I'm always a bit reluctant to listen to some gear head talk about his views on ebikes, but I must say this fellow was a pleasant surprise and the video and info was top notch. Thank you.
For a short presentation / introduction this was excellent. You mentioned it but needs to be emphasized - weight distribution and what happens if you break a chain (a hub motor will get you home). My older road bike has a mid-drive 750 watt motor with a single cadence sensor that has separate quirks. Newer bikes don’t have this and soon most bikes will have belt drives so look to what is happening in the industry before buying. I’m now a subscriber to this channel. This presentation was well done.
Well done. The element you did not mention is the mid-drive reducing unsprung weight which is going to make a big difference on the rear wheel handing rough terrain.
Thank you for the information. You made my decision easy. Hub all the way because I'm an older man that will use the throttle more than peddling except when in peddle assist.
In England and most of Europe we are only allowed to have legally 250 watt motor and no throttle and a maximum speed of 20 mph so it would be interesting to see if this changes as sometimes normal bikes go faster than that ridden by more experienced riders
@@dawnriches5946 "250 watt motor" is nearly meaningless. Watts = volts times amps, meaning 2.5 volts x 100 amps and 100 volts x 2.5 amps are both 250 watts. That's why motors are measured in Kv ratings, since volts determine the RPM of the wheel, not watts. A wheel moving at 2.5 volts is dramatically different than one at 100 volts.
I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot. Well done, Francis! Thank you. I had a 500 watt hub motor ebike first. I then went to a 750 watt mid-drive. Both had cadence sensors. I thought I would LOVE the mid-drive bike a lot more, especially as it was more than twice the price, but sadly I don't. I've JUST put out more money than ever before on a Stromer ST5 ABS. 650 watt, 850 watt at peak performance, hub motor with torque sensor. This thing is a rocket, including for climbing hills. It's whisper-quiet, super powerful and feels totally natural. The power delivery is so smooth. This bike wins hands-down. High end. Hub motor Torque sensor I'm now selling my mid-drive. :-)
Can you have both a mid drive motor and and a rear hub motor working together? I'm looking for insane acceleration to get up any hill, I was looking at the eunorau flash, Ariel grizzly, and Vulcan OG. I like grizzly and the Vulcan, don't know which is better of the two, but I like the flash has the mid drive, and might be able to have a rear motor also, I'm not sure how that acceleration or setup would compare to the other two? What do you think?
@@slickrick4912 If you want insane acceleration, you should look at the motor _controller_ not just the motor itself. The motor will take anything you throw at it, even up to the point of overheating or even melting the glue holding the magnets in. The more amps you dump into the motor, the more acceleration you will get, but also more heat. But that kind of fine-tune tinkering isn't what pre-builds like Ariel or Vulcan are made for. DIY parts like the Grin PhaseRunner are designed with fine-tune tinkering, but you have to piece the bike together and troubleshoot any problems yourself.
THANK you Sir! You did an excellent job in explaining the differences between Mid-drive and Hub motors for E-Bikes. Your video here makes lots of sense on a rather complex subject > 🙂
Whoa, just found your channel. I've been following your RC Review channel. Cool to see you've got another one. Always great info in your videos. Thanks
VERY good coverage of a compare & contrast. Extremely informative. Thank you. I've been researching a conversion kit for a 4" fat tire bike & was about to give up. Pulled the trigger today & ordered one. Time will tell.
Well-done, Francis. You did a good job of staying unbiased. I don't mind the cadence sensored hub motor bikes; they just take a bit more of a technical mind to put them to good use. You're right that they don't feel as natural (compared to a regular bike). After a fellow goes through that learning curve, it doesn't matter any more. My wife and daughter didn't like it though; they went into it with the expectation of it being like a regular bike, so they were disappointed.
Hello Friend, and thank you for this video! This is a wonderful and informative video! I have never owned any kind of ebike and I was just about to buy a DIY kit but thank goodness I watched this first! You have shown me the exact type of motor I need for my bike and the type of riding I do. I gave you a like and I just subscribed. I do appreciate your info! Best regards! An Ohio recumbent rider wanting to cruise 100 miles or more on paved road.
Yes! For my next ebike, I want a hub motor with a torque sensor because I don't need the advantage of a mid drive. I'm not biking up mountains. And I don't want the extra stress that a mid drive puts onto my drive chain for the sake of low maintenance and simplicity. But I'm tired of my cadence sensor ebike because I feel like I am helping the motor with my pedalling rather than the motor helping me.
Something to consider is that a hub drive requires a great deal more wheel maintenance. Not only is the rear wheel carrying most of your weight and what you carry, but also the heavier motor itself. It is doing this on much shorter spokes that aren't laced and close to radial, so they loosen a lot easier amd have a greater tendency to poke holes in tubes.
Really good information, counter intuitive and based on recent tech advamces, delivered with a lot of common sense and very straight forward. Great stuff. I have been on both hub and mid drive bikes, what he says makes sense of all the apparent contradictions
In this vidro, you give the clearest most objective explanation of the differences between hub and mid-drive e-bikes that I have seen anywhere. 👍👍 and thank you. Your channel is the best ebike review channel I have seen yet. Keep up the great work.
@@difflocktwowhat they are saying is that most 500 watt hub drives will peak around 1200. The same mid-drive will peak somewhere around 8 or 900, but the hub drive will have a very limited range in which it can access its 80nm's of torque while the mid-drive might have as much as 120nm's of torque and available over a much wider range. The difference in hillclimbing ability is huge.
Motor hub feito para andar em ruas retas, sem declive, motor mid é feito para ruas com declive , um motor hub consome mais bateria , entao preciza de uma bateria maior e mais pesada! Um mid nao preciza de uma bateria maior, e ainda esta dentro das normas das bicicletas que podem ser comercializadas dentro da lei !
@@MHH3180 The system with more power will perform better. If I put 1200 W to the ground, it is going to be faster than if I put 900 W to the ground. In the real world, we see that hubs have the same or better range than mid drive. Solar race cars use direct drive hub drives because it is the most efficient drive. Motor torque is motor torque, it does not matter if it is in the hub or somewhere else. This is a matter of motor design, not of motor location.
