This explains the earthquake this morning! Must've been a million Fudds stomping their feet, knowing with 100 % fuddlore certainty what's gonna happen.
@@Everythingblackpowder , How would it have worked with a filler or wad on top of just the smokeless powder. Would compressing the powder against the cap have increased the amount burned?
I suppose it would’ve allowed it to make more pressure and burn more of the smokeless, but it didn’t help all that much when we seated the ball all the way against the unique
@@Everythingblackpowder Given that you're getting the cap spitting the ball into the forcing cone without touching off the powder, _potentially_ you could force the pressure to build more by using a slightly larger ball, but that's very much a *'From Behind A Tree With A String'* kind of idea. Or do it with a cheap musket build kit you don't care too much about, with the long and enclosed barrel it might work better, but still with the whole string and tree thing.
The 16" powder bags were 600 pounds of smokeless, and TEN pounds of Black on the AFT end. The primer ignited the BLACK powder first. I was a BT on the USS New Jersey 1985-1987.
You're right about artillery using BP to set off the real charge--in fact, that's *exactly* what Goex is formulated for (Brett Gibbons is an Ordnance Dept. officer and he talks about this in his video about BP). I saw an article on a web site years ago from a guy who talked about how to develop a smokeless load for BP weapons, so I knew this could be done safely, but I think the real issue is that we have to tell people not to do it to keep some Gomer from overdoing it, and I *know* for a fact, have seen the test results showing it, that heavier charges can blow up revolvers, splitting the chambers wide open. But you always have to tailor everything to the lowest common denominator, and it's easier to say "you can't do this" than it is to say "well, you can do this if you're careful, and if your weapon is in good shape, and if your weapon doesn't have a tiny flaw (which we don't test for because it won't matter if you use it the way we said to), etc., etc. Besides, BP is just more fun! Nice to see you continuing to cause people's heads to explode, however--you do love stirring the shit! I am *not* however, going to read the comments below, though, because I'm not sure my blood pressure meds will be able to handle that.
That’s what I always thought. It’s more an issue of modern revolver rounds only need like 4-10 grains depending on cartridge but cap and ball revolvers are made to hold 30 grains
I think that's definitely where it came from. Used to be for reloading with black powder, the case length determined the amount. You stuffed the case full, jammed the bullet on top, and away you go. Do that with fancy new smokeless(especially early smokeless), kaboom.
I was way ahead as "I Know the cu of avalible charge space per bullet style per gun cylinder's average, but not each of six, do math, fill with diy oiled flower or corn? or such, no balls may move? Not dead space? my charge is ratio mixed of one final in field measured charge. more testing soon. but I will not make "my own" DV!
When smokeless powder was introduced, the priming compounds of the time didn't work ideally. 22 match ammo for example was not so accurate with smokeless. They found that if they mixed the ingredients of both black and smokeless into something called semi-smokeless or the trade name Lesmok, they got clean, uniform burning and only a little more powder fowling than straight smokeless.
George Frost discovered early in the conversion to smokeless for 22lr, that crimp pressure was the key. He started measuring the "pull weight" of his rimfire cartridges and came up with about 45lb pull weight being the ideal. Depending on the powder, it still is. When using a very fast powder like bullseye pull weight is not nearly as critical, but because of the nature of it's burn rate, that fast of a powder is not ideal for 22lr. A medium burn powder with a heavier crimp works best.
When I used to do this kind of stuff, back before the web was invented, I used to tie the gun to a fence post and pull the trigger with a string. And it worked, bc I still have all ten fingers! 🙂
I want to thank you all for another interesting and informative video! I have seen people have success with 5 gr. Of clays with corn meal filler,but no crony to check velocity. Thanks again! 👍🤠
I've seen videos where they stuffed unbelievable amounts of black in a rifle and the results were a tremendous amount of recoil, enough to break the stock in the fixture it was in, but no damage to the barrel itself. I've also seen a demonstration of how dangerous it is to put smokeless powder in a black powder rifle. It took a ridiculous amount of smokeless powder to blow up that rifle, but when it did finally blow, it was catastrophic, a bomb to say the least. I'm not going to try either, but many old black powder rounds were and still are loaded with smokeless powder. To agree with you, I think it's all common sense, how much of which.
I was really surprised you never thought to use filler. I use used coffee grounds to fill up the empty space. Then the ball seats normally and holds the powder in place - even more important with these duplex loads. Also seating the ball that deep means it has a big jump before it hits the rifling - so accuracy probably was not great.
If you don't seat the bullet all the way against the powder no need for fillers, an empty space is nothing alarming really but I agree I "feels" more right. Never happened to me though I always fill my cylinders because my BP is not very dense
@@yannickramouillet3742 In this case it would be to hold the black powder and smokeless in their relative positions to each other. Basically Triplex. WAY too much work to be practical for anything but fun. There are other compositions you can use which are neither black powder OR smokeless, but this isn't he place for that.
My uncles use to do this ,combination for hunting I never heard of not using smokeless my family has always done it. They also have pinched the caps thats how I was taught .the thing I learn watching your videos love them .
4.5 gn of Unique sounds like a mild load in 9mm Para with a 124 gn bullet. In .38 SPL, with 148 grain wadcutters, anything much slower than "Bullseye" will NOT burn fully. As the primer goes off and the powder starts to "ignite" the bullet moves forward, ESPECIALLY the polymer-coatedtype. This effectively increases the combustion-chamber volume ans LOWERS pressure. In turn, quite a lot of the initial tiddly powder charge does NOT ignite; it just leaves unburned powder all over the insides of the gun. Years ago I had a Smith and Wesson Model 52; the semi-auto .38 SPL wadcutter target pistol. With Unique, I just got a gun full of unburned powder and bullets downrange. All that detritus simply slowed the cycling to the point it stopped functioning. After a few "interesting" range sessions. I came to the conclusion that the best powder would be a "fast" one. They don't get much faster than "Bullseye". It was a revelation. Consistent velocities, reliable operation and hits on the 25yd target: WINNER. SO...... How far down the cylinder do you ram the balls? If the powder is sloshing around in that comparatively large .44 chamber, I can understand why ignition with pure smokeless is "erratic", at best. How "hot' re the specified "percussion caps, compared to center-fire pistil primers? LOTS of variables in the air in this project. BUT, somebody had to ask..............And here you are!
ignition issues: use a filler (cotton fluff for example) between the projectile and the cap. It'll keep the powder against the cap for ignition inside the chamber.
That was my first reaction, however, that is not the problem here, if you load 5 gr of smokeless in a 45 Colt there is a huge amount of air space inside, exactly the same as in this experiment, I believe the problem is the lack of pressure due to the open hole in the nipple, a 45 Colt cartridge is a sealed chamber that allows pressure to build up inside, in this experiment the smokeless is in an open chamber, just like burning out in the open, it does not explode. Stay safe! Chris B.
I came in late, but caught most of the experiment. Interesting! Was thinking that perhaps a cream of wheat filler might help those deep seated loads. Thanks for the non sucky video, Jake!!
WELL DONE Jake .. So far the comments are sensible & lacking the expected outrage eh. You reminded me of 'LESMOK' that was used mostly as a .22 Rimfire load from around 1900 up to 1947 - a semi-smokeless mix of BP with 10-20% nitrocellulose - so it has all been done before by professionals. I guess the "issue" mostly is in the variables such as old weak guns and WEAK BRAINS that lack caution and not so common COMMON SENSE ?
I had an old Iver Johnson 16 gauge Shotgun I picked up at a swap n shop, the guy I bought it off of knew nothing about it, it was in rough shape. I went to Cabella's and bought some 16 gauge #7 target load, and put many rounds through the old gun.. I took it to a buddy of mine, who has a firearm training school (yes we have them in Canada). Anyways, he had a friend of his there on this day, who knew old & classic firearms, and told me that it was an made between 1909 & 1919 black powder rifle, and I was incredibly lucky it didn't blow up on me.
