A Game Designer Ranks From Software's Healing Systems | Design Delve
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- This video is sponsored by Let Bions Be Bygones, the atmospheric future-noir thriller launching on April 30th. Wishlist the game now on Steam -- bit.ly/Let_Bion...
In this week's episode of Design Delve, J & Ludo attempt to rank all of From Software's healing systems.
Support us on Patreon: / secondwindgroup
Second Wind Merch Store: sharkrobot.com...
Music used in order of appearance:
The Notebooks - Stray OST
The Abyss - HLD OST
Checking In - Celeste OST
The Notebooks - Stray OST
Reflection - Hollow Knight OST
Majula - DS2 OST
White Palace - Hollow Knight OST
Hornet - Hollow Knight OST
Dirtmouth - Hollow Knight OST
Nosk - Hollow Knight OST
Resurrections - Celeste OST
Reflection - Celeste OST
Now here's a question... How wrong are we? lets debate down below :D Consider supporting our whole team on Patreon if you want to see more unhinged content like this.
Patreon: www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
J & Ludo's Twitter: twitter.com/JM8andLudo
I'm surprised that the video doesn't talk about the speed at which the healing animation plays, or the fact that it locks you down in place like in Dark Souls 1. Also I find it interesting that Dark Souls 2 heals progressively, so it is sometimes more beneficial to heal twice for faster regen, even if it's overkill in terms of raw HP.
i feel like Elden Ring doesn't deserve an S rank though, my experience with the game is that my healing gourds flatlined at the start of the game, then skyrocketted and hit the ceiling mid game
Re: Bloodborne
If you died and have depleted your stock of healing items to the point where the game is encouraging you to farm them, then maybe farming is what you need to do? As a player you've proven that you can't be trusted to manage your resources correctly, or that you actually don't have the skills and stats combination needed to proceed. You are then forced to practice a bit by farming some enemies which also gets you some souls(or whatever they were called in bloodborne) which hopefully you will use to get a few upgrades before proceeding. So even though it isn't fun, it is the game telling you that you need more practice at the core game before continuing.
Bloodborne allows you to regain health by quickly retaliating when damaged. I wouldn't say it's the best design answer but it at least gives you the option.
More complaints incoming, why did you start from Dark Souls and not some earlier title?
Edit: Oooh I see what you did there... you dropped Demon's Souls in to post Bloodborne.
You forgot the rally system from bloodborne.
I was honestly expecting more of a deep dive that looked at the actual gameplay mechanics. There's a lot more to a healing mechanic than just how to upgrade it. The fact that you can't move while drinking estus in DS1 makes a massive difference in the mechanic, and there's plenty of other elements and changes over the various games. The fact that the animation for a second sip is a lot faster if its done immediately after the first, DS1's rite of kindling that increases the kindling level, Sekiro and Bloodborne's almost instant heal that is used due to the much faster pace of the game, Sekiro's revival system, ect. There's a lot more to these healing mechanics than just "pick up objects, get more flasks!"
@@johnnydatboi Who hurt you so much that you feel the need to take it out on everyone else?
@@johnnydatboi Well that is one way to dismiss literally all educational content on youtube.
@@johnnydatboi They’re a game designer as well? They make games, but they also make these?
People can do more than one thing.
@@johnnydatboiThe truly valuable opinions, of course, only come from TH-cam commenters.
Also if they counted lifegems in Dark Souls 2, why not mentioning healing spells and items with regenerative effects in all the games, and also Bloodborne's rally mechanic?
Addint just one item to the equation while leaving everything else out doesn't seems right, or the tier list is only based on the primari healing mechanic, the Estus, or everything must be included, nothing should be left out.
"here, a friend to contemplate your sins with!" Damn that line goes hard
The best tip I’ve heard for Bloodborne: every time you level up, spend your leftover souls on blood vials. It’ll GREATLY reduce the amount of farming and grinding you have to do later if you’re consistently buying a bunch whenever you’re back at the dream, and you’ll still get more then enough souls to level up and build a capable character
(Yes i know it’s echoes in BB)
Though keeping in mind that your leftovers also go towards refilling on bullets and for some other utility consumables.
As an addition to the Elden Ring healing system and how it encurages the player to keep interacting with the game - some of the flasks get restored when the player defeats a group of enemies allowing them to keep playing and exploring without the need to go back and rest which would respawn most enemies. Personally, this is the greatest addition for me as it feels like making so much progress and also seeing how far I can get on a set of flasks :D
Additionally, I think it's interesting how you could use up the last of your flasks right before a fight finishes, and get them all back anyway. But if you use them after a fight finishes, you don't get them back.
This means that it rewards you for healing while you're still at risk and getting out of a fight with most of your health and mana.
just wanted to add that Dark Souls 3 also did this
Even Dark Souls 1 had this, both with Estus and "soft" Humanity. Illusory Wall made a whole video about it
To be fair to Bloodborne, the healing paradigm of “the successful stay successful and the struggling die a lot” fits well with its Victorian theme
yeah too bad the devs forgot that gameplay is 1000% more important than themes
I can whole heartedly agree with this video with only one minor nitpick or addendum: Bloodborne's Rally mechanic. It deserves mention and feels like it might built into the game first, then blood vials were to make up for it. As someone who has only experienced the game through LPs or streams, it really feels like it was supposed to be the "next big thing" in healing. And while they had iterations of it with rings or weapon mechanics in previous games, since it is always active and always available, I think it was supposed to be the main way to heal damage taken. I have no proof to back it up, it just feels like that is the case.
Yesss!!! I felt like I was only hearing half of the discussion about Bloodborne and why it feels so different to play. The trick weapon combos, the faster dodge mechanics, and the rally system all combine to make a fast fluid hack and slash fighting style. The blood vials are if anything supporting this style by being numerous enough to solve the problem of chip damage from enemies remaining after rallies but also being farmable, encouraging further fighting of enemies. Farming is a legitimate activity in BB, Gehrman even encourages the player to do it!
I don't think it was meant to be the main source of healing. Atleast not in the form it was present in the game. I think it was primarily meant as an incentive to be aggressive against enemies that take a big chunk of our health bar.
There are certain enemies that have rapid yet low damage attack. The rally bar reduces each time the next attack occurs, effectively leaving you with very little room to heal. So if that was a primary healing mechanic, rapid attack enemies would have been the bane of bloodborne.
Perhaps rally bar's were the primary healing mechanic. Perhaps their response to rapid attacks was tweaked after blood vials were brought in.
Rally is yet another reinforcement loop that Jm8 mentions though - good players will recognize attack patterns and know when to be aggressive to recover health with it, while noobs will hardly be able to take any advantage of it. It's more a combat mechanic than a healing mechanic - if it were the latter, we might see more means of upgrading it (increasing timers and whatnot).
Rally also rewards good play and punishes weak players. It's the same type of loop. So while it IS well built into the game, it's not fixing the problem - only making it worse.
