The physics behind moving model trains vs. moving real trains is fun. The counterpoint to weighting cars is weighting locomotives to increase tractive effort and for steam, balancing the mass on the wheels so it is centered. Thanks for your hard work on these!
The other thing that comes to my mind is to make up some plaster and pour it into a mould or a wagon with some baking paper between the carriage and the plaster when wet and let it harden, pull it out when hard then paint it or shape it to something that might be in that wagon... or just small lengths of steel/metal or tree branches or lumber around the house.. Another thing that comes to my mind is I used to build RC model boats and have a lot of brass tubing and sheet brass and aluminium and angled or shaped sections that could be built into the frame or side of the wagon and then painted to match the colour of the wagon... there are many different ways to do things.. sometimes we just have to think outside of the box to get it done.. The other thing that I would like to bring up is there are other places where people do model trains and not just the USA and Uk.. I am in Melbourne Australia and you never mention us.. we have lots of clubs and thousands of hobby modellers that are into model trains... I have watched many of your videos and thought I needed to bring this up, and, as content creators, we, (Yes I make TH-cam videos also) need to understand that TH-cam is going around the world and people from All countries watch our videos.... I am not into DCC just DC but you have some great ideas and things on your channel that have helped me with my layout.
Nice vid. I first realized how important car weight is when I saw how much better my N scale 55 ton hoppers tracked after I added coal loads. Adding weight was also the solution to a problem I had with one of my passenger train cars. Thanks for all of your weight ideas.
Your point of putting light cars to the rear of your train is correct. In the 1:1 scale of real railroads there are strict train makeup restrictions in car placement according to weight and even length to some extent. This lessons the problems of stringlining and also spitting out light cars when the heavy rear end runs into the train.
Thanks for this video. As a modeller in the UK (I model US railroads as well as British) it is really helpful to have access to this info. We don't have anything like the NMRA over here so this kind of research from you guys is most welcome. Love your weekly videos, they make my Friday
Well, about that. The NMRA actually _does_ have a British chapter, although they don't mandate that people who join them model exclusively-American rail operations. That said, they hope to get some unified standards for models going over there as well.
@jimmyseaver3647 I am an NMRA member. What I meant is that their standards don't apply to UK models and there isn't a British equivalent. I wish there was
Enjoyed the educational video. Now I understand more as to why my N scale cars don't like my rails in their out of the box configuration. I'll check them and see if this will help them out. Thanks for sharing!
Great topic, Larry. In N scale I like to slightly overweight my cars by .01-.02 oz to prevent string-lining and to reduce the "slinky" effect that can be an issue in N scale.
I think you were referring to linotype that came from the printing industry. The linotype was made from just about pure lead. Bullet casters use this to cast bullets and make very good weights for HO scale. The linotype bars fit nicely into an HO scale piece of rolling stock. Cheers from eastern TN
As a Double-O modeler here in the States, I appreciate your occasional mention of our challenges. A for weight being different due to the scale, not to worry. The cross-section of a typical OO (1:72) car is quite close to that of an HO. The British cars are made that way because of the older challenges of making locomotives to scale with the technology available back when. My Bullied brake van, basically a coach, is nearly identical in actual size to my American coaches. Another challenge here is that most of the bogies (trucks) are rigid, no springs, no movement, which can raise the devil on some track. When possible, I actually add weight to the actual bogies, as most are not see-through, anyway. Note: the stick-on weights don't stick. I CAREFULLY add a couple drops of superglue straddling the kingpin, and have found that to practically cure poor tracking by coaches 10" long with total weights of less than 3 ounces. It also reduces stringlining and keeps the c.g. low.
One thing that really hampers the tracking performance of coaches is most have the couplings located on the bogies. When going through tight curves and turnouts, especially when backing up, this tends to push the wheels off the rails. On older US HO scale coaches and cars with truck mounted couplers I usually body mount them but have not tried that with my UK stock, yet.
Thanks for this Larry - excellent thoughts on this subject. You know there are some fantastic "cab ride" videos here on TH-cam where someone has put a micro-camera on a flat car and run it round a layout. Many of them look fantastic and realistic until they get to a rough bit of track and then, because they lack any real weight vehicles tremble from side to side very fast in a very unrealistic way which spoils the whole effect. This is most noticeable usually on passenger cars. Adding weights stops that.
Great Video. One suggestion is not to use steel or other ferrous products for weights because if you have under the track magnets it will interfere with the couplers causing premature uncoupling. I have substituted all steel weights with non ferrous metal weights and have changed wheel sets from steel to brass or any other non magnetic material. Cars track better and much fewer train separations.
Good subject Larry. Adding self adhesive weights like you have shown under the chassis in my kit built (Parkside, Ratio, Slaters Airfix) wagons makes a huge difference, in fact its the final part in assembling the kit. Then they run really well. An alternative is to add loads eg from Ten Commandments which are made from heavy plaster and do the same job as well as adding aesthetics.
Great video. You would be amazed at how often this issue comes up in the real world. For example, UP has/had a rule that you couldn't entrain any empty cars ahead of 4500 tons, for several factors. I am hoping to create a hump yard using your electromagnet ideas at the hump tower and let them roll into a bowl yard. Car weight is one big issue; the heavier the car the faster it will roll free and out the other end, and the lighter car might not clear the lead. Just like the real thing...
I mix a small packet of wall plaster bought cheaply from DIY stores and by trial and error put a little at the bottom of certain coal and other wagons then put "coal" or a similar "load" on top. It is hidden, sets solid, doesn`t move around and adds the required weight to the wagon. This gives locomotives real work to do and results in more realistic running.
