argument to keep film dialogue just like TV dialogue.
To be sure, take some samples scenes from fav film (or TV show) and put them on same track of timeline.
+Alex Boyesen - I am going to find that speech sample .wav file and share it...cheers!
+bacontrees - found it! atsc.org/refs/a85/Speech_sample.wav
+bacontrees - another useful link! scarycow.com/sound/
Thanks Buck! This is all greatly appreciated the effort that you are making to help people. Many thanks and more power to your elbow.
Thank you very much for sharing this. :)
really great tips. thanx so much
i will try it out at my actually project^^
(hope my english isn´t to bad. understanding is much easier for me^^)
Still don't quite understand - if you tune your speakers to 85 db, than watch a movie at a "comfortable" level ? Would not that level be different to everybody? And what's the point of tuning speakers then?.. I thought I should watch movies at their unity gain - without changing volume. And then the dialog would be at 60 db Spl. Is that correct ?
Oh, i think I get it now..
Budjum Pavel Okay, cool, yes this is only for mixing at an accepted reference level, allowing for dynamic peaks above 85dB...people will listen at home at different levels, but cinemas will set a standard level and if they feel it is too loud (because of loud dynamic peaks - too many of them), they can turn the system down, which would affect dialogue and some sound FX (Foley and Ambience). So, this is an accepted calibration method to better predict playback levels (not perfect, but closer than just guessing)...cheers!
hi sir,what is the best manual eq settings for my front, Centre,surrounds and ceiling speakers,I'm using a denon av receiver with a 5.1.2 set up.I'm currently using 80 crossover for all my speakers.I saw your videos,and you recommend to use 85db for all speakers and 60 dB for Centre,your help is much needed here sir.
+RAVI KAMAL Hi! I said 85dB for every speaker....but it has been suggested to set the surrounds to 82dB.....I was saying 60dB is how dialogue should play back after speakers are set....and EQ each speaker as flat as possible.
Just want to add some things - take them or leave them. If you're mixing in a normal domestically-sized room, 85dBC is too loud. There's a Sound On Sound article I'll link to at the end of my comment which covers this. Furthermore, if you expect your pink noise to look flat on a Real Time Analyzer, you need to make sure it's set to have a -3dB/oct slope. Personally, I use Room EQ Wizard and a linear response condenser for this purpose but I understand that everyone needs to start where they are able. Remember that every dollar spent on acoustic treatment is at least $10 saved on other gear! Anyway, hope this helps.
www.soundonsound.com/techniques/establishing-project-studio-reference-monitoring-levels
Thank you for this comment! I was trying to set my speakers to play pink noise at 85db in a room of size of about 25 cubic meters and I did not have a good time. This article is great!
@@logancain Yeah that's loud. Almost every mix engineer I've read or watched says they mix quietly. With the K20 system, your monitors will still be turned up but only so you can maintain reasonable levels in your DAW. Anyway, glad I could help save your ears :)
@@Hexspa Saved my ears too
Hello. ..Thanks for this very imp information...when 3rd part of this series is releasing..?
+Siddhesh Kavitake - here it is - th-cam.com/video/sE4UDZwd12Q/w-d-xo.html
Hey Buck. Thank you for this video. Very instructive. I have an issue with the procedure though, namely setting the pink noise à - 20 dBLUFS. 've always calibrated my speakers with a pink noise at 0dB, and the results yielded were fine. I've reset my monitoring level so that my sound level meter will read 79 dB C-weighted (small studio) with a pink noise at -20dBLUFS. Now, everything is much too loud. Same thing with a 1 kHz tone. What am-I doing wrong? Thanks!
EDIT: I've set a Hollywood movie dialogue to a comfortable level, and properly mixed music peaks at around 79 dB A-weighted. Said level is much lower than the one I've set with the pink noise at -20dBLUFS.
What is the value in LUFS of the Hollywood dialogue sample? If it is -20 on average, then try to lower it to -27 or so...maybe try a 440Hz tone set to -20. Then when that is set, the dialogue should play back at around 60dBSPL.
cheers!
what I understand is the need to have always an objective reference video when bouncing audio. But can a youtube video be this reference since they normalize the materials when uploading?
yes, I just answered this on the other video you commented on, but you are correct.....the TH-cam downloads of film scenes actually matched the BluRay levels of, for example, The Dark Knight, and correlated with the dBSPL of the IMAX measurements. So, I choose a few different unaltered film and TV scenes as reference.
