Its heart warming knowing you love it so much. :3 imma pin your heartfelt comment to the top of the comments section to honour your time in complementing the many varied differences we all share. Such a wholesome hooman ye be. :3
RIP my brain, it was fun knowing you, you will be missed. I don't know what to think about this theory, I want to argue that Link couldn't affect the adult and downfall timelines from the child timeline, but honestly anything can happen in Zelda. I'm gonna think about this tomorrow, I used all my brain power just absorbing this theory lol.
I got pretty lost while watching this. 😅 If I understand this correctly, you're saying Majoras Mask Link went back in time to prepare a way for the other Links to beat Ocarina of Time, and you think Majoras Mask Link beat Ocarina of Time without the Lens of Truth or the Song of Time?
xD It near broke my brain to write it, without spoiling the actualy science topic as I plan to ...return very soon to tackle that subject....directly XD Glad this thought experiment pushed your thonk powers to maximum!!! :3
@@aarongrubbmusic xD if that was true id have a massive neck and back ache all the time. Physically its just not feasable having an oversized head my dude. (in more ways than one) :') Glad you enjoyed the brain tease though :3
Great video, have not seen a theory like this before! Sadly the "real" answer is probably "the developers thought it would be a fun little thing to include and didn't think twice about it" lol
The downfall timeline was confirmed to exist when Link died to Ganondorf after awakening ALL the sages. The events of the Downfall Timeline had ALL the Sages seal Ganon(who obtained the Full Triforce) into the Sacred Realm which later transformed into the Dark World.
from what Im trying to I guess illustrate is the idea that there are many many more layers of timelines than what you just see illustrated. I had a lot of time discussing lore and what you posited does come up, what I posed during the tangent is one possible outcome for the downfall timelines occurence, regarding the sages and the full triforce...theres a rather interesting point to make. Firstly are all the sages the same people, and with the same level of competance as those in the other timlines. Did one of the sages perhaps not have their powers fully realised? Was the seal inferior perhaps due to this? Also big point to ponder: How could they seal Ganon when he has the full triforce? ..unless......something...fishy is going on with the triforce Ganon has in that timeline.
guru teaches link and told him what happened in the past. link time traveled back and drained the well before the original kid could so he could get the lens. the playthrough is what happens
the flow on effect. Yes. You are living out a path pre-etched in space-time. The video's concept is indeed written that the playthrough is simply another link. Not THE Link. This Links reality, we experiece however is Pivotal towards the end of the cycle of events. The First Link to every exist and the others whom served as cogs turning wheels you will likely never see, but you will experience strange and out of place markers of their existance. (inforation or objects with no discernable origin for the reference point of the person encountering them) WE the player get to see this whole situation from the inside, and if you think laterally you can visualize it from the top down. Seperate tangental thought process BUT! The funny part of this is that there would be so many seperate realities. Also, if the Mastersword's time travel mechanic is anything to go off, we've created a split each time its used.....imagine counting them all, and adding up each time we split the timelines in Majora's Mask as well!!! Egads!!! (I may have already averaged the numbers over a live stream btw and it may not already be a thing I have had in the works XD....) anyway have a big brained, Thonky Day Joseph!
@@Thinkafurr i actually just beat that game for the first time. i was slightly too young to figure it out when my brother had it, when it came out. Nintendo icebergs, especially Zelda, are too cool not to look into,.. and i just thought, whats that song playing in the background of the windmill hut?
On one hand. I feel like this is just mental gymnastics to tie in Link's learning song of storms in MM to Oot. In the other. I really respect that this guy is conscious and explicit when going into tangents.
:3 thank you Pineapple! xD seems like mornings are the best time to read comments! I have a lot more content coming and I always aim to make my subscribers proud! I hope to bring my thoughts to the screen soon stay tuned!
they are just links trapped in a cycle all will reach the point where Link 3 was but Link 3..is a link who existed before any splits and some how did everything without the song of storms initially I hope this allows you to look at this thought experiment with a fresh perspective when you try re-assessing it again.
Ayy!! thanks so much for your support! :3 glad you enjoyed the video ^__^ welcome to the channel XD There is always content in the works, theres a pokemon and zelda theory already under way so keep your eyes peeled!
You missed an interesting thing. The Heroes Shade is missing an eye. The Lens of Truth can see what Link used to be able to see. Link plucked out his own eye and put it into the lens!
So, if we switched links 1 and 2 around, link 2 goes to termina..... Then is it link 3 that came back with the song of storms? I got lost when you included the third link
i choose to believe the Steins gate principle of world lines, I believe at the first point on jumping forward in time this split in to two lines then going back split into another 2 lines and then any more travels would have created alternate realities, also also believe that the only reason the guy in the wind mill cant remember the song of storms is because in his old age hes gone senile , the reason i believe this is before you even learn the song of storms its playing in the windmill
the problem it poses has indeed existed for a long time. Personally I've never seen anyone directly address the "cause" nor try to explain that cause. The origins of the paradox has fascinated me since I first got a copy of Ocarina of Time as a child and met Guru Guru XD and because its such an important question for me I really wanted to go all out on this video :3 I hope you enjoyed the thought experiment and walk away with more conclusions of your own to think on this is 100 percent a thought experiment aimed at preparing you to understand a concept much deeper, one that I haven't directly stated but will be touching upon directly later in the "time travel in Zelda" series.
Its interesting because I had a similar theory about Link in OOT, having 3 Links total, but the reasoning was very different. You know how in DBZ there was the main timeline, the future timeline, and the Cell timeline (where Trunks was killed); this was essentially the same concept. In OOT there are two methods of time travel, the Master Sword and then later, the Ocarina of Time. Zelda sending Link back basically ensured the existence of 3 timelines. Link1 is the main Link. He is the Link from OOT who clears the first three dungeons and becomes Adult Link, who would go on to defeat Ganon. Link3 is also Child Link, but with a time disparity. He is the same as Link1, except he went back via the Song of Time as played by Zelda. This leaves one other version of Link however... Link2. THIS Link is the same as Link1, he cleared the first 3 dungeons and pulled the Master Sword. But when he did, he never returned. The reason for this is because his return happened later, in a different timeline; the reason why in a different timeline is because Zelda brought him back using her ocarina rather than Link personally using the Master Sword. So how do any of these Links relate to the Song of Storms though? Well they don't. The origin of the Song of Storms lies in Termina, and specifically the Ikana Graveyard. The only person who travelled between Termina and Hyrule at that time was Skull Kid. Who's to say that he didn't find a way beneath the Ikana Graveyard? It's possible because Dampe's house connects to the underground grave system. Before he cursed the region using the powers of Majora's Mask, it is entirely possible that Skull Kid learned the Song of Storms from beneath the graves. Not only that, but it is possible that he had possession of a fairy ocarina or at least a flute (like in Twilight Princess) and one of his pranks during OOT's seven year time skip was playing the Song of Storms inside the windmill. This would explain why when Link returns GuruGuru is in the mental headspace that he is in and would also clear up the paradox. Rather than Link essentially teaching the song to his future self, it was actually the Skull Kid who taught the song he learned in Termina to the GuruGuru of Hyrule. That was my theory lol
Firstly that's a fantastic way to look at it! Secondly...time travel in DBZ is hilarious xD and the fact you mention it really gives me an urge to want to cover DBZ time travel :')
When Link plays the Song of Storms at MM, the message displayed is "you remembered the song of storms". So no, Link from MM did not do all that stuff you said because he already knew the song prior to entering Termina
Thanks so much for tuning in Thinkers! For MORE Theories: SUBSCRIBE to Thinkafurr here - th-cam.com/users/Thinkafurr SOCIAL MEDIA: TWITTER - twitter.com/Christafurr1 DISCORD: discord.gg/CNyn8tm FACEBOOK - facebook.com/1Christafurr1/
The link that we see in Majora's mask is older than the one in Ocarina of Time. So if the guy that teaches Link the song storm as an adult said that exactly 7 years ago Link played the song, this doesn't make sense because Majora's Mask happens about 2 years later after Ocarina of time, where Epona is old enough to carry Link on her back. The only way that I see this possible is if after the events of Majora's mask, Link used the Ocarina to go back in time before those two years that passed between games.
