As a native swedish speaker, I have to disagree about your view on the meaning of trolldom. I would say its a far better match to ”sorcery” or folk magic than witchcraft. It does not carry negative connotations today, rather it sparks a feeling of great mystery and a close connection to the mysteriuous forces of nature. It is possible that it carried negative connotations during the time of christianization, because of course why wouldn’t it, they were trying to vilify all folk magic and i assume trolldom was the generally used term for it back then. Fjolkyngi is to me a completely unknown word, and seems like it is far more archaic and/or icelandic. I have no relation to the word, it doesn’t speak to me. Also the idea of trolldom being related to having bad blood is something i have never heard before and intuitively doesn’t sound correct. It is true that the creature ”troll” was often seen as bad in folk tales etc (a later development perhaps?), but in honesty there is no close connection between the creature troll and the words trolldom or trollkunnig (person knowledgeable of magic) or trollkarl (wizard, the most generic and neutral word for it in swedish, harry potter is a trollkarl, stage magicians are trollkarlar, etc). In those cases the ”troll”prefix is related to the essence of magic. Just my two cents. 😊
I think thats what he is saying tho 'trolls' were never trolls they were humans and a troll i guess was a posseser or doer of magic arts realative of instinct that wasnt a negative connotation? Not to sure tho but thts what i got from this video.
In Iceland, Trolldómur has pretty negative connotations. Trolls in Iceland are rarely seen as benevolent beings, rather causing harm and cursing humans. A trollkarl in Iceland, especially late medieval times was not a good thing. Interesting how the meanings got different connotations across the nordic countries. Fjöllkynngi is a word we use today but rarely, it has changed a tad. Fjölkunnugur (male) and fjölkunnung (female) and its sort of lost its magical connotations in modern-day, just simply meaning 'Knower of many things'
I think that in contemporary Swedish ”Trolldom” has taken on a rather ”general” meaning. Magic in any way , shape and form ( as stated above, even illusionists, who claim no ”actual” supernatural magic are still refererred to as ”Trollkarl” at times ). It has also been used so much in fairy tales, stage magic etc that i would say, as much as the word could denote the mysterious, it is almost ”trivialized” at the same time. Almost so that you need a distinguisher between a ”lighter” use of the word and actual esoteric magic. A bit like Crowley’s spelling Magick with a ”ck” ( that has kabbalistic reasons too though ). It could even be used in an almost endearing way, just like ”witchcraft,magic,charm” etc. ”I make my coffee exactly like you, yet yours is so much better, pure trolldom!” That also goes for the verb ”trolla”. Having said that i have heard ceremonial magicians use the word ”trolla” too. I think the negative connotations have been lost through the years and as ”trollkärring” or ”trolldom” would have evoked ( pun intended ) pictures of witches sabbaths with the devil, harmed cattle etc in the 1600’s it has become more of a general term. Folk magic practitioners and healers have had many terms too even in the last few centuries, some with the word ”troll” in them like: ”trollkunnig ( any gender), trollkarl (male) trollkvinna/trollkona ( female), but also the usual terms like ”klok gubbe (wise older man) , klok gumma ( wise older woman) , blod stämmare ( blood stopper, a type of healer), kunnig ( cunning), lövgubbe, lövgumma ( ”löv” means ”leaf”. Not sure why? might it have something to do with herbs?). There might be nuances between Nordic languages, or even dialects within them today. But in modern Swedish i would say ”trollkonst” (literally ”magical arts”) is a general term for magic but like many words its ”charge” have changed through time and perhaps place.
The opening was hysterical! So that was very interesting and useful information. I think I’m going back later to make notes. Since my parents are not from America and speak different languages I understand the sometimes subtle nuisances of language translation and how some things can’t be translated all the way unless you’re from that culture or deeply know the language. Hope everyone has a good day especially Arith 😊
Arith Härger I’m not sure where else I can comment since I don’t use twitter or Facebook anymore but I just want to say your art work is very interesting. There’s two pieces I like very much. Not that I’m trying to figure u out but I think I understand the two pieces. Is there a place to comment on your art?
@@sevenis9712 I keep it on Society6 and Deviantart, as well as Facebook Page. Aside from those places, I don't have my art anywhere else. And I think you can only comment on Facebook page :s
I'd suggest that in some ways, perhaps, Fjölkyngi is to Magic what Alchemy is to Science - and perhaps an alchemist or "renaissance man" of the Norse era would be labeled Fjölkunnugr. Feel free to question that comparison and argue against it.
Another outstanding video and you accurately brought out the very real issues of translations of languages, plus how to connected words used for one definition, do not necessarily mean the same thing!
