I once worked on a similar setup...a much smaller old building subdivided into offices and apartments, with mostly abandoned 1960s or early 70s condensing units on the roof, and the new ones in an otherwise disused upstairs room. They had a repurposed wall mounted furnace blower controlled with a temperature and humidity control. This blew the hot air directly outside. It all "worked" until the control burned up. A few weeks later, the motor bearings went. I didn't get there until hours after the condensing units finally tapped out. The heat in that room was still off the chart. The building owner only wanted a repair. It was then that I discovered the failed motor was paired with the wrong (too small) capacitor. It's a wonder the thing worked as long as it did!
Well, the run caps were getting weak and that contactor looked burnt, so they were getting there! The thing that kept the compressor alive is short well insulated lineset, and not run low on charge. Compressors in these type of units get most of their motor cooling from the return gas temperature, which is why it says in the book no return gas temp over 65 degrees. As long as there's sufficient gas flow and the return gas is 65 or less, the motor will survive. On the other hand, pushing against that massive head pressure will eventually take it's toll. If those were 410A units, I'd be shocked if the head pressure was under 450 psi.
This is super common in my area, only on Heritage buildings. They dont want unsightly condensors on the ground near the building, so theyre either in the attic, or the basement. Seen both. 😆
A house that size would normally have like a boiler room with chillers, and hot/cold water lines going to small air handlers throughout the space with supplemental radiant heat/in floor heating as needed. It's a lot simpler and cheaper to pump chilled water to where you need the cooling versus spending energy on moving cold air long distances and trying to install ducts in a 90 year old house. They got hot water up to those fan coil units, no reason couldn't also have a cold water coil too. And then have a small cooling tower out behind a wall somewhere hidden out back.
Keep in mind that the relationship between sq ft and required capacity is not linear - bigger houses need less cooling per sq ft just b/c of perimeter/exterior surface area vs floor area. 4 to 6 ton still sounds lite - i would think 8 to 10 tons.
I'm not an HVAC technician but I think that wasn't the installers brightest idea Wouldn't a water source heat pump be the better option in that scenario?
If converting that system to some sort of water cooled condensing units won't work, because maybe they have a well on the property or the aesthetics of a remote located cooling tower won't work, then what you can do is get a couple more cheap air handlers, and use those for condensers, and install supply/return ducts to get a proper outside airflow to your the air handler coils. Buying a couple of cheap 4 ton like Goodman air handlers with no heat kits would be 1000's of dollars cheaper than going to a split water source heat pump system. It looks like there's plenty of existing openings in that roof to make it work, like that existing roof powered exhaust fan needs to go. That's creating negative static pressure in the attic, and they'll be losing conditioned air from leaking up into that attic. If those are 2 3 ton condensing units, then you'll need like 2 4 ton air handlers, and then just bypass or delete the condenser fan and coil from those existing units. You could even put some kind of low ambient controller on those too, and control the blower speed based on head pressure or whatever. Will need some kind of air filter so those coils won't get plugged with dirt though too, but those existing coils looked pretty decent. Another big benefit of using some air handlers is they'll have a drain, washing out those existing condensing units like that would be an absolute nightmare and risk ruining probably beautiful plasterwork on the ceiling below. Some of those houses have huge plaster designs and crown moldings around all the light fixtures etc, and water damage to that stuff is a massive nightmare.
I had a customer that the condenser was in the attic and she did not want to believe me that it was way to hot for it to be up there. She had two more opinions that tried to come back to me to fix the issue. I declined the job as she only wanted to put a small attic fan in the soffit.
These are the types of days when naturally the unit is one of the further away from the access. And you say to yourself when you're sweating buckets....why the hell did I pick this trade. Nice work!
Ol' Michigan does get hot, and particularly humid, in the summer. And stays like that until the wee hours of the morning. Here, in CA, it cools off quickly as soon as the sun goes down you can open windows and cool down your house.