Nice video, Larry. I feel that adding weight to underweight cars is very important. I do have one concern, though, and that has to do with using loads to add weight to cars. "Empties in" and "loads out" dictates that cars aren't always loaded. They should be empty until loaded with some product or material at an industry. ...Roy
I agree, and that is why I suggested putting unloaded cars towards the rear of the train. It is especially important with the coal hoppers and pulpracks since the loads can contribute a lot of weight and the empty car is usually very light.
Another useful material weight, although expensive, is tungsten. It is almost twice as heavy as lead. It is most easily available as cubes and other shapes for the "Pinewood Derby" cars. But beware of getting "tungsten carbide" instead which is not as heavy, but is a little cheaper. You can get cubes in various sizes, down to as small as 1.94 mm from an industrial supplier called TungstenParts with a 1 lb minimum order. You can also get tungsten powder, but it is not as dense due to the "sphere packing equation" which means some of the volume of theoretically tiny balls bunched together is air space. GolfWorks tungsten powder (for weighting golf clubs) is a reliable source (beware of some products with lower prices advertised as tungsten powder, but are actually steel. If the price is to good to be true, it probably isn't really tungsten).
You can cast part of a car in metal to add weight and "hide the weight in plain sight". I had a goal of having empty drop door gondolas made from plastic kits get close to the NMRA recommended practice for good tracking. Part of that was a tungsten bar hidden in the center sill and small tungsten cubes hidden in voids in the draft gear area. But I cast the drop doors out of metal and made them about three times thicker also. The extra thickness is not noticeable even if you turn the car over and look at it. And the doors alone added about one ounce.
This video, like literally all of yours, is excellent. Thank you. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts and any hard info you might know of, on the weight of locomotives. I can imagine there's a lot of subtlety involved in the dos and don'ts. I don't recall ever seeing in any of your videos something suggesting you pay much attention to measuring drawbar pull. Do you even do that? Every MR review mentions it, but I've never paid much attention. Should I? Thanks again. bravo!
Gene-I don’t even own a rig for measuring it since it only refers to pulling power on a straight flat track. Add a grade or a curve and it is different. It really is only useful when comparing locos. With diesels if you need more pulling power just add another loco. If you run a a lot of steam then you could eventually develop a chart for how many cars each loco can pull in various sections of a railroad just like the prototype. In most cases train length is determined more by the shortest passing siding on the layout.
As far as weights on passenger cars depends on if you are going to have interiors in them . I never glue my cars together on either freight or on passenger cars, thereby ease of adding interiors in them. 1 problem is Athearn 72' cars is the weights interfere with interiors. In my train club we use mostly shot. Underneath them has plenty of room for shot. Interiors also get them pretty close weight wise.
Some cars are near impossible to weight, such as logging skeleton cars and disconnect logging cars. You can weight the logs but this puts the weight up high. I also try to get as much weight in my locomotives as possible. I have a lot of cheap tyco junk and have made them work fairly well. I put diesel running gear inside a tyco Chattanooga tender powered locomotive and put stick on weight everywhere there was space inside. It works quite well.
Thanks for your video on this topic, Larry. Another reason not to over-weight your cars -- model trains don't have brakes. A train of heavy cars, descending a long or a steep grade, especially with free-rolling trucks, can overpower a locomotive and cause a runaway.
My rule of thumb is (I pretty sure it's an NMRA practice) : measure car, divide in 2, add 1 oz. 6" car divided by 2 = 3, add 1 = total car weight 4 oz.
Personally, I believe that the NMRA RP is still a little light. I generally use approximately 1 ounce above that RP. I believe that they will continue to track better through turnouts and up/down the grades. The additional weight doesn't seem to effect the pulling capacity of the locomotives, all of which retain original factory weight. Further, and, as you have stated/recommended - I, too, use metal wheelsets, primarily Intermountain, but with a smattering of Kadee, Proto 2000 and some othe "oddballs." I have a 4-turn helix that is approximately 2.74% grade and have not encountered problems with "overweighted" cars causng any derailments as the train is pulled up hill. Nor have I experienced any noticable/detectable/excessive wear on the axle points nor the sideframe bearing points. FWIW
Before a car goes on my layout, it gets 3 things: Kadee couplers (adjusted to the proper height), metal wheelsets, and weighted to the NMRA standard. I don't have too many issues with my rolling stock.
Awesome Larry, as usual. Is it Ok of I post your videos on my train club website? I will give you credit of course. Thanks What about larger scale cars? I know that my G gauge cars could use some more weight.
Great clinic on weighting cars Larry. This has been the best explanation to date that I have seen. The 1/4 ounce weights you use, would they be to wide for N scale? If so, can you suggest an alternative. Take care. Sean.
The ones I showed are 5/8” x 3/4” but you may be able to find thinner options by doing a search on eBay. You could also make a small mold with styrene strips and pour your own using lead/steel shot and PVA glue and then glue them in place in your models.
Thanks once again Larry, having an evening of catching up on your Videos, although I live in Southwest Britain I model both H0 North American and 0 Gauge British so I’ll stick to the NRMA recommendations. Great Video.
Deluxe Materials (a British company selling all manner of cements and other products to hobbyists) has something called "Liquid Gravity". it turns out this is just steel blasting shot. You can buy steel blasting shot in bulk even on Amazon in bags at least as small as 5 lbs. Or 50 lbs. if you want. It comes in different grit sizes and I think S-170 is about the same as "Liquid Gravity". S-70 is much finer and I found that if you mix 2 parts S-170 to 1 part S-70 you get about a 10% increase in density (the smaller grit fills in some of the space between the larger grit). You fix it by letting CA cement or epoxy or something soak into it. Be mindful that this is steel and magnetic so you don't want it loose around motors and magnets and such.