I've played DS3, Elden Ring, Demon Souls, and Bloodborne.
I struggled most with Bloodborne and quit before even reaching the halfway point because it actively punishes anything short of purely aggressive play. Rally became a trap for me, I wasn't good enough to get it right from the start, I died, lost echoes, lost vials trying to heal from a failed Rally, loop, repeat.
Demon Souls on the other hand felt much better, because while I did need to occasionally farm, the game itself allows for more flexibility and allows for tactical play. Same consumable healing system, no Rally, and yet it felt MUCH better to play.
I do agree that Rally probably was meant to be the main way to recover HP, but it ended up making the game inaccessible for so many people. I LOVE Bloodborne, It's just not made for non-aggressive players.
@@CheesecakeMilitia I don't think I agree. It teaches you how to play. In Bloodborne you don't run away and heal, you strike back to rally and heal further during openings. It's yet another way to get users out of the Shield and heal playstyle.
It’s a good day when Ludo releases a video. And yeah I’m happy to hear James too
While many good points are raised, I feel like the larger picture is lacking.
In Fromsoft's recent action games health systems have generally been composed of 3 pillars: dedicated healing items*, split purpose healing items** and health bar shenanigans***.
While the dedicated healing items are explored here, it is the intermingling of the other systems that makes the healing systems work.
For example: in the first Dark Souls you have a set amount of flasks that help you consistently gauge how far you can go and what you can accomplish wherever you are in the world, whereas in later games you start off with 1-3 flasks that make the early game more difficult and imo are the main culprit for Elden Ring's poor balancing as fights in the open world are effectively decided by how much damage you can take, which varies constantly.
In dark Souls 1 again, you must choose between using a humanity to fully heal yourself if you run out of flask or saving it to kindle upcoming bonfires for more flasks. Unfortunately embers and rune shards have additional effects instead of split effects, which robs the player of interesting choices and gives them a level of power that makes it hard to effectively gauge your character's abilities and progression since their stats are constantly fluctuating.
Finally, these games usually have a mechanic that alters the maximum length of your healthbar for a period of time.
In the original Dark Souls you could get cursed in a handful of spots, which creates a unique experience of being in a weakened on a journey to reclaim your vitality, reframing previous encounters. Again, in later games like DS3 and Elden Ring this mechanic is largely dedicated to increasing your maximum HP for a short-lived power boost. In DS3 there are the Irithyll Dungeon wardens who build a similar tension, but only appear once and in ER you have the black knife assassins, but their ability is so miniscule and short lived as to make it an inconvenience as opposed to a threat.
As for Bloodborne: blood vials being limited is not only story relevant, but it seems designed to make you engage with the rally mechanic as the blood is meant to be more precious.
* Grass, flasks, blood vials, gourds
** Ephemeral stone, humanity, embers, rally, die twice, rune shards
** Ephemeral stone, curse, hollowing, cursed chalice, embers, imfeablement, rune shards
That basilisk curse in DS1 is still one of the most vile things From Software has ever done and one of the reasons which I feel the "hard but fair" description of its combat is a load of bollocks. As a 1-time Gotcha, fair enough, something that lasts till your next death that would have been ok. But this idea that your health bar is permanently halved until you get to a much much much later stage in the game, with much harder content than you faced so far standing between you and the cure is just complete filth.
Don't you dare point that out as an interesting mechanic.
@@88Opportunist you know you can just walk back to the undead female merchant to buy a purging stone, right? It's not far. In fact, by this point in the game you've probably met two merchants in early areas that sell them.
It's an extremely interesting mechanic because you won't find it in any other game and it has a profound effect on the atmosphere of the game.
Shout out to how Lies of P does its healing system. Locking the upgrade Quartz through bosses and exploration encourages engagement with the world, while also emphasizing player planning with the upgrade tree (letting you choose when/if you need more heals). However, recharging one pulse when empty is perfect. Earning back one pulse provides a safety in exploration or bosses, while also forcing a "do-or-die" mentality.
Lies of P is just so damn good
I love the changes that Lies of P made to the formula. The healing system was great, but in consort with how much more they value the players time, it was brilliant.
@@TheGreatGoddessFreya It's boss runs and meaningless blade grinding minigame say otherwise.
@@c0n33r the boss runs aren't bad at all for the most part and the blade grinding isn't bad, the only times it really comes up if when acid is involved
One thing I really love about Bloodborne’s healing is that it can be parried in PVP. It opens up so many cool choices in PVP and it feels so awesome to predict someone healing. Bloodborne PVP is so awesome (gun spam is kinda bad, but ds3 has estus cancels and I still love ds3 pvp), it’s just so sad they messed up with the matchmaking, making it so hard to engage with the invasion mechanic.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the full 2 seconds it takes you to chug estus in DS2 and it doesn't replenish your health instantly
obligatory absurd hatred of ds2 not related to the topic was clearly more important to the video than the actual mechanics discussion.
it speeds up when you level agility(adp/att)
Wild Indeimaus spotted 3:06
talking rats? I'll see JM8 in court
lawyer up
@@indeimaus talking rat plush when
You missed one modern FromSoft game; Armored Core 6. In Armored Core 6,you're given three repair kits per mission. They restore a fixed amount of health,and if you run out,you're either up a creek,or need to find a supply sherpa,which is *not* guaranteed to find,as not every mission has one,and missions that *do* have one only have the one,typically right before the final encounter. Exactly one mission has two supply sherpas,and it stands out because of it.
By completing Arena Mode bouts,you gain a currency that can be spent to improve various aspects of your machine,regardless of the build,including the effectiveness of your repair kits. Ultimately,it will still only restore a fixed amount of health,just a larger amount,and you'll never have more than three on hand at a time. This means that lightweight builds benefit more from repair kits than heavyweight builds,but lightweight builds are far more vulnerable to heavy firepower due to their reduced margins for error,and their reduced stagger gauge,while heavyweight builds will be forced to spend multiple repair kits at once in order to repair serious damage. This produces a resource management and risk-reward analysis situation where you're constantly aware of your multiple finite (for the mission) resources,and how best to spend them. Which makes sense,really. You're an independent mercenary. You're functionally alone,without any support,and you're there to make money.
I still think DS2's system could have been great if lifegems worked like blood vials, i.e. infinite storage but you can only hold a certain amount at once. Estus stays unchanged, a baseline buffer and your main resource in boss fights, but gems are your main sustain in the field, and the odd drop from enemies is an exciting bump that lets you extend further. Maybe include another upgrade for how many you can carry. There's a reason every From game since used the carry/storage system.
Sekiro learnt from DS2’s mistake and had a limit on Medicinal Pellets (I.e. lifegems), which you could only carry three (and store the rest). You couldn’t upgrade the number you carried though, but I believe the amount they healed scaled with the gourd upgrades.