Can I get dialog audio output using cheap $100 shotgun mic input audio to be mix with iPhone mixing app
I'm trying to understand....can you rephrase that? Cheers!
bacontrees what mic would recommend under $100 for getting good film production audio I know that it’s not sane as having $1000 mic but is it possible get film production using $100 mic with good audio mixing
Oh, I see, I have used a Sony ECM MS907 for years as a portable solution when I didn't have my AT815b with me.....I got street interviews, seated interviews, etc, and they all sounded great. Here is a video full of interviews, mostly with the Sony or the Zoom H1 used as the boom mic (both are around $100.00).
Listen for the street interviews, the firefighter, the filmmaker, the recording engineer, the Canada Post guy, and more....like the two AV guys....all with the Sony mic.:
th-cam.com/video/yROg7jQ0PIk/w-d-xo.html
So, yes, it is possible to get good sound with a less expensive microphone...I did some EQ to enhance the sound, though, but not much.
bacontrees Zoom hi and sony sound great!!!! Could I use rode micme L i assume any consumer inexpensive mic will work as long as it mix right
Amazing thank you!
I bet he mixed this youtube video. META!
Great video. Will u be able to mix audio for a indie movie I working on ? Thanks
Thanks! Email me at bacontrees@yahoo.ca and send me the details. Cheers!
@@bacontrees email sent !
Short question: To calibrate my speakers to 85dBSPL , the Pink Noise has to read -20dB in my Timeline Master Meter?
+Carlos Bruno - not exactly, it's an average reading....peaks may seem higher....I have emailed you...cheers!
+bacontrees Thank you so much!!! Yes not only I got your emails but your help was wonderful, what a great person you are! Te best !!! Thanks again Buck!! You are such a pro.
Carlos Bruno Thanks for the comment, I'm glad I could help! happy holidays!!
HI!! I have an important question.
Its my first shot-documentary to show on fetsival i dony know if i should normalice audio.
The audio now i think is at a low volume...Should I add -10 in LUFS?
You measure the audio and aim for -22LUFS, after using compression with 4:1 ratio & 25% gain reduction, as well as EQ'ing to control too much boomy or boxy sound. The documentary Fog of War, when I measured it, was about -20LUFS, but -22 will get you more to TV levels, and shouldn't be too bad for a cinema, but you should do a sound test just to be sure, or ask that particular festival if they have a dialogue loudness guideline. They usually post those details on their websites.
How would you translate this to modern LUFS meters?
Actually, pretty much the same. The difference is the K-weighting curve as part of the LKFS/LUFS measurement, which is for intelligibility, mainly. But the dBFS and LKFS/LUFS are essentially the same. It is the dBSPL which is the more difficult one to assess because of the myriad playback situations for the listeners.
hi sir i have a basic question, can i mix a film or documentary using earphones
+Pratik Shetty - Yes. Best way is to compare the levels to other docs and then check it on a TV or home theatre system.
Thank you very much sir keep up the good work
This is some great information, studying film in school and as a freshman i still have much to learn but i love the technicality of sound and working in a DAW. How did you go about being more involved in sound? did you go to school to specialize, a hobby, or did you just happen to do sound discovering you were good at it? What would happen if you were to mix a movie that was too compressed like they have it for music?
