I didn’t like Moe’s casino. The service was terrible. I couldn’t get a drink at my table. The cocktail waitresses were nowhere to be found for some reason.
The reason for the hit on Vito was not retaliation for turning down Solozzo. It was a result of Sonny displaying an interest in making a deal if he were in charge of the family. I thought this was pretty clearly established in the movie both from Solozzo's reaction to Sonnys comments in the meeting and by Vito's reaction after the meeting.
@@voodoochild1975az Justification is irrelevant to taking out a mob boss. There needs to be a reason. And even in that case you are treading on very treacherous turf. In any case, we know from the movie and the book that it was Solozo that carried out the attempt on Vito (with Barzini either backing the move or giving subtle permission). These people are businessmen. Wars are bad for business unless they can be ended quickly and there is a profitable objective behind it (e.g., remove the old man and cut a deal with Sonny). You take out the old man because of a bruised ego and the war is a battle of attrition with lots of blood shed and money lost.
which is why I can never understand Solozzo saying 'you can't do business with sonny', he's a 'hothead' in the restaurant slaying scene. surely being able to do business with Sonny is the whole point.
@@intelligencelimited2708 Probably a combination of Solozzo admitting a misjudgment along with trying to butter up Michael by portraying him as the sensible one in the family. He correctly anticipated how Sonny would react initially, but also keep in mind the plan was for Vito to be dead where he would, in theory, negotiate peace with Sonny from a more favorable position.
This theory perfectly explains why such a meeting to discuss a buyout was done so publicly. The more people that were present at Michael's proposal the more all the players would hear Moe's outright rejection. Hell, even Johnny Fontane was present at the meeting. I always wondered why Michael would make such a bold proposal so openly instead of behind closed doors and this channel answered it. Thank you!
Due to the extensive mentorship of Vito Corleone,Micheal knew about old enemies as well as the new and potential enemies .He also knew that when a adversary sees you in a weakened state just like the position the Corleone family was in at the time it brings out all the sharks! Any and everyone that hated or disliked you will allow themselves to be known because they no longer fear retaliation from you! That’s how Micheal was able to kill so many enemies at once due to their hatred and arrogance it blinded them. Not once did they think they were being led into a trap!!!! A fool always thinks they’re smart through their own eyes! Moe Green heard about the losses the Corleone family had taken.He felt they were finished! He would have never put hands on Fredo if Vito was alive,that was also his reasoning behind him disrespecting Fredo and Micheal every chance he got. Greene knew he had Hyman Roth as well as the heads of the other families as allies. He no longer perceived the Corleone family as a threat! How wrong he and the others were.They all paid a hefty price for their stupidity with their lives.
Vito was alive when Moe slapped Fredo around in public. But the Godfather was sick and Michael was now in charge. So Moe saw this as weakness and that embolden him to slap Fredo.
As soon as Michael mentioned Moe humiliating Fredo in public Moe knew he made a grave mistake. He probably didn’t think this news would get all the way back to New York because he assumed the witnesses to this were loyal to him, obviously Fredo didn’t say anything, but at that moment he found out Michael had eyes everywhere. That’s why he blew up, he couldn’t make deals with all the families, he had to hope Barzini would protect him.
The plot of the Godfather and Godfather II is a string of refusals, beginning with Vito's refusal to murder the men who assaulted the undertaker's daughter, then Woltz's refusal to give Johnny Fontaine a part in a movie, and ending with Michael's refusal to leave a briefcase of cash with Hyman Roth in Cuba (not to mention Kay's refusal to have another one of Michael's children). I guess the lesson is that if you refuse someone in the criminal world you better be sure you have power over them -- or at least have a really, really good reason.
Moe Green is based on two people. Buggy Siegel and Moe Dalitz. The Desert Inn was the mob’s first venture into casino gambling before they opened Vegas. Bugsy is famous for his part and his demise, but Moe Dalitz is the actual person. If you watch the movie, you will see a building that is named The Desert Inn in Las Vegas. That’s the wink and the nod to Dalitz.
Moe Sedway and Gus Greenbaum. they were Lansky lieutenants who took over the Flamingo after Siegel died and almost instantly turned it into a huge success. Sedway died of cancer in 1952 and Greenbaum tried to retire after selling the Flamingo in 1955 but Lansky made him take over the Riviera but he developed a drug habit and started skimming profits and he was murdered in 1959.
I have watched the Godfather series for years and I always learn something new. The plots and characters are complex and intriguing. Truly a work of cinematic art.
@ChubbyAmadeusFan I couldn't agree with you more. I went to the movies in 1972 to see the first Godfather. I was I'm my mid twenty's then. I am in my 70s now, and every time the Godfather comes on AMC for their marathon week of showing all 3, I never miss it. So I've technically been watching the Godfather movies all of them for 51 years now, and I, too, always find something new I missed in over 50 years😂. It never gets old or uninteresting to me either 🙌🏼. I read the book first. I'm sure you know the movie is very similar but not true to the book. However, the movie versions were awesome.
One other thing I think is worth pointing out is it’s explicitly stated that Moe physically assaulted Fredo in public. Since Fredo is the son of a Don at least and maybe even a Made member of the Corleone family, the family would’ve had justification to kill Greene without reprisal, at least in real life. Hell you could even say they’d be honor bound to do so, which means not doing so plays right in to Michael’s ultimate plan to appear weak and aloof.
Imagine if you or I beat up the brother of a Mafia boss in public. The mafia boss of the most powerful Mafia family in New York for that matter. We would either kiss their feet out of gratitude ofr not killing us, or we would get prepared for war if we could, or we would cooperate with the FBI, turn state evidence and enter the Witness Protection Program.
@ Poison oak Well maybe that's why Moe brazenly smacked him around..... """The Corleone family has """ lost it's muscle 💪"''" Huge Sun Zhu mistake.. I New he was Dead when I saw that as a kid.. yikes 😬😳😳😱
It is (along with GFII) the greatest movie and sequel) ever made! The best recreation of the 40s, 50s and 60s sets ever! The story is amazing and spellbinding!
@@dougm659 To us maybe. 10 years ago, I asked her 20 something if he ever saw the godfather. His response was “I tried, but it’s just so boring”. Knowing that the Godfather is far from boring I had to ask myself what’s wrong with this guy. I realized that without dinosaurs or special effects he couldn’t follow. That was 10 years ago. Wanna stress out a bunch of thirty year olds? Put on the godfather.
@@mattm7798 I know. All that dialogue. No dinosaurs or superheroes to keep it interesting. So many words. How could a film with no special effects be so celebrated. One car explosion. The fire was nice but it was over so fast. All storyline? That’s so boomer. It definitely takes a few years between viewings. It’s not easy staying focused on a movie that’s soooo long. After a while it could affect the mental. I had a cousin that watched part one and two BACK TO BACK! Let’s just say that he’s not the same guy I knew growing up.
Because if you rewatch the movie, the dialogue: “i talked to Bazini” is said by the actor with such a different tone of voice that is seems like a different person altogether.
Yess!!! Thank you for noticing and pointing that out too LMFAO yeah it sounds like James Earl Jones/Darth Vader said that line in the movie it's always caught me off guard/made me laugh lol happy that there are others who noticed that lol
also of note...Fredo's instantly coming to the defense of Moe Greene slapping him around revealed he had learned nothing about taking side's against the family. His days became numbered as well after that exchange. A POWERFUL scene all around.
I absolutely agree. I still adore this movie series simply because it is so complex and truly reflects the wonderful partnership Coppola and the author had when they worked together on the screenplay.
To be fair, it is in this scene that Michael tells Fredo: "You're my older brother, and I love you. But never take sides -- with anyone -- against the family again. Ever." His days were not "numbered." Michael never would have killed Fredo if Fredo hadn't demonstrated that his resentment of Michael would lead to him putting the lives of Michael AND HIS WIFE AND KIDS in jeopardy, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
“It was Barzini all along.” You are 100% correct on that. Sollozzo legitimately wanted Vito to accept the offer, and Tataglia also wanted the deal as it would allow them to operate a nationwide drug cartel and get rich. Vito’s political connections were key to that. But Barzini was playing his own game from the very start because he knew Vito would refuse it. However he secretly backed Sollozzo and Tataglia for the very reason you state as it set up a legitimate way for him to take out Vito who was his main adversary, and the only remaining family stronger than his. Where Barzini fumbles is that he doesn’t judge the younger Corleone’s correctly. Most importantly he misjudged Michael completely. First, Mike removing Sollozzo was an essential stroke. It eliminated the justification to finish the job on Vito, which kept the political influence of the family, and half of their power intact. Even though he was in a hospital bed, Vito’s survival is what allows Sonny to keep fighting the war instead of being forced to give in. Second, he foolishly thinks Vito giving in to all demands at the meeting meant he had won, when really Vito won. Sure Vito came out looking weak, and had to give into the deal he refused at the start. But he saved the family because he knew with Sonny gone, that the only one who had the strength and ability to keep the family on top was Mike, and he could not bring Mike home, clear his name and move his political connections behind Mike if the war kept going. Barzini had the Corleone’s on the ropes and failed to finish the job, though he did try as in the book it mentions that the attempt on Mike in Sicily happened after the peace deal in NYC.
Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
Of course it was Barzini all along. How does Sollozzo benefit if Vito is killed? Vito has the political contacts, not Sonny. Barzini must have told Sollozzo to kill Vito. Vito's mistake was sending Luca Brazi out to investigate. If he hadn't Luca wouldn't have been killed and then Sollozzo couldn't come after Vito. Sollozzo couldn't come after Vito until Luca was out of the way.
@@michaelcolfin8464 Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
@@RobertIsraelKabakoff The actual legal jargon is the Uniform Commercial Code, or U.C.C., which has been adopted in every country and codified in each state statutes. I am a lawyer in Colorado and the Colorado Revised Statutes codified the U.C.C. in Title 4. The legal citation in each state will vary, but, trust me, every legal case, whether civil or criminal involves contracts. If you are charged criminally, it just means that you were notified of the penalties associated with your conduct and you accepted the terms and conditions, including prison if you commit the act and found guilty, or accept a plea bargain. Everything is just business and contracts, they just do not explain it in law schools.
About the attempt on Mike's life, the book states that the Don Corleone isn't sure if it was set up before or after the peace deal - which is one of the reasons why Mike's comeback is delayed for months: Vito is extra careful about Barzini's taking another shot at Mike.
The book makes clear Michael’s efforts to buy Greene out were more sincere than what the movie shows. Mike went the extra mile. He did not get angry with Moe.
Yes, remember that Moe (real life Bugsy) was a Jew among Sicilians and like Hyman Roth (real life Meyer Lansky) and they were very close. Roth (Lansky) was very upset about the Moe (Bugsy) execution because they came up together with Charlie (Lucky) Luciano in real life. I don’t know which character (if any) represents Luciano in the series. Luciano was deported back to Italy in real life but is said to have run the mob from there. I find it interesting that (for the sake of time) the Al Capone part of the book was also left out of the movie.