If I may add .. if you have a passenger set, or any unit train - the best thing is that the cars weigh the same for a given length. I suspect if they are say 80% of the target weight, you don't have an issue that weight will impact.
Although table in NMRA RP-20.1 talks about scale, I strongly suspect that it’s actually related to gauge. Since OO scale uses the same track gauge as HO scale, I would think that you could just use the same rule as HO scale.
Yes, you might think that however the folks at McKinley Railway use about half the NMRA recommended weight for their wagons. His reasoning being that UK model locos can’t pull as much weight as US locos so he has to compensate. While I would agree for some locos such as the Oxford Rails Dean’s Goods and several Dapol steam locos where they had to provide traction tires to pull any wagons, the more recent Hornby Merchant Navy Class are great locos.
@@TheDCCGuy You did mention that in the video, but that comes across to me as being a compromise because of poor performing locomotives. It has nothing to do with point spacing and curve radiuses, which would be the primary factors in determining the ideal weight.
That’s a tough one. If it has any hollows in the chassis then you could pour in lead bird shot followed with glue to add weight. I have done that with flats. These are cars that need to be placed at the rear of a train and would have a tendency to derail on curves.
Something off here. 9 weights = 2.25 oz. The box car with the weight installed is 4 oz. That leaves 1.75 for the boxcar itself. My HO boxcar, which is the same size, weighs 3.0 oz. What's up with that?
Do the NMRA standards apply to heavy-duty cars with 6-8 axles or more? I have a 6-axle flat car and added enough weight to make it more than double the NMRA weight, to justify the extra axles. The original was significantly underweight compared to NMRA standards.
When I was a kid I was into BB guns so I used steel BB's to add weight to hopper and coal cars , my Dad also had a bunch of steel nuts on his work bench which also work on every other type. An easy formula to remember is HO = .5 oz per in, N = .25 oz per in
Lead, if not covered with paint, can be an irritant to the skin because the lead is more readily absorbed by skin. Use gloves or wash your hands/fingers after handling the lead. The irritation isn't immediate in some people, but almost instant (aching feeling) in others. The handling of lead should be taken with caution. It should not be taken lightly. Steel isn't as heavy per section of weight as lead, but doesn't pose any threat. John
The NMRA standard says assign 1 ounce for the car then add 1/2 ounce per inch of car length. The NMRA website has a table for,other scales. Look for NMRA RECOMMENDED PRACTICES RP-20.1 Car Weight.
I try to add weight in boxcars directly over the trucks, thinking that it might make the car track more stable. I notice that you added the weights in one long strip. Does it make any difference?
If I only need a few then I place them over the trucks as I showed in the boxcar with only two weights. In the other one I needed a lot more weight and laid them out in a row since stacking them over each truck would have raised the center of gravity which can lead to wobble or an unsteady car.
for a 5.5 inch box car, using your formula I get 3.75 ounce (2.75 ounces for the length plus 1 ounce ) ..How do you get 4 ounce... a little confused... thanks
I must have been using a slightly oversized car the day I made up that chart. In some cases if you are between even units it is easier to just round up, especially when using 1/4 oz weights.
For 34' to 52' cars, I like RP20.1 plus 1 ounce. For 54' to 72' cars, RP20.1 plus ½ ounce. For 74' to 89' cars, RP20.1 exactly. Coupling to one short car with needle-point IM wheels with KDs at slow speeds (1smph) is 'slightly' easier; coupling to two 40' cars with free-rolling IM wheels is just right - very easy to 'recreate' prototype mass when coupling up to another stationary mass - even though mass obviously does NOT scale down. Helices ideally should be designed with a greater than 36" radius (48" is better) and even slightly counter-elevated to help prevent stringlining when running longer trains (30 to 40 cars or more). Shorter trains less than 20 cars with all shorter cars should have no problems with stringlining on a helix with good track. Lastly, some freight cars and a few cabooses have a hydra-cushion extension at each end; it is important to measure and include these extensions as part of the car's or caboose's length and not just measure from corner to corner.
Over recent yrs, a search of NMRA records has been conducted for documents of weighting tests and conclusions drawn from them. Nothing has been found. The NMRA weight recommendations are around 60 years old and are in bad need of updating. From dynamical tests done by various modelers, it would appear the NMRA weight recommendation formula for HO is fairly good except for really long cars. The NMRA recommendation for N-scale is flat out wrong. That recommendation specifies car weights that are at least 20% too light. Tracking in N-scale is very crucial to decent running as underweighted cars have the same string-lining problems as HO cars, but car bounce over frogs and the like is of much greater concern than it is with HO scale. In all scales, more exhaustive dynamic tests show that the weighting curve for each scale is not linear as assumed by the NMRA. The optimal curve is "curved" (nonlinear) with the greatest change from a straight line occurring at both ends of the weight curve. These changes are not subtle either or should they be ignored. Anyone who advocates car weights less than the NMRA standard is out to lunch as their experience with cars tracking will be dismal. That includes your friend in the UK who apparently knows little about car/train dynamics and runs his consists at half weight.
Most loco models now are pretty hefty and have a large diescast chassis with a plastic shell so don’t need a extra weight even if you could find a place to add much of it. I used to cast lead slugs to install in my brass steam locos to give them more puling power and also installed lead plates in some Athearn, LifeLike, and other light diesels. But you have to be careful doing it as the axles and bearings may not be designed to take that extra weight. In some cases it is better to just run multiple units to handle the load.