So look. I said link(the first like to ever exist) completes oot,(in a weird and different way) transitions to MM, sets up the paradox after by going back in time to drop the lense and song of storms. Hope that helps. :3
There is one other perspective that could explain it. The 3 cursed by Demise are forced to live together repeating the Tired same old battle over and over. So theoretically, when the Link from OoT gets sealed in the Sacred Realm for 7 years, another was born because by Time's Perspective The third piece no longer exists in that timeline. So Time (or the Courage Triforce or however that is understood) would NEED to choose a New Link to complete the Trinity. He would have been sent back in hopes of closing the loop BUUUUT the Adult timeline still exists even after the the Loop was believed to be closed. So that means the Loop never really was properly closed leaving an odd Link out.
That's actually a fantastic angle! The influence of the curse of Demise is something I had not considered in the equation although...perhaps Vaati is something to consider too. There is evidence of Vaati's historical encounters through OOT and also MM.
There is an entire Onions crop worth of layers in Zelda lore, don't feel bad. XD I continually discover things to this day! What was your favourite mystery from zelda? Or top 5 if it's too hard to pick?
The link we play at the beginning of oot is already the hero of time. We do manage to finish the quest but with some hint and help from everyone. From my point of view, link 1 managed to complete the whole quest. For link 1 there's no time travel in the future as link 2 do during his quest. That would explain how MM link is more like adult link than child link. Because he did live those 7 years. So how and why does link 2 begin his journey? Link 1 is the hero of time. He saved hyrule. TP does have a certain hero of time who die from unknown cause and teach future future future link a way to succeed where he failed. What if this hero time travel to create a second time line for us to play in order to help the future and make sure that there is a future. By creating this second time-line you have 2 link at the same time but from 2 reality. Link 1 paved the way and on his journey ended up in termina. (That would explain the song of storm paradox as well) So on our journey as a player, we do have help and everything in order to win and become a hero ourself. Your lens of truth theory make sense in this theory too. I think the time travel and multiple link is a thing but from way much longer time than 7 years. Because no hero would create a time-line to help a younger version of himself for nothing. I think that link 1 did create the time-line but waaaay further in his journey because he failed in the future and not to make our journey easier!
Just thought id drop a reminder, the live streams where you, the audience work together, with me in solving a mystery in gaming with the power of science and THONK juice is in developement and the first ones nearly ready!
ALRIGHT. If I understand what you’re saying, is it the following: Guru Guru learned SoS from Child Link One, & Child Link Seven learned SoS from Guru- which is a paradox. An outside source is needed. Fine~ Child Link Zero is what we start out with in OoT. Child Link Seven is what we get for jumping between Adult Link & Child Link. Child Link Seven gets sent back to his childhood, and IF he stopped fucking with time, this would’ve been the second & final link. Child Link One is because after he was sent back to his child, BECAUSE HE DIDNT STOP FUCKING WITH TIME, in fact, changes time constantly in MM & somehow returns to Hyrule with the original source of SoS…he’s the third Child Link… Bc someone had to teach Guru Guru SoS, and it happened within roughly seven years (hence Child Link Zero & Child Link Seven that goes in & out of seven years) & Child Link One could be the only one to teach Guru Guru…right?
You are definitely thinking in the right direction Harleen! This theory is based on quantum mechanics many worlds theorum, where by multiple realities unfurl every passing moment. The links numbers are a placeholder at the end of the day. Logically the player experiences one specific links point of view. Therefore its impossible to perceive that there is information and objects in that current reality that trace back to another. Hence the bootstrap issues. Now the crux of the matter. The first link to ever exist, in the first present reality...beat the sages, sealed ganon, but some how must have completed the shadow temple using his minds eye. Then he'd get sent back warm hyrules king of Ganon etc and the war would begin. Then Link would traverse to termina, learn the SOS and see the lense of truth and realize ...he could travel back using the OOT and place the lense in the well and maybe change things.... Only to realize that's not how it works. He just created more links, more realities and now set up the experience of Ocarina of time for all of us when we pick up the game. This link is pre-determined. All are. The topic is about as complex as schrodinger's cat and quantum mechanics because this is a subject about reality and space-time. This also reminds me of how it's technically possible for a phone from the future to call the past. Great work on working out so much, if you want to study more on the topic of space - time Search up - quantum mechanics many worlds theorum - quantum tunneling - minkowski diagrams (2d movement of spacetime) - planes of simultenaety - what black holes do to light cones Other than that have a big brained Thonky day! Hope this leads to more fun and learning I plan to return to discuss the subject directly at some point! Best wishes, Chris. ~Thinkafurr~
@@Thinkafurr I’m surprised the Ship of Theseus isn’t apart of your line of thinking! I’d argue that as a result of time travel, whoever Link was before he touches the Master Sword is now irrelevant. Molecule by molecule hes the same Link, sure, but he’s also not the same Link, bc he now has knowledge and wisdom he otherwise wouldn’t have as a result of time travel or other alterations made to the future. The ONLY reason there aren’t more than 3 iterations of Child Link, is because of Zelda attempting to rectify the timeline by sending Adult Link back to his childhood. So what could’ve been god knows how many Child Links, all were unified into being just one Link by the end of OoT. So if I’m going by the logic, if you time travel, you’re a different Link, then there’s Child Link Zero, the Link we start the adventure with. There’s Child Link Seven, who jumped in & out of seven years only to be unified in an amended timeline by Princess Zelda, and there’s Child Link One, who continued to time travel in MM, and learned the original Song of Storms. Child Link One taught Guru Guru the Song of Storms. However Link goes about his knowledge of the Song of Storms depends on the stability of the split timelines, you end up with two options. Child Link One ends up teaching Guru Guru SoS & simply goes about his life. This Child Link One saved Termina & Hyrule. Or, after Child Link One taught Guru Guru SoS, Guru Guru passed SoS to Child Link Seven, rendering Child Link One irrelevant. The timeline splits into Twilight Princess after Majoras Mask, and Wind Waker after OoT…Child Link One ends up as Hero’s Shade, as he’s the one who saved Termina & Hyrule (at a point) & he wasn’t recognized properly. Child Link Seven (if he stayed in Hyrule) proceeds to the events of Wind Waker, and Termina isn’t mentioned. And sure, time traveling is complicated and things can overlap. I just answered my own question to why Child Link Seven couldn’t remember his songs when he went to Termina…I thought it was weird he didn’t remember the SoS or more importantly, Epona’s song, since he was with her right before MM happened…Skull Kid happened lol
I can get around the Majora's Mask thing, but I can't get around there being THREE Links, instead of two. Someone else made a theory on there being two heroes of time in the child timeline (not counting the Majora's Mask one) and just like this theory, they both have the same issue. I know you're most likely not going to agree with me, but I'd like to point out a few things. As I stated with the other guy's theory, we never get to see this other Link. Sure, the ending shows us only Link finding and informing Zelda of Ganondorf's plans, BUT we never see a second Link in any of the future games of that timeline as well. That being obviously Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, and Four Swords Adventure. If there were two heroes of time, don't you think it'd be a big deal, and more people would know about it? And if there was indeed a Link who was just starting his adventure while our hero is telling young Zelda of Ganondorf's plans, then this means that that Link's adventure would not play out the same as ours. Since he would have no reason to continue his adventure after Ganondorf is stopped. What I propose if that similar to what happens when Link inserts the master sword back into the pedestal, is that he is being sent back in time to HIS PAST, and HIS PAST only. Which is why we don't see any other Links. As you stated, the future and past both have their own versions of the character. But Link does not have to follow this rule, because he is the one time traveling. Which is why he becomes younger in the past, and older in the future, and why there is no second Link. He IS the Link in that timeline, as well as the Link in the future. Because it is HIS past, and HIS future. It's sort of like this episode of Gravity Falls, where Mabel and Dipper discover a time traveling device. But it's not in the same fashion as most time travel movies with tropes that suggest that if you travel to the past, you will encounter a past version of yourself. Instead, Mabel and Dipper are traveling to THEIR past. And they don't run into any other clones of themselves, because they are turning back time, rather than traveling directly back in time, which is what I suggest happens with Link, in Ocarina of Time. Only this time, while Link is traveling to his past, unlike Gravity Falls, the future he leaves is still operable, and is still functioning while he is running around in the past. Which is why when Zelda sends him back in time to relive his childhood, the adult timeline doesn't cease to exist. It continues to live on, without a hero. Zelda is sending him back in time in the same way that Link uses to travel back in time, when inserting the master sword. She is sending him back to HIS past, not THE past. Meaning there are no secondary Links. This is explains why no matter where Link goes in the past after reinserting the Master Sword, he does not find any other Links. And why Twilight Princess and any game after that mentions no secondary Links. He was not sent back to that kind of past. Since in this game at least, this isn't how time travel works. Other games are debatable. There was always only one hero of time. As stated before I can get around the hero of time from Majora's Mask temporarily traveling back in time and creating the paradox, but I can't get around there being two Links in the same period of time. It just doesn't make any sense, considering what we know about time travel in Ocarina of Time. Especially since it doesn't make sense for Zelda to send him back in time to "relive his past" if he is being put in the past of an already existing Link. Another example is how people often say "I wish I could go back in time." Sometimes when they say this, they mean they wish they can quite literally be younger again, or go back to a moment in time, and do it over, or do things differently. Which is exactly what this Link is doing.