According to the book, when Micheal is back in New York and, in a meeting, is informed about Greene's refusal to sell at any price, he simply shrugs. The others in the room are shocked, but Tessio "leans back in his chair," thinking "Moe Greene is a dead man."
He cuts a deal with Greene and gives him the money and then Greene is assassinated by some unknown assailant that Michael claims to not know and the money disappears, thus it looks like Michael bought out green in a clean deal and someone other than Michael wacked him to steal the money. Alas, Micheal is off the hook for Greene’s murder. Happened all the time in Afghanistan. afghan business and afghan politics were handled the same way kill or be killed and blame the Taliban. He won the bid but he paid the price. An afghan politician and general contractor’s response to the murder of the 2 pakistani’s that outbid him on a road project in Kandahar province. Apparently they were killed by the Taliban.
most people hate when i say this = it was a good fictional book and it wasn't based on a true story but a few of the characters were drawn from real life personas nothing more nothing less
the scene is so emotional, dramatic and good that I didn't even realize I never thought about the mob and tactical point of view of the scene Michael being furious over Fredo getting slapped around overshadows the whole scene
I think the most critical fact in discerning Michael's state of mind going into the meeting was the fact that Moe slapped Fredo around in public and Michael knew it. As a Jew, Moe wasn't even a made guy. For a Jewish associate to put hands on the son of a Don (he was supposed to be mentoring) broke all the rules of the mafia. It was a HUGE sign of disrespect to the Corleone family. That alone warranted a death sentence for Moe. Notice how Michael raised that issue at the perfect time when Moe was talking tough. It immediately put Moe on the defensive. When Moe replied that he had to "straighten out" Fredo Michael's reply and look was deadly. "You straightened my brother out?" Right there was the death sentence for Moe. I think going into the meeting Michael knew Moe wouldn't sell. But he gave Moe a chance to bury himself and Moe jumped right in. If a deal had been reached or discussed Michael would not have raised the issue of Moe slapping Fredo around. When Michael did raise it he already knew he would order Moe's killing.
@urkersen5246 Not at all. Don Vito had a good relationship with Hyman Roth. And the real Italian mob had close relations with Jewish mobsters like Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Seigel. A lot of folks don't know that the infamous mafia hit squad "Murder Inc." had several Jewish hitmen on the payroll.
@@urkersen5246 Of course. And racists, sexist, bigots too. That's just the way the majority of the country was at that time. Almost alf the country is still like this today. even
Was this why Moe made a point of telling Michael that he had "made my bones" when Michael was still a child? To say that even though he was Jewish he was an equal "made man" member? Moe's whole attitude shows that he had absolutely no understanding of Sicilian family values
@Sciencegrinds I think you're right. Moe was projecting toughness amid his insecurity as a Jewish gangster in a sea of Italians/Sicilians. The way he emphasized that he "talked" to Barzini was a further attempt to bolster his street cred. He thought named dropping Barzini would protect him.
It makes sense. Michael even told Moe to think about a price, meaning Moe had the opportunity to name his own price and get out, but he turned Michale down flat. After refusing Michael’s generous offer, Moe was fair game.
Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
@@robertperry4439 The earliest known law codes are the Codes of Ur-Nammu (2100-2050 BCE) which deal with fines and punishments for bodily harm. They predate the Code of Hammurabi (1792-1750) and the closest those 282 edicts come to contract law are those that refer to construction. One could go with Plato's last Dialogue 'The Laws' (350 BCE) but it only recognized basic categories for cancelling agreements. How about the Xi Zhou Dynasty (11-10 BCE)? Oops, they had mostly government regulations and provisions for arbitration. Rome? The Twelve Tables (449 BCE) to the Corpus Juris Civilis (529 AD) form the basis there. Torts and punishment for not fulfilling contracts. Back to China with the 'Tang Lu' (681-907 AD) but it doesn't distinguish between criminal, civil, and contract law and mostly dealt with property disputes. Hmmm... none of these deal with international contract law... likely because there were no nations. Kingdoms, empires, tribes, etcetera, but no nations. And none are 5000 years old. And none say "You must accept or negotiate if offered money". The only good thing about your statement is that I can tender you a penny to stop talking out of your ass.
@@PR-BEACHBOY Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
@@robertperry4439 Exactly, so Michael Coreleone was legally obligated and authorized to have Moe Greene Shot right in the eyeball, under international contract law established 5000 years ago. :D
Michael knew well and good the Moe Green wouldn't sell it out. You're 100% correct. It was just a ruse to get justification to take him out. They didn't come out and say it in the movie, but was easily deduced.
It all goes back to the beginning of the film when Michael explains to Kay what "an offer he can't refuse" means. Either the subject accepts, or we simply take it from him. But either way, we are getting what we want. As a mob associate, Bugsy (Moe) should have known that's what was happening. Had he named a price, it's most likely the Corleones would have met it and he would have walked away with a lot of money. Ironically, this is the same kind of thing that happened to Hoffa (played by Pacino) in Irishman.
I don't think there's any way Greene survives. The insult of how the brother (older one at that) of the new Godfather is physically, AND PUBLICALLY, abused was a capital offense. Had Greene come back with a number, Michael would have low balled it and the result would've been the same.
Exactly, Moe being an associate knew hot they worked and rolled and knew that one YOU DON'T EVER RAISE YOUR HAND TO A MOB PERSON ESPECIALLY ONE THAT IS SON OF A DON. Two, He took money from the Corleones for his businesses and at the very least he should have given the offer to buy him out a listen and even a counter offer. But he truly thought that the Corleones where done and finished and so he didn't have to respect them.
@@Ignats75 One character absent from the first movie was Roth, hard to gauge Michael's awareness of their relationship until Roth metions it, trying to use it as leverage, in the second one.
@@chizorama Still. Cardinal rule. NEVER, i mean NEVER does an unmade man physically touch a made man or a made man's family. That by itself is a capital offense. The lack of respect for the "office" of the Godfather is another capital crime in that culture. Nope, Moe was deadman walking.
I never even noticed this until just now. During Moe Greene's rampage, Fredo LITERALLY has turned his back on Michael. For Michael, this would be an unforgivable sin. He was initially ready to MAYBE forgive him, but Fredo's fall was well underway by this time. Buh-bye, Fredo.
Michael isn't the King of England; protocol is not that rigid. What bothered Michael was Fredo's attempt to execute an end run around him right in front of him and everyone else in that room! Even then, Michael never would've murdered his own brother if Fredo had gotten back in line. But when he demonstrated that his resentment of Michael would lead to him -- wittingly or unwittingly -- putting the lives of Michael AND HIS WIFE AND KIDS in jeopardy, then in Michael's eyes he had to go. But the idea that Michael was itching to kill Fredo because of this scene seems to me to be viewers bringing their future knowledge into this moment. The Michael of Godfather Part I is ruthless, sure, but he's not yet the man who will order his own brother's murder. And he certainly wouldn't have done it for some minor deviation from protocol.
Excellent topic. Michael is basically feeling out everyone who is loyal to the Corleone's; even if Vito is gone. Michael wants to find out who is gonna be with him once he makes his move and even Clemenza and Tessio have this conversation with Michael as well.
Michael IS different from his family: he’s so damn cold. The rest of them are (among other things) warm-hearted and passionate (often to the point of recklessness in the case of Sonny and Connie). Michael plays the long game with all of the family’s rivals and allows them to think he’s weak - something Sonny could never do. Even Vito didn’t have the level of deep planning that Michael had, hence the hit on him taking place and the Tattalias seeing through Luca Brazi’s attempt to infiltrate them. There’s no doubt Michael was giving Moe Greene enough rope to hang himself with in this scene. He was definitely there to rile him up rather than seriously try to make a deal. Michael would have known that his ongoing pretence of weakness meant that Greene would underestimate him. Anyone admitting they were in talks with Barzini, the boss secretly behind all of the family’s woes, ultimately got killed: Greene, Carlo and Tessio, for example. Was it just business? Was some of it motivated by revenge for the hits on Vito, Sonny and Apollonia?
I agree with most of your points, except that part II shows just how cold Vito could be. Michael is cold but to quote another Pacino character “ he never screwed anyone who didn’t have it coming to them”.
4:15 because that is not the way his father taught him. You make a reasonable offer first, then you make the offer they cannot refuse. This shows the rest of the world you are not just a blood thirsty thug but a reasonable man who can be dealt with reasonably but who will not take a refusal lying down.
It's no small thing that he beat fredo in public. Fredo is made Man and captain, a Jewish mafia Associate is not. that is a massive difference and a death sentence end and of itself.
I would also add Fredo was the son of Don Vito Corleone meaning Fredo was the son of a king, a prince and as we learned in John Wick if you're hit a prince and live to tell it you better have a damn good reason for doing it.
Yeah the producers didn't want him in the role until they saw him in the hit on Sollozzo, then they were "all right then". Once you have seen Pacino in action, and you know he can turn that shit on at will, you experience him being still and silent very differently. Until you have seen that, you might just think of him as a quiet guy
@Dzon Brodi I agree. And it is true in real life that it is the quiet ones who display more stoicism in their dealings with people that can be more dangerous than short fuses like Sonny or Moe Green. You don't know where you stand with such people precisely, and that can be very dangerous if they're given a powerful leadership position as Vito Corleone gave his son Michael.
@@dzonbrodi514 Yes, except it wasn't the producers, but the studio execs -- from Robert Evans on up to the CEO of Gulf + Western (Paramount's owner) -- who didn't want Pacino. They, understandably, wanted a big name to help sell the movie. Coppola knew that Pacino was his guy, though, and thankfully he and Al Ruddy fought for him and won. This is covered in the miniseries The Offer that came out last year. Really fun watch for any Godfather fan.
A great analysis. I read the book in 1971, and of course I have seen the movie multiple times. The more I learn about and think about the movie, the more I am persuaded that it is the best movie I have ever seen.
Can you believe there are people who say it’s overrated? They obviously never really watched it. Definitely not a movie you can only watch once. I’ve seen it like 50+ times and still learn something new each time.
I always liked the part of the scene where Mike talks about Moe "straightening out " Fredo. And, Moe stops his tirade, and with a slightly worried look on his face, straightens his tie, and sits back down. Realizing, he may have crossed a line with that action.
