I'm curious: so far, do you guys prefer Raiden Chevreuse teams *with Bennett* or without Bennett? 🤔 Edit: something I wish I could have made more clear in my video: the thing is raiden national and chevreuse overload are good for casual players, good in sheets, QoL, and whilst still having speedrun potential so its not even like we are comparing super hardcore only teams vs super casual friendly team (double hydro). these other teams are still pretty casual friendly, no?
i have a vid idea, you could talk about this whole "sheets do not tell the full story" situation for the many teams that we have in genshin, not specifying any teams in general but more about how sheets dont show the value of certain characteristics of a team and what the team can or cannot do.
You might enjoy their previous videos on Nilou teams, with one of the major points being that they are very difficult to sheet so people don't rate them properly.
That isnt why Nilou isnt rated high lol.@@phoenixlau She's borderline op at low cost casual play, its just people don't actually test her without being disingenuous af, dislike her weird playstyle, and call her shit and expensive.
WOW this is incredible, you actually walk through everything and answer all our actual questions - I've watched so many vids on Raiden (I already have Yae, Cyno, Keqing) and it just feels like the same talking points over and over - you actually show subtle differences and IRL vs spreadsheet. Absolutely brilliant!
@@jamiekb9v Thanks M8! The point you made about evenly spread dmg teams vs hypercarry and how that impacts how important dmg increase in artifacts/weapons is such a new thing to me (playing less than a year) - so going deeper into that would be incredible with examples!
I imagine the Furina team is much better at lower investment, eg. without any constellations on any character. Xiangling and Xingqiu’s constellations are really carrying the national team, as are Sara’s cons in the hyper team. A C6 4* takes a similar amount of wishes on average to a C2 5*, they shouldn’t be taken for granted.
really love how you actually take into account practical advantages/disadvantages and take for exemple actual situations that often happen like the enemy waves debuff problem unlike spreadsheets would love to see more
I can totally see C0 Furina being overhyped when it comes to the hardcore side of things. Her dps is spread evenly over 20-30 seconds, no, in fact both her dps and utility are backloaded with the real ramp up happening 10-15 seconds into the rotation, which is completly counterproductive in an environment where the first 10 seconds are critical.
I'm curious what your setup is to reach 300 stacks in 4 seconds starting from 100% hp on all 4 characters at C0. Even with Neuvillette I'm pretty sure that's not possible.@@CelVini
@@F_Print well, yes is impossible on the first rotation, but on the second rotation forward we can achieve good results, its worth having a worst first rotation
That's the thing tho, there's often not a second rotation in hardcore content, which is what I'm commenting on right now. C1 or C2 Furina does fine there because she can frontload her stacks, but C0 falls off pretty hard.@@CelVini
@@F_Print nah, I got the point, but 98% of the playerbase does atleast 2 rotations on Abyss. There isen't worth be thaaaat optimal on the tips that affect so few
TBH, one reason 芙影夜景, which is the Furina Raiden Yelan Jean team is as popular as it is is because of it's ability to clear the abyss bacm during the concerated beast era with only Raiden Yelan Jean and one flex slot. It's very popular, at least among those who watched 懂哥 back in the days and even now. One reason it's liked is because of it's ability to easily counter mobile enemies. Raiden can easily clear near enemies, while Yelan can clear enemies far away, while jean can provide heal and cleanse, something the other healers like Bennett don't.
One thing to be pointed out about Raiden for more casual players is her versatility because of her energy regen mechanic. For example last abyss I was having a hard time getting past Coppelia with Raiden, because she would kill Raiden even through Bennett or Jean's healing. Well I played Raiden, Bennett, Jean and Furina and it was a breeze. While it wasn't 'optimal', I still cleared it in a minute. None of the other DPS's can dream of pulling of such rainbow element teams, or take out crucial members to adjust to the current abyss (except maybe Neuvilette cuz yeah).
yep I mention something similar in the driver section. whilst she isn't necessarily stronger than sucrose or kazuha in national, for the average player she is much easier with a high skill floor!
@@s-zs7nn Yea, I thought that was a strange thing to point out lol. Outside of characters that really want specific reactions like Ayaka in freeze (And honestly even she can run this team if you just modify her build), basically everyone can run this team given you have adequate builds 😆
TGS mentioned a pretty good way of guaranteeing the Electro swirl on Raiden’s Double Hydro Team by 100%, and it’s instead of using Raiden’s Skill at the very early of her team combo; it rather to use it right before using Jean’s skill. It’s pretty good!
Oh that makes sense but you do lose uptime on when Vv. It last for 10s after the onfield anemo swirls, and since the rotate is now raiden jean, you will spend like 3-4 of the 10s on furina and yelan which is problematic imo. Correct me if my assessment of the rotation is wrong. D
@@putent9623 I think they mean Furina > Yelan > Raiden E > Jean, as opposed to having Raiden's Skill being the first thing you do. You lose out on a few particles at the start but it's better for guaranteeing an Electro Swirl whilst keeping VV uptime for Raiden and the Hydros when they start doing more damage.
Thank you Jamie for perfectly and succinctly illustrating in one example why I am totally over other TCs showcasing carries with Furina as some kinda Renaissance for their place in the meta. Yes, Furina is a little monster -- but she's got limitations when it comes to padding out a carry play style -- and too many other content creators can't leave their spreadsheets long enough to give a nuanced view on it -- in use.
Your videos are always very informative, and its nice to see a different point of view, from someone that actively doing speedruns and not only sitting in front of an excel sheet. Both has its value, but its harder to find videos from the practical side of things. Thank you!
Pulled c0 Raiden this banner, and honestly while her national team is probably not the best variation, it's the first national that I actually enjoy playing. Thanks for the FAQ.
Furina teams have long set up times: you put your finger on a feeling I couldn't quite put into words. Don't get me wrong, I've been quite enjoying playing Furina, especially in the previous Abyss stomping on pyro shields and such. But I wonder how she would fare against upcoming matchups like Wenut, where you want your team to be able to fire off all their damage inside a very small window.
I covered it in my recent single target cup video, but even neuvillette players will sometimes prefer childe instead of furina since you don't even need to switch to him to get value. whereas furina's long setups can balance out her ramping buffs. and even a few casual players still prefer childe for since not needing to setup is pretty comfy
I think you don’t understand the wenut, long setup times are detrimental for extremely early dps checks, like the PMA’s 9:47 early trigger. For the wenut, it does a few attacks, then enters it’s damage window, so long setup times are better since you setup before the wenut’s window, then blast it during the window. For instance, you can furina burst -> zhongli -> kazuha before the wenut even generates its orbs, then the entire damage window can be used by neuvillette.