Pretty sure I was following along until about the middle.... and now I think either the whole timeline system is broken or my brain is. So, link gets sent back in time to warn Zelda. He never needs to go on the rest of his quest as a kid. So the child timeline we all accept is where Link warns Zelda, and then goes off to do Majora's mask. Does that make all the things you do in Hyrule (aside from the Deku tree I think) as a kid part of the adult timeline? Ok, yeah maybe that works. So anyway you run off to do Termina stuff, learn the origin of the song of storms, and come back. Turns out you were a little careless with your time jumping, it's accidentally a little earlier than when you left, but without any more timelines because of convenient closed loop travel. (We would hate to think we created a billion timelines where Termina gets eaten by the moon, after all) So you watch young you warn Zelda and leave for Termina. Then you go to teach the music guy the Song of storms, providing an outside origin for the song's existence, no more paradox. Except it can't happen that late, you no longer have any influence on the adult timeline. So it has to be before young you goes to warn Zelda in the first place. So maybe you accidentally jumped back a whole year or something, so you could teach him and maybe that would be enough to establish him knowing it in different timelines, but probably not because why can't parallel presents have parallel but separate pasts? Once the timeline has split, won't closed loop travel just take you to that timeline's past rather than the original timeline?
xD omg how did I miss this. This is insanely high praise, thank you Tyler :3 I hope you're having fun with the botw2 hype, I know I am and im really glad you enjoyed the video too.
I would like to point out that you need the lens of truth to cross the dessert to the sand goddess temple or temple of spirits. So technically link would be out two sages. Also we have to take into count that he would have to do this for the first time. Unlike us, the players who die and learn and can beat the shadow temple by trial and error or do it correctly learn were everything is and then try to do it without, link doesn't get that ability without us being there. So link going in the first time to shadow temple and sand would get helplessly lost with out the eye of truth and probably die in every foreseeable possibility were he doesn't get it. It's more likely that a shiaka made it as they are shown both creating and master magical items and abilities. Also learning the truth is kind of a shiaka thing. Look at the mask of TRUTH and gossip stones to get what I'm getting at. Oh and kakariko is a shiaka village too and has only recently been turned over to hylians in ocarina of time. When you consider all that it's far more likely shiaka then a link. As for the time paradox it's self, I don't think we are meant to know from a lore perspective. From a game mechanic perspective it makes too much sense to be were it is. You can't learn the song till your an adult. It hides the horror of the game till your an adult witch is thematic. While you look like a kid when you go to the well you have seen destroyed castle town prior. The game's theme as a kid is go off on a rather light hearted if sometimes gross adventure. After you become an adult though is when horror is truly introduced. This matches the theme of the adult part of the game and even though you go back your character and you are never the same. You can't unsee the horrors of destroyed castle town. The well is your hint that it's about to get even worse if you continue. That's why you have to complete the other temples to even get a hint as to what is truly in the well. You have to learn the song of storms a song that seems like the sky is crying to open the well. Also the creators just thought it might be fun and that was it. I also have to point out that time travel for major's mask was heavily suggested to be the goddess of times doing. Not so much links and that it also might just be a temina thing too. As for the hero shad peaty sure that he died from battle wounds. Either on the battle field or off of it latter witch was quite common during the dark ages. You could ague that it's not the case but I feel like he wouldn't show up in his battle armor if that was the case.
I like the angle, however it is one I discussed privately. To help, remember that we also mentioned in the video, this link didn't need the Lense of Truth as he trained his minds eye,(remember the old man in blue) then when he found the lense in termina, he returned to hide it away ^__^ setting off a series of events that cause a cascade of other timelines and links to emerge, with the song of storms present.
@@Thinkafurr That's what you said but it makes far more sense if the man in blue talked about the skiaka by the way the man in blue was living in castle town before gannon took over. You might want to look into that. Kind of pokes a big whole in the middle of your theory. Though to be far he never says what race the man was. The blue man also seems to admit that it's just a rumor that he heard as he says 'they say', not that he knew the person personally. Meaning who exactly it was has been lost. Skiaka are technically humans and can be refured to as such. You wouldn't say that shiaka male when refuring to a shiaka. You would probably go with that man or that shiaka man. Don't know where I was going with this particular line of thought but I'm leaving it in anyway. I feel like your theory while creative doesn't hold water when you look at a lot of in game lore even with in ocarina of time. I would also like to point out that zeldas probably would have interesting reactions to the multiple links and would probably comment to them about other links visiting. While she is a child she clearly isn't oblivious. Maybe a tad too trusting, but that's because of her vision of the future. I think your theory would mess up the time line even worse then it already is into some abismal place were the links start second guessing themselves. Also have you seen the monks in breath of the wild they are all but screeming that they are using internal eyes to watch you through the trials. How else would they A know your there, B know when you have completed their trial, and C when to give you the soul fragment thing. The lens of truth even looks like a freaking shiaka eye. Coincidence I think not! It is with out a doubt shiaka made. I think they only included it in majora because they wanted to play around with it a bit more, but I digress. It's a fun theory even if it makes absolutely no sense in almost every angle you look at it from.
Uh I think you ignored me xD...that's fine though. And if you only want to interpret lore one way that's alright too however this is yet another view entirely on the man in blue. That he was another person, like guru who met a link from the past. (Pun intended) Also just putting it here but Link has been known to learn all kinds of secret shiekah techniques. In addition to this, and answering one other part you mentioned, but the Link you play as in OOT is already predetermined. We play after the fact the song was placed in the timelines. This means, as I said already that regardless of Link3's actions that it didnt create anything different regarding him being sent back. It just created new timelines where the song of storms exists and the lense now exists and merely muddled up the timelines further. Why? Because the original three didnt contain either meaning that there is many more timelines than what we see in historia and the the encyclopedia. The implications are horrendously sordid to think about as mapping that is fairly...crazy. xD But nothing actually alters the timelines any further than what you think. All of this has.. Already happened. We just see the timelines after the fact as I said earlier. Ultimately I leave anyone's interpretation of lore to themselves as that's kinda subjective. Glad that this video really pushed you to discuss further! Btw, You seem to be well versed in zelda lore, I'll be streaming and discussing the crazy high, caloric intake needs of certain monsters in zelda 10/10 would love to have you help out in getting certain measurements if you're interested in helping :D
@@Thinkafurr sorry not a math lover. I'm more of a social and behavior interest. I was playing attain it's just...I guess I just don't see how your theory could work as I only see one link in the time line at any one point in time other wise we get into a whole other can of worms when it comes to how two of you in the same time line effect each other and just pain on so many levels. In a way your are making a worse time situation then the paradox you started with.Trust me you don't want to go there. example
@@dranoradragonqueen1494 if it help you. Having multiple links existing changes nothing that we experience not measure, just expands your awareness of other timelines implicated to exist, and if that doesn't quiet help, none of the Links really ever see or directly interact with eachother. They just simply will exist and naturally move on from a to b to c eventually being were the other link was. This opens the realm for me to later discuss free will in another video which is in part, the plan. If you're much more into the realm of exploring conciousness and behaviour you're more than welcome to help with the script on that video? :3
Ok i like this theory as it follow what belived happened except there is only two links the adult and the child. The way I saw it was the use of master sword to travel through time was different from what Zelda did when she sent him back in time. When link pulls the sword his body and soul are trapped for seven years with rauru. When places it back he reverts to his younger self. Now when Zelda sends him back in time she drops him before he ever pulled the sword, which one would think it negates the game but it doesn't however this where thinks third link could make sense, by I digress. My issue has also been is the ending the first meeting of link and Zelda again? Or just him going back to see her as she clearly has orcarina of time as we see her give it to him in the flashback in majoras mask. She speaks of the goddess of time protecting him if he plays the song of time. When he does so in termina it turns back time, the same way Zelda did at the end of Ocarina of time. So that link leaves goes to termina then comes back to the moment he left goes to the windmill and plays the song for the man which drains the well which as think said cause a butterfly affect in the adult timeline draining the well. Why this does not affect the child timeline is because the master sword has power of those events. So link pulls sword adult timeline appears, he puts sword back returns to child timeline. But in that he can take some items back and forth through time so its closed circuit of time travel. When Zelda sends him back she sends him back before he pulled the sword the events of the game already were set in stone the moment link came back with the triforce of courage, as it split like it did when ganondorf tried to grab it. So in a sense it's the new child timeline that was created by Zelda using the powers of the goddess of time by use of the Ocarina to give link his childhood back.