This video proves that a camera and an internet connection do not automatically make you an expert on any subject discussed. He smiles a lot, too, proving Ignorance must be bliss.
If you have any points you disagree with or insight you want to share, please state it right here. We are listening. Otherwise you look like just look like a hapless troll taking cheapshots, throwing insults and hating on the world.
@@EMTBReview - Here we go. 1st, Weight. The weight of the motor has little bearing on the overall weight of the bike. The forks, wheels, tires and of course the frame all have far more impact on weight. 2nd, Power. Most mid-drive motors, in Canada at any rate, are 350 watts or more, 500 being the normal and over 1000+ watts at the higher end. 3rd, Durability. Your statement about peddling strikes adding to the failure of mid-motor bikes is, possibly, correct, however, within that statement, you neglect to mention that hub motors are at the centre of excessive force at the rear wheel. You don't see hub motor on high-end eMTB for many reasons, and this is one of them. 4th, Throttle. Highend (i.e. real eMTBs - Rocky Mountain, Norco, Canyon, Orbea, Trek etc.) are class one and have no trottle. Most mainstream mid-motor e-bikes are considered "cruisers" or "commuters" etc. and do have a throttle. It has to be used more carefully, but the throttle is there. Further, your video chapters are not in sync. Further still, if you thought I was "hating on the world" I feel sorry for you. How do you get through the day without a spine? Now that was a "cheap shot". Or was it?
@@Ukiah.Spirit now we're talking. You make some good points and I disagree with some of them. Not sure I want to argue since you are adding great value and insight here. Your original comment was a personal insult to me without stating a single point except that I was an ignorant, smiling 'expert' with a camera. You took the time to explain your points and I appreciate that.
I'm so glad that we now have hub motor with torque sensor now because now, rather than having to spend $4000+ to get the ebike I want. Now, I can get the ebike I want for about $2000.
Hell yeah, using a drone for some of your video content. Excellent. Somebody "get's it". Good vid on ebikes too. Curious. Seem expensive, but do they deliver for what you pay? Any kind of small ebike or moped always struggle when it comes to dealing with hills. But a great downhill. lol.
Really good video, you give enough to understand but don’t go too in-depth with each category. On top of that, you pick a winner instead of being on the fence with everything.
This was incredibly helpful! Thank you. I have a 2008 Trice T that I would like to convert. Because of my trike's age and configuration, a hub drive sounds like the obvious choice. One of the complaints I've heard about hub drives is spoke loosening or breakage. Have you seen much of a problem with this? I just want to tour and where I live, I have some hills where I need extra help. This was excellent information!
Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive kits can be fitted to almost any bicycle, I fit a couple of them to Trek bicycles and also to ICE and Catrike recumbent trikes. When using the optional throttle of the Tongsheng the motor drives the chain but the pedals don't rotate.
Hi. Excellent video but you forgot to mention someting.Riding uphill on some hub drive motor bike you can select the gearing plus throttle & pedal assist!!! 🎉😂❤😊
6:33 I have already 12KW Enduro e bike my HUB motor do not have this roar sound even on high speed the trick is in the controller. Cheapest controller when you drive a bike with a HUB have noise like rocks are rolling, but must expensive controllers like Sabvoton and etc switch between 3 phase (on HUB coil) the diagram wave is more smooth and that kill the noise. Off road - mid drive motor for a city HUBs are the best. Also i not agree with you 'mid drive motor is more quiet than HUBs' add the noise from chain movement and gears the can be noise more than HUBs. For me the HUBs are the best one because no need maintenance or replace on gear part (motor) like Bafang
Thanks for a great video explaining the difference. I have just got myself a cheap basic hub rear drive bike 250w. I find the motor is helpful but annoying it feels like someone is pushing me from behind then dropping off then pushing again - I am used to motorbikes and mountainbikes . The bike has no throttle and limited to EU 25km so that is my first change - I pulled the wiring out and it has no option for a throttle so I will be upgrading the controller and display and adding the throttle for more control. My ideal would be motorbike style interaction with the pedaling to help out when it gets bogged down on hills.
One advantage of a mid-drive is less unsprung weight. A heavy hub wheel cannot go up and down as fast as a light one. So it may not follow the terrain as well. Also, powerwise, the BBSHD Bafang is also 1000 watts and you can use a throttle.
Mid drive for mtn. biking and hub drive for primarily road bikes. I've been rolling that way for years. My road bikes I have made use front hub DD motors with no PAS, just a throttle with cruise control, which for me allows for a much more natural pedal feel at the higher cadence associated with road riding. I have ridden them from 9k to sea level all over the west. I tried a mid drive torque PAS road bike and hated it but wouldn't do without it on my eMTB. Can't stand cadence PAS.
Thankyou for your patient and well thought out and wide ranging topics coverage with CAVEATS (love those!). Pls could you advice me which is better for me - I weight about 285lb - and looking for bike to ride to work and back - 6miles each way - GREAT JOB KEEP IT UP
Mid drive for your, sir. The back wheel already is heavy with the motor. There will be a lot of tear on only that back wheel. With a mid drive, you are dispensing the weight along both wheels. Plus, any hills you go through will have trouble with a hub drive because, let's be honest, you way A LOT. Therefore, go for a mid drive...... OR, lose the weight.
So for power, the mid drive has more power in torque. If you compare a 750 watt hub vs the same in a mid drive, the hub always puts the same torque to the wheel. The mid drive changes the torque through the gears so the lowest gear on a mid drive might multiply the torque by say 2 times, but as you go through the gears, your torque will decrease. For hill climbing, you want the mid drive. For top speed or simplicity, the hub motor.
I've had both mid drive and hub, and for me the mid drive wins hands down because it has a better centre of balance and the rear drive is harder to get the rear wheel off if you have a puncture. Both are good but I prefer the mid drive.
Fantastic, I'm keen to learn more about hybrid motorcycles, how could a Hub Motor could be integrated with a Honda Super Cub (Gas+Battery), for increased torque ?