I think there's an important consideration to make about the dissonance between calcs and speedruns, a consideration that I think should be outlined more in videos like this otherwise there's the risk to fracture the playerbase creating preconceptions and hurting open minded confrontations, this is even more important when the video kinda "debunks" results from calculations and spreadsheets. You often tend to use the word "theory" when addressing calcs, like "in theory" or "theoretical calculations", which isn't wrong since those are calcs so they aren't experimental results, but your communication promotes often and even in this video the idea that calculations inherently have huge fallacies that keep them from accurately gauging characters and teams in practice. While this is partially true for many spreadsheets that go around so what you do with your channel is really precious for the English speaking community, calculations actually can go much further than that and the problem with them is mostly the way they are received and communicated rather than themselves. For example around 10:00 you address the effectiveness of vertical investment which calcs "don't show", but it's not like they can't, it's just that the spreadsheets and the calculations circulating around are mostly tailored towards players with low/mediocre and a more horizontal investment rather than high and vertical, but calculations referencing a different level and type of investment will show something else instead: the problem doesn't lie in "spreadsheets" themselves, but in the way they are communicated, shared and received by the playerbase. Calculations CAN show frontload, it's just more difficult to do and since its value changes a lot depending on the scenario (like it is with speedruns) TCers tend to stick to more "fixed" and "objective" parameters like pure dps over an extended period of time when looking at different characters and teams "in a vacuum". Those results aren't bad nor good: they are just data, those numbers have a context and when communicated to peoplesuch content should be make explicit. Even if you do, of course people will still misunderstand, but that's on the people, not on who did those calcs trying to adhere to these or those parameters, as long as the calcs are coherent with those explicit parameters. This was a long comment just to say that many viewers will wrongly receive the message "calcs bad", while it should be more like "calcs misunderstood". They are a tool, they can be made in different ways and with different assumptions, but how you use them it's what actually matters. You are doing a great job at clarifying misconceptions that also come from people looking at and even spreading and communicating calcs the wrong way, but you should make clearer this last aspect: those specific calcs aren't wrong, they just describe something that in given scenarios doesn't apply. For example, against a Geo Vishap instead of PMA in Abyss I guess things would severely change, depending on how exactly the frontload spikes line up for different teams at different levels of investment, and if we have new events with enemies with ten or dozens of times the current HP or new combat modes similar to that then that's another case where those spreadsheets would adhere more to practical scenarios. Other than that, insightful video as always
Hyper invested speedruns have similar issues in that its not really applicable to normal accounts. If your team needs to 1 rotate or it falls apart then its not recommendable to people who didnt farm insane artifacts.
@@luminous3558 Every account can speedrun. It's the fastest way to clear with what you have in front of you. I have done speedruns with craftable/F2P weapons with level 80 characters and no crowns. From my experience the teams and rotations you would use can differ quite greatly from what sheets recommend on any account. Not always but very often
it doesn't matter much if the new team doesn't reach 9:47 timer, it's still better than going to the next chamber with no burst like 6:19 here. Not everyone's speedrunning, some just wants a comfortable clear. Because the new team has multiple characters doing damage and it doesn't focus only on one character doing all the dmg, even if your Raiden doesn't have the burst, Yelan and Furina can still do dmg. That's the comfort people are talking about.
the pma chamber was just one example, but double hydro will still be weaker for other chambers (tulpa for obvious reasons), as well as the previous 4.2 abyss which was entirely single target. there is also the new raiden-chevreuse overload teams if you want multiple damage dealers with comfort utility, or even hyperbloom.
@@jamiekb9v my point exactly. I am not arguing Raiden double hydro is the best team or anything, it has reasons why it's popular. From a speedrunner perspective, the team might have problems like not meeting dmg threshold or getting good artifacts for one character only improves a portion of team dps. It's more popular between normal players because it's plug and play and works well. Yelan, Furina and Xingqiu are flexible characters that you can use in almost every team so investing in them is not a bad thing for any account unlike Sara and Chevreuse. If you already have Yelan, Furina and Xingqiu built, you can just slot them in and get a similar result to those specialized teams.
I get what you’re trying to say but you may be missing the mark here. He’s missing burst because his team over performed by killing the boss before raiden could regenerate burst for team. that’s just a raiden problem. The furina team would have the exact same problem if it cleared a boss before raiden used her full burst. Also, in practice, raiden hyper carry gets her burst back easier thanks to electro resonance and Sara battery. So your raiden feels even worse to battery in the furina team.
@@cadeemmusgrove7791 the difference is if the pma is down like that, you don't necessarily have to use Raiden's burst. Yelan and Furina can finish it easily. You have to use Raiden burst in the hyper team otherwise where is the dmg? Also the new team doesn't have tight rotation and doesn't need to care about Raiden missing crit on the initial slash, you can just press the buttons and clear the abyss.
I feel like only looking at high level play can lead to making somewhat silly statements. Raiden double hydro isn't a speedrun team, but it's by no means a "spreadsheet" team. It was her most used team in the previous abyss by a large margin. Even now it's only slightly used less than hyper and that's mostly due to Tupla. It's a team with flaws, like all her other teams. Hyper has grouping but honestly just sucks if you don't have C6 sara and it's still pretty bad in multi wave even when you do. Frontload vs sustain is a matter of investment. Frontload becomes more impactful when you are already invested enough to nearly 1 cycle abyss chambers. Frontloaded teams almost exclusively do less dps, so if you don't have the investment to nearly delete abyss chambers, they often perform horrible. Another thing that really needs to be talked about with Raiden hyper is just how high the bar for entry is. Raiden is extremely stat hungry character. Hitting a consistent crit rate on Raiden takes significantly higher artifact investment than any other dps in the game. She is the lone character without a CR weapon or accession stat, while also having high ER reqs. My Raiden is 74/147 for a total of 236 CV. That's an incredibly amount of investment for bottom of the barrel CR. The best way to play Raiden is to play teams that don't depend on her damage too much, commit to artifact hell or accept you'll have to reset to often for Crit rng. I don't even use my C3R1 Raiden for speedruns anymore, it takes significantly longer than any other dps at the same investment to get a good run.
are you sure? i'm pretty sure actually raiden national was her most used team by quite a large margin in 4.2. and again in this abyss (but for obvious benefits due to tulpa) (source yshelper 130k sample size) but correct me if I am wrong
@@jamiekb9v You're right, the sample I pulled from was smaller. Yshelper has 11% vs 9.9% with 11 being Rational. I don't know how to view past data for a specific unit, so that's the overall team usage rate.
@@jamiekb9v thats probably just a lot of people sticking to what they know and have used for the last 2 years. Most people don't change stuff that still works for them.
@luminous3558 I mean the much more obvious explanation is that Neuv, currently the most popular on-fielder by a wide margin, is monopolizing Furina. If there is a Raiden team which performs similarly and doesn't use Furina, most people will just go with that. I think the argument about people sticking to what they know is generally over-played. Neuv saw very quick adoption, and in the abyss where Nahida National was good that also saw very quick adoption. People will generally just go along the path of least resistance, whether that involves change or not.
As raiden main (C0R0) that has tried her multiple teams in multiple abyss, here's my takes on raiden team that feels the best. - AoE unstaggered enemy: chevreuse and hyper variant - Single target-ish (light AoE) unstaggered enemy: rational (over-vape) variant - Heavy AoE staggered enemy: aggravate and miko variant - Single target-ish (light AoE) staggered enemy: double hydro and hyperbloom variant (including qiuckbloom) Note: imo all of them are work well in multi-wave except hyper variant. Also all of this is just how it feels, i can't back it up with dps calc.
The problem with Raiden, unlike Miko, is that her ICD is wack as fuck, meaning she doesn't aggravate for shit, meaning Aggravate/spread is garbage for her. This is why she either wants Hyperbloom, which is based off of blooms, not ICD, or classic hypercarry, which focuses on raw damage and buffs, which Chev gives and the classic benny, Sara, Kazuha.
@@marcusaurelius4777 that's why i put aggravate teams on heavy AoE scenario. Raiden big hit box + double nuking (if you play with miko) is very good in AoE and Multiwave. Prime example of this is when abyss 3.x (i forgot lol) with 2 wave whoperflower + 2 wave of doritos robot or with multiple wave of riffhounds. Ofc this is just my experience of 2 years playing her, not concrete evidence or anything.
I have Raiden c3 r1 and Furina c2 so for me what I do is do Raiden, Sara, Furina, Jean. In this case for me since Furina is c2 I do get higher damage than using Raiden Sara, Kazuha, Bennett. Sara is c6 with Skyward Harp + Noblesse so she provides a somewhat decent attack boost as well. Another point to note is it also depends on the weapon, The Catch falls quite behind if you don't use Engulfing Lightning in non Bennett teams. But yeah, depends on what level of investment is in characters.
