Congratulations, you are now the owner of a Thorens TT. They last for ever, I have had my TD147 Jubilee since Thorens had their golden jubilee in 1983. The TD147 works perfectly, the suspension "bounces" as it should and it still has the original belt from 36 years ago. The cueing problem is easily solved. The arm lift bar, in front of the arm pivot, can collect dust and crap. Give it a good clean (IPA)and also the underneath of the arm which touches the lift bar. The slow "start-up" can be avoided by keeping the platter turning. With a bit of practice, drop a record onto the platter, cue the arm and when you have finished listening, raise the arm and return the arm to the arm rest. Then using your finger tips, lift the record clear of the platter. The constant start/stop and also speed changing will shorten the life of the drive belt. As usual, your diagnostic skills and great presentation gives enormous pleasure and enjoyment. Kieron.
You are the first person on TH-cam or anywhere online to properly explain and demonstrate the proper way to adjust the TP-11 tone arm. How you showed the movement of the charcoal colored weight to 0 after you adjusted the larger light silver weight to perfectly float the arm is a key step and one that I never knew! The numbers on the weight never matched or made sense until now. They just never matched up for me as I would use a digital scale to get to 1.75 but the number on the weight would read something completely different. Thanks for this!!!
with the comeback of vinyl and cassette..someone like you is necessary to maintain our turntable and cassette deck. there are not a lot of people with your knowledge of retro equipment
Hello! Nice gift! May I suggest you download a Thorens protractor to align perfectly your new Shure cartridge. Another point is to use a small electronic scale to get the exact mass applied on the stylus. The Thorens arms are not known to be exact when using the rotating dial. Another point is to have a look at the start / speed selector and get a drop of silicon grease on surfaces to avoid premature grip and breaking. To do that, you have to return your turntable and unscrew the 4 feet. Before doing that, remember to remove the Platter and counter platter and lock the arm! The small plastic feet can be replaced by better ones or spikes so small budget. The important point I to take care of the lid with has specially fragile hinges and no special breakes, so don't let it close free! A replacement lid is generally sold here in Europe for about 150€, so be cautious with yours. Using fine special polish for plastics and a set of special foam discs is a good idea, but remember to always get it wet, act slowly with mild pressure. You can get a very nice result, as far as the plastic is not cracked or too deeply scratched. Some also say the plinth can be replaced by massive wood specially carved or even stone, we have some specialists to spend many more money to rebuilt these fantastic machines. But most important is to get a good cartridge, and eventually replace the audio wirings that suffer from time and bad RCA plugs. The choice of a good cartridge is important too, and I can tell a lot about compliance, different arms versions, stylus shapes... You can also find information about SME arms replacement solutions, but I don't know if this is so important, as these what perfectly built in the best vinyle years in Germany, following a long Swiss tradition for fine mechanics. The choice is Infinite, and depends first of how much you can or want to spend... We still have fools or genious here in France who build hand made precision machines for more than 30000€! And you have to wait two years to get one! I personally own 4 different Thorens and many Japanese, big and massive direct drive DP Denon style, full auto Pioneers and tangential Sony's, but I always come back to belt driven, suspended counter chassis Thorens, with a good Shure cartridge, or a budget Audio Technica... And these can still be found for reasonable budget, as far as you don't want to play high end with fabulous TD124... Or new extraordinary shaped ones. Don't forget the cartridge/ stylus budget, it's possible to spend a lot for these, and replacement styli are getting scarce or expensive when possible, especially with moving coil type or special diamond shapes (Shiibata, Van den Hull, hyperelliptic are getting super rare). You can spent far more for refilling a DL103 Denon that you could have spent to buy it! And I don't tell about Elac boron mounted high cut stylus... As far as you can get good results with an elliptical or even simpler... Have to try or test things, and I suspect many won't tell a difference from a Grado, Ortofon, Shure or whoever is surviving in the scarce vinyle market. A TD166 or 165 can be found for less than 200€ here in Europe, "dans son jus". A better version or with a more modern auto stop for less than 300€. They are generally provided with a cartridge, but many are out of shape or junk. Many have found these turntables for a few bucks in the past, and their value is now fairly recognized and climbing. The first TD165 I bought (20 years ago) was sold for 30€ in a second hand seller who didn't even know that a belt was needed! And it was supplied with a mint new Shure V15 with an hyperelliptic stylus designed for defunct quadrophony, and supposed to reach 15 to 35000 Hz Bandpass! The sound was fantastic... In terms of audio fidelity, tone respect, quality of harmonics, space image and so on, I join you to judge vinyle a far better support compared to digital, even uncompressed. I know, we have to care for the best cleanliness of our discs and stylus, manage wall supports to eliminate low frequency floor resonances, manage with crackles, pops and sibilance (the s problem), the sound is far more realistic and worthwhile at the end. I've compared with the best DA converter (a true 16 bits ultra high end double selected TDA1541 Marantz), same records simply doesn't sound the same: one sounds real, the other is very near, but... Something is missing, that is lost in the sampling technology, the harmonics in the filtering... Singers voices are specially sensitive to that phenomenon, but some recordings don't simply sound the same! Alas, the quality and the way discs are made is a still a major problem, as you can get very different results for the same recordings depending on where, when and who pressed it. It is also highly perceptible that new releases and repress are now digitally remastered or treated, I should say mistreated. Even if first sound engineers had to deal with minimum budget, they achieved greatest results with simple means. When you were recording live with only a pair of high quality microphones, it's a minimum of 8 in numerous situations. But you don't get better results. Of course you can get the best of the piano in a grand orchestra, but it's not the way you ear it if you're there in the audience. I know recording engineers that do wonders even with digital, using simple means, but also refer to analog 15ips analog tapes as masters, and that's where the best sound is. A few mad Japanese or English publishers still produce full analog discs or magnetic tapes (I mean reel to reel 15 IPS), but they are expensive, exclusive and hard to get! And maybe most buy it and don't get the difference, as it's also a form of investment as good wine bottles. If you don't hear a difference on your MP3 JVC 1000 watt 3D sound system... In French we say "c'est servir de la confiture aux cochons" (feeding pigs with Marmelade)!
I agree 100% with your assessment of vinyl vs. CD. Another factor, I believe, in the younger generation's preference for vinyl is that the only other source with which they are familiar is low bit-rate MP3's. Of course vinyl is going to sound better in that instance. We need to educate the younger generations. I, myself, have digitized my entire music collection (CD's, vinyl, and cassettes) into 320 kbps MP3's for the car, and FLAC for home listening.
I also have a Thorens TD 160, and will have to do a little fine tuning to get it back in shape. Still looks new, though. I loved this thing but haven't heard it in years. Maybe watching all these vids will inspire me to set all my gear up again.
I love it! It's unusual to me. I use Turtle Wax (car Wax) to clean plastic dustcovers. If the scratches aren't too bad. I could be crazy, but I thought years ago, I could hear the music before the needle hit the groove. And the sound you hear without amplification is called "needle talk". You are correct about the mixing and mastering. Vinyl has the advantage of a large piece of album art as the sleeve.
Wow, after reading many comments I can't believe how many people still have their Thorens turntables. Inspires me to dig out my TD 160, tune it up and fined my old LPs.
I like your videos even more now I know you like Chick Corea and Return to Forever! Lots of companies went for the suspended sub-chassis design. Never tried them personally. I've always owned Rega TTs with a solid lightweight plinth.
I take records for what they are, imperfect but can sound great. That's a nice heavy platter, almost no fluctuations in speed, i like that. I also like tape recorders with a heavy flywheel for the same reason. Old fashoned methods that work. The platter and arm both isolated, i know it's not perfect but it helps a lot. Perhaps a later version deck had a start up jocky wheel to quickly put the energy into the platter, then retract to let the belt keep speed. Possibly.
Spend $18-$20 to get a spindle protection rod. It replaces the rear motor screw and keeps the platter from damaging the Pulley and motor spindle. You also should have changed The 4 headshell/cartridge wires, another $20 well spent. Next, Deoxit on the cartridge, wire, headshell connectors also a good move
Nah. I am cheap. Turntable had seen about 10 hours of use since this video. I did order the correct belts as the shop sold me the wrong one. No it wasn't 20 bucks either it was 50.
I was watching another channel and to check the speeds he had a app , I think it was called "RPM" and you just sit the phone on the mat amd it kept its text lined up from his point of view. I think it read the RPM out to two decimal places to the right. Great videos thanks again for another one.
@@12voltvids , if I had strobe I would use it over the app, I trust the strobe alot more then the app. I put it out there for people like me that don't have 1. Thanks for the reply and thanks for the videos !
@@kardeef33317 A strobe disk is easy enough to make. Just print one out, the trick is you need a magnetic ballast fluorescent lamp to actually use it. CFL bulbs these days are all electronic ballast so they won't work. It needs the quick strobe effect of a neon lamp or fluorescent lamp operating on a magnetic ballast to actually strobe.
Capacitors feeding the motor need to be replaced. That slow-up-to-speed is typical of shot capacitors. Motor torque should also improve wit new capacitors. You will find the offending caps in the light grey plastic box nearest the motor ( inside the turntable)
@@12voltvidsthen it has been stuffed from new. My TD 160 was like yours I had the caps replaced and it has much more torque and gets up to speed much quicker. Note mine has an AC motor. I bet you have never thought to check the capacitors.
Make the best of what life has to offer Dave. I have enjoyed music for decades, even playing music in a band. The better the equipment , especially the quality of the speakers, the better the results. I now have tinnitus and need to change the equalization to fit my taste. I still like to get "concert level " when my buddies appreciate it. I had my "pop & click" stolen and wish there is a suitable replacement so I can enjoy my albums in a clean/ clip free volume for personal enjoyment. Thanks for the T-table refresh. Would you prefer a "direct-drive " ? J K
Tinnitus, join the club. Too much shredding with the volume cranked to 11 when I was young. My old pal thought he was going to be the next Jimmy Hyndrix. Between me and him, me whaling on the bass and my buddies ripping the strings off his telecaster, and beating the crap out of the drums. I am surprised I can hear anything. Too many concerts when I was young too. The worst one ever was seeing the stones at the King dome in Seattle in 1980 i think. Had an "obstructed view" seat. Today they wouldn't be permitted to sell these seats, but there was a speaker column directly next to us blocking our view of the stage. Only saw the back of their heads occasionally. Left there, and drove 3 hours to get home. Ears still ringing the next morning. Come to think of it I don't think that ringing ever stopped. That was the night that me hearing was damaged more than any other time. As you know some days are worse than others.