@@CineRanter The more I think about it, I really think you know more about the Godfather story than Puzo and Coppola. They would be amazed by these videos, absolutely certain of it. I warked in the feature film industry for about a decade - 20+ features. Big name ones. Worked on 5 of Robin Wiliams and he was great friends with Francis. One day while working on Fathers Day, we were filming at Rubicon restaurant in San Francisco, which was co-owned by Robin and Francis. Got to meet Coppola, shook his hand and made him an esperesso - I was Craft Services. Not the name you see in the credits, but the unnamed assistant, who usually did all the work and got all the credit from the cast and crew but not at the end of the film. So be it - got paid for it though. 😁 Anyhow, just wanted you to know, theres someone out there who really appreciates film making, and also loves continuity, and the elements that go into the story and backstory, which you do so well. Your efforts are not unnoticed. YOU should be working in the writers rooms of Hollywood. Always look forward to your insight & brilliant breakdowns. Interesting observations every time. Tip of the hat 🫡
You just gave me new reasons to watch the movie again. Michael had his mind made up about moe you can tell when he told Johnny that moe will sell his share of the casino before the meeting started. And I think Michael knew moe was gonna fight instead of name a price especially since Michael knew moe was dealing with Barzini.
I believe Michael had the meeting with Moe Greene to find out which family would ally with Greene if he was proposed an unwanted buyout. The Barzini family would be another obstacle for the Corleone's and would further escalate hostilities in New York. Michael also took the abuse of his brother Fredo by Greene personally. If Michael was there exclusively there for business, Michael would have never brought up the slapping of his brother around in public. There was a detectable feeling of family embarrassment and shame when Michael was told by Greene that Fredo was "banging cocktail waitresses two at a time." Voicing that out loud was disrespect. All of this gave Michael a clear indication that he could never deal with Greene, and had to kill him.
Whoever cast the actors in the Godfather trilogy did a fabulous job. For instance, casting Alex Rocco as Moe Green was genius....he was great in every role he was in.
You could say that Alex Rocco brought good credentials to the role. Prior to taking up acting and converting to the Bahá'í Faith, he had some involvement with the organized crime, for which he did jail time. I read somewhere that Joe Bonanno invited Mr. Rocco to his 80th birthday party - and he went (I suppose "for old time's sake", as Salvatore Tessio would say).
This conversation let Michael know for sure that Moe, Barzini, and every head of the other five families were all in together to tie out the Corleones. Michael already knew from his father that Barzini was the mastermind with Solazzo and MClusky. But now he had a license to clean house and take over all of it, all at once. This was a swing for the fences move by the Corleone family.
Your theory is spot on IMHO. The "long game" is the norm in the gangster world, "keep your enemy closest", etc. Pretending to look for opportunities to do business with said enemy, whilst using that same excuse to transfer the "fault" on them, and use that to justify killing them. It's all an elaborate "weird diplomacy" thing. A bit like the official justice system uses, where as long as you can twist the law to say what you want it to say, you can commit all sorts of disreputable actions with total impunity. The Godfather is a masterpiece on so many level. Great study of the human genre too.
READ. READ READ. THE BOOK. WOW. INDEBT. FILLS. IN EVERYTHING. HOW PAULIE GATTO. GOT INVOLVED AND MANY OTHERS. CHECK OUT OTHER BOOKS. G.F. (CALLED. THE FAMILY. THERES SO MANY. AND EASY TO READ. READ READ
Nah. As others have pointed out, Solozzo tried to kill Vito because he knew Sonny as the underboss would take over and Sonny was interested in the deal. And if Michael had wanted to kill Moe Greene all along he wouldn’t need a justification. Michael doesn’t get permission from the Commission, HE WIPED OUT THE COMMISSION. He came to Vegas to make a deal, but Moe Greene revealed he was making deals with Barzini. That’s what got Greene killed, aligning himself with Barzini.
I really appreciate hearing analyses of The Godfather movies, I totally love the films, but I can never really understand what the plotting and scheming is about - so really appreciate the insight 🤗
I have always felt that there were multiple layers to this scene. 1) Greene was moving Fredo's loyalties away from the family, which could not be tolerated. 2) Greene was abusive to Fredo. 3) The casino is losing money. 4) Michael's buy-in will come with Greene selling out. 5) Greene would not be completely out, but Michael would be directly in. 7) Michael perceived Greene as allied with his enemies and wished to investigate. Obviously, Michael finds all of these things to be true, given that Fredo side with Greene against Michael. I believe that the offer was legitimate, and it would have merely proved Greene to be a slimy grifter and troublemaker but not an enemy. Instead by visibly abusing Fredo, being defended in turn by Fredo, and rejecting Michael's offer with calumnies and vitriol, he confirms his allegiance and earns a bullet in the eye.
Vito intimated in the meeting with the families "when have I ever refused an accommodation " this suggest he had shared the judges and politicians before but he drew the line at drugs. An often overlooked aspect is the Turk referring to the Don as "slipping" This can be assumed is the attitude of Tataglia and Bazzini. They believed it was time for Vito to go and with Tessio in thier back pocket they assumed they could control Sonny or at some point get rid of him. But they never saw Michael coming that's were they fucked up. Michael was the unintended consequence the unforseen event that could not be predicted.
I read the book and have seen the movies many times and I found this perspective to be fascinating. I agree with all of this and it makes the story deeper and more enjoyable.
First thing you got wrong was saying Michael was a weak Don. They summised Michael couldn’t step into his Fathers Shoes. In real life Meyer and Frank never had a fall out, both them two and Charlie kept paying off Bennys debts until it was proven how much Virginia Hill banked abroad.
How about the diner scene, and how as Michael is sitting after coming back from the bathroom with the gun, the train is heard, getting louder and louder and louder and it is coming and it is inevitable, there is no stopping it. The perfect background noises for Michael's situation. Watch Pacino's eyes and expression. He is still hesitant until the moment his mind comes into full focus and he is all in. He is there it is unavoidable, he is committed and cannot stop now. It is one of the best written and filmed scenes in all of movie history.
@@shaunokeefe7162 How about the scene after Michael saves Vito at the hospital. He is sitting in with Sonny, tom, Clemenza and Tessio, and is listening and taking it all in. When he speaks up in that deliberate determined voice we see him sitting in the chair, legs crossed, calm and cold in his speaking. He is watching Sonny reacting wildly, and he is seeing tom react with extreme caution and knows the middle ground of those reactions are the right course of action. he has military experience from WWII and uses his knowledge of tactics o make plans on how to get the gun there. He is suggesting and questioning if Clemenza can get it there, which makes Clemenza only more likely to do it to prove he is trustworthy with the act. And when Michael is laughed at for saying he will kill the two enemies, the look on his face is intense and only Tom sees how determined and brilliant Michael is. That is the moment he becomes the heir and the Godfather. The killings at the diner are only the last act he needs to prove his worth to the rest of them. And Michael sees his act to protect his father and family, not for revenge. Because it really was business, not personal. Now, killing Carmine, that was personal.
No matter how many times you watch it. It is one of the great movie scenes of all time .he hesitates, and is he going to do the deed, or maybe he isn't going to go through with it?
I think Michael wanted to kill Moe Green anyway. There’s an exchange in the novel where after the meeting with Moe,Michael asks Ralph Neri if he got a good look at Moe Green. I always thought that the meeting was a way Neri could get a good look at Moe Green because Michael was pissed at Moe Green for slapping Fredo around in public.
If Michael had already made up his mind about killing Moe Greene he would have just blindsided him without prior talks. Michael wanted to analyse Moe's reaction first. The possible outcomes were: - What actually happened: Moe is a hothead and immediately spills the beans about inner circle information regarding the power status of the Mafia families, in order to intimidate Michael. He even admits he talked to Barzini. The only possible source of this info is Barzini anyway, who used it so he could bolster Moe's morale in case he has to face off against Michael... but of course he certainly did not tell him to TELL Michael to his face he knows any of this, because it ultimately reveals the source (Barzini). - Moe is smart and barely shows any reaction, except feigned indignation over Michael's distrust against a loyal ally, which could have sowed doubt in Michael's head. Michael avoided this specific scenario of a calm and collected reaction by Moe, because it was Michael who paid cocktail waitresses to fuck Fredo... two at a time! He knew hothead Moe would slap his idiot brother around for that. - Moe is innocent. In summary Michael tried to reveal a possible connection to whoever was behind the attacks against his family without knowing, if his tactics would reveal anything.
I think Moe’s admission that the other families are approaching him with a deal is the big detail Michael was fishing for. He needs to know how broad of a net he has to cast with his kill-spree, and Moe’s statement reveals that all of the families are lined up against him and aggressively infringing on Corleone interests, justifying Michael’s eventual scorched earth retaliation. Moe is killed as well, in the end, for a litany of reasons: skimming money from the casino, disrespecting Fredo, but worst of all is taking sides against the family by entertaining deals from the other families.
I’ve watched the first movie many times, and this is the First time i’ve ever thought of that meeting with Moe as being a “set up”. However, it does explain very well just why Michael is so incredibly calm during the entire meeting and always polite, even when Moe is yelling at him.
@@tjschakow When Moe Green was explaining why he hit Fredo he said Fredo was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time and that the players couldn't get a drink at the tables. Before Moe Green leaves after having been insulted by the offer to sell the Casino he tells Michael Corleone that he made his bones when (Michael) was going out with cheerleaders.
Combination of Barzini encroaching, Sonny speaking out of turn and letting Solotzo know what he was thinking which allowed Solotzo to think if he killed the Don he could handle Sonny. Sonny was a loose cannon. Corleone family was bankrolling Moe it’s pretty clear Moe was skimming which is a death sentence. If it’s Corleone money. Greene further compounds his predicament by doing what Sonny did . Greene let Mike know what he was thinking.and revealed his utter disloyalty to the Corleone by negotiating with their enemies, Barzini. Either way Mike was there to get the info that he needed to remove Greene. Molinaris needed to be placated. Stealing from the Corleone was enough.
It really puts that famous line, "an offer he can't refuse," into greater context given that's what Vito does that prompts the hit on him, refuse an offer he shouldn't have. I had never connected that before.
I don't know how obvious this is, but I haven't seen anyone else touch on it before: When Michael tells Fredo to get rid of the band and the girls, it's because he sees through Greene, knowing the girls are there to caress and soften up Mike, and the band to charm him even more.
Well Fredo is dim-witted so Green probably recommended that Fredo do it but Michael could see through all of that! He was there for business only and no games so he didn't want women or a band!
Here's a theory : Speculation that insisted on further speculation. These movies were in theaters to see once or twice not recorded to be the scutinized over in and over. Fast moving semi plausible dialogue and storyline . Bang bang shoot em up close curtain .. They had your money at the door. People weren't expected to go over and over the details. Even real life crime bosses aren't studied that closely.
