ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2019
- In his last video, GreatScott was not successful in building a Walkie Talkie project and suggested that we use his schematic to find out the problem.
Because I like his work, and I love all sorts of wireless gadgets, I decided to give it a try. Debugging anyway is an essential skill of a Maker because errors help us to learn. And to make it clear: GreatScott did not make an obvious nor a dumb mistake as he suggested.
Links:
GreatScott's video: • Make your own very cru...
NRF24L01: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bz2wnS12
Arduino Pro Mini 3.3V: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/baQA53Eo
or: bit.ly/2KbPqTN
or: B01JA58DHM
Max1458: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bhAmQjMy
3.3/5V FTDI adapter: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/c1fA5Yh6
or: bit.ly/2j36crg
Microphones: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cFbmk8Ak
Video about aliasing: • Sampling, Aliasing & N...
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Very nice video. I am glad that fixing the circuit only takes 1 resistor. Easy fix :-) Thanks again for you help. Your video is now linked underneath my Walkie-talkie video.
I don't know if im missing something, but. i think the major problem is that you're in essence are using a 1bit DAC and ADC. from my experience it won't sound any better then in this video.
@@swagiyo9801 No thats wrong. 1 bit is called "direct current" 🤷🏼♂️.
Great Scott uses 10bit ADC from Arduino and generates Analog Audio through PWM coupled with a capacitor.
This video is proof that he just did forget about headroom. So he created an overdrive Effect 🤘🏼
@GreatScott: You are welcome. And as I said, maybe we will have the chance for a test on a bike ride ;-)
@@swagiyo9801 The quality of output in the video is mainly depending on the noise created by pwm from the receiving side. But to get rid of that, one could choose to have a r2r-dac, instead of pwm, as well as having a "low pass RC-filter" at least between the arduino(328p) and the speaker/headphone, that integrates the high frequency pwm output above 4.5kHz. --- By the way, 1 bit ADC/DAC can create a very high quality output, depending on the internal resolution of digits and sample speed. Good CD-players have high quality 1 Bit DAC!
[edit] about 1 bit conversion you might want to read this e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation#Variations
@@swagiyo9801 Some of the best DACs and ADCs in the world are 1bit
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation
Great Scott : My walkie talkie project is not working
.
.
Andreas Spiess : Hold my Swiss Knife.
:-)
You call that a knife/screwdriver/sewing needle/ballpoint pen/file/pair of scissors/fork/spoon/set of pliers/tape recorder/pair of shoelaces/USB stick/hairdryer/jet ski/pet rock/pagan temple/...?
Yeah, I'm starting to see why they made Crocodile Dundee an Australian. If he were a Swiss, the movie would be over before they finished making that joke... ;)
- My walkie talkie project doesn't work.
- It will work when it hears my Swiss accent.
RULE #0 : If your project / code does not work let another guy have a look on it!
You can be 1000% sure that this line of code works, and so you will never see the error. Another person may say: "But.. in line 99 that..."
"Oh my God, thats right!"
Here it was not the code ;-) But in general, you are right.
Easiest way is to tell you friend about program and tell how it's working. you usually find that bug also at thins point. some people use rubber duck for this "rubber duck debugging". It's also sad that current arduino ide don't support most powerfull debugging (ICD) where you can use breakpoint and read + change values when run is paused.
Welcome to open source...
Ain't that true? Just the other day I was working on some Node-Red project with a friend. I'm the hardware/coding guy, so while he was dragging his flow together I had nothing to do and was entirely distracted trying to catch up with my emails. After 10-15 minutes of him banging his head against the wall, stuck on some issue, I glanced up from my mails and spotted the error immediately.
Zero Node-Red experience. The only reason I caught the error immediately was because I hadn't been staring at it for 15 minutes straight. Had I been paying attention while he was building the thing, I'd probably missed it too and would be scratching my head alongside him. ;)
XP pair programming.
Also I agree about Arduino IDE - Eclipse is a way better IDE for Arduino development IMO.
Great video, but beware NSFH (not safe for headphones ;)
Do not forget: I am biker with a quite loud Harley. So my ears are no more the best ;-)
I wish I had seen your comment earlier.
To be perfectly honest my TV sound bar did not like this one bit... or 10 bits depending upon how you want to look at it. Lol
Thank you! Have headphones off ears now.
Excellent debugging example from your previous video. And nice cooperation with one of my other popular channels GreatScott! Thanks.
Actually, it was no cooperation. I just was interested if it is possible. And I thought we can learn how to debug...
