Jon, did you ever try the variant where you start with fewer cards? If so, did it work as well as you hoped? I wonder if it would also be good to start the game with a few cards face-up next to decks to give a few more options to avoid having to draw blind from the beginning.
I have had my eyes on it, because it looks beautiful, but haven’t been able to sit through a play yet. This synopsis from Jon is going to be a good one for me to look at, I think.
I think Jon and Rahdo need to get memory upgrades! I can't fathom how having 12 cards in hand is information overload. I love having options. But Jon needs to play more if he thinks that means you don't have to draw during the game. You often have everything in hand you need to do what you want, but not to stop others from doing what they want. I love most of Jon's videos but he missed it on this one.
@@rickert566 I've not played Ecos before so I'm just talking theoretically, but with each card seemingly having 2-4 pieces of information (put tree, score points, do that etc) I can see how it can be overwhelming, if not at least daunting / AP-inducing for newer gamers. Also while I can understand how having options & understanding the need for drawing comes with multiple plays, I do agree with Jon that it "feels" weird as someone who's new to the game as well. In fact I worry that those elements combine might scare players away from giving Ecos the repeated playthroughs it needs to understand its deeper levels / design highlights in the first place.
@@alienslysly If you look at the cards it is extremely easy at a glance to see what they do. Would take about 2 seconds per card. Game is straight forward enough that deciding should be a chore. I didn't find it to be in my very first play.
@@rickert566 If you don't mind me asking, around what weight / what other games would you consider the information processing in Ecos to be similar to? Just wanting to get a gauge here, because from Jon's playthrough it seems like a strategy is to just build around certain big game-changing-score cards?
Jason Brown This is so true. All my games, so far, have been teaching at least one person and that can kind of take your attention away from your own play when you’re doing both, especially when there’s more than one that you’re teaching. Really enjoy this game, though.
Wasn't aware of Ecos prior to this, & am intrigued based on your short description so thanks! That said, as mainly a 2p gamer, I can see how having 12 (& 18 for 2p!) cards to start can be overwhelming, & not "needing" to draw when there's a huge deck of variety does seem weird to me as well. That said, I don't think it's that difficult to come up with a variant? Assuming cards from the preset decks work really well with one another, I can imagine a variant where players only start with the 3 starter cards & randomly draw another 3-5 from their "preset" (or X blue Y brown cards?), then shuffling the rest into the draw pile would help make drawing a more integral part of the game? & maybe reduce the VP required to 60 to accommodate for the added time needed for drawing cards? To add more control & options back in maybe even make drawing a "pick 3 choose 2" instead of " 2 choose 1" , so those who prefer options can still easily gain them back?
Oh yeah variants are pretty easy to try in Ecos I think. I just wish it had been designed from the ground up with a different end goal, but I'm sure the designer stands by and is happy with the decisions they made.
I was never able to play the game with other people, so I only have the one very unnatural play that was done for the video. I say unnatural because I controlled everyone, I cheated abit to teach things in a more streamlined manner, and the play took 8 hours total (which is pretty standard for me filming a mid-weight euro). Because of this I don't feel comfortable giving any opinions on the game.
My favorite track in Tapestry is Technology. My least favorite is exploration. Not because I think they are the strongest or weakest, I find them more/less appealing. I have played like 7 times highest score was around 350 and lowest 239. My go to tracks are Tech and Science. But depending on civ or Tapestry cards I also have done Tech and military and done really well. I do not agree with most people saying that you do advance turns until you have no more resources. I think that unless you can put a house that is going to give you more resources you might want to consider doing your income first because you gain resources from that. I usually do income first in the first 2 (gives you 3 extra resources ) and then outlast everyone on the last one.
I agree about the Income. This occurred to me on my last play and I did take income while I had lots of resources because I didn't foresee dropping any new income buildings soon and I wanted the +3 resources for going first among my neighbors.
The Tapestry cards can be fixed if they made 3 different era type cards that when you draw, you draw from the file of era 1 cards and in era 2 from the era 2 pile and so on. They could have made each card specific for an era. That with an additional rule that you can draw 2 cards and pick one would make for a better balance. I still enjoy the game and picking it up at Essen Spiel.