One observation about "troll": "From Norwegian or Swedish troll or Danish trold, from Old Norse trǫll (“witch, mage, conjurer”) (compare Icelandic tröll), related to Middle High German trolle (“spook, wraith, monster, ogre”). From Proto-Germanic *truzlą (“a supernatural being; demon; fiend; giant; monster”). Norwegian fortrylle (“to bewitch”), Norwegian and Danish trylle (“to conjure”) and Swedish trolla (“to conjure”). Doublet of droll." In iceladic we have trylla: enchant, to turno into a troll. -Dómr is a suffix that is found in a lot of words with the sense of -hood or even -head in some cases (like guðdómr)...
Thank you for this information it has water clarity to some of my more favourite symbols and tokens such as the trolls Cross and has brought a new and exciting level of interest to me at least so again thank you
Folklore folk work, working as folk, with nature and crafts to heal, home maker; seams like a better descriptive word. Much knowledge. Wise Witch man or woman.
@@tribelongboarding8206 Yes, it is protective symbol, like pentagram. I'm just wandering if old Scandinavian sorcerer use it, not only to protect themself but also showcase that she or him is a practitioner of trolldomr.
Troll simply means supernatural or magic, so all supernatural creatures was trolls, it is more romantizised later stories that made trolls into huge, hulking beings. So basically troll just means well supernatural really is the best word for it. Just like all supernatural creatures was vetter, this simply means creature, it streight up means creature so it was not a spesific creature.
Native swede here. A minor detail but none the less.. we actually never say trollman. We use the word trollkarl. Meaning wizard. It is roughly the same thing as trollman though. But Karl is a more manly word for man. A Karl is a masculine, often strong man. Can even be used as a compliment. But trollkarl is the word we use for wizard of sorcerer
@@lk1590 I have no idea, I'm afraid. That word is too ancient to make any sense to my modern ears. I have never heard it before. Arith knows much more about old norse than I do :-)
I learned in my required anthro course than many in the field consider sorcery to be practitioners of socially accepted forms of Magic, while witchcraft emphasizes the taboo
If I'm not mistaken. Doesn't "Gand" or " Gander" mean a general knowledge of magic or just magic in general? I know it also mean magic staff or wand Tolkien named gandalf after that. Gand or Gandr meaning the above while alf means elf. Meaning his name translates to magic elf. I could be wrong though... Would love input on this!
Hi, Arith! I guess the word Jotun is based on the same root as the modern English "to eat". Eventually a Jotun is an Eater with some magic powers. What a possible origin of these creatures could be, do you think? Homo sapiens neanderthalensis?
I have find Trying to comprehend the linguistics and the cultural references around these two words very obtuse and the presentation of them not very effective just my humble opinion
Years ago I thought about that actually due to physical features, but that's because we think of them as the medieval troll the church created - a strange ugly creature. The troll in pagan times was any magical creature/spiritual entity of nature. Not the same as an elf, but more like a faery-like being.
As a native swedish speaker, I have to disagree about your view on the meaning of trolldom. I would say its a far better match to ”sorcery” or folk magic than witchcraft. It does not carry negative connotations today, rather it sparks a feeling of great mystery and a close connection to the mysteriuous forces of nature. It is possible that it carried negative connotations during the time of christianization, because of course why wouldn’t it, they were trying to vilify all folk magic and i assume trolldom was the generally used term for it back then. Fjolkyngi is to me a completely unknown word, and seems like it is far more archaic and/or icelandic. I have no relation to the word, it doesn’t speak to me. Also the idea of trolldom being related to having bad blood is something i have never heard before and intuitively doesn’t sound correct. It is true that the creature ”troll” was often seen as bad in folk tales etc (a later development perhaps?), but in honesty there is no close connection between the creature troll and the words trolldom or trollkunnig (person knowledgeable of magic) or trollkarl (wizard, the most generic and neutral word for it in swedish, harry potter is a trollkarl, stage magicians are trollkarlar, etc). In those cases the ”troll”prefix is related to the essence of magic. Just my two cents. 😊
I think thats what he is saying tho 'trolls' were never trolls they were humans and a troll i guess was a posseser or doer of magic arts realative of instinct that wasnt a negative connotation? Not to sure tho but thts what i got from this video.
In Iceland, Trolldómur has pretty negative connotations. Trolls in Iceland are rarely seen as benevolent beings, rather causing harm and cursing humans. A trollkarl in Iceland, especially late medieval times was not a good thing. Interesting how the meanings got different connotations across the nordic countries. Fjöllkynngi is a word we use today but rarely, it has changed a tad. Fjölkunnugur (male) and fjölkunnung (female) and its sort of lost its magical connotations in modern-day, just simply meaning 'Knower of many things'
I think that in contemporary Swedish ”Trolldom” has taken on a rather ”general” meaning.