Hello, i have the same Thorens, but TD160, then i would like to know where can i buy the same components that you've changed on this recordplayer. thx a lot
@@rimmersbryggeri It's a long time ago Thorens was sold to Germans, its headquarter is now in Bergisch Gladbach, Germany. You can read it on its official page www.thorens.com/en/imprint.html .
Fantastic turntable. Mine is over 30 years old & works like a dream (serviced regularly). However why do people say ‘needle’ ? it’s a stylus. A needle you sow with or a very old cylinder player.
What you forget in your argumentation is that sometimes it doesn't all matter if the technology behind the playback source is "better". It may be better on paper (higher resolution on digital format) but this is not necessarily the main factor in the listening situation. Since we not only listen music technically but also emotionally.
Ya da ya da ya da. Ok you like putting the record on and dropping the needle. Good for you. I am just tired of people claiming that vinyl and cassette tapes sound better and try to convince people of this. I really get a kick out of those that spend huge dollars on speciality turn tables and cartridges hoping to improve the sound of vinyl. The problem with vinyl and tape is this. Every time it is played back the sound changes slightly. When that needle is being dragged through the groove the tip of the needle being bashed back and forth gets very hot. Guess what that hot tip does to the wall of the groove? It makes it soft for a split second and in this time the groove makes a microscopic change which the next time it is played will slightly change the sound. One of the reasons that jvc worked on developing super vinyl that was used by mobile felidity sound labs was because it was more resistant to this. Super vinyl was developed for cd4 (quad) records because the high frequency carrier where the rear channels were recorded was very susceptible to this. Many modern pressings these days are done with with this 170 gram super vinyl but none of the old vintage records except the very expensive ones by mobile fedility back in the early 80s and 4 channel records. Everything else was cheap vinyl and a huge percentage of that recycled vinyl. Record stores would send back unsold records. They were melted down to make new vinyl to make more records. This recycled vinyl was not as good as virgin vinyl. This doesn't happen with digital. Digital is the same every time you play it. A proper mastered cd will blow away any vinyl or tape copy. The problem is many pop and rock cds of the 80s were not properly mastered. The analog source tape was equalized for the limitations of vinyl (de "s" and bass rolled to center channel for example.) A complete remix was required to make a cd shine and most record companies were not prepared to do this. This was not an issue in the jazz or classical labels. They did this from day 1 and their cds sound absolutely fantastic. Far better than any vinyl pressing of same.
@@12voltvids Ok, but nobodys hears a microscopic change that seems to let the record sound "different" from every spin. Same you could say bout cds that they can have dropouts when 20 or 30 years old. Or they even don't play any more. Scratched cds have dropouts, the player can't read them etc.... I don't know if you can compare what you try to compare. Which players are used, which amplifier, which speakers, which cables, which cartridge, which room, which ears, which mood is the listener in, which music etc...? You can try to measure it in the laboratory but that's about it.
@@kpt.beyond819 Actually you do hear the changes over time. Compare a heavily played record vs a new one and you will hear it. CD doesn't change. CD doesnt wear out. Minor surface scratches dont affect CD as there in redundant error correction data built in to correct errors. If you damage the reflective surface then yes the disk could skip or not play at all. Cdr can be damaged by leaving exposed to sunlight. I have cdr recorded back in the late 80s when I got my first very expensive burner that still play. The original cdr were gold with dark green recording layer. Disks had to go into a cady to be recorded. Was a Sony burner that was about 1000. Blank disks were also bloody expensive. About 20.00 each. I used them to backup photos in the early days and made a few compilation cds. The disks have lasted though. The later higher speed silver CD have not lasted. I have over 100 unrecorded gold cdr that have never been opened to be used slowly for special projects.
@@12voltvids You can't say heavily played records sound generally bad. Some do but also I have 70s records from my dad which sound really great. I lately played a totally worn out Billy Idol record again which as a kid I played wet because back then it was worn out already. The sound was great. I have the same album on CD but it's way better on vinyl. On CD the bass is wobbly and the highs sound artifical. Whereas I own a Foo Fighters album both vinyl and CD and CD sounds much better. Surely because what you say about mixing and mastering. This album was done for CD and not for vinyl. I just wanna say the process of producing and listening back music is too complicated and too different to determine "the better medium". And redundant error correction fills in data which affects the sound if I remember correctly?
@@kpt.beyond819 Early CD production was done from the analog master tapes that were already EQ for the vinyl cut, and the record companies were too cheap to pay the engineer to make a second master without the processing needed to make the cassette and vinyl sound as good as those formats could. I mostly listened to jazz recordings during the 80 and 90s because 80s pop music of that era just gave me a headache. When I hear crap like culture club, ah ha, duran duran, men without hats ect come on the radio I can't find the tuning dial fast enough.
Nice to hear an objective viewpoint on sound quality, as opposed to the subjective "X is better than Y" or "Y pisses all over Z" rubbish. End of the day, everyone has a different sound that "does it" for them & they can't say it's better or worse than the next guy's... Truly the quality isn't what matters, it's the enjoyment. :) Not sure I like that Thorens TT myself, belt drive I'm coming around to as OK but that anti-skate just looks excessively complex and fragile. Nice looking piece though.
It depends on how they are mastered and mixed. I had CD's that sounds better than vinyl, and vice versa. There is no absolute. If they took the time to care , all CD'S would sound better than vinyl.
So I thought I would try this on my TD-166MKII , wrongly assuming that the only real difference between it and the TD-165 was the tonearm. However, the 166MkII has a forked protrusion coming up from the plinth that hooks over a plastic ring attached to the subplatter underneath it. This piece looks like it is intended to prevent removing the subplatter from the bearing shaft, a task at which it succeeds quite well. Any idea how I might be able to remove the subplatter without major surgery on my 'table? Thanks!
Record, old tech, clicks, pops, center panned bass, rumble, feedback, low dynamic range. CD high dynamic range, no hiss, no pops no wow and flutter, longer recording time. I will take a CD any day of the week over vinyl. About the only thing vinyl has going for it is watching the record turn while listening to it.
@@12voltvids And the album art, liners and feel. I know CDs have the little book, but it just isn't the same. Just something about the feel of a record. Not so much the music reproduction as it is the nostalgia for me I think...
Yup. The dynamic range possible by digital blows vinyl out of the water. Also, a completely silent background is important and vinyl can never achieve that. Having said that, I still love spinning records.
Nice free deck! I wonder if the TD 165 & TD 160 used different motors. My TD 160 takes a second or two to get up to speed, but more like half the time of this one.
I don't have a huge jazz collection on vinyl. Perhaps 50 albums. I do have a massive jazz Cd collection on the other hand. Probably closer to 600 CDs and even more on the computer. Back when Emusic was first starting they offered unlimited download for 10 bucks a month, and I just went crazy, and downloaded everything in site. Listened to it later, and got some real gems. Then they went commercial and started charging by the track, so I became very selective. They went to I think it was 20 tracks a month, and then they pissed me off, because I hadn't downloaded any during a month I was on holidays, and when I went to download they said sorry you have used your download for the month, because they went on a 28 day cycle, and kept changing the cut off date. So I quit them, and resorted to recording off the music service my cable co provides. Still they play great tunes and I am always expanding my ever growing library.
Are you Shure that cartridge is a good fit for that Thorens? ;-) BTW, does this turntable lift the tonearm up once the needle gets to the leadout groove?
You are right about the possibility of a CD, but in the real live they used the CD to compress the music more and limit it up to 0,00 db. The loudness war, you maybe heard about. Also the digital remastering destroyed the sound specially of Jazz. So in the real world the vinyl sounds better than a CD, even it would be possible to make the CD sound much better. I am a professional musician all my live, worked in studios, mixed and mastered myself, did the whole thing. In my opinion vinyl sounds better, no contest even with newer music. Mr Fremer says it the loudest and I agree.
Let's say we agree to disagree. When cd was made using analog master that was equally for cassette or vinyl distro then yes they compressed the crap out of it. I have heard remix (not remastered as that just uses an analog mix) where they totally remix the Mukti track session tape cd sounds fantastic. I have both vinyl and remixed and the remixed sounds better and I too have spent time in studio.
Anyone who did not live at the time that records were mainstream will never understand the true impact of just how big the CD was a revolution in music reproduction. I was born in 1978 so I saw the tail end of the vinyl era. Vinyl was cool in its own right, but when CD came out, I mean, wow! Just wow! They put the highest quality recordings on it to show off its superior playback, and we were blown away! Music today is crap! Pure and simple! No dynamic depth, no richness, and no complexity. It doesn't show off what digital can do at all. That's why you can put it on iron oxide cassette and not notice a difference. If anything, it might even improve the sound. The old folks back in my day used to say that music sounded like noise. To me, modern music sounds weird, but it is definitely crap. There is no drive to get it right. Just slap in on, send it off, and make that quick buck. GARBAGE! At times, they all sound like they were played from the same album, and what's with this subsonic music synthesiser crap that you can only hear through woofers?! Other than maybe drums, that's your only bass. Music in the eighties filled in the entire listening spectrum with music. They didn't cram it together with volume compression and clip the crap out of it. They would have smacked you upside the head for even saying something that stupid. All that time and effort put in to making quality music just to clip and compress it? Hell no! Sure, that is often why records and tapes sound better, but only because they didn't do that back then. Records pressed today are likely going to be clipped and compressed because it is practically a requirement now in the music industry. They think this loudness war needs to be won. No, it doesn't. It needs to be put to an end.