A timeline split, means that: a split. At no point there are more than one link in the same timeline. Even more, Ocarina of Time time travels happens from mind to body; every time links travels to his child body, he does it at a later time, so no Paradox; the last time he travels he does it is to a previous date and he takes a different course of action, creating a split to avoid the paradox (he has no bracelet, so this confirms it´s his body from before he starts de Ocarina events). Majora´s Link is doing his thing in termina, while the war is starting in Hyrule against the Gerudos (there is no Link gathering stones or waking up sages in this timeline). This is really basic stuff, people, get your lore correct (lol).
Its still a loop. Past link cant understand future link because of what i call a quantum information block, which means it already happened and something after cant start something beforehand unless it already happened. The 11th and 12th dimensions deal with information traveling. 11th dimension deals with information traveling forwards while the 12 dimension deals with information traveling backwards. Your still trying the bootstrap paradox which i can answer has a solution and time cant erase itself or have a loop. There are no loops in time travel. You answered it at first but didnt catch what you said, basically he started it is what your saying by going back to the past which already happened. You cant know something beforehand if you didn't know it, and if you did it already happened and cant be stopped. Basically there had to be a link from the past life time traveling (a parallel link from a different life who never met) and he learned the song and played it. Solved! Future cant do something already done. You cant change the past from the future, its what started it in the first place. So its a link in a past who isnt this link, he hast to come from the past and is a totally different link. Theres no loops in time travel, see?
... So you consider there is only one timeline where three iterations of Link exist simultaneously? But if Link 2 warns Zelda before Ganondorf takes Hyrule, how Link 2 will have the playthrough where Ganondorf does take Hyrule? You mixed up the timeloop and the timeline split! When Link pulls the Master Sword, he is placed into a 7 years long sleep, then he wakes up as he grew up. There is no time travel at this point yet. Later, when he puts the Master Sword back, he is sent back into his child body 7 years backwards, but still in the same timeline. So the actions he does in the past as a child already happened in the future when he is an adult, even if he didn't do it yet in his personnal timeline, it already happened in the linear timeline of the world. This part of the time travel is a timeloop. However, in the end of the game, Zelda sends Link back in the past permanently, before any of the events that occurred actually happen, so he can warn past Zelda about Ganondorf and initiate a timeline where he never takes Hyrule ; that's how the timeline split occurs. Though it is unclear how Link ended up in the Temple of Time if he didn't collect the stones and the Ocarina. So in the first timeline, Ganondorf took Hyrule but was defeated, and Link disappeared. In the second timeline, Link did so Ganondorf couldn't take Hyrule in the first place, which leads to a war as we can understand in Twilight Princess.
Idk maybe its just me but that makes zero sense Of course its a theory but a good theory stems from at least a LITTLE bit of evidence so its believable This is just "yeah thats how i think it could be with no evidence and random things thrown in there" like the last part with the heros shade for example
It's fair if you disagree with a theory :) but to say we didnt draw from evidence or even show any is to deviate from reality. There is evidence for most points made but if you wish to state you disagree with what I postulated that's totally okay. :')
Meh, the gender of the kid was never stated. But beside that there was one dressed up as a boy for these 7 years. The Kid could have been Zelda to kick it of.
Wouldn't Number 3 is first one? I don't think need 3 link this 2 wall bo.! If you'r right wooden link make downfall time line by getting mastered sword attrall it like Zelda send them back to his dimension!! So most likely different link from a different dimension that knows the song did it but I don't think go no forever because all dimensions will be the same . Easy way to put this your time traveling you're jumping in dimensions at different time speed . So that why toon world a twilight world and dark world. It's not that hard to think about it my IQ isn't high. I learned all by watching dragon Ball z and all kind of anime the 90's it's the same time travel mechanic I'm smarter with the concert.
:3 that is actually some really high praise thanks Qittikat Studios. Also try not to worry too much about people like that XD I know I don't. If a person couldn't talk about a subject just because someone else did at one point then virtually all schools of thought would have never evolved. People who claim ownership of ideas really just gatekeep for their own selfish reasons but entire communities emerge regardless because Ideas are more powerful than the singular individual. I for one am very grateful you enjoyed my expression or personal take on the Song of storms paradox and thank you dearly for your support. :3 If you want to join the discord community and be part of the more closely knit discussion community here's an invite ^__^ discord.gg/NuFwX8qZ
When Link goes back in time from being an adult, he creates a linear path of time (in chunks) between the point when Link draws the Master Sword for the first time to when he begins his journey to save Hyrule as an adult. He also creates a linear path as an adult (also in chunks), leading up to his final interaction with Zelda. With me so far? The first time Link meets the man in the windmill hut, he doesn't have the Ocarina of Time yet, since as soon as you have the Ocarina you go straight to the Temple of Time with the Spiritual Stones. It's important to notice this difference, because you do in fact teach the man the Song of Storms after being able to time travel. This means that the man does in fact remember Link teaching the song to him 7 years before when we see him as an adult, just not at the point most people think, which tends to be the source of confusion. Child Link teaches the man the song at a point in time AFTER he has been taught the song as an adult and THEN goes back in time. So, this loop makes sense! For those wondering, I think the reason the man is already playing the song by the first time we ever step foot in the windmill hut just for the sake of thematic consistency in the game, not because he already knows the song or its magical properties.
![The TRUE Mastermind! - Zelda Theory [Thinkafurr] - Ocarina of Time (Twin Rova)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qHWOc5kx-H0/mqdefault.jpg)
![The TRUE Mastermind! - Zelda Theory [Thinkafurr] - Ocarina of Time (Twin Rova)](/img/tr.png)
the way you say kakiriko :|
Its heart warming knowing you love it so much. :3 imma pin your heartfelt comment to the top of the comments section to honour your time in complementing the many varied differences we all share.
Such a wholesome hooman ye be. :3
@@Thinkafurr lol im okay with this
So basically...link is a time lord.
He even has bigger on the inside technology what with all those items he has hidden in those pockets of his.
Lulz, time lords
RIP my brain, it was fun knowing you, you will be missed. I don't know what to think about this theory, I want to argue that Link couldn't affect the adult and downfall timelines from the child timeline, but honestly anything can happen in Zelda. I'm gonna think about this tomorrow, I used all my brain power just absorbing this theory lol.
it definitely wasn't easy to write the theory either or do the math. I feel you, take it one page and diagram at a time man XD
Dont forget! Theres a fortnightly/weekly stream coming soon!
wow! this actually makes a lot of sense
Far out what a theory! had to rewatch
I got pretty lost while watching this. 😅
If I understand this correctly, you're saying Majoras Mask Link went back in time to prepare a way for the other Links to beat Ocarina of Time, and you think Majoras Mask Link beat Ocarina of Time without the Lens of Truth or the Song of Time?
Yes... Ridiculousness. It's like adding god to the equation.
My brain hurts
xD
It near broke my brain to write it, without spoiling the actualy science topic as I plan to ...return very soon to tackle that subject....directly XD
Glad this thought experiment pushed your thonk powers to maximum!!! :3
@@Thinkafurr clearly your brain is bigger than mine. Haha
@@aarongrubbmusic xD if that was true id have a massive neck and back ache all the time. Physically its just not feasable having an oversized head my dude. (in more ways than one) :')
Glad you enjoyed the brain tease though :3
@@Thinkafurr haha! True
Another banger theory! Amazing editing too :)
ayy Thanks man!!!