This theory is bunk. Micheal didn't need any additional business rationale for killing Mo Green. Your argument is that if he just killed him without a 'legitimate reason' then the other 5 families would move against him. But Micheal simultaneously killed the other heads of the 5 families. There is/would be no one left to move against him. Michael killed Green first and foremost to take over his casino but also because he was disrespecting Fredo (and him by extension). Had he not disrespected Fedo Michael may have just forced him out (made him and offer he couldn't refuse). The reason why his sit down with Mo Green is important is because during it Mo reveals that he was already in cahoots with Barzini. That confirms to Michael that Mo is no longer his partner but working with his enemies and that he should die when everyone else dies.
I think you forget the plotline which is Barzini was using the Tattaglias and Sollozzo in order to actually acquire the Corleone family territory and operation. That's the whole idea of The Puppetmaster pulling the strings and setting up the table. Vito makes the comment to Robert Duvall in the car after the meeting that the Tattaglias could never have afforded to off Sonny. It was Barzini doing it all the time funding and supporting Sollozzo behind the scenes to create the turmoil and the war.
Mario Puzo wrote The Godfather and also assisted in screen writing. If you read the novel, there are hidden asides. My favorite lines in the novel are the first and last paragraph. America Bounosera sat on bench outside the criminal court seeking justice for what those men did to his daughter. He would find no justice there… (This line deliberately calls a man America. It s/b Americo) The last line….Kay saw the door close. She knew the truth about Carlo Ritzi, and all she could for Michael was pray. If you take Puzo’s first two words and the last word in the novel, it translates to GOOD NIGHT AMERICA PRAY. The novel is full of these hidden meanings. It is the novel The Godfather that is a masterpiece.
I thought Michael talked to Moe Green so he could find out that it was in fact Barzinni as the one on the board who wanted to destroy the Corleone family completely.
In the novels they already knew that. Don Corleone explains to Hagen right after the peace talks that "a pezzonovatti" like Tataglia would have never caught Santino, therefore he knew it had to be Barzini (plus other information that the Don doesn't particularly care to mention).
Good interesting analysis , personally i think you may need to put a bit more weight onto the Drugs aspect of the deal which was far more significant to Vitos position as he knew it would be his family that would have most to lose with that shift - also the dynamic between Michaels brother and Greene is underplayed in my opinion ;-)
4:57 Just a correction. The Molinari Family out of San Francisco wasn't "backing" Moe Greene but protecting Fredo as a service to the Corleone Family by their guarantee of retribution if anything happened to him. This is because the Corleone's didn't have any assets in the area but a San Francisco Family was close enough to Vegas to exert infuence. Also, at 2:21 when you say the killing of the 5 Families I still prefer the book version where Tataglia and Barzini were the only ones killed, although it wouldn't have been as legendary onscreen, even when Rocco Lampone's secret _regime_ swooped in to the former Corleone territories to reclaim their numbers and bookie joints. In the movie there was never a payoff to revealing Lampone's status through Hagen's questioning Michael.
I think your theory is missing a very important fact. As you stated, Micheal planned all along to kill the heads of the 5 families so those families would be too weak to start a war. As far as the Molinari family, I don't think they would have started a war after Micheal wiped out his East coast competition.
Michel left one war only to find himself involved in another war. Both wars involved killing. Michel intended to "win" this second war, and at the same time keep his promise to Kaye that the family would be completely "legitimate" in five years. His plan was to secure a foothold in Vegas where gambling is legitimate, then end the war in New York by killing the heads of the opposing families, closing up shop in New York, and concentrating on building his "legitimate" empire in Vegas. His offer to Greene , I believe, was a genuine one, but when he learned {or wanted confirmation} that Greene was negotiating with Barzinni, Green was then added to his hit list. He did say to Fredo, "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse".
One thing i don`t get is, if Vito dies, the Corleones losses the political connections and half of thier power (as Hagen explained to Sonny), so, what kind of deal would Sonny offer to the Turk? he hasn`t his father political connections. In the novel, even Michael had to work hard to regain that political power in order to green light the 5 families hits.
Reviewing the exact dialog Michael used with Moe Greene suggests he was attempting to press Greene into losing his temper and revealing Greene's negotiations with Barzini. Like an excellent lawyer, Michael went into the meeting with the information Greene was choosing sides. Note that he did not respond to Greene's suggestion the Corleone family didn't have that kind of power now and Michael failed to engage in an argument. He told Greene his leadership was "unlucky." Since casino's create the illusion of a fair game, the truth is the house always has the odds in their favor. There is no lucky or unlucky aspect to what the casino's offer. But using that term was a clear cut trigger to Greene, and he few off the handle. He showed his tell and confirmed what Michael knew. Now go to Godfather II, and the conversation between Hyman Roth and Michael Corleone. Roth made it clear Moe Greene was a hot head and his murder supported Greene's temper and rash behavior. This surely underscores Greene's response to Michael as something which could be planned for. It also puts Greene in a position to either begin a friendly negotiation with the Corleone's, or push back. And because of his evidently well known rash behavior, manipulating him into revealing his plans was the smarter Michael playing Greene. When Michael was not forthcoming with the two million dollars to Roth, it could be seen as the same maneuver Michael made with Greene. It angered Roth, and he displayed his outrage at Moe Greene's death still to that day. Roth's assurance he didn't ask any questions about who was behind Greene's assassination was weak, but his visceral reaction told the truth. He wanted vengeance for Moe Greene's death and he knew Michael was behind it. Because the heads of four of the five families were assassinated, and the Corleone family was the only one to retain their head. And since Roth was partners with Vito Corleone in the olive oil business for decades, he surely would see through any ruse to disguise who was behind Greene's death. One last point. Killing, or attempting to kill Vito Corleone would forever ruin any type of alliance between Sollozzo regardless of how much Sonny might have been in favor of the massive profits from drugs. The killing of Don Vito was to weaken the Corleone family and the four other families under the obscured guidance of Barzini would have eventually ended the Corleone regime. The lion share of it would belong to Barzini, The mistake of Sollozzo and Barzini along with Phillip Tallaglia was underestimating Michael's acumen. Not any fantasy about Sonny getting over his father's death and joining the murderers of his father in business. But the reasonable aspect you proffer ignores the fact all of the four families must have been in agreement to kill Don Vito. Thus the action by the Corleone's was always about revenging and protecting their domain. And if you plan on killing all the heads of your enemies, their approval of Moe Greene's killing is moot. Because, as Hyman Roth once said about Frankie Fiveangels, "He's small potatoes." So was Moe Greene. Not justification needed. I'm sorry Mr. CineRanter, but I am not in agreement with your position.
I dunno if he was based on Siegel but Lansky saved his ass so many times and there is only so much the commission, even Luciano, even his buddy Lansky would take. He was killed for 2 main reasons, stealing from the mob as confirmed by Lansky through Virginia Hill and Siegel kept claiming to be boss of LA, for which he had no authority.
This scene always bumps me. When Moe says the line "I talked to Barzini", his lips don't really match what he sounds like. I wonder if it was dubbed later or something.
Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
Michael, as the new head of the Corleone family, was not weak or afraid of taking on the other families because he still had the full family's soldiers. He wanted to lull the other families into a complacency to where they'd get careless in their dealings with Michael. Once they let down their guard, he was then able to set up the other bosses to get whacked. Same with Moe Greene, who got careless because he thought the Corleone family was by the boards and he was partnered up with Barzini. Remember that after the big national meeting at the Waldorf (??) Hotel, Vito was talking to Michael and told him he had been thinking about Tataglia being the cause of his troubles, but at the meeting he listened to Barzini's ramblings and then realized it was really Barzini all the time. So while Michael was innocently at the church with his god child getting baptized, he had also set into motion the "whack-a-thon" that permanently solved his problems with the other bosses.
Note that Michael did not stand up when greeting Moe. That's a sign of disrespect.
You don't buy me out. I buy *you* out.
I didn’t like Moe’s casino.
The service was terrible.
I couldn’t get a drink at my table. The cocktail waitresses were nowhere to be found for some reason.
I'm gonna go see Moe, and make him an offer.
Forget about it.
😂
I thought I heard you say "I'm good Spider"
If I'm not getting a drink every 20 minutes I ain't gambling.
@@Buford_T_Justice1 ...🤣🤣🤣
The reason for the hit on Vito was not retaliation for turning down Solozzo. It was a result of Sonny displaying an interest in making a deal if he were in charge of the family. I thought this was pretty clearly established in the movie both from Solozzo's reaction to Sonnys comments in the meeting and by Vito's reaction after the meeting.
Aye. The book pretty much states this.
Reason might be the wrong word. How about justification? It's how the hit could be justified to the other families.
@@voodoochild1975az Justification is irrelevant to taking out a mob boss. There needs to be a reason. And even in that case you are treading on very treacherous turf. In any case, we know from the movie and the book that it was Solozo that carried out the attempt on Vito (with Barzini either backing the move or giving subtle permission). These people are businessmen. Wars are bad for business unless they can be ended quickly and there is a profitable objective behind it (e.g., remove the old man and cut a deal with Sonny). You take out the old man because of a bruised ego and the war is a battle of attrition with lots of blood shed and money lost.
which is why I can never understand Solozzo saying 'you can't do business with sonny', he's a 'hothead' in the restaurant slaying scene. surely being able to do business with Sonny is the whole point.
@@intelligencelimited2708 Probably a combination of Solozzo admitting a misjudgment along with trying to butter up Michael by portraying him as the sensible one in the family. He correctly anticipated how Sonny would react initially, but also keep in mind the plan was for Vito to be dead where he would, in theory, negotiate peace with Sonny from a more favorable position.
The Turk was not emboldened by his partnership with the Tattaglia family. He was emboldened by Sonny shooting off his mouth being eager for the deal.
He was also good with a knife
@@CollaredConsulting The Turk also knew where to lay his hands on a good piece of fish.
This theory perfectly explains why such a meeting to discuss a buyout was done so publicly. The more people that were present at Michael's proposal the more all the players would hear Moe's outright rejection. Hell, even Johnny Fontane was present at the meeting. I always wondered why Michael would make such a bold proposal so openly instead of behind closed doors and this channel answered it. Thank you!
Due to the extensive mentorship of Vito Corleone,Micheal knew about old enemies as well as the new and potential enemies .He also knew that when a adversary sees you in a weakened state just like the position the Corleone family was in at the time it brings out all the sharks! Any and everyone that hated or disliked you will allow themselves to be known because they no longer fear retaliation from you! That’s how Micheal was able to kill so many enemies at once due to their hatred and arrogance it blinded them. Not once did they think they were being led into a trap!!!! A fool always thinks they’re smart through their own eyes! Moe Green heard about the losses the Corleone family had taken.He felt they were finished! He would have never put hands on Fredo if Vito was alive,that was also his reasoning behind him disrespecting Fredo and Micheal every chance he got. Greene knew he had Hyman Roth as well as the heads of the other families as allies. He no longer perceived the Corleone family as a threat! How wrong he and the others were.They all paid a hefty price for their stupidity with their lives.