Actually.no... Many who use vinyl LPs that was the consumer audio media available (except for tape ) treated LPs like yesterday's newspaper .Then they had real noisy LPs This was not a problem with CD even if their audio quality was not as god as LPs in a high end system So those people loved CDs. Real audiophile of that era knew different and could her the defects of CDs Having sad that, a really good CD is better that a badly pressed LP any day. There are badly made CDS just as there were baldly made LPs So, it's no so much a media, but how a given media is used to get the best quality
Hi, I have pretty much the same turntable, great condition, well I mean, comparable to yours. Now, the belt is getting loose and so I've decided to put on a new one. I didn't order a Thorens-branded one, but I got one from a store that is meant to do the job just as well and for half the price. Anyway, when I set it up, it would play 33T perfectly (well I can't check for sure, what is that thing you're using to measure the speed of the turntable, looked kinda crazy!). But whenever I switched to 45T, then the belt would make its way to the top of that white revolving thing but wouldn't stay on it, or wouldn't stay at the top, it would settle somewhere in between. Any advice? I first it had to do with the belt being to wide and, going through that metal arm/lever, its trajectory would be altered but it turns out it the same width as the original I used before. So I'm tempted/considering to see if I can work it out on the spring of the leverage (don't know if I'm being clear here), I mean that metal arm that switches the high/low position...
I just dug out my TD160, which looks the same as the 165. It doesn't have a needle. Should I replace both the cartridge and the needle? If so, what manufacture/part should I be looking for to replace them?
Don't think so. I was given another one about 2 or 3 years ago that I did a cartridge swap on. I sold that one for big bucks to a guy that had sucker tattoed on his forehead. Actually had 2 guys interested in it and they started bussing each other up till one guy ran out of 20s and the other guy had one more.
There are 2 types of 2nd hand vinyls. Totally knackered or Mint. Some of them must have been bought played once and put into storage then there are the ones thast are mint exept one track that is unplayable.
I have a few from my youth that are like that. They are Beatle albums, and the hits, well they sound like crap, and then there are tracks like "Revolution 9" which plays perfect. One that is totally worn, to the point that it won't play very good is "I want You" off Abbey Road. Dam I played that song so many times when I was a kid, just listing to George play that solo, and try to play it myself. Wore that one out completely. IMHO that was one of the best tracks the Beatles ever did from a musical perspective. That musical interlude was fantastic.
Too, you might like a Gentleman Guitarist "Gabor Szabo" long dead now. I think he was from one of the Soviet satellites way back in the day. He did some very cool things. Anyway, jus sayin"
@@12voltvids The fusion seemed I don't know...a little too chaotic for me I guess. I mean, I gave some of it a shot Larry Coryell (SP), Billy Cobham, John McLaughlin and Chick too. Maybe-No...I just wasn't feeling it. You know who I always liked very much and still do was John Klemmer. I got all his stuff. Jean Luc Pontes' Enigmatic Ocean was another favorite. Today and of late it's actually been Chet Baker. Have you took a gander at The Squirrel Nut Zippers yet? You must youtube them and look for those old cartoons as part of their presentation. I could go on and on and on...enjoy your day my friend. Oh and how come everybody is always "giving you" these things you work on?!!! You lucky bugger!
@@chris7662 I have clients that bring me their stuff to work on, and others that just want their old gear gone, and rather than bin it give it to me. Garage sale time coming soon so I will be unloading some of the stuff I have, as I have too much now.
Tracking too light causes *increased* record wear as the needle kind of slaloms back and forth from one side of the groove to the other. It also causes more Distortion, yes.
@@12voltvids What's funny, me watching , is I know absolutely nothing about electronics and I hate myself for it! Lol. I'd love to have those kinds of skills which you possess especially since my local tech is getting up in age and may not be there when we need him in the future. He, is opposite you for he loves the old vintage equipment and does computer work as well. Sadly, there is nobody else close by doing this kind of work. It sucks.
@@chris7662 I like vintage equipment too. I have a collection of old tube radios going back close to 100 years now. I do like the newer digital stuff though. Not from a service point though.
Mine was a TD 160 a cut-above, I think, the TD 165.. 0 plastic. I had to give it away; it still hurts. These things are bare-bones-beauties, but they do go thru belts like crazy, get a 10-pack - I replaced the cartridge as some little brat probably'd heard from his dad they were diamonds (LOL); we'd left him in the music room while partaking of adult party favors and when they were long gone, I went to play a record ... -those bastards never mentioned a thing! Anyways, something dreadful happened last year and I had to give it to a very sad person. Hell, his best friend had given it to me. Anyhoo, that's my Thorens The Mighty Epic proem. lucky u.
This one is ok. I probably won't even use it as I don't have a huge vinyl collection. I need to get a preamp to plug it into my tube amp. I prefer the sound and convienece of my 200 disk CD changer
@@12voltvids I just have a decent computer set-up for sound, some Altec Lansing like 2.5"? barrels, powered by wallwart and a decent Kenwood 10" sub-its surround foam is gone and I gaff taped it up lol.. still sounds okay on a lot of things. And youtube.. and whatever shareware tunes I could dig-up on the harddrive. CD's are kinda dinosaurs too now -tho I do have a 58 Maggie to fix still. 2-piece console... I think I wrote about that to u before. You said you're much more into accuracy than "warmth" or whatever.. and efficiency, reliability.. I'm into whatever works at the time that I ain't gotta fix. I'd buy that Thorens off of u for $100 any day.. :D or, ya know, what do u think for it?
@@_Ramen-Vac_ I could get a lot more than 100 for it. Local vintage stereo shop has one in the store for 575 on sale. I like warmth to the sound, I run all tube amp into a pair of Technics SB7000 speakers. I just don't like all the racket that vinyl gives. Pops, clicks, and all the noise associated with the needle in the groove, plus limitations. I enjoy the wide dynamics that digital recording brings, along with the smoothness of an all tube amp. I have several tube amps. Both SE and push pull.
@@richardhudson3014 I have over 1000 cds been colecting since 2003. I am embarrassed about the first CD I bought. Would not catch me listening to that now.
I have a Thorens TD160 Mk I and one of the channels stops working intermittently. The amplifier/speakers is not the problem, so it must be something from the turntable. What can I do to fix it?
@ it's either the wires or an intermittent cartridge. Now from personal experience the td165 you see here I found at the side of the road and when I got it one channel was dead and the note on it said wires broken in tonearm. Measure them with my meter from the head shell to the end of The wire and it had continuity put a new cartridge on problem solved it was an open coil in the cartridge. Previous owner had taken it to a shop shop measured continuity from the RCA plugs on one side open told them it was going to be tonearm wires and that it was going to cost $200 to fix owner put it at the side of the road on garbage day. I picked this up probably a dozen years ago let it sit in my storage unit for a couple years before getting to it because I was fully expecting to have to replace the head shell wires after all it was the shop that I used to work at that diagnosed it, the tech they hired to replace me when I left diagnosed it as the tonearm wires and the customer did not fix. Now in my case it was not intermittent it was completely out on one channel but it is possible that a cartridge could go intermittent just as easily as the wires so if you have a spare cartridge it might be a good idea just to swap the cartridge first and see if the problem goes away if it continues then yeah probably the wires are bad right at the end of the tone arm where they flex back and forth as the arm moves across the record
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@@12voltvids Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I have rewired everything and now seems to be working properly. I still need to get rid of some hum, which I don't know how to fix. I am waiting for some cables and plugs to arrive and replace them, I hope that will fix the hum.
A CD-format was created as a replacement of a Compact Cassette, not a vinyl record. And its sounds not as good as a CC in some circumstances. CD is more comfortable for persons who don't care about a sound quality. First and foremost unnaturalness of CD sound (and other low-res digital recordings) is a big increase of non-hamonic distortion with decreasing of sound levels. While all analog devices including man's ears gives an increase of distortions (harmonic in this case) with increasing of sound levels. One of the world's greatest mastering engineers Mr Bob Ludwig lives not far from you, so you cas ask him about all that matters;). The place you've bought a belt is really expensive: I've bought a belt for my TD125 from Switzerland for 17 euro including very expensive shipping from Switzerland to Russia.
Alex K, where did you get that BS? It's NOT true. Cassette remained in use to about 2000 or so when it finally fell out of favor. LP's were being dumped as early as the mid 80's, once CD players and CD's came on the scene and began dropping in price as people migrated to the CD format.
@@johnhpalmer6098 Yep CDs were for the home system early on, car CD players didn't really become affordable and common place until well into the 1990s. It took awhile to figure out how to keep them from skipping with every bump.
@@turnersparadise8368 That's true but I seem to recall there were a few aftermarket CD head units in the mid to late 80's? I could be wrong, though this being the US. I have a nephew that once had a van, a Dodge I think that had an early CD player in it. Portable CD players were out by the mid 80's and many of us used them in our cars through the cassette adapters and they did quite well. It took until the early Aughts before CD head units started to be offered by the manufacturers enmass, but some higher priced vehicles had them on offer by the late 90's if I recall. However, the venerable cassette was still being offered by dealers until what, 2004-2006 time period before being phased out all together.
No one but an audio fool says that vinyl is better based on accuracy of recording or reproduction. The argument persists because of the purely subjective listening experience. Which, on average, is better with vinyl. I liken the comparison to the differences between an electric and an acoustic guitar. With the acoustic, every little detail influences the sound quality/tone. Depending on the type of music, volume, etc., an electric guitar's signal path is much more important. You summed it up at the end. You said you were going to put that turntable in front of a tube amp. Every stage of that signal chain is microphonic, adding natural harmonics and warmth to all but the worst recordings. In the digital world, great pains have to be taken to capture those harmonics and warmth at recording, or it will never be. If you doubt this opinion and have a spectrum analyzer, it is easy to see evidence. Not arguing with you, just my perspective. Love the vids and the education that you provide. Thanks.
I think you have the worst dj turntable. I have seen a DJ table on here once, it has a giant motor and rim dive and gets to full speed in under a second.