What I found to be cool about this was that it kept the revolver a lot cleaner than if full black powder was used. So, the smokeless did its job. When you got the process figured out, the little bit of black behind the larger charge of smokeless and tight seating the ball, well, that was a load that was up where .38 Special and .45 ACP are operating. Not too shabby!
I have never needed anything stronger than 777s in cap locks. I would say try this with trail boss, but i think trail boss went out of business. ... on a side note, thats a pretty cool old truck, and i think it would be great if you would show it to us sometime. Great video, as always !
@@Everythingblackpowdermaybe you should wear a helmut or other protective gear when experimenting? Id hate to see the videos stop because of an injury.
That's an interesting point, Trail Boss is a purposely low bulk density smokeless powder. Ive put 14g of Trail Boss through an Ruger Old Army with conicals, 1300+ fps. Not worried about the frame or cylinder, my thought is blowing out the nipple threads.
Excellent video. Love to see a follow up with an inline rifle using modern primers. Maybe copy 50-70 loads and seat the projectile with the same depth as the cartridge. All the destruction testing I've seen with muzzle loaders used wildly inappropriate loads for even a modern rifle.
Im shocked and distraught. Gunpowder in a gun shoots perfectly fine... My uncle's brother's buddy had a roommate in the 70s whos grandad shot a lot of BP and he said smokeless powder would never work in a gun!!!!
My "neighbors bird dog" told me his old master blew up, smelled like smokeless in the morning. Darn dog would only talk with me after his trama, I smell like eggs.
You did better than other attempts I’ve seen at trying to duplex load blackpowder/smokeless. Usually either not enough velocity or getting into explosive cylinder range. I guess the powder/caliber choice. 861 fps is great, but I think I would prefer to overload blackpowder, as far as safety is concerned.
I love Unique. It's a very forgiving powder, and if I could only have one powder to load with, it would be Unique. As you found out though, Unique does not like light loadings. It doesn't burn completely and leaves a mess. It is definitely happier with medium to stout loads. Good Video!
Not just naval guns but all artillery rounds. blackpowder is used to ignite the smokeless powder. Keep in mind that the grains size of the smokeless powder is about the size of your little finger nail cubed
Well ACTUALLY Colt DID experiment with a 44 1851 and at least one prototype was indeed made. I have an extensive collection of Italian clones including a couple of "fantasy" guns. Great vid Jake. You are a better man then I :)
Of course smokeless powder can be used in a black powder firearm if the loading is done such that the maximum chamber pressure is within normal range for the weapon. If you follow a standard 45LC smokeless cowboy loading and seat the ball at the proper depth, it should work fine. The problem is if too much powder is added or the bullet is seated to far down in the chamber, the pressure will be too high and cause the gun to explode. No black powder is needed for that to work. I've seen it done using an inert filler on top of the powder and using an air gap with the bullet depth carefully measured. It worked both ways. As a rule, the average dumb person who tries that will blow their hand off, which is why people say NAY, NAY, don't use smokeless powder....
Theory....... The tiny hole in the nipple limits the flash to the extent that the smokeless won't ignite. The flash hole in a metallic cartridge is much larger. The ball cannot be pushed into the cylinder far enough to take up the air space and put the powder right near the priming flash. I did read many years ago that the Brits did this with fairy dust but used a filler to hold the powder at the back of the cylinder. To generate the full performance and MV of BP, smokeless would need over twice the peak pressure, and that might damage the pistol. I have seen a Remington taken apart by a full charge of smokeless... the Utuber "Cap'n'ball" did a video on it. Not sure what the powder was from memory..... The big "Kaboom" seems to be the product of a full charge of smokeless which would be an overload in a cartridge such as a 45 Colt in any case. A thought occurs.... why not blend a bit of smokeless with the BP, use normal charges (say up to 25) so loading would be easy and run very clean....
Caps also aren't sealed into a case forcing all of the primer energy down the flash hole.. the bp flash hole has to be small as it's a pressure vent to the chamber. A cartridge flash hole doesn't need to hold pressure to launch a projectile so it can be larger.
Overall, I'm impressed with your understanding of ballistics for a woman, but you never want to pre-mix smokeless with black powder. The reason being is the densities are different and you will get inconsistent loads every single time inevitably. This will range from huge swings in velocity all the way to potential kaboom. Bye bye gun and possibly fingers 😮
@@panchopistola8298 try it for yourself. Mix smokeless powder and black powder in a bag and shake it up. It doesn't mix well is what I'm saying If there's a better way to do it than the guy is doing in the video that I'm all ears, but pre-mixing it together in a bag is not the way. Also you don't know what I know dummy
The guy that taught me how to blackpowder shoot used to use 2400 in his .54 as a deer load....he always said 2400 had the same pressure curve as black powder when loaded to the same velocity with the same bullet.....dunno how much truth there was to that theory but considering i have that rifle now it didn't do it any harm
So normally I look at unique as something relatively easy to ignite and volume agnostic (I run 12g of unique in a 45-70 case, which means tons of empty space). But of course that's with a far stronger primer. I think that you're right on the powder speculation: Something super fast and again relatively volume agnostic (bullseye, titegroup, etc) might be easier to ignite, and therefore produce better results. Interesting results, most of my reloading is with more forgiving powders that don't care as much about primers and this sort of thing refocuses my attention to how primers can impact things that I normally don't pay much attention to.
In my Marlyn Guide Gun and my speghetti Sharps, I have loaded 14 grains of Unique with excellent results. If your worried about dead air space use a small tuff of dacron filler and push it down onto the powder.
Wow man, my dad said they did that smokeless behind black up in the mountains of Colorado, where it could would and did get down to -30. Dad also ran modern magnum shotgun shells in an old LeFever Damascus barrel black powder shotgun. My uncle f'ed the barrel up more with a car door than my dad ever did. Dad may have broken an internal part, or it could have be metal fatigue. The flat springs do look crystallized and the tips are gone. Now to piss you off. My other uncle was running coyote traps and found an old cap and ball up in the east Utah high desert when he checked to see what metal item the tie & drag chain had hit in the grass. For all you PETA people, loads of those leghold traps were stamped US government property.
hi willard my name is chris Washburn im also a blackpowder enthusiast I love watching your videos I do think that smokeless in cap and ball OK in some cases but im also here to say just be careful your the muzzleloader channel I always watch to get information on different types of rifles revolvers and I don't want you to accidentally hurt or kill yourself by mistake I see you as a mentor on blackpowder and I don't know of any other channel that puts out so much information so yeah please be careful with smokeless in a cap and ball flinlock please and thank you again love your channel keep up the good work
You should be out there busting more of these myths. Should make a video about how easy it is to scratch the barrel with the ramrod without a bore guide
Makes me wince every time a u tube shooter throws the ramrod in and out vigorously then trys to shoot for a group! The rifleing at the muzzle gets such a battering. Plastic covered ramrods if you want your gun to last 👍
Don't you guys know that doing that will cause your kids to be born nekid? I know a guy who does this and I have even tried it myself using the same loads he uses (2.5 gr Bullseye .380 ball 36 caliber) but I just don't want to risk it, if I intend to use smokeless loads in my BP revolver I will use a conversion cylinder and it's stronger steel. Even just 2.5 to 3 gr Bullseye and a round ball can make a lot of pressure so I personally won't be doing that anymore, still you guys are doing a great service (notice I didn't say DIS-service!) to the BP community by bringing this out into the open with a common sense discussion and demonstration. There have been several smokeless-in-BP videos using rifles that were loaded to destruction with smokeless, usually after several tries it finally ends by using an INSANE smokeless powder load for any gun and with two or more balls rammed on top of it! Then when the darn thing FINALLY gives up and bursts open we are then told "see there DON'T use smokeless in your BP firearm"! Where are these videos? I don't want to start anything by specifically picking on anyone's video but a quick search should locate a couple of them. Hey that gun you used ain't correct because a 44 caliber Navy was never,,,,, wait, I seem to remember that someone might have already said that!