The best part about Rational is that it's the only National variant where you only *need* to see Bennett the boring for maximum 2s, because you don't need to battery Xiangling, because Ei is batterying Xiangling. It's what makes Rational the only playable National.
i'm sad I didn't comment about kazuha double hydro, that team is so under rated and i dont see it anywhere. can comfortably less than 130 er on yelan and XQ and it steam rolls everything. also at 6:50 you could just use bennett and XQ into raiden, force the swap (Raiden c2+) and while bennett burst is still up use XL. that rotation is more comfortable against the ruin guard chamber but works well
Damage distribution profile and time to kill (get to hp threshold/breakpoint) definitely have an enormous impact. If anything, I find it is less of an issue with the teams itself but with the content we have in game. The Spiral Abyss just doesn't allow enough skill expression with the different teams. For example, if we had elevated platforms with enemies that can't be cc'd and spread out then that changes quite a lot compared to one big enemy that stands right in front of you.
I can say it here right, i personally find Raiden's C2 a bad design for the current game state. Cause it's good at a situation but if that is not the case then it feels ass. So something like C2 Raiden's true potential is if there's enough high HP threshold contents, more end game stuff with extremely high HP pool enemies of wave or bosses that are 5-10M HP.. If game changes that way even in one certain more or place, then chars like C2 Raiden will get to shine truly and show its actual worth.. There will not be the typical issues either which r seen rn on most places like a 500k enemies wave or open world domain runs, part of the rsn why i disliked it a lot when i used a friend's C3R1 Ei on arti domain one day to use his resin when he asked. It just felt ass simply ... TGS's recent vid on C2 Raidem exclusively mentioned many points of which i myself used to have on her... Very good vid imo,right on my takes
I'd say how much i like, I'd put Raiden's C2 in A tier currently. But there's very possible chances i can take it to SSS even in future,only if game shapes that way... The con is good but the way game is designed and Raiden's kit is designed,it contradicts with itself for the time being unless a shift of situations
6:35 what does crit have to do anything with constellation raidens rest of the burst also gets affected by c2 so even first hit doesnt crit there is going to be a big difference
It's kinda weird no one ever calculates dmg profile, i guess it's because it would be hard but theoretically it should be the integral of the inverse function of the integral function of dmg as a function of time multiplied by the team's dps
It's not because it's hard. It's because at KQM artifact investment. You often won't have the damage output for damage profile to matter much. It's actually very easy to identify both when and where damage is coming from and how its distributed. The reason speedruns don't translate to casual play is how much better the average runner's artifacts are than casuals. What was the last speedrun you watched with sub 200 CV?
@@azureaurelia5381 there are a lot of teams that can reach one rotating enemies with keqingmains investment, and dmg profile is still very significant even at 2 rotations which is most teams if you have done the calcs, it can translate to around 15-20% more true dps the only way dmg profile wouldn't matter is if you cannot even 36* and need infinte amount of rotations, in which the curve converge to y=x
What's more weird to me is people not calculating any team versatility metrics. I don't care about frontloaded damage very much. If you are clearing in a few or less rotations anyway, you are already clearing on time. Team versatility is more about clearing on time, every time, with minimal investment.
Little sad Raiden Quickbloom never came up. Something like Raiden w/ Scarlet Sands, Sara/Nahida, Furina, Baizhu would probably be pretty insane, wouldn't it?
The "hardcore" vs "casual" argument for furina doesn't really make sense. It is more the case of speedrunning vs regular gameplay. Furina's animation length doesn't make her especially good for speedrunning, but she is definitely BiS for most of the carries for regular gameplay.
Kinda true. Is someone not hardcore if they instead choose to use weaker characters to clear the abyss as fast as possible, instead of using the fastest clearing teams? Speedrunning specifically is a different category of play. And it has various restrictions because people wouldn't be interested in it otherwise(it would just be whale showcases).
as covered around 12:07 if not DPS, then BIS for what? other non-furina teams can have grouping, or damage reduction, or rotational flexibility, or better scaling with artifact/weapon improvements. there's many quality of factors not speedrun related that regular players will still value
@@jamiekb9vBut furina indeed is the BiS for majority of the carries DPS wise. Grouping is only really relevant in speedruns, cuz it is usually present only in 1/3 floors, sometimes not even that. Not to mention that teams with furina also scale better with investment because you have buffs for your whole team, instead of a constant sub dps like xingqui that does nothing to raise your ceiling aside from his damage. If you are talking about casuals overhyping something, it's definitely grouping and DR. No hardcore player actually cares about DR.
@@legendnbg97 Debatable whether she's BIS for the majority of carries, not true for Raiden, Freeze prefers kokomi, Hu Tao prefers Xq + Yelan core, Nilou highly prefers Kokomi, for Navia its benett and Xiangling pretty much, Liney wants mono, Hyperbloom requires high app and so on.. Don't get me wrong in teams where Furina is good she's exceptional but in every other team she's either a sidegrade or a downgrade unless you pump some Constellations into her. At C6 you can put Furina anywhere and she will be pretty much the best support since she doesn't need a healer anymore to top up her buff and does a very respectable damage even if you bring her as a support but I doubt many would have her C6.
@@Rhyhmx She is BiS for hu tao, linney and navia without a question, hyperbloom depends, because alhaitham hyperbloom is still better with furina, but the regular hyperbloom isn't. Hell even for freeze, you need to pull for kokomi and shenhe, 2 supports that are incredibly niche, to even be competitive with furina+charlotte, so that is really a non argument. If anything, new players are lucky that they don't have to pull for shenhe and kokomi anymore.
I have a very well invested (all crowned, great artifacts) rational team but no 5 star weapons and my Raiden is C0 - there is absolutely no way I could reach the 9:47 timer... if someone doesnt have C2 raiden it doesnt really matter if the setup is quicker, its gonna take a whole rotation with either team. on the other hand I've seen less invested players not even hit the pma hp treshold at all in one rotation with rational... at which point it starts feeling really bad to play bc all your damage is locked to your bursts (similar to hyper), whereas double hydro still has furinas and yelans skill to finish up if one rotation isnt enough. its also worth keeping in mind that double hydro performs the worst in the first chamber bc you're full hp so you can't frontload as much fanfare as in later chambers. and it doesnt matter this abyss but you wont have to deal with enemies getting knocked back by overload. Soo even though they are pretty similar dmg wise I think I would mostly prefer to play double hydro.
this video is so perfect I got raiden and so many videos say the same things but rarely specify what they mean while I understood everything you said here
I find the Raiden, Jean, Yelan/c6 Sara, Furina teams very easy to use and play. Basically you get less restarts with this team so long as you meet the dps requirements. So if you just want to clear the abyss comfortably then it will serve you well. Just make sure you switch to attack goblet instead of electro damage goblet. The damage being distributed between the team mates is actually an advantage here because you are not tied to your bursts doing the damage which is useful when you only have to finish off a weak enemy. Another advantage is that you do not have to be inside Bennett circle to use it. In addition to this you are not pyro infused so you are less vulnerable to being one shot from a melt or vape. In my experience Raiden hyper is one of the worst Raiden teams to play because it is too front loaded on the damage which is often a massive weakness. In fact I often use c6 Fischl instead of c6 Sara with my c2 Raiden because I really want that sub dps damage. Sara burst and Raiden burst is often just overkill or just barely not enough. It is great when you can 1 rotate the boss but it really really sucks when the boss is at 5% hp and now you have no damage.
yes as mentioned in the vid i use double hydro for artifact farming and think its good for casual abyss clears. i just think raiden national and chevreuse overload are also good for casual abyss! and chevreuse doesn't need bennett's circle either. edit: oh yeah and how could i forget hyperbloom! another for easy comfortable clears (if u can play without a healer or use kokomi/zhongli/baizhu)
@@jamiekb9v IMO Rational is not as comfy as Furina Raiden because of the overload that happens on some floors as well as no circle impact. EM Raiden also has the issue of requiring a defensive character and I find switching artifacts really annoying. Especially if you have a Kuki ready to go who fulfils both rolls.