So not trying to be that person, but you actually do have a limit on how many lifegems you can carry at once, it's just that the limit is 99. Overall though I like the lifegems since no matter how easy they may be to use, they are a consumable and heal really slowly so if you try to just spam them there will be many times you get killed for it. It's my favourite of the systems since it feels like the Estus is your big heal to be saved for when you really need it and the lifegems are the toppers so getting toxic without blooming moss doesn't force you back to a bonfire.
@@TamaraBloodhoof99 per type.
@@soulslikefan6760 Yeah, Dark Souls tends to have limits per each item type.
There are other nuances I feel you've glossed over here in sekiro's healing system. You find more gourd seeds mostly by exploring. You also find healing items, similar to life gems, but you have a very small carry limit to them, with extras being stored. This makes the healing items nice to have in a pinch, but not too powerful that you can completely reject the main heal, like you do in dark souls 2.
I love how Remnant II handles healing.
Your "healing flask" equivalent is actually a category of items you can equip, and they can all differ in extreme ways that change how you pursue your healing (or not, some even drain your hp).
It's a compelling set of trade-offs that can significantly change your playstyle
Edit: as per a comment, they're even used as a resource when reviving a teammate, adding weight to the death of any party member
Wait, I'm currently playing the first one, I'm up to the swamp dimension, and dragon hearts have always just been estus flasks so far. Am I missing something? Are you saying there are variations of the item?
It also used to revive teammates. It is similar to the Dark Souls 3 system. Where you can trade power for healing. Although there is a little of Bloodborne and Demon's Souls in that there are healing consumables that you can buy or farm.
@@gifgoldblum7940 Remnant 1 did not have any variations on the dragon hearts. 2, however does. (I assume your comment was before their post was edited)
I would say that kindling in DS1 is neat in a way because it gives a way for a struggling player to lower the difficulty in a specific area, where they have problems. Also, you gain humanity just by killing normal enemies, and if you struggle a lot, you may have a couple to spare
Yep, and due to the way humanity is earned, it's not actually that hard to kindle bonfires in challenging areas. Also due to the nature of the multiplayer, you kindling a bonfire gives everyone else that rested at that bonfire 1 flask. In high traffic areas during peak time, it was possible to just never run out of flasks.
@@ZefulStarson Maaan, DS1's mechanics of your actions influencing other people's worlds in small ways were great!
Kindling, Miracle Resonance, VAGRANTS... I'd even love to see Gravelord phantoms make a comeback.
yeah the "correct" way to farm humanity is dark souls 1 was to pop your soapstone down, help someone else go through the section you're struggling with, get practice on the area and the bosses and then come back with a humanity and more xp to do the kindling.
Exactly! I believe if you haven't killed the area boss you can gain up to 5 humanities per area just by fighting through the area a couple times, which most struggling players do in order to grind some levels.
One thing I appreciate about From Soft is their willingness to change their formula and experiment with some mechanics on every game. It's refreshing since a lot of other franchises and studios tend to stagnate instead of evolve with subsequent releases.
Uhhh, what the actual fk are you talking about? All their games I've played are extremely similar in terms of gameplay mechanics and atmosphere. I've played all the Souls games and Elden Ring.
It really is wonderful to see how their mechanics have evolved over the years - especially if you also take King's Field into account. Though there is one detail I'm getting tired of: the blind/half-blind maiden that provides guidance and needs to be sacrificed.
Idk man, just watching this video makes the estus system look basically identical from game to game with only a few minor differences. This is like saying Assassin's Creed games are innovative and experimental because their is more variation in that series compared to From games. But I'm just wasting my time, this channel is filled with From snobs who think that From invented a finite healing system that refreshes when you rest, which is not true.
@@FeiFongWang I'm talking about small mechanics that they tend to implement and experiment with in different entries. Like dual wielding in DS2 (Then how they changed them in DS3 and eventually ER), the new mana system and flasks on DS3, jumping and vertically oriented level design from Sekiro (and how they incorporated it on ER) and the rally system from Bloodborne (That is in ER in the form of Melenia's rune). Yeah, the core structure is similar but they do experiment with secondary mechanics in most of their entries.
One thing I appreciate about FromSoft is how they've managed to brainwash their fans into thinking they're the only ones with certain qualities when in truth they're one of the few that lack them
I absolutely loved DS1’s healing for it’s narrative but totally agree with the criticism as well.
Bloodborne’s healing system though is genuinely the reason why I never finished the game. I loved it, I loved the setting and dove deep in the story but with the time I had to put towards games it just wasn’t worth it to spend it grinding healing items in the first area just so I could keep progressing
In Dungeons and Dragons communities there’s this ongoing discussion on how PCs level up (either by getting experience from kills, or from major milestones that automatically level the party up) that is rather similar to how you describe health upgrades either encouraging or discouraging exploration.
People are arguing that XP encouraging players to engage in battles and events the Dungeon master makes, but it also encourages farming and players being unbalanced compared to the more regulated milestone system.
it also encourages players to always engage which can hurt the roleplay
The take that I’ve always fallen back on when thinking about blood-borne’s blood vials is that it’s a thematic choice. That doesn’t make it less frustrating necessarily from a game design perspective, but it does help me appreciate why they did it.
The game is all about the tension between humanity’s wisdom being at odds with our bestial nature, and part of the horror of the game is realizing that humanity will never ascend. Our attempts to do so, by imbibing the blood of the gods, render us as we truly are in the eyes of the Great Ones: mindless, slathering beasts on the hunt for more blood.
Bloodborne’s healing mechanic DIRECTLY forces the player to turn into such a beast, utilizing reinforcement loops to compel the player to act like the beasts they slay, and go back to fertile hunting grounds upon which they butcher their prey for vital resources. And the more blood vials you take, the more you need to hunt, echoing the way the holy blood turns those who take it into beasts.
People often dismiss blood vials as being a regression from a design perspective, but FROM- especially Miyazaki- never does anything by accident. A lot of their gameplay is itself part of the story, and this is a shining example of that. Where dark souls was about uplifting mankind, bloodborne is about tearing us down. In dark souls, you imbibe the power of the gods which replenishes upon death, almost as if you are being graced with another chance by a higher power. You get no such grace in blood-borne. Only the hunt
Again, I know it’s frustrating from a design perspective when they had a superior system in their previous game, but you have to consider what the game is trying to say whenever you’re looking at a FROM game.
Very well said!
I also have to disagree with one of JM8's closing remarks, that design should never force the player to leave a challenge and come back.
That ISN'T always true. Sometimes the player SHOULD go "I'm not ready for this, I need to come back later." I think that attitude is precisely why the team had such a bad time with Dragon's Dogma. They kept throwing themselves at bosses that they were absolutely not ready for and kept thinking "but I HAVE to find a way to kill it!" Instead of the much more obvious human response "this thing is scary and it isn't dying, I should probably RUN."
Sometimes introducing a difficult challenge and 'forcing' the player to leave and come back later can make it all the more satisfying when you DO return with more power, and beat the previously insurmountable odds.
IMO Not every challenge should be conquerable on the first go, no matter how persistent you are.