An Italian channel called Backyard ballistics did a similar video once. He calculated his load using software with a "45 ACP equivalent" case. Is should be fine as long as it's made with modern manufacturing and you stay within the rated pressures. I highly recommend his old videos, the guy is a ballistician and knows his stuff. If you're going to shoot smokeless powder, especially faster burning stuff from a percussion revolver, I suggest you try lighter projectiles to get the full benefit of smokeless.
"There are three kinds of men in this world. The first learns by study. The second by observation. The third however, actually HAS to piss on the electric fence." It's good to know which you are.
I once used 10 grains of shotgun powder in a .45 cal Kentucky rifle. It worked just fine. It came from some old Winchester shotgun shells with the paper case. They were my grandpa's shells.
There are many who comment by repeating things they have heard on TH-cam and read in forums and have never even fired a gun of any type. They repeat cause they think something sounds smart. Iraqveteran 8888 did an interesting video a few years ago showing what it really took to damage a black powder rifle including smokeless and barrel instructions. The result was surprising. Keep up the videos.
great experiment, learned alot i figured it'd either squib or blow up. glad it didnt blow up on ya man! beautiful truck too! such a vibe blackpowder shooting in the old school pickup
I have a original 1851 Colt Navy with one cylinder that was bulged and cracked. This is a family heirloom that my ancestor carried in the US Civil War. A long time ago one of my uncles did the dirty deed with smokeless powder. When I was younger my dad showed me the gun and explained how it was damaged. I wish I knew what powder and how much was used. Dad then carefully heated the bulge and with a press slowly pushed the cylinder bulge back in. Shape was restored also the engraved scene on the cylinder was saved. We never fired the gun.
Considering Estes Energetics (which owns GOEX) has used "military contracts" as the excuse for why only small amounts of powder are coming to retailers, I suspect they do.
You were close enough to a 50/50 mix. Make yourself a batch of powder and mix it 50/50 by weight with smokeless. Load straight from the flask 25-30 grains per chamber compressed load on your 44. Would be interesting to do a full load and having the powder mixed ahead instead of loading separately
I have never posted on your site before but have been watching you guys for quite a while now. Got to say, I have learned more from your experiments and testing than any other source. Fact be known, I modeled my powder processing on all the time and hard work you guys put in to making a powder that is as good, or better than what you can buy, it works!!! Thanks so much for the time yall put in to give all of us an alternative to buying BP that is now so expensive, if you can even get it. I can tell you here in Texas, a pound of Swiss is not even available in any shop, and if you buy it online with the hazmat shipping charge it will cost you $75 or better for a pound! I have recently switched to brass media in my tumbler and man what a difference! So much cleaner than lead balls. Again, thanks so much for your willingness to give your knowledge freely!
%0 years ago when in school a friend had a 36 caliber cap and ball revolver he shot with red dot. If I remember right he put wadded up toilet paper on top of the powder then seated the ball. I recall that it always went off. It has been to long to recall the load but being young and dumb we got away with it.
Well if life wasn't hard it would be easy. And Jake, like me you probably weren't brought up easy. So Hard should be just about normal. Right? You guys are great keep up the good work
the cap pushing the ball forward before the powder lights is creating a low pressure scenario leading to the reduced velocities and the unburnt powder. Its almost creating an artificial large case capacity scenario/ low fill ratio, like if you were to load 4gr into a 45/70.
It makes sense when you think about it, if you keep the loads *reasonable* and don't load 30 grains by volume of smokeless.. it should be fine... The issue when you have "the lowest common denominator" loading it up, thinking they're using BP and throwing in a huge load like 30grains of smokeless in, that would make even some center fire rifles cry. Savage made an inline muzzleloader that was "rated" for smokeless years back, and you could load either BP or smokeless as you saw fit, with recommended loads. I think a load in 45 colt is like 6-8 grains of unique? 45 colt has a pressure of something like ~14k CUP, and BP can be anywhere between 12 and 20, sometimes more in larger guns. I think if you stick to "cowboy loads" and use just a tad bit of common sense, it wouldn't kill you. Might have to try a tad larger load, but slap some cotton or other wadding in there to keep the powder right up against the hole and maybe try a larger heavier bullet to give it time to build more pressure?
Ive used true blue powder for this. It works but i didnt do a torture test. I think if the pistols can handle the conversion cylinders the only thing i see being an issue is the piette or uberti cylinders are made of questionable chinese metal.
@Everything Black Powder Guys, thank you for all your work and sharing, I really do appreciate it. When you were evoking the pain to layer the two different powders, I was wondering if when equal parts it wouldn't work reasonably well to just have the mixed beforehand, you know... less work and all that.
One of many reasons. You can safely load some cartridges with smokeless powder for old blackpowder guns, but you give up lots and lots of performance that way, gallery loads basically. Blackpowder guns are just best used with the good old fashioned.
I thought this too, until I realized that the touchole in a cartridge is slightly larger than the touchole in a cap and ball revolver. It literally comes down to ignition temperature. The slightly larger hole in the cartridge, mixed with the fact that heat transfers better along a brass wall, and the ignition temperature of the primer gases is raised ever so slightly. This is why modern cartridge guns are more reliable as well.... The only thing I would say, is if you choose to modify an existing nipple to test my theory, please go incredibly slow. Tiny amounts of metal being removed from the touchole on a bp nipple can make big differences, and too much will make them useless.
Some time ago I had a 1873 trapdoor, and all my loading books cautioned to only use the specified .45/70 trapdoor loads only. But at the bottom of this 1940 NRA load chart it listed a duplex load of 50 gr. FFg w/ 10gr. of IMR4895. I got 60 pieces of brass w/ the rifle, and rolled up 20 rnds w/ 70gr of Goex. After the 8th or 9th shot the brass started to stick in the chamber and I used the rod bayonet to get them out. Then rolled 20 more w/ BP/4895. What a joy. Shot that 20 and the bore and in side the brass was a thin, dry, light gray deposit. I run a load similar to yours in my .44 rem and colt. So nice to run 2 or 3 wheels and not have a gummy gun.
I have to wonder if pre-mixing evenly the duplex might work as good or better, although keeping the ratios identical is a production-line problem. Something to test, perhaps? Would the paper result in more fouling? Is the smokeless less enough to counter that? Is it different fouling, and hence harder or easier to clean? Enquiring minds, etc, etc. Fascinating video, tho. I had always wondered (as a non-american, testing guns is theoretical at best in my case) if one could put the right amount of smokeless into a black powder weapon, and what the result would be. I am thrilled to know my theory that you could was right. ;-]
@@llearch I use hair curling paper to make paper cartridges. It is stronger than cigarette paper and holds up better plus it burns almost completely when fired. I haven't messed with duplex loads and have no intention to but I see no reason why it couldn't work. I also add a wax cookie just above the powder and under the ball for lubing the barrel.