WOW - that sure is a huge house !!!!! The attic was endless !!! They sure do need attic exhaust fans in them attic openings !!! It makes for a good sauna during the day time. You do look a little thinner leaving then when you arrived !!!!! Want to see some video on your return trip. You certainly are the service man for this job !!!!!!!!
Better off to spray foam that roof deck with soft open cell foam, and get rid of all that nasty fiberglass and mouse turds, and completely seal and encapsulate that attic and turn it into at least semi-conditioned space. That whole attic is wasting a giant ton of energy, and heating and cooling a 12000+ sq ft house is not cheap. Nothing wrong with radiant heat, it adds to the authentic old school look of the interior, but a lot can be done with high efficiency boilers with smart controls to change the heat source temperature based on the heating load on the building etc.
Gee, think I feel a song coming on! 🎵 Its gettin hot in here, so hot! Those condensers are gettin so hot, they wanna take their clothes off! Mix a little bit a ah, ah With a little bit a ah, ah🎵
Wouldn’t you Like 🤪 to Meet the Genius who Thought 🤪 it was a Good Idea to Install two (2) Condensers in an Extremely Hot Attic with Very Limited Ventilation ?🤪
Why would he put the condensers inside the house? That's like putting a furnace outside to heat the inside of your house. Did he not want to spend the extra money to run the freon lines outside. Or it's like, having your furnace heat coming outside. He's chasing his own tail and wasting money. Maybe he didn't want to mess with the aesthetics of the outside of the house with air conditioning compressor units? After I see the aesthetics of the house and scenery, I can see, that he wants to keep it as a woodsy look with no modern-day equipment outside.
People put furnaces outside all the time. It works if done properly. The key word there is "properly". People use wood fired outdoor boilers all the time. And millions of commericial buildings and even some houses use gas fired package units on the roof, or sitting outside on a pad with side discharge ducts. Again, not an issue proper internally insulated well sealed duct system is used and sized according to Manual D, and equipment selection made with S, and sized to Manual J. Rules of thumb don't work on huge old houses like this.
Its called a unico system which is a high velocity system. The ducts are much smaller but you have to run a lot more of them. Mostly used in older homes where traditional ductwork is too big.
@@williamserver4332 I think a ductless split system would be way better then this, or just window AC's, because these cendensors are just going to run 24/7
@@aspinthereddragon9302 they clearly "have more money than brains" and do not want to see anything on the walls, have lines ran down the building inside our out, ugly condensers, which of course means no window-rattlers either.
One (1) Question, how were you able Stand the Hot 🥵 Temps in that Attic and Not Pass Out. Very Dangerous Conditions in that Ridiculous Attic. Thanks! 🤪👎
Do only short visits, and pop a cover off of an air handler to get some cold air blowing on you is how I've survived attic visits. Take frequent breaks, and drink water during a break as soon as I start feeling dizzy.
They need the mother of all attic fans to make that setup work.
I once worked on a similar setup...a much smaller old building subdivided into offices and apartments, with mostly abandoned 1960s or early 70s condensing units on the roof, and the new ones in an otherwise disused upstairs room. They had a repurposed wall mounted furnace blower controlled with a temperature and humidity control. This blew the hot air directly outside. It all "worked" until the control burned up. A few weeks later, the motor bearings went.
I didn't get there until hours after the condensing units finally tapped out. The heat in that room was still off the chart.
The building owner only wanted a repair. It was then that I discovered the failed motor was paired with the wrong (too small) capacitor. It's a wonder the thing worked as long as it did!
That's the Adams family house. Only thing missing were the vampire Bats attacking you in the attic and Uncle Fester coming out of the wall.
And Lurch coming to the door when you arrive, "You rang??"
The only thing missing is a dryer vent next to those condensers. At least they spaced them far enough apart. Lol.