@@matthewturpin6429 It's interesting that he talks about reinforcement loops as a negative. That's the games way of telling you that you are doing something wrong. "Hey, stop it, try something else."
I wanted to make pretty much the same comment - while game-logic wise BB healing system is a step back, narratively it's the most fitting one of all. It causes build up of both frustration and tension, forcing the player to play either extremely carefully and thoughtfully like in a horror game, or falling into beast-like aggression to leave enemies stunned and abuse the Rally system to ignore their counterattacks
it's the survival of the fittest, but like in nature - the fittest are usually the most paranoid, sneaky or vile of the bunch
@@soulslikefan6760 I think he views them negatively because they are frequently created accidentally, which leads to terrible loops.
The only mistake here seems to be assuming that the outcome wasn't narratively intended.
@@matthewturpin6429 This was also weird to me. I mean the Tree Sentinel in Limgrave is the first guy you see when you enter the Elden Ring overworld and the whole reason FROM put him there was to teach the player that it's okay to run away.
His assessment of Estus in DS1 was also strange. I couldn't figure out why he thought burning humanity to increase the charges on a bonfire was a bad thing. He said it was, but I couldn't tell why. "You have to kill rats." Okay? I mean first of all no you don't. You pick up plenty of humanity organically as you travel, and if you're human, hollowed enemies have a chance to give you a humanity when they die; not as an item, it goes directly toward your consumed charges. This directly incentivizes skilled and/or thoughtful exploration.
And you don't have to kill bonfire maidens to take their souls. There are several firekeeper souls you can find by exploring, which satisfies his point about DS2 encouraging exploration; as if Estus charges is the only incentive to explore in a Dark Souls game.
If you WANT to kill firekeepers you can, especially on an evil run, but it's not necessary. It's a risk/reward calculus as well; do I lose a bonfire but gain a soul?
Overall this was a really weird video from him. I checked out when he put Bloodborne in bottom tier as if it's the same thing as Demon's Souls. To me it showed a complete lack of understanding of the game.
FromSoftware's Fantasy* healing systems... I don't see no armored core ratings
Kindling is the best system because it’s such a natural adaptive difficulty system. Do you think an area is too difficult? Kindle the bonfire. Do you think a level looks easy or like a reasonable challenge? Don’t kindle. Humanity is a plentiful enough resource, especially if you aren’t spending it on a covenant.
And you can use the humanity to heal or for PvP/coop instead. Really lets you shape your experience!
I love that you used the Hollow Knight soundtrack instead of any of the Soulsborne music.
which is ironic because Hollow Knight has maybe the best Soulsorne healing mechanic? I *love* that you gain Soul from dealing melee damage, and that you then have to decide whether to spend that Soul on spells or to heal. It encourages such good risk/reward playstyle during gameplay.
@@ikemoritz1425 it makes the platforming sections intense because you don’t have any enemies to regain Soul, and the boss fights crazy because you not only have to figure out the timing for healing, but also actively attack to have enough to heal. I’m just finishing up my second play through and it’s my favorite soulslike.
Not true-he used the Majula theme from Dark Souls II...for Bloodborne, lol.
@@dorongrossman-naples9207yeah that one threw me for a loop a while
@@dorongrossman-naples9207 the man made strong musical choices. Were they the right ones? Debatable.
3:40 you use the shards to increase the size of the flask to allow it to store more sipps of estus, the dust is potentially the remains someone who linked the fire and thus their rekindling of the fire and revitalization of it's strength pass unto your estus gaining power and revitalising you more.
Salt and sanctuary did healing items quite well, being tied to your particular religion. It was really just estus flasks with flavor text and numbers, but tied to other religion based rewards. Goldenwine ftw.
.
Not really, each creed's healing item have slight differences. What's most important though is that depending on the creed, you get access to different items and buff consumables. I honestly wish more games have faction mechanics like that, making factions actually change your playstyle.
Devara's healing potion boosts your defense, and the faction has a unique potion that heals both mana and health
The Three are the most basic heal but have access to more items in their starting shop
Iron ones takes longer to use but get access to a ridiculous stamina regen consumable
Stone Roots have slow heal rate but gives you access to poison spells and item.
Splendor has slow heal rate and causes poison build up, but you get the best melee buff item in the game
Fire and Sky has a fixed heal value but you get access to magic buff items
Betrayers potion builds up corruption, which makes all other factions hostile, but you get a grenade that reduces enemies' defense to 0.
@@cyansuy3062 stone roots were my jam on my gun character, but nothing melted bosses quite like the late fore and sky spells from the keepers. I never played around with the betrayers too much even though I had a second betrayer mage char.
Would have really liked to hear thoughts on the way more intriguing Rally mechanic in comparison to the clear shittiness of Blood Vials xD
Same here...
I always got a kick out of the rune (blood rapture) that gives you hp whenever you riposte too
Also...blood vials heal a fixed percentage of your hp, compared to estus which are a static number. It means theyll be useful regardless of how high you pump your hp
In Elden Ring i'm having to use 3 or even 4 of my 12 flasks for a full heal. It feels horrible
I didn’t run into the issue with Bloodborne so I was quite surprised when it ranked so low. I think this goes more into how the game as a whole is fundamentally different from other From Software games. Healing isn’t part of your health pool as you go from lamp to lamp; it’s part of your souls count. I mean maybe I know I’m SO BAD and have to grind in general for souls/levels that I never ran out.
Mario64 had the best system. Limited coins in a level, but coins also filled health so you could collect them as needed while pursuing other objectives. But still 1 of 5 stars was always to collect 100 coins - with special ones like hidden red or blue worth 5 and 10 respectively being hidden, encouraging exploration and access to hidden objectives. It was perfect.
Doesn't the Elden Ring healing system have a similar problem to Dark Souls 1? Kindling potentially gives you an insane amount of healing for very little resource investment. You can also (almost) fully upgrade your healing flask in Elden Ring wihtout fighting a single enemy by running around the open world for about an hour, ruining the balance of many early game bosses in the process. Dark Souls 3 limits the amount of healing upgrades you can have by gating most of its areas behind bosses so the designers always know how many healing charges the player can have. That way they can balance the areas and bosses around that information. That seems superior to me.
Personally, I still think DS2 has the worst healing system of them all, because the worst part about Lifegems is that you can carry a *virtually unlimited amount of them*.
At the heart of Souls-like design is resource management: carefully managing Health, Mana and Endurance while exploring and fighting. Tension is created by those resources being constantly in the face of opposition, and it's an incredibly effective way to convey the feeling of danger and vulnerability those games thrive on. Lifegems, however, allow any player to remove perhaps the most crucial of those resources, Health, from the equation, by giving them access to an infinite source of health regeneration at the cost of a trivial amount of souls (and you can get a decent amount of the most powerful variant by farming Archdrake Pilgrims, as you will certainly already be doing to get Twinkling Titanite).