@@markanderson350 It is not a DJ table. No belt drive table is much good for a DJ. They use things like a Russco Cue Master, or a Technics SL-M1 direct drive. We used Russco in the TV station I worked in for record cues. They start up pretty much instantly. Something like 1/8 of a turn to full speed.
There is a vintage audio service shop out here that has some nice expensive vintage gear in it. I won't mention the store name here. He bought up much of the stock from Main electronics when they closed, but wont sell any parts, just turntable belts and cartridges / needles.
Some new remastered CD sounds like crap because of loudness war that they squashed the dynamic range to the point that it's like you are listening to a radio. That could also be the reason some old vinyl sounds better.
The cds I have heard sound superior to vinyl. Of course a good CD player helps too. Many use a cheap player or a DVD player which dont have the best circuits in them. It also depends on the engineer that mixed. The music I listen to has all been properly mixed. The artists are professional jazz musicians with golden ears striving to produce the most sonically perfect recording they can and it shows. Especially live recordings. I listen to all types of music but for the modern hard rock I usually just listen to the radio, FM and HD.
@@12voltvids My CD player is a Sony CDP-S37. Our DVD player sounds slightly better but playing at a very high volume I can hear some slight hiss in-between songs while I don't hear any hiss on my CD player.
CDs were ruined years ago by "the loudness wars". Digital crap is exactly the same. I am not a fan of digital anything, I like to own things I buy. Digital music, digital games, digital movies and tv shows. No thanks. The companies love it, because we do not get to own so many things now that there are fewer DVDs and BDs. I do not like the shit they call music today anyway, so it is always going to be old music I am buying. So buying a mint/near mint first press record will always be better than digital. Why? Because the master tape was perfect at the time, 30, 40 years after a release tye tapes are worn and stretched. IF they are even using the original master. I limit the new pressings I buy because most sound like crap compared to an original. Rare exceptions like the mono Beatles records which were AAA direct from the master tapes, sound incredible thanks to the tapes being in pristine condition. With the exception of the glue issue on PPM. By comparison, Abbey Road 2012 sounds like complete garbage because it was made from digital files. Prince's 80's output is another that had care put into the reissues and sound great. I wish I could list more but unless it is a release done with care and most importantly, AAA from the masters, I will stick to an original. Also if you think records have to always be all noisy and scratchy, you must not own any Japanese pressings. A mint Japanese record with a good cart sounds like a CD, no background noise. I am still amazed at how QUIET some of my Jp records are! My 37 year old Japanese red wax Beatles mono collection sounds whisper quiet compared to the scratch covered 2014 pressings. They are fairly quiet, but are so marked up from the bad handling of the discs, they have pops and clicks that a new record just should not have. The Jp records I own have zero noise. As for needles not getting the information from the grooves, you said it yourself. Technology moved on and modern carts extract incredible amounts of detail from a record if it is there. Put a Audio Technica VM740ML or Ortofon Black on that Thorens and you will hear those records like never before. I am not saying all this to argue your opinion, I am simply stating my own. I started buying records at 3 in 1980, I love them and am glad I got back into buying them 10 years or so ago. It does not replace CDs for me, but I gladly listen to an 80's record over a "remastered" CD. They are compressed to hell and have all the dynamics removed by the loudness crap. It seems it is never going to change no matter how many people complain.
The biggest problem for CDs in the 80's of pop and rock music is they were made from the same compressed (loudness wars) shitty master tape headed for the laquor cutter of the day. Many CD re-masters were made from 2nd or 3rd generation tapes. Why, because the master tapes had deteriorated so bad they could not be recovered. I have a good cartridge on my thorens now, and the proper belt that cost 35.00 and it is relatively quiet, however it still does not hold a candle to, and no vintl release ever will, to a modern recording of quality music. I am not talking head banger rock, or crap, and any of that pop crap. I am talking good acoustic music. I listen to the jazz and blues masters. Both electric and acoustic performances. Go take a listen to Pat Metheney "the way up" on bluray, and you will hear some fantastic "digital" sounds. While listening you can also watch him perform. The recorded the entire album, a long form piece (over 60 minutes straight without a break) in Korea before a live audience, and it is an absolute masterpiece, both musicianship wise and technically. A good digital recording will blow the doors off anything cut into a laquor disk and pressed into vinyl. I do have many japanese pressings, including many done by Mobile Fedility Sound Labs, and these vinyl disks do indeed sound better, but still a good digital recording sounds better. Of coiurse if you are comparing a CD to a vinyl on something that was recorded in the limitation of analog, then the CD is not going to sound any better, and likely will not sound as good, which is why some people claim that vinyl sounds better, the CD is resolving the limitation of the recording technology used. Garbage in, garbage out. If you start with a full digital recording done in the studio or theater (for live performances) recorded properly then there is no comparison between vinyl and digital. You need a good CD player as well. A 20.00 play everything DVD player probably isn't going to do it justice, but a cd played on a good cd player, such as a Sony CDP X555ES as I have will sound better than any vinyl could ever sound. This is not just my opinion, it is backed by science. Why do you think they had to apply the RIAA equalization curve to vinyl? Any time you have to pre-emphasize and then de-emphasize anything you are not getting back what went in. It is impossible. With digital, you sample the original waveform with enough sample points to reconstruct exactly what the original signal was. 44.1 is good enough to resolve to 20KHz 196KHz is far, far better and that is what is used by recording studios these days. Put that to a super audio CD or a DVD and you are getting the absolute best sound you can get.
@@12voltvids No doubt modern recordings will sound better in blu-spec audio, but I am mainly referring to original 60's-80's music. It has all been ruined by what idiot record companies did to CDs with the loudness and compression. Not to mention compressed digital garbage on itunes and what have you. I love CDs as well. I got my first CD player for Christmas 1988 when I was 12. It was the most excitting thing for me since I was surprised with a stereo for my 7th birthday. I stopped buying records in 1989 because the CDs sounded better, my stereo I got along with the CD player was one of those all in one things with the twin tape decks. The turntable was pretty terrible. Also by 1988/1989, records in this country were garbage. The record companies dropped records extremely quickly here. In 1988 and early 1989, you still had Virgin Megastores full of records. By 1990, it was hard to find records anywhere. I think they really lowered the quality to make people stop buying them. I do think now, that playing a late eighties/early 90's CD vs record now, the record would win most times. But it is as you said, the masters were not made for CD exclusively. Much in the same way a laserdisc made from a proper LD master will look amazing on a high end player, vs a disc that was made from a VHS master. Same thing happened with DVDs. The early LD dumps were horrible, once proper component DVD masters were used it was another story. So in the case of blu-spec, I conceded that a modern recording made for that format will always be better. For the reasons I mentioned before, older music will always sound better on record to me. Unless they fix CD mastering, which I doubt will happen! Shame something like blu-spec could not have been the replacement for CD. In an ideal world it would be, but digital download and streaming shit killed any chance of that. THAT is what i was referring to when I said I hate digital.
Congratulations, you are now the owner of a Thorens TT. They last for ever, I have had my TD147 Jubilee since Thorens had their golden jubilee in 1983.
The TD147 works perfectly, the suspension "bounces" as it should and it still has the original belt from 36 years ago.
The cueing problem is easily solved. The arm lift bar, in front of the arm pivot, can collect dust and crap. Give it a good clean (IPA)and also the underneath of the arm which touches the lift bar.
The slow "start-up" can be avoided by keeping the platter turning. With a bit of practice, drop a record onto the platter, cue the arm and when you have finished listening, raise the arm and return the arm to the arm rest.
Then using your finger tips, lift the record clear of the platter.
The constant start/stop and also speed changing will shorten the life of the drive belt.
As usual, your diagnostic skills and great presentation gives enormous pleasure and enjoyment.
Kieron.
You are the first person on TH-cam or anywhere online to properly explain and demonstrate the proper way to adjust the TP-11 tone arm. How you showed the movement of the charcoal colored weight to 0 after you adjusted the larger light silver weight to perfectly float the arm is a key step and one that I never knew! The numbers on the weight never matched or made sense until now. They just never matched up for me as I would use a digital scale to get to 1.75 but the number on the weight would read something completely different. Thanks for this!!!
with the comeback of vinyl and cassette..someone like you is necessary to maintain our turntable and cassette deck. there are not a lot of people with your knowledge of retro equipment
This is for me the TURNTABLE. Years a ago bought one on the flea-market for $5.
What a great design and elegance.
I have 30.00 into this one. I could easily get 600.00 for it.
Hello!
Nice gift! May I suggest you download a Thorens protractor to align perfectly your new Shure cartridge. Another point is to use a small electronic scale to get the exact mass applied on the stylus. The Thorens arms are not known to be exact when using the rotating dial.
Another point is to have a look at the start / speed selector and get a drop of silicon grease on surfaces to avoid premature grip and breaking. To do that, you have to return your turntable and unscrew the 4 feet. Before doing that, remember to remove the Platter and counter platter and lock the arm!
The small plastic feet can be replaced by better ones or spikes so small budget.
The important point I to take care of the lid with has specially fragile hinges and no special breakes, so don't let it close free!
A replacement lid is generally sold here in Europe for about 150€, so be cautious with yours. Using fine special polish for plastics and a set of special foam discs is a good idea, but remember to always get it wet, act slowly with mild pressure. You can get a very nice result, as far as the plastic is not cracked or too deeply scratched.
Some also say the plinth can be replaced by massive wood specially carved or even stone, we have some specialists to spend many more money to rebuilt these fantastic machines. But most important is to get a good cartridge, and eventually replace the audio wirings that suffer from time and bad RCA plugs.
The choice of a good cartridge is important too, and I can tell a lot about compliance, different arms versions, stylus shapes... You can also find information about SME arms replacement solutions, but I don't know if this is so important, as these what perfectly built in the best vinyle years in Germany, following a long Swiss tradition for fine mechanics. The choice is Infinite, and depends first of how much you can or want to spend...
We still have fools or genious here in France who build hand made precision machines for more than 30000€! And you have to wait two years to get one!