Vito was alive when Moe slapped Fredo around in public. But the Godfather was sick and Michael was now in charge. So Moe saw this as weakness and that embolden him to slap Fredo.
As soon as Michael mentioned Moe humiliating Fredo in public Moe knew he made a grave mistake. He probably didn’t think this news would get all the way back to New York because he assumed the witnesses to this were loyal to him, obviously Fredo didn’t say anything, but at that moment he found out Michael had eyes everywhere. That’s why he blew up, he couldn’t make deals with all the families, he had to hope Barzini would protect him.
I mean, he did TALK to Barzini.
@@KtotheG got me dead hahaha
Yeah. He was trying to bluster his way past it, but the admission sealed his fate.
I think it's was as simple as Moe thought he was untouchable. He overestimated his worth to Barzini and, more importantly, Roth.
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas, unless you are a Corleone.
The plot of the Godfather and Godfather II is a string of refusals, beginning with Vito's refusal to murder the men who assaulted the undertaker's daughter, then Woltz's refusal to give Johnny Fontaine a part in a movie, and ending with Michael's refusal to leave a briefcase of cash with Hyman Roth in Cuba (not to mention Kay's refusal to have another one of Michael's children). I guess the lesson is that if you refuse someone in the criminal world you better be sure you have power over them -- or at least have a really, really good reason.
Michael gave Hyman the money. and promptly lost it.
@@rondaallen7211 he didnt lose the money
@@incogneto2834 really? so it didn't stay in Cuba?
@@rondaallen7211😆Fidel took it
Deep take
Moe Green is based on two people. Buggy Siegel and Moe Dalitz. The Desert Inn was the mob’s first venture into casino gambling before they opened Vegas. Bugsy is famous for his part and his demise, but Moe Dalitz is the actual person. If you watch the movie, you will see a building that is named The Desert Inn in Las Vegas. That’s the wink and the nod to Dalitz.
Moe Sedway and Gus Greenbaum. they were Lansky lieutenants who took over the Flamingo after Siegel died and almost instantly turned it into a huge success. Sedway died of cancer in 1952 and Greenbaum tried to retire after selling the Flamingo in 1955 but Lansky made him take over the Riviera but he developed a drug habit and started skimming profits and he was murdered in 1959.
If I don't watch the movie will I still see it?
@@Paul-vf2wland Moe Dalitz became Mr Las Vegas🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️
Cleveland had more money coming from unions. gambling, drugs
@@Paul-vf2wlGreenbaum was an associate of the Chicago Outfit. He answered to Accardo.
I have watched the Godfather series for years and I always learn something new. The plots and characters are complex and intriguing. Truly a work of cinematic art.
@ChubbyAmadeusFan
I couldn't agree with you more. I went to the movies in 1972 to see the first Godfather. I was I'm my mid twenty's then. I am in my 70s now, and every time the Godfather comes on AMC for their marathon week of showing all 3, I never miss it. So I've technically been watching the Godfather movies all of them for 51 years now, and I, too, always find something new I missed in over 50 years😂. It never gets old or uninteresting to me either 🙌🏼. I read the book first. I'm sure you know the movie is very similar but not true to the book. However, the movie versions were awesome.
💯
One other thing I think is worth pointing out is it’s explicitly stated that Moe physically assaulted Fredo in public. Since Fredo is the son of a Don at least and maybe even a Made member of the Corleone family, the family would’ve had justification to kill Greene without reprisal, at least in real life. Hell you could even say they’d be honor bound to do so, which means not doing so plays right in to Michael’s ultimate plan to appear weak and aloof.
He was banging cocktail waitresses 2 at a time
Imagine if you or I beat up the brother of a Mafia boss in public. The mafia boss of the most powerful Mafia family in New York for that matter. We would either kiss their feet out of gratitude ofr not killing us, or we would get prepared for war if we could, or we would cooperate with the FBI, turn state evidence and enter the Witness Protection Program.
@ Poison oak
Well maybe that's why Moe brazenly smacked him around.....
"""The Corleone family has """ lost it's muscle 💪"''"
Huge Sun Zhu mistake..
I New he was Dead when I saw that as a kid.. yikes 😬😳😳😱
I think in the book Fredo is somehow a Capo
You realize this shit isn’t real, right?
It's amazing how this film is still loved and adored by many
It is (along with GFII) the greatest movie and sequel) ever made! The best recreation of the 40s, 50s and 60s sets ever!
The story is amazing and spellbinding!
It’s not amazing, it’s entirely appropriate that one of the best films ever made is still revered and always will be!
@@dougm659
To us maybe.
10 years ago, I asked her 20 something if he ever saw the godfather. His response was “I tried, but it’s just so boring”. Knowing that the Godfather is far from boring I had to ask myself what’s wrong with this guy. I realized that without dinosaurs or special effects he couldn’t follow.
That was 10 years ago.
Wanna stress out a bunch of thirty year olds? Put on the godfather.
So many nuances of amazing film making but it is so LONGGGGGGG. I love it but for me at least, it an every 3 or 4 years movie.
@@mattm7798
I know. All that dialogue.
No dinosaurs or superheroes to keep it interesting.
So many words.
How could a film with no special effects be so celebrated.
One car explosion. The fire was nice but it was over so fast.
All storyline? That’s so boomer.
It definitely takes a few years between viewings.
It’s not easy staying focused on a movie that’s soooo long.
After a while it could affect the mental.
I had a cousin that watched part one and two BACK TO BACK!
Let’s just say that he’s not the same guy I knew growing up.
03:02 - HAHAHA that never fails to make me laugh hysterically
Why, what exactly is it that is hysterical?
Because if you rewatch the movie, the dialogue: “i talked to Bazini” is said by the actor with such a different tone of voice that is seems like a different person altogether.
Yess!!! Thank you for noticing and pointing that out too LMFAO yeah it sounds like James Earl Jones/Darth Vader said that line in the movie it's always caught me off guard/made me laugh lol happy that there are others who noticed that lol
also of note...Fredo's instantly coming to the defense of Moe Greene slapping him around revealed he had learned nothing about taking side's against the family. His days became numbered as well after that exchange. A POWERFUL scene all around.
I absolutely agree. I still adore this movie series simply because it is so complex and truly reflects the wonderful partnership Coppola and the author had when they worked together on the screenplay.
To be fair, it is in this scene that Michael tells Fredo: "You're my older brother, and I love you. But never take sides -- with anyone -- against the family again. Ever." His days were not "numbered." Michael never would have killed Fredo if Fredo hadn't demonstrated that his resentment of Michael would lead to him putting the lives of Michael AND HIS WIFE AND KIDS in jeopardy, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
Well said. Fredo clearly had no deep loyalty to the family.
“It was Barzini all along.” You are 100% correct on that. Sollozzo legitimately wanted Vito to accept the offer, and Tataglia also wanted the deal as it would allow them to operate a nationwide drug cartel and get rich. Vito’s political connections were key to that. But Barzini was playing his own game from the very start because he knew Vito would refuse it. However he secretly backed Sollozzo and Tataglia for the very reason you state as it set up a legitimate way for him to take out Vito who was his main adversary, and the only remaining family stronger than his.
Where Barzini fumbles is that he doesn’t judge the younger Corleone’s correctly. Most importantly he misjudged Michael completely. First, Mike removing Sollozzo was an essential stroke. It eliminated the justification to finish the job on Vito, which kept the political influence of the family, and half of their power intact. Even though he was in a hospital bed, Vito’s survival is what allows Sonny to keep fighting the war instead of being forced to give in. Second, he foolishly thinks Vito giving in to all demands at the meeting meant he had won, when really Vito won. Sure Vito came out looking weak, and had to give into the deal he refused at the start. But he saved the family because he knew with Sonny gone, that the only one who had the strength and ability to keep the family on top was Mike, and he could not bring Mike home, clear his name and move his political connections behind Mike if the war kept going. Barzini had the Corleone’s on the ropes and failed to finish the job, though he did try as in the book it mentions that the attempt on Mike in Sicily happened after the peace deal in NYC.
Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
Of course it was Barzini all along. How does Sollozzo benefit if Vito is killed? Vito has the political contacts, not Sonny. Barzini must have told Sollozzo to kill Vito.
Vito's mistake was sending Luca Brazi out to investigate. If he hadn't Luca wouldn't have been killed and then Sollozzo couldn't come after Vito. Sollozzo couldn't come after Vito until Luca was out of the way.
@@michaelcolfin8464 Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
@@RobertIsraelKabakoff The actual legal jargon is the Uniform Commercial Code, or U.C.C., which has been adopted in every country and codified in each state statutes. I am a lawyer in Colorado and the Colorado Revised Statutes codified the U.C.C. in Title 4. The legal citation in each state will vary, but, trust me, every legal case, whether civil or criminal involves contracts. If you are charged criminally, it just means that you were notified of the penalties associated with your conduct and you accepted the terms and conditions, including prison if you commit the act and found guilty, or accept a plea bargain. Everything is just business and contracts, they just do not explain it in law schools.
About the attempt on Mike's life, the book states that the Don Corleone isn't sure if it was set up before or after the peace deal - which is one of the reasons why Mike's comeback is delayed for months: Vito is extra careful about Barzini's taking another shot at Mike.
The book makes clear Michael’s efforts to buy Greene out were more sincere than what the movie shows. Mike went the extra mile. He did not get angry with Moe.
Yes, remember that Moe (real life Bugsy) was a Jew among Sicilians and like Hyman Roth (real life Meyer Lansky) and they were very close.
Roth (Lansky) was very upset about the Moe (Bugsy) execution because they came up together with Charlie (Lucky) Luciano in real life.
I don’t know which character (if any) represents Luciano in the series. Luciano was deported back to Italy in real life but is said to have run the mob from there.
I find it interesting that (for the sake of time) the Al Capone part of the book was also left out of the movie.
According to the book, when Micheal is back in New York and, in a meeting, is informed about Greene's refusal to sell at any price, he simply shrugs. The others in the room are shocked, but Tessio "leans back in his chair," thinking "Moe Greene is a dead man."
@@PR-BEACHBOY Moe wasn't Bugsy
He cuts a deal with Greene and gives him the money and then Greene is assassinated by some unknown assailant that Michael claims to not know and the money disappears, thus it looks like Michael bought out green in a clean deal and someone other than Michael wacked him to steal the money. Alas, Micheal is off the hook for Greene’s murder. Happened all the time in Afghanistan. afghan business and afghan politics were handled the same way kill or be killed and blame the Taliban. He won the bid but he paid the price. An afghan politician and general contractor’s response to the murder of the 2 pakistani’s that outbid him on a road project in Kandahar province. Apparently they were killed by the Taliban.
It was the 2 black guys, who killed Green. I mean, who else???