@@TheDCCGuy Thank you. Some S Scale diesels seem kind of light weight to me. Once I tried increasing the weight of an "American Models" F unit by placing lead shot in the hollow fuel tank, and "securing" the shot with melted candle wax (so as to not be permanant). That was a mistake, but I cleaned it out later. "S Helper Service" F units seem about right and are noticeably heavier than American Models diesels. I was just wondering if you knew of some kind of standard or algorithm for the weight of locos. The several S scale steam locos that I have (mostly brass) seem "heavy enough," though a small ten-wheeler I have seems a bit light. I have just one non-brass steamer, and it is high quality diecast, and quite heavy, even for a 4-8-4, and tracks very well. But all this for locos is so far all just guess work. The NMRA weight standards for cars work pretty well. I was wondering . . .
Interestingly I get my MicroEngineering track and turnouts from my friend Larry Morton owner of Tomalco Track. He is primarily an S scale dealer but since he uses ME rails for his products he can also get me HO scale stuff at a very good price. He was just here on saturday to deliver another batch of track.
@@TheDCCGuy Small world! Plese give him my should out for "Finescale S." He is a hero for us S gaugers. I have a section or two of Tomalco S flex track, however, so far I have laid all my own track in S standard gauge and Sn3. Code 70 for Sn3, and code 100 and 83 for standard gauge, with a smattering of code 70 for standard gauge. I mill my own ties out of just plain walnut. I mill the walnut to whatever size I need. I needs no stain, and comes out as medium-weathered wood all by itself. I"m also making a trestle out of the unstained walnut. I wish I could post photos here, but then we'd turn YT into Facebook.
@@TheDCCGuy I thought so. Just want confirmation. I just got into the hobby and I'm finding out that there is a lot more to it than just running the trains. Thx for your video(s).
BTW, if you do try to add weight in the form of lead or other material be careful. You need to balance the weight distribution so it is centered over the driving wheels and also the supporting wheels (in the case of steamers). Otherwise it can actually lift them off the rails and lose traction.
At the time this video was uploaded TH-cam would send emails to subscribers when a new video was released. They no longer do that but they do put a blue dot in your list of subscriptions and include the channel listing in you “new videos” reminder.
Some have a screw through the bottom that holds the car together. Remove the screw, lift the top section and add your weight. If the car cannot be taken apart then drill a hole in the bottom, pour in some lead birdshot or BBs, then pour in some PVA glue, plug the hole, let it dry in the upright position before returning to the track.
Another easily available option is BB’s. These now seem to be copper or zinc coated steel shot and are fairly heavy but the new shot made as a lead shot replacement may be more affordable.
It's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. I'll subscribe if your videos worthwhile but I'm not going to subscribe before I ever. It will never be a good thing if I have to take my stars
The physics behind moving model trains vs. moving real trains is fun. The counterpoint to weighting cars is weighting locomotives to increase tractive effort and for steam, balancing the mass on the wheels so it is centered. Thanks for your hard work on these!
Weighting locos will not affect a car's ability to stay on the tracks if it is under-weighted. In this case, loco weight is immaterial.
The other thing that comes to my mind is to make up some plaster and pour it into a mould or a wagon with some baking paper between the carriage and the plaster when wet and let it harden, pull it out when hard then paint it or shape it to something that might be in that wagon... or just small lengths of steel/metal or tree branches or lumber around the house..
Another thing that comes to my mind is I used to build RC model boats and have a lot of brass tubing and sheet brass and aluminium and angled or shaped sections that could be built into the frame or side of the wagon and then painted to match the colour of the wagon... there are many different ways to do things.. sometimes we just have to think outside of the box to get it done..
The other thing that I would like to bring up is there are other places where people do model trains and not just the USA and Uk.. I am in Melbourne Australia and you never mention us.. we have lots of clubs and thousands of hobby modellers that are into model trains... I have watched many of your videos and thought I needed to bring this up, and, as content creators, we, (Yes I make TH-cam videos also) need to understand that TH-cam is going around the world and people from All countries watch our videos.... I am not into DCC just DC but you have some great ideas and things on your channel that have helped me with my layout.
Nice vid. I first realized how important car weight is when I saw how much better my N scale 55 ton hoppers tracked after I added coal loads. Adding weight was also the solution to a problem I had with one of my passenger train cars. Thanks for all of your weight ideas.
Your point of putting light cars to the rear of your train is correct. In the 1:1 scale of real railroads there are strict train makeup restrictions in car placement according to weight and even length to some extent. This lessons the problems of stringlining and also spitting out light cars when the heavy rear end runs into the train.
First time viewer and learned a lot regarding the proper weights for model railroading. Thanks so much for your informative video.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for this video. As a modeller in the UK (I model US railroads as well as British) it is really helpful to have access to this info. We don't have anything like the NMRA over here so this kind of research from you guys is most welcome. Love your weekly videos, they make my Friday
Well, about that. The NMRA actually _does_ have a British chapter, although they don't mandate that people who join them model exclusively-American rail operations. That said, they hope to get some unified standards for models going over there as well.
@jimmyseaver3647 I am an NMRA member. What I meant is that their standards don't apply to UK models and there isn't a British equivalent. I wish there was
Enjoyed the educational video. Now I understand more as to why my N scale cars don't like my rails in their out of the box configuration. I'll check them and see if this will help them out. Thanks for sharing!
Not sure if it was mentioned but replacing the plastic trucks with metal units adds weight and lowers the center of gravity.
Great topic, Larry. In N scale I like to slightly overweight my cars by .01-.02 oz to prevent string-lining and to reduce the "slinky" effect that can be an issue in N scale.
I think you were referring to linotype that came from the printing industry. The linotype was made from just about pure lead. Bullet casters use this to cast bullets and make very good weights for HO scale. The linotype bars fit nicely into an HO scale piece of rolling stock. Cheers from eastern TN
As always, very helpful info. Thanks, Larry.