Nate Attias Thanks for the inquiry! I have been recording sounds since I was 11 and kept buying better tape recorders. At 20, I was in a band and was the one responsible for both recording songs and mixing us at smaller clubs. I started recording and mixing professionally in 1998 (sound FX, music, soundtracks..). I went to school (at 18) for animated filmmaking, but learned more from buying from buying gear (they were not focused on sound)...I would never mix an over-compressed movie! Movies should have some dynamic range to affect the audience (25-35dB from quiet to loud) as opposed to modern music (less than 5dB! Like a TV ad).
bacontrees In my opinion, most modern music is too compressed too seem 'louder' (not better) and movies are way too dynamic (quiet dialogue and ear-bursting sound FX). Each respective industry went opposite ways - the former being too much of the same volume and the latter being too loud compared to loudest sound FX. I hope to a part of the solution....cheers! Any DAW inquiries, please send some questions and/or discussions.
bacontrees thats really awesome! I started recording myself ever since my older brother bought me a condensor mic at 14. Sound is truley fascinating I love playing around with it its amazing how frequencies correspond to each other! its funny how both industries took totally different paths. How did you go about specializing in sound? I want to persue it in school but the lack of courses available for sound is making it challenging. Did you take vocational classes? Sound designers honestly dont get the cred the deserve!
Nate Attias Hi Nate! I wanted to specialize in something, and since I was a musician and recording guy, I was looking at schools that would teach me 'a la carte' subjects, but none would; they were all full time programs. So, I got books from my library and read them over and over AS I was experimenting in my home studio with sound (also touring with the band helped a lot). That was the long way to do it...I have been teaching this at a career college since 2001 and they have a fully loaded program (the fast way to do it). Education, whether part of a program or on your own, or both, is vital. I had even shadowed some sound people at work and asked a lot of questions from veterans of the scene. I did all that 'til I felt confident in my own abilities. Hope this helps! Cheers!
I Just Love your channel !! so interesting !! I have a question...I have been asked to mix a documentary that will be played in the theatre. They ran out of budget and i would like to help them. My only problem is that I am mixing with a a pair of headphones (AKG K240 MKII) which are pretty flat. But how can i set the dialogue to roughly 63db ??
That's a little more tricky - I actually measure what I can from the headphone output to get around 60dB (but there's not much air being pushed by them) and correlate that with what 'normal' sounds like for dialogue. As long as the dialogue averages - 27 (for film) or - 24 (for TV), then judge the rest of the stems on that. Some people mix dialogue to an average of - 30dB +/-, sometimes less by a few dB, allowing for some peaks to hit - 20 (depends on compression and volume automation choices).
I would then compare my mix to other commercial mixes and adjust until it feels right. But, I do also rely on what my meters are showing me and what my loudness meter is showing me (I use the free Orban Loudness Meter).
Thanks for the comment!! Let me know if this helps.
Thank you for your reply. I have the WLM plus plugin and at the moment it is measuring -26 LKFS (Long term). From what i understood it will be played in a Medium size Cinema. Do you think i should trim it to -27 ? or + - 1 db wouldn't make much difference ?
Depends on the EQ settings, the compression and any limiting. Also, the level of the loudest sound FX will determine the overall playback level of the cinema. If you send a ample scene of dialogue scene (like, 20 - 30 seconds) and the loudest peak (a few seconds sample), I would be happy to analyze it for you (no charge, of course, I just am curious).
If not, no worries, but yes the dialogue should sit under -25dB, but not below -30dB, and loudest FX should maybe reach -2dB max.
The mixing style of the loudest FX will also be a factor in actual playback levels of the particular cinema. Feel free to email me at: bacontrees@yahoo.ca for more discussion...cheers!
Thank you so much !! I still need couple of days and i will send you a sample for sure !!! BIG THANKS !!
No problem, I look forward to it.
My whole cinematic mix is hitting around -9 db, is that a good spot for cinematic stuff, or should it be more closer to 0 db or -20 db for the overall mix?...SBN
Do you mean 'peaking' at -9, or averaging -9? If averaging -9, then that's a pretty hot signal. Really, the 'anchor element' (generally dialogue) should average -27 or so for film, and -24 (+/-2dB) for TV, and maybe -20 for internet. The peaks can go as high as -2, but just for instantaneous peaks.
@@bacontrees It's peaking and averaging right around -9 db. It sounds great on my mini speaker and audio technica headphones, but why is cinematic music mixed different from hip hop and other genres of music? Is thay so because they want to make the cinematic music seem like it's in the background or in the distance, because these cinematic mixes I hear are just as loud as hip hop and other mixes?