I have been using 4f black and triple 777 2f for years now. One for cost and more energy. A can of 4f will give thousands of shots when you're using 4-5 grains per shot. Triple 7 77 I can buy anywhere. Smokeless needs a heck of a hot spark to light. So, to improve ignition, I started using 4f from my pan charger down the barrel of my flintlock guns .or percussion. I use a brass tube to get my 4f to the back of the barrel where I want it with no waste. Than my triple 777 on top. But you do need a gun with a patent breech plug for best performance. Any gun with just a hole in the side of the barrel is not ideal. A bess, for example .A cap and ball is just an inline ignition and ideal for duplex loads. But use your head or lose it, folks😂
I love that someone actually tested this out, I can’t see a practical reason to load this way but I do see the appeal of getting 800+ fps out of 1/3rd the total powder you’d normally need to launch a .44 round ball. So maybe a good thing to know in a powder shortage
Back in the 1990's, more closer to 2000 I did this with an 1860 Army. And when I told the guy I had loaded a duplex load, he about loaded his pants then promptly vacated the general area. Course when I did that duplex load, I went with about a 20 grain black powder charge and a 5 grain smokeless load did not have any problems. I also did not do that again, not because it was not fun but more because of the fear I saw in people who knew I was shooting a duplex load in an 1860 Army.
Mr. Everything- Applause for your experimentation! As long as the revolver did not dis-assemble itself and your finger count is the same pre- and post-experiment it seems like some duplex loads may not be as dangerous as advertised. For me though I reckon that I will stay with using black powder in my black powder revolvers (I've got cartridge revolvers for smokeless powder). Bob
(Setting aside fools that don't adjust the quantity when switching powders.) Most smokeless actually has a smoother pressure curve shape that is less hard on the gun for a given potential energy. Black tends to spike the pressure really hard at the start then taper off.
The same concept is used in 16"-50 naval guns. A small amount of black powder (360 grams) is used in the rearmost bag to ensure ignition of the D846 propellant.
1. It would be interesting to run, say, some amount of smokeless powder through a modern "black powder only" gun made with modern steel (check with the manufacturer which grade of steel they're using). And magna-fluxed periodically throughout the test (Say after 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 750 and 1000 rounds to check for cracking in the steel.) Basically a pistol that's cheap enough to sacrifice to destructive testing. 2. Cap => black powder=> smokeless powder. (Where "=>" means "ignites") Is very similar to how the ignition train which American 16" naval gun shells use for detonation. Pistol hammer hits cap =≥ black powder => smokeless powder => high explosive. The more explosive the material, the more stable the chemistry and so the more difficult it is to ignite to explosion. Nitrogen triodide is extremely unstable (can be set off by touching with a feather) and very low power. Mercury filminate and other modern igniters used in caps and primers are still rather sensitive (remember paper caps for cap guns?) and still low power, but enough spark to ignite black powder. Black powder is relatively unstable very low power & easy to ignite. Smokeless is medium power and medium ignition requirement. High explosive are VERY stable and have high ignition requirements and yield high power. 3. Because smokeless powder is more difficult to ignite than black powder, the igniter in modern rifle and pistol primers produces more energy for ignition than mercury fulminate or whatever is being used in the caps made for black powder. So I think the way to use ONLY smokeless powder is to get or refill your caps using the explosive material used in primers meant for smokeless powder.
Low charges of Unique would be a way to do it. I love Unique in 38 Special, 357 Magnum, cast 9mm and cast 40 S&W, and powder puff cast loads in rifles. Red Dot is good in 38’s too but it’s done got scarce around here and I’m under half a pound, maybe only 4oz or so.
Thank you for thinking outside the box, and taking reasonable risks to help us all know more about our guns and what they can do. I agree that the deviation in fps is probably from the ball moving forward a smidge and loosing a little compression. Yes they do still use a little bp in naval gun charges.
I did this more than 30 years ago when I run out of black powder and there wasn't anywhere I could get some without travelling for some hours, but had a bag of blanks - 7.62×51mm NATO - from my Military service. Although I didn't use it in a revolver, I used it in a Pedersoli Hawken cap-lock rifle. Worked just fine and didn't do any damage to the rifle.
As I watched your video, I could hear the sounds of BP purists hitting the floor when you loaded smokeless in a cap and ball. lol I enjoyed the video because I have wondered about smokeless powder use in a cap and ball revolver. Now I don't have to wonder anymore. Thanks for the time you guys spent putting this together. Phil
Hi, here in the UK we have somewhat restrictive legislation around handguns... We are allowed to have muzzle loading revolvers though, and we have developed muzzle loaders that use smokeless powder and 209 primers!
i use an obsolete powder from IMR SR4759 good slow burning powder(no pressure spike) i load my martini henry cartridge with 25 grains of SR4759 then some paper as a barrier, then i use walnut media to fill the empty space then a fiber wad and finally a paperpatched 485 grain 45cal spire point bullet.... i can hit targets consistently at 200 yards. with that load. oh and i use magnum primers to ensure ignition.
As a kinda fudd, what i was always told about this was people were loading smokeless (by volume), with the same amount as they would black. For instance, 20gr of unique. And then blowing up their guns. My grandfather told me about duplex loads, for black powser cartridge guns. It could also possibly have started with semi smokless powder, the lore that is.
This explains the earthquake this morning! Must've been a million Fudds stomping their feet, knowing with 100 % fuddlore certainty what's gonna happen.
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@@Everythingblackpowder , How would it have worked with a filler or wad on top of just the smokeless powder. Would compressing the powder against the cap have increased the amount burned?
I suppose it would’ve allowed it to make more pressure and burn more of the smokeless, but it didn’t help all that much when we seated the ball all the way against the unique
@@Everythingblackpowder Given that you're getting the cap spitting the ball into the forcing cone without touching off the powder, _potentially_ you could force the pressure to build more by using a slightly larger ball, but that's very much a *'From Behind A Tree With A String'* kind of idea.
Or do it with a cheap musket build kit you don't care too much about, with the long and enclosed barrel it might work better, but still with the whole string and tree thing.
Tune in next week when Willard runs with scissors.
😂
Run with the blades closed in your hand. I did this once in front of my art teacher and he died laughing.
🤣👍
I read that and thought of Edward's scissors' hands.
@@1885win I've had similar results
Cap & Ball torture
Nothing like a little CBT to start the day off
Omfg😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😅
BWAHAHA
US Navy powder bags for the old battleships had quilted black powder patches on the front side to ensure good ignition of the smokeless.
Red bags!
Thank you
Artillery shells still use black power to ignite the rest of the charge. Its the only reason goex is still in business.
The 16" powder bags were 600 pounds of smokeless, and TEN pounds of Black on the AFT end. The primer ignited the BLACK powder first. I was a BT on the USS New Jersey 1985-1987.
@@someguy325es Plus the thousands of people that use Goex in their blackpowder firearms.
You're right about artillery using BP to set off the real charge--in fact, that's *exactly* what Goex is formulated for (Brett Gibbons is an Ordnance Dept. officer and he talks about this in his video about BP). I saw an article on a web site years ago from a guy who talked about how to develop a smokeless load for BP weapons, so I knew this could be done safely, but I think the real issue is that we have to tell people not to do it to keep some Gomer from overdoing it, and I *know* for a fact, have seen the test results showing it, that heavier charges can blow up revolvers, splitting the chambers wide open. But you always have to tailor everything to the lowest common denominator, and it's easier to say "you can't do this" than it is to say "well, you can do this if you're careful, and if your weapon is in good shape, and if your weapon doesn't have a tiny flaw (which we don't test for because it won't matter if you use it the way we said to), etc., etc. Besides, BP is just more fun! Nice to see you continuing to cause people's heads to explode, however--you do love stirring the shit! I am *not* however, going to read the comments below, though, because I'm not sure my blood pressure meds will be able to handle that.
Thanks, Hugh
He does love to do that lol
Remember folks, Jake is the guy who showed us that the "pipe Bomb" theory was bullshit too.
Great video. It did not suck. As a result there is no need to make my own damn video.
Nice truck!
Where people get into trouble is when they load smokeless with a black powder measure and fill the cylinder 😮
Yep. The difference in volume is an important concern.