As a Double-O modeler here in the States, I appreciate your occasional mention of our challenges. A for weight being different due to the scale, not to worry. The cross-section of a typical OO (1:72) car is quite close to that of an HO. The British cars are made that way because of the older challenges of making locomotives to scale with the technology available back when. My Bullied brake van, basically a coach, is nearly identical in actual size to my American coaches.
Another challenge here is that most of the bogies (trucks) are rigid, no springs, no movement, which can raise the devil on some track. When possible, I actually add weight to the actual bogies, as most are not see-through, anyway. Note: the stick-on weights don't stick. I CAREFULLY add a couple drops of superglue straddling the kingpin, and have found that to practically cure poor tracking by coaches 10" long with total weights of less than 3 ounces. It also reduces stringlining and keeps the c.g. low.
One thing that really hampers the tracking performance of coaches is most have the couplings located on the bogies. When going through tight curves and turnouts, especially when backing up, this tends to push the wheels off the rails. On older US HO scale coaches and cars with truck mounted couplers I usually body mount them but have not tried that with my UK stock, yet.
Thanks for this Larry - excellent thoughts on this subject. You know there are some fantastic "cab ride" videos here on TH-cam where someone has put a micro-camera on a flat car and run it round a layout. Many of them look fantastic and realistic until they get to a rough bit of track and then, because they lack any real weight vehicles tremble from side to side very fast in a very unrealistic way which spoils the whole effect. This is most noticeable usually on passenger cars. Adding weights stops that.
Hey Larry. I just want to thank you for making these informative videos, new guys to the hobby like myself Appreciate it very much.
Great Video. One suggestion is not to use steel or other ferrous products for weights because if you have under the track magnets it will interfere with the couplers causing premature uncoupling. I have substituted all steel weights with non ferrous metal weights and have changed wheel sets from steel to brass or any other non magnetic material. Cars track better and much fewer train separations.
Thank you Larry, I always enjoy these videos. Thanks for being so helpful 😊
Good subject Larry. Adding self adhesive weights like you have shown under the chassis in my kit built (Parkside, Ratio, Slaters Airfix) wagons makes a huge difference, in fact its the final part in assembling the kit. Then they run really well. An alternative is to add loads eg from Ten Commandments which are made from heavy plaster and do the same job as well as adding aesthetics.
Great video. You would be amazed at how often this issue comes up in the real world. For example, UP has/had a rule that you couldn't entrain any empty cars ahead of 4500 tons, for several factors. I am hoping to create a hump yard using your electromagnet ideas at the hump tower and let them roll into a bowl yard. Car weight is one big issue; the heavier the car the faster it will roll free and out the other end, and the lighter car might not clear the lead. Just like the real thing...
Very informative Larry,
Thanks a lot for this.
Nick,
Australia
I do Operations, and run on a traveling modular club. For the best coupling and running, I weight to 125% of NMRA. Try steel shot in open hoppers.
I mix a small packet of wall plaster bought cheaply from DIY stores and by trial and error put a little at the bottom of certain coal and other wagons then put "coal" or a similar "load" on top. It is hidden, sets solid, doesn`t move around and adds the required weight to the wagon. This gives locomotives real work to do and results in more realistic running.
Nice video, Larry. I feel that adding weight to underweight cars is very important. I do have one concern, though, and that has to do with using loads to add weight to cars. "Empties in" and "loads out" dictates that cars aren't always loaded. They should be empty until loaded with some product or material at an industry. ...Roy
I agree, and that is why I suggested putting unloaded cars towards the rear of the train. It is especially important with the coal hoppers and pulpracks since the loads can contribute a lot of weight and the empty car is usually very light.
Using Loads for weight raises the CoG on tall hoppers I’ve had tipping issues without weight in the Bottom Hold.
Another useful material weight, although expensive, is tungsten. It is almost twice as heavy as lead. It is most easily available as cubes and other shapes for the "Pinewood Derby" cars. But beware of getting "tungsten carbide" instead which is not as heavy, but is a little cheaper. You can get cubes in various sizes, down to as small as 1.94 mm from an industrial supplier called TungstenParts with a 1 lb minimum order. You can also get tungsten powder, but it is not as dense due to the "sphere packing equation" which means some of the volume of theoretically tiny balls bunched together is air space. GolfWorks tungsten powder (for weighting golf clubs) is a reliable source (beware of some products with lower prices advertised as tungsten powder, but are actually steel. If the price is to good to be true, it probably isn't really tungsten).
You can cast part of a car in metal to add weight and "hide the weight in plain sight". I had a goal of having empty drop door gondolas made from plastic kits get close to the NMRA recommended practice for good tracking. Part of that was a tungsten bar hidden in the center sill and small tungsten cubes hidden in voids in the draft gear area. But I cast the drop doors out of metal and made them about three times thicker also. The extra thickness is not noticeable even if you turn the car over and look at it. And the doors alone added about one ounce.
Great video and weighting information!
This video, like literally all of yours, is excellent. Thank you.
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts and any hard info you might know of, on the weight of locomotives. I can imagine there's a lot of subtlety involved in the dos and don'ts. I don't recall ever seeing in any of your videos something suggesting you pay much attention to measuring drawbar pull. Do you even do that? Every MR review mentions it, but I've never paid much attention. Should I?
Thanks again. bravo!
Gene-I don’t even own a rig for measuring it since it only refers to pulling power on a straight flat track. Add a grade or a curve and it is different. It really is only useful when comparing locos. With diesels if you need more pulling power just add another loco. If you run a a lot of steam then you could eventually develop a chart for how many cars each loco can pull in various sections of a railroad just like the prototype. In most cases train length is determined more by the shortest passing siding on the layout.