I personally own 4 different Thorens and many Japanese, big and massive direct drive DP Denon style, full auto Pioneers and tangential Sony's, but I always come back to belt driven, suspended counter chassis Thorens, with a good Shure cartridge, or a budget Audio Technica...
And these can still be found for reasonable budget, as far as you don't want to play high end with fabulous TD124... Or new extraordinary shaped ones. Don't forget the cartridge/ stylus budget, it's possible to spend a lot for these, and replacement styli are getting scarce or expensive when possible, especially with moving coil type or special diamond shapes (Shiibata, Van den Hull, hyperelliptic are getting super rare). You can spent far more for refilling a DL103 Denon that you could have spent to buy it! And I don't tell about Elac boron mounted high cut stylus... As far as you can get good results with an elliptical or even simpler... Have to try or test things, and I suspect many won't tell a difference from a Grado, Ortofon, Shure or whoever is surviving in the scarce vinyle market.
A TD166 or 165 can be found for less than 200€ here in Europe, "dans son jus". A better version or with a more modern auto stop for less than 300€.
They are generally provided with a cartridge, but many are out of shape or junk. Many have found these turntables for a few bucks in the past, and their value is now fairly recognized and climbing. The first TD165 I bought (20 years ago) was sold for 30€ in a second hand seller who didn't even know that a belt was needed! And it was supplied with a mint new Shure V15 with an hyperelliptic stylus designed for defunct quadrophony, and supposed to reach 15 to 35000 Hz Bandpass! The sound was fantastic...
In terms of audio fidelity, tone respect, quality of harmonics, space image and so on, I join you to judge vinyle a far better support compared to digital, even uncompressed. I know, we have to care for the best cleanliness of our discs and stylus, manage wall supports to eliminate low frequency floor resonances, manage with crackles, pops and sibilance (the s problem), the sound is far more realistic and worthwhile at the end. I've compared with the best DA converter (a true 16 bits ultra high end double selected TDA1541 Marantz), same records simply doesn't sound the same: one sounds real, the other is very near, but... Something is missing, that is lost in the sampling technology, the harmonics in the filtering...
Singers voices are specially sensitive to that phenomenon, but some recordings don't simply sound the same!
Alas, the quality and the way discs are made is a still a major problem, as you can get very different results for the same recordings depending on where, when and who pressed it. It is also highly perceptible that new releases and repress are now digitally remastered or treated, I should say mistreated. Even if first sound engineers had to deal with minimum budget, they achieved greatest results with simple means. When you were recording live with only a pair of high quality microphones, it's a minimum of 8 in numerous situations. But you don't get better results. Of course you can get the best of the piano in a grand orchestra, but it's not the way you ear it if you're there in the audience. I know recording engineers that do wonders even with digital, using simple means, but also refer to analog 15ips analog tapes as masters, and that's where the best sound is. A few mad Japanese or English publishers still produce full analog discs or magnetic tapes (I mean reel to reel 15 IPS), but they are expensive, exclusive and hard to get! And maybe most buy it and don't get the difference, as it's also a form of investment as good wine bottles. If you don't hear a difference on your MP3 JVC 1000 watt 3D sound system... In French we say "c'est servir de la confiture aux cochons" (feeding pigs with Marmelade)!
I agree 100% with your assessment of vinyl vs. CD. Another factor, I believe, in the younger generation's preference for vinyl is that the only other source with which they are familiar is low bit-rate MP3's. Of course vinyl is going to sound better in that instance. We need to educate the younger generations.
I, myself, have digitized my entire music collection (CD's, vinyl, and cassettes) into 320 kbps MP3's for the car, and FLAC for home listening.
it's lovely to see these old turntables brought back to life by an expert - keep it going !!
Great post. I still have my Thorens 160 and still love it. My ears are the limiting factor these days, I'm afraid.
I also have a Thorens TD 160, and will have to do a little fine tuning to get it back in shape.
Still looks new, though. I loved this thing but haven't heard it in years. Maybe watching all these vids will inspire me to set all my gear up again.
Thanks for these videos. I have a few turntables that were not working and your videos have helped me. Thanks!
I love it! It's unusual to me.
I use Turtle Wax (car Wax) to clean plastic dustcovers. If the scratches aren't too bad.
I could be crazy, but I thought years ago, I could hear the music before the needle hit the groove.
And the sound you hear without amplification is called "needle talk". You are correct about the mixing and mastering. Vinyl has the advantage of a large piece of album art as the sleeve.
Good rant! Something I never knew about records and CDs. Well said.
Thorens is my favorite turntable brand! Thanks for posting. Pricey belt though....
Wow, after reading many comments I can't believe how many people still have their Thorens turntables. Inspires me to dig out my TD 160, tune it up and fined my old LPs.
have just favourited 2 of yr thorens videos. will definitely be useful to me when my td160 arrives. thank you
I just got one and I am curious what sources you used to get the most out of your TD160
I like your videos even more now I know you like Chick Corea and Return to Forever!
Lots of companies went for the suspended sub-chassis design. Never tried them personally. I've always owned Rega TTs with a solid lightweight plinth.
You bastard! Someone just “gave” you a TD 165? That is one fantastic machine. Lucky. 👍🏼👍🏼
I take records for what they are, imperfect but can sound great.
That's a nice heavy platter, almost no fluctuations in speed, i like that.
I also like tape recorders with a heavy flywheel for the same reason.
Old fashoned methods that work.
The platter and arm both isolated, i know it's not perfect but it helps a lot.
Perhaps a later version deck had a start up jocky wheel to quickly put the energy into the platter, then retract to let the belt keep speed.
Possibly.
Spend $18-$20 to get a spindle protection rod. It replaces the rear motor screw and keeps the platter from damaging the Pulley and motor spindle.
You also should have changed The 4 headshell/cartridge wires, another $20 well spent.
Next, Deoxit on the cartridge, wire, headshell connectors also a good move
Nah. I am cheap. Turntable had seen about 10 hours of use since this video. I did order the correct belts as the shop sold me the wrong one. No it wasn't 20 bucks either it was 50.
Very interesting insight,into the technical side of recording.
I was watching another channel and to check the speeds he had a app , I think it was called "RPM" and you just sit the phone on the mat amd it kept its text lined up from his point of view. I think it read the RPM out to two decimal places to the right. Great videos thanks again for another one.
Yes I know there is an app for that, but I am old school. I trust my eyes and a strobe disk.
@@12voltvids , if I had strobe I would use it over the app, I trust the strobe alot more then the app. I put it out there for people like me that don't have 1. Thanks for the reply and thanks for the videos !
@@kardeef33317
A strobe disk is easy enough to make. Just print one out, the trick is you need a magnetic ballast fluorescent lamp to actually use it. CFL bulbs these days are all electronic ballast so they won't work. It needs the quick strobe effect of a neon lamp or fluorescent lamp operating on a magnetic ballast to actually strobe.
@@12voltvids, Didn't know that for sure, I would have tried a CFL. LOL!!!
Capacitors feeding the motor need to be replaced. That slow-up-to-speed is typical of shot capacitors. Motor torque should also improve wit new capacitors. You will find the offending caps in the light grey plastic box nearest the motor ( inside the turntable)
It has been that way since new.
@@12voltvidsthen it has been stuffed from new. My TD 160 was like yours I had the caps replaced and it has much more torque and gets up to speed much quicker. Note mine has an AC motor. I bet you have never thought to check the capacitors.
Make the best of what life has to offer Dave. I have enjoyed music for decades, even playing music in a band. The better the equipment , especially the quality of the speakers, the better the results. I now have tinnitus and need to change the equalization to fit my taste. I still like to get "concert level " when my buddies appreciate it. I had my "pop & click" stolen and wish there is a suitable replacement so I can enjoy my albums in a clean/ clip free volume for personal enjoyment. Thanks for the T-table refresh. Would you prefer a "direct-drive " ? J K
I use a technics slm1, a direct drive for recording. This one will end up on my tube amp in my living room
Tinnitus, join the club. Too much shredding with the volume cranked to 11 when I was young. My old pal thought he was going to be the next Jimmy Hyndrix.
Between me and him, me whaling on the bass and my buddies ripping the strings off his telecaster, and beating the crap out of the drums. I am surprised I can hear anything. Too many concerts when I was young too. The worst one ever was seeing the stones at the King dome in Seattle in 1980 i think. Had an "obstructed view" seat. Today they wouldn't be permitted to sell these seats, but there was a speaker column directly next to us blocking our view of the stage. Only saw the back of their heads occasionally. Left there, and drove 3 hours to get home. Ears still ringing the next morning. Come to think of it I don't think that ringing ever stopped. That was the night that me hearing was damaged more than any other time. As you know some days are worse than others.
I would have used a protractor to align the cartridge! But you probably did that after the video!
Hi, interesting work.
What kind of oil did you use? A Thorens special oil? A generic oil?
A sewing machine oil?
Regards...
Hello, i have the same Thorens, but TD160, then i would like to know where can i buy the same components that you've changed on this recordplayer. thx a lot
Awesome find! The company is called Thorens, not Thornes (a swiss product).
Yes I know typo on the file name and youtube uses that for the title. All fixed.
Except that it says MADE IN GERMANY
Why does the label say made in germany if it's a swiss product?
@@rimmersbryggeri It's a long time ago Thorens was sold to Germans, its headquarter is now in Bergisch Gladbach, Germany. You can read it on its official page www.thorens.com/en/imprint.html .
And it's pronounced TOR-enz not THOR-enz
Fantastic turntable. Mine is over 30 years old & works like a dream (serviced regularly).
However why do people say ‘needle’ ? it’s a stylus. A needle you sow with or a very old cylinder player.
What you forget in your argumentation is that sometimes it doesn't all matter if the technology behind the playback source is "better". It may be better on paper (higher resolution on digital format) but this is not necessarily the main factor in the listening situation. Since we not only listen music technically but also emotionally.