@@Big_Al_the_Greek Oh, those two.
most people hate when i say this = it was a good fictional book and it wasn't based on a true story but a few of the characters were drawn from real life personas nothing more nothing less
Afghanistan is not ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth for nothing.
@@sonnysantana5454 sure bro. Keep telling yourself that.
the scene is so emotional, dramatic and good that I didn't even realize I never thought about the mob and tactical point of view of the scene
Michael being furious over Fredo getting slapped around overshadows the whole scene
I think the most critical fact in discerning Michael's state of mind going into the meeting was the fact that Moe slapped Fredo around in public and Michael knew it. As a Jew, Moe wasn't even a made guy. For a Jewish associate to put hands on the son of a Don (he was supposed to be mentoring) broke all the rules of the mafia. It was a HUGE sign of disrespect to the Corleone family. That alone warranted a death sentence for Moe. Notice how Michael raised that issue at the perfect time when Moe was talking tough. It immediately put Moe on the defensive. When Moe replied that he had to "straighten out" Fredo Michael's reply and look was deadly. "You straightened my brother out?" Right there was the death sentence for Moe. I think going into the meeting Michael knew Moe wouldn't sell. But he gave Moe a chance to bury himself and Moe jumped right in. If a deal had been reached or discussed Michael would not have raised the issue of Moe slapping Fredo around. When Michael did raise it he already knew he would order Moe's killing.
Was the Corleones anti semmittes?
@urkersen5246 Not at all. Don Vito had a good relationship with Hyman Roth. And the real Italian mob had close relations with Jewish mobsters like Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Seigel. A lot of folks don't know that the infamous mafia hit squad "Murder Inc." had several Jewish hitmen on the payroll.
@@urkersen5246 Of course. And racists, sexist, bigots too. That's just the way the majority of the country was at that time. Almost alf the country is still like this today. even
Was this why Moe made a point of telling Michael that he had "made my bones" when Michael was still a child? To say that even though he was Jewish he was an equal "made man" member?
Moe's whole attitude shows that he had absolutely no understanding of Sicilian family values
@Sciencegrinds I think you're right. Moe was projecting toughness amid his insecurity as a Jewish gangster in a sea of Italians/Sicilians. The way he emphasized that he "talked" to Barzini was a further attempt to bolster his street cred. He thought named dropping Barzini would protect him.
It makes sense. Michael even told Moe to think about a price, meaning Moe had the opportunity to name his own price and get out, but he turned Michale down flat. After refusing Michael’s generous offer, Moe was fair game.
Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
@@robertperry4439 The earliest known law codes are the Codes of Ur-Nammu (2100-2050 BCE) which deal with fines and punishments for bodily harm. They predate the Code of Hammurabi (1792-1750) and the closest those 282 edicts come to contract law are those that refer to construction. One could go with Plato's last Dialogue 'The Laws' (350 BCE) but it only recognized basic categories for cancelling agreements. How about the Xi Zhou Dynasty (11-10 BCE)? Oops, they had mostly government regulations and provisions for arbitration. Rome? The Twelve Tables (449 BCE) to the Corpus Juris Civilis (529 AD) form the basis there. Torts and punishment for not fulfilling contracts. Back to China with the 'Tang Lu' (681-907 AD) but it doesn't distinguish between criminal, civil, and contract law and mostly dealt with property disputes.
Hmmm... none of these deal with international contract law... likely because there were no nations. Kingdoms, empires, tribes, etcetera, but no nations. And none are 5000 years old. And none say "You must accept or negotiate if offered money". The only good thing about your statement is that I can tender you a penny to stop talking out of your ass.
Just the same as Don Vito’s refusal made him open to assassination!
@@PR-BEACHBOY Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
@@robertperry4439 Exactly, so Michael Coreleone was legally obligated and authorized to have Moe Greene Shot right in the eyeball, under international contract law established 5000 years ago. :D
Michael knew well and good the Moe Green wouldn't sell it out. You're 100% correct. It was just a ruse to get justification to take him out. They didn't come out and say it in the movie, but was easily deduced.
It all goes back to the beginning of the film when Michael explains to Kay what "an offer he can't refuse" means. Either the subject accepts, or we simply take it from him. But either way, we are getting what we want. As a mob associate, Bugsy (Moe) should have known that's what was happening. Had he named a price, it's most likely the Corleones would have met it and he would have walked away with a lot of money. Ironically, this is the same kind of thing that happened to Hoffa (played by Pacino) in Irishman.
I don't think there's any way Greene survives. The insult of how the brother (older one at that) of the new Godfather is physically, AND PUBLICALLY, abused was a capital offense. Had Greene come back with a number, Michael would have low balled it and the result would've been the same.
@@Ignats75 .... Entirely possible. That was good leverage Michael had using his brother
Exactly, Moe being an associate knew hot they worked and rolled and knew that one YOU DON'T EVER RAISE YOUR HAND TO A MOB PERSON ESPECIALLY ONE THAT IS SON OF A DON. Two, He took money from the Corleones for his businesses and at the very least he should have given the offer to buy him out a listen and even a counter offer. But he truly thought that the Corleones where done and finished and so he didn't have to respect them.
@@Ignats75 One character absent from the first movie was Roth, hard to gauge Michael's awareness of their relationship until Roth metions it, trying to use it as leverage, in the second one.
@@chizorama Still. Cardinal rule. NEVER, i mean NEVER does an unmade man physically touch a made man or a made man's family. That by itself is a capital offense. The lack of respect for the "office" of the Godfather is another capital crime in that culture. Nope, Moe was deadman walking.
I never even noticed this until just now. During Moe Greene's rampage, Fredo LITERALLY has turned his back on Michael. For Michael, this would be an unforgivable sin. He was initially ready to MAYBE forgive him, but Fredo's fall was well underway by this time. Buh-bye, Fredo.
Michael isn't the King of England; protocol is not that rigid. What bothered Michael was Fredo's attempt to execute an end run around him right in front of him and everyone else in that room! Even then, Michael never would've murdered his own brother if Fredo had gotten back in line. But when he demonstrated that his resentment of Michael would lead to him -- wittingly or unwittingly -- putting the lives of Michael AND HIS WIFE AND KIDS in jeopardy, then in Michael's eyes he had to go. But the idea that Michael was itching to kill Fredo because of this scene seems to me to be viewers bringing their future knowledge into this moment.
The Michael of Godfather Part I is ruthless, sure, but he's not yet the man who will order his own brother's murder. And he certainly wouldn't have done it for some minor deviation from protocol.
Excellent topic. Michael is basically feeling out everyone who is loyal to the Corleone's; even if Vito is gone. Michael wants to find out who is gonna be with him once he makes his move and even Clemenza and Tessio have this conversation with Michael as well.
So much going on in this scene. Absolutely amazing scriptwriting and acting. Brilliant.
lol I just knew you'd do the 'I talked to Barzini' voice. 😄
Michael IS different from his family: he’s so damn cold.
The rest of them are (among other things) warm-hearted and passionate (often to the point of recklessness in the case of Sonny and Connie).
Michael plays the long game with all of the family’s rivals and allows them to think he’s weak - something Sonny could never do. Even Vito didn’t have the level of deep planning that Michael had, hence the hit on him taking place and the Tattalias seeing through Luca Brazi’s attempt to infiltrate them.
There’s no doubt Michael was giving Moe Greene enough rope to hang himself with in this scene. He was definitely there to rile him up rather than seriously try to make a deal. Michael would have known that his ongoing pretence of weakness meant that Greene would underestimate him.
Anyone admitting they were in talks with Barzini, the boss secretly behind all of the family’s woes, ultimately got killed: Greene, Carlo and Tessio, for example.
Was it just business? Was some of it motivated by revenge for the hits on Vito, Sonny and Apollonia?
I agree with most of your points, except that part II shows just how cold Vito could be. Michael is cold but to quote another Pacino character “ he never screwed anyone who didn’t have it coming to them”.
Good Post….
Awesome post here!
He’s protecting his family by any means necessary. All he’s known is enemies trying and succeeding in killing his family/ wife
Referring to Tom saying he wants everyone dead he replies “ no Tom, just my enemies ( people who wish death upon him, his family )
4:15 because that is not the way his father taught him. You make a reasonable offer first, then you make the offer they cannot refuse. This shows the rest of the world you are not just a blood thirsty thug but a reasonable man who can be dealt with reasonably but who will not take a refusal lying down.
It's no small thing that he beat fredo in public. Fredo is made Man and captain, a Jewish mafia Associate is not. that is a massive difference and a death sentence end and of itself.
I would also add Fredo was the son of Don Vito Corleone meaning Fredo was the son of a king, a prince and as we learned in John Wick if you're hit a prince and live to tell it you better have a damn good reason for doing it.
Al Pacino played these parts so well , you can just see dangerous Michael is even with that calm relaxed look on his face.
Yeah the producers didn't want him in the role until they saw him in the hit on Sollozzo, then they were "all right then". Once you have seen Pacino in action, and you know he can turn that shit on at will, you experience him being still and silent very differently. Until you have seen that, you might just think of him as a quiet guy
@@dzonbrodi514 👌
@Dzon Brodi I agree. And it is true in real life that it is the quiet ones who display more stoicism in their dealings with people that can be more dangerous than short fuses like Sonny or Moe Green. You don't know where you stand with such people precisely, and that can be very dangerous if they're given a powerful leadership position as Vito Corleone gave his son Michael.
@@dzonbrodi514 Yes, except it wasn't the producers, but the studio execs -- from Robert Evans on up to the CEO of Gulf + Western (Paramount's owner) -- who didn't want Pacino. They, understandably, wanted a big name to help sell the movie. Coppola knew that Pacino was his guy, though, and thankfully he and Al Ruddy fought for him and won.
This is covered in the miniseries The Offer that came out last year. Really fun watch for any Godfather fan.
@@mleone77 who did they want instead?
A great analysis. I read the book in 1971, and of course I have seen the movie multiple times. The more I learn about and think about the movie, the more I am persuaded that it is the best movie I have ever seen.
Can you believe there are people who say it’s overrated? They obviously never really watched it. Definitely not a movie you can only watch once. I’ve seen it like 50+ times and still learn something new each time.
The connections in this movie always amaze me. Never thought about this move… makes me want to rewatch pt 2 for similar moves done to him.
I always liked the part of the scene where Mike talks about Moe "straightening out " Fredo. And, Moe stops his tirade, and with a slightly worried look on his face, straightens his tie, and sits back down. Realizing, he may have crossed a line with that action.