Magic in any way , shape and form ( as stated above, even illusionists, who claim no ”actual” supernatural magic are still
refererred to as ”Trollkarl” at times ).
It has also been used so much in fairy tales, stage magic etc that i would say, as much as the word could denote the mysterious,
it is almost ”trivialized” at the same time. Almost so that you need a distinguisher between a ”lighter” use of the word and actual esoteric
magic. A bit like Crowley’s spelling Magick with a ”ck” ( that has kabbalistic reasons too though ).
It could even be used in an almost endearing way, just like ”witchcraft,magic,charm” etc.
”I make my coffee exactly like you, yet yours is so much better, pure trolldom!”
That also goes for the verb ”trolla”.
Having said that i have heard ceremonial magicians use the word ”trolla” too.
I think the negative connotations have been lost through the years and as ”trollkärring” or ”trolldom” would have evoked ( pun intended )
pictures of witches sabbaths with the devil, harmed cattle etc in the 1600’s it has become more of a general term.
Folk magic practitioners and healers have had many terms too even in the last few centuries, some with the word ”troll” in them
like: ”trollkunnig ( any gender), trollkarl (male) trollkvinna/trollkona ( female), but also the usual terms like ”klok gubbe (wise older man) , klok gumma ( wise older woman) , blod stämmare ( blood stopper, a type of healer), kunnig ( cunning), lövgubbe, lövgumma ( ”löv” means ”leaf”. Not sure why?
might it have something to do with herbs?).
There might be nuances between Nordic languages, or even dialects within them today.
But in modern Swedish i would say ”trollkonst” (literally ”magical arts”) is a general term for magic
but like many words its ”charge” have changed through time and perhaps place.
I love going back and watching these old videos !!
Swede here! Thanks for making your videos! :D ♡♡ they bring me a lot of joy!
Great to know that! :D
Good to see Mr Thorstein again, been missing him
My laptop starting vibrating and I was like wtf who's calling my laptop how do I even answer it
He’s back!! 😂 glad too see him again!
Must invite him more often :p
The opening was hysterical! So that was very interesting and useful information. I think I’m going back later to make notes. Since my parents are not from America and speak different languages I understand the sometimes subtle nuisances of language translation and how some things can’t be translated all the way unless you’re from that culture or deeply know the language. Hope everyone has a good day especially Arith 😊
Thank you very much! Have a wonderful day as well! :D
Arith Härger I’m not sure where else I can comment since I don’t use twitter or Facebook anymore but I just want to say your art work is very interesting. There’s two pieces I like very much. Not that I’m trying to figure u out but I think I understand the two pieces. Is there a place to comment on your art?
@@sevenis9712 I keep it on Society6 and Deviantart, as well as Facebook Page. Aside from those places, I don't have my art anywhere else. And I think you can only comment on Facebook page :s
Loved this. Keep up the wonderful scholarly work.
Fjölkyngi is a wonderful word! I'd never heard it before, only trolldom. Thank you for sharing your knowledge 😊
Thank you for watching ^^
It was good to see Mr. Thorstein again. Always look forward to your vids.
He wants to appear more often but always ends up breaking something or causing mayhem :p
@@ArithHärger He must be a great friend of Loki then :D
I'd suggest that in some ways, perhaps, Fjölkyngi is to Magic what Alchemy is to Science - and perhaps an alchemist or "renaissance man" of the Norse era would be labeled Fjölkunnugr. Feel free to question that comparison and argue against it.
Muito esclarecedor. Excelente vídeo, como sempre.
Obrigado!
ora essa, eu é que agradeço ^^
Seus videos são fantásticos! Vocâ explica com perfeição o assunto
Thanks again for the information. As always very appreciated.
thank you for watching :)
Another outstanding video and you accurately brought out the very real issues of translations of languages, plus how to connected words used for one definition, do not necessarily mean the same thing!
One observation about "troll":
"From Norwegian or Swedish troll or Danish trold, from Old Norse trǫll (“witch, mage, conjurer”) (compare Icelandic tröll), related to Middle High German trolle (“spook, wraith, monster, ogre”). From Proto-Germanic *truzlą (“a supernatural being; demon; fiend; giant; monster”). Norwegian fortrylle (“to bewitch”), Norwegian and Danish trylle (“to conjure”) and Swedish trolla (“to conjure”). Doublet of droll."
In iceladic we have trylla: enchant, to turno into a troll.
-Dómr is a suffix that is found in a lot of words with the sense of -hood or even -head in some cases (like guðdómr)...
Happy New Year Arith
You're a hoot Arith.