I'm amazed the compressors haven't cooked yet
Well, the run caps were getting weak and that contactor looked burnt, so they were getting there! The thing that kept the compressor alive is short well insulated lineset, and not run low on charge. Compressors in these type of units get most of their motor cooling from the return gas temperature, which is why it says in the book no return gas temp over 65 degrees. As long as there's sufficient gas flow and the return gas is 65 or less, the motor will survive. On the other hand, pushing against that massive head pressure will eventually take it's toll. If those were 410A units, I'd be shocked if the head pressure was under 450 psi.
This is super common in my area, only on Heritage buildings. They dont want unsightly condensors on the ground near the building, so theyre either in the attic, or the basement. Seen both. 😆
Would love to see that boiler setup if you head back there! I always enjoy your content!
A house that size would normally have like a boiler room with chillers, and hot/cold water lines going to small air handlers throughout the space with supplemental radiant heat/in floor heating as needed. It's a lot simpler and cheaper to pump chilled water to where you need the cooling versus spending energy on moving cold air long distances and trying to install ducts in a 90 year old house. They got hot water up to those fan coil units, no reason couldn't also have a cold water coil too. And then have a small cooling tower out behind a wall somewhere hidden out back.
Looks like Radon fan dumping in the attic.
That old capacitor would have lasted longer than the new one 😂😂
Keep in mind that the relationship between sq ft and required capacity is not linear - bigger houses need less cooling per sq ft just b/c of perimeter/exterior surface area vs floor area. 4 to 6 ton still sounds lite - i would think 8 to 10 tons.
Salem some exhaust fans with temperature controls should help solve the problem as long as you got some good fresh air coming in
I'm not an HVAC technician but I think that wasn't the installers brightest idea
Wouldn't a water source heat pump be the better option in that scenario?
they got water to the outside they can get the lineset outside. none of this setup makes any sense
@@DabblelyDiddly oops, I never thought of that. It would sure be cheaper than a water source heat t pump
If converting that system to some sort of water cooled condensing units won't work, because maybe they have a well on the property or the aesthetics of a remote located cooling tower won't work, then what you can do is get a couple more cheap air handlers, and use those for condensers, and install supply/return ducts to get a proper outside airflow to your the air handler coils. Buying a couple of cheap 4 ton like Goodman air handlers with no heat kits would be 1000's of dollars cheaper than going to a split water source heat pump system. It looks like there's plenty of existing openings in that roof to make it work, like that existing roof powered exhaust fan needs to go. That's creating negative static pressure in the attic, and they'll be losing conditioned air from leaking up into that attic.
If those are 2 3 ton condensing units, then you'll need like 2 4 ton air handlers, and then just bypass or delete the condenser fan and coil from those existing units. You could even put some kind of low ambient controller on those too, and control the blower speed based on head pressure or whatever. Will need some kind of air filter so those coils won't get plugged with dirt though too, but those existing coils looked pretty decent. Another big benefit of using some air handlers is they'll have a drain, washing out those existing condensing units like that would be an absolute nightmare and risk ruining probably beautiful plasterwork on the ceiling below. Some of those houses have huge plaster designs and crown moldings around all the light fixtures etc, and water damage to that stuff is a massive nightmare.
I had a customer that the condenser was in the attic and she did not want to believe me that it was way to hot for it to be up there. She had two more opinions that tried to come back to me to fix the issue. I declined the job as she only wanted to put a small attic fan in the soffit.
What in tarnation?!
Never seen that before
These are the types of days when naturally the unit is one of the further away from the access. And you say to yourself when you're sweating buckets....why the hell did I pick this trade. Nice work!
Ol' Michigan does get hot, and particularly humid, in the summer. And stays like that until the wee hours of the morning. Here, in CA, it cools off quickly as soon as the sun goes down you can open windows and cool down your house.
Nice job.! Thanks for sharing this great HVAC life content.
