But sometimes, if it’s done well, the fact that the audience doesn’t understand a character’s motivation can help to keep the audience engaged, because it’s one of the things the audience is trying to understand and is anticipating will be revealed.
...............no. Your example is STILL the one of "a strong character motivation". This does NOT depend of the audience's knowledge at ALL points of the story; of COURSE it is only tested at the END. BUT. Since we're here, let us talk about the misunderstanding of the "Mystery Box": the idea here is that, while something MAY be hidden from the *audience* - inside the "mystery box" - the AUTHOR is always fully, entirely, absolutely and COMPLETELY aware of what's INSIDE the box. So while the character motivation CAN be vague and hidden away from the audience to keep THEM guessing until the last moment; it must ALWAYS be solid and strong to both the character AND the writer. If this is the case, the reveleation of it at the end causes the "Omg of COURSE, NOW it all makes SENSE!" feeling in the audience. Conversely, if you the author, and the character themselves, become aware of the motivation ONLY towards the end, you have an audience counting your plot holes. Like in the MOST Holywood sequels today which haven't been planned out and have the plot and the characters meandering. Now, the meandering isn't a bad thing ALWAYS. My favourite example is the movie Una: the protagonist HAS no clear motivation at all. She just wants... something. Yes, but that's the point, she is so damaged, her JOURNEY is to find her motivation.
@@codinghusky5196 I think you’re actually agreeing with me. I didn’t say the character doesn’t have a strong motivation; I said the audience doesn’t know what it is, and they keep watching to find out. So we’re on the same page.
Call me the antagonist if you wish but, she doesn't actually answer the question, which is essentially how do you know a characters goal or motivation is strong enough? The answer IMO is this: Does it elicit an emotional response from you? Yes or no? if so how strong is that emotion, is there a way to make it stronger? Make the goal more urgent, make the goal the seemingly undeniable solution to absolve the emotional conflict and then shatter their expectations... Easier said than done.
Well that may not always be the case. Plenty of goals don't give off that emotional response until the story continues and we see how much the character has lost or sacrificed, which shows us how important it is.
You should watch the full interview with Naomi Beaty on the FIlm Courage channel. She has a lot more helpful information to share. This is just a little snippet.
...I agree with your first statement; NOT the second. "Emotional response" is something individual and difficult to measure. I'd put it differently: "can a person who's experienced your story once put the character's goals into a single, short coherent sentence without thinking too much about it". If they can, it means a) the goal was clearly and coherently expressed and b) it impressed them enough for them to have fully percieved it.
Helpful video, best one yet! I think the “method” used by the character in achieving what they want is often overlooked. A direct method, can also get tested in pursuit of that goal. This one helped me! :)
Should a protagonist have a definite and bigger enough goal right from the start? Can’t it be that she is thrown into some challenging situation and their goal is to overcome that greater challenge? But, once she achieves her first goal, another interconnected challenge emerges for it- and this become her second goal. It’s like one challenge emerging from another, even of different nature but very compelling for the protagonist and people around her? Why there has to be a single and such a overwhelming goal essentially that actually dictates the character though out a plot? Why it should always be a search of particular lost ark?
Ndumiso Msomi I thought of the movie 'The Lunchbox' idk if the characters in the movie can be said to be having 'strong goals'! It's a really interesting watch! The two protagonists just happen to cross paths and as far as I can say, they do not have any goals as such they're just living their lives but it gets really interesting!
Film Courage Yes it does! Currently in process for a short action film and all of your videos really help for filmmaking skills. I’m also reading Syd Field and other filmmaking/scriptwriting books to improve myself. This channel is gold and I want to thank you, and your team if that is the case, for the great content!
Help pls ! What is a good motive to be a hero other than "i want to save people because is the right thing to do" , "i want to be a hero to be the best or i want to be a stronger" , "i want to see people smile" ?
What about a James Bond character? His goal is to stop the bad guy. The bad guy is really causing everything to happen, but the James Bond character is active in stopping the bad guy. Is it enough of a goal to stop the bad guy? Is this a goal?
@@alexjwebabou I have a story where the protagonist is seen as a passive character, but they're just 13 years old. The main character that drives the story is the villian, but Ipeople tell me the protagonist, kid, needs to be more active. It will make the story more interesting if the kid tries to be more aggressive? This is what I think they're telling me and, I think, it makes sense. You can't just have a passive protagonist that gets acted upon?