I've been call worse :p
I think a better English word to use for Fjölkyngi is Wizardry which etymologically derives from Wiz-ard or Wise-person.
Arith,love it when you dress up,very funny,do a whole video like that.Cheers !!!
How does Jötnar relate to Elf or álfar assuming they are both Trolls, or magical beings?
Thank you for this information it has water clarity to some of my more favourite symbols and tokens such as the trolls Cross and has brought a new and exciting level of interest to me at least so again thank you
"who's calling me, i have no friend" - i died on the spot XD
very interesting ! I now understand the terms used , thank you :)
You should turn up the music volume a little
Got confused by the buzzing...haha. good old Mr T
I have never heard of the word ' fjolkyngi. Interesting!. Now I'm saying it loud, in order to pronounce it😄💜 thanks
Indeed use it often and loudly hehe. Let them all know it! :D
Does "Fjolkyngi" have any relationship to the term cunning folk?
"There's a good Dane" I'm laughing and a bit offended xD (as always great video👍)
Famous Wild Magic Weilder? Is that pretty close?
Mr T so good to see you again but beware that young man and his magic telling bone!
Mr. T is worse than me. It rhymes, so it's true :p
Folklore folk work, working as folk, with nature and crafts to heal, home maker; seams like a better descriptive word.
Much knowledge. Wise Witch man or woman.
Do you already have all of these outfits and accessories or do you go out and buy them?
Had to ask 😊
I have them. Everything about thorstein was for a party 10years ago. The hat I got in scotland 2 years ago :p
Now I known what is the meaning of troll. But what about symbolism of Trollcross ?. Thank you for video.
trollcross or "trollkors" I believe is a symbol to ward off trolls and related magic. I am not sure though.
@@tribelongboarding8206 Yes, it is protective symbol, like pentagram. I'm just wandering if old Scandinavian sorcerer use it, not only to protect themself but also showcase that she or him is a practitioner of trolldomr.
Troll simply means supernatural or magic, so all supernatural creatures was trolls, it is more romantizised later stories that made trolls into huge, hulking beings. So basically troll just means well supernatural really is the best word for it. Just like all supernatural creatures was vetter, this simply means creature, it streight up means creature so it was not a spesific creature.
Native swede here. A minor detail but none the less.. we actually never say trollman. We use the word trollkarl. Meaning wizard. It is roughly the same thing as trollman though. But Karl is a more manly word for man. A Karl is a masculine, often strong man. Can even be used as a compliment. But trollkarl is the word we use for wizard of sorcerer
PineCone what about vardlokkr? How does that differ or not from trollkarl or troll man? Would it better translate as conjurer?
@@lk1590 I have no idea, I'm afraid. That word is too ancient to make any sense to my modern ears. I have never heard it before. Arith knows much more about old norse than I do :-)
I loved your comment. "Why say magic guy, when you can say magic STUD?"
Wizardry vs Sorcery ?
Folk Magic vs Sorcery
As the good man said, natural magic.... Like time and tides, eroding rock into sand, to pour into our hour glass....
I learned in my required anthro course than many in the field consider sorcery to be practitioners of socially accepted forms of Magic, while witchcraft emphasizes the taboo
If I'm not mistaken. Doesn't "Gand" or " Gander" mean a general knowledge of magic or just magic in general? I know it also mean magic staff or wand
Tolkien named gandalf after that. Gand or Gandr meaning the above while alf means elf. Meaning his name translates to magic elf. I could be wrong though... Would love input on this!
Would you say, Fjolkyngi means one who has the knowledge ability to make things right?
He finally stopped 'wrestling' that bear!
One of the funniest intros
Thorstein rocks
Hi, Arith! I guess the word Jotun is based on the same root as the modern English "to eat". Eventually a Jotun is an Eater with some magic powers. What a possible origin of these creatures could be, do you think? Homo sapiens neanderthalensis?
I think that's too great of an extrapolation on both points
@@approachinggnosis4613 The Eater is from here - www.etymonline.com/word/ettin?ref=etymonline_crossreference
I insist: put subtitles in Spanish. Even with an automatic translator :-(
I'm sure that a Spanish speaker would have to help make the subtitles. Perhaps you can translate, and he can put in the video?
@@MissKellyBean I do not speak English. I only use a translator for these things. I appreciate your sterile comment
I have find Trying to comprehend the linguistics and the cultural references around these two words very obtuse and the presentation of them not very effective just my humble opinion
Does anyone else theorize that "trolls" were Neanderthals, or their descendants?
Years ago I thought about that actually due to physical features, but that's because we think of them as the medieval troll the church created - a strange ugly creature. The troll in pagan times was any magical creature/spiritual entity of nature. Not the same as an elf, but more like a faery-like being.