Thanks for the thoughts for Tapestry. Sorry for the wall of text here. It's funny that you mentioned that explore + "conquer" card (it should only gain you the benefit of putting an outpost, but not rolling the dice) because that's my first Tapestry card. Since I was planning to go deep on exploration, the card was very fitting in that situation. I ended up expand all the way to the middle island and got that 10 points. However, the thing is that in this game, if you expand in one line, you can be knocked out through that line without being able to counter (unless Trap card)... That was what exactly happened that game, and the military player earned a lot from that because he didn't need to explore as much to fully benefit his conquer actions. I think being greedy for that 10 points costs me the whole game. BTW, I think this is called Domino Effects or something ;P Anyway, I think the positioning of the game is a light weight civilization game. The moment I finished the game, I said the game is a really good game to be an gateway for new players who is interested in playing heavy games. In this game, there are so many randomness can cost/earn you points, so I think you shouldn't play this game in the mindset of, let's say, TtA or Gaia Project. I think Jamey is smart about that "draw 2 keep 1 thing" because that increases the length of the game. I can see himself setting this game to be the simpler side. We ended up talking about the game for 45 minutes too because you realized you made a lot of mistakes while playing. However, I think this is an information asymmetrical thing, and you know a lot more about the session after you finished. This somehow proves that this game is intended to be quite random, and new players still have a decent chance to win a veteran because of the lucky draws. On the other side, heavy euro games usually put new players in a strong disadvantage, and new players have very minimum winning chance.
I think you and Jon are both thinking about the Militarism Tapestry card, but unfortunately, that cards allows you to "place and outpost" when you explore, not "conquer". You do not get to roll the dice and gain any rewards from placing the outpost, it just gives you control.
@@balbright Yes. That's what I was talking about. I knew it doesn't give me conquer bonus, but it backfired on me so bad in such a laughable degree. I once had 7 lands, and I had 2 at the end of the game XD
I actually think the ending of Tapestry might be a lot worse than you suggest. In most cases I have seen or talked with people about, someone is almost always waiting 15-20 minutes to finish the game. There are a lot of design choices about this game that are curious.
I don’t agree that you have to play the first tapestry card you got. Note that the second space on most tracks get you a tapestry card, and you start the game with 4 resources. Thus, it’s pretty easy to get a second tapestry card in your first round of play. Actually pretty easy to get 2 more Tapestry cards in first round, if you want.
That is true, but it still meant going to a Tapestry draw location or another option for me in the second game and I regretted not going for the known alternate (I believe it was an income building) vs the random draw off the deck which gave me a card no better than my first.
Brandon Surowiec Yes, I’ve heard the same. They are probably doing this after a play or two. Which I find absurd. But, it’s your game to do with as you please. I think it’s rather absurd to think that Jamie was not aware what he was doing. He was quite aware that the cards are imbalanced, and it’s part of the design. Note how in Jon’s examples, he said he drew lousy cards In one game and great cards in another, and ended up in third in both games. Note how there are later spaces on tracks that allow you to trade in Tapestry cards for points.
@@chuckm1961 I believe Jamey actually stated that playtesters wanted Draw 2 discard 1 as a rule but he opted for just Draw 1 to expedite speed of play. I think he values presentation and being able to say the game is 2 hours than balancing the randomness in the game.
@Artr Thormodr i've disliked that when people mention they'd have preferred a civ game as a criticism a bunch of films jump on them about it. It's categorized and marked as a civ game but don't think it has that feel
Jon, did you ever try the variant where you start with fewer cards? If so, did it work as well as you hoped? I wonder if it would also be good to start the game with a few cards face-up next to decks to give a few more options to avoid having to draw blind from the beginning.
I never did, no. I moved that game on from my collection some time ago.
Those are some active hands. 😀 love these videos! So helpful.
Love the tshirt Jon :)
Seems like I am on the only here for Ecos!
I have had my eyes on it, because it looks beautiful, but haven’t been able to sit through a play yet. This synopsis from Jon is going to be a good one for me to look at, I think.