@@icecat2009 well, the classic counter-example is Harry Potter who is passive most of the time, but there's a mystery surrounding him that makes up for that. Also, teens are not children, they are usually very active and have all sorts of issues. If there's a villain, how does the kid confront them? When acted upon, the kid might fight back (not necessarily openly)...
@@alexjwebabou What do you think about a Manchurian Candidate character? Isn't this type of character somewhat passive? If you ever watched the Manchurianchan Candidate with Ray Donovan, you see he's kinda passive with a lot of mystery, but he's not always that way.
@@icecat2009 I haven't seen it, but i read about it. i think when it's clear that there's some big mystery/conspiracy involved, the main character is an audience surrogate. or someone they follow to solve the mystery. the author can get away with letting things happen to the MC, since there's a promise of something bigger.
I don't think a weak goal kills a story. a weak goal can be very important to the character, but if the writer cannot make the audience understand what the goal means to the character then it fails.
I'd say the audience caring is more of a character issue than a motivation issue. If the audience cares for a character, they will care about what is important to the character, even if it's just a "small" goal like cooking the perfect meal. It has to be made clear why the goal is important to the character, though - Emotionally high stakes
@@nero9248 i like your point about the "small" goal that we emotionally care about - much more satisfying achievement to witness than showy goal with zero fks given. Do any other examples come to mind? I am a lot more character driven that plot driven and the notion of pat/fixed formulas for storytelling bore me before i've even begun, it feels too contrived and predictable
I've had a hard time learning to up the stakes. My story's gone from wanting to find a cure for a little girl to having to save the whole world. How do i up the stakes without going so far? How do i make it important to the reader? (I'm working a novel)
HELP ME!!! Ok, so I write books and my MC's motive is satisfied half-way through. I don't want her to be dragged along but don't know why she would ever stick around otherwise... HELP PLZ!!!
Common Option - Understand the characters Wants & Needs (go look it up, plenty of references on that), the characters have completed their wants, but that's not emotionally fulfilling. The Need is what will complete them on a subconscious level, they may not even be aware or what it is. Uncommon option - Their motivation evolves, in art we have a saying where true mastery is impossible. You can only reach the level above you, once you reach that level you'll find a new hidden level, every new level of mastery will reveal how much you don't know. Structural option - if you're in the middle you should be employing the second act twist, where an unforeseen event happens that makes the character change their tactics. IE the second Star Wars movie, Luke sets off to defeat Darth Vader to find out the twist that Vader is his father, thus changing Luke's tactics in the third movie. maybe look into that. If I could make a recommendation for a great reference, watch Venture Bros, (seasons 1 is pretty weak) the characters regularly go through life changing events that would end any other character, but the show always finds a way to evolve them yet not fundamentally change them.
Then it sounds like you are talking about the inner journey rather than the outer journey. Michael Hague has a lot of good info on this. Try this: th-cam.com/video/5MFW-a3AURA/w-d-xo.html
I believe a good guide for a strong goal is to ask yourself, what would make you travel around the world fervently to reach that goal. When you got that. Try to reinvent that into your character. And his or her want will be strong and relatable. Then check other people. For instance, some people are hardcore introvert and whatever might take you to travel and reach your goal might not be enough for them, as they may need some more persuasion to take the step. So try to think as them and ask yourself again. What would make me voluntarly travel into the unknown? From there on you can think of a backstory to give that voluntary jump-up more sense.
Why this channel doesn’t have 10 million subscribers , this channel is more than a film school
it is a school!! and extremely valuable to us who are not in traditional school
Most people are interested in the final product rather than see or hear the hows...
But sometimes, if it’s done well, the fact that the audience doesn’t understand a character’s motivation can help to keep the audience engaged, because it’s one of the things the audience is trying to understand and is anticipating will be revealed.
i.e., motive becomes a mystery that the audience wants to solve, thus subconsciously pulling them into the story further
...............no. Your example is STILL the one of "a strong character motivation". This does NOT depend of the audience's knowledge at ALL points of the story; of COURSE it is only tested at the END.
BUT.
Since we're here, let us talk about the misunderstanding of the "Mystery Box": the idea here is that, while something MAY be hidden from the *audience* - inside the "mystery box" - the AUTHOR is always fully, entirely, absolutely and COMPLETELY aware of what's INSIDE the box. So while the character motivation CAN be vague and hidden away from the audience to keep THEM guessing until the last moment; it must ALWAYS be solid and strong to both the character AND the writer.