That’s what I always thought. It’s more an issue of modern revolver rounds only need like 4-10 grains depending on cartridge but cap and ball revolvers are made to hold 30 grains
I think that's definitely where it came from. Used to be for reloading with black powder, the case length determined the amount. You stuffed the case full, jammed the bullet on top, and away you go.
Do that with fancy new smokeless(especially early smokeless), kaboom.
I was way ahead as "I Know the cu of avalible charge space per bullet style per gun cylinder's average, but not each of six, do math, fill with diy oiled flower or corn? or such, no balls may move? Not dead space? my charge is ratio mixed of one final in field measured charge. more testing soon. but I will not make "my own" DV!
"You woke up and decided to piss off the internet?"
"Yeah."
"I'm here for it!"
Sounds like something my Brother would say. Ahh, Brothers are the best.
When smokeless powder was introduced, the priming compounds of the time didn't work ideally. 22 match ammo for example was not so accurate with smokeless. They found that if they mixed the ingredients of both black and smokeless into something called semi-smokeless or the trade name Lesmok, they got clean, uniform burning and only a little more powder fowling than straight smokeless.
George Frost discovered early in the conversion to smokeless for 22lr, that crimp pressure was the key. He started measuring the "pull weight" of his rimfire cartridges and came up with about 45lb pull weight being the ideal. Depending on the powder, it still is. When using a very fast powder like bullseye pull weight is not nearly as critical, but because of the nature of it's burn rate, that fast of a powder is not ideal for 22lr. A medium burn powder with a heavier crimp works best.
EBP, I figured out why you shoot these type of loads left handed. In case it goes sideways you don't want to lose your dominant hand. 😆😎
When I used to do this kind of stuff, back before the web was invented, I used to tie the gun to a fence post and pull the trigger with a string. And it worked, bc I still have all ten fingers! 🙂
Also
makes it hard to pick your nose
😄
@@bunkstagner298
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friend's nose.
I want to thank you all for another interesting and informative video!
I have seen people have success with 5 gr. Of clays with corn meal filler,but no crony to check velocity.
Thanks again! 👍🤠
I've seen videos where they stuffed unbelievable amounts of black in a rifle and the results were a tremendous amount of recoil, enough to break the stock in the fixture it was in, but no damage to the barrel itself. I've also seen a demonstration of how dangerous it is to put smokeless powder in a black powder rifle. It took a ridiculous amount of smokeless powder to blow up that rifle, but when it did finally blow, it was catastrophic, a bomb to say the least. I'm not going to try either, but many old black powder rounds were and still are loaded with smokeless powder. To agree with you, I think it's all common sense, how much of which.
I was really surprised you never thought to use filler. I use used coffee grounds to fill up the empty space. Then the ball seats normally and holds the powder in place - even more important with these duplex loads. Also seating the ball that deep means it has a big jump before it hits the rifling - so accuracy probably was not great.
I’m full of surprises…
If you don't seat the bullet all the way against the powder no need for fillers, an empty space is nothing alarming really but I agree I "feels" more right. Never happened to me though I always fill my cylinders because my BP is not very dense
@@yannickramouillet3742 In this case it would be to hold the black powder and smokeless in their relative positions to each other. Basically Triplex. WAY too much work to be practical for anything but fun.
There are other compositions you can use which are neither black powder OR smokeless, but this isn't he place for that.
Love the Chevy Big Window! one of my Fav's! Brother!!!
Ok, here's your new motto,
"Doing the crazy shit so you don't have to"
Keep it comkng, I love it
I have always wondered about mixing smokeless and black powder in a C&B revolver. I throughly enjoyed this video. Thank you for making and sharing it!
Thank you
Face shields are a thing
My uncles use to do this ,combination for hunting I never heard of not using smokeless my family has always done it. They also have pinched the caps thats how I was taught .the thing I learn watching your videos love them .
4.5 gn of Unique sounds like a mild load in 9mm Para with a 124 gn bullet.
In .38 SPL, with 148 grain wadcutters, anything much slower than "Bullseye" will NOT burn fully. As the primer goes off and the powder starts to "ignite" the bullet moves forward, ESPECIALLY the polymer-coatedtype.
This effectively increases the combustion-chamber volume ans LOWERS pressure.
In turn, quite a lot of the initial tiddly powder charge does NOT ignite; it just leaves unburned powder all over the insides of the gun.
Years ago I had a Smith and Wesson Model 52; the semi-auto .38 SPL wadcutter target pistol. With Unique, I just got a gun full of unburned powder and bullets downrange. All that detritus simply slowed the cycling to the point it stopped functioning.
After a few "interesting" range sessions. I came to the conclusion that the best powder would be a "fast" one.
They don't get much faster than "Bullseye".
It was a revelation. Consistent velocities, reliable operation and hits on the 25yd target: WINNER.
SO......
How far down the cylinder do you ram the balls? If the powder is sloshing around in that comparatively large .44 chamber, I can understand why ignition with pure smokeless is "erratic", at best.
How "hot' re the specified "percussion caps, compared to center-fire pistil primers?
LOTS of variables in the air in this project. BUT, somebody had to ask..............And here you are!
ignition issues: use a filler (cotton fluff for example) between the projectile and the cap. It'll keep the powder against the cap for ignition inside the chamber.
That is the answer!!
That was my first reaction, however, that is not the problem here, if you load 5 gr of smokeless in a 45 Colt there is a huge amount of air space inside, exactly the same as in this experiment, I believe the problem is the lack of pressure due to the open hole in the nipple, a 45 Colt cartridge is a sealed chamber that allows pressure to build up inside, in this experiment the smokeless is in an open chamber, just like burning out in the open, it does not explode. Stay safe! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 That's possible. Crimping the cap on the nipple can help.
I came in late, but caught most of the experiment. Interesting! Was thinking that perhaps a cream of wheat filler might help those deep seated loads. Thanks for the non sucky video, Jake!!
Interesting. I sure don't intend to do this, but it's still interesting.
It's been done before with no negative results
Harnessing your inner Elmer Keith, huh? I can dig. ^.-.^
King’s Semi-Smokeless…
WELL DONE Jake .. So far the comments are sensible & lacking the expected outrage eh.
You reminded me of 'LESMOK' that was used mostly as a .22 Rimfire load from around 1900 up to 1947 - a semi-smokeless mix of BP with 10-20% nitrocellulose - so it has all been done before by professionals. I guess the "issue" mostly is in the variables such as old weak guns and WEAK BRAINS that lack caution and not so common COMMON SENSE ?
Thank you.
I had an old Iver Johnson 16 gauge Shotgun I picked up at a swap n shop, the guy I bought it off of knew nothing about it, it was in rough shape. I went to Cabella's and bought some 16 gauge #7 target load, and put many rounds through the old gun.. I took it to a buddy of mine, who has a firearm training school (yes we have them in Canada). Anyways, he had a friend of his there on this day, who knew old & classic firearms, and told me that it was an made between 1909 & 1919 black powder rifle, and I was incredibly lucky it didn't blow up on me.
What I found to be cool about this was that it kept the revolver a lot cleaner than if full black powder was used. So, the smokeless did its job.
When you got the process figured out, the little bit of black behind the larger charge of smokeless and tight seating the ball, well, that was a load that was up where .38 Special and .45 ACP are operating. Not too shabby!
I have never needed anything stronger than 777s in cap locks. I would say try this with trail boss, but i think trail boss went out of business. ... on a side note, thats a pretty cool old truck, and i think it would be great if you would show it to us sometime. Great video, as always !
Thank you.
I second the tour of the pickup!👍
@@Everythingblackpowdermaybe you should wear a helmut or other protective gear when experimenting? Id hate to see the videos stop because of an injury.
That's an interesting point, Trail Boss is a purposely low bulk density smokeless powder. Ive put 14g of Trail Boss through an Ruger Old Army with conicals, 1300+ fps. Not worried about the frame or cylinder, my thought is blowing out the nipple threads.
