Risking My Hands to Test the Mordhau (Murder Stroke)!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- Is it really safe to grab a sword by the blade and use it as an improvised bludgeon against a knight's armor? Or were these medieval folks just crazy?
@scholagladiatoria Challenge accepted! :)
The video that inspired me to do this:
Why I HATE the longsword MURDER STRIKE!
• Why I HATE the longswo...
DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. Messing around with sharp swords is risky, especially if you don't know what you're doing. For this video I put education and entertainment before my own safety. Did I get injured? Well, you're going to have to watch it to find out. ;)
Special thanks to Rick Marchand for letting me record at his place and helping out with a lot of sword tests I did that day. Check out his work:
wildertools.com/
/ @wildertoolsbyrickmarc...
/ wildertools
/ wildertools
Rick sharpens a knife
• Rick sharpens a knife.
Where to find historical manuscripts on medieval / renaissance armed fighting:
www.wiktenauer.com/
** Time Stamps **
00:00 - 00:27 The purpose of this technique
00:27 - 01:07 Test setup / 2014 demo
01:07 - 01:44 How you can grip the blade
01:44 - 02:19 Hands before testing / disclaimer
02:19 - 03:30 Tactics against armor
03:30 - 04:29 Palm protection (leather / mail gloves)
04:29 - 04:58 Sharpness demonstration
04:58 - 05:34 Test 1: Bare hands
05:34 - 06:00 Result: Did I get cut?
06:00 - 06:13 WARNING GRAPHIC
06:13 - 07:07 Aftermath / how risky is it?
07:07 - 07:39 Different blade (arming sword)
07:39 - 07:50 Would I do this full force?
07:50 - 09:17 Test 2: Leather gloves
09:17 - 09:44 Result / sword damage?
09:44 - 10:52 Test 3: Curved blade (kriegsmesser)
10:52 - 11:42 Can’t the enemy just grab it?
11:42 - 13:30 Test 3 result / discussion
13:30 - 14:38 Special designs for half-swording (spiky!)
14:38 - 15:12 A safe alternative way?
15:12 - 16:14 How effective is the strike?
16:14 - 17:37 How quick is it? / Conclusion / Outro
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Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
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Doctor: "You are losing a lot of blood."
Skal: "Yes but is there any structural damage?"
Doctor: * what's wrong with this guy *
This is literally me. Any time I get hurt I think is anything broken or irreparably damaged, if no then don't worry about it. It's just a nerve signal telling you to check the area. I checked, I'm good.
Reasonable question. If you are lucid enough to speak then the bloodloss isn't necessarily a big issue.
More permanent structural damage might be a bigger concern even if you are bleeding
Lol
I'm not missing the joke, but this actually pays a huge part in my response to pain. If I have a papercut, it hurts disproportionally to what's actually happened to my body, so I don't care. If I feel that same pain inside my vital organs, I'm going to find that far more unpleasant. I think pain is actually worse for me when I'm thinking "oh god, is this bad...?" If I confirm that I'm going to be okay, it becomes more tolerable
Even if you slice open the inside of your palm, if you kill or knock out the guy, it is still a win.
"Turn your sword into a mace with this one easy trick!" "Steel hates him!!"
Armored Heads don't want you to know this!!!
end them rightly with the pommel
Who drew ur pfp
'Don't try this at home, I'm a professional idiot.' Made me snort embarrassingly loud at work. thanks Skal!
same here, but i had to rewind that 4 times until i realized what field he's saying to be a professional in.
@@MidnightSt I'm Skallagrim...and this is Jackass!
@@michaelbates4834 Lol was thinking the same thing
Sounds like a Brainiac statement.
that line is being quoted
"Right, sharpness test." *Scythes through paper at a bad angle with minimal force*
And suddenly I appreciate that "do not do this at home" even more.
Yeah that shit is sharper than any knife I own
"Can't the enemy just grab it?"
I mean...do people try to catch a baseball bat if a crazy person swings that at you?
I have...
But I'm not normal...or so I have been told.
Depends on where you catch it. Intercepting the bat before full acceleration and behind the center of mass is definitely viable.
@@someguy3861 I said "try", not "can". Yeah, theoretically possible. I'd like to see you try in an actual life or death situation.
yeah actually, the most effiective way to disarm someone with a long bludgeoning weapon its to step into them past their elbows.
@@someguy3861 leverage is the most important part on that, the closer you get to the break point the lighter you will be hit and can take the weapon when they try to recover, or retaliate with your defense.
Sacrificing yourself in the pursuit of knowledge. A true scholar
yea so glad he dint lopped his thumbs off lolol espically when he had the effin Saber out lol
I was waiting for a hospital cut scene then I seen him smacking tire n was like yuhhh
Odin approves
For the Science! :D
Like Professor Zei of the Ba Sing Se University staying behind in Wan Shi Tong's Library.
This does serve to illustrate the difference between a technique meant to be used on a regular basis and "Oh gods! I'm gonna die if I don't do something!"