Hyper can feel horrible yes I love the nuke damage though and the skill expression of switching rotations, however I believe the best casual raiden team for me is chevreuse raiden c6 sara and xiangling as it helps her still do so much damage and feels so much better in multiwave.
The thing is that PMA first phase doesn't have that much HP to keep up with C2+ Ei Hypercarry's damage. At C0/C1 Ei, with C2+ Furina, C0 R1 Yelan, C0 Jean, this team clears it faster than even Ei national. If we took a higher HP enemy into consideration, then even at C2, this team will be faster.
His whole answer is based on " I have C2, see how it clears? I'm sure that C0 can do the same and reach that (invented by who?) threshold". And he is the one shitting on sheets, meanwhile saying things like that...
What is your opinion on a well invested raiden quickbloom? To me it looks like a fair compromise between sustain and burst. I've been getting some success with raiden, nahida, furina and bhaizu all c2 except furina c1
This team is incredible yet I never see anyone talk about it. It has the sustained dps and frontloaded damage. For example, It easily hits the 9:47 threshold that they used against the PMA.
This is my favorite Raiden team to actually play, although as someone who has C3R1 Raiden, C2 Nahida, C2R1 Furina, C0 Baizhu I can only attest to its performance at higher cost. The average DPR is definitely higher than her C3R1 hypercarry and more importantly it has decent damage with E-only for when chambers fail to line up well with your Raiden Q uptime. Baizhu also has powerful healing with high uptime and no baggage of circle impact or self-pyro. And there is no VV setup or uptime to worry about, it is not a team where the order or timing of your setup matters very much besides TTDS if you use it. That said, the setup time is too long for it to be a truly competitive speed-run team, and it doesn't actually condense its damage that well. It's much easier for me to hit the PMA threshold with hypercarry for instance, and even in other bosses it is pretty consistently several seconds slower. Outside of speed-running, Nahida also has the same debuff issue as VV with having to swap in to apply her E to newly spawned enemies. But perhaps the biggest weakness is just the fact that it uses so many versatile characters, it really limits your team building options for the other side. I think in these respects, the new Chev teams compare favorably, but they also have their own issues with how Q-locked the damage is and overload complicating things vs some chambers.
While I agree that the Furina/Yelan teams for the most part arent really suited for speedrunning(mainly 4 cost brackets), you did forget to mention a huge downside of rational which is the knockback from the overloads making some aoe content trash to play against. Its also more circle impact dependent for Bennett's attack buff which is a factor for some chamber layouts. Also not really speedrun related, Bennett gives you a pyro aura making it easier to get one shot in previous abysses like the cons beast and even triple kenki can be an issue too. Multi wave content for hypercarry is also an issue to deal with too. It has the same drawbacks with reswirling as furina/yelan except the team is solely reliant on raiden's personal damage after her Q frontload and having sara to deal enough damage to one shot the first wave. Using PMA as a benchmark is also not really fair too given it's a boss designed around her national/hypercarry teams in mind to promote Raiden. You basically see a trend where PMA is reran alongside raiden or yae banners. Also it is crucial to explicitly highlight the significance of investment into Xiangling, whether through the use of of SOSS or r5 wavebreaker(with highly optimized artifacts), weapons used in the national teams in your CN cup excel sheet. Not mentioning this can be misleading when comparing rational teams with other teams esp since within the context of CN speedrunning rules. It's a huge reason on why the 4 cost rational guy from the CN cup is getting faster or comparable timings to your clear times even tho his raiden is only c0 and adhering to the ''dmg card equals gold rule''(technically making yours a 6-cost team). Xiangling contributes significantly to the team's damage output(more than raiden iirc) so pumping her with more investment is why rational teams are successful in speedrunning competitions. Her ER reqs is also a lot lower in raiden teams which lets her get away with using SOSS and that's her BIS for dmg iirc. Lastly, I strongly disapprove of the personal call-out directed at TGS , it is highly toxic and brings unnecessary hate towards him. Using his face and video as a direct jab is in poor taste and only stirs up drama. His guides are not targeted even towards CN speedrunning in the first place and is more towards a regular audience to follow. Having high and reliable damage is more important is a lot more important for a general audience to follow esp since the cost factor does not factor in how hard it is to get constellation 6 on 4 stars.
did you manage to try the new chevreuse overload teams? they can be played without bennett for no circle impact and long buff/debuff uptimes for *both* great casual play QoL and also can perform for hardcore players trying speedruns! also in regards to CN cup, national doesn't really need that much advantages to be a strong team. Actually my recent vid using it in the last abyss didn't have the most insane investment yet I was still getting better results than furina (and the reason i also recorded furina-bennett was cause furina-yelan-jean was much weaker than both) so whilst I agree that raiden national has advantages in competitions, it also can perform well outside of those which I think I do try to demonstrate. Plus xingqiu's damage reduction is nice 😅
@@jamiekb9v 05:18 09:34 The comparison you made here was with sara/kaz, im not talking about the chev variant. Again my comparison was not with furina, its against the CN guy with cost in account. You are using a c2 raiden are you not? With 3 dmg buff cards? That's 4 cost vs 6 cost. To make things easier to understand, your XL was vaping for 50k plus the other guy was doing 70k plus with a higher crit rate and he still got a similar if not better clear time compared to yours without the c2 raiden to carry. There's a good reason why the sucrose national variant scored better compared to raiden variants in the excel sheet. You can promote the national/kaz hypercarry variants thats not the issue. Its more of the fact that you didnt mention any of their downsides making your stance a lot more bias than it should be. Esp with the citation to the excel sheet or CN speedrun competitions which is honestly not applicable for regular players to follow. You need to make a big disclaimer when it comes to those kind of comparisons as its not good enough evidence on its own to say which team is better or not. All it says is which teams performs best in CN speedrun and for which abyss cycle.
> it is crucial to explicitly highlight the significance of investment into Xiangling, > not mentioning this can be misleading Are we watching the same video? 7:12 Plus he already mentioned this in the spreadsheet itself. Also it should be absolutely valid to show the calcs source if you're discussing it. Even necessarily I'd say. If pure mention (without calling out) is "hate, toxic and drama", maybe you shouldn't share calcs on the internet. Just saying.
I think you're misunderstanding the TGS section, which is not a callout. He is an (online) friend I personally asked him if I could use his calcs in my video just to explain my point which he gave me permission for. In fact he also thinks raiden double hydro is overrated and our discussions were inspiration when making this video.
With your strategy/optimization, how is Ganyu performing in current meta? Any updated guides on Ganyu? Getting consistent C6 melts on Ganyu is also pretty rare (even rarer with her burst active) and almost none of the Ganyu guides cover either of these. Aliss also hasn't been making much Ganyu speedruns recently so maybe it's getting harder.
Thanks for the all the investigation and detailed discussion in this video ! I really don't like team comparison as it is really content dependent (like in the current abyss double/mono Hydro sucks to play against Hydro tulpa while pyro gets huge buff notably Xiangling which can hit twice per pyro tornado against huge ennemies and vape against hydro tulpa). But it was still interesting to follow.
Thanks for the banger video jamie! Your content is such good wide coverage: high level play; teambuilding, theory _and_ its translation to practice; what's comfortable to play and what difficult things are worth learning.