@@schinderiapraemeturus6239i have not seen nor been able to find trail boss in several years now. I know its a fantastic powder tho.
Excellent video. Love to see a follow up with an inline rifle using modern primers. Maybe copy 50-70 loads and seat the projectile with the same depth as the cartridge. All the destruction testing I've seen with muzzle loaders used wildly inappropriate loads for even a modern rifle.
Im shocked and distraught. Gunpowder in a gun shoots perfectly fine... My uncle's brother's buddy had a roommate in the 70s whos grandad shot a lot of BP and he said smokeless powder would never work in a gun!!!!
My "neighbors bird dog" told me his old master blew up, smelled like smokeless in the morning. Darn dog would only talk with me after his trama, I smell like eggs.
Grandad was probably correct; we all know that smokeless powder is just a fad.
I wish smokeless was just a fad black powder is way more fun😂
You did better than other attempts I’ve seen at trying to duplex load blackpowder/smokeless. Usually either not enough velocity or getting into explosive cylinder range. I guess the powder/caliber choice. 861 fps is great, but I think I would prefer to overload blackpowder, as far as safety is concerned.
Smokeless them if you got 'em ...
Good day to all.
Get the smokeless down near the flash hole and keep it there and it will light. With that said, Popcorn is ready! :)
Same issue that cartridges have with low case capacity loads.
I love Unique. It's a very forgiving powder, and if I could only have one powder to load with, it would be Unique. As you found out though, Unique does not like light loadings. It doesn't burn completely and leaves a mess. It is definitely happier with medium to stout loads. Good Video!
Thank you
I believe artillery uses the Siberian method a bit of blackpowder to set off the regular propellant.
That would explain why Estes Energetics (which owns GOEX) puts most of their production to military contracts.
Not just naval guns but all artillery rounds. blackpowder is used to ignite the smokeless powder. Keep in mind that the grains size of the smokeless powder is about the size of your little finger nail cubed
Well ACTUALLY Colt DID experiment with a 44 1851 and at least one prototype was indeed made. I have an extensive collection of Italian clones including a couple of "fantasy" guns. Great vid Jake. You are a better man then I :)
Oh yes, I’m aware. I believe Colt made some 20 odd prototypes in 40 and 44 cal but if I mentioned that it would have really ruffled some feathers.
Of course smokeless powder can be used in a black powder firearm if the loading is done such that the maximum chamber pressure is within normal range for the weapon. If you follow a standard 45LC smokeless cowboy loading and seat the ball at the proper depth, it should work fine. The problem is if too much powder is added or the bullet is seated to far down in the chamber, the pressure will be too high and cause the gun to explode. No black powder is needed for that to work. I've seen it done using an inert filler on top of the powder and using an air gap with the bullet depth carefully measured. It worked both ways. As a rule, the average dumb person who tries that will blow their hand off, which is why people say NAY, NAY, don't use smokeless powder....
Theory....... The tiny hole in the nipple limits the flash to the extent that the smokeless won't ignite. The flash hole in a metallic cartridge is much larger. The ball cannot be pushed into the cylinder far enough to take up the air space and put the powder right near the priming flash.
I did read many years ago that the Brits did this with fairy dust but used a filler to hold the powder at the back of the cylinder.
To generate the full performance and MV of BP, smokeless would need over twice the peak pressure, and that might damage the pistol.
I have seen a Remington taken apart by a full charge of smokeless... the Utuber "Cap'n'ball" did a video on it. Not sure what the powder was from memory.....
The big "Kaboom" seems to be the product of a full charge of smokeless which would be an overload in a cartridge such as a 45 Colt in any case.
A thought occurs.... why not blend a bit of smokeless with the BP, use normal charges (say up to 25) so loading would be easy and run very clean....
Smart lady .
Caps also aren't sealed into a case forcing all of the primer energy down the flash hole.. the bp flash hole has to be small as it's a pressure vent to the chamber. A cartridge flash hole doesn't need to hold pressure to launch a projectile so it can be larger.
Overall, I'm impressed with your understanding of ballistics for a woman, but you never want to pre-mix smokeless with black powder. The reason being is the densities are different and you will get inconsistent loads every single time inevitably. This will range from huge swings in velocity all the way to potential kaboom. Bye bye gun and possibly fingers 😮
@@darinchick3234 Dude come on you don’t know anything about firearms …
@@panchopistola8298 try it for yourself. Mix smokeless powder and black powder in a bag and shake it up. It doesn't mix well is what I'm saying If there's a better way to do it than the guy is doing in the video that I'm all ears, but pre-mixing it together in a bag is not the way. Also you don't know what I know dummy
The guy that taught me how to blackpowder shoot used to use 2400 in his .54 as a deer load....he always said 2400 had the same pressure curve as black powder when loaded to the same velocity with the same bullet.....dunno how much truth there was to that theory but considering i have that rifle now it didn't do it any harm
Absolutely great piece!
One thing I would try is coating the unique with BP dust (5f plus powder) then load just the "coated"
You threw away the ring of lead? 1 billion of those and you could cast another lead roundball…
I love the banter between you and your brother!
So normally I look at unique as something relatively easy to ignite and volume agnostic (I run 12g of unique in a 45-70 case, which means tons of empty space). But of course that's with a far stronger primer. I think that you're right on the powder speculation: Something super fast and again relatively volume agnostic (bullseye, titegroup, etc) might be easier to ignite, and therefore produce better results.
Interesting results, most of my reloading is with more forgiving powders that don't care as much about primers and this sort of thing refocuses my attention to how primers can impact things that I normally don't pay much attention to.
In my Marlyn Guide Gun and my speghetti Sharps, I have loaded 14 grains of Unique with excellent results. If your worried about dead air space use a small tuff of dacron filler and push it down onto the powder.
@@denisdegamon8224That would be my thought, Dacron or Cream of Wheat or something. Like you would use for a reduced load in a cartridge.
Loved the intro :) Brilliant discussion with evidence - all the things that make your presentations infinitely watchable... learning along the way :)
Wow man, my dad said they did that smokeless behind black up in the mountains of Colorado, where it could would and did get down to -30. Dad also ran modern magnum shotgun shells in an old LeFever Damascus barrel black powder shotgun. My uncle f'ed the barrel up more with a car door than my dad ever did. Dad may have broken an internal part, or it could have be metal fatigue. The flat springs do look crystallized and the tips are gone. Now to piss you off. My other uncle was running coyote traps and found an old cap and ball up in the east Utah high desert when he checked to see what metal item the tie & drag chain had hit in the grass. For all you PETA people, loads of those leghold traps were stamped US government property.
hi willard my name is chris Washburn im also a blackpowder enthusiast I love watching your videos I do think that smokeless in cap and ball OK in some cases but im also here to say just be careful your the muzzleloader channel I always watch to get information on different types of rifles revolvers and I don't want you to accidentally hurt or kill yourself by mistake I see you as a mentor on blackpowder and I don't know of any other channel that puts out so much information so yeah please be careful with smokeless in a cap and ball flinlock please and thank you again love your channel keep up the good work
Thanks for your concern
I love the hype man behind the camera
Thank You! You have answered a lot of questions! Good work, keep up the testing.
You should be out there busting more of these myths. Should make a video about how easy it is to scratch the barrel with the ramrod without a bore guide
Makes me wince every time a u tube shooter throws the ramrod in and out vigorously then trys to shoot for a group! The rifleing at the muzzle gets such a battering. Plastic covered ramrods if you want your gun to last 👍
YESSssss! Bart would do it! got a tiolet to swirl the rong way?
I’ve always wondered if the “black powder only” was more for the legality of shipping them through the mail anyway.
Don't you guys know that doing that will cause your kids to be born nekid?