As far as weights on passenger cars depends on if you are going to have interiors in them . I never glue my cars together on either freight or on passenger cars, thereby ease of adding interiors in them. 1 problem is Athearn 72' cars is the weights interfere with interiors. In my train club we use mostly shot. Underneath them has plenty of room for shot. Interiors also get them pretty close weight wise.
Some cars are near impossible to weight, such as logging skeleton cars and disconnect logging cars. You can weight the logs but this puts the weight up high. I also try to get as much weight in my locomotives as possible. I have a lot of cheap tyco junk and have made them work fairly well. I put diesel running gear inside a tyco Chattanooga tender powered locomotive and put stick on weight everywhere there was space inside. It works quite well.
Thank you Larry. You covered some good stuff today.
Awesome information very useful to have for beginners in this awesome railroad hobby
Thanks for your video on this topic, Larry. Another reason not to over-weight your cars -- model trains don't have brakes. A train of heavy cars, descending a long or a steep grade, especially with free-rolling trucks, can overpower a locomotive and cause a runaway.
Run 3-4 Engine Consists. 🙂
thanks for the info , very useful , i think all mine are under weight a lot.
My rule of thumb is (I pretty sure it's an NMRA practice) : measure car, divide in 2, add 1 oz. 6" car divided by 2 = 3, add 1 = total car weight 4 oz.
Personally, I believe that the NMRA RP is still a little light. I generally use approximately 1 ounce above that RP. I believe that they will continue to track better through turnouts and up/down the grades. The additional weight doesn't seem to effect the pulling capacity of the locomotives, all of which retain original factory weight. Further, and, as you have stated/recommended - I, too, use metal wheelsets, primarily Intermountain, but with a smattering of Kadee, Proto 2000 and some othe "oddballs." I have a 4-turn helix that is approximately 2.74% grade and have not encountered problems with "overweighted" cars causng any derailments as the train is pulled up hill. Nor have I experienced any noticable/detectable/excessive wear on the axle points nor the sideframe bearing points.
FWIW
great info! I'll be making use of this as I develop my own N Scale RR.
Before a car goes on my layout, it gets 3 things: Kadee couplers (adjusted to the proper height), metal wheelsets, and weighted to the NMRA standard. I don't have too many issues with my rolling stock.
Awesome Larry, as usual. Is it Ok of I post your videos on my train club website?
I will give you credit of course. Thanks
What about larger scale cars? I know that my G gauge cars could use some more weight.
You can post links to them if you like.
Thanks Larry 👍✌️
Did I say this before? This is a Great video!
great info...i've used old penny's but never knew there was a formula for each cars length
Yes, I’ve seen that done too, along with large metal nuts, washers, and even small rocks!
I did that at one time. But no more, here in Canada 'coppers' were withdrawn from circulation a number of years back!
Great clinic on weighting cars Larry. This has been the best explanation to date that I have seen. The 1/4 ounce weights you use, would they be to wide for N scale? If so, can you suggest an alternative. Take care. Sean.
The ones I showed are 5/8” x 3/4” but you may be able to find thinner options by doing a search on eBay. You could also make a small mold with styrene strips and pour your own using lead/steel shot and PVA glue and then glue them in place in your models.
@@TheDCCGuy thank you Larry. I will have a look
Another option for adding weight might be lead tape that golfers use to modify their clubheads.
Thanks once again Larry, having an evening of catching up on your Videos, although I live in Southwest Britain I model both H0 North American and 0 Gauge British so I’ll stick to the NRMA recommendations. Great Video.
TKS FOR THAT DEMO AND ADVICE IT WAS WORTH IT. EVEN THRO I HAVE N SCALE.'
Deluxe Materials (a British company selling all manner of cements and other products to hobbyists) has something called "Liquid Gravity". it turns out this is just steel blasting shot. You can buy steel blasting shot in bulk even on Amazon in bags at least as small as 5 lbs. Or 50 lbs. if you want. It comes in different grit sizes and I think S-170 is about the same as "Liquid Gravity". S-70 is much finer and I found that if you mix 2 parts S-170 to 1 part S-70 you get about a 10% increase in density (the smaller grit fills in some of the space between the larger grit). You fix it by letting CA cement or epoxy or something soak into it. Be mindful that this is steel and magnetic so you don't want it loose around motors and magnets and such.
Have you done a video regarding body mounted couplers? BTW I am in N scale.
I have done several videos on installing KD couplers but I have not touched an N scale model in decades.
Thanks!@@TheDCCGuy
Thanks Larry, 🐾🚂.
Great videos. What would you recommend for overweight brass passenger cars. I have some that are substantially overweight. Paul
Put them up front or try to keep an even weight distribution in the whole train.
@@TheDCCGuy thanks. I appreciate your input.
If I may add .. if you have a passenger set, or any unit train - the best thing is that the cars weigh the same for a given length. I suspect if they are say 80% of the target weight, you don't have an issue that weight will impact.
Although table in NMRA RP-20.1 talks about scale, I strongly suspect that it’s actually related to gauge. Since OO scale uses the same track gauge as HO scale, I would think that you could just use the same rule as HO scale.
Yes, you might think that however the folks at McKinley Railway use about half the NMRA recommended weight for their wagons. His reasoning being that UK model locos can’t pull as much weight as US locos so he has to compensate. While I would agree for some locos such as the Oxford Rails Dean’s Goods and several Dapol steam locos where they had to provide traction tires to pull any wagons, the more recent Hornby Merchant Navy Class are great locos.