Say what you will about Blood Vials, but at least you can only carry a limited amount of them. Say what you will about grass (except that I should touch it), but AT LEAST there's a hint of balance with the way it interacts with Demons Souls' terrible weight system. The only limit on Lifegems is that you can only carry 99 of them, making them a virtually unlimited resource during normal play.
>ranking all of from soft's healing systems
>Literally not a single mention of armored core
??? Like even a passing remark ("this video is only about the Souls games") would have been better, even in the title, come on
This has nothing to do with the content of the video itself but the music shifting from Hollow Knight to Celeste at 10:26 was so well-done it actually distracted me from what was being said for a few moments, kudos to the editor.
I love BB but can't agree enough with the BV issue. In a good chunk of the game I don't think it is too much of an issue with how much there is too explore but thing it really shows how flawed it is at the end. When I got to Gehrman and Moon Presence they kicked my ass many times and the need to keep going to farm BV every couple of deaths put a damper on the endgame experience for me. Took me about 6 hours to beat them both and half of that time was just going to farm enough BV to fight them.
I personally think consumables that recharge at bonfires/inns/whatever is an amazing design that should be standard in most if not all RPGs, instead of the standard "You have 17 potions."
It discourages the hoarder tendencies of the playerbase when they can use things without fear of scarcity. You know, where you end up with 9 megalixirs 45 elixirs and 5 MegabuffX at the last boss because you didn't use any the entire game since you were "saving them for when you needed them."
The problem with that is that managing your cash and resources can be a fun and immersive part of RPGs. The fantasy of stocking up on potions and antidotes before going out into the wilderness and fighting monsters until your resources are depleted and you need to either use a tent to camp out or travel back to town, sleep at an inn and buy some more potions. Dark Souls is going for a different fantasy, which is why the estus flask system fits that game so well.
@@Tiwill But like.....no one ever buys consumables. I never do. You get to a new shop, the first thing you do is dump all money on new equipment. Monsters usually drop more consumables than you ever use.
However, if you could instead spend money on permanent upgrades to your items (potency, count, special effects) then people would start evaluating tradeoffs, or be incentivized to farm.
@@Thanatos2k I did run into the hoarding problem in Shadow Hearts 2, where I was saving up a few rare consumable attack items that can't be dropped anywhere so I could use them against the final boss, but the final boss only had 1 phase and was fairly easy, so I ended up never getting the satisfying payoff I was looking forward to. By the end of Shadow Hearts 3 however, I was less powerful and the boss was actually challenging, so I got to use the best items I had been saving up in order to turn the tide of that very close final battle, and it felt amazing.
I think this might apply more to turn-based games though. You might be right that in a real-time action RPG, which is more about mechanical skill, an estus flask type approach makes more sense.
By the way, are you the same Thanatos2K who used to post on GameSpot? If so, it's cool seeing a familiar name.
We've been doing it since the 90s but nowadays the only games people think of are Souls games.
Ocarina of Time had a great healing system imho that used a flask system.
Some also heal over time, some instant, some allow slow movement, some make you stretch after...
I’m going to make two arguments for Bloodborne 1.) You should have included the Rally system in this discussion. Bloodborne gives you two chances to fix a mistake, and blood vials is the second of these. Your first choice for healing should be trying to Rally, and I think we can all agree it’s a better option than something like Lifegems as an alternative healing method. 2.) Taking time to grind vials can help the player. Often when a boss beats you over and over again, you get tilted and start making stupid mistakes. Grinding back vials calms you down and gets you back in a sensible mindset for when you try again.
Not saying it’s perfect, but just something to consider.
@@00101001000000110011 "you always get back less hp than what u had" incorrect. If you're fast enough you can get it all back, especially from doing a visceral attack
What should be mentioned is the speed of healing. Dark Souls 2's slow estus healing was a good change left in the dust, and the quick heals (in both animation and healing rate!)in bloodborne made it feel like the default state to be fighting in was to be at full health all the time. Being at low health was far more tense in ds2 because you ask yourself "when CAN I heal?" whereas I felt in bloodborne the tension was either "will this combo attack kill me" or "am I using up my blood vials too fast"
Should've mentioned the additional systems in the games aside from the main ones, like Bloodborne's rally and healing incantations.
And blood rapture
Yeah, not even a mention of Humanity or Embers if sticking purely to items surprised me.
@@DWFTW They also didnt mention either that Bloodbornes vials are percentage heals too. Meaning that theyre useful no matter how much you pump your hp
Healing items kind of fall off in the other games, minus Demons Souls, which has some rare full heal grasses that you can farm
Not sure if you can farm Divine Blessings or Elizabeth Mushrooms etc
In a vacuum I completely agree with what you say about blood vials. But one slightly helpful thing is that the specific place and enemy to farm for blood vials is an amazing teacher of fundamentals. So that does help soften the blow.
It doesn't really soften the blow much after a few farming runs, I'll tell you that. Blood Vial farming is why I quit the game, and I LOVE everything about Bloodborne's world and lore. I just CBA to farm that much. Didn't have that problem with Demon Souls.
I love BB, it’s the only From game I’ve finished, but the farming is something i accept as an unfortunate reality. I’ll occasionally have to put on a podcast and grind out vials
It doesn't if you're bad at it like say me: I cannot parray attacks, I cannot get the timing. I'm a dodge roller with shield as a plan b normally. And re killing easy enemies over and over again isn't helping me learn, it's driving me to give up and play DS2 again
I know people get annoyed with the grinding for healing in Bloodborne, but thematically it makes a lot of sense that you are forced to systematically purge the monsters of the night "A Hunter must Hunt"
I truly think bloodviles and silver bullets are the reason i havent finished bloodborne, despite really wanting to.
If you can beat the Bloodstarved Beast, go to the CUMMMFPK dungeon and use that a couple times. Just put all the money you get from it into Blood Vials and Silver Bullets.
Shit, I'd be willing to give you a hand with the BSB lol
Yup, right there with you. It absolutely is why I quit.
I feel like leaving out the rally system in bloodborne in this is a mistake as it is healing that encourages aggressive gameplay as intended. And for DS2 the fact you don't start with means it forces you to use the life gems and the healing is very slow compared to the other games and if you fail enough the player is punished to half health meaned it's harder for someone struggling a bad reinforcement Loop
That was my issue. I've started playing DS2 for the first time lately. Had to restart because I got into such a negative feedback loop.
The game gets easier later, but starting you with essentially 2 estus (or 1 if you didn't explore the hub) is pretty harsh.
There comes a point later where the low tier gems are kinda useless. The higher tier ones are a bit pricey and rare. But by then you should have 7 or more estus.
It's a more engaging system than 1, but it still had room to grow.
The half health can be mitigated by an early game ring, and DS3 has a similar system (it just shows the removed health as ‘extra’ instead of ‘default) but fair enough. Though also with lifegems you CAN pop one early, to heal over time, albeit that might not be a common use
@@DragonNexus the "low tier" gems are never useless, you can spam them to increase the healing speed and amount, they're also dirt cheap from malentia
@@_Bungus you can farm effigies from dogs and ice hedgehogs, you can also use bonfire ascetics(farmable) to resupply a wooden chest with five of them each time.