I know a guy who does this and I have even tried it myself using the same loads he uses (2.5 gr Bullseye .380 ball 36 caliber) but I just don't want to risk it, if I intend to use smokeless loads in my BP revolver I will use a conversion cylinder and it's stronger steel. Even just 2.5 to 3 gr Bullseye and a round ball can make a lot of pressure so I personally won't be doing that anymore, still you guys are doing a great service (notice I didn't say DIS-service!) to the BP community by bringing this out into the open with a common sense discussion and demonstration. There have been several smokeless-in-BP videos using rifles that were loaded to destruction with smokeless, usually after several tries it finally ends by using an INSANE smokeless powder load for any gun and with two or more balls rammed on top of it! Then when the darn thing FINALLY gives up and bursts open we are then told "see there DON'T use smokeless in your BP firearm"! Where are these videos? I don't want to start anything by specifically picking on anyone's video but a quick search should locate a couple of them.
Hey that gun you used ain't correct because a 44 caliber Navy was never,,,,, wait, I seem to remember that someone might have already said that!
😂
An Italian channel called Backyard ballistics did a similar video once. He calculated his load using software with a "45 ACP equivalent" case. Is should be fine as long as it's made with modern manufacturing and you stay within the rated pressures. I highly recommend his old videos, the guy is a ballistician and knows his stuff.
If you're going to shoot smokeless powder, especially faster burning stuff from a percussion revolver, I suggest you try lighter projectiles to get the full benefit of smokeless.
"There are three kinds of men in this world.
The first learns by study.
The second by observation.
The third however, actually HAS to piss on the electric fence."
It's good to know which you are.
lol okay then
I once used 10 grains of shotgun powder in a .45 cal Kentucky rifle. It worked just fine. It came from some old Winchester shotgun shells with the paper case. They were my grandpa's shells.
My experience with unique has always been that it likes compression. The more compressed it is, the cleaner and more efficiently it burns.
This checks out with my usage in 45 Colt. The lighter you load it, the dirtier it gets and the more unburnt particles you get everywhere.
There are many who comment by repeating things they have heard on TH-cam and read in forums and have never even fired a gun of any type. They repeat cause they think something sounds smart. Iraqveteran 8888 did an interesting video a few years ago showing what it really took to damage a black powder rifle including smokeless and barrel instructions. The result was surprising. Keep up the videos.
great experiment, learned alot i figured it'd either squib or blow up. glad it didnt blow up on ya man! beautiful truck too! such a vibe blackpowder shooting in the old school pickup
Thank you
I have a original 1851 Colt Navy with one cylinder that was bulged and cracked. This is a family heirloom that my ancestor carried in the US Civil War. A long time ago one of my uncles did the dirty deed with smokeless powder. When I was younger my dad showed me the gun and explained how it was damaged. I wish I knew what powder and how much was used. Dad then carefully heated the bulge and with a press slowly pushed the cylinder bulge back in. Shape was restored also the engraved scene on the cylinder was saved. We never fired the gun.
Duelest 1954 (Mike ) did an episode on goex being the mil spec for artillery bag charge ignition powder . I think all big guns still work that way .
Considering Estes Energetics (which owns GOEX) has used "military contracts" as the excuse for why only small amounts of powder are coming to retailers, I suspect they do.
You were close enough to a 50/50 mix. Make yourself a batch of powder and mix it 50/50 by weight with smokeless. Load straight from the flask 25-30 grains per chamber compressed load on your 44. Would be interesting to do a full load and having the powder mixed ahead instead of loading separately
With the smokeless, it becomes a bunny gun. Perfect for hunting rabbits.
I have never posted on your site before but have been watching you guys for quite a while now. Got to say, I have learned more from your experiments and testing than any other source. Fact be known, I modeled my powder processing on all the time and hard work you guys put in to making a powder that is as good, or better than what you can buy, it works!!! Thanks so much for the time yall put in to give all of us an alternative to buying BP that is now so expensive, if you can even get it. I can tell you here in Texas, a pound of Swiss is not even available in any shop, and if you buy it online with the hazmat shipping charge it will cost you $75 or better for a pound! I have recently switched to brass media in my tumbler and man what a difference! So much cleaner than lead balls. Again, thanks so much for your willingness to give your knowledge freely!
Glad to hear it. Thank you!
BRING ON THE CHAOS!
I had my Walker Colt rechambered to a .454. I push .457 balls when I crimp with 70 grains of black powder. Monster!
%0 years ago when in school a friend had a 36 caliber cap and ball revolver he shot with red dot. If I remember right he put wadded up toilet paper on top of the powder then seated the ball. I recall that it always went off. It has been to long to recall the load but being young and dumb we got away with it.
Well if life wasn't hard it would be easy.
And Jake, like me you probably weren't brought up easy.
So Hard should be just about normal. Right?
You guys are great keep up the good work
You must have a good hand surgeon, I can't see any of the stiches.
😂
the cap pushing the ball forward before the powder lights is creating a low pressure scenario leading to the reduced velocities and the unburnt powder. Its almost creating an artificial large case capacity scenario/ low fill ratio, like if you were to load 4gr into a 45/70.
Then, why did it just barely work when we pushed the ball all the way down against the powder?
It makes sense when you think about it, if you keep the loads *reasonable* and don't load 30 grains by volume of smokeless.. it should be fine... The issue when you have "the lowest common denominator" loading it up, thinking they're using BP and throwing in a huge load like 30grains of smokeless in, that would make even some center fire rifles cry.
Savage made an inline muzzleloader that was "rated" for smokeless years back, and you could load either BP or smokeless as you saw fit, with recommended loads.
I think a load in 45 colt is like 6-8 grains of unique? 45 colt has a pressure of something like ~14k CUP, and BP can be anywhere between 12 and 20, sometimes more in larger guns. I think if you stick to "cowboy loads" and use just a tad bit of common sense, it wouldn't kill you.
Might have to try a tad larger load, but slap some cotton or other wadding in there to keep the powder right up against the hole and maybe try a larger heavier bullet to give it time to build more pressure?
30 grs of any smokeless will disintegrate a Colt 45 chambered gun of any sort.
You are correct on the naval charges using black powder to ignite the smokeless. Any medium-large bore artillery uses black powder in its charge.
Ive used true blue powder for this. It works but i didnt do a torture test. I think if the pistols can handle the conversion cylinders the only thing i see being an issue is the piette or uberti cylinders are made of questionable chinese metal.
Good point
@Everything Black Powder Guys, thank you for all your work and sharing, I really do appreciate it.
When you were evoking the pain to layer the two different powders, I was wondering if when equal parts it wouldn't work reasonably well to just have the mixed beforehand, you know... less work and all that.
Maybe they say “never use smokeless powder” because it just won’t work 😂😂
Fair enough
One of many reasons. You can safely load some cartridges with smokeless powder for old blackpowder guns, but you give up lots and lots of performance that way, gallery loads basically. Blackpowder guns are just best used with the good old fashioned.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine agreed
I thought this too, until I realized that the touchole in a cartridge is slightly larger than the touchole in a cap and ball revolver. It literally comes down to ignition temperature. The slightly larger hole in the cartridge, mixed with the fact that heat transfers better along a brass wall, and the ignition temperature of the primer gases is raised ever so slightly. This is why modern cartridge guns are more reliable as well....
The only thing I would say, is if you choose to modify an existing nipple to test my theory, please go incredibly slow. Tiny amounts of metal being removed from the touchole on a bp nipple can make big differences, and too much will make them useless.