My home built bike started with a 1500W rear hub drive. Not enough for the hills in my area, the motor really groaned. I increased my 48V battery to a 52V (about 15% more power). Still not enough, so I added a 1500W hub motor in the front, on it's own throttle control. That works nicely, but is really heavy. I've looked at building another bike. A fat tire with a 1000W mid drive. I picked a bike with a wide gear range (11-46) in the rear. I expect the low gear ratio to climb hills (more slowly) with less motor groan. Now I'm not so sure.
My husband has a hub drive ebike with a 1000 watt motor front and back. The peddle assist and throttle has started to become hit and miss at present and will sometimes work or just stop working for no reason at all and when that happens it's one hell of a heavy bike to peddle so no different than if a chain breaks on my mid drive bike
Thank you for this informative video. One thing that I was hoping to get a little information on is which motor is better if you run out of battery and still need to go a good distance to get home. It’s my observation that hub motors put a considerable amount of resistance in getting to where you need to go and you need to put in the extra effort because of the internal resistance of the motor. Is the same true for mid drive motors? I took a Karbon mountain bike for a test demo and purposely shut off the drive motor display to see what type of resistance the motor was generating. It was an m810 Bafang mid drive motor and I didn’t notice much appreciable resistance with the electronics off. Is this typical of most mid-drive motors? If so, this is an important thing to talk about because you will eventually need to get back with a dead battery to charge it. Also, there are some DEC trails in New York that don’t allow e-bikes. With the battery removed I want my bike to perform as a non-electric e-bike and be able to use it on these trails. Do all mud-drive motors perform similarly in this respect? I wonder if the CYC Photon behaves similarly.
Most of the hub motor bikes have almost no drag when the motor is off. For mid-drive bikes, some have almost no drag and some have about a 10% drag. So i would say it's a mixed bag but hub motor generally is easier to pedal with the motor turned off
@@EMTBReview This is not my experience at all with hub drive motors. I have two e-bikes with hub drive motors. Both hub drive motors have a substantial amount of internal resistance when the battery runs out or when the controller or battery are powered off. They both are 250W motors. I looked into this and see that this is pretty typical of hub drive motors. The internal resistance is called “back EMF” and is from the motor acting as a generator. Mid drive motors have only mechanical resistance from the internal spinning gears but is disconnected from the motor itself by a nylon gear and clutch. This is why the internal resistance is minimal and in most cases, not even noticeable on the trails with a mid-drive motor. There should be a mention about this because there is a BIG difference.
So things to consider on the weight. The other than a possible battery in the frame area the weight is at the rear so lifting the front could be easier? For instance I use to wheelie the front wheel up to get in the elevator at the old apartment. Still do this in the house sometimes for ease of nonviability around corners. (well not any more with my mid drive and battery) Also in my case - Less "sprung" weight on my full suspension frame makes it feel more like a Natural & maneuverable MTB. The suspension can cause its own little gremlins as far as chain tension and alignment..... On the noise - this is a good point however the crunchy crunch of the chain can be more annoying. And if in a trail getting dirty oh boy.. I have had the chain jump off in the worst places. Heck if it was a hub drive I still could have made it up that hill chain or no chain LOL! Or through that mud puddle. As some reference to my knowledge I currently have the Bafang 1000w mid drive and 52v2ah battery and hate the range and the chain issues. Going to go through a lot of cassettes at this rate to. (Still in my gotta go fast years). I do not have a hub kit yet but did order a 2000w rear hub kit from Kirb e bike. I am hoping this will help increase range (during commuting) I do average 35-45KM/h in traffic. Most of the time it is me over the bafang in power since PAS mode 3-4 will not go all the way through the 8 Spd gear set. if I am trying to add as much manual power as I can then get the motor to get the speed (hence 52v)! Because the motor is still putting out say 350w even though I "feel" the gears this is a waste of energy. It also forces you to chew up gears in order to get to a speed that even regular cyclist will do. When you say "torque sensor" is this the same as the 12 magnet pickup for Pedal assist? The new hub kit I just bought has this type of thing. Every one I talk to says not to install as it is very sensitive.... it is a 2000w kit after all :😂
I like hub drives. I'm hoping I get 5-10 years out of my new ebike. Hub motors are bulletproof. I ride mostly short trips to do shopping. Sometimes I dont want to pedal. 😁
have a rear hub motor 750 with a rear casette 11 28( 29x2.1 inch wheel tire) and i ride only by use pedal assist !!! I have climb mountains over 4000ft and often ride over 3000ft !! ...Use batterie 48v 2X15A and manage over 110mil distance !!! So my conclusion is that using always your feet the difference of hub and mid is very small !! And I am talking about almost 100% riding in asphalt roads ! Am i correct ?
As long as the roads are not very steep and the rider has a lot of momentum, hub motors can climb. But when the roads/trails get very steep as in over 10% or 15% sustained grades, hub motor bikes have little chance of making it up. And if the rider is heavy and not very powerful, much worse.
@@EMTBReview For sure i have strong legs and i use them a lot when i ride at steep roads with around 10 to 20% sustained (asphalt) grade at over 3000ft altitude helping motor with my legs ! My bike weights 56 p and me with all my gear and second batterie 200p !! Bike manage it very well !!! So i believe that you all must mention that when you compare hub and mid !!! Thank you !!!😀
I own each one of them, MTB. The HUB drive is more fun with the throttle, it's more powerful uphill and IT's NOT noisier (maybe quieter) than the mid-drive. The battery lasts slightly less on stress (pulling another bike) and the overall quality of these bikes is FAR inferior to mid-drive bikes so if you want to do proper MTB the hub drive doesn't have such good bikes. The MID-DRIVE usually offers better quality bikes (far more expensive), the battery lasts more, easy to upgrade or change wheels/tires but you need to pedal to move, not same power, a bit noisier (Lapierre Overvolt), and it is not as fast. Each weight 25kg. If I had to choose 1 I'd go with the cheaper HUB drive.