@@_Bungus You can farm them infinitely in the company of champions(One of its main effects is that enemies infinitely respawn) from the enemies that drop them.
Heck the bonfire at mcduff's is the best effigy farming spot in the game and it doesn't take long to reach it.
Say what you will, but I always thought that superman returns, city health system was a really cool idea.
second wind accidently revealing that they didn´t play Armored core 6 for their review.
Watching J go ham with Bloodborne is like seeing a funny teacher actually get angry. You thought you’ve seen it before, but no, no you have not.
If you said Fromsoft games, where was armoured core?
Saying sekiro is more linear than DS3 is a bit silly, theyre both on rails aside from one brief moment mid game where they both get about 3 paths, then back to linear again. They both require similar amounts of exploration to find upgrades by going very slightly out of the way at most. Both S tier or neither.
I commented pretty much the same thing but for some reason Sekiro actually felt ever so slightly less linear to me perhaps because the way you could traverse the areas themselves is so much more open with the traversal mechanics even if the overall progression isn't super nonlinear. And maybe I'm misremembering but it feels like there were slightly more branching paths in Sekiro? Idk I might be wrong about that though...
I think Blood Vials are fine in Bloodborne because the other sources of healing encourage players to engage with the combat (Rally System and Visceral Attacks + Blood Rapture).
I feel like the systems in Dark Souls 2 were designed more to encourage use of the new mid-level summoning system. And you marked other games for discouraging exploration and being linear, but Dark Souls 3 was quite linear. If praising non-linearity, then Dark Souls 1 should be higher because it acknowledges individual campfires being reused for different challenges as the game goes on. I honestly don't think there is much difference in quality between all three when it comes to healing mechanics, but that isn't a very exciting conclusion.
One thing I am undecided on is the upgrade cap in Elden Ring. When you do new game plus, there is no benefit whatsoever to gathering up any of the upgrade items anymore, because they cannot be used. Smart and balanced design, or money left on the table, Waiting for some clever system to make use of the overflow upgrade materials?
First let me say I've been adoring design delve! It's given me a lot of great insight on systems design theory in video games. Your videos have provided plenty of food for thought on how I approach evaluating games and I appreciate that immensely. I also have a love of tier lists as many viewers do and I hope to see more of them from you!
With that having been said, I think compared to the generally outstanding body of your work on Second Wind, the analysis in this video is missing some key parts. First and most seriously: the perspective on Bloodborne about farming blood vials is well-received, but it's leaving out the important context that blood vials are not the primary healing system in Bloodborne. If you're playing reasonably well, most of your routine healing should come from the rally mechanic, which you mention only in passing. The rally system provides a negative (balancing) feedback mechanic that mitigates much of the positive feedback loop issue with blood vials. By allowing you to recover by going on the offensive by spending only stamina, a resource that continually regenerates, it allows reliable healing while in combat without spending vials. As a primary healing mechanic, blood vials would be middling, but importantly, they aren't the primary healing mechanic in the game. They're a secondary healing mechanic, and I think without bringing up the rally system as part of the discussion, you're leaving a lot out of your analysis in terms of how blood vials impact gameplay on a moment-to-moment basis. Healing in Bloodborne overall feels really, really different from healing in previous Souls games because of how these mechanics play together, and you've mostly skipped right over that.
Second, I think lumping Demons' Souls' grass-based healing system in with Bloodborne's blood vials is a similar miss. When Demons' Souls (DeS) came out in 2009, it had a very run-of-the-mill RPG healing system, one similar to most RPGs at the time: its healing items were grasses, and it had a weak grass, a middling grass, a strong grass, and an unlimited full heal grass, same as potions in many other games. And while you're right that it wasn't great, starting first with Dark Souls's estus flask by comparing it to the floating health packs and regenerating health of earlier games in other genres is an apples-to-oranges comparison that loses important context by skipping over DeS: FromSoft realized that DeS's healing was pretty weak and set out to make a better one, which is what led to the estus flask in Dark Souls, an imperfect system that nevertheless offered significant improvement over the DeS system that came before it.
Third, with respect to DS2, you haven't really discussed the difference between life gems' slow healing over time--with stronger life gems offering more total healing but importantly not faster healing--and the upgradable estus flask's relatively fast healing with a really slow animation. They have to be managed differently. Life gems are faster to use, but they force you to play more defensively temporarily, whereas you have to be careful about only using the estus flask when you have time to stop and stand still, but its healing is much more significant and faster. Both of them offer different advantages in context, and while you're right that having essentially unlimited access to the cheap basic life gem means you don't need to economize healing between encounters nearly as much in DS2 as in DS3 and ER, it also mitigates the "doomed run" problem of taking a dumb hit early on getting back to where you were and just scrubbing out back to the bonfire because you need to be full on healing past a certain point if you want to have a chance at the boss.
So while you've covered a lot of good ground here, you've left out aspects of the way these systems fit together, in my opinion ultimately to the detriment of your analysis. I hope in future videos when you do a deep dive on how a mechanic evolves across games in a series you'll be able to analyze them more holistically with respect to other gameplay systems they interact with, and talk more about how they impact the style and feel of the game in the immediate term, in addition to how they shape your path through the game on a longer scale.
no mention of faith or pyromancy healing + praising the das3 blue flasks makes me thing he didn't fully engage in the mechanics of any of the games. bad video.
The one advantage of the Demons' Souls/Bloodborne expendable healing items, which I didn't hear mentioned, was how it allows you to collect additional ready-to-use healing between checkpoints, (theoretically) allowing the developers to balance longer/harder vs shorter/easier inter-checkpoint stretches by having more or less healing items for your to find along your way. Of course, Elden Ring would accomplish this MUCH better, and I'm not saying that it's enough to raise the quality of the systems by much; but I also feel like Demons' Souls deserves a bit more mercy than Bloodborne because it was just doing things the way that almost every RPG before it had (where you could carry effectively unlimited stacks of consumable healing items), whereas Bloodborne CHOSE to regress from Dark Souls' fairly brilliant innovation of the checkpoint-replenished estus flasks.
Okay, once again : THERE'S TWO DARK SOULS 2.
The original one, the one on PS3/360 is far better balanced, and the added healing items are far less required, which help the intricate economy caused by having enemies respawn being finite : do you use your souls to upgrade, or to get more healing ? Upgrades are permanent, healing isn't, and you can run dry. Still not as good as others, sure, vastly not as bad as people think it is.
The one on PS4/One has like double the ennemies count, worse positioning, and from the footage of No-man's Wharf I bet it's that version you're judging and not the PS3/360 version
Edit : Also the healing being progressive rather than instant make it a bigger gamble : heal now and risk to die while healing, or wait a bit longer for a safer moment ? It's like Hollow knight healing, except you can chose to risk it and attack or try to retreat added on top of it, more choices, more to gamble, more to lose.