A simple RC low pass filter might solve the problem with overtones and the quantization noise. Perhaps add some of this at least in the output to the speaker? Supressing all above 4.5kHz will not distort sound, since main components of human voice is up to 3.5 kHz for males and up to 4.5 kHz for females. Agood choice might be to also filter the input from the microphone, to get rid of unwanted noise above human frequencies right before sampling with the arduino. Noise not being transmitted will do good for the transmission as well, since less artifacts in the samples for the receiver will prevent to reconstruct a wave form that is distorted by high frequency components.
You are right. I could have shown the FFT where you see the overtones. But I thought this was too much for one video.
Really good observation & suggestion
i have passive filters on my mic input and speaker output, still ALOT of noise. Added larger smoothing caps on the arduino and rf module power rails, that worked better and tweaked sample and data rate in software to get rid of the last bit of noise
It is allways nice to see DIYers to help eachother, good for you to improove your skills, and perfect for us to learn along with you.
Win win win situation ;-)
Very funny to see this this kind of “response” video Andreas! Great job!
yes i agree
Thank you!
what is interesting is that a lot of people think that debugging is not an essential skill, however I could say that this is one of the most important skills to have, you cannot be a good specialist without it. I just started learning electronics about a year ago, but I can say that I could debug that also without any problems (of course by having the appropriate equipment). The most important step in this is choosing the right strategy for debugging the project.
It is part of being a good engineer and it’s called experience
@D4no00: This was the intention of this video.
I googled the price tag for "Keysight MSOX3054T" and "Siglent SDG1050". Well, I am impressed - nice hobbyist tools... 😂
I got a special price for the oscilloscope :-)
@@AndreasSpiess how special from the list price of $12000? :)))))
Small Tip: When testing microphones, instead of speaking try to whistle. It's pretty easy to hit ~1kHz to create a perfect sine. A sinewave is easy to check on the scope.
You are right!
There is also the 3.3 kHz when whistling
Humming works as well, not as clean, but still :) Try to replicate the hum of the 50/60Hz transformer.
Also, there is an app for tones. Keeps me from passing out on long debug sessions! :-)
As a hobbyist, the way you walked us through your troubleshooting/debugging process was incredibly helpful. Thank you!
You are welcome!
Simple response, fantastic analysis and debugging tutorial!!
Thank you!
I have been working in the electronics field for years, and realized from your video here that I have been using these same rules, with minor exception with out realizing this is what I was doing. Thank You for the lesson on what I do and need to relearn to insure I am doing it right the first time. Great Video! Peace
Thank you! I tried to do some "abstraction" and I thought it will help beginners to get your experience faster.
You both guys are my favorite ❤️ love you work and I always learn something new
Thank you!
@@AndreasSpiess thanks sir it's my pleasure to talk u
Nice debug, my ears are bleeding now :')
Sorry about that. I always thought, you young guys are used to loud music ;-)
This really needs some better digital-analog conversion, at least filter the PWM!
A filter for sure would be a nice feature, I agree.
Good enough for a walkie-talkie.
Excellent. it shows what additional information you can get when you have a scope.
knowing what you are doing and going about it systematically should be part of our basic tool kit
Debugging without a scope or a logic analyzer is hard, I think.
Sure beats potentiometer, and unplugging / plugging in capacitors to iterate to a solution !
Good, this synergy between TH-camrs is interesting. 🙏
GreatScott did not know that I do this video. I never met him so far
8:55 Sine wave now works. Just got to troubleshoot my hearing now... 🤯
Home-made walkie talkies seem like such a cool project for new enthusiasts and veteran engineers alike. Always enjoy seeing people tackle this particular build. :)
This is probably why I did this video. I also liked the idea...
Congrats on an excellent job and the step by step trip through a debugging operation.
Thank you!
Excellent! I like this kind of teamwork of youtubers. Keep on both of you.
Actually, it was no real teamwork. I never met GreatScott :-(
Dear Andreas, thanks for this video. This is a pure pleasure watching the engineer's approach to solve technical problem. Excellent job, you made my day :-)
Thank you!
The crossover nobody asked for but everyone wanted.
:-))
Thanks for this video, very helpful to see debugging circuits in practice.
You are welcome!
Thanks so much for this lesson so that if you divide and isolate different functions and test them individually you will arrive at a total solution.
Wow! The walkie-talkie is a nice project. The debugging lesson is a great extra. Good to see you guys collaborating!
We actually did not collaborate. Unfortunately, I never met GreatScott so far.
Thank you for another great video and the lesson you have given to all makers and tinkerer. I suspect that you, as OM, heard immediately that there could only be two sources of error. Open Source is a great movement and I love the videos from GreatScott because he mostly does very well researched and competent videos.