Dude, NO ONE knows more about this movie/book than you. Great breakdown. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I know more than CineRanter
Thank you
@@CineRanter The more I think about it, I really think you know more about the Godfather story than Puzo and Coppola. They would be amazed by these videos, absolutely certain of it. I warked in the feature film industry for about a decade - 20+ features. Big name ones. Worked on 5 of Robin Wiliams and he was great friends with Francis. One day while working on Fathers Day, we were filming at Rubicon restaurant in San Francisco, which was co-owned by Robin and Francis. Got to meet Coppola, shook his hand and made him an esperesso - I was Craft Services. Not the name you see in the credits, but the unnamed assistant, who usually did all the work and got all the credit from the cast and crew but not at the end of the film. So be it - got paid for it though. 😁 Anyhow, just wanted you to know, theres someone out there who really appreciates film making, and also loves continuity, and the elements that go into the story and backstory, which you do so well. Your efforts are not unnoticed. YOU should be working in the writers rooms of Hollywood. Always look forward to your insight & brilliant breakdowns. Interesting observations every time. Tip of the hat 🫡
No one?
AGREED
You just gave me new reasons to watch the movie again. Michael had his mind made up about moe you can tell when he told Johnny that moe will sell his share of the casino before the meeting started. And I think Michael knew moe was gonna fight instead of name a price especially since Michael knew moe was dealing with Barzini.
I believe Michael had the meeting with Moe Greene to find out which family would ally with Greene if he was proposed an unwanted buyout. The Barzini family would be another obstacle for the Corleone's and would further escalate hostilities in New York. Michael also took the abuse of his brother Fredo by Greene personally. If Michael was there exclusively there for business, Michael would have never brought up the slapping of his brother around in public. There was a detectable feeling of family embarrassment and shame when Michael was told by Greene that Fredo was "banging cocktail waitresses two at a time." Voicing that out loud was disrespect. All of this gave Michael a clear indication that he could never deal with Greene, and had to kill him.
Whoever cast the actors in the Godfather trilogy did a fabulous job. For instance, casting Alex Rocco as Moe Green was genius....he was great in every role he was in.
It takes an old school man's man with hair on his body to wear a suit jacket with a short sleaved shirt under. Loved this choice of actor!
You could say that Alex Rocco brought good credentials to the role. Prior to taking up acting and converting to the Bahá'í Faith, he had some involvement with the organized crime, for which he did jail time. I read somewhere that Joe Bonanno invited Mr. Rocco to his 80th birthday party - and he went (I suppose "for old time's sake", as Salvatore Tessio would say).
Moe was a dead man the day he roughed up Fredo. Hyman Roth knew this. He let his friend die.
Your videos have cleared up so many things that I had thought were writing errors in the plot. It all makes sense now. Well done!
Can u name a few
This conversation let Michael know for sure that Moe, Barzini, and every head of the other five families were all in together to tie out the Corleones. Michael already knew from his father that Barzini was the mastermind with Solazzo and MClusky. But now he had a license to clean house and take over all of it, all at once. This was a swing for the fences move by the Corleone family.
Good points as always. I couldn't see the whole video because I was banging cocktail waitresses, 2 at a time😂😂
He sounds like Vader when he says "I talked to Barzini" 😂
Your theory is spot on IMHO. The "long game" is the norm in the gangster world, "keep your enemy closest", etc. Pretending to look for opportunities to do business with said enemy, whilst using that same excuse to transfer the "fault" on them, and use that to justify killing them. It's all an elaborate "weird diplomacy" thing. A bit like the official justice system uses, where as long as you can twist the law to say what you want it to say, you can commit all sorts of disreputable actions with total impunity. The Godfather is a masterpiece on so many level. Great study of the human genre too.
As always an excellent analysis. You can watch a movie all your life, and this video explains it all.
READ. READ READ. THE BOOK. WOW. INDEBT. FILLS. IN EVERYTHING. HOW PAULIE GATTO. GOT INVOLVED AND MANY OTHERS. CHECK OUT OTHER BOOKS. G.F. (CALLED. THE FAMILY. THERES SO MANY. AND EASY TO READ. READ READ
Nah. As others have pointed out, Solozzo tried to kill Vito because he knew Sonny as the underboss would take over and Sonny was interested in the deal. And if Michael had wanted to kill Moe Greene all along he wouldn’t need a justification. Michael doesn’t get permission from the Commission, HE WIPED OUT THE COMMISSION. He came to Vegas to make a deal, but Moe Greene revealed he was making deals with Barzini. That’s what got Greene killed, aligning himself with Barzini.
I really appreciate hearing analyses of The Godfather movies, I totally love the films, but I can never really understand what the plotting and scheming is about - so really appreciate the insight 🤗
A very provocative video capturing Michael's forethought and brilliance pertaining to his possible machinations.
I have always felt that there were multiple layers to this scene. 1) Greene was moving Fredo's loyalties away from the family, which could not be tolerated. 2) Greene was abusive to Fredo. 3) The casino is losing money. 4) Michael's buy-in will come with Greene selling out. 5) Greene would not be completely out, but Michael would be directly in. 7) Michael perceived Greene as allied with his enemies and wished to investigate.
Obviously, Michael finds all of these things to be true, given that Fredo side with Greene against Michael. I believe that the offer was legitimate, and it would have merely proved Greene to be a slimy grifter and troublemaker but not an enemy. Instead by visibly abusing Fredo, being defended in turn by Fredo, and rejecting Michael's offer with calumnies and vitriol, he confirms his allegiance and earns a bullet in the eye.
Never noticed the set lights reflecting in Moe’s glasses.
The best word for this strategy is "cunning."
Vito intimated in the meeting with the families "when have I ever refused an accommodation " this suggest he had shared the judges and politicians before but he drew the line at drugs. An often overlooked aspect is the Turk referring to the Don as "slipping" This can be assumed is the attitude of Tataglia and Bazzini. They believed it was time for Vito to go and with Tessio in thier back pocket they assumed they could control Sonny or at some point get rid of him. But they never saw Michael coming that's were they fucked up. Michael was the unintended consequence the unforseen event that could not be predicted.
I read the book and have seen the movies many times and I found this perspective to be fascinating. I agree with all of this and it makes the story deeper and more enjoyable.
First thing you got wrong was saying Michael was a weak Don. They summised Michael couldn’t step into his Fathers Shoes. In real life Meyer and Frank never had a fall out, both them two and Charlie kept paying off Bennys debts until it was proven how much Virginia Hill banked abroad.
How about the diner scene, and how as Michael is sitting after coming back from the bathroom with the gun, the train is heard, getting louder and louder and louder and it is coming and it is inevitable, there is no stopping it. The perfect background noises for Michael's situation. Watch Pacino's eyes and expression. He is still hesitant until the moment his mind comes into full focus and he is all in. He is there it is unavoidable, he is committed and cannot stop now. It is one of the best written and filmed scenes in all of movie history.
FACT
@@shaunokeefe7162 How about the scene after Michael saves Vito at the hospital. He is sitting in with Sonny, tom, Clemenza and Tessio, and is listening and taking it all in. When he speaks up in that deliberate determined voice we see him sitting in the chair, legs crossed, calm and cold in his speaking. He is watching Sonny reacting wildly, and he is seeing tom react with extreme caution and knows the middle ground of those reactions are the right course of action. he has military experience from WWII and uses his knowledge of tactics o make plans on how to get the gun there. He is suggesting and questioning if Clemenza can get it there, which makes Clemenza only more likely to do it to prove he is trustworthy with the act. And when Michael is laughed at for saying he will kill the two enemies, the look on his face is intense and only Tom sees how determined and brilliant Michael is. That is the moment he becomes the heir and the Godfather. The killings at the diner are only the last act he needs to prove his worth to the rest of them. And Michael sees his act to protect his father and family, not for revenge. Because it really was business, not personal. Now, killing Carmine, that was personal.
Well said.
No matter how many times you watch it. It is one of the great movie scenes of all time .he hesitates, and is he going to do the deed, or maybe he isn't going to go through with it?
Great explanation. Every time you watch this movie you find out something new in this movie masterpiece .
The amount of things you got wrong about this movie in the first 1:21 is astounding.
I think Michael wanted to kill Moe Green anyway. There’s an exchange in the novel where after the meeting with Moe,Michael asks Ralph Neri if he got a good look at Moe Green. I always thought that the meeting was a way Neri could get a good look at Moe Green because Michael was pissed at Moe Green for slapping Fredo around in public.
Moe is dead man walking when he beat up fredo
Like Roth said “This is the Business we chose, I didn’t ask who gave the order because IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSINESS”
If Michael had already made up his mind about killing Moe Greene he would have just blindsided him without prior talks. Michael wanted to analyse Moe's reaction first. The possible outcomes were:
- What actually happened: Moe is a hothead and immediately spills the beans about inner circle information regarding the power status of the Mafia families, in order to intimidate Michael. He even admits he talked to Barzini. The only possible source of this info is Barzini anyway, who used it so he could bolster Moe's morale in case he has to face off against Michael... but of course he certainly did not tell him to TELL Michael to his face he knows any of this, because it ultimately reveals the source (Barzini).
- Moe is smart and barely shows any reaction, except feigned indignation over Michael's distrust against a loyal ally, which could have sowed doubt in Michael's head. Michael avoided this specific scenario of a calm and collected reaction by Moe, because it was Michael who paid cocktail waitresses to fuck Fredo... two at a time! He knew hothead Moe would slap his idiot brother around for that.
- Moe is innocent.
In summary Michael tried to reveal a possible connection to whoever was behind the attacks against his family without knowing, if his tactics would reveal anything.
I think Moe’s admission that the other families are approaching him with a deal is the big detail Michael was fishing for. He needs to know how broad of a net he has to cast with his kill-spree, and Moe’s statement reveals that all of the families are lined up against him and aggressively infringing on Corleone interests, justifying Michael’s eventual scorched earth retaliation. Moe is killed as well, in the end, for a litany of reasons: skimming money from the casino, disrespecting Fredo, but worst of all is taking sides against the family by entertaining deals from the other families.
I’ve watched the first movie many times, and this is the First time i’ve ever thought of that meeting with Moe as being a “set up”. However, it does explain very well just why Michael is so incredibly calm during the entire meeting and always polite, even when Moe is yelling at him.
Another perfect insight. Well done!
I LOVE the line from Moe Green,
"I made my bones when you were going out with cheerleaders"!
surprised why it isn't a classic Godfather line.
When you were banging cheerleaders I thought he said
@@tjschakow
When Moe Green was explaining why he hit Fredo he said Fredo was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time and that the players couldn't get a drink at the tables.
Before Moe Green leaves after having been insulted by the offer to sell the Casino he tells Michael Corleone that he made his bones when (Michael) was going out with cheerleaders.
@@juancervantes4085 I love how they all underestimated Michael because he was young. That was their fatal mistake.
@@KtotheG Michael learned from the marines how to do the job. Who ever was his DI probably did a great job.
Nicely done video. Good editing, etc. lot of work went into creating it. Thanks
3:03 Ha! You did the voice change as well. 😂
I'm glad at the end of this clip it was finally mentioned that "it was Barzini all along...."