I like how usually Bloodborne is at the top of these tier lists but as this is specifically about healing items it’s at the bottom for once. 😅
Would have been worth to talk about the actual healing process more. You mentioned how effective blood vials are, but the actual drinking animation between DS1/2 and 3/Elden Ring are night and day. Not only does the animation take way longer, how much and how quickly health is recovered also differs and reflects the speed of the combat in each game. I think it's almost too effective in DS3/Elden Ring, where players might rather panic chug instead of trying to engage more with the combat.
While mentioning of healing stones for DS2 makes sense, it would have been appropriate to talk about Bloodborne's heal on hit mechanic and how it wants the player to be aggressive.
Lastly for feedback loops, mentioning DS2's max hp loss on death would also be relevant.
Needless to say, I didn't have an issue with Bloodborne's healing system except for the very beginning.
I would still put Bloodborne above Demon's Souls, because in Demon's Souls, you can only farm healing in 1 area, so your supply diminishes significantly faster when venturing in areas 2 through 5. Plus, Bloodborne has the rally system to potentially save you from needing to use blood vials.
Note, I'm not saying Bloodborne's healing system deserves to be A or S. When I first started, I found myself having to farm repeatedly when I was stuck on a boss, and it sucked. I just think it deserves to be on a higher tier than Demon's Souls. Maybe D or C tier.
Also, if I had to rank healing item's lore and narrative significance, I would absolutely place Bloodborne's at the top. Not sure how I would rank the others.
Two points, One: this is not all of From Software's Healing Systems (you ignoring pre-demon-souls games and AC), Two: I think the DS1 system is better then you give credit for.
Honestly, I thought Dark Souls 2 healing system was really good, and get an unfair rep. Because, well, you only get an infinite amount of THE worst healing in the game, and that healing is really slow. So if you want that quick burst of healing during most fights, you still need to drink estus.
And its not like the other games don't have other means of tiny dribbles of health to even you out. Like the Evil Eye ring in Dark Souls, or the Adjudicator's Shield in Demon's Souls.
Bloodborne is an interesting one to me, because I like it the most due to one very specific aspect: it ALWAYS heals about 30% of your health. Now, that doesn't sound too exciting, but it means that when you go through NG+, the healing is always consistent. In DS3 or Elden Eing, however, that healing starts to fall off, and as someone who's...not great at these games, that always began to hurt as my health went up but then my healing was doing less and less, relatively.
I'm not necessarily suggesting the DS2 ranking is wrong, but I personally don't think the life gems are as big of a misstep as suggested. I can't speak for everyone, but most of the times I died in DS2 was before I ran out of estus due to taking too many hits before I could heal. Life gems can help if you do run out, but they work pretty slow, and as such, they were generally not very helpful except outside of combat. There's also the one hollowing mechanic where your health gets capped at a lower percentage of your overall health every time you die until you use an effigy item to bring it back to 100%. Narratively, this shows the slow hollowing process over time, which is kind of awesome, albeit controversial. The game caps this degradation at 50% of overall health (fully hollow), but I think the life gems were probably included to alleviate some of the fear that this mechanic would elicit. I didn't think it was much of a factor after the early game when I had more health and realized I wouldn't run out of effigies as long as I didn't overuse them, but those life gems did alleviate some of the dread that came with it. The life gems also worked so slowly that I rarely used them by the midgame. I might be wrong, but I think the life gems didn't really stack either because it was based on the time of healing rather than the amount. You couldn't take two at once for double the healing. At best, they were good for topping off the health bar as I headed back to the last bonfire, but maybe others used them differently. After dying to bosses multiple times waiting for the gems to kick in, I realize that I could probably do better focusing on dodging rather than fumbling through my quick items and using gems in a panic.
Basically, my experience was that the hollowing and life gem mechanics were only significant in the early game, and while I'm not necessarily saying the ranking should be higher or lower, these mechanics do make the healing system more complicated.
I’d argue that Dark Souls II is not the ugly stepchild, rather Bloodborne is the lovely stepchild. Dark Souls II is a natural progression of the Dark Souls experience, whereas Bloodborne is intentionally a unique experience and is not supposed to be for everyone. I love Bloodborne but I’ve actually never finished it because I was never able to master its core mechanics, by which I mean parrying and visceral attacks. Done right, a player can progress through the game without relying on blood vials. For better or for worse, the player does need to “git gud” to enjoy Bloodborne.
I love bloodborne, and I agree with a majority of your points on the game, especially the gripe about farming but there’s one thing that I think you missed in regards to the blood vial. Attrition. While it may only pertain to players in between the “git gud” and “beginner” camps, the fact that you can acquire more instances of healing while you go through an area is appreciated when compared to the DS1 Estus flask where you can only get uses back at bonfires.
That said, DS3 has a similar mechanic where clearing the right groups of enemies can give you another estus charge but it feels far more inconsistent.
Skipping over the entire Armored Core series, Deracine, and anything that came before Demon's Souls? Tsk tsk, Design Delve ;)
Another note on the Elden Ring upgrades, it really ties into the whole design philosophy of "If you're struggling, try going somewhere else." Since they (in most cases) aren't locked behind a tough mini boss like in Sekiro and instead just lying on the ground, an already struggling player can just go out and try to find more even in higher level areas without having to deal with having to fight higher level enemies, while a succeeding player can just collect them as they go about normally.
I've been playing Pillars of Eternity 2 and it's convinced me that regenerating health is best for Baldur's Gate style rpgs. It allows the designer to build encounters knowing that the player is going to have a party at full health with most of it's resources available.
I still weirdly like the blood vial system? It sucks when you have to farm them but it creates peaks and valleys in the game. You feel like you've hit rock bottom after you've lost them all to a boss and have to pivot your adventure. Then again I also liked the first time getting cursed in DS1 and having to go on a quest to find a cure so what do I know haha
tbh i hated how ds3 tied magic and healing, you already have to sacrifice leveling health and take hits from gear to defense/hp as a mage but sure also give me maybe half as much healing as a pure warrior...which gets even worse when ur a summon and that healing is cut in half (rounding down) again
Wait how did you determine that Sekiro is more linear than Dark Souls 3? There is significantly more variety in the routes you can take to progress through the game and even the paths you take to get through the individual areas.
The one thing I hated about sekiro mechanically that kept me from continuing was when you continue to die it punishes you even harder by giving you a health penalty. I'm already bad at the game why give me another punishment
Lifegems are great. They are so slow as to be of limited use during combat, but also prevent you from having to end an exploration early because you took one too many hits.
Elden Ring also drip feeds estus flask refills if you kill groups of enemies, which helps when exploring in the overworld for long periods of time.
I am so sick of people acting like Dark Souls invented healing potions in action games.
Has no one played Ocarina of Time?
But where is the Armored Core healing system?
FromSoftwaremade other games, not only Souls ones.