But at the end of the day it shows again that nothing can be replaced by background knowledge and a lot of experience.
I was not sure if the "Arduino part" worked or had issues. This is why I checked this part first. I am sure it was not easy to write the lib because the NRF transfers max 32 bytes at a time. And I assume it needed some buffering (I did not look into the details)
Hey great job! to both you guys, I enjoy, and learn a lot from people like you and Great Scott, Dave Jones, Ave and others, it is good to see people interact like this, with out being snobs.
Thank you! Concerning being polite: In this respect, my idol is Roger Federer.
Excellent video and collaborative task with another great maker! You have an awesome engineering mind Andreas. Thank you for sharing such a great content with the makers community. :)
You are welcome! This is just a normal engineer's behavior ;-)
It was very fun video to watch. This debugging videos along with the explanation is very interesting. Keep on making such videos.
Thank you for your feedback!
Great video demonstrating how to debug ☺️ A vital skill for so many things!
Thank you!
Great vid.
I use a different rule set: 1. divide in two logical sections by educated guess or halving. Test in the middle if everything is ok. 2. If front part did not work, divide front in half and contunue with rule 1. If later part did not work, half later part and continue with rule 1. 3. if you make any changes due to testing, make sure to remove all of them before moving to next section. 4. Make sure you have objective measured results, avoid assuming too much based on measured data, separate assumed from the fact! 5. Simplify input if possible, like you used a signal generator in the start instead of voice, simpler input makes measuring simpler.
Good set. For this project, I did not want to cut in the middle, as I explained.
I really enjoyed both videos . thanks guys .
You are welcome!
its great!! not only walky talky but also effort. I really impressed.
Thanks a lot!
This is a superb video and walkthrough, many thanks! BTW, love the little pointy finger thing. You got a new subscriber :-)
Welcome aboard the channel!
Thoroughly enjoyed this episode.
Thank you!
That was awesome. Your knowledge is always helpful
Thank you!
Excellent logical reduction in the approach to troubleshoot. Furthermore, cooperation in helping another great designer rather than condemning and trash talking is highly commendable. Cheers to you both and "magic-smoke" to the trolls!
Thank you! We are both engineers...
I love GreatSCott and Andres Spiess, love both of your work :D
:-)
We are so lucky to have you guys.
:-)
The mini-hand to help describe. Genius.
Welcome aboard the channel!
@@AndreasSpiess my pleasure! :) and thank you.
Excellent debugging process. Well done!
Thank you!
Thank you for this video Andreas, there was plenty of information and knowledge gained through it.
You are welcome!
thanks for debugging greatscott walkie talkie, i also suggested last week in his post that the input audio signal was clipping at the scope screen, but it's weird to see till date that little comment of mine did not even get a single like ! 🥺
He gets many comments, so maybe nobody saw it :-(
@@AndreasSpiess so it seems. anyways, if you build this for actual usage, may be you may want to consider a 2nd order lc low pass @5-6KHz, to see if any of those irritating sharp noise gets reduced or not.
otherwise, cellphone companies already made voice calls free, so cellphones ftw.
i wish you enjoy the actual build, thanks. :-)
I ride a Harley. So having communication is anyway not possible because of loud pipes ;-)
Cool - love both of your channels!!
:-)
Great work and hands on explanation - every sunday ... Thanks
You are welcome. I try to be precise like a Swiss watch ;-)
I would’ve thought adding a cap or resistor somewhere would’ve solved it, but with out a scope no one would’ve known.. good job man!!!
Illustrates the point that oscilloscope, even an inexpensive one, is invaluable troubleshooting tool for anyone messing with this stuff
You are right. As I pointed out in my video about important tools: An oscilloscope and a cheap logic analyzer are indispensable.
Thanks for your amazing explanation. You and great Scott are really good. I never ever heard this type of explanation except electro boom. Electro boom is also good but he discussed about physic and electrical. (Sorry for bad English)
Everybody has its specialty. And you as a viewer has the choice :-)
A most informative and enjoyable video. Thanks.
You are welcome!
Awesome tutorial, Andreas!
Thank you for this.
You are welcome!
great stuff . I also love the distorted voice on teh radio , has that old equipment sound .
Many of the young viewers complained about this sound. Times change...
Hi Andreas,
Greetings from Australia,
I recently came across your channel and absolutely love your approach and clarity of explanation .
Thank you for kindly sharing your knowledge and systematic approach - well done :-)
P.s. If you ever find yourself looking for new project ideas I would love to see something on diy night vision and the technology
Behind it.
Have a wonderful day !!