This translates to a lot of modern "self defense" techniques (like gun disarms) that are taught to law enforcement and military at a very high level of training. Meant as a last-ditch life-saving action when you HAVE to do something.
Thanks for the video bro. Excellent content as always!
One thing I've found a bit odd in HEMA is how I've never heard anyone acknowledge how you own arms can potentially be used as shields in a desperate situation where you're being attacked and are either unarmed, or have a weapon like a dagger. Not only do we instinctively react to attacks by using our arms to protect ourselves, it makes complete sense to potentially sacrifice the function of an arm to stop that blow hitting you in the head. If someone attacks you with a sword and you're unarmed or have a dagger, the only way you're getting out of that is by running, or closing the distance. If you can't run, your only option might be to take a cut to the arm so you can have a chance of grappling. Even if you will be injured during that grapple, it's better than never getting into the grapple in the first place
One of the most famous Japanese schools of kenjutsu, the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, has an entire set of techniques meant for fighting unarmed vs an opponent armed with a sword called muto, meant to disarm the opponent. The funny thing about it is, it is just a desperation technique like you describe, with little chance of succeeding, and most forms of kenjutsu actually have some muto for training forms. However, the fame of the school, combined with word of their skill with the technique, meant that opponents that could recognize the technique would frequently choose not to swing and risk having their sword taken from them.
As they say in Chess: "The threat is stronger than the execution."
@@tommeakin1732 I mean if it cuts your arm off, or even half way there, I doubt anyone's gonna be able to do anything. Maybe you'd get 1 stab with a dagger or knife, but I highly doubt you'd be very effective at grappling afterwards.
I'd just think that doing something else would be far better, but I guess if you're backed that much into a corner, literally, that you can't move much at all, might as well try I guess.
If someone has a gun pointed at you and is 100% going to pull the trigger, the only bad option is doing nothing and accepting your fate.
The problem then is some wiseass is all "WOAH I GOTTA USE THIS KEWL TECHNEEK LOL I KNOW KRAV MUGGA!"
"Don't do this at home, I'm a professional idiot." Ah, something I said often when I performed as a fire eater and fire breather.
It should be YT's motto.
Reminds me of the Sam & Max cartoon. Something along the lines of "Remember, don't do this at home! Leave the gratuitous and comical cartoon slapstick to *professional* boneheads like us!"
Also, fire eating/breathing is a really cool performance. I might be a stranger on the internet, but I hope those experiences were good ones.
It's better to be a professional idiot than an idiotic professional
There's always the "I'm gonna die anyway if I don't" contingency
8:42
How quickly it went from "I dont want to hit any harder because it may cut my hands" to "I dont want to hit it any harder because it may get scratched up" is hilarious. Even the thinnest piece of leather makes a huge difference on the power you are comfortable striking with.
It's like having an additional layer of skin.
It's skin that's been toughened with the magic of piss and also isn't yours and doesn't feel pain.
@@snakepliska837 Because IT IS a additional layer of skin, leather is made of animal skin
@@civilprotectionunit8145 Indeed
Seeing your demonstration makes me wonder if the unarmoured fighters in the MSs are only unarmoured to show body mechanics and hand placement/grip without the visual impediment of the illustrated armour rather than as factual depictions of a fighting situation.
Hmm and it's very possible this was stated somewhere and has simply been lost to history, or in translation.
Most people probably trained without armor as well.
Good idea, I thought the same thing, but what body mechanics exactly are shown more advantageous than if the guy depicted was wearing armor? I think it illustrates the point that if you *opponent* is armored, you have to Mordhau him, especially if you're un-armored yourself. :D
Seems likely, yes. In unarmored fighting there is really no good reason to do this.
@@Schmidt54 By removing the armour, the reader would better be able to read the musculature of the drawn figure, see exactly where the fingers are positioned, how the head is positioned, &c. Those details tend to be obscured by the armour and would be useful for readers practicing the forms without a trainer. But it's only a hypothesis.
After your earlier half-swording video, I tried this bare-handed with a narrow, flattened diamond cross section longsword against a hanging tire. I hit pretty hard and it bit into the top layer of skin but didn't draw blood. (Although it did loosen the guard a bit.) Haven't tried it against harder targets myself, so thanks for doing this experiment! It's certainly not my favorite technique, but I think you've demonstrated that it is viable. Definitely gonna wear some gloves if I ever try it again :)
If it's a question of life or death, then you do what you think would work.
I would rather attack with pure hand to hand combat or with a knife - kicking, punching, slaps, knees and elbows and getting close for doing judo and jujitsu like movement dislocating and braking hands and arns and throwing around and slamming to the ground my opponent or find a strong stick than useing this technique. I think even useing a double nunchucks (especially metal ones) in combination with good hand to hand combat especially kicks or a three section staff or a long strong stiff stick would be better.
Yeah, don't go to war without hand protection!