@10:18
"It's. *_Fuhghing._* Perfect."
- JM8 on Elden Ring's heal flasks, 2024
One thing I do miss about Dark Souls' healing system was the rite of kindling. If you're really struggling with a specific location, you can burn more humanity to get more healing for that bonfire, making navigating that zone or fight a boss with a bigger margin for error without taking anything away from the actual gameplay challenges you have to face like the summons in ER.
I hear that Hollow Knight music, the most fromsoft game that wasn't made by fromsoft haha
Amazing) Very fun to watch those healing systems ranked!
semi disapointed you didnt touch ac6
While I do hate how finite Bloodborne's healing is, I do adore the actual healing itself. I press a button, and I immediately heal exactly 40% of my health. It's quick, it's consistent, and it never asks you to upgrade it. I love it so much. On repeat playthroughs, picking up estus shards and bone ashes is kinda annoying to me, but Bloodborne let's me just play the game without having to worry about it. Furthermore, the more vigor, or I guess vitality, you have, the more blood vials heal you. It's great... until you run out and start to curse the game to hell and back, but that's Bloodborne for you.
Also, regaining health by attacking enemies is really fun, I just wish you wouldn't also take more damage while dodging, as that can lead to cheap one shots, which completely ignore the healing mechanics.
Narratively, my favorite is Sekiro's, where your healing ressource is a medical achievement created by friends and allies. I'm weirdly attached to it.
Mechanically, I think my favorite is Armored Core 6, should that count. It has the consistency of Bloodborne's healing which, ignoring the finite nature, is my favorite, otherwise, but AC6 forgoes the limited availability. Every time you start a mission or respawn, you have the same amount of heals that heal a consistent amount.
But if AC6 doesn't count, DS3 and Elden Ring are my favorite.
But on a side comment, why did you bring up the prayer beads in Sekiro? I think they're great for upgrading your health, most of the time, but if I remember correctly, they do not affect your healing in any way, whatsoever. You get more heals by picking up gourd seeds, same as in DS2, 3 and ER, and you increase the amount you heal by purchasing the skills in one of the skill trees. Unlike in Bloodborne, the healing amount is not tied to the amount of health you have, so I'm not sure what your point was for the prayer beads, unless I'm missing something. Whoops
"A friend to contemplate sins with" goes needlessly hard
i was a little disappointed you didn't mention the rally mechanic when talking about bloodborne which encourages the player to be more aggressive and take more chances. the rally mechanic is bloodbornes main healing mechanism with blood vials being the secondary. in some ways it can turn a boss fight into a DPS contest (basically if you go swinging at them and their DPS is lower than yours you will get back any damage they dealt through rally and win on pure beastly ferocity)
Yeah but it has the exact same re-enforcement loop issue. If you're not good at the game and can't land hits, it does nothing whatsoever to help you, it only works when you're able to land hits reliably
After the first two entries, I thought we were going to get the "all ranked the same" joke played out. But it is very clear how the system has changed over time, and exactly why Elden Ring gets it right.
Would love to see this again but with the weapon upgrade systems
"No offense"
"None taken."
I love it when he says: "Welcome.. to design de"
I never realised how cool blood vials look since they're so damn small on screen. I legit never saw it blown up that big before, I did play Bloodborne on a fairly small TV tho...
I kinda want to see other Soulslike stuff ranked because I have "Lies of P" on the mind, but on a similar note I do think Bloodborne should be bumped up a tier. Yes, the healing *item* complaints are valid here, but the Rally mechanic where you can regain *some* health by attacking fast enough does drastically change the game flow. Lies of P has a mix of the recharging item on rest while also having the Rally mechanic *and* if you run out of healing items you can regain up to 1 repeatedly, which helps against the longer boss fights the game has.
Rally actually is the same type of punishing system though. You're actively punished when you fail, which means it takes longer to get to practice Rally because you need to farm more vials because you're struggling because you're not great at rally so you farm more vials and try again and again and again.
Relying on Rally to heal with vials just as an occasional bonus is a luxury you don't have unless you git gud, and the game actively punishes you for not already being gud, and makes it boring and tedious to practice at getting gud.
@@beckstheimpatient4135 Rally is still more healing outside of the item system though and is at least a way to heal that can affect the gameplay loop positively (get the player to understand this should be a more aggressive playstyle game). I only said it should be bumped up a tier because it has Rally while, as far as I understand, Demon Souls appears to be just as bad healing item wise as Bloodborne but without an alternative. Bloodborne at D tier instead of Swamp.
For the buy more argument for blood vials, you do find the consumable items that give you more blood echoes throughout the world. I always saved those and used them to buy blood vials when a boss was ruining my day.
One-time echo consumables are about as useful as one-time healing vials.
Took me a moment to decipher:
A Game Designer Ranks From
Software's Healing Systems
As far as Bloodborne's healing system goes, I have two thoughts. Thematically/world building-wise it works very well, having to get drops from enemies showing just how addicted Yharnhamites are to it. Secondly, I think maybe FS had counted on players using the rally system more instead of just spamming heal as in previous games. Maybe the fault lies in us for not adapting to this new, thematically wonderful system?
I agree wholeheartedly about blood vials. My least favorite part about having to farm/buy them is if you're having to do so because of a boss. The game is slamming the breaks on you figuring out how the mechanics of the fight works and forces you to kill the first enemies in the game over and over. On top of that, the only way you can respawn the enemies to farm them is to go through 2 loading screens because the lanterns only teleport you back to the Hunter's dream. Blood vials are such a genuinely terrible game design that it made me stop and contemplate if I wanted to beat the game every time I got stuck on a boss.
What is the background music for this? Reminds me of Risk of Rain. I want to use it for my TTRPG!
MAJULA THEME IS BEST THEME. IT IS KNOWN.
EDIT: Also, I *never* liked healing gems. I used 'em; don't be stupid. I didn't LIKE using them though. I definitely didn't stock up on them.
If only people had read the notes on Adapatation and Agility. That's 90% of the DS2 hate right there.
POWER STANCE. Accept no substitutes. Weapon sets (SCOFF). Elden Ring has come closest with TYPE matching. What about my Crooked Sword Blue Flame Blue Flame Combo?
Well, Bloodborne forces the players that struggle with the combat, to engage in more combat. I get that grinding feels punishing, but it is done with purpose and doesn't deserve the hate it gets.
I really like Path of Exile's healing pot system.
Limited potion slots making you pick between HP or mana (or others)
Cooldowns on them so you can't gather huge stockpiles of potions to push through.
Strikes a nice middle ground
Dark Souls 1: YOU DIED
Dark Souls 2: YOU DIED
Dark Souls 3: YOU DIED
Healing systems working as intended :D
I would love a discussion of non-FROM Soulslike healing items
Most notably the Pulse Cell from Lies of P, the Medical Injections from The Surge 2, and the Phoenix Feathers from Death's Gambit, since most other Soulslikes don't really innovate through their healing item.