If this is the case, the reveleation of it at the end causes the "Omg of COURSE, NOW it all makes SENSE!" feeling in the audience. Conversely, if you the author, and the character themselves, become aware of the motivation ONLY towards the end, you have an audience counting your plot holes. Like in the MOST Holywood sequels today which haven't been planned out and have the plot and the characters meandering.
Now, the meandering isn't a bad thing ALWAYS. My favourite example is the movie Una: the protagonist HAS no clear motivation at all. She just wants... something. Yes, but that's the point, she is so damaged, her JOURNEY is to find her motivation.
@@codinghusky5196 I think you’re actually agreeing with me. I didn’t say the character doesn’t have a strong motivation; I said the audience doesn’t know what it is, and they keep watching to find out. So we’re on the same page.
I disagree
@@codinghusky5196 I love your post, thank you!
I think a character's goal needs to be coherent enough. Strength of goal and strength of pursuit is where character development lives. Cheers!
This video just helped me fix something that's been bugging me about my manuscript for several weeks. HUGE thanks 😊
Glad it helped!
Call me the antagonist if you wish but, she doesn't actually answer the question, which is essentially how do you know a characters goal or motivation is strong enough? The answer IMO is this: Does it elicit an emotional response from you? Yes or no? if so how strong is that emotion, is there a way to make it stronger? Make the goal more urgent, make the goal the seemingly undeniable solution to absolve the emotional conflict and then shatter their expectations... Easier said than done.
Well that may not always be the case. Plenty of goals don't give off that emotional response until the story continues and we see how much the character has lost or sacrificed, which shows us how important it is.
You should watch the full interview with Naomi Beaty on the FIlm Courage channel. She has a lot more helpful information to share. This is just a little snippet.
...I agree with your first statement; NOT the second. "Emotional response" is something individual and difficult to measure.
I'd put it differently: "can a person who's experienced your story once put the character's goals into a single, short coherent sentence without thinking too much about it".
If they can, it means a) the goal was clearly and coherently expressed and b) it impressed them enough for them to have fully percieved it.
Helpful video, best one yet! I think the “method” used by the character in achieving what they want is often overlooked. A direct method, can also get tested in pursuit of that goal. This one helped me! :)
a good and worthwhile conversation. Stay safe, wash your hands ;)
Should a protagonist have a definite and bigger enough goal right from the start? Can’t it be that she is thrown into some challenging situation and their goal is to overcome that greater challenge? But, once she achieves her first goal, another interconnected challenge emerges for it- and this become her second goal. It’s like one challenge emerging from another, even of different nature but very compelling for the protagonist and people around her? Why there has to be a single and such a overwhelming goal essentially that actually dictates the character though out a plot? Why it should always be a search of particular lost ark?
That's brilliant!
Bingo!
Yes it does help me with my current script thank you!
Is a strong goal important for a good movie/script? Sometimes the plot just flows unexpectedly which can itself lead to an interesting story!
Mmh..interesting. Can you please give an example.
It all depends on the definition of a strong Goal, and how bad do you need to meet it.
Ndumiso Msomi I thought of the movie 'The Lunchbox' idk if the characters in the movie can be said to be having 'strong goals'! It's a really interesting watch! The two protagonists just happen to cross paths and as far as I can say, they do not have any goals as such they're just living their lives but it gets really interesting!
Oooh I see. So maybe sometimes a film can have strong and compelling characters and not so strong goals and yet still work.
@@punitkk7696 The Lunchbox was a good movie.
Does this help you with your current script?
Film Courage Yes it does! Currently in process for a short action film and all of your videos really help for filmmaking skills. I’m also reading Syd Field and other filmmaking/scriptwriting books to improve myself. This channel is gold and I want to thank you, and your team if that is the case, for the great content!
Yes it sure does, in many ways...ty
Love this channel!!!
Thanks Xavier!
Awesome work describing Character Development & Goals.
Thank you!
Yes, it does help me with my current script. All of your videos help.
Glad to help!
My takeaway is the goal is different from the method of achieving that goal.
Help pls !
What is a good motive to be a hero other than "i want to save people because is the right thing to do" , "i want to be a hero to be the best or i want to be a stronger" , "i want to see people smile" ?
Great useful clip. Also useful in business
What about a James Bond character? His goal is to stop the bad guy. The bad guy is really causing everything to happen, but the James Bond character is active in stopping the bad guy. Is it enough of a goal to stop the bad guy? Is this a goal?
i guess that's partially why so much stuff written about cops/doctors/lawyers. doing their job is enough goal for them.