@@TheDCCGuy You did mention that in the video, but that comes across to me as being a compromise because of poor performing locomotives. It has nothing to do with point spacing and curve radiuses, which would be the primary factors in determining the ideal weight.
Remember that good things come to those who weight!
slow clap.
Just a question Larry . Where would you put weights in an empty intermodal stack container car?
That’s a tough one. If it has any hollows in the chassis then you could pour in lead bird shot followed with glue to add weight. I have done that with flats. These are cars that need to be placed at the rear of a train and would have a tendency to derail on curves.
@@TheDCCGuy Yes I guess that would be idea for sure. I will have to check Amazon for some lead bird shot. Thanks Larry
Something off here. 9 weights = 2.25 oz. The box car with the weight installed is 4 oz. That leaves 1.75 for the boxcar itself. My HO boxcar, which is the same size, weighs 3.0 oz. What's up with that?
Do the NMRA standards apply to heavy-duty cars with 6-8 axles or more? I have a 6-axle flat car and added enough weight to make it more than double the NMRA weight, to justify the extra axles. The original was significantly underweight compared to NMRA standards.
Don’t see why not, they are basically a weight to length ratio.
When I was a kid I was into BB guns so I used steel BB's to add weight to hopper and coal cars , my Dad also had a bunch of steel nuts on his work bench which also work on every other type. An easy formula to remember is HO = .5 oz per in, N = .25 oz per in
Lead, if not covered with paint, can be an irritant to the skin because the lead is more readily absorbed by skin. Use gloves or wash your hands/fingers after handling the lead. The irritation isn't immediate in some people, but almost instant (aching feeling) in others.
The handling of lead should be taken with caution. It should not be taken lightly.
Steel isn't as heavy per section of weight as lead, but doesn't pose any threat.
John
Lead is also a toxin that will accumulate in your system as your body can’t dispose of it.
Saludos. Pregunta.
Cómo se calcula el peso para las plataformas de 85ft? O los well cars?
Gracias!
The NMRA standard says assign 1 ounce for the car then add 1/2 ounce per inch of car length. The NMRA website has a table for,other scales. Look for NMRA RECOMMENDED PRACTICES RP-20.1 Car Weight.
I try to add weight in boxcars directly over the trucks, thinking that it might make the car track more stable. I notice that you added the weights in one long strip. Does it make any difference?
If I only need a few then I place them over the trucks as I showed in the boxcar with only two weights. In the other one I needed a lot more weight and laid them out in a row since stacking them over each truck would have raised the center of gravity which can lead to wobble or an unsteady car.
What about larger scale rolling stock? I know that my G gauge cars could use some more weight.
Check the NMRA website.
for a 5.5 inch box car, using your formula I get 3.75 ounce (2.75 ounces for the length plus 1 ounce ) ..How do you get 4 ounce... a little confused... thanks
I must have been using a slightly oversized car the day I made up that chart. In some cases if you are between even units it is easier to just round up, especially when using 1/4 oz weights.
For 34' to 52' cars, I like RP20.1 plus 1 ounce. For 54' to 72' cars, RP20.1 plus ½ ounce. For 74' to 89' cars, RP20.1 exactly. Coupling to one short car with needle-point IM wheels with KDs at slow speeds (1smph) is 'slightly' easier; coupling to two 40' cars with free-rolling IM wheels is just right - very easy to 'recreate' prototype mass when coupling up to another stationary mass - even though mass obviously does NOT scale down. Helices ideally should be designed with a greater than 36" radius (48" is better) and even slightly counter-elevated to help prevent stringlining when running longer trains (30 to 40 cars or more). Shorter trains less than 20 cars with all shorter cars should have no problems with stringlining on a helix with good track. Lastly, some freight cars and a few cabooses have a hydra-cushion extension at each end; it is important to measure and include these extensions as part of the car's or caboose's length and not just measure from corner to corner.
Thanks
nice.i didn't think you needed to add weight until now.
Atlas N Scale are Notoriously under weight. Getting good weights on new Athearn N Scale.
Do your how-to videos apply to N-Scale only or other scales?
The NMRA standards and recommended practices page on their website has recommended weights for all scales.
I noticed, it looks as though you measure from end of couplings then and not buffer to buffer?
I usually measure the actual length of the body, but this ain’t rocket science.
What type of scale do you use to weigh your rolling stock
I used the one shown in the photo and video-Ohaus but it is 30 years old. You can find a digital scale in most big box stores, Amazon, grocery stores.
Where can I find the website for these weight table
Try the NMRA website under standards and RPs.
Over recent yrs, a search of NMRA records has been conducted for documents of weighting tests and conclusions drawn from them. Nothing has been found. The NMRA weight recommendations are around 60 years old and are in bad need of updating. From dynamical tests done by various modelers, it would appear the NMRA weight recommendation formula for HO is fairly good except for really long cars. The NMRA recommendation for N-scale is flat out wrong. That recommendation specifies car weights that are at least 20% too light. Tracking in N-scale is very crucial to decent running as underweighted cars have the same string-lining problems as HO cars, but car bounce over frogs and the like is of much greater concern than it is with HO scale. In all scales, more exhaustive
dynamic tests show that the weighting curve for each scale is not linear as assumed by the NMRA. The optimal curve is "curved" (nonlinear) with the greatest change from a straight line occurring at both ends of the weight curve. These changes are not subtle either or should they be ignored. Anyone who advocates car weights less than the NMRA standard is out to lunch as their experience with cars tracking will be dismal. That includes your friend in the UK who apparently knows little about car/train dynamics and runs his consists at half weight.
Thanks, I’m sure the N scale folks will be interested in this.