For mountain biking, hub motor is rough since it just makes the bike severely imbalanced. Commuting, no problem. Hub motors seem to roar at high speed. Mid-drive motors, the most standard one is the Levo motor or the Shimano EP8. Both are pretty quiet at full speed.
Hub motor commuter, city bike for sure with throttle. Hub motors have more power and an optional throttle is good to get you started from a stop or an incline. Having torque sensor on the bike is very good. The new Specialize Globe Haul bikes are an excellent choice. th-cam.com/video/K7MJjlk9OKA/w-d-xo.html
As even a 35 year old with occasional knee issues myself, I've had to rely on the throttle on my ebike for some seasons. A hub motor with a torque sensor instead of a cadence sensor would be my recommendation. A cadence sensor can be just fine, but it sometimes makes me feel like the amount of pedaling work that I want to put in doesn't line up with what the motor is putting out so I either feel like I'm pedaling just going through the motions just to trigger the cadence sensor, or I'm lowering my pedal assist level and downshifting a few gears to finally feel like my pedalling is contributing, but it often cuts my speed down by 30%. This issue that I've described might be alleviated if the ebike had higher gear options than a 7-speed, but at that point, we're veering into mountain bike territory.
I have a question. I think the gear ratio of the sprocket combined with the hub drive is not enough. Do you think that if the gear ratio is expanded more significantly, the utilization value of hub drives will be higher? For example, what do you think is the difference between using 300% gear ratio for 7 steps and using 500% for 12 steps? I am a gearbox developer who mounts the center. My gearbox has a gear ratio of 606% in 15 steps. Of course, this gearbox is more than necessary to combine with the hub motor. I can make 548% gear ratio for 10 steps. I have a plan to produce a bicycle with this gearbox and hub drive. I don't know what kind of performance it will be because I haven't combined it with the hub motor yet. I wonder how much more efficient it is to provide enough gear ratio for hub drives.
#7 I HATE relying on throttle on my hub drive ebike. The chainring is so big the bike is so heavy, makes fatbiking so hard. Hills too. Looking to change to a smaller chainring to help get it going without the motor.
Mid drive motors put a lot of torque on the transmission and wear out more often the chsin , pinion cassette and chainring but are more efficient .... for a commuting on asphalt bike I would go for a rear hub motor and mtb mid drive better
The reason the hub motor has more torque is your spinning a large diameter. Because they can build the hub motor as large as they want to increase torque. Bldc motors are smaller diameter. So it has less torque. That is what the gears are for (example: 11t sprocker motors 44t on wheel 4:1 mechanical advantage.) Hub motors have every few ways to make more speed or torque. Battery, controller, and bigger hub are your three main ways.
Mote power, not torque most importantly, hub drives lose both power and torque when you need it most. No motor likes being slowed. It turns power in to heat. With a mid-drive you can downshift to keep motor rpm's higher and access its power over a much larger range.
I'm always a bit reluctant to listen to some gear head talk about his views on ebikes, but I must say this fellow was a pleasant surprise and the video and info was top notch. Thank you.
😂😂😂
He didn't address the huge difference of direct drive vs geared hub motors
Ok, hubbahs torque much more fun on mid drive trail bike of city,,, just better thats why they cost more 😁
Hes like the foreign guy from South Park ... City wok and city airlines owner lmao he's both just changes his uniform lmao
For a short presentation / introduction this was excellent. You mentioned it but needs to be emphasized - weight distribution and what happens if you break a chain (a hub motor will get you home). My older road bike has a mid-drive 750 watt motor with a single cadence sensor that has separate quirks. Newer bikes don’t have this and soon most bikes will have belt drives so look to what is happening in the industry before buying. I’m now a subscriber to this channel. This presentation was well done.
Just learnt, more in 10 minutes.than in 5 years . Just brilliant. Thank you
Glad it helped! It took me a bit of effort to really comprehend these concepts so I can explain them in simple terms. So thank you.
Well done. The element you did not mention is the mid-drive reducing unsprung weight which is going to make a big difference on the rear wheel handing rough terrain.
I am absorbing everything out here about e bikes, this was VERY HELPFUL!!!
Thanks for an excellent tutorial.
Thank you for the information. You made my decision easy. Hub all the way because I'm an older man that will use the throttle more than peddling except when in peddle assist.
Glad I could help. I learned quite a bit while doing the research for this video. Fascinating differences between the two.
In England and most of Europe we are only allowed to have legally 250 watt motor and no throttle and a maximum speed of 20 mph so it would be interesting to see if this changes as sometimes normal bikes go faster than that ridden by more experienced riders
Ya if i wanted to peddle, I would buy a bike. I want to hit the throttle and go. If it wasnt for the dumb laws, I would like foot pegs and no pedals.
@@dawnriches5946 "250 watt motor" is nearly meaningless. Watts = volts times amps, meaning 2.5 volts x 100 amps and 100 volts x 2.5 amps are both 250 watts. That's why motors are measured in Kv ratings, since volts determine the RPM of the wheel, not watts. A wheel moving at 2.5 volts is dramatically different than one at 100 volts.
Fantastic primer without the eye-rolling technical jargon. Every e-bike shopper should watch this. Great job!
I really appreciate that. It takes time to understand these concepts and make sense of them.
@@EMTBReview Thank you for this Video! I am just beginning to learn about E bikes. This is a Super Start! 2 Thumbs UP! Subscribed!
Exactly what I was looking for--an unbiased, reasoned comparison between ebike drive trains. Well done!
Glad you liked it! TH-cam is a great learning tool so we try to do our part.
Thank you! this by far is the BEST and most clear explanation about ebike motors I come accross!🙏🏻😊
Great video! Thank you very much.
Glad it helped!
This is the clearest and most well balanced review of the different systems I have come across. Very well delivered thanks.
I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot. Well done, Francis! Thank you. I had a 500 watt hub motor ebike first. I then went to a 750 watt mid-drive. Both had cadence sensors. I thought I would LOVE the mid-drive bike a lot more, especially as it was more than twice the price, but sadly I don't.