@@adamkilroe9840 Yeah, draw your gun. lol
DON'T DO THIS AT HOME
"A bit hesitant to do this, because this is an expensive sword, but hey! It's an Albion and I trust Albion. Screw it." Probably best ad for Albion. :D
Albion is awesome I play it often!
Okay, I think I've figured out how the TH-cam sword channel ecosystem works now! Shad: basically just does, "being Shad," and says something loudly in his own personal...idiom. Then Matt Easton comes in diplomatically and talks sense from his years of experience as a HEMA instructor, historical consultant, and sword broker. Then Skall comes in a tries stuff out.
But Skall tries it out several years before anyone else mentions it. He's clearly a time-traveler.
@@robwalker4452 So Shad is Columbus, Matt is the scientific community of that time, and Skall is Leif Eriksson?
@@AnotherDuck no, Shad is an amateur without real knowledge.
@@Mbeluba He knows some stuff about castles, how to shoot a bow, and has more integrity than you?
@@AnotherDuck Interesting how you can judge his integrity from almost no information. also I wouldn't give shad much credit as a person generally.
"Don't do this at home! I'm a professional idiot!"
That's why I keep coming back. It's nice to be able to outsource at least some of my idiocy. It saves time, and fingers.
"He lost his legs in the war"
The dummy- "TIS BUT A SCRATCH!"
Beat me to it!
Laughed out loud
All right, we'll call it a draw.
The man! The myth! The legend! - Skall responds to the situation!
Responds to the "Context"!
Glad he stopped the Ukraine videos I like swords not propaganda
@@josephcontreras8359 I bet you eat that Russian propaganda right up though.
I have a quick note @ 12:43 (image): Note how the illustrator shows the un-armored fighter. The guy grips the sword way up, close to the hilt, at a place that can be assumed to be blunt (or less sharp; or like a Fehlschärfe or ricasso). He grips that part firmly with a closed grip. The other (left) hand seems to grip the sword not only by the flat side, but also more gentle (if that makes sense). That part of the blade would be definetly sharp. The whole posture also implies that most of the force will be applied via the right hand near to the hilt, which again can be assumed to be blunt. So the technique seems way more intricate than grabbing the sword by the blade and whacking away.
Question is: is it correct to assume that the lowest portion of the blade could be blunt, at least in some cases? No 100% answer of course, but sabres usually are like that, and it is known that Zweihänder do this. Since half-swording makes more sense with such a setup, too, and the fact that all strikes with the sword are made with the weak (upper half) of the blade, it actually makes sense.
Yes, this has always been typical. Especially in quality, hand made swords(please do not look to modern mass produced swords as evidence of anything) that display prominent distal taper, the profile is much thicker near the hilt. Even in swords with near parallel edges the spine is thicker, which precludes sharpening to the same degree as the "sweet spot" further out on the blade where the center of percussion, a harmonic node(if you think of the blade like a guitar or piano string it is easier to visualize this concept) on the blade would be. That sweet spot and the point are the only spots that actually need to be sharp. There is very little utility to sharpening beyond that area and would only add to the labour and time needed to finish a blade, at the cost of making it more fragile and prone to injuring the user if half swording techniques became necessary, like in closer quarters.
@@willrichtor I agree with basically everything you said, I'd only add that one of the strengths of a sword is that it's challenging for an opponent to control as it's difficult and risky to grab a blade. We do see blade grabbing techniques in the treatises so there would be reason to keep most of the blade as sharp as is practical to make that more of an issue for an opponent. However I can still imagine many people only sharpening half the blade for that extra flexibility
I think you're on to something there. It makes perfect sense that this technique would be far more involved than simply, swap ends and haul off. I could see it a bit more like half swording, close in, short, accurate, jab like strikes, ready to switch to a point centric attack at the slightest opportunity.
Most of these techniques have way more going on than one may first assume. For example I've been deconstructing and examining the "ox guard" and strikes from that position. There's a lot going on there, both in the biomechanics and in the leverage being applied to the weapon at various stages.
All that said, we must all remember that there's so much lost, so much that was never preserved, and such a gulf of time and disconnect from the actual use of these weapons, that most of our questions will remain such.
@@kavemanthewoodbutcher Exactly. People were using such weapons for such a long time and professionaly. They had a lot of experience, their lives literally depended on handling weapons.
What is really annoying, so to speak, is that they never were able to pass down the knowledge. The problem with martial arts is that you cannot leanr them by reading a book. Even today's books or videos cannot imbue someone with the knowledge of using it by oneself, it has to be taught by a person. Such lineages are lost, so we have to start from scratch. From my experience with the sword, it has a lot in common with what we call today "inner martial arts" that rely a lot on biomechanics and physical rules and technique rather than applying strength, the sword is a complicated and intricate weapon. Also the different schools of sword fencing are (end HEMA elitists will burn me alive for that) of the same essence. Doesn't matter if you have 4 guards or 24, in the end the same "basic" principles apply, and variations and deviations are just minute details that boil down to something I'd like to call personal preference, i.e. one fighter just handles one thing better, the other has a knack for another.