What about N Scale - if you are modelling in N gauge?
The NMRA website has the N scale weights too.
What about the weight of locomotives? I model in "Finescale S."
Most loco models now are pretty hefty and have a large diescast chassis with a plastic shell so don’t need a extra weight even if you could find a place to add much of it. I used to cast lead slugs to install in my brass steam locos to give them more puling power and also installed lead plates in some Athearn, LifeLike, and other light diesels. But you have to be careful doing it as the axles and bearings may not be designed to take that extra weight. In some cases it is better to just run multiple units to handle the load.
@@TheDCCGuy Thank you. Some S Scale diesels seem kind of light weight to me. Once I tried increasing the weight of an "American Models" F unit by placing lead shot in the hollow fuel tank, and "securing" the shot with melted candle wax (so as to not be permanant). That was a mistake, but I cleaned it out later. "S Helper Service" F units seem about right and are noticeably heavier than American Models diesels. I was just wondering if you knew of some kind of standard or algorithm for the weight of locos. The several S scale steam locos that I have (mostly brass) seem "heavy enough," though a small ten-wheeler I have seems a bit light. I have just one non-brass steamer, and it is high quality diecast, and quite heavy, even for a 4-8-4, and tracks very well. But all this for locos is so far all just guess work. The NMRA weight standards for cars work pretty well. I was wondering . . .
Interestingly I get my MicroEngineering track and turnouts from my friend Larry Morton owner of Tomalco Track. He is primarily an S scale dealer but since he uses ME rails for his products he can also get me HO scale stuff at a very good price. He was just here on saturday to deliver another batch of track.
@@TheDCCGuy Small world! Plese give him my should out for "Finescale S." He is a hero for us S gaugers. I have a section or two of Tomalco S flex track, however, so far I have laid all my own track in S standard gauge and Sn3. Code 70 for Sn3, and code 100 and 83 for standard gauge, with a smattering of code 70 for standard gauge. I mill my own ties out of just plain walnut. I mill the walnut to whatever size I need. I needs no stain, and comes out as medium-weathered wood all by itself. I"m also making a trestle out of the unstained walnut. I wish I could post photos here, but then we'd turn YT into Facebook.
How do you apply this to o gauge/scale cars
If you go to the NMRA Standards and RP page on their website they provide recommendations for various scales. Or just do a Google search.
Im not a member of the website can u just tell me
You don’t have to be a member to view their website and Google searches are free. I just don’t have time to do it for you.
Does the power car need to have weight added?
Do you mean the locomotive?
@@TheDCCGuy yes
Most modern locos are heavily weighted already but at one time I can remember adding lead slugs to Athearn diesels and brass steamers.
@@TheDCCGuy I thought so. Just want confirmation. I just got into the hobby and I'm finding out that there is a lot more to it than just running the trains. Thx for your video(s).
BTW, if you do try to add weight in the form of lead or other material be careful. You need to balance the weight distribution so it is centered over the driving wheels and also the supporting wheels (in the case of steamers). Otherwise it can actually lift them off the rails and lose traction.
I don't weight mine. If they will roll a few feet with a slight push then they are right
I really like this video, why do I click "all" though?
At the time this video was uploaded TH-cam would send emails to subscribers when a new video was released. They no longer do that but they do put a blue dot in your list of subscriptions and include the channel listing in you “new videos” reminder.
Nice video. I just wish all rolling stock should be mandated to be NMRA compliant for weight.
But think about the permanent loads you can add. Those would push it overweight!
saludos amigo hermoso tren quiero conseguir una maquina cuantos dolares cuesta
Depende.....entre de US$ 100 a $US2000.
Harbor Freight has a pack of 48 1/4 oz weights for ~$10, just like the ones Larry used.
I just got the same with Free Shipping for $9.99. USA vendor. 😎
That's what I use as well, along with their 1/2 oz weights.
I believe there is a math error for the 40 ft. (5 1/2") long car. Should be 3 3/4 oz., not 4 oz.
You show a pre-weighted tank car but you don't say how to add weighted to a non-weighted tank car! So how do you add weight to a tank car?
Some have a screw through the bottom that holds the car together. Remove the screw, lift the top section and add your weight. If the car cannot be taken apart then drill a hole in the bottom, pour in some lead birdshot or BBs, then pour in some PVA glue, plug the hole, let it dry in the upright position before returning to the track.
I like buck shot seem little more Practical , I have spine car ,for Trailers on flat car , 53 well car for Containers all usa railroad use ho scale .
Another easily available option is BB’s. These now seem to be copper or zinc coated steel shot and are fairly heavy but the new shot made as a lead shot replacement may be more affordable.
I would suggest you be careful using lead unless it is protected from little hands. My grandsons handle all my trains A LOT.
I use stick-on tire weights made of steel or graphite putty.
I use nuts bought by the pound at a home improvement or hardware store. less expensive.
I use steel BB’s inside covered Hoppers. Test weigh then test run. Gotta Glue in or chase BB’s if car falls over.
Do I get a free subscription for being first to mention the Allegheny Road prop used off the top...? :>)
You can buy something called liquid lead. It is very fine fake lead shot.
you'd think manufacturers would adhere to NRMA standard.
Some do now. For example the little tank car came ready to run with the correct weight.
My military train's getting to heavy for my bachmann gp38-2. It be to long.
Add another GP38-2 just like the railroads do.
@@TheDCCGuy I've been thinking about it. I've gotten an Athearn sd60 I want to convert to dcc but money is an issue for me at the moment.
It's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.
I'll subscribe if your videos worthwhile but I'm not going to subscribe before I ever. It will never be a good thing if I have to take my stars