@@jamiekb9v That's great!! Can you please show the difference between Barbara and Kokomi on the new video? I have some friends that like Nilou, but are going to skip her because they don't have Kokomi... I also don't have her 😭😭😭
raiden - baizhu - fischl - kazuha is one of my fav teams for c0 raiden. little setup time for supports, super easy to play and just flows very well. crushes in st and baizhu keeps you immortal and you're not tied to any circle impact!!! sure it's nothing to write home about when it comes to speedrunning and stuff but it's really fun
I keep hearing different things about optimal Raiden combos and I’m a bit confused. Inheard at some point that N3C*3+N1C is her best combo, then I heard that N3CD*3+N4 is her best, and now I heard you saying that rapid N1CD is the highest damage and highest aoe. Which combo is really the best for a traditional Raiden Hypercarry?
Thanks for addressing my question in the video? Is there any merit to playing some kind of hyper bloom/aggravate hybrid team where raiden is played on field? What would the team and artifact recommendation be?
glad to know that single cycle that boss is a competition speedrun thing cause I have to do a second cycle with my Hu Tao which was supposed to be a great single taget character
First of all, really great video. As C3 haver I sadly have to skip Chevy but I put her into optimizer anyway, and even at c0 she does outperform kazuha in hyper raiden team even with 5star on bennett and sara. You lose a bit of resis shred uptime as sara will be the last overload trigger, but the extra healing and pyro particles helps facetanking and bennett ER needs. At c6 she crushes kazuha completely as you can get one healing tick during raiden burst animation and stacking during the rest of the uptime, thus smothing your DPS curve until the end where buffs normaly fall off. Great buff to raiden hyper against bosses and pretty much her best team for dmg per screenshot, against mobs kazuha will always be better.
@@jamiekb9v as I said, unless you are a critfish miracle. My C0R1 Raiden is top 2%, and her hypercarry team can be summarized with the phrase “the power of 3-4 rotations”
I personally find Furina teams for Raiden much more comfy than national. I kinda find Raiden not doing that much damage without Furina buff. I don’t use double hydro though, it’s just Furina, Jean, Bennett and Raiden. It’s effectively sun fire Raiden team
Hello jamie. Do you think furina is underwhelming? I kept hearing that she's good, but i struggle to find teams where shes an improvement in. Most of the times the teams i put her in i either get slower or similar clear times...i paired her up with healers as i should be. Not sure if im doing something wrong but im kinda bumped about her
she is great in a bunch of teams for sure! but I think it's been overexagurated how many teams are improved by her, and often teams losing a ton of QoL and utility trying to fit her in without even gaining damage to warrant it. so i'm not surprised you experienced that, but it does ultimately come down to which DPS you have?
I thought I'm the only one that find her underwhelming. I did the right rotation with the right build too, but I still don't see any improvement. I've tried her with different teams but i still don't notice any difference in teams without her
@@kiya_zra the only teams I've noticed a drastic difference with were mono hydro and obvious Neuvillette teams, and to some extent Eula's. Although tbh I don't have most of the dps in which I heard she's an upgrade in. I wish they had done her kit more justice tbh.
@@jamiekb9v raiden, al haitham, neuvillette, eula, ganyu, ayaka. Neuvillette is the exception, of course. It's probably reasonable to assume it's because I don't have most of the dps she's supposedly an improvement paired with(?)
In my experience, Furina is good because she's a good option in a lot of teams, even if she's not the BiS. If you already have your DPS best teams, she's going to be equal or slightly worse than most of them. However, if you don't, she's going to be an improvement in most cases. For instance, I hadn't played Ayaka in Abyss in a long time because I don't have Shenhe. But Furina kinda fixes that issue since she's good enough to play Ayaka team and have a decent experience, even if it's probably worse than her premium. There are some characters that really appreciate her (Klee does, Neuvillette and Eula do too from what I've heard ?) but if the character already had a clear BiS team, I suppose she will feel underwhelming compared to it. She is certainly getting overhyped from what I've seen. She's good because she can work with a lot of characters, not because she's the best for everyone (that would be a bit too much in my opinion)
Great video.. I'm a new Raiden owner, and got Chevy to C6 cos she's just so damn fun. I'm not big on min-maxing, but she's made me want to invest a lot into her.
I mean even if you're a casual you'll get something decent running at some point I've spent so much time and resin into emblem so I have a very good set for engulfing, 70 cr 140 CD while being at 275 ER for engulfing to fully max out it's passive
She is the weakest archon to be released, even on this video there is other buffers that do her job better without the need for a healer, her DPS isn't that amazing either. Kind of lost interested on the game at this point since this is the direction they are going with, underwhelming buffer that can't compete with current ones while also having downsides.
Not weakest, underwhelming for all the hoops you have to do to get the max amount. even at C1 a well built C0 Kazuha is usually better on teams where he can swirl.@@yaemikoshandler
On the topic of pulling Chevreuse and already having C2 Raiden, I tried pulling for her and got C3 Raiden in 48 pulls... then got Chevreuse 1 pull after. Take from that what you will
Also because it's a c0 team which means it's damage is primarily focused on supports and buffing them so at c2 it's prob more worth it to buff raiden as much or more than the rest of the team which is why her best c2 teams are a lot different than her best c0 teams?
@@marcevivi8581 Yeah true. Thats why bennet is soo OP with raiden. She have big %dmg in her kit due to her passive that converts ER into %Electro damage
setups buffing kazuha with saras charge atk are usually done if you need the absolute highest amount of damage per rotation. like for example a tanky boss in f12 chamber 3 however often it can be skipped since it's not a huge increase in damage for most players
I never liked rational since both my xingqiu and xiangling are still c0 despite being a day 1 player i just can't pull these 2 and they feel atrocious to play without cons (even when crowned) i'll stick with c3 r1 hypercarry raiden + c6 sara it was worth the investment i'm also f2p👏👏
Great analysis. In my opinion Jean cannot replace kazuha. In your video you use the example of PMA. But if we consider aoe type situations, raiden's E paired with kazuha is just too op and the DMG does make a huge difference. We just need more healers before we go back to Jean.
I'm not sure Raiden hyper c0 can actually one-phase the first part of PMA as advertised in this video. Not having c2 nerfs more than just your nuke, and I've watched many average raidens simply not do enough damage.
It's 100% possible, as lwk (look on YT or reddit) has done it twice (once in 3.3 w/ an impactful-although not crazy-moon blessing and once again now in 4.3 w/ a useless blessing). But no, it's not something the average Raiden can do and not "feasible" if you don't have at least EL + Aquila/Mist Bennett.
I do wanna try raiden hyper carry cuz invested a lot for c2 raiden, the thing is I didn't got c6 sara so idk who to replace for her placce as she's the main piece in the team. That's why I still use the first one cuz I have them all built up
I used her this abyss with Xianling Bennett and Zhongli to get the Hydro Boss on 12-3, she is flexible AF and you only need maybe 3 brain cells to look at the enemies and change up her teams accordingly
Agreed with the flexibility. Can throw her in many teams and have her benefit them, the opposite of someone like Nilou who is very powerful in a certain team but not flexible
Is N1C really better for hyper? KQM's guide currently states that it outdoes 3N3C + N1C only if you fit 6 full strings in, which I'm pretty sure is no easier than the other combo while completely devouring stamina. The only advantage I see is the larger hitboxes. Lwk even used n3c in their PMA speedrun.
idk why he did that exactly in the other video, but his recent upload looks like hes doing n1c to be fair sometimes the dmg difference doesn't really matter as much
Raiden at c0 does not share the same role with hutao/ayaka. She's more like a battery to recharge everyone's energy to prepare for the next rotation. You can force her to a hypercarry role, but it's not worth it. The question is invalid to begin with. . Also, Why even mention hutao if xianling exists. XL can do all hutao can and more.