Ya da ya da ya da. Ok you like putting the record on and dropping the needle. Good for you. I am just tired of people claiming that vinyl and cassette tapes sound better and try to convince people of this. I really get a kick out of those that spend huge dollars on speciality turn tables and cartridges hoping to improve the sound of vinyl. The problem with vinyl and tape is this. Every time it is played back the sound changes slightly. When that needle is being dragged through the groove the tip of the needle being bashed back and forth gets very hot. Guess what that hot tip does to the wall of the groove? It makes it soft for a split second and in this time the groove makes a microscopic change which the next time it is played will slightly change the sound. One of the reasons that jvc worked on developing super vinyl that was used by mobile felidity sound labs was because it was more resistant to this. Super vinyl was developed for cd4 (quad) records because the high frequency carrier where the rear channels were recorded was very susceptible to this. Many modern pressings these days are done with with this 170 gram super vinyl but none of the old vintage records except the very expensive ones by mobile fedility back in the early 80s and 4 channel records. Everything else was cheap vinyl and a huge percentage of that recycled vinyl. Record stores would send back unsold records. They were melted down to make new vinyl to make more records. This recycled vinyl was not as good as virgin vinyl. This doesn't happen with digital. Digital is the same every time you play it. A proper mastered cd will blow away any vinyl or tape copy. The problem is many pop and rock cds of the 80s were not properly mastered. The analog source tape was equalized for the limitations of vinyl (de "s" and bass rolled to center channel for example.) A complete remix was required to make a cd shine and most record companies were not prepared to do this. This was not an issue in the jazz or classical labels. They did this from day 1 and their cds sound absolutely fantastic. Far better than any vinyl pressing of same.
@@12voltvids Ok, but nobodys hears a microscopic change that seems to let the record sound "different" from every spin. Same you could say bout cds that they can have dropouts when 20 or 30 years old. Or they even don't play any more. Scratched cds have dropouts, the player can't read them etc....
I don't know if you can compare what you try to compare. Which players are used, which amplifier, which speakers, which cables, which cartridge, which room, which ears, which mood is the listener in, which music etc...?
You can try to measure it in the laboratory but that's about it.
@@kpt.beyond819
Actually you do hear the changes over time. Compare a heavily played record vs a new one and you will hear it. CD doesn't change. CD doesnt wear out. Minor surface scratches dont affect CD as there in redundant error correction data built in to correct errors. If you damage the reflective surface then yes the disk could skip or not play at all. Cdr can be damaged by leaving exposed to sunlight. I have cdr recorded back in the late 80s when I got my first very expensive burner that still play. The original cdr were gold with dark green recording layer. Disks had to go into a cady to be recorded. Was a Sony burner that was about 1000. Blank disks were also bloody expensive. About 20.00 each. I used them to backup photos in the early days and made a few compilation cds. The disks have lasted though. The later higher speed silver CD have not lasted. I have over 100 unrecorded gold cdr that have never been opened to be used slowly for special projects.
@@12voltvids You can't say heavily played records sound generally bad. Some do but also I have 70s records from my dad which sound really great. I lately played a totally worn out Billy Idol record again which as a kid I played wet because back then it was worn out already. The sound was great. I have the same album on CD but it's way better on vinyl. On CD the bass is wobbly and the highs sound artifical.
Whereas I own a Foo Fighters album both vinyl and CD and CD sounds much better. Surely because what you say about mixing and mastering. This album was done for CD and not for vinyl.
I just wanna say the process of producing and listening back music is too complicated and too different to determine "the better medium".
And redundant error correction fills in data which affects the sound if I remember correctly?
@@kpt.beyond819
Early CD production was done from the analog master tapes that were already EQ for the vinyl cut, and the record companies were too cheap to pay the engineer to make a second master without the processing needed to make the cassette and vinyl sound as good as those formats could.
I mostly listened to jazz recordings during the 80 and 90s because 80s pop music of that era just gave me a headache. When I hear crap like culture club, ah ha, duran duran, men without hats ect come on the radio I can't find the tuning dial fast enough.
Love return to forever!
Saw them live about a dozen years ago. What a show.
Nice to hear an objective viewpoint on sound quality, as opposed to the subjective "X is better than Y" or "Y pisses all over Z" rubbish. End of the day, everyone has a different sound that "does it" for them & they can't say it's better or worse than the next guy's... Truly the quality isn't what matters, it's the enjoyment. :) Not sure I like that Thorens TT myself, belt drive I'm coming around to as OK but that anti-skate just looks excessively complex and fragile. Nice looking piece though.
It depends on how they are mastered and mixed. I had CD's that sounds better than vinyl, and vice versa. There is no absolute. If they took the time to care , all CD'S would sound better than vinyl.
Looks very much like the Thorens TD160C I had.
I hear a hum once the needle hit the record. My old BSR turntable had the same hum sound.
So I thought I would try this on my TD-166MKII , wrongly assuming that the only real difference between it and the TD-165 was the tonearm. However, the 166MkII has a forked protrusion coming up from the plinth that hooks over a plastic ring attached to the subplatter underneath it. This piece looks like it is intended to prevent removing the subplatter from the bearing shaft, a task at which it succeeds quite well. Any idea how I might be able to remove the subplatter without major surgery on my 'table? Thanks!
Great video. I agree with you l love playing records on my record player. But CDs can hold more music and sound real good too.
Record, old tech, clicks, pops, center panned bass, rumble, feedback, low dynamic range. CD high dynamic range, no hiss, no pops no wow and flutter, longer recording time. I will take a CD any day of the week over vinyl. About the only thing vinyl has going for it is watching the record turn while listening to it.
@@12voltvids And the album art, liners and feel. I know CDs have the little book, but it just isn't the same. Just something about the feel of a record. Not so much the music reproduction as it is the nostalgia for me I think...
Very cool video. Thanks for sharing. Cheers!
1:52 NO mistake if you were in japan. the japanese call the platter the turntable
Well it literally is the table that turns
Yup. The dynamic range possible by digital blows vinyl out of the water. Also, a completely silent background is important and vinyl can never achieve that. Having said that, I still love spinning records.
unfortunately, most people have only heard horribly compressed MP3s.
Nice free deck! I wonder if the TD 165 & TD 160 used different motors. My TD 160 takes a second or two to get up to speed, but more like half the time of this one.
Nice jazz records you have their.
I don't have a huge jazz collection on vinyl. Perhaps 50 albums. I do have a massive jazz Cd collection on the other hand. Probably closer to 600 CDs and even more on the computer. Back when Emusic was first starting they offered unlimited download for 10 bucks a month, and I just went crazy, and downloaded everything in site. Listened to it later, and got some real gems. Then they went commercial and started charging by the track, so I became very selective. They went to I think it was 20 tracks a month, and then they pissed me off, because I hadn't downloaded any during a month I was on holidays, and when I went to download they said sorry you have used your download for the month, because they went on a 28 day cycle, and kept changing the cut off date. So I quit them, and resorted to recording off the music service my cable co provides. Still they play great tunes and I am always expanding my ever growing library.
May I ask you . Where can I buy the 45rpm adapter for Thorens TDS115 . Thanks.
Are you Shure that cartridge is a good fit for that Thorens? ;-)
BTW, does this turntable lift the tonearm up once the needle gets to the leadout groove?
You are right about the possibility of a CD, but in the real live they used the CD to compress the music more and limit it up to 0,00 db. The loudness war, you maybe heard about. Also the digital remastering destroyed the sound specially of Jazz. So in the real world the vinyl sounds better than a CD, even it would be possible to make the CD sound much better. I am a professional musician all my live, worked in studios, mixed and mastered myself, did the whole thing. In my opinion vinyl sounds better, no contest even with newer music. Mr Fremer says it the loudest and I agree.
Let's say we agree to disagree. When cd was made using analog master that was equally for cassette or vinyl distro then yes they compressed the crap out of it. I have heard remix (not remastered as that just uses an analog mix) where they totally remix the Mukti track session tape cd sounds fantastic. I have both vinyl and remixed and the remixed sounds better and I too have spent time in studio.
What is a better turntable Dual 1229 or Thorens 160. You must know because you have worked on them both
I have both. The dual is an idler drive auto changer and the thorens a belt full manual. The thorens is superior.
Haha De essing. Have you ever heard the song. I want to Know What love is by Foreigner on the radio. Sounds like he put his tongue through a mincer.
Yup, you're right.
Just picked up an ADC LT31 Linear tracking for $9 & I added new belt. Lubed tracks. Plays great but not like my Technics slb-2
Not too many tables play like a Technics. I have an SLM1
Anyone who did not live at the time that records were mainstream will never understand the true impact of just how big the CD was a revolution in music reproduction. I was born in 1978 so I saw the tail end of the vinyl era. Vinyl was cool in its own right, but when CD came out, I mean, wow! Just wow! They put the highest quality recordings on it to show off its superior playback, and we were blown away! Music today is crap! Pure and simple! No dynamic depth, no richness, and no complexity. It doesn't show off what digital can do at all. That's why you can put it on iron oxide cassette and not notice a difference. If anything, it might even improve the sound. The old folks back in my day used to say that music sounded like noise. To me, modern music sounds weird, but it is definitely crap. There is no drive to get it right. Just slap in on, send it off, and make that quick buck. GARBAGE! At times, they all sound like they were played from the same album, and what's with this subsonic music synthesiser crap that you can only hear through woofers?! Other than maybe drums, that's your only bass. Music in the eighties filled in the entire listening spectrum with music. They didn't cram it together with volume compression and clip the crap out of it. They would have smacked you upside the head for even saying something that stupid. All that time and effort put in to making quality music just to clip and compress it? Hell no! Sure, that is often why records and tapes sound better, but only because they didn't do that back then. Records pressed today are likely going to be clipped and compressed because it is practically a requirement now in the music industry. They think this loudness war needs to be won. No, it doesn't. It needs to be put to an end.
Actually.no...
Many who use vinyl LPs that was the consumer audio media available (except for tape ) treated LPs like yesterday's newspaper .Then they had real noisy LPs
This was not a problem with CD even if their audio quality was not as god as LPs in a high end system
So those people loved CDs.
Real audiophile of that era knew different and could her the defects of CDs
Having sad that, a really good CD is better that a badly pressed LP any day.