I think Jon and Rahdo need to get memory upgrades! I can't fathom how having 12 cards in hand is information overload. I love having options. But Jon needs to play more if he thinks that means you don't have to draw during the game. You often have everything in hand you need to do what you want, but not to stop others from doing what they want. I love most of Jon's videos but he missed it on this one.
@@rickert566 I've not played Ecos before so I'm just talking theoretically, but with each card seemingly having 2-4 pieces of information (put tree, score points, do that etc) I can see how it can be overwhelming, if not at least daunting / AP-inducing for newer gamers. Also while I can understand how having options & understanding the need for drawing comes with multiple plays, I do agree with Jon that it "feels" weird as someone who's new to the game as well. In fact I worry that those elements combine might scare players away from giving Ecos the repeated playthroughs it needs to understand its deeper levels / design highlights in the first place.
@@alienslysly If you look at the cards it is extremely easy at a glance to see what they do. Would take about 2 seconds per card. Game is straight forward enough that deciding should be a chore. I didn't find it to be in my very first play.
@@rickert566 If you don't mind me asking, around what weight / what other games would you consider the information processing in Ecos to be similar to? Just wanting to get a gauge here, because from Jon's playthrough it seems like a strategy is to just build around certain big game-changing-score cards?
Tapestry is a great time when everyone knows how to play!
Jason Brown This is so true. All my games, so far, have been teaching at least one person and that can kind of take your attention away from your own play when you’re doing both, especially when there’s more than one that you’re teaching. Really enjoy this game, though.
Wasn't aware of Ecos prior to this, & am intrigued based on your short description so thanks!
That said, as mainly a 2p gamer, I can see how having 12 (& 18 for 2p!) cards to start can be overwhelming, & not "needing" to draw when there's a huge deck of variety does seem weird to me as well.
That said, I don't think it's that difficult to come up with a variant? Assuming cards from the preset decks work really well with one another, I can imagine a variant where players only start with the 3 starter cards & randomly draw another 3-5 from their "preset" (or X blue Y brown cards?), then shuffling the rest into the draw pile would help make drawing a more integral part of the game? & maybe reduce the VP required to 60 to accommodate for the added time needed for drawing cards? To add more control & options back in maybe even make drawing a "pick 3 choose 2" instead of " 2 choose 1" , so those who prefer options can still easily gain them back?
Oh yeah variants are pretty easy to try in Ecos I think. I just wish it had been designed from the ground up with a different end goal, but I'm sure the designer stands by and is happy with the decisions they made.
Would have been interested to hear your thoughts on Yedo that you did the run-through for in September.
Me Too, but he maybe Jon only talks about released games.
I was never able to play the game with other people, so I only have the one very unnatural play that was done for the video. I say unnatural because I controlled everyone, I cheated abit to teach things in a more streamlined manner, and the play took 8 hours total (which is pretty standard for me filming a mid-weight euro). Because of this I don't feel comfortable giving any opinions on the game.
Pharaon for me out of the 3.
My favorite track in Tapestry is Technology. My least favorite is exploration. Not because I think they are the strongest or weakest, I find them more/less appealing. I have played like 7 times highest score was around 350 and lowest 239. My go to tracks are Tech and Science. But depending on civ or Tapestry cards I also have done Tech and military and done really well. I do not agree with most people saying that you do advance turns until you have no more resources. I think that unless you can put a house that is going to give you more resources you might want to consider doing your income first because you gain resources from that. I usually do income first in the first 2 (gives you 3 extra resources ) and then outlast everyone on the last one.
I agree about the Income. This occurred to me on my last play and I did take income while I had lots of resources because I didn't foresee dropping any new income buildings soon and I wanted the +3 resources for going first among my neighbors.
The Tapestry cards can be fixed if they made 3 different era type cards that when you draw, you draw from the file of era 1 cards and in era 2 from the era 2 pile and so on. They could have made each card specific for an era. That with an additional rule that you can draw 2 cards and pick one would make for a better balance. I still enjoy the game and picking it up at Essen Spiel.