I've tried using Raiden, Yelan, Furina and Jean, but to me using Fischl instead of Raiden and with Yelan on field felt better and defeats bosses a bit faster (I think it's because Oz can deal damage straight away). It's a squishy team but it's almost fully ranged and has a decent amount of movement with Yelan's skill and Fischl's burst, plus Jean's C2
For me C0 Raiden's sole purpose in the rational team is restoring her allies energy to achieve that flawless rotations. Also she can dish out non-negligible amount of damage herself But for me I'm having fun with a Raiden aggravate team with nahida, zhongli and dendro mc (I'm just coping because I still don't have chevreuse)
did you use atk sands and goblet on raiden for double hydro? at least goblet. cause my c0 raiden crits for 145k in that team, which isnt as high as hypercarry, but your c2 raiden shouoldve hit harder
on the Furina yelan team at 9:00, to be fair to the team you didn't swirl electro there, which explains the 164k somewhat. In general I agree with the point that c0 furina is being overrated though.
@@jamiekb9v I'm pretty sure that's a raiden E hit, no? There's no swirl text on the jean Q, and it seems to line up with raiden's non crit E damage earlier in the rotation, plus there's the raiden E slice animation above the 1781 but only one purple number.
@@jamiekb9v That's wild. I was expecting 225-250kish. My own experience has me critting for 330k (75% crit rate so no fishing) But I suppose c3r1 raiden and c3+ furina just increase it by nearly double over a c2(r0?) Raiden then.
As someone who went to from c0 r1 tao to c1 on the neuvillete banner why do ppl say that jump cancelling is so bad I’ve felt that the c1 combos like N2C10 or n1c12 are much harder to pull off, and I’d still say a c0 r1 or even dragon bane hutao is akin to a c0 r1 raiden hyper
I wouldn't compare c0 raiden hyper but c0 raiden national, which feels so much smoother than c0 hu tao with less margin for error (running out of stamina, hu tao randomly flying across the map, getting staggered). IMO the quality of life is worlds apart
I’m trying to get C2 Raiden and have her at C1 right now. I was trying to get 3 more copies of Sara for C6, but instead I got SIX copies of Chevreuse before I got a single copy of Kujo Sara… it’s so unfortunate.
5:17 showing just the PMA chamber, a boss that favors the old teams, is an example of the problem with speedrunning as an argument. It consists of tunnel-visioned scenarios cherry-picked by players. The most this shows is that the Furina team is not the best matchup in a single chamber with PMA, which is fine. Worse matchups are natural, you wouldn't use Tulpa to show that hydro teams are worse for instance. Frontloaded damage gets batchested a lot but it is not always a good thing, the video even touches on this. At 4:56 it is presented as a good thing, but later at 21:09 it is a problem? This is a contradiction that needs to be clarified. Also Bennett circle is a pretty established negative term so getting rid of it has got to count for something right (you would have Jean circle but it should be less problematic)
my double hydro furina teams were also unable to one rotate in 4.2 abyss vs asimon, chicken, and coppelia. in fact in my "raiden national furina vs xingqiu" video I actually had to replace yelan jean with bennett xiangling to have a better chance at it.
@@jamiekb9v in 4.2 abyss you should have been lacking furina talents. Though I don't doubt C0 furina teams can lag in one rotation scenarios, all this bossing is what I mean by tunnel visioning. Disappointed you glossed over the contradiction
Relative to the cost, it's Raiden+Chevreuse variantes, you can scope for C2/C3 Raiden and may grab C6 Chevreuse and C6 Sara along the way. You then just need a C5 Bennett or Xiangling and you get a very competitive. Raiden Furina double hydro has more DPS, higher vertical investment potential and is much more comfortable to use but it's god damn expansive to boot.
How is Raiden's double hydro with Furina and Jean at high investment with cons compared with Raiden's classic Hyper? Say Raiden C3,R1, Yelan C2R1, Furina C6R1, Jean C6. Would that still be worse than her classic Hyper with C6 Sara and a C2,R1 Kazuha? Your videos are extremely F2P-limiting. I'm mind-blown that you have a C2 Raiden.
My fav team is raiden, c2 nahida, c2 yelan, last spot is whoever i feel like, sometimes Zhongli, sometimes baizhu, sometimes bennet. I wish i hve furina tho
@@harizu_5182 yes her c2 is extremely good some regard it as the best in the game cuz of how much it buffs the team BUT she’s already fantastic at c0 so if you want other characters don’t feel forced to go for cons
Jamie ur not underplaying Raiden double hydro to shill the kokomi version are u? Cause the general opinion of Raiden mains is that it’s a pretty good team
no not to shill kokomi lol. but i think many raiden mains are potentially lost in the sauce overhyping the new thing and forgetting how good the old teams were. think about it logically: they were using raiden hyper, then one patch later double hydro was her new best team, then all of a sudden another patch later chevreuse overload is her new best team? really? it's a bit flip floppy to me, especially when we can a-b test in abyss instead of relying on theory.
@@jamiekb9v yes but the thing is, Raiden furina was actually slept on for a significant time by tc and it was only talked about by casual players. Like it really just went under the radar until people realized how good and convenient to play it is. So I don’t think the trend argument really works here. Certain teams like national are popular because of a combination of power and ease of use, and that’s exactly where Raiden double hydro fits in. As for chev team, unlike furina she doesn’t have a big poll of team options so ofc people would be interested in her synergy with Raiden. Which I may is rather intuitive.
@@jamiekb9v but your test didnt prove much since you only did 1 room that favored quick burst dps, double hydro has a slower ramp up but eventually catches up depending on the enemy.
@@taikobo6943 yes I agree it was slept on espeically for casual and convenient play 100%, but I think that's only half of the discussion whereas many people are trying to also hype it's DPS calcs which I think is going a bit too far. Luckily I also did cover raiden furina teams a few times in my previous videos, so I made sure not to overlook it
@@jamiekb9v fair enough, calcs were always short of being reliable. Sorry if the first comment sounded too baity btw that was rather impulsive of me XP
First of all, forgive my English, I'm using a translator, I think the strongest point that the raiden has in its kit is the possibility of converting builds, for example, while I have the raiden on the team, my xingqiu there is energy with any weapon he uses, so instead of using the sacrifice, I exchange it for al haithan's weapon, since it increases attack, rate and critical damage, in this my xingqiu gains an average of 90% damage increase real, almost doubling just due to the existence of the raiden in the team
and, regarding the raiden taser, I think its value is locked in Jean's c2, which increases the raiden's attack speed, increasing its damage and indirectly increasing the damage of the team's real dps, yelan
Tbh I still love to play Raiden national cus it is comfortable to play plus it doesn't punish you hard if you mess up the rotation a bit or not having character burst ready to do the normal rotation (unless using xaingling brust before Bennett brust) I also love Raiden triple pryo with cherveuse. If I don't need dmg reduce from xingqiu I can just use xingqiu on other team and use cherveuse with Raiden. Also the fact that I don't use Bennett and xaingling that much on other teams say a lot. I sometime don't even use kazuha, xaingling and Bennett in abyss which are high pick rate on abyss. But Raiden national is just so comfy to use and I don't think any other raiden team will out do this team (a part from hyper I guess)
Please suggest i have C6 Sara, c2 cheveruse, xingling and c0 of furina, yelan, jean,raiden so which team should I build?? Will raiden chevi overload be better than furina??
I tried Raiden double hydro and I was "where are my Raiden's damage?" So I came back to hyper raiden and I happier like that xP (i failed to get Chevreuse so I can't her with Raiden xP)
I also have the same c2r1 and I will pull for her c3 coz I simp for her and I'm also f2p. Her c3 increase her damage by like 18%. So not much increase in dps tbh. It depends on you if you value it more than pulling for a new character
@@chonkhampter I did C3 her... But it's kinda useless in meta comp now... I build raiden full EM and use it in hyperbloom team, Exchange for kuki... And give her sign to xiangling.. Even tho she can deal 650k dmg in hyper raiden team.. I regret it... Damn it.. Should stay at C0...