Great video, have not seen a theory like this before! Sadly the "real" answer is probably "the developers thought it would be a fun little thing to include and didn't think twice about it" lol
I feel like I've watched this video 11 times and I still can't wrap my head around it. Paradoxes are heckin hard
XD that's the thing about paradoxical issues. The answer exists but is beyond complete view also part in part what is so good about them too. :3
The downfall timeline was confirmed to exist when Link died to Ganondorf after awakening ALL the sages. The events of the Downfall Timeline had ALL the Sages seal Ganon(who obtained the Full Triforce) into the Sacred Realm which later transformed into the Dark World.
from what Im trying to I guess illustrate is the idea that there are many many more layers of timelines than what you just see illustrated.
I had a lot of time discussing lore and what you posited does come up, what I posed during the tangent is one possible outcome for the downfall timelines occurence,
regarding the sages and the full triforce...theres a rather interesting point to make.
Firstly are all the sages the same people, and with the same level of competance as those in the other timlines. Did one of the sages perhaps not have their powers fully realised?
Was the seal inferior perhaps due to this?
Also big point to ponder:
How could they seal Ganon when he has the full triforce?
..unless......something...fishy is going on with the triforce Ganon has in that timeline.
guru teaches link and told him what happened in the past. link time traveled back and drained the well before the original kid could so he could get the lens. the playthrough is what happens
the flow on effect. Yes. You are living out a path pre-etched in space-time. The video's concept is indeed written that the playthrough is simply another link. Not THE Link.
This Links reality, we experiece however is Pivotal towards the end of the cycle of events.
The First Link to every exist and the others whom served as cogs turning wheels you will likely never see, but you will experience strange and out of place markers of their existance. (inforation or objects with no discernable origin for the reference point of the person encountering them)
WE the player get to see this whole situation from the inside, and if you think laterally you can visualize it from the top down.
Seperate tangental thought process BUT!
The funny part of this is that there would be so many seperate realities.
Also, if the Mastersword's time travel mechanic is anything to go off, we've created a split each time its used.....imagine counting them all, and adding up each time we split the timelines in Majora's Mask as well!!!
Egads!!!
(I may have already averaged the numbers over a live stream btw and it may not already be a thing I have had in the works XD....)
anyway have a big brained, Thonky Day Joseph!
@@Thinkafurr i actually just beat that game for the first time. i was slightly too young to figure it out when my brother had it, when it came out. Nintendo icebergs, especially Zelda, are too cool not to look into,.. and i just thought, whats that song playing in the background of the windmill hut?
On one hand. I feel like this is just mental gymnastics to tie in Link's learning song of storms in MM to Oot. In the other. I really respect that this guy is conscious and explicit when going into tangents.
Don't know why you were in my recommended but I'm glad you were, loved the video and you got a new sub from me :). Keep it up.
:3 thank you Pineapple! xD seems like mornings are the best time to read comments!
I have a lot more content coming and I always aim to make my subscribers proud! I hope to bring my thoughts to the screen soon stay tuned!
I don’t really understand the first link’s purpose, but I see that all the links eventually “grow up” to be link 3
they are just links trapped in a cycle all will reach the point where Link 3 was but Link 3..is a link who existed before any splits and some how did everything without the song of storms initially I hope this allows you to look at this thought experiment with a fresh perspective when you try re-assessing it again.
This actually makes Sense
GOD TIER as always man!!!
MIND BLOWN!!!!!
Lol Nintendo trying to leave when things got awkward
First time watching your videos. Pretty great work and definitely looking forward to more of your work. Subbed!
Ayy!! thanks so much for your support! :3 glad you enjoyed the video ^__^ welcome to the channel XD
There is always content in the works, theres a pokemon and zelda theory already under way so keep your eyes peeled!
This channel makes me feel like I’m watching TH-cam back in 2006
xD I feel...amost called out here. :')
Being a 90s kid 2000's were kinda part of my jam growing up.
Sub to this man! This channel is seriously underrated!
I’ve always wondered this also.
You missed an interesting thing. The Heroes Shade is missing an eye. The Lens of Truth can see what Link used to be able to see. Link plucked out his own eye and put it into the lens!
Genius theory! Well done.
Aww thanks Trey :3 glad you enjoyed it!
So, if we switched links 1 and 2 around, link 2 goes to termina..... Then is it link 3 that came back with the song of storms? I got lost when you included the third link
i choose to believe the Steins gate principle of world lines, I believe at the first point on jumping forward in time this split in to two lines then going back split into another 2 lines and then any more travels would have created alternate realities, also also believe that the only reason the guy in the wind mill cant remember the song of storms is because in his old age hes gone senile , the reason i believe this is before you even learn the song of storms its playing in the windmill
I know I'm late on the scene but the Mojora's Mask origin for the Song of Storms theory has been around for years but but this complicated
the problem it poses has indeed existed for a long time. Personally I've never seen anyone directly address the "cause" nor try to explain that cause.
The origins of the paradox has
fascinated me since I first got a copy of Ocarina of Time as a child and met Guru Guru XD and because its such an important question for me I really wanted to go all out on this video
:3 I hope you enjoyed the thought experiment and walk away with more conclusions of your own to think on this is 100 percent a thought experiment aimed at preparing you to understand a concept much deeper, one
that I haven't directly stated but will be touching upon directly later in the "time travel in Zelda" series.
Its interesting because I had a similar theory about Link in OOT, having 3 Links total, but the reasoning was very different. You know how in DBZ there was the main timeline, the future timeline, and the Cell timeline (where Trunks was killed); this was essentially the same concept.
In OOT there are two methods of time travel, the Master Sword and then later, the Ocarina of Time. Zelda sending Link back basically ensured the existence of 3 timelines.
Link1 is the main Link. He is the Link from OOT who clears the first three dungeons and becomes Adult Link, who would go on to defeat Ganon.
Link3 is also Child Link, but with a time disparity. He is the same as Link1, except he went back via the Song of Time as played by Zelda. This leaves one other version of Link however...
Link2. THIS Link is the same as Link1, he cleared the first 3 dungeons and pulled the Master Sword. But when he did, he never returned. The reason for this is because his return happened later, in a different timeline; the reason why in a different timeline is because Zelda brought him back using her ocarina rather than Link personally using the Master Sword.
So how do any of these Links relate to the Song of Storms though? Well they don't.
The origin of the Song of Storms lies in Termina, and specifically the Ikana Graveyard. The only person who travelled between Termina and Hyrule at that time was Skull Kid. Who's to say that he didn't find a way beneath the Ikana Graveyard? It's possible because Dampe's house connects to the underground grave system. Before he cursed the region using the powers of Majora's Mask, it is entirely possible that Skull Kid learned the Song of Storms from beneath the graves. Not only that, but it is possible that he had possession of a fairy ocarina or at least a flute (like in Twilight Princess) and one of his pranks during OOT's seven year time skip was playing the Song of Storms inside the windmill. This would explain why when Link returns GuruGuru is in the mental headspace that he is in and would also clear up the paradox.
Rather than Link essentially teaching the song to his future self, it was actually the Skull Kid who taught the song he learned in Termina to the GuruGuru of Hyrule.
That was my theory lol
Firstly that's a fantastic way to look at it! Secondly...time travel in DBZ is hilarious xD and the fact you mention it really gives me an urge to want to cover DBZ time travel :')
@@Thinkafurr Haha I am so down for that, not to mention Super as well! I'm subscribing right now, you've got some great content =)
Hey thanks so much Dragan! I'll be putting up more soon! :3
@@Thinkafurr You're welcome, you deserve it!
When Link plays the Song of Storms at MM, the message displayed is "you remembered the song of storms". So no, Link from MM did not do all that stuff you said because he already knew the song prior to entering Termina
Thanks so much for tuning in Thinkers!
For MORE Theories:
SUBSCRIBE to Thinkafurr here - th-cam.com/users/Thinkafurr
SOCIAL MEDIA:
TWITTER - twitter.com/Christafurr1
DISCORD: discord.gg/CNyn8tm
FACEBOOK - facebook.com/1Christafurr1/
My mobile data is so bad that I almost gave up on watching this.