Now, technically the basic strikes are extremely intricate if executed correctly. The more wild techniques like Mordhau are very specialized techniques and intricate, too. Just like a Oberhau is something not easy to do correctly despite the fact that it only seems to be "you take sword and swing it from above", other techniques ought to be intricate, too.
And that still does not include the weapons. The fact alone that we have endless types of swords that differ implies that there was a lot going on we still don't understand, thankfully knowledgable people like Peter Johnsson really push forward new ideas rather than pure scholarship.
Interesting point, although it seems Talhoffer's depiction with the hand way up near the hilt is unusual in that regard. Most images show both hands much further away from the guard, and sometimes pretty close to the point. Either way, gloves / gauntlets are reasonable to assume for pretty much every instance of this technique, and they make it so much safer.
Also note that my left hand was mostly the one getting cut, due to the way impact shock travels through the blade. Even in Talhoffer's image that would still be an issue in case of a very sharp edge and bare hands (which again is unlikely).
I see Skall is much more careful about handling the sword here than in the original video, now that's character progression.
Less condescending too. He mellowed out and not afraid to be wrong anymore.
Thank you for doing these tests. It's extremely unlikely the plate from Hans Talhoffer shown at 12:45 is meant to show an unarmored technique. It's a continuation from the previous plate that depicts a formal duel with both sides in full armor with set weapons. This murder strike comes as a technique to use after throwing the spear. Also note the spiked guard & pommel, as well the fact that they're still fighting within a closed ring. It's not some self-defense scenario. The section continues with both fighters unarmored but still using armored techniques, as seen elsewhere in Talhoffer.
As far as I know, Johannes Lecküchner's messer manual is the only place the murder strike appears in a genuinely unarmored context, though you could argue it's for sparring or tournament with entirely blunt weapons. Philippo di Vadi (& Fiore de'i Liberi, as this video notes) wrote that sword for fighting in armor should only be sharpened near the point. So it's quite probable the murder strike assumes a mostly blunt blade. However, one curious part is that Paulus Hector Mair's manual, based on earlier works, shows & instructs putting a hand right near the sword's tip for a murder strike in a few places. Of course, those blades could be estoc style & not have a sharp edge at all. In any case, I don't see much point to fully sharpen a sword designed for a duel in full harness.
Finally, Talhoffer does show a jab with the pommel while having both hands on the blade.
Yes, it does seem unlikely that Talhoffer's depiction is meant to show an actually unarmored fighter against an armored one in a formal duel. Unless it's supposed to be a way to level the playing field if one if much more skilled than the other, but I doubt it.
Specialized anti-armor swords tend to have a fairly thick diamond cross-section and wouldn't be terribly sharp, so they would be much safer to use like this. Either way, a good pair of gloves allows you to half-sword and murder stroke with almost any blade.
I can't get swords; I'm from Mexico and not that wealthy. Tried this a few times with a very sharpened machete, and it went surprisingly well using a bit of force (certainly enough to hurt people). Using full force? Yeah, i put on some thick leather gloves for that and it also went ok. Rather use a hammer if i want to smack something tho
If that is what you have access to I would focus on falchion messer techniques and grappling.
@@gottfriedosterbach3907 i wasn't really trying to practice or get better at HEMA; was just messing around and testing the murder stroke with the most sword-like thing i own. Thanks for the advice either away, maybe I'll give the messer techniques a try.
Could you weld a couple machetes together?
*I know that sounds derp, but creativity is fun. Also, machetes in modern metals are amazing tools. The 18-24” blades are very useful today. Like how sniper rifles are specialized and close quarters/mid range is the main force.
@@addictedtochocolate920 the main risk with using a machete for a mordhau is the fact that it's a curved blade (probably), very dangerous to grab a curved blade.
@@It-b-Blair i have indeed modified them for different purposes and work, mostly to save money. One broke not so long ago, but i was able to turn it into a smaller version perfect for precision cuts and narrow spaces. We Mexicans love to invent homemade tools instead of spending money; sometimes it goes really well, and sometimes... Yup, spending that money was actually not a bad idea.
Great Test Skall !!!
Your honesty is appreciated as always, Skall. Very interesting just how much blade geometry comes into play yet again. Thank you for settling suspicions which I cannot currently test myself.
Also, in a battle, the adrenaline would not only block most minor pains, but also make you less hesitant to hit hard with or without gloves if you're in a do-or-die situation.
Impressive work, Skal. :0
Long story short: Matt and you are totally right. It is a possible tactic, but first it hurts the bare hand, second a mace has a better grip and third it can damage the sword. With gloves the first point vanishes, while the other two remain. So maces and polearms are the way to go, I conclude.