@@chonkhampter I did C3 her... But it's kinda useless in meta comp now... I build raiden full EM and use it in hyperbloom team, Exchange for kuki... And give her sign to xiangling.. Even tho she can deal 650k dmg in hyper raiden team.. I regret it... Damn it.. Should stay at C0...
@@alifalfarras6522 you can use kuki r Fischl there tho. And use her as Hypercarry or put her in a Taser team. Of try someone else. So has a lot of versatility.
@@alifalfarras6522 different for me I guess. I pulled her on 4.3. got c2 while losing 2 50-50s. Got c6 Benny, c6 Sara and c6 Chevereuse. That's literally her best in slot Hypercarry team rn. I'm doing 600k initial burst slashes in abyss. And clear every floor within 15-20 secs with single enemies and 30 secs with multiple enemies. Don't have a problem. On the other side I run a team with Nahida, Furina, Kuki and Xinqiu. Which takes over 1 min to clear.
I'm curious: so far, do you guys prefer Raiden Chevreuse teams *with Bennett* or without Bennett? 🤔
Edit: something I wish I could have made more clear in my video:
the thing is raiden national and chevreuse overload are good for casual players, good in sheets, QoL, and whilst still having speedrun potential
so its not even like we are comparing super hardcore only teams vs super casual friendly team (double hydro). these other teams are still pretty casual friendly, no?
I prefer Bennett (C0 Raiden) but I feel like at higher invest he is less good
Sara, Bennett, Chevreuse
I’ve found the most success with Xiangling Chev Sara so far. It’s really nice for multiwave in 12-2
Trying Raiden, Chevreuse, Dehya, Kujou Sara on spiral abyss. Feels comfy but not optimise damage (already 36 star spiral abyss)
hard question. I'll get back to you once I have Sara fully invested :p
i always love your take, a content creator that does both calculations and high level gameplay while keeping up with other community's opinion as well
I appreciate that!
i have a vid idea, you could talk about this whole "sheets do not tell the full story" situation for the many teams that we have in genshin, not specifying any teams in general but more about how sheets dont show the value of certain characteristics of a team and what the team can or cannot do.
You might enjoy their previous videos on Nilou teams, with one of the major points being that they are very difficult to sheet so people don't rate them properly.
@@phoenixlau I follow this channel for quite a while despite only being subbed not too long ago, I've watched those
That isnt why Nilou isnt rated high lol.@@phoenixlau She's borderline op at low cost casual play, its just people don't actually test her without being disingenuous af, dislike her weird playstyle, and call her shit and expensive.
WOW this is incredible, you actually walk through everything and answer all our actual questions - I've watched so many vids on Raiden (I already have Yae, Cyno, Keqing) and it just feels like the same talking points over and over - you actually show subtle differences and IRL vs spreadsheet. Absolutely brilliant!
of course, feel free to send in your own questions next faq too!
@@jamiekb9v Thanks M8! The point you made about evenly spread dmg teams vs hypercarry and how that impacts how important dmg increase in artifacts/weapons is such a new thing to me (playing less than a year) - so going deeper into that would be incredible with examples!
I imagine the Furina team is much better at lower investment, eg. without any constellations on any character. Xiangling and Xingqiu’s constellations are really carrying the national team, as are Sara’s cons in the hyper team. A C6 4* takes a similar amount of wishes on average to a C2 5*, they shouldn’t be taken for granted.
really love how you actually take into account practical advantages/disadvantages and take for exemple actual situations that often happen like the enemy waves debuff problem unlike spreadsheets
would love to see more
I can totally see C0 Furina being overhyped when it comes to the hardcore side of things. Her dps is spread evenly over 20-30 seconds, no, in fact both her dps and utility are backloaded with the real ramp up happening 10-15 seconds into the rotation, which is completly counterproductive in an environment where the first 10 seconds are critical.
with a team healer you achive max buff in 4 seconds
I'm curious what your setup is to reach 300 stacks in 4 seconds starting from 100% hp on all 4 characters at C0. Even with Neuvillette I'm pretty sure that's not possible.@@CelVini
@@F_Print well, yes is impossible on the first rotation, but on the second rotation forward we can achieve good results, its worth having a worst first rotation
That's the thing tho, there's often not a second rotation in hardcore content, which is what I'm commenting on right now. C1 or C2 Furina does fine there because she can frontload her stacks, but C0 falls off pretty hard.@@CelVini
@@F_Print nah, I got the point, but 98% of the playerbase does atleast 2 rotations on Abyss. There isen't worth be thaaaat optimal on the tips that affect so few
TBH, one reason 芙影夜景, which is the Furina Raiden Yelan Jean team is as popular as it is is because of it's ability to clear the abyss bacm during the concerated beast era with only Raiden Yelan Jean and one flex slot. It's very popular, at least among those who watched 懂哥 back in the days and even now.
One reason it's liked is because of it's ability to easily counter mobile enemies. Raiden can easily clear near enemies, while Yelan can clear enemies far away, while jean can provide heal and cleanse, something the other healers like Bennett don't.
yeah I used to watch donggaming who talked about Raiden Yelan Jean a lot
One thing to be pointed out about Raiden for more casual players is her versatility because of her energy regen mechanic. For example last abyss I was having a hard time getting past Coppelia with Raiden, because she would kill Raiden even through Bennett or Jean's healing. Well I played Raiden, Bennett, Jean and Furina and it was a breeze. While it wasn't 'optimal', I still cleared it in a minute. None of the other DPS's can dream of pulling of such rainbow element teams, or take out crucial members to adjust to the current abyss (except maybe Neuvilette cuz yeah).
yep I mention something similar in the driver section. whilst she isn't necessarily stronger than sucrose or kazuha in national, for the average player she is much easier with a high skill floor!
u can play a rainbow selection with furina and jean (or any other healer) with almost anyone lol
@@s-zs7nn Yea, I thought that was a strange thing to point out lol. Outside of characters that really want specific reactions like Ayaka in freeze (And honestly even she can run this team if you just modify her build), basically everyone can run this team given you have adequate builds 😆
TGS mentioned a pretty good way of guaranteeing the Electro swirl on Raiden’s Double Hydro Team by 100%, and it’s instead of using Raiden’s Skill at the very early of her team combo; it rather to use it right before using Jean’s skill. It’s pretty good!
Oh that makes sense but you do lose uptime on when Vv. It last for 10s after the onfield anemo swirls, and since the rotate is now raiden jean, you will spend like 3-4 of the 10s on furina and yelan which is problematic imo. Correct me if my assessment of the rotation is wrong. D
@@putent9623 I think they mean Furina > Yelan > Raiden E > Jean, as opposed to having Raiden's Skill being the first thing you do. You lose out on a few particles at the start but it's better for guaranteeing an Electro Swirl whilst keeping VV uptime for Raiden and the Hydros when they start doing more damage.
@SomeoneSayOri ohhh that makes more sense, it's a little scuff tho. Thanks for explaining.
Recently found this video, I found it helpful as someone who doesn’t have many characters
Thank you Jamie for perfectly and succinctly illustrating in one example why I am totally over other TCs showcasing carries with Furina as some kinda Renaissance for their place in the meta.
Yes, Furina is a little monster -- but she's got limitations when it comes to padding out a carry play style -- and too many other content creators can't leave their spreadsheets long enough to give a nuanced view on it -- in use.
Your videos are always very informative, and its nice to see a different point of view, from someone that actively doing speedruns and not only sitting in front of an excel sheet. Both has its value, but its harder to find videos from the practical side of things. Thank you!
Pulled c0 Raiden this banner, and honestly while her national team is probably not the best variation, it's the first national that I actually enjoy playing. Thanks for the FAQ.
Please do more videos like this, fantastic content!
Thanks, will do!