There are badly made CDS just as there were baldly made LPs
So, it's no so much a media, but how a given media is used to get the best quality
Hi, I have pretty much the same turntable, great condition, well I mean, comparable to yours. Now, the belt is getting loose and so I've decided to put on a new one. I didn't order a Thorens-branded one, but I got one from a store that is meant to do the job just as well and for half the price. Anyway, when I set it up, it would play 33T perfectly (well I can't check for sure, what is that thing you're using to measure the speed of the turntable, looked kinda crazy!). But whenever I switched to 45T, then the belt would make its way to the top of that white revolving thing but wouldn't stay on it, or wouldn't stay at the top, it would settle somewhere in between. Any advice? I first it had to do with the belt being to wide and, going through that metal arm/lever, its trajectory would be altered but it turns out it the same width as the original I used before. So I'm tempted/considering to see if I can work it out on the spring of the leverage (don't know if I'm being clear here), I mean that metal arm that switches the high/low position...
get the proper belt. what you are describing is typical of cheap belts
I just dug out my TD160, which looks the same as the 165. It doesn't have a needle. Should I replace both the cartridge and the needle? If so, what manufacture/part should I be looking for to replace them?
There are many brands of cartridge available. You can spend from 50 to 5000 for a cartridge and needle.
Ortofon 2m blue wont be disapointed, run it at 1.85 grams
Is this the same turntable you did a video on 11/12/2021 showing the speed was a little fast? Just wondering!
Don't think so. I was given another one about 2 or 3 years ago that I did a cartridge swap on. I sold that one for big bucks to a guy that had sucker tattoed on his forehead. Actually had 2 guys interested in it and they started bussing each other up till one guy ran out of 20s and the other guy had one more.
There are 2 types of 2nd hand vinyls. Totally knackered or Mint. Some of them must have been bought played once and put into storage then there are the ones thast are mint exept one track that is unplayable.
I have a few from my youth that are like that. They are Beatle albums, and the hits, well they sound like crap, and then there are tracks like "Revolution 9" which plays perfect.
One that is totally worn, to the point that it won't play very good is "I want You" off Abbey Road. Dam I played that song so many times when I was a kid, just listing to George play that solo, and try to play it myself. Wore that one out completely. IMHO that was one of the best tracks the Beatles ever did from a musical perspective. That musical interlude was fantastic.
Too, you might like a Gentleman Guitarist "Gabor Szabo" long dead now. I think he was from one of the Soviet satellites way back in the day. He did some very cool things. Anyway, jus sayin"
He was Hungarian, and yes he is very good. I have some of his stuff. You would be amazed at my library of jazz and fusion music.
@@12voltvids The fusion seemed I don't know...a little too chaotic for me I guess. I mean, I gave some of it a shot Larry Coryell (SP), Billy Cobham, John McLaughlin and Chick too. Maybe-No...I just wasn't feeling it. You know who I always liked very much and still do was John Klemmer. I got all his stuff. Jean Luc Pontes' Enigmatic Ocean was another favorite.
Today and of late it's actually been Chet Baker. Have you took a gander at The Squirrel Nut Zippers yet? You must youtube them and look for those old cartoons as part of their presentation.
I could go on and on and on...enjoy your day my friend. Oh and how come everybody is always "giving you" these things you work on?!!! You lucky bugger!
@@chris7662
I have clients that bring me their stuff to work on, and others that just want their old gear gone, and rather than bin it give it to me. Garage sale time coming soon so I will be unloading some of the stuff I have, as I have too much now.
Jan Akkerman is from my country
Does tracking too light cause semblance.
If you are too light the needle is likely to jump out of the groove completely on loud bass.
Yes, tracking too light can cause sibilance, if that's what you're referring to.
Tracking too light causes *increased* record wear as the needle kind of slaloms back and forth from one side of the groove to the other. It also causes more Distortion, yes.
Al DiMeola!? Dude...are you serious!? Love Al DiMeola. Like the vids and watching you work. Don't care for this turntable though.
I haven't seen a turntable I care for. Archaic technology. I'll take a digital copy into a good DAC any day of the week.
@@12voltvids What's funny, me watching , is I know absolutely nothing about electronics and I hate myself for it! Lol. I'd love to have those kinds of skills which you possess especially since my local tech is getting up in age and may not be there when we need him in the future. He, is opposite you for he loves the old vintage equipment and does computer work as well. Sadly, there is nobody else close by doing this kind of work. It sucks.
@@chris7662 I like vintage equipment too. I have a collection of old tube radios going back close to 100 years now. I do like the newer digital stuff though.
Not from a service point though.
I still have my TD160. Where can I find a belt for it?
Inovative audio in Surrey BC
Mine was a TD 160 a cut-above, I think, the TD 165.. 0 plastic. I had to give it away; it still hurts. These things are bare-bones-beauties, but they do go thru belts like crazy, get a 10-pack - I replaced the cartridge as some little brat probably'd heard from his dad they were diamonds (LOL); we'd left him in the music room while partaking of adult party favors and when they were long gone, I went to play a record ... -those bastards never mentioned a thing! Anyways, something dreadful happened last year and I had to give it to a very sad person. Hell, his best friend had given it to me. Anyhoo, that's my Thorens The Mighty Epic proem. lucky u.
This one is ok. I probably won't even use it as I don't have a huge vinyl collection. I need to get a preamp to plug it into my tube amp. I prefer the sound and convienece of my 200 disk CD changer
@@12voltvids I just have a decent computer set-up for sound, some Altec Lansing like 2.5"? barrels, powered by wallwart and a decent Kenwood 10" sub-its surround foam is gone and I gaff taped it up lol.. still sounds okay on a lot of things. And youtube.. and whatever shareware tunes I could dig-up on the harddrive. CD's are kinda dinosaurs too now -tho I do have a 58 Maggie to fix still. 2-piece console... I think I wrote about that to u before. You said you're much more into accuracy than "warmth" or whatever.. and efficiency, reliability.. I'm into whatever works at the time that I ain't gotta fix. I'd buy that Thorens off of u for $100 any day.. :D or, ya know, what do u think for it?
watching further, yeah, feedback.. The TD160, I could turn it up to 11 and it gave absolutely 0 feedback. LOUDEST player i have ever heard.
@@12voltvids presence is really impossible to sample lol.. I know I know.. I'll shaddap now.. good evening, Sir.
@@_Ramen-Vac_
I could get a lot more than 100 for it. Local vintage stereo shop has one in the store for 575 on sale.
I like warmth to the sound, I run all tube amp into a pair of Technics SB7000 speakers. I just don't like all the racket that vinyl gives. Pops, clicks, and all the noise associated with the needle in the groove, plus limitations. I enjoy the wide dynamics that digital recording brings, along with the smoothness of an all tube amp. I have several tube amps. Both SE and push pull.
Hey, I was recording that! Stop messing around with the playback. Just drop the needle and go have a coffee break. ;-P
Ha ha. ya right. But I need to make a few cents from this, not help out Chick, and Al, they are already rich.
I don't think mp3's are crap if you rip them directly from your CD'S
Mp3 sound fine if they are encoded at 340kbits variable bit rate. Anything over 250k you shouldn't be able to hear any difference .
@@12voltvids yes I agree and I just happen to agree with you about CD'S as well and I have a lot of CD'S and I collect CD'S
@@richardhudson3014 I have over 1000 cds been colecting since 2003. I am embarrassed about the first CD I bought. Would not catch me listening to that now.
@@12voltvids I don't have quite that many but I'm close
I’m so jealous, I really want one of those turntables. Are you selling it? Or willing to trade?
Anything is for sale for the right price. If someone wants this more than me then it will go.
When I get an offer of the right price that is.
Great turntable! Use synthetic oil?
No I just used 20 wt non detergent petroleum oil.
I have a Thorens TD160 Mk I and one of the channels stops working intermittently. The amplifier/speakers is not the problem, so it must be something from the turntable. What can I do to fix it?
Likely the tone arm wires need to be replaced.
@@12voltvids Thank you. I think so too. Will do so.
@ it's either the wires or an intermittent cartridge. Now from personal experience the td165 you see here I found at the side of the road and when I got it one channel was dead and the note on it said wires broken in tonearm. Measure them with my meter from the head shell to the end of The wire and it had continuity put a new cartridge on problem solved it was an open coil in the cartridge. Previous owner had taken it to a shop shop measured continuity from the RCA plugs on one side open told them it was going to be tonearm wires and that it was going to cost $200 to fix owner put it at the side of the road on garbage day. I picked this up probably a dozen years ago let it sit in my storage unit for a couple years before getting to it because I was fully expecting to have to replace the head shell wires after all it was the shop that I used to work at that diagnosed it, the tech they hired to replace me when I left diagnosed it as the tonearm wires and the customer did not fix. Now in my case it was not intermittent it was completely out on one channel but it is possible that a cartridge could go intermittent just as easily as the wires so if you have a spare cartridge it might be a good idea just to swap the cartridge first and see if the problem goes away if it continues then yeah probably the wires are bad right at the end of the tone arm where they flex back and forth as the arm moves across the record
@@12voltvids Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I have rewired everything and now seems to be working properly. I still need to get rid of some hum, which I don't know how to fix. I am waiting for some cables and plugs to arrive and replace them, I hope that will fix the hum.
@ check your ground wire.
A CD-format was created as a replacement of a Compact Cassette, not a vinyl record. And its sounds not as good as a CC in some circumstances. CD is more comfortable for persons who don't care about a sound quality. First and foremost unnaturalness of CD sound (and other low-res digital recordings) is a big increase of non-hamonic distortion with decreasing of sound levels. While all analog devices including man's ears gives an increase of distortions (harmonic in this case) with increasing of sound levels.
One of the world's greatest mastering engineers Mr Bob Ludwig lives not far from you, so you cas ask him about all that matters;).
The place you've bought a belt is really expensive: I've bought a belt for my TD125 from Switzerland for 17 euro including very expensive shipping from Switzerland to Russia.
Hahahha you had me going for a second there! Love your sense of humor!