This conclusion lines up with my own testing with blunt re-enactment swords. Mordhaus "work" but are by far not the "game changers" there name implies. It's almost false advertising. XD
A dedicated mace or warpick is absolutely better, but if you're in battle against a beefy dude in plate and silly you left the bugger at home, definitely better than trying to wack him with the blade. I would absolutely rather have an actual mace though
Yes, blunt impact weapons are obviously the better choice. This is just an improvised solution for dealing with armor when you only have a sword.
Unfortunately magic doesn't exist so you're not able to transform your sword into a mace, which is why this exists. And presumably, if you're unarmored then you're going to go with halfswording instead of mordhau.
TBH, I feel that this goes more into establishing straight, double edged swords as the 'good enough' weapon. They're decent at thrusting (just not as good as spears), they're decent at slashing (but not as good as curved blades), and they're decent at bludgeoning (but not as good as a hammer). Their might not be an issue with damaging the sword with a better quality sword (he did swing with his 'beater sword'), but I don't blame Skallagrim for not wanting to risk his good swords for testing it out.
I'd conclude, that not going with something as the only true solution is the way to go in this case.
There's a reason so many different weapons exist and why they were used simultaneously, so the sword is as much "the way to go" as a polearm, a mace or any other weapon.
And don't forget, this technique was most likely a last resort, if you really couldn't penetrate the armor or hit the weak parts in any other way, or if you had any other trouble with your opponent. And in those situations, you didn't think "oh man, I forgot my axe/mace/warhammer/whatever at home, wish I had them with me", the only thing going through your head was most likely "oh shit oh fuck oh shit oh fuck i don't wanna die", so it was just really good to have a technique at the ready, instead of having to improvise. And this technique wasn't used to finish off your enemy, it's more to get your enemy off balance, disorientate him, force him to step back. As long as you can do any of this, you can still finish your opponent off with the little, sharp pointy part of your sword.
I'm leaving a comment to end the youtube algorithm rightly!! Also thank you so much for your demonstration. I always really like when someone actually tests something. I'm also glad you didn't get hurt.
I love your content every time I watch. You are the reason I am doing hema and training with blades. I enjoy it very much and can feel my body becoming more fit
Great video. I always appreciate your giving context from the historical manuals and likelihood of use in given situations!
The main advantage I see in using the Mordhau vs Trying to stab gaps while half-swording (which is what Matt suggested as superior) is that you can threathen to damage your opponent in one tempo, whereas with half-swording you would ideally close in then aim at a gap.
And I guess it may very well be the case that this technique was indeed suposed to be only used with gloves/gauntlets, or as a complete last resort, when you're probably going to die anyway and there is no point necessarily to try to preserve your hands.
The point is regardless of how much power you put into hitting someone in a metal helmet with a sword, it is not gonna be a disabling hit.
Let's assume you get a flinch out of the enemy, you by the time you recover and return to a normal grip, enemy also recover from the flinch. You accomplished nothing. Rushing in with a flying pommel at least follow up the flinch with some actual attack.
All those assuming enemy not responding to the strike, which they will. It is all fine and dandy if the enemy only has a helmet, but what if the enemy has even just a mail arm?
Sure, their bone might be cracked from the impact, but the opponent now has all the time in the world to stab you after your failed strike.
According to my own testing with blunt weapons in my re-enactment club the Mordhau works, but it is by far less effective than any other technique. If you are hit by it, it hurts indeed. But only if. Blocking Mordhau is "easier" than avoiding stabs, especially when both combatants wear armor and helmet, because, despite the helmet, the Mordhau telegraphs a lot. You see it coming. Seeing a stab through a helmet's slit is much harder.
By the way: half swording is _much quicker_ than a Mordhau. The Mordhau can by seen "miles away" and changing the swords direction to faint is difficult due to the lack of grip and balance. Halfswording combines the benefits of lever and mass a sword offers with the "unpredictable speed" of a dagger. ;D
I would rather attack with pure hand to hand combat or with a knife - kicking, punching, slaps, knees and elbows and getting close for doing judo and jujitsu like movement dislocating and braking hands and arns and throwing around and slamming to the ground my opponent or find a strong stick than useing this technique. I think even useing a double nunchucks (especially metal ones) in combination with good hand to hand combat especially kicks or a three section staff or a long strong stiff stick would be better.
Hitting an armoured opponent with the sharp pointed end of a balanced sword is simply not good enough. You literally can't cut through the armour and the swords lack of weight won't hinder an opponent at all. More then likely your wearing armour, also, so the same applies to you.
I think the end goal of the mordhau is to knock your opponent out or down so you could come in and try to do a lethal blow while they are recovering having been hit by the heavier end of the sword. I am certain that many melees between 2 armoured opponents resulted in wrestling and if you can potentially knock your opponent down your halfway towards winning.
While many European swords are designed for thrusting, most lacked the rigidity and refined points of Polarms meaning stabing with a sword is only plausible when specifically aiming for the Gaps, which is where halfswording would come into play.
I think the mordhau would be a good way to reengage if someone backs off while you're half swording. The transition from halfsword to mordhau is pretty easy. They back off, you switch grip and swing at them to reengage, forcing them to cover so you can get back in to half swording.