I've JUST put out more money than ever before on a Stromer ST5 ABS. 650 watt, 850 watt at peak performance, hub motor with torque sensor. This thing is a rocket, including for climbing hills. It's whisper-quiet, super powerful and feels totally natural. The power delivery is so smooth. This bike wins hands-down.
High end.
Hub motor
Torque sensor
I'm now selling my mid-drive.
:-)
For commuter bikes, hub motors with torque sensors are better for the money. For emtb, mid-drive is key for weight balance and maneuverability
Can you have both a mid drive motor and and a rear hub motor working together? I'm looking for insane acceleration to get up any hill, I was looking at the eunorau flash, Ariel grizzly, and Vulcan OG. I like grizzly and the Vulcan, don't know which is better of the two, but I like the flash has the mid drive, and might be able to have a rear motor also, I'm not sure how that acceleration or setup would compare to the other two? What do you think?
So i am thinking buying a e bike the price is around 1000 price and i was thinking hub bike.What do you recommend?
@@slickrick4912 If you want insane acceleration, you should look at the motor _controller_ not just the motor itself. The motor will take anything you throw at it, even up to the point of overheating or even melting the glue holding the magnets in. The more amps you dump into the motor, the more acceleration you will get, but also more heat. But that kind of fine-tune tinkering isn't what pre-builds like Ariel or Vulcan are made for. DIY parts like the Grin PhaseRunner are designed with fine-tune tinkering, but you have to piece the bike together and troubleshoot any problems yourself.
THANK you Sir! You did an excellent job in explaining the differences between Mid-drive and Hub motors for E-Bikes. Your video here makes lots of sense on a rather complex subject > 🙂
Whoa, just found your channel. I've been following your RC Review channel. Cool to see you've got another one. Always great info in your videos. Thanks
Top quality info without the frills or bias!
Thanks for this 15 minutes of extremely valuable eye opening content!
My pleasure! Will try to do more
This is by far the best video I have seen dealing with this subject.
VERY good coverage of a compare & contrast. Extremely informative. Thank you. I've been researching a conversion kit for a 4" fat tire bike & was about to give up. Pulled the trigger today & ordered one. Time will tell.
i like the bafan 750watt very much, 3 years no break down.
Super high quality content. You can reach Electrek heights :)
Well-done, Francis. You did a good job of staying unbiased.
I don't mind the cadence sensored hub motor bikes; they just take a bit more of a technical mind to put them to good use. You're right that they don't feel as natural (compared to a regular bike). After a fellow goes through that learning curve, it doesn't matter any more. My wife and daughter didn't like it though; they went into it with the expectation of it being like a regular bike, so they were disappointed.
Great feedback. Thank you.
Hello Friend, and thank you for this video! This is a wonderful and informative video! I have never owned any kind of ebike and I was just about to buy a DIY kit but thank goodness I watched this first!
You have shown me the exact type of motor I need for my bike and the type of riding I do.
I gave you a like and I just subscribed. I do appreciate your info!
Best regards!
An Ohio recumbent rider wanting to cruise 100 miles or more on paved road.
Yes! For my next ebike, I want a hub motor with a torque sensor because I don't need the advantage of a mid drive. I'm not biking up mountains. And I don't want the extra stress that a mid drive puts onto my drive chain for the sake of low maintenance and simplicity.
But I'm tired of my cadence sensor ebike because I feel like I am helping the motor with my pedalling rather than the motor helping me.
Something to consider is that a hub drive requires a great deal more wheel maintenance. Not only is the rear wheel carrying most of your weight and what you carry, but also the heavier motor itself. It is doing this on much shorter spokes that aren't laced and close to radial, so they loosen a lot easier amd have a greater tendency to poke holes in tubes.
Thank you, that was a great explanation. We bought two bikes for commuting. Both have hub motors.
Glad it helped. I know I'm onto a good video when I learn a lot during my research.
Really good information, counter intuitive and based on recent tech advamces, delivered with a lot of common sense and very straight forward. Great stuff. I have been on both hub and mid drive bikes, what he says makes sense of all the apparent contradictions
In this vidro, you give the clearest most objective explanation of the differences between hub and mid-drive e-bikes that I have seen anywhere. 👍👍 and thank you. Your channel is the best ebike review channel I have seen yet. Keep up the great work.
Glad it was helpful! Very kind words!
I really enjoyed this, good job.
Thanks for creating and sharing this outstanding content. You rock.
I appreciate that! Hopefully, this will be useful in the future.
@@EMTBReview Maye the force
Excellent seminar, thanks.
Great video, thanks. I love that you covered durability and maintenance, which is often overlooked.
I didnt know you did ebikes too. Rc follower here😀
Best comparison video I’ve seen yet. You’ve made my choice so much simpler. Thanks so much!
Glad it was helpful! I haven’t seen this information outlined like this, so I made the effort
If you compare a 500watt hub motor and a 500watt mid drive motor you will find that the mid drive has a lot more torque.
Then they are not the same power. If two outputs are the same, you cannot tell the difference.
@@difflocktwowhat they are saying is that most 500 watt hub drives will peak around 1200. The same mid-drive will peak somewhere around 8 or 900, but the hub drive will have a very limited range in which it can access its 80nm's of torque while the mid-drive might have as much as 120nm's of torque and available over a much wider range. The difference in hillclimbing ability is huge.
Motor hub feito para andar em ruas retas, sem declive, motor mid é feito para ruas com declive , um motor hub consome mais bateria , entao preciza de uma bateria maior e mais pesada! Um mid nao preciza de uma bateria maior, e ainda esta dentro das normas das bicicletas que podem ser comercializadas dentro da lei !
Dnt matter, most have dual hub anyway
@@MHH3180 The system with more power will perform better. If I put 1200 W to the ground, it is going to be faster than if I put 900 W to the ground.
In the real world, we see that hubs have the same or better range than mid drive.
Solar race cars use direct drive hub drives because it is the most efficient drive.
Motor torque is motor torque, it does not matter if it is in the hub or somewhere else. This is a matter of motor design, not of motor location.
Nice video! love your approach to this!
Glad you liked it! Had to think long and hard about it.