Alex K, where did you get that BS? It's NOT true. Cassette remained in use to about 2000 or so when it finally fell out of favor. LP's were being dumped as early as the mid 80's, once CD players and CD's came on the scene and began dropping in price as people migrated to the CD format.
@@johnhpalmer6098 Yep CDs were for the home system early on, car CD players didn't really become affordable and common place until well into the 1990s. It took awhile to figure out how to keep them from skipping with every bump.
@@turnersparadise8368 That's true but I seem to recall there were a few aftermarket CD head units in the mid to late 80's? I could be wrong, though this being the US. I have a nephew that once had a van, a Dodge I think that had an early CD player in it. Portable CD players were out by the mid 80's and many of us used them in our cars through the cassette adapters and they did quite well.
It took until the early Aughts before CD head units started to be offered by the manufacturers enmass, but some higher priced vehicles had them on offer by the late 90's if I recall. However, the venerable cassette was still being offered by dealers until what, 2004-2006 time period before being phased out all together.
@@johnhpalmer6098 Oh, sure, they were offered for cars as early as 85, but they were expensive. And...they skipped pretty bad.
What the heck? that cartridge and stylus looks the same as the ones that come on the crosley crap
I don't know what kind of crosleys you've been looking at! I've never seen one like that on a crosley.
No one but an audio fool says that vinyl is better based on accuracy of recording or reproduction. The argument persists because of the purely subjective listening experience. Which, on average, is better with vinyl. I liken the comparison to the differences between an electric and an acoustic guitar. With the acoustic, every little detail influences the sound quality/tone. Depending on the type of music, volume, etc., an electric guitar's signal path is much more important. You summed it up at the end. You said you were going to put that turntable in front of a tube amp. Every stage of that signal chain is microphonic, adding natural harmonics and warmth to all but the worst recordings. In the digital world, great pains have to be taken to capture those harmonics and warmth at recording, or it will never be.
If you doubt this opinion and have a spectrum analyzer, it is easy to see evidence.
Not arguing with you, just my perspective. Love the vids and the education that you provide. Thanks.
You know the saying don't argue with an idiot, or a fool because you will never reason with them, and never win that one.
Nice T table. I like the isolation but not good for back cuing.
Impossible because it takes a good 10 seconds to get up to speed
I think you have the worst dj turntable. I have seen a DJ table on here once, it has a giant motor and rim dive and gets to full speed in under a second.
@@markanderson350
It is not a DJ table. No belt drive table is much good for a DJ. They use things like a Russco Cue Master, or a Technics SL-M1 direct drive.
We used Russco in the TV station I worked in for record cues. They start up pretty much instantly. Something like 1/8 of a turn to full speed.
@@12voltvids that's the name. Rusco. I was joking yes you have an audiophile t table
@@markanderson350 You mean an audiophool table.
What is 'The Expensive Place'?
There is a vintage audio service shop out here that has some nice expensive vintage gear in it. I won't mention the store name here. He bought up much of the stock from Main electronics when they closed, but wont sell any parts, just turntable belts and cartridges / needles.
@@12voltvids How come you won't mention the store name?
@@infinitecanadian Because he is not paying me to advertise for him.
@@12voltvids Oh, I see.
If you really haven’t heard a TT you care for, I’ll be happy to take that one off your hands. I’ll double what you paid for it. 😉
This one will go to someone with sucker tattooed across his forehead. Someone will give me 500 for it.
Some new remastered CD sounds like crap because of loudness war that they squashed the dynamic range to the point that it's like you are listening to a radio. That could also be the reason some old vinyl sounds better.
The cds I have heard sound superior to vinyl. Of course a good CD player helps too. Many use a cheap player or a DVD player which dont have the best circuits in them. It also depends on the engineer that mixed. The music I listen to has all been properly mixed. The artists are professional jazz musicians with golden ears striving to produce the most sonically perfect recording they can and it shows. Especially live recordings.
I listen to all types of music but for the modern hard rock I usually just listen to the radio, FM and HD.
@@12voltvids
My CD player is a Sony CDP-S37. Our DVD player sounds slightly better but playing at a very high volume I can hear some slight hiss in-between songs while I don't hear any hiss on my CD player.
@@bobskie321
It all depends on the mastering engineer. Good engineers do it correct. I have heard good and bad recordings in bothmedia.
Oof...clean your vinyl and it will sound better.
Put the belt in hot water for a while to get it to fit better
Done many times.
CDs were ruined years ago by "the loudness wars". Digital crap is exactly the same. I am not a fan of digital anything, I like to own things I buy. Digital music, digital games, digital movies and tv shows. No thanks. The companies love it, because we do not get to own so many things now that there are fewer DVDs and BDs.
I do not like the shit they call music today anyway, so it is always going to be old music I am buying. So buying a mint/near mint first press record will always be better than digital. Why? Because the master tape was perfect at the time, 30, 40 years after a release tye tapes are worn and stretched. IF they are even using the original master.
I limit the new pressings I buy because most sound like crap compared to an original. Rare exceptions like the mono Beatles records which were AAA direct from the master tapes, sound incredible thanks to the tapes being in pristine condition. With the exception of the glue issue on PPM. By comparison, Abbey Road 2012 sounds like complete garbage because it was made from digital files.
Prince's 80's output is another that had care put into the reissues and sound great. I wish I could list more but unless it is a release done with care and most importantly, AAA from the masters, I will stick to an original.
Also if you think records have to always be all noisy and scratchy, you must not own any Japanese pressings. A mint Japanese record with a good cart sounds like a CD, no background noise. I am still amazed at how QUIET some of my Jp records are! My 37 year old Japanese red wax Beatles mono collection sounds whisper quiet compared to the scratch covered 2014 pressings. They are fairly quiet, but are so marked up from the bad handling of the discs, they have pops and clicks that a new record just should not have. The Jp records I own have zero noise.
As for needles not getting the information from the grooves, you said it yourself. Technology moved on and modern carts extract incredible amounts of detail from a record if it is there. Put a Audio Technica VM740ML or Ortofon Black on that Thorens and you will hear those records like never before.
I am not saying all this to argue your opinion, I am simply stating my own. I started buying records at 3 in 1980, I love them and am glad I got back into buying them 10 years or so ago. It does not replace CDs for me, but I gladly listen to an 80's record over a "remastered" CD. They are compressed to hell and have all the dynamics removed by the loudness crap. It seems it is never going to change no matter how many people complain.
The biggest problem for CDs in the 80's of pop and rock music is they were made from the same compressed (loudness wars) shitty master tape headed for the laquor cutter of the day.
Many CD re-masters were made from 2nd or 3rd generation tapes. Why, because the master tapes had deteriorated so bad they could not be recovered. I have a good cartridge on my thorens now, and the proper belt that cost 35.00 and it is relatively quiet, however it still does not hold a candle to, and no vintl release ever will, to a modern recording of quality music. I am not talking head banger rock, or crap, and any of that pop crap. I am talking good acoustic music. I listen to the jazz and blues masters. Both electric and acoustic performances. Go take a listen to Pat Metheney "the way up" on bluray, and you will hear some fantastic "digital" sounds. While listening you can also watch him perform. The recorded the entire album, a long form piece (over 60 minutes straight without a break) in Korea before a live audience, and it is an absolute masterpiece, both musicianship wise and technically.
A good digital recording will blow the doors off anything cut into a laquor disk and pressed into vinyl.
I do have many japanese pressings, including many done by Mobile Fedility Sound Labs, and these vinyl disks do indeed sound better, but still a good digital recording sounds better. Of coiurse if you are comparing a CD to a vinyl on something that was recorded in the limitation of analog, then the CD is not going to sound any better, and likely will not sound as good, which is why some people claim that vinyl sounds better, the CD is resolving the limitation of the recording technology used. Garbage in, garbage out. If you start with a full digital recording done in the studio or theater (for live performances) recorded properly then there is no comparison between vinyl and digital. You need a good CD player as well. A 20.00 play everything DVD player probably isn't going to do it justice, but a cd played on a good cd player, such as a Sony CDP X555ES as I have will sound better than any vinyl could ever sound.
This is not just my opinion, it is backed by science. Why do you think they had to apply the RIAA equalization curve to vinyl? Any time you have to pre-emphasize and then de-emphasize anything you are not getting back what went in. It is impossible. With digital, you sample the original waveform with enough sample points to reconstruct exactly what the original signal was. 44.1 is good enough to resolve to 20KHz 196KHz is far, far better and that is what is used by recording studios these days. Put that to a super audio CD or a DVD and you are getting the absolute best sound you can get.
@@12voltvids No doubt modern recordings will sound better in blu-spec audio, but I am mainly referring to original 60's-80's music. It has all been ruined by what idiot record companies did to CDs with the loudness and compression. Not to mention compressed digital garbage on itunes and what have you.
I love CDs as well. I got my first CD player for Christmas 1988 when I was 12. It was the most excitting thing for me since I was surprised with a stereo for my 7th birthday. I stopped buying records in 1989 because the CDs sounded better, my stereo I got along with the CD player was one of those all in one things with the twin tape decks. The turntable was pretty terrible. Also by 1988/1989, records in this country were garbage. The record companies dropped records extremely quickly here. In 1988 and early 1989, you still had Virgin Megastores full of records. By 1990, it was hard to find records anywhere. I think they really lowered the quality to make people stop buying them.
I do think now, that playing a late eighties/early 90's CD vs record now, the record would win most times. But it is as you said, the masters were not made for CD exclusively. Much in the same way a laserdisc made from a proper LD master will look amazing on a high end player, vs a disc that was made from a VHS master. Same thing happened with DVDs. The early LD dumps were horrible, once proper component DVD masters were used it was another story.
So in the case of blu-spec, I conceded that a modern recording made for that format will always be better. For the reasons I mentioned before, older music will always sound better on record to me. Unless they fix CD mastering, which I doubt will happen! Shame something like blu-spec could not have been the replacement for CD. In an ideal world it would be, but digital download and streaming shit killed any chance of that. THAT is what i was referring to when I said I hate digital.