You mentioned special (judicial) types of swords, but outside of those wouldn't an estoc be the obvious candidate: it negates the cutting your hand -problem even without gloves, and if you prefer swords but are going to be facing opponents wearing armor then that's what you should have brought in the first place.
edit: to clarify, I'm thinking of battlefield here, not an out of the blue self defence situation.
Your original video on this is what got me to watch your channel all these years. It's interesting to see you revisit this all these years later.
"He lost his legs in a war."
"It's a flesh wound!"
In medieval times battles where fought for prolonged periods of time. Knights know how sharp their blade is, and it's very common for a blade to become dull during battle. At some point if you can't grab a new weapon, flipping it into a battle hammer/axe is literally more useful, and it won't cut your hands because again you dulled your blade in the flesh, and armor of multiple targets.
When I saw Matt's video, one of my first thoughts was "you need to be either dumb or Skallagrim to try this out". Thanks man, I love you.
Skall -- Very interesting, well-demonstrated, & thorough exploration of the murder-stroke.
Big fan here brother.
Best to you & your loved-ones.
I remember seeing your previous video on this subject before and was wowed, it's great to see you touch up on it again!
Great video! Now, I would really like to see the strike with the flat or edge in direct comparison and with a sword with a more ball-like pommel (I think this is a problem in this test). After seeing Matt's video I was thinking, that this may be the way you do it - particularly without gloves. In several images it also looks like the strike goes to the side of the head, which would make sense as the helmet may be weaker there than on the top, the disorientation from the sidewards movement of the head may also be a consideration. Also, the flex of the blade could work to your advantage, transferring the force into the target. Just some thoughts...
The difference in confidence when the gloves come one is very noticeable. 😄
Thanks for always testing stuff
Very well made video. I especially enjoyed the historical documents and context that you included.
I like how it went from 'I don't want to do this harder because I might hurt my hands' without the gloves to 'I don't want to do this harder because I might damage my sword' with them.
Most people who are interested in historical arms love the idea of a master swordsman unexpectedly flipping a sword around and smashing his opponent with the hilt.
Of course we also Imagine a disembodied voice saying the word
*Fatality*
great vid skal. really good stuff
Amazing informative, thx for putting yourself on the line for historical research
But in a life or death scenario..? If it came down to a duel to the death and they were turtling for gaps in armor, I'm sure adrenaline and survival instincts would throw "big hand cut fear" out the window for "i get to live" stitch it up and then there'd be some battle scars to tell the younglings in the great hall around a fire.
And if you own a sword, losing the use of your hands probably won't kill you.
I work with modern cut resistant gloves as part of my job, and the ones I use are tough enough that your hands would be severely injured by the blunt force trauma long before the glove would get cut the historical equivalent would probably be fairly similar albiet a bit more rust prone.
Absolutely awesome skal. I love this kinda videos
Nice follow-up to Matt's video! Well done!
I tried this after your first video, years ago. It didn't work horribly poorly with more oblique blade angles, even if fairly sharp.
Did not work well with the machete I use nearly daily and keep extremely sharp.
I only used bare hands, though, against logs.
As soon as Matt came out with the video I knew Skall's gonna have a say or two, as someone who's tested it before with a sharp sword.
A few TH-camrs will. Shad if he was not on his current series about video game animation would for sure. If he did not already comment on the Murder stroke.
Great video! Thank you for making it.
Wow that quick clip from 2014 brought back memories and the realization that I've been following you for a long, long time...
Blade geometry means a lot in this case. I have done demonstrations for quite a few years, and with a fairly narrow longsword with a diamond square section (~5x30mm 10 cm from the tip) theres enough thickness to get a good enoug grip to really whack away. With a wide flat blade the chance of getting cut is a LOT higher. Anyway its one of the "oh shit" tactics that is useable in special circumstances, and unless you have a good idea of what you are doing (and hopefully someone to help in case of an accident) you should not try it.
You'll need at least leather gloves in case you encounter a cockatrice.
Yesss, I was hoping for this!
It's a good thing you mentioned the spiked guards on some of those dueling swords as *well* as the spiked pommels, because that validates an idea I had for *other* ways the guard could be made into something more viable to smash into a helmet or *other* armor piece as well as that; and you might find one of them particularly interesting, considering you once made a video on a hypothetical real life example.
First, if the guard is two narrow rods ending in a flat face, you could shape them into small proper *hammer* heads, complete with *teeth* or a *tusk* on the faces to better bite into the armor.
Second, if the guard instead tapers out to a partially flattened thing, like on the sword you did *most* of your demonstration with, the ends could be sharpened into proper *axe* heads; this one's the more interesting one in my opinion because it's a way to make a real life example of a Monster Hunter switch-axe that's a *single, solid* piece, and thus, is far more *durable* than the one we see in Monster Hunter would be.