Hub motors have been blown away with mid-drives. 1000 watts on my last conversion.
Correct. But we are only talking about OEM mid-drives that the bike brands offer, and are integrated into the frame.
Great review, thanks!
Much appreciated.
At 7:20 you say that most mid drive motors peak out at 250w. Better recheck your specs.
Excellent breakdown, Thank you.
Best video on the subject. Perfect summary.
Glad it was helpful! That is very much appreciated.
Love your Rc channel btw
ah yes!
This is the most informative video I've seen 😊
Excellent explanation sir. Thank you!
You are welcome!
Excellent, useful, and very clearly explained. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it! When i learn something when creating my own videos, I know it's worthwhile.
Awesome video!
Good education video with a great delivery. Well done.
Thanks
So nice of you
Great content as always, thanks & congrats!
This video proves that a camera and an internet connection do not automatically make you an expert on any subject discussed. He smiles a lot, too, proving Ignorance must be bliss.
If you have any points you disagree with or insight you want to share, please state it right here. We are listening. Otherwise you look like just look like a hapless troll taking cheapshots, throwing insults and hating on the world.
@@EMTBReview - Here we go.
1st, Weight. The weight of the motor has little bearing on the overall weight of the bike. The forks, wheels, tires and of course the frame all have far more impact on weight.
2nd, Power. Most mid-drive motors, in Canada at any rate, are 350 watts or more, 500 being the normal and over 1000+ watts at the higher end.
3rd, Durability. Your statement about peddling strikes adding to the failure of mid-motor bikes is, possibly, correct, however, within that statement, you neglect to mention that hub motors are at the centre of excessive force at the rear wheel. You don't see hub motor on high-end eMTB for many reasons, and this is one of them.
4th, Throttle. Highend (i.e. real eMTBs - Rocky Mountain, Norco, Canyon, Orbea, Trek etc.) are class one and have no trottle. Most mainstream mid-motor e-bikes are considered "cruisers" or "commuters" etc. and do have a throttle. It has to be used more carefully, but the throttle is there.
Further, your video chapters are not in sync. Further still, if you thought I was "hating on the world" I feel sorry for you. How do you get through the day without a spine?
Now that was a "cheap shot". Or was it?
@@Ukiah.Spirit now we're talking. You make some good points and I disagree with some of them. Not sure I want to argue since you are adding great value and insight here.
Your original comment was a personal insult to me without stating a single point except that I was an ignorant, smiling 'expert' with a camera.
You took the time to explain your points and I appreciate that.
Great informative video. Thanks.
How can I make a hub motor regenerative?
Wow. Thank you for this. It really helps me.
Thanks good information.
I'm so glad that we now have hub motor with torque sensor now because now, rather than having to spend $4000+ to get the ebike I want. Now, I can get the ebike I want for about $2000.
Hell yeah, using a drone for some of your video content. Excellent. Somebody "get's it". Good vid on ebikes too. Curious. Seem expensive, but do they deliver for what you pay? Any kind of small ebike or moped always struggle when it comes to dealing with hills. But a great downhill. lol.
Really good video, you give enough to understand but don’t go too in-depth with each category. On top of that, you pick a winner instead of being on the fence with everything.
Rrrrright? Too many are on the fence about every attribute. There's often a winner and it's good to outline why one should use the alternative.
Thank for your explanation⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Perfect presentation, thank you sir
Great video. Torque sensor first I heard about that.
Thanks 👍
This was incredibly helpful! Thank you. I have a 2008 Trice T that I would like to convert. Because of my trike's age and configuration, a hub drive sounds like the obvious choice. One of the complaints I've heard about hub drives is spoke loosening or breakage. Have you seen much of a problem with this? I just want to tour and where I live, I have some hills where I need extra help. This was excellent information!
One of best explanations :)
Thank you. Took me a while to comprehend it enough to simplify the important differences.
Handy video - thanks!
Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive kits can be fitted to almost any bicycle, I fit a couple of them to Trek bicycles and also to ICE and Catrike recumbent trikes. When using the optional throttle of the Tongsheng the motor drives the chain but the pedals don't rotate.
Hi. Excellent video but you forgot to mention someting.Riding uphill on some hub drive motor bike you can select the gearing plus throttle & pedal assist!!! 🎉😂❤😊
Well it's settled I'm gonna definitely need one of each
That is always the right answer!
6:33 I have already 12KW Enduro e bike my HUB motor do not have this roar sound even on high speed the trick is in the controller. Cheapest controller when you drive a bike with a HUB have noise like rocks are rolling, but must expensive controllers like Sabvoton and etc switch between 3 phase (on HUB coil) the diagram wave is more smooth and that kill the noise. Off road - mid drive motor
for a city HUBs are the best. Also i not agree with you 'mid drive motor is more quiet than HUBs' add the noise from chain movement and gears the can be noise more than HUBs. For me the HUBs are the best one because no need maintenance or replace on gear part (motor) like Bafang
Very good info. Thanks!
Thank you. Helped us as well understand these options.
Thanks for a great video explaining the difference. I have just got myself a cheap basic hub rear drive bike 250w. I find the motor is helpful but annoying it feels like someone is pushing me from behind then dropping off then pushing again - I am used to motorbikes and mountainbikes . The bike has no throttle and limited to EU 25km so that is my first change - I pulled the wiring out and it has no option for a throttle so I will be upgrading the controller and display and adding the throttle for more control. My ideal would be motorbike style interaction with the pedaling to help out when it gets bogged down on hills.
Yeah, hub motors can be annoying since most of them don't have a crank torque sensor so they're a bit on/off based on pedal cadence.
What about building a mountain bike with a front and rear hub
Excellent review sir! Do you know of any geared hub drive motors on Aliexpress?
great job
Well done, thanks for sharing!
Nice video mate❤
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you for this, much appreciated! 😘 Think i will stick with my "hub motor". 🤷♂️😉
Great vid
very interesting 👍👍👍👍
One advantage of a mid-drive is less unsprung weight. A heavy hub wheel cannot go up and down as fast as a light one. So it may not follow the terrain as well. Also, powerwise, the BBSHD Bafang is also 1000 watts and you can use a throttle.