@@natanmandala - well, actually, the cinematic dialogue is mixed around -27 to -30 dBFS, with loud sound FX peaking up to -2dBFS, then ambience under dialogue and music mixed around dialogue and FX, but music mixed up high to -9dBFS average is too loud. The cinema mix is designed for the cinema room, with the right acoustic treatment and plush seats, and the dialogue coming through the speakers at 60dBSPL or so for normal conversational levels. So, pretty dynamic mix, but music must be mixed around the D and FX.
And a very compressed mix, like you are describing, will sound good through small speakers and is better suited for internet, but that -9 level average still seems too hot. Maybe measure it with a loudness meter (I use Orban Loudness Meter).
Your are great man
Hey Buck! Great video, thanks.
When radiating the pink noise through speakers to set the proper levels, should the pink noise be summed to mono, or should they remain radiating through the speakers in a stereo image?
Trigon Productions Great question! I usually just do stereo - both speakers at the same time - just like I am mixing, but I suppose a mono-sum reading could be compared to stereo....but ultimately however I am mixing (assuming no phase issues with the speakers/wiring). Another approach is to do one speaker at a time, very good for surround, and helpful for simple stereo. I am going to follow up with a surround vs stereo vs mono video. Interesting note - Stanley Kubrick had some of his best films mixed in mono and they sound great.
bacontrees I will check some more of his films, thanks! I asked this question too because when I first tried this, my meter surpassed 85 dBC almost immediately on the SPL meter app. Granted, I was using an app and not an actual SPL meter, but I just want to make sure I am in the ball park. I'll keep trying.
My second question pertains to flattening my frequency response once I have successfully reached 85 dBC. I work in Pro Tools. Before starting my film mix, should I insert that graphic EQ as the first chain on my Master bus?
The EQ would be the last thing in the signal chain...affecting the whole timeline...so, the master bus, yes, would get the 31 band. As long as it affects everything.
bacontrees Thank you so much! I'm sure you are fairly busy, but I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this. I'm trying to improve on the little things everyday.
Trigon Productions No worries! Glad I helped out...cheers!
I’m very independent filmmaker if I have $100 what shotgun microphone would you use
I sometimes use my Sony ECMMS907 mini shotgun mic. Sounds great!!
bacontrees is the mixing done right can get pro quality out of $100 mic they ready for theatrical release
you cant make your speakers liner with EQ , there is so much going on that i wont goin to it , but if it was possible , more modern systems that also dont work if you move your head , wouldn't exist
Well, nothing is perfect and there will be variances, for sure. But, you can make your speakers more balanced in the room you are listening in....also, mixing by comparison is valid with imperfect scenarios. Cheers!
Mixing via comparison, off course , EQing your speakers no, there is too much variables , i know so much about it that i know that i dont know anything , if i imagine a beginner , eqing his monitors , its not gonna end well. My 2 cents
Confused - You say dialogue should sit around 60db measured with a handheld meter. If you've calibrated -20db internal metered pink noise as output of 85db, then 0db internal meter will be 105db output, and therefore dialogue at an output of 60db would be -55db internal scale?! But you mention at the end of the video that it is between -20 and 30db?!!! Confused
-20db meter = 85db output
-0db meter = 105db output
-55db meter = 60db output (but you talk about it being around -20db to -30db meter level???????!) Confused
So, pink noise at -20dBFS is a common test signal, to equal 85dBSPL at the listening position. Once that is done, then dialogue is mixed compared with loudest sound FX. I'm saying that typical soundtrack dialogue just happens to be measured at around 60dBSPL. The digital scale on the timeline is less dynamic than the SPL measured from speakers at listening distance and the two scales are therefore not identical. So, a lot of mixer have their dialogue at around -30dBFS, or -24 for TV, or -20 for internet, but when we listen back, most people seem comfortable with levels between 58 and 65 dBSPL when actually measured.
This is not an exact science, but the pink noise is at least a decent reference tool among others, such as a 400Hz tone, like some choose to use, or by comparing to other soundtracks, which I prefer, in conjunction with pink noise, but set at around 82dBSPL. These are only guidelines and better than not calibrating at all, so when a better method comes along, I'm sure we will be trying that.
I guess the most important part is to keep your dialogue levels audible and clear, and mix to a sensible dynamic range.