WOW - that sure is a huge house !!!!! The attic was endless !!! They sure do need attic exhaust fans in them attic openings !!! It makes for a good sauna during the day time. You do look a little thinner leaving then when you arrived !!!!! Want to see some video on your return trip. You certainly are the service man for this job !!!!!!!!
Better off to spray foam that roof deck with soft open cell foam, and get rid of all that nasty fiberglass and mouse turds, and completely seal and encapsulate that attic and turn it into at least semi-conditioned space. That whole attic is wasting a giant ton of energy, and heating and cooling a 12000+ sq ft house is not cheap. Nothing wrong with radiant heat, it adds to the authentic old school look of the interior, but a lot can be done with high efficiency boilers with smart controls to change the heat source temperature based on the heating load on the building etc.
Those comfortmakers will have a hard time making comfort 😂
what in the!?!?!? 🤯 now I have seen it all.
NOT SAFE 2 B UP THERE 2 HOT GET OUT
Hey Joe, is that even code anymore? Fire hazard? 🔥
I need his accountant Job lol
Gee, think I feel a song coming on!
🎵 Its gettin hot in here, so hot!
Those condensers are gettin so hot, they wanna take their clothes off!
Mix a little bit a ah, ah
With a little bit a ah, ah🎵
Uhhhhh i get astetics and all but thats just ridiculous
who how and why........
Wouldn’t you Like 🤪 to Meet the Genius who Thought 🤪 it was a Good Idea to Install two (2) Condensers in an Extremely Hot Attic with Very Limited Ventilation ?🤪
I'd really love to see how they got those condensers up there... I bet that was quite the shit show
LMAO 😬👍
That's what I was thinking lmao
Who would do this walkaway
Why would he put the condensers inside the house? That's like putting a furnace outside to heat the inside of your house. Did he not want to spend the extra money to run the freon lines outside. Or it's like, having your furnace heat coming outside. He's chasing his own tail and wasting money. Maybe he didn't want to mess with the aesthetics of the outside of the house with air conditioning compressor units? After I see the aesthetics of the house and scenery, I can see, that he wants to keep it as a woodsy look with no modern-day equipment outside.
People put furnaces outside all the time. It works if done properly. The key word there is "properly". People use wood fired outdoor boilers all the time. And millions of commericial buildings and even some houses use gas fired package units on the roof, or sitting outside on a pad with side discharge ducts. Again, not an issue proper internally insulated well sealed duct system is used and sized according to Manual D, and equipment selection made with S, and sized to Manual J. Rules of thumb don't work on huge old houses like this.
THATS THE GUY U NEED 2 ASK 4 MONEY 4 YOUR BILLS AND KID
what kind of setup is that? why are ducts so small and why tf are condensers in the attic??
Its called a unico system which is a high velocity system. The ducts are much smaller but you have to run a lot more of them. Mostly used in older homes where traditional ductwork is too big.
@@williamserver4332 I think a ductless split system would be way better then this, or just window AC's, because these cendensors are just going to run 24/7
@@aspinthereddragon9302 they clearly "have more money than brains" and do not want to see anything on the walls, have lines ran down the building inside our out, ugly condensers, which of course means no window-rattlers either.
@@throttlebottle5906 for something like this I would recommend mitsubishi slim ducting or multi zone mini split systems
WOW
Wow, that may be the stupidest setup I've ever seen. There had to be a better way to set that up. How would you go about cleaning that coil?
One (1) Question, how were you able Stand the Hot 🥵 Temps in that Attic and Not Pass Out. Very Dangerous Conditions in that Ridiculous Attic. Thanks! 🤪👎
Do only short visits, and pop a cover off of an air handler to get some cold air blowing on you is how I've survived attic visits. Take frequent breaks, and drink water during a break as soon as I start feeling dizzy.
joke
Can I go work with you every Sunday I want learning the hvac skills please massage me please
It’s for sure I living in Michigan too,may be I can help you to carry things or camera