I did something on IR lately. Bur for the moment I have no plans for night vision. But you never know. It is an interesting topic.
Headphone Users: Beware at 8:55
Too late
@@carlimp 🤣🤣😅😅
Thank you.
Sometimes reading comments ahead is good.
Next on Great Scott.. "Walkie Talkie mkII" which works like a charm!! The fact that you showed he can even gets to keep the same design and in turn same PCB he made is great!! All he had to change really is two resisters. Awesome!!
I only wanted his design to work.
Great cross over video guys, more needed :)
:-)
I learned a really nice detail from this video just in passing, it was never explained or even mentioned. Notice how at 9:14 it shows the NRF24L01 with antenna wires soldered on? I never knew that was a thing! I tried the same on an ESP8266 module and literally improved signal strength by 10dB. This solves the signal strength issue I've been having in some places. Thanks for another great video!
These two NRF24L01 were in my drawer from old experiments...
Informative as always
Thanks for sharing👍😀
You are welcome!
very well done, informative, structured and well thought out - as always - being one your first 20 fans i#m impressed how you developed your channel - chapeau !
one proposal though to improve the design of this interesting walkie-talkie would be a low pass on the opamp below 8KHz to get rid of the noise - maybe worth considering a thought - cheers, Mike
I planed this video more as a "debugging" video, not one to enhance GreatScotts work. But you are right.
And thank you for staying with the channel for such a long time!
Great video Mr. Spiess. I need to watch that video. (troubleshooting rules) I know you guys live in different countries but a collaboration would break the internet. (at least for us electronic enthusiasts) If even a shared video to avoid traveling.
Thank you! He is the big guy and he has to decide ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess I'll go bug him lol ;)
Andreas Spiess and Great Scott! Biker/Maker road trip sounds like the best thing ever... I hope this happens
Me too...
Please make more debugging AND behind the scenes videos like "#111 Labrep: How I work behind the scenes" in addition to the regular videos. Here is why. The regular, relatively short and high production value videos have just enough information for a moderately skilled person to quickly understand the technology and successfully complete the project. This is fantastic.
Yes, the behind the scenes video was long and somewhat tedious, but I learned so much from watching you work through the problem including your choice and usage of test equipment. The videos show that there is not magic behind how easily you seem complete projects in the regular videos. You show how to carefully analyze options, make hypothesis and then try to prove or disprove them, sometimes end up down blind alleys, but you keep persevering. These are essential skills for advancement.
The debugging video inspired me to purchase a waveform generator and follow along step by step. This helped me learn the value and usage of the waveform generator. The "#111 Labrep: How I work behind the scenes" showed me the value and usage of a Logic Analyzer that I did not fully understand. I would have used my oscilloscope and rudimentary protocol decoder, but now I will borrow my friends Logic Analyzer and learn more about it. What model do you own and what would you suggest for a hobbyist?
Thank you for your feedback, it is valuable. It depends a little on my mood how the video is in the end. Short or long ;-)
Concerning logic analyzers: They are all more or less the same. You get them in two classes: Cheaper and a little more expensive. Both have the same functionality, just more pins, and more speed.
Great job with great Scott!!!!
Thank you. But he does not know anything of it ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess ...yet. I'm sure the overlap in viewership will circle it back to him eventually.
Great video! The selection of MPU for the project makes me cringe. I have experimented with digitizing and delivering audio with AVRs. While possible, the quality is poor. These chips are wonderful for a great many things, but slow, with only 8 bit ADC at high speeds, and lack hardware DACs / i2s. ESPs and STM32s are only a couple of dollars and have Arduino IDE support. I have a sly suspicion you recognized the problem with the LM358 at first glance, Andreas, due to experience ;) My go-to op-amp these days is a TL082 for its high slew rate, and behavior close to the rails when using a single voltage source.
First I suspected the problem in the software because I did not believe it was possible to use the NRF24L01 for that purpose ;-)
AMAZING!!! SO GLAD U POSTED IT
Thank you!
just found your chanel, realy great explanation, now i want to make more stuff :)
Welcome aboard the channel. I hope you will find "food for thought" or for projects.
Great video, I was interested to find out the problem, but I'm just to lazy and don't have much time, but I enjoy your work going through the research.
SAme here. But I had the time ;-)
You two are the best !!
Thank you!
fantastic!!! Great troubleshooting video!
Thank you!
Nicely done to both you and Great Scott. Now to add VOX to only transmit when talking as we do not like to hog the airwaves and make it work in both directions so a conversation is possible.
It has a Push to Talk button. VOX on my Harley would always be on ;-)
We now know who the king of electronics is :) I salute you Herr Spiess!