Loving the channel mate
Combination of Barzini encroaching, Sonny speaking out of turn and letting Solotzo know what he was thinking which allowed Solotzo to think if he killed the Don he could handle Sonny. Sonny was a loose cannon. Corleone family was bankrolling Moe it’s pretty clear Moe was skimming which is a death sentence. If it’s Corleone money. Greene further compounds his predicament by doing what Sonny did . Greene let Mike know what he was thinking.and revealed his utter disloyalty to the Corleone by negotiating with their enemies, Barzini. Either way Mike was there to get the info that he needed to remove Greene. Molinaris needed to be placated. Stealing from the Corleone was enough.
Loved the analysis! ❤
Why would anyone send their kid to apprentice with someone like Moe Greene?
It really puts that famous line, "an offer he can't refuse," into greater context given that's what Vito does that prompts the hit on him, refuse an offer he shouldn't have. I had never connected that before.
Very nice analysis!
I don't know how obvious this is, but I haven't seen anyone else touch on it before:
When Michael tells Fredo to get rid of the band and the girls, it's because he sees through Greene, knowing the girls are there to caress and soften up Mike, and the band to charm him even more.
Wasn't all of that Fredo's idea, though?
Well Fredo is dim-witted so Green probably recommended that Fredo do it but Michael could see through all of that! He was there for business only and no games so he didn't want women or a band!
Intelligent analysis. Thank you.
Don Corleone himself said that he didn't want to talk to Green. Meaning he was going to deal with Green in another way.
Here's a theory :
Speculation that insisted on further speculation.
These movies were in theaters to see once or twice not recorded to be the scutinized over in and over.
Fast moving semi plausible dialogue and storyline . Bang bang shoot em up close curtain ..
They had your money at the door.
People weren't expected to go over and over the details. Even real life crime bosses aren't studied that closely.
What’s crazy is Alex Rocco “moe green” was almost convicted of murder in his younger days
This theory is bunk. Micheal didn't need any additional business rationale for killing Mo Green. Your argument is that if he just killed him without a 'legitimate reason' then the other 5 families would move against him. But Micheal simultaneously killed the other heads of the 5 families. There is/would be no one left to move against him. Michael killed Green first and foremost to take over his casino but also because he was disrespecting Fredo (and him by extension). Had he not disrespected Fedo Michael may have just forced him out (made him and offer he couldn't refuse). The reason why his sit down with Mo Green is important is because during it Mo reveals that he was already in cahoots with Barzini. That confirms to Michael that Mo is no longer his partner but working with his enemies and that he should die when everyone else dies.
I think you forget the plotline which is Barzini was using the Tattaglias and Sollozzo in order to actually acquire the Corleone family territory and operation. That's the whole idea of The Puppetmaster pulling the strings and setting up the table. Vito makes the comment to Robert Duvall in the car after the meeting that the Tattaglias could never have afforded to off Sonny. It was Barzini doing it all the time funding and supporting Sollozzo behind the scenes to create the turmoil and the war.
How does this guy not know the real reason Solozzo tried to take out Vito!?
Mario Puzo wrote The Godfather and also assisted in screen writing. If you read the novel, there are hidden asides. My favorite lines in the novel are the first and last paragraph. America Bounosera sat on bench outside the criminal court seeking justice for what those men did to his daughter. He would find no justice there…
(This line deliberately calls a man America. It s/b Americo)
The last line….Kay saw the door close. She knew the truth about Carlo Ritzi, and all she could for Michael was pray.
If you take Puzo’s first two words and the last word in the novel, it translates to GOOD NIGHT AMERICA PRAY. The novel is full of these hidden meanings.
It is the novel The Godfather that is a masterpiece.
Moe : "Your name lost all all its influence, you have zero reputation now".
Michael : "Ok, so I will BUILD A NEW reputation. And you can help."
I thought Michael talked to Moe Green so he could find out that it was in fact Barzinni as the one on the board who wanted to destroy the Corleone family completely.
That is part of it. Michael already knew that it was always Barzini who was his MAIN THREAT.
In the novels they already knew that. Don Corleone explains to Hagen right after the peace talks that "a pezzonovatti" like Tataglia would have never caught Santino, therefore he knew it had to be Barzini (plus other information that the Don doesn't particularly care to mention).
This is genius. I have always wondered how Vito knew it was Barzini backing Tattellia. Makes more sense now.
Genius "I talked to Barzini" edit mode
You already know that you nailed it, so yes, I agree.😁👍🏾
Good interesting analysis , personally i think you may need to put a bit more weight onto the Drugs aspect of the deal which was far more significant to Vitos position as he knew it would be his family that would have most to lose with that shift - also the dynamic between Michaels brother and Greene is underplayed in my opinion ;-)
I like your theory. Would love to hear what Mario Puzzo would have to say about it
4:57 Just a correction. The Molinari Family out of San Francisco wasn't "backing" Moe Greene but protecting Fredo as a service to the Corleone Family by their guarantee of retribution if anything happened to him. This is because the Corleone's didn't have any assets in the area but a San Francisco Family was close enough to Vegas to exert infuence. Also, at 2:21 when you say the killing of the 5 Families I still prefer the book version where Tataglia and Barzini were the only ones killed, although it wouldn't have been as legendary onscreen, even when Rocco Lampone's secret _regime_ swooped in to the former Corleone territories to reclaim their numbers and bookie joints. In the movie there was never a payoff to revealing Lampone's status through Hagen's questioning Michael.
The Godfather is still my favorite movie of all time. It simply has no peer. And there's a lot of great movies to consider.
Godfather 2?
I think your theory is missing a very important fact. As you stated, Micheal planned all along to kill the heads of the 5 families so those families would be too weak to start a war. As far as the Molinari family, I don't think they would have started a war after Micheal wiped out his East coast competition.
Michel left one war only to find himself involved in another war. Both wars involved killing. Michel intended to "win" this second war, and at the same time keep his promise to Kaye that the family would be completely "legitimate" in five years. His plan was to secure a foothold in Vegas where gambling is legitimate, then end the war in New York by killing the heads of the opposing families, closing up shop in New York, and concentrating on building his "legitimate" empire in Vegas. His offer to Greene , I believe, was a genuine one, but when he learned {or wanted confirmation} that Greene was negotiating with Barzinni, Green was then added to his hit list. He did say to Fredo, "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse".
One thing i don`t get is, if Vito dies, the Corleones losses the political connections and half of thier power (as Hagen explained to Sonny), so, what kind of deal would Sonny offer to the Turk? he hasn`t his father political connections. In the novel, even Michael had to work hard to regain that political power in order to green light the 5 families hits.
It was never about a deal and Greene knew it. Hence his remark “the corleones don’t have that kind of ‘muscle’…..”
Reviewing the exact dialog Michael used with Moe Greene suggests he was attempting to press Greene into losing his temper and revealing Greene's negotiations with Barzini. Like an excellent lawyer, Michael went into the meeting with the information Greene was choosing sides. Note that he did not respond to Greene's suggestion the Corleone family didn't have that kind of power now and Michael failed to engage in an argument. He told Greene his leadership was "unlucky." Since casino's create the illusion of a fair game, the truth is the house always has the odds in their favor. There is no lucky or unlucky aspect to what the casino's offer. But using that term was a clear cut trigger to Greene, and he few off the handle. He showed his tell and confirmed what Michael knew.
Now go to Godfather II, and the conversation between Hyman Roth and Michael Corleone. Roth made it clear Moe Greene was a hot head and his murder supported Greene's temper and rash behavior. This surely underscores Greene's response to Michael as something which could be planned for. It also puts Greene in a position to either begin a friendly negotiation with the Corleone's, or push back. And because of his evidently well known rash behavior, manipulating him into revealing his plans was the smarter Michael playing Greene.
When Michael was not forthcoming with the two million dollars to Roth, it could be seen as the same maneuver Michael made with Greene. It angered Roth, and he displayed his outrage at Moe Greene's death still to that day. Roth's assurance he didn't ask any questions about who was behind Greene's assassination was weak, but his visceral reaction told the truth. He wanted vengeance for Moe Greene's death and he knew Michael was behind it. Because the heads of four of the five families were assassinated, and the Corleone family was the only one to retain their head. And since Roth was partners with Vito Corleone in the olive oil business for decades, he surely would see through any ruse to disguise who was behind Greene's death.
One last point. Killing, or attempting to kill Vito Corleone would forever ruin any type of alliance between Sollozzo regardless of how much Sonny might have been in favor of the massive profits from drugs. The killing of Don Vito was to weaken the Corleone family and the four other families under the obscured guidance of Barzini would have eventually ended the Corleone regime. The lion share of it would belong to Barzini, The mistake of Sollozzo and Barzini along with Phillip Tallaglia was underestimating Michael's acumen. Not any fantasy about Sonny getting over his father's death and joining the murderers of his father in business. But the reasonable aspect you proffer ignores the fact all of the four families must have been in agreement to kill Don Vito. Thus the action by the Corleone's was always about revenging and protecting their domain. And if you plan on killing all the heads of your enemies, their approval of Moe Greene's killing is moot. Because, as Hyman Roth once said about Frankie Fiveangels, "He's small potatoes." So was Moe Greene. Not justification needed.
I'm sorry Mr. CineRanter, but I am not in agreement with your position.
Really good analysis!! Michael learned!
I think your theory makes perfectly sense!
I dunno if he was based on Siegel but Lansky saved his ass so many times and there is only so much the commission, even Luciano, even his buddy Lansky would take. He was killed for 2 main reasons, stealing from the mob as confirmed by Lansky through Virginia Hill and Siegel kept claiming to be boss of LA, for which he had no authority.
This scene always bumps me. When Moe says the line "I talked to Barzini", his lips don't really match what he sounds like. I wonder if it was dubbed later or something.
Michael made him an offer that Moe refused.
Under international contract law, an offer coupled with consideration (money) is deemed an obligation that cannot be refused, it can only be met with acceptance or counteroffer until an agreement is reached. This contract principle was established over 5,000 years ago. Literally, a business offer of contract or compromise cannot be refused. It is the law.
Michael, as the new head of the Corleone family, was not weak or afraid of taking on the other families because he still had the full family's soldiers. He wanted to lull the other families into a complacency to where they'd get careless in their dealings with Michael. Once they let down their guard, he was then able to set up the other bosses to get whacked. Same with Moe Greene, who got careless because he thought the Corleone family was by the boards and he was partnered up with Barzini. Remember that after the big national meeting at the Waldorf (??) Hotel, Vito was talking to Michael and told him he had been thinking about Tataglia being the cause of his troubles, but at the meeting he listened to Barzini's ramblings and then realized it was really Barzini all the time. So while Michael was innocently at the church with his god child getting baptized, he had also set into motion the "whack-a-thon" that permanently solved his problems with the other bosses.