Thanks for the thoughts for Tapestry. Sorry for the wall of text here.
It's funny that you mentioned that explore + "conquer" card (it should only gain you the benefit of putting an outpost, but not rolling the dice) because that's my first Tapestry card. Since I was planning to go deep on exploration, the card was very fitting in that situation. I ended up expand all the way to the middle island and got that 10 points. However, the thing is that in this game, if you expand in one line, you can be knocked out through that line without being able to counter (unless Trap card)... That was what exactly happened that game, and the military player earned a lot from that because he didn't need to explore as much to fully benefit his conquer actions. I think being greedy for that 10 points costs me the whole game. BTW, I think this is called Domino Effects or something ;P
Anyway, I think the positioning of the game is a light weight civilization game. The moment I finished the game, I said the game is a really good game to be an gateway for new players who is interested in playing heavy games. In this game, there are so many randomness can cost/earn you points, so I think you shouldn't play this game in the mindset of, let's say, TtA or Gaia Project. I think Jamey is smart about that "draw 2 keep 1 thing" because that increases the length of the game. I can see himself setting this game to be the simpler side. We ended up talking about the game for 45 minutes too because you realized you made a lot of mistakes while playing. However, I think this is an information asymmetrical thing, and you know a lot more about the session after you finished. This somehow proves that this game is intended to be quite random, and new players still have a decent chance to win a veteran because of the lucky draws. On the other side, heavy euro games usually put new players in a strong disadvantage, and new players have very minimum winning chance.
I think you and Jon are both thinking about the Militarism Tapestry card, but unfortunately, that cards allows you to "place and outpost" when you explore, not "conquer". You do not get to roll the dice and gain any rewards from placing the outpost, it just gives you control.
@@balbright Yes. That's what I was talking about. I knew it doesn't give me conquer bonus, but it backfired on me so bad in such a laughable degree. I once had 7 lands, and I had 2 at the end of the game XD
Yeah that’s the one,y opponent did play it correctly and didn’t roll the conquer die with it.
I actually think the ending of Tapestry might be a lot worse than you suggest. In most cases I have seen or talked with people about, someone is almost always waiting 15-20 minutes to finish the game. There are a lot of design choices about this game that are curious.
Interesting. I’ve played 4 or 5 games so far and we’ve always been 2, maybe 3 turns out of sync at the end. 3 and 4 player games.
Played 4 Tapestry games and never had more than 5 minutes between the first player finishing and the last.
I don’t agree that you have to play the first tapestry card you got. Note that the second space on most tracks get you a tapestry card, and you start the game with 4 resources. Thus, it’s pretty easy to get a second tapestry card in your first round of play.
Actually pretty easy to get 2 more Tapestry cards in first round, if you want.
That is true, but it still meant going to a Tapestry draw location or another option for me in the second game and I regretted not going for the known alternate (I believe it was an income building) vs the random draw off the deck which gave me a card no better than my first.
@@GettingGames I've heard people have made a house-rule to draw two Tapestry cards: choose one and discard the other.
Brandon Surowiec Yes, I’ve heard the same. They are probably doing this after a play or two. Which I find absurd. But, it’s your game to do with as you please. I think it’s rather absurd to think that Jamie was not aware what he was doing. He was quite aware that the cards are imbalanced, and it’s part of the design. Note how in Jon’s examples, he said he drew lousy cards In one game and great cards in another, and ended up in third in both games. Note how there are later spaces on tracks that allow you to trade in Tapestry cards for points.
@@chuckm1961 I believe Jamey actually stated that playtesters wanted Draw 2 discard 1 as a rule but he opted for just Draw 1 to expedite speed of play. I think he values presentation and being able to say the game is 2 hours than balancing the randomness in the game.
furinkazan88 ... or everyone is overvaluing the importance of tapestry cards and assuming things.
Agree that Tapestry is a derivative, generic game and there are much better of that genre...
@Artr Thormodr i've disliked that when people mention they'd have preferred a civ game as a criticism a bunch of films jump on them about it. It's categorized and marked as a civ game but don't think it has that feel