This is not the intention.
wow..love it.. love u all greatscoot and adreas spiess
Thanks for watching!
Pretty well explained and this is a really nice example why an audio design fixing guy needs an Oszi :)
You are right. An oscilloscope is always handy. I use it a lot...
Well Done Andreas. It need more low pass filtering or a higher sample rate or both. Also Squelch (in firmware)
You are right. But here I wanted to focus on debugging
@@AndreasSpiess Absolutely. Excellent Debug video, I'm not saying you should do it :-)
but what it really needs is a better design from the start using maybe ESP32s for their DACs and radios.
The same rules also apply in Software Engineering. If something doesn't work, start making the system smaller and test I/O. Great video :D
Und grüezi aus dem Ruhrpott von einem Auswanderer o/
You are right. My video about errors should have been quite universal. Grüezi aus der verregneten Schweiz!
Well done, and this is really nice video, thank you.
You are welcome!
Well done. An excellent video that is very interesting. More please
Thank you!
Excellent video Andreas!
Thank you!
what an awesome great video ! LOVE IT
Thank you!
Sounds like a low pass filter set at the highest freq allowed by voice between the arduin and amp or amp and speaker may help the quality a little
You are right
Good illustration of Nyquist's theorem - need a sharp low pass filter cutting off around 2/5ths of the sample rate, and there's a lot of jitter. Even 10ns jitter on the sample timing adds a lot of noise. It could be that the code is not sampling using a precisely timed interrupt, or is running in a main loop with unnecessary interrupts still running.
Also, it's really important to use a sample and hold circuit to fix the voltage as it is being sampled, though this may be already built into the Arduino's ADC. Integrating PWM with an RC circuit is pretty crude, but a proper DAC chip and LPF would also help to improve the sound quality.
If there's enough processing power available, the sound could be encoded in real time as AAC or MP3, transmitted with a lower RF bandwidth instead of using uncompressed PCM then decoded by the receiver.
If somebody wanted to build a real walkie-talkie this is not the recommended way. I liked the project because it uses our standard parts and still works. But adding a filter would for sure be a small, but useful addition.
Thanks, Nice work !
You are welcome!
I knew the bug was in the amplifier. As I commented on GreatScott's video, using the Vref pin on the Arduino with two resistors to tune the ADC input voltage amplitude eliminates the need for the LM.
I do not think this would be sufficient. The LM358 amplifies the very small signal with a factor of 100
Great effort Andreas.
Thank you!
"Because of this shitty little loudspeaker"
hahahah made my day!
I have never heard you use this word before soi it's very comical.
It is as it is ;-). But it was also cheap...
Appreciate, you responded and liked to almost ALL comments! Subbed! :-)
Welcome aboard the channel!
@@AndreasSpiess Thanks ! :D
Very good. A nice tutorial for younger engineers to work more systematically. I know this too good, because I was once boss of 45 engineers.
That was my intention. I thought this is a good example to show it in practical use
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, pratice is the best way to learn the theory!
Helpful video 👍 I like it
Thank you!
Interesting that adjusting the gain at the start fixed so many issues though I suspect a low pass filter on the output would help make the sound quality a little easier on the ear.
A filter definitively would help!
@@AndreasSpiess I would be very interested to see what an add on low pass filter would do.
Why not try it yourself. For a video, this would probably not be very interesting :-(
@@AndreasSpiess My workshop is currently being built... and isn't set up for electronics yet.
A helpful video about a helpful video? Faith in humanity restored
:-)
2 questions:
-When is it most appropriate to use the ISP or Jtag Debugger on your micro controller? Do you normally do that after all other options for electronic failures have been evaluated?
-would throwing a lowpass RC filter on the end of your output get rid of the high pitched noise in the signal? Or maybe a bandpass with a wide high band?
Maybe you watch my video about debugging and then decide if you need it or not.
You could use a steep bandpass filter from 300Hz - 2,7 KHz to reduce some of the noise (anti aliasing) before digitalising and a 2,7kHz lowpass before the audioamp.
The goal was to fix it, not to improve it. You are right, a filter could help.
Sehr cool. Gut gemacht.
Danke!
Great work
Thank you!
Great job!
Thank you!
You are The Master sir.
Regards
:-)
Very interesting video. I surely will try this at home. But one question, how much is the value of the chenged resistor ? Or is it completly removed from the circuit ?
You have to try it yourself. It depends on your setup.
Great great skill both of you.
next time, could you please build raspberry ups? In easy and cheap way. thanks
So far I have no plans for that
Just excellent!
Thank you!
This is amazing!
:-)