@@alexjwebabou I have a story where the protagonist is seen as a passive character, but they're just 13 years old. The main character that drives the story is the villian, but Ipeople tell me the protagonist, kid, needs to be more active. It will make the story more interesting if the kid tries to be more aggressive? This is what I think they're telling me and, I think, it makes sense. You can't just have a passive protagonist that gets acted upon?
@@icecat2009 well, the classic counter-example is Harry Potter who is passive most of the time, but there's a mystery surrounding him that makes up for that. Also, teens are not children, they are usually very active and have all sorts of issues. If there's a villain, how does the kid confront them? When acted upon, the kid might fight back (not necessarily openly)...
@@alexjwebabou What do you think about a Manchurian Candidate character? Isn't this type of character somewhat passive? If you ever watched the Manchurianchan Candidate with Ray Donovan, you see he's kinda passive with a lot of mystery, but he's not always that way.
@@icecat2009 I haven't seen it, but i read about it. i think when it's clear that there's some big mystery/conspiracy involved, the main character is an audience surrogate. or someone they follow to solve the mystery. the author can get away with letting things happen to the MC, since there's a promise of something bigger.
I don't think a weak goal kills a story. a weak goal can be very important to the character, but if the writer cannot make the audience understand what the goal means to the character then it fails.
The questionI keep asking myself is: even if a (good) protagonist tries really hard to achieve his goal, is it enough to make an audience care?
the conflict has to be as big if not bigger than the goal for it to be super interesting
I'd say the audience caring is more of a character issue than a motivation issue. If the audience cares for a character, they will care about what is important to the character, even if it's just a "small" goal like cooking the perfect meal. It has to be made clear why the goal is important to the character, though - Emotionally high stakes
@@nero9248 i like your point about the "small" goal that we emotionally care about - much more satisfying achievement to witness than showy goal with zero fks given. Do any other examples come to mind? I am a lot more character driven that plot driven and the notion of pat/fixed formulas for storytelling bore me before i've even begun, it feels too contrived and predictable
I've had a hard time learning to up the stakes. My story's gone from wanting to find a cure for a little girl to having to save the whole world. How do i up the stakes without going so far? How do i make it important to the reader? (I'm working a novel)
What does she mean, 'break into two'?
0:49
Believe she is referring to the act change from the first act to the second act.
@@filmcourage
Okay, thanks
Does this apply if I want to write a series of ongoing comics? I don't want a big final ending, I just want my characters to do stuff each comic
HELP ME!!!
Ok, so I write books and my MC's motive is satisfied half-way through. I don't want her to be dragged along but don't know why she would ever stick around otherwise... HELP PLZ!!!
Common Option - Understand the characters Wants & Needs (go look it up, plenty of references on that), the characters have completed their wants, but that's not emotionally fulfilling. The Need is what will complete them on a subconscious level, they may not even be aware or what it is.
Uncommon option - Their motivation evolves, in art we have a saying where true mastery is impossible. You can only reach the level above you, once you reach that level you'll find a new hidden level, every new level of mastery will reveal how much you don't know.
Structural option - if you're in the middle you should be employing the second act twist, where an unforeseen event happens that makes the character change their tactics. IE the second Star Wars movie, Luke sets off to defeat Darth Vader to find out the twist that Vader is his father, thus changing Luke's tactics in the third movie. maybe look into that.
If I could make a recommendation for a great reference, watch Venture Bros, (seasons 1 is pretty weak) the characters regularly go through life changing events that would end any other character, but the show always finds a way to evolve them yet not fundamentally change them.
What if the protagonist is across the screenplay preventing themselves from achieving their goalm
Then it sounds like you are talking about the inner journey rather than the outer journey. Michael Hague has a lot of good info on this.
Try this: th-cam.com/video/5MFW-a3AURA/w-d-xo.html
I believe a good guide for a strong goal is to ask yourself, what would make you travel around the world fervently to reach that goal.
When you got that. Try to reinvent that into your character. And his or her want will be strong and relatable.
Then check other people. For instance, some people are hardcore introvert and whatever might take you to travel and reach your goal might not be enough for them, as they may need some more persuasion to take the step. So try to think as them and ask yourself again. What would make me voluntarly travel into the unknown?
From there on you can think of a backstory to give that voluntary jump-up more sense.
Interestingly, the absence of personal stakes is the death knell of a character's goal. Weak Goals
This should be obvious.