That is quite true!!! That and the center of front rear balance make hub motors unusable for real mountain biking
I always thought the mud drive ruled. I am going to look at my hub drive very differently now.
Mid drive for mtn. biking and hub drive for primarily road bikes. I've been rolling that way for years. My road bikes I have made use front hub DD motors with no PAS, just a throttle with cruise control, which for me allows for a much more natural pedal feel at the higher cadence associated with road riding. I have ridden them from 9k to sea level all over the west. I tried a mid drive torque PAS road bike and hated it but wouldn't do without it on my eMTB. Can't stand cadence PAS.
Yeah, it's all about the bottom bracket torque sensors for both types of motors. e-mtb definitely needs mid-drive for front-rear balance.
whanker
Damn, didn't realise one of my fave RC channels also covers e-bikes!
Rrrrrright?
I got the mid drive on my townia 5i this is a good fit for me
Thankyou for your patient and well thought out and wide ranging topics coverage with CAVEATS (love those!). Pls could you advice me which is better for me - I weight about 285lb - and looking for bike to ride to work and back - 6miles each way - GREAT JOB KEEP IT UP
Mid drive for your, sir. The back wheel already is heavy with the motor. There will be a lot of tear on only that back wheel. With a mid drive, you are dispensing the weight along both wheels. Plus, any hills you go through will have trouble with a hub drive because, let's be honest, you way A LOT. Therefore, go for a mid drive...... OR, lose the weight.
Thanks - Really appreciate honesty and straight to the point
Pls could you tell me any benefits of using light powered emtb vs full power
So for power, the mid drive has more power in torque.
If you compare a 750 watt hub vs the same in a mid drive, the hub always puts the same torque to the wheel. The mid drive changes the torque through the gears so the lowest gear on a mid drive might multiply the torque by say 2 times, but as you go through the gears, your torque will decrease.
For hill climbing, you want the mid drive. For top speed or simplicity, the hub motor.
I've had both mid drive and hub, and for me the mid drive wins hands down because it has a better centre of balance and the rear drive is harder to get the rear wheel off if you have a puncture.
Both are good but I prefer the mid drive.
Fantastic, I'm keen to learn more about hybrid motorcycles, how could a Hub Motor could be integrated with a Honda Super Cub (Gas+Battery), for increased torque ?
My home built bike started with a 1500W rear hub drive. Not enough for the hills in my area, the motor really groaned. I increased my 48V battery to a 52V (about 15% more power). Still not enough, so I added a 1500W hub motor in the front, on it's own throttle control. That works nicely, but is really heavy.
I've looked at building another bike. A fat tire with a 1000W mid drive. I picked a bike with a wide gear range (11-46) in the rear. I expect the low gear ratio to climb hills (more slowly) with less motor groan. Now I'm not so sure.
My husband has a hub drive ebike with a 1000 watt motor front and back. The peddle assist and throttle has started to become hit and miss at present and will sometimes work or just stop working for no reason at all and when that happens it's one hell of a heavy bike to peddle so no different than if a chain breaks on my mid drive bike
A reasonable assessment. I find that mids are more noisy than hubs
At similar power levels, yes.
Thank you for this informative video. One thing that I was hoping to get a little information on is which motor is better if you run out of battery and still need to go a good distance to get home. It’s my observation that hub motors put a considerable amount of resistance in getting to where you need to go and you need to put in the extra effort because of the internal resistance of the motor. Is the same true for mid drive motors? I took a Karbon mountain bike for a test demo and purposely shut off the drive motor display to see what type of resistance the motor was generating. It was an m810 Bafang mid drive motor and I didn’t notice much appreciable resistance with the electronics off. Is this typical of most mid-drive motors? If so, this is an important thing to talk about because you will eventually need to get back with a dead battery to charge it. Also, there are some DEC trails in New York that don’t allow e-bikes. With the battery removed I want my bike to perform as a non-electric e-bike and be able to use it on these trails. Do all mud-drive motors perform similarly in this respect? I wonder if the CYC Photon behaves similarly.
Most of the hub motor bikes have almost no drag when the motor is off. For mid-drive bikes, some have almost no drag and some have about a 10% drag.
So i would say it's a mixed bag but hub motor generally is easier to pedal with the motor turned off
@@EMTBReview
This is not my experience at all with hub drive motors. I have two e-bikes with hub drive motors. Both hub drive motors have a substantial amount of internal resistance when the battery runs out or when the controller or battery are powered off. They both are 250W motors. I looked into this and see that this is pretty typical of hub drive motors. The internal resistance is called “back EMF” and is from the motor acting as a generator. Mid drive motors have only mechanical resistance from the internal spinning gears but is disconnected from the motor itself by a nylon gear and clutch. This is why the internal resistance is minimal and in most cases, not even noticeable on the trails with a mid-drive motor. There should be a mention about this because there is a BIG difference.
So things to consider on the weight. The other than a possible battery in the frame area the weight is at the rear so lifting the front could be easier? For instance I use to wheelie the front wheel up to get in the elevator at the old apartment. Still do this in the house sometimes for ease of nonviability around corners. (well not any more with my mid drive and battery) Also in my case - Less "sprung" weight on my full suspension frame makes it feel more like a Natural & maneuverable MTB. The suspension can cause its own little gremlins as far as chain tension and alignment.....
On the noise - this is a good point however the crunchy crunch of the chain can be more annoying. And if in a trail getting dirty oh boy.. I have had the chain jump off in the worst places. Heck if it was a hub drive I still could have made it up that hill chain or no chain LOL! Or through that mud puddle.
As some reference to my knowledge I currently have the Bafang 1000w mid drive and 52v2ah battery and hate the range and the chain issues. Going to go through a lot of cassettes at this rate to. (Still in my gotta go fast years).