And *on* that note, I *do* really think you should consider giving the Warscissors idea a fair chance; they'd really just be a pair of double-edged cutting swords (the Shotel being a real life example of a double-edged cutting sword) that'd screw together at say, the top of the guard, or the Ricasso, and could be *unscrewed* to use *separately* if need be. That's why I'm absolutely *certain* that they *could* in fact work, and even be effective against *fabric* armor, as'd be appropriate for a pair of scissors.
Be interesting to see testing of a proper sword / pick hybrid.
sword with a pick on the pommel as part the guard could work. would be a potential pain to wear at the belt...but do able.
Hell yeah! The Mordhau grip was the whole original idea behind the making of the game Mordhau.
Holding the sword by the blade? Laughable. Ridiculous...
until Skallagrim shows up to actually do it! You've solidly proven the point! It's possible and feasible especially with gloves.
I've played Mordhau a lot, as I'm sure many other fans of this channel probably have, and it's awesome to see the Mordhau grip actually done. Sharing this on the Mordhau discord I'm sure a lot of people there would like to see it!
Yet damaging the blade to not be useable is also dumb. But whateves.
@@pride2184 if you were going to die, I doubt you would care about damaging your sword.
amazing video skall!
Awesome! Can’t wait to try this when I get home!
I believe it's really underappreciated that the manuals might not always be presenting actual fighting circumstances, and the whole Mordhau situation would historically be far more relevant in a situation where two armoured opponents would encounter each other; whether the two are depicted wearing armour or not might actually not reflect such a reality, for various reasons.
So the prospect of two armoured opponents facing each other, halfswording and potentially switching to a Mordhau if opportune is a much more likely scenario than people realize, especially compared to "man gripping a sharp blade with bare hands."
Was it the norm? Depends, I guess. If you had to have a swordfight, it would just be somewhat more likely. In wartime circumstances, I am almost certain that warhammers, maces and even polearms would had got to either before it got to a Mordhau.
Seeing you hit that gallowglass sword hurt me emotionally
I said the same thing. Not seeing nearly enough Gallowglass love in these comments.
Good work Skall!
Great video. I enjoy your content a lot.
As far as damage to sword goes back when this would have been done they would be less concerned with that. The sword was a tool. Also using it this way your getting to the point of last ditch effort emergency etc so you would be less concerned about breaking your sword
That was what I thought. this technique is not a go to. its one you use in case of emergency and they teach so you can use as safely as you can when it is used.
while I generally agree there are a few points here, 1st swords weren't just tools, they were also status symbols, and besides, a workman isn't going to damage his tools if he can avoid it, especially if they can't be readily replaced or repaired. that said, historically repairing a sword would absolutely have been an option since there would almost certainly be someone locally who could do it, whereas now you are unlikely to find anyone who would be able to repair a sword or be willing to do it for less than a new and high end sword would cost.
Tbf, he also pointed that out cuz he doesn't wanna destroy his sword lol
the sword was a very expensive tool and wasn't used for everyday combat. professionals would quite normally fight with something cheaper and more robust like a mace.
@@yamiyomizuki um one wrong. Making swords and repairing em you would need to remake the entire thing so it doesnt have structural damage. Cold bending create fractures reheating would just expand said fracture causinh them to grow. Two you can find easier anyone in the world and they can reforge that blare. Back in the day of middle ages not like blacksmiths were educated or had the skills of making blades when most the time they Making nails, horseshoes, daily farming apparatus. Making a blade is hard and takes time alot ot time and skill. You are kinda delusional on repairing a blade isnt heat up and rebend when you already ruined that blade.
Rotfl, 😂
"Don't do it at home. I am a professional idiot."
That was an attempt on my life by making me over laughing.
super interesting video! also that first sword is a really beautiful weapon, the sharpness was pretty impressive. the 'don't do this at home' is important :Dddd
Thank you Skallagrim for making these guides for us to follow!
The scabbard bit makes me wanna make a d&d paladin with a sword with a heavy pommel and a metal scabbard that straps down the sword that would be called "bonebreaker" much to the confusion of everyone until we fight skeletons
A slash to the beast!
The boost in confidence from the gloves is very noticeable, the different reaction of the different targets is again very telling.
Very good educational video sir 👍.
If someone was doing that to you, could you not sidestep a little and then try to grab the handle on the backswing after making them miss (or taking a glancing hit).
Not to make it sound easy, although compared to most things involving a person swinging a sword at your face, that seems a fairly doable technique.
Not an expert but I think the murder stroke comes as the final blow to the head after you've beaten the opponent down
@@Jollyroger117 That or from behind or as surprise attack.
@@Jollyroger117 I'm also no expert, but if you've beaten them down then you would have time to find a gap in their armour for the point of the blade surely? The way Skall presents it here involves switching grip quickly and discussing whether it could be defended against.