Some time ago I had a 1873 trapdoor, and all my loading books cautioned to only use the specified .45/70 trapdoor loads only. But at the bottom of this 1940 NRA load chart it listed a duplex load of 50 gr. FFg w/ 10gr. of IMR4895. I got 60 pieces of brass w/ the rifle, and rolled up 20 rnds w/ 70gr of Goex. After the 8th or 9th shot the brass started to stick in the chamber and I used the rod bayonet to get them out. Then rolled 20 more w/ BP/4895. What a joy. Shot that 20 and the bore and in side the brass was a thin, dry, light gray deposit. I run a load similar to yours in my .44 rem and colt. So nice to run 2 or 3 wheels and not have a gummy gun.
Maybe paper cartridges would be a little more convenient with a duplex load? It would load faster anyway.
Excellent idea
I have to wonder if pre-mixing evenly the duplex might work as good or better, although keeping the ratios identical is a production-line problem. Something to test, perhaps? Would the paper result in more fouling? Is the smokeless less enough to counter that? Is it different fouling, and hence harder or easier to clean? Enquiring minds, etc, etc.
Fascinating video, tho. I had always wondered (as a non-american, testing guns is theoretical at best in my case) if one could put the right amount of smokeless into a black powder weapon, and what the result would be. I am thrilled to know my theory that you could was right. ;-]
@@llearch I use hair curling paper to make paper cartridges. It is stronger than cigarette paper and holds up better plus it burns almost completely when fired. I haven't messed with duplex loads and have no intention to but I see no reason why it couldn't work. I also add a wax cookie just above the powder and under the ball for lubing the barrel.
@@paulkopacz5051 Awesome information, thank you. Good to know about the complete burn factor, and the wax is a smart idea.
I have been using 4f black and triple 777 2f for years now.
One for cost and more energy. A can of 4f will give thousands of shots when you're using 4-5 grains per shot. Triple 7 77 I can buy anywhere. Smokeless needs a heck of a hot spark to light. So, to improve ignition, I started using 4f from my pan charger down the barrel of my flintlock guns .or percussion. I use a brass tube to get my 4f to the back of the barrel where I want it with no waste. Than my triple 777 on top. But you do need a gun with a patent breech plug for best performance. Any gun with just a hole in the side of the barrel is not ideal. A bess, for example .A cap and ball is just an inline ignition and ideal for duplex loads. But use your head or lose it, folks😂
Very interesting
But ---some dummies would try a cylinder filled with smokeless and have differing results from level 🙄 headed people!?
I love that someone actually tested this out, I can’t see a practical reason to load this way but I do see the appeal of getting 800+ fps out of 1/3rd the total powder you’d normally need to launch a .44 round ball. So maybe a good thing to know in a powder shortage
Back in the 1990's, more closer to 2000 I did this with an 1860 Army. And when I told the guy I had loaded a duplex load, he about loaded his pants then promptly vacated the general area. Course when I did that duplex load, I went with about a 20 grain black powder charge and a 5 grain smokeless load did not have any problems. I also did not do that again, not because it was not fun but more because of the fear I saw in people who knew I was shooting a duplex load in an 1860 Army.
How about match heads?
Mr. Everything- Applause for your experimentation! As long as the revolver did not dis-assemble itself and your finger count is the same pre- and post-experiment it seems like some duplex loads may not be as dangerous as advertised. For me though I reckon that I will stay with using black powder in my black powder revolvers (I've got cartridge revolvers for smokeless powder). Bob
(Setting aside fools that don't adjust the quantity when switching powders.) Most smokeless actually has a smoother pressure curve shape that is less hard on the gun for a given potential energy. Black tends to spike the pressure really hard at the start then taper off.
Also adds to the destroyed myth of seating 😮 nicely played love the educational value
Thank you
To prevent the powders from mixing, maybe try some paper between them. Either treated or rolling paper so it burns up.
The same concept is used in 16"-50 naval guns. A small amount of black powder (360 grams) is used in the rearmost bag to ensure ignition of the D846 propellant.
As well as in the train in 5"38 and 5"54 naval rifle powder cases.
i actually like the idea of what yer doing but very important not to over charge
1. It would be interesting to run, say, some amount of smokeless powder through a modern "black powder only" gun made with modern steel (check with the manufacturer which grade of steel they're using). And magna-fluxed periodically throughout the test
(Say after 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 750 and 1000 rounds to check for cracking in the steel.)
Basically a pistol that's cheap enough to sacrifice to destructive testing.
2.
Cap => black powder=> smokeless powder. (Where "=>" means "ignites")
Is very similar to how the ignition train which American 16" naval gun shells use for detonation.
Pistol hammer hits cap =≥ black powder => smokeless powder => high explosive.
The more explosive the material, the more stable the chemistry and so the more difficult it is to ignite to explosion.
Nitrogen triodide is extremely unstable (can be set off by touching with a feather) and very low power.
Mercury filminate and other modern igniters used in caps and primers are still rather sensitive (remember paper caps for cap guns?) and still low power, but enough spark to ignite black powder.
Black powder is relatively unstable very low power & easy to ignite.
Smokeless is medium power and medium ignition requirement.
High explosive are VERY stable and have high ignition requirements and yield high power.
3. Because smokeless powder is more difficult to ignite than black powder, the igniter in modern rifle and pistol primers produces more energy for ignition than mercury fulminate or whatever is being used in the caps made for black powder.
So I think the way to use ONLY smokeless powder is to get or refill your caps using the explosive material used in primers meant for smokeless powder.
“Don’t pinch the caps”??? Those are the guys running around with 3 caps on the cylinder, & 3 caps nobody will ever see again.
Low charges of Unique would be a way to do it. I love Unique in 38 Special, 357 Magnum, cast 9mm and cast 40 S&W, and powder puff cast loads in rifles. Red Dot is good in 38’s too but it’s done got scarce around here and I’m under half a pound, maybe only 4oz or so.
Thank you for thinking outside the box, and taking reasonable risks to help us all know more about our guns and what they can do. I agree that the deviation in fps is probably from the ball moving forward a smidge and loosing a little compression. Yes they do still use a little bp in naval gun charges.
I did this more than 30 years ago when I run out of black powder and there wasn't anywhere I could get some without travelling for some hours, but had a bag of blanks - 7.62×51mm NATO - from my Military service.
Although I didn't use it in a revolver, I used it in a Pedersoli Hawken cap-lock rifle.
Worked just fine and didn't do any damage to the rifle.
As I watched your video, I could hear the sounds of BP purists hitting the floor when you loaded smokeless in a cap and ball. lol I enjoyed the video because I have wondered about smokeless powder use in a cap and ball revolver. Now I don't have to wonder anymore. Thanks for the time you guys spent putting this together. Phil
😂
In my big bore rifles (charcoal burner) I have successfully used 4198 and 5744 with the 4198 being very consistent.
Hi, here in the UK we have somewhat restrictive legislation around handguns... We are allowed to have muzzle loading revolvers though, and we have developed muzzle loaders that use smokeless powder and 209 primers!
i am also into black powder revolver and rifles im intrigued
i use an obsolete powder from IMR SR4759 good slow burning powder(no pressure spike) i load my martini henry cartridge with 25 grains of SR4759 then some paper as a barrier, then i use walnut media to fill the empty space then a fiber wad and finally a paperpatched 485 grain 45cal spire point bullet.... i can hit targets consistently at 200 yards. with that load. oh and i use magnum primers to ensure ignition.
As a kinda fudd, what i was always told about this was people were loading smokeless (by volume), with the same amount as they would black. For instance, 20gr of unique. And then blowing up their guns. My grandfather told me about duplex loads, for black powser cartridge guns. It could also possibly have started with semi smokless powder, the lore that is.
As usual a brilliant video , informative, intelligent and fun ,what BP shooting is all about ,thanks Jake
In UK replacement nipples can be bought to use shotgun primers in muzzleloading revolvers and work well with both unique max 4.5g and pyrodex powder.
Super nerdy, for sure. I like it.