I do not have a hub kit yet but did order a 2000w rear hub kit from Kirb e bike. I am hoping this will help increase range (during commuting) I do average 35-45KM/h in traffic. Most of the time it is me over the bafang in power since PAS mode 3-4 will not go all the way through the 8 Spd gear set. if I am trying to add as much manual power as I can then get the motor to get the speed (hence 52v)! Because the motor is still putting out say 350w even though I "feel" the gears this is a waste of energy. It also forces you to chew up gears in order to get to a speed that even regular cyclist will do.
When you say "torque sensor" is this the same as the 12 magnet pickup for Pedal assist? The new hub kit I just bought has this type of thing. Every one I talk to says not to install as it is very sensitive.... it is a 2000w kit after all :😂
I like hub drives. I'm hoping I get 5-10 years out of my new ebike. Hub motors are bulletproof. I ride mostly short trips to do shopping. Sometimes I dont want to pedal. 😁
have a rear hub motor 750 with a rear casette 11 28( 29x2.1 inch wheel tire) and i ride only by use pedal assist !!! I have climb mountains over 4000ft and often ride over 3000ft !! ...Use batterie 48v 2X15A and manage over 110mil distance !!! So my conclusion is that using always your feet the difference of hub and mid is very small !! And I am talking about almost 100% riding in asphalt roads ! Am i correct ?
As long as the roads are not very steep and the rider has a lot of momentum, hub motors can climb. But when the roads/trails get very steep as in over 10% or 15% sustained grades, hub motor bikes have little chance of making it up. And if the rider is heavy and not very powerful, much worse.
@@EMTBReview For sure i have strong legs and i use them a lot when i ride at steep roads with around 10 to 20% sustained (asphalt) grade at over 3000ft altitude helping motor with my legs ! My bike weights 56 p and me with all my gear and second batterie 200p !! Bike manage it very well !!! So i believe that you all must mention that when you compare hub and mid !!! Thank you !!!😀
I own each one of them, MTB.
The HUB drive is more fun with the throttle, it's more powerful uphill and IT's NOT noisier (maybe quieter) than the mid-drive. The battery lasts slightly less on stress (pulling another bike) and the overall quality of these bikes is FAR inferior to mid-drive bikes so if you want to do proper MTB the hub drive doesn't have such good bikes.
The MID-DRIVE usually offers better quality bikes (far more expensive), the battery lasts more, easy to upgrade or change wheels/tires but you need to pedal to move, not same power, a bit noisier (Lapierre Overvolt), and it is not as fast.
Each weight 25kg.
If I had to choose 1 I'd go with the cheaper HUB drive.
For mountain biking, hub motor is rough since it just makes the bike severely imbalanced. Commuting, no problem.
Hub motors seem to roar at high speed. Mid-drive motors, the most standard one is the Levo motor or the Shimano EP8. Both are pretty quiet at full speed.
I’m 65 with bad knees. Which is best for me? I need the exercise but which one is less stress on my knees
Hub motor commuter, city bike for sure with throttle. Hub motors have more power and an optional throttle is good to get you started from a stop or an incline.
Having torque sensor on the bike is very good. The new Specialize Globe Haul bikes are an excellent choice. th-cam.com/video/K7MJjlk9OKA/w-d-xo.html
As even a 35 year old with occasional knee issues myself, I've had to rely on the throttle on my ebike for some seasons.
A hub motor with a torque sensor instead of a cadence sensor would be my recommendation. A cadence sensor can be just fine, but it sometimes makes me feel like the amount of pedaling work that I want to put in doesn't line up with what the motor is putting out so I either feel like I'm pedaling just going through the motions just to trigger the cadence sensor, or I'm lowering my pedal assist level and downshifting a few gears to finally feel like my pedalling is contributing, but it often cuts my speed down by 30%.
This issue that I've described might be alleviated if the ebike had higher gear options than a 7-speed, but at that point, we're veering into mountain bike territory.
What specialized bike did you buy?
awww yeah. I've been subscribed to you for years with your rc crawling channel. Just found this one! sign me up!
Music to my ears
I have a question. I think the gear ratio of the sprocket combined with the hub drive is not enough.
Do you think that if the gear ratio is expanded more significantly, the utilization value of hub drives will be higher?
For example, what do you think is the difference between using 300% gear ratio for 7 steps and using 500% for 12 steps?
I am a gearbox developer who mounts the center. My gearbox has a gear ratio of 606% in 15 steps.
Of course, this gearbox is more than necessary to combine with the hub motor.
I can make 548% gear ratio for 10 steps. I have a plan to produce a bicycle with this gearbox and hub drive.
I don't know what kind of performance it will be because I haven't combined it with the hub motor yet.
I wonder how much more efficient it is to provide enough gear ratio for hub drives.
#7 I HATE relying on throttle on my hub drive ebike. The chainring is so big the bike is so heavy, makes fatbiking so hard. Hills too. Looking to change to a smaller chainring to help get it going without the motor.
Mid drive motors put a lot of torque on the transmission and wear out more often the chsin , pinion cassette and chainring but are more efficient .... for a commuting on asphalt bike I would go for a rear hub motor and mtb mid drive better
Absolutely!!!
Also you did not mention diy mid drives, bafang and tongsheng et al.
? Is a hub motor more powerful compared to a direct drive motor for bicycle 🚲
The reason the hub motor has more torque is your spinning a large diameter. Because they can build the hub motor as large as they want to increase torque. Bldc motors are smaller diameter. So it has less torque. That is what the gears are for (example: 11t sprocker motors 44t on wheel 4:1 mechanical advantage.) Hub motors have every few ways to make more speed or torque. Battery, controller, and bigger hub are your three main ways.
Mote power, not torque most importantly, hub drives lose both power and torque when you need it most. No motor likes being slowed. It turns power in to heat. With a mid-drive you can downshift to keep motor rpm's higher and access its power over a much larger range.
Best choice in my opinion would be both and I’m surprised nobody has offered that
Not a bad idea. Mid-drive for torque and hub for high speed. The benefit doesn't justify the cost and complexity though for most.
With mid drive motor does one have to constantly pedal?
the New Mahle hub motor looks real interesting 55 nm of torque, supposed to be coming to MTBs soon