The way I see it is that if fighting someone in armour, the murder stroke would be most useful to get some concussive damage in to slow them down and open up other opportunities, e.g. to grapple them and get a blade into their armour. Using a relatively light implement like a sword to bludgeon armour seems unlikely as a kill shot. If behind them, perhaps it could be a knockout blow but even that seems very unreliable (and in that situation I'd be thinking of grabbing their head and sticking the point in their neck).
@@ApothecaryTerry hmmmm I see what your saying.
I love looking at old fighting manuals and trying to find out how they would use the more out there moves.
For instance could the murder stroke pommel throw be the ultimate combo! Lol
@@Jollyroger117 I wonder if you could loosen the pommel and set it up so that you could murder stroke but from a distance so it catapults the pommel and ends them rightly! Tricky during combat, but well worth the memes 😆
Skall: 2:16 I'm a Professional Idiot
Me: I know the Feeling 🤪
I was litterly working on a sword_axe design with an axe as a crossguard and thinking about the use of it , and my man decided to make the exact useful video the next day ! Thanks !!
Great video. Your first video on the subject was what got me subscribed to you and I definitely like this revisiting video. From the treatises I've seen it seems the murderstroke wasn't a fixed grip. In other words you need to kill someone in armor you immediately flip your your sword around and go clubbing. You would hold it in another way (usually half swording) and then transition into a murderstroke to strike. The youtubers Pursuing the Knightly Arts has a great video of actual techniques used from a treatises for both armored opponents. I don't remember the name but its the one that has the end them rightly technique in it.
You gotta take in consideration that these guys were fighting for their lifes, the adrenaline in their bodys. No little cuts in the hand was gonna stop them
I'm sure some also had some gloves
They were also wearing plate armor, so I think they'd be fine.
Yes, although blood causing the hand to be slippery would still be a problem. Gloves should be standard though and make a big difference.
I knew when I saw the video from Matt that you were gonna do a demonstration. Good job, Skal. Salute!
Woo! Glad to see it, glad to see you're keeping it safe and sane.
Yay, been waiting to see this!
Toward the end talking about transitioning from a traditional grip to a halfswording grip, Ringeck describes a parry play where you parry an incoming strike, riposte with a zwerchau, if the zwerch is parried, transition to halfsword and thrust, and if the halfsword is parried, use the momentum to strike around with the pommel. So it is talked about doing that "on the fly" and not just already from a halfsword grip.
This is why I like yours, and Shad’s channels. You both don’t just show what you’re talking about, but you try and take all your knowledge and expertise and try and understand how people could accomplish whatever you’re trying to show. Very scientific and very fun to watch. Keep up the good work man. Sorry about your algorithm woes.
I remember from an image series about armor someone mentioned that during a show fight they did a mordhau for it, they only did a weak strike and they receiving guys helmet was well padded but he still reported seeing stars for a few seconds and the compression on his neck was so brutal they had to pause for a bit.
Also as a note, there they did it where they essentially grabbed the sword so the "flat" of it would hit not the side, that may be a bit more friendly on the hands as well.
Great video skall
Great video!
This made me want to play mordhau again, thank you! I haven't played in so long, the duels are so good lol
Skal our professional idiot thank you for all of your hard work with these Videos! I wouldn't have started with HEMA If I hadn't begun watching your work. You reignited my passion for Knights and Vikings from when I was a small boy. I found many new friends thanks to you and I never look back in regret from this decision. Even with the strange looks I can get from rambling about my new passion. So thank you again my friend and If you are ever in Germany hit me up.😁
Damn you are insane!! I didn't think you would actually do it with bare hands :o
16:55 is why I love Fiore, because he teaches every dirty, low down nasty technique to win a fight.
A sharp hand guard used for gouching is something that would be interesting to test. Since the blade can be thrust while the inside the sheath can be smooth to still maintain function.
wait you have a NEW END THEM RIGHTLY SHIRT?!?!?! My old one is so faded, I've been needing a replacement! WOO HOOO!!!!
Love when you bring out that m4d messer. I'm still 5 months out on mine
Great work Skallagrim 👍👍
4:39 LMAO good luck Skall!
I appreciate the efford you put into these videos to the fullest. But if I speak for me personally, I'm totally fine with you, only using beater swords for this.
I love your albion swords. They are gorgeous. You don't have to risk them Skal.
But of course: You do you. Nice video! Thank you for your efford!
Good video
If you or someone else commissioned a spiked guard/pommel sword made for murder strokes, I think that would be a blast to test!
I referenced the 2014 video a bit ago- glad to see this revisited :)
That is true dedication!
Well another entertaining video.....food for thought how sharp would a sword be after a long hard day of fighting ? I kinda always figgured the murderstroke was a" well my weapons busted up might as well beat them with what's left of my sword "
Try putting one hand on the node of no vibration on the blade. Also, I think this is a technique best used with swords already geared towards fighting armored foes, ie. ones that have stiff and narrow blades, like XVII's or estocs.
Great revisit. Being unarmored, it will work if you need to protect yourself quickly but better if you have gloves. I guess if you damage your sword too much in the process you can take there's afterward.