@@Gale_789 you sir are an absolute POGchampion!
@@Thinkafurr Thank you.
@@Thinkafurr HEY listen this was a great theory
Thanks Navi! Glad you enjoyed the video!!
I love the theory!
Heya thanks!! XD I put a lot of work into it, Im very happy you enjoyed the video! will be putting more up soon!
Best wishes
~Thonk~
The link that we see in Majora's mask is older than the one in Ocarina of Time. So if the guy that teaches Link the song storm as an adult said that exactly 7 years ago Link played the song, this doesn't make sense because Majora's Mask happens about 2 years later after Ocarina of time, where Epona is old enough to carry Link on her back.
The only way that I see this possible is if after the events of Majora's mask, Link used the Ocarina to go back in time before those two years that passed between games.
So look. I said link(the first like to ever exist) completes oot,(in a weird and different way) transitions to MM, sets up the paradox after by going back in time to drop the lense and song of storms. Hope that helps. :3
There is one other perspective that could explain it. The 3 cursed by Demise are forced to live together repeating the Tired same old battle over and over. So theoretically, when the Link from OoT gets sealed in the Sacred Realm for 7 years, another was born because by Time's Perspective The third piece no longer exists in that timeline. So Time (or the Courage Triforce or however that is understood) would NEED to choose a New Link to complete the Trinity. He would have been sent back in hopes of closing the loop BUUUUT the Adult timeline still exists even after the the Loop was believed to be closed. So that means the Loop never really was properly closed leaving an odd Link out.
That's actually a fantastic angle!
The influence of the curse of Demise is something I had not considered in the equation although...perhaps Vaati is something to consider too. There is evidence of Vaati's historical encounters through OOT and also MM.
I was so dumb as child and thought that 'weird kid who taught him the song' was a different kid and not link
There is an entire Onions crop worth of layers in Zelda lore, don't feel bad. XD I continually discover things to this day!
What was your favourite mystery from zelda?
Or top 5 if it's too hard to pick?
Goddamn bro. You're good. Love your channel mate
Aw thanks fam! still churning content away! Some great Halloween lineups coming up actually
The link we play at the beginning of oot is already the hero of time. We do manage to finish the quest but with some hint and help from everyone.
From my point of view, link 1 managed to complete the whole quest. For link 1 there's no time travel in the future as link 2 do during his quest. That would explain how MM link is more like adult link than child link. Because he did live those 7 years.
So how and why does link 2 begin his journey? Link 1 is the hero of time. He saved hyrule. TP does have a certain hero of time who die from unknown cause and teach future future future link a way to succeed where he failed. What if this hero time travel to create a second time line for us to play in order to help the future and make sure that there is a future. By creating this second time-line you have 2 link at the same time but from 2 reality. Link 1 paved the way and on his journey ended up in termina. (That would explain the song of storm paradox as well)
So on our journey as a player, we do have help and everything in order to win and become a hero ourself. Your lens of truth theory make sense in this theory too.
I think the time travel and multiple link is a thing but from way much longer time than 7 years. Because no hero would create a time-line to help a younger version of himself for nothing. I think that link 1 did create the time-line but waaaay further in his journey because he failed in the future and not to make our journey easier!
Just thought id drop a reminder, the live streams where you, the audience work together, with me in solving a mystery in gaming with the power of science and THONK juice is in developement and the first ones nearly ready!
ALRIGHT. If I understand what you’re saying, is it the following: Guru Guru learned SoS from Child Link One, & Child Link Seven learned SoS from Guru- which is a paradox. An outside source is needed. Fine~
Child Link Zero is what we start out with in OoT.
Child Link Seven is what we get for jumping between Adult Link & Child Link.
Child Link Seven gets sent back to his childhood, and IF he stopped fucking with time, this would’ve been the second & final link.
Child Link One is because after he was sent back to his child, BECAUSE HE DIDNT STOP FUCKING WITH TIME, in fact, changes time constantly in MM & somehow returns to Hyrule with the original source of SoS…he’s the third Child Link…
Bc someone had to teach Guru Guru SoS, and it happened within roughly seven years (hence Child Link Zero & Child Link Seven that goes in & out of seven years) & Child Link One could be the only one to teach Guru Guru…right?
You are definitely thinking in the right direction Harleen!
This theory is based on quantum mechanics many worlds theorum, where by multiple realities unfurl every passing moment.
The links numbers are a placeholder at the end of the day.
Logically the player experiences one specific links point of view.
Therefore its impossible to perceive that there is information and objects in that current reality that trace back to another.
Hence the bootstrap issues.
Now the crux of the matter.
The first link to ever exist, in the first present reality...beat the sages, sealed ganon, but some how must have completed the shadow temple using his minds eye.
Then he'd get sent back warm hyrules king of Ganon etc and the war would begin.
Then Link would traverse to termina, learn the SOS and see the lense of truth and realize
...he could travel back using the OOT and place the lense in the well and maybe change things....
Only to realize that's not how it works.
He just created more links, more realities and now set up the experience of Ocarina of time for all of us when we pick up the game.
This link is pre-determined.
All are.
The topic is about as complex as schrodinger's cat and quantum mechanics because this is a subject about reality and space-time.
This also reminds me of how it's technically possible for a phone from the future to call the past.
Great work on working out so much, if you want to study more on the topic of space - time
Search up
- quantum mechanics many worlds theorum
- quantum tunneling
- minkowski diagrams (2d movement of spacetime)
- planes of simultenaety
- what black holes do to light cones
Other than that have a big brained Thonky day!
Hope this leads to more fun and learning I plan to return to discuss the subject directly at some point!
Best wishes,
Chris. ~Thinkafurr~
@@Thinkafurr I’m surprised the Ship of Theseus isn’t apart of your line of thinking! I’d argue that as a result of time travel, whoever Link was before he touches the Master Sword is now irrelevant. Molecule by molecule hes the same Link, sure, but he’s also not the same Link, bc he now has knowledge and wisdom he otherwise wouldn’t have as a result of time travel or other alterations made to the future. The ONLY reason there aren’t more than 3 iterations of Child Link, is because of Zelda attempting to rectify the timeline by sending Adult Link back to his childhood. So what could’ve been god knows how many Child Links, all were unified into being just one Link by the end of OoT.
So if I’m going by the logic, if you time travel, you’re a different Link, then there’s Child Link Zero, the Link we start the adventure with. There’s Child Link Seven, who jumped in & out of seven years only to be unified in an amended timeline by Princess Zelda, and there’s Child Link One, who continued to time travel in MM, and learned the original Song of Storms. Child Link One taught Guru Guru the Song of Storms. However Link goes about his knowledge of the Song of Storms depends on the stability of the split timelines, you end up with two options.
Child Link One ends up teaching Guru Guru SoS & simply goes about his life. This Child Link One saved Termina & Hyrule.
Or, after Child Link One taught Guru Guru SoS, Guru Guru passed SoS to Child Link Seven, rendering Child Link One irrelevant.
The timeline splits into Twilight Princess after Majoras Mask, and Wind Waker after OoT…Child Link One ends up as Hero’s Shade, as he’s the one who saved Termina & Hyrule (at a point) & he wasn’t recognized properly.
Child Link Seven (if he stayed in Hyrule) proceeds to the events of Wind Waker, and Termina isn’t mentioned. And sure, time traveling is complicated and things can overlap.
I just answered my own question to why Child Link Seven couldn’t remember his songs when he went to Termina…I thought it was weird he didn’t remember the SoS or more importantly, Epona’s song, since he was with her right before MM happened…Skull Kid happened lol
I can get around the Majora's Mask thing, but I can't get around there being THREE Links, instead of two. Someone else made a theory on there being two heroes of time in the child timeline (not counting the Majora's Mask one) and just like this theory, they both have the same issue.
I know you're most likely not going to agree with me, but I'd like to point out a few things.
As I stated with the other guy's theory, we never get to see this other Link. Sure, the ending shows us only Link finding and informing Zelda of Ganondorf's plans, BUT we never see a second Link in any of the future games of that timeline as well. That being obviously Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, and Four Swords Adventure. If there were two heroes of time, don't you think it'd be a big deal, and more people would know about it? And if there was indeed a Link who was just starting his adventure while our hero is telling young Zelda of Ganondorf's plans, then this means that that Link's adventure would not play out the same as ours. Since he would have no reason to continue his adventure after Ganondorf is stopped.
What I propose if that similar to what happens when Link inserts the master sword back into the pedestal, is that he is being sent back in time to HIS PAST, and HIS PAST only. Which is why we don't see any other Links. As you stated, the future and past both have their own versions of the character. But Link does not have to follow this rule, because he is the one time traveling. Which is why he becomes younger in the past, and older in the future, and why there is no second Link. He IS the Link in that timeline, as well as the Link in the future. Because it is HIS past, and HIS future.
It's sort of like this episode of Gravity Falls, where Mabel and Dipper discover a time traveling device. But it's not in the same fashion as most time travel movies with tropes that suggest that if you travel to the past, you will encounter a past version of yourself. Instead, Mabel and Dipper are traveling to THEIR past. And they don't run into any other clones of themselves, because they are turning back time, rather than traveling directly back in time, which is what I suggest happens with Link, in Ocarina of Time.
Only this time, while Link is traveling to his past, unlike Gravity Falls, the future he leaves is still operable, and is still functioning while he is running around in the past. Which is why when Zelda sends him back in time to relive his childhood, the adult timeline doesn't cease to exist. It continues to live on, without a hero.
Zelda is sending him back in time in the same way that Link uses to travel back in time, when inserting the master sword. She is sending him back to HIS past, not THE past. Meaning there are no secondary Links. This is explains why no matter where Link goes in the past after reinserting the Master Sword, he does not find any other Links. And why Twilight Princess and any game after that mentions no secondary Links. He was not sent back to that kind of past. Since in this game at least, this isn't how time travel works. Other games are debatable.
There was always only one hero of time.
As stated before I can get around the hero of time from Majora's Mask temporarily traveling back in time and creating the paradox, but I can't get around there being two Links in the same period of time. It just doesn't make any sense, considering what we know about time travel in Ocarina of Time. Especially since it doesn't make sense for Zelda to send him back in time to "relive his past" if he is being put in the past of an already existing Link.
Another example is how people often say "I wish I could go back in time."
Sometimes when they say this, they mean they wish they can quite literally be younger again, or go back to a moment in time, and do it over, or do things differently. Which is exactly what this Link is doing.
Not gonna lie, couldn’t get past the marvel endgame shouldn’t time travel conversation, nearly word for word
Pretty sure I was following along until about the middle.... and now I think either the whole timeline system is broken or my brain is.
So, link gets sent back in time to warn Zelda. He never needs to go on the rest of his quest as a kid. So the child timeline we all accept is where Link warns Zelda, and then goes off to do Majora's mask. Does that make all the things you do in Hyrule (aside from the Deku tree I think) as a kid part of the adult timeline? Ok, yeah maybe that works.
So anyway you run off to do Termina stuff, learn the origin of the song of storms, and come back. Turns out you were a little careless with your time jumping, it's accidentally a little earlier than when you left, but without any more timelines because of convenient closed loop travel. (We would hate to think we created a billion timelines where Termina gets eaten by the moon, after all) So you watch young you warn Zelda and leave for Termina. Then you go to teach the music guy the Song of storms, providing an outside origin for the song's existence, no more paradox.
Except it can't happen that late, you no longer have any influence on the adult timeline. So it has to be before young you goes to warn Zelda in the first place. So maybe you accidentally jumped back a whole year or something, so you could teach him and maybe that would be enough to establish him knowing it in different timelines, but probably not because why can't parallel presents have parallel but separate pasts? Once the timeline has split, won't closed loop travel just take you to that timeline's past rather than the original timeline?
xD omg how did I miss this. This is insanely high praise, thank you Tyler :3 I hope you're having fun with the botw2 hype, I know I am and im really glad you enjoyed the video too.
@@Thinkafurr I think this reply is to the wrong comment, lol
@@RobertJW not all heroes wear capes. XD thanks fam. I Must have miss clicked! Wouldnt have know had you not said anything!
I would like to point out that you need the lens of truth to cross the dessert to the sand goddess temple or temple of spirits. So technically link would be out two sages. Also we have to take into count that he would have to do this for the first time. Unlike us, the players who die and learn and can beat the shadow temple by trial and error or do it correctly learn were everything is and then try to do it without, link doesn't get that ability without us being there. So link going in the first time to shadow temple and sand would get helplessly lost with out the eye of truth and probably die in every foreseeable possibility were he doesn't get it. It's more likely that a shiaka made it as they are shown both creating and master magical items and abilities. Also learning the truth is kind of a shiaka thing. Look at the mask of TRUTH and gossip stones to get what I'm getting at. Oh and kakariko is a shiaka village too and has only recently been turned over to hylians in ocarina of time. When you consider all that it's far more likely shiaka then a link.
As for the time paradox it's self, I don't think we are meant to know from a lore perspective. From a game mechanic perspective it makes too much sense to be were it is. You can't learn the song till your an adult. It hides the horror of the game till your an adult witch is thematic. While you look like a kid when you go to the well you have seen destroyed castle town prior. The game's theme as a kid is go off on a rather light hearted if sometimes gross adventure. After you become an adult though is when horror is truly introduced. This matches the theme of the adult part of the game and even though you go back your character and you are never the same. You can't unsee the horrors of destroyed castle town. The well is your hint that it's about to get even worse if you continue. That's why you have to complete the other temples to even get a hint as to what is truly in the well. You have to learn the song of storms a song that seems like the sky is crying to open the well. Also the creators just thought it might be fun and that was it.
I also have to point out that time travel for major's mask was heavily suggested to be the goddess of times doing. Not so much links and that it also might just be a temina thing too.
As for the hero shad peaty sure that he died from battle wounds. Either on the battle field or off of it latter witch was quite common during the dark ages. You could ague that it's not the case but I feel like he wouldn't show up in his battle armor if that was the case.
I like the angle, however it is one I discussed privately.
To help,
remember that we also mentioned in the video, this link didn't need the Lense of Truth as he trained his minds eye,(remember the old man in blue)
then when he found the lense in termina, he returned to hide it away ^__^ setting off a series of events that cause a cascade of other timelines and links to emerge, with the song of storms present.
@@Thinkafurr That's what you said but it makes far more sense if the man in blue talked about the skiaka by the way the man in blue was living in castle town before gannon took over. You might want to look into that. Kind of pokes a big whole in the middle of your theory.
Though to be far he never says what race the man was. The blue man also seems to admit that it's just a rumor that he heard as he says 'they say', not that he knew the person personally. Meaning who exactly it was has been lost.
Skiaka are technically humans and can be refured to as such. You wouldn't say that shiaka male when refuring to a shiaka. You would probably go with that man or that shiaka man. Don't know where I was going with this particular line of thought but I'm leaving it in anyway.
I feel like your theory while creative doesn't hold water when you look at a lot of in game lore even with in ocarina of time.
I would also like to point out that zeldas probably would have interesting reactions to the multiple links and would probably comment to them about other links visiting. While she is a child she clearly isn't oblivious. Maybe a tad too trusting, but that's because of her vision of the future. I think your theory would mess up the time line even worse then it already is into some abismal place were the links start second guessing themselves.
Also have you seen the monks in breath of the wild they are all but screeming that they are using internal eyes to watch you through the trials. How else would they A know your there, B know when you have completed their trial, and C when to give you the soul fragment thing. The lens of truth even looks like a freaking shiaka eye. Coincidence I think not! It is with out a doubt shiaka made. I think they only included it in majora because they wanted to play around with it a bit more, but I digress. It's a fun theory even if it makes absolutely no sense in almost every angle you look at it from.
Uh I think you ignored me xD...that's fine though.
And if you only want to interpret lore one way that's alright too however this is yet another view entirely on the man in blue.
That he was another person, like guru who met a link from the past. (Pun intended)
Also just putting it here but Link has been known to learn all kinds of secret shiekah techniques.
In addition to this, and answering one other part you mentioned, but the Link you play as in OOT is already predetermined.
We play after the fact the song was placed in the timelines.
This means, as I said already that regardless of Link3's actions that it didnt create anything different regarding him being sent back.
It just created new timelines where the song of storms exists and the lense now exists and merely muddled up the timelines further.
Why?
Because the original three didnt contain either meaning that there is many more timelines than what we see in historia and the the encyclopedia.
The implications are horrendously sordid to think about as mapping that is fairly...crazy. xD
But nothing actually alters the timelines any further than what you think.
All of this has..
Already happened. We just see the timelines after the fact as I said earlier.
Ultimately I leave anyone's interpretation of lore to themselves as that's kinda subjective.
Glad that this video really pushed you to discuss further!
Btw,
You seem to be well versed in zelda lore,
I'll be streaming and discussing the crazy high, caloric intake needs of certain monsters in zelda 10/10 would love to have you help out in getting certain measurements if you're interested in helping :D
@@Thinkafurr sorry not a math lover. I'm more of a social and behavior interest. I was playing attain it's just...I guess I just don't see how your theory could work as I only see one link in the time line at any one point in time other wise we get into a whole other can of worms when it comes to how two of you in the same time line effect each other and just pain on so many levels. In a way your are making a worse time situation then the paradox you started with.Trust me you don't want to go there.
example
@@dranoradragonqueen1494 if it help you. Having multiple links existing changes nothing that we experience not measure, just expands your awareness of other timelines implicated to exist,
and if that doesn't quiet help, none of the Links really ever see or directly interact with eachother. They just simply will exist and naturally move on from a to b to c eventually being were the other link was.
This opens the realm for me to later discuss free will in another video which is in part, the plan.
If you're much more into the realm of exploring conciousness and behaviour you're more than welcome to help with the script on that video? :3
Way too many assumptions to be likely to be true... But very cool nonetheless, got me thinking about the paradox in a totally new way.
As long as it got you thinking and questioning my job is done! :3 glad you enjoyed.
Ok i like this theory as it follow what belived happened except there is only two links the adult and the child. The way I saw it was the use of master sword to travel through time was different from what Zelda did when she sent him back in time. When link pulls the sword his body and soul are trapped for seven years with rauru. When places it back he reverts to his younger self. Now when Zelda sends him back in time she drops him before he ever pulled the sword, which one would think it negates the game but it doesn't however this where thinks third link could make sense, by I digress. My issue has also been is the ending the first meeting of link and Zelda again? Or just him going back to see her as she clearly has orcarina of time as we see her give it to him in the flashback in majoras mask. She speaks of the goddess of time protecting him if he plays the song of time. When he does so in termina it turns back time, the same way Zelda did at the end of Ocarina of time. So that link leaves goes to termina then comes back to the moment he left goes to the windmill and plays the song for the man which drains the well which as think said cause a butterfly affect in the adult timeline draining the well. Why this does not affect the child timeline is because the master sword has power of those events. So link pulls sword adult timeline appears, he puts sword back returns to child timeline. But in that he can take some items back and forth through time so its closed circuit of time travel. When Zelda sends him back she sends him back before he pulled the sword the events of the game already were set in stone the moment link came back with the triforce of courage, as it split like it did when ganondorf tried to grab it. So in a sense it's the new child timeline that was created by Zelda using the powers of the goddess of time by use of the Ocarina to give link his childhood back.
A timeline split, means that: a split. At no point there are more than one link in the same timeline. Even more, Ocarina of Time time travels happens from mind to body; every time links travels to his child body, he does it at a later time, so no Paradox; the last time he travels he does it is to a previous date and he takes a different course of action, creating a split to avoid the paradox (he has no bracelet, so this confirms it´s his body from before he starts de Ocarina events).
Majora´s Link is doing his thing in termina, while the war is starting in Hyrule against the Gerudos (there is no Link gathering stones or waking up sages in this timeline).
This is really basic stuff, people, get your lore correct (lol).
Its still a loop. Past link cant understand future link because of what i call a quantum information block, which means it already happened and something after cant start something beforehand unless it already happened.
The 11th and 12th dimensions deal with information traveling. 11th dimension deals with information traveling forwards while the 12 dimension deals with information traveling backwards. Your still trying the bootstrap paradox which i can answer has a solution and time cant erase itself or have a loop.
There are no loops in time travel. You answered it at first but didnt catch what you said, basically he started it is what your saying by going back to the past which already happened. You cant know something beforehand if you didn't know it, and if you did it already happened and cant be stopped.
Basically there had to be a link from the past life time traveling (a parallel link from a different life who never met) and he learned the song and played it. Solved! Future cant do something already done. You cant change the past from the future, its what started it in the first place.
So its a link in a past who isnt this link, he hast to come from the past and is a totally different link. Theres no loops in time travel, see?
... So you consider there is only one timeline where three iterations of Link exist simultaneously? But if Link 2 warns Zelda before Ganondorf takes Hyrule, how Link 2 will have the playthrough where Ganondorf does take Hyrule? You mixed up the timeloop and the timeline split!
When Link pulls the Master Sword, he is placed into a 7 years long sleep, then he wakes up as he grew up. There is no time travel at this point yet. Later, when he puts the Master Sword back, he is sent back into his child body 7 years backwards, but still in the same timeline. So the actions he does in the past as a child already happened in the future when he is an adult, even if he didn't do it yet in his personnal timeline, it already happened in the linear timeline of the world. This part of the time travel is a timeloop.
However, in the end of the game, Zelda sends Link back in the past permanently, before any of the events that occurred actually happen, so he can warn past Zelda about Ganondorf and initiate a timeline where he never takes Hyrule ; that's how the timeline split occurs. Though it is unclear how Link ended up in the Temple of Time if he didn't collect the stones and the Ocarina. So in the first timeline, Ganondorf took Hyrule but was defeated, and Link disappeared. In the second timeline, Link did so Ganondorf couldn't take Hyrule in the first place, which leads to a war as we can understand in Twilight Princess.
I think some of this sounds legit
Idk maybe its just me but that makes zero sense
Of course its a theory but a good theory stems from at least a LITTLE bit of evidence so its believable
This is just "yeah thats how i think it could be with no evidence and random things thrown in there" like the last part with the heros shade for example
It's fair if you disagree with a theory :) but to say we didnt draw from evidence or even show any is to deviate from reality. There is evidence for most points made but if you wish to state you disagree with what I postulated that's totally okay. :')
Meh, the gender of the kid was never stated. But beside that there was one dressed up as a boy for these 7 years.
The Kid could have been Zelda to kick it of.
Wouldn't Number 3 is first one?
I don't think need 3 link this 2 wall bo.! If you'r right wooden link make downfall time line by getting mastered sword attrall it like Zelda send them back to his dimension!! So most likely different link from a different dimension that knows the song did it but I don't think go no forever because all dimensions will be the same . Easy way to put this your time traveling you're jumping in dimensions at different time speed . So that why toon world a twilight world and dark world. It's not that hard to think about it my IQ isn't high. I learned all by watching dragon Ball z and all kind of anime the 90's it's the same time travel mechanic I'm smarter with the concert.
stolen content from other zelda theory tubers. Cringe
:3 that is actually some really high praise thanks Qittikat Studios. Also try not to worry too much about people like that XD I know I don't. If a person couldn't talk about a subject just because someone else did at one point then virtually all schools of thought would have never evolved.
People who claim ownership of ideas really just gatekeep for their own selfish reasons but entire communities emerge regardless because Ideas are more powerful than the singular individual.
I for one am very grateful you enjoyed my expression or personal take on the Song of storms paradox and thank you dearly for your support. :3
If you want to join the discord community and be part of the more closely knit discussion community here's an invite ^__^ discord.gg/NuFwX8qZ
When Link goes back in time from being an adult, he creates a linear path of time (in chunks) between the point when Link draws the Master Sword for the first time to when he begins his journey to save Hyrule as an adult. He also creates a linear path as an adult (also in chunks), leading up to his final interaction with Zelda.
With me so far? The first time Link meets the man in the windmill hut, he doesn't have the Ocarina of Time yet, since as soon as you have the Ocarina you go straight to the Temple of Time with the Spiritual Stones. It's important to notice this difference, because you do in fact teach the man the Song of Storms after being able to time travel. This means that the man does in fact remember Link teaching the song to him 7 years before when we see him as an adult, just not at the point most people think, which tends to be the source of confusion. Child Link teaches the man the song at a point in time AFTER he has been taught the song as an adult and THEN goes back in time.
So, this loop makes sense! For those wondering, I think the reason the man is already playing the song by the first time we ever step foot in the windmill hut just for the sake of thematic consistency in the game, not because he already knows the song or its magical properties.