Furina teams have long set up times: you put your finger on a feeling I couldn't quite put into words.
Don't get me wrong, I've been quite enjoying playing Furina, especially in the previous Abyss stomping on pyro shields and such.
But I wonder how she would fare against upcoming matchups like Wenut, where you want your team to be able to fire off all their damage inside a very small window.
I covered it in my recent single target cup video, but even neuvillette players will sometimes prefer childe instead of furina since you don't even need to switch to him to get value. whereas furina's long setups can balance out her ramping buffs. and even a few casual players still prefer childe for since not needing to setup is pretty comfy
I think you don’t understand the wenut, long setup times are detrimental for extremely early dps checks, like the PMA’s 9:47 early trigger. For the wenut, it does a few attacks, then enters it’s damage window, so long setup times are better since you setup before the wenut’s window, then blast it during the window. For instance, you can furina burst -> zhongli -> kazuha before the wenut even generates its orbs, then the entire damage window can be used by neuvillette.
I think there's an important consideration to make about the dissonance between calcs and speedruns, a consideration that I think should be outlined more in videos like this otherwise there's the risk to fracture the playerbase creating preconceptions and hurting open minded confrontations, this is even more important when the video kinda "debunks" results from calculations and spreadsheets. You often tend to use the word "theory" when addressing calcs, like "in theory" or "theoretical calculations", which isn't wrong since those are calcs so they aren't experimental results, but your communication promotes often and even in this video the idea that calculations inherently have huge fallacies that keep them from accurately gauging characters and teams in practice. While this is partially true for many spreadsheets that go around so what you do with your channel is really precious for the English speaking community, calculations actually can go much further than that and the problem with them is mostly the way they are received and communicated rather than themselves. For example around 10:00 you address the effectiveness of vertical investment which calcs "don't show", but it's not like they can't, it's just that the spreadsheets and the calculations circulating around are mostly tailored towards players with low/mediocre and a more horizontal investment rather than high and vertical, but calculations referencing a different level and type of investment will show something else instead: the problem doesn't lie in "spreadsheets" themselves, but in the way they are communicated, shared and received by the playerbase. Calculations CAN show frontload, it's just more difficult to do and since its value changes a lot depending on the scenario (like it is with speedruns) TCers tend to stick to more "fixed" and "objective" parameters like pure dps over an extended period of time when looking at different characters and teams "in a vacuum". Those results aren't bad nor good: they are just data, those numbers have a context and when communicated to peoplesuch content should be make explicit. Even if you do, of course people will still misunderstand, but that's on the people, not on who did those calcs trying to adhere to these or those parameters, as long as the calcs are coherent with those explicit parameters.
This was a long comment just to say that many viewers will wrongly receive the message "calcs bad", while it should be more like "calcs misunderstood". They are a tool, they can be made in different ways and with different assumptions, but how you use them it's what actually matters. You are doing a great job at clarifying misconceptions that also come from people looking at and even spreading and communicating calcs the wrong way, but you should make clearer this last aspect: those specific calcs aren't wrong, they just describe something that in given scenarios doesn't apply. For example, against a Geo Vishap instead of PMA in Abyss I guess things would severely change, depending on how exactly the frontload spikes line up for different teams at different levels of investment, and if we have new events with enemies with ten or dozens of times the current HP or new combat modes similar to that then that's another case where those spreadsheets would adhere more to practical scenarios.
Other than that, insightful video as always
a bit into the vid, appreciate the mention of practical vs sheeted DPS, definitely gets overlooked but real gameplay is more important
i dont really trust shitted dps charts anymore
Hyper invested speedruns have similar issues in that its not really applicable to normal accounts.
If your team needs to 1 rotate or it falls apart then its not recommendable to people who didnt farm insane artifacts.
@@luminous3558 Every account can speedrun. It's the fastest way to clear with what you have in front of you. I have done speedruns with craftable/F2P weapons with level 80 characters and no crowns.
From my experience the teams and rotations you would use can differ quite greatly from what sheets recommend on any account. Not always but very often
@@luminous3558 I would go further. Speedrunning at any investment level isn't very applicable to a normal account.
it doesn't matter much if the new team doesn't reach 9:47 timer, it's still better than going to the next chamber with no burst like 6:19 here. Not everyone's speedrunning, some just wants a comfortable clear. Because the new team has multiple characters doing damage and it doesn't focus only on one character doing all the dmg, even if your Raiden doesn't have the burst, Yelan and Furina can still do dmg. That's the comfort people are talking about.
the pma chamber was just one example, but double hydro will still be weaker for other chambers (tulpa for obvious reasons), as well as the previous 4.2 abyss which was entirely single target. there is also the new raiden-chevreuse overload teams if you want multiple damage dealers with comfort utility, or even hyperbloom.
@@jamiekb9v my point exactly. I am not arguing Raiden double hydro is the best team or anything, it has reasons why it's popular. From a speedrunner perspective, the team might have problems like not meeting dmg threshold or getting good artifacts for one character only improves a portion of team dps. It's more popular between normal players because it's plug and play and works well. Yelan, Furina and Xingqiu are flexible characters that you can use in almost every team so investing in them is not a bad thing for any account unlike Sara and Chevreuse. If you already have Yelan, Furina and Xingqiu built, you can just slot them in and get a similar result to those specialized teams.
I get what you’re trying to say but you may be missing the mark here. He’s missing burst because his team over performed by killing the boss before raiden could regenerate burst for team. that’s just a raiden problem. The furina team would have the exact same problem if it cleared a boss before raiden used her full burst.
Also, in practice, raiden hyper carry gets her burst back easier thanks to electro resonance and Sara battery. So your raiden feels even worse to battery in the furina team.
@@cadeemmusgrove7791 the difference is if the pma is down like that, you don't necessarily have to use Raiden's burst. Yelan and Furina can finish it easily. You have to use Raiden burst in the hyper team otherwise where is the dmg? Also the new team doesn't have tight rotation and doesn't need to care about Raiden missing crit on the initial slash, you can just press the buttons and clear the abyss.
Raiden not having her burst up? 😂 nice one
I feel like only looking at high level play can lead to making somewhat silly statements. Raiden double hydro isn't a speedrun team, but it's by no means a "spreadsheet" team. It was her most used team in the previous abyss by a large margin. Even now it's only slightly used less than hyper and that's mostly due to Tupla. It's a team with flaws, like all her other teams. Hyper has grouping but honestly just sucks if you don't have C6 sara and it's still pretty bad in multi wave even when you do.
Frontload vs sustain is a matter of investment. Frontload becomes more impactful when you are already invested enough to nearly 1 cycle abyss chambers. Frontloaded teams almost exclusively do less dps, so if you don't have the investment to nearly delete abyss chambers, they often perform horrible.
Another thing that really needs to be talked about with Raiden hyper is just how high the bar for entry is. Raiden is extremely stat hungry character. Hitting a consistent crit rate on Raiden takes significantly higher artifact investment than any other dps in the game. She is the lone character without a CR weapon or accession stat, while also having high ER reqs. My Raiden is 74/147 for a total of 236 CV. That's an incredibly amount of investment for bottom of the barrel CR. The best way to play Raiden is to play teams that don't depend on her damage too much, commit to artifact hell or accept you'll have to reset to often for Crit rng. I don't even use my C3R1 Raiden for speedruns anymore, it takes significantly longer than any other dps at the same investment to get a good run.
are you sure? i'm pretty sure actually raiden national was her most used team by quite a large margin in 4.2. and again in this abyss (but for obvious benefits due to tulpa)
(source yshelper 130k sample size) but correct me if I am wrong
@@jamiekb9v
You're right, the sample I pulled from was smaller. Yshelper has 11% vs 9.9% with 11 being Rational. I don't know how to view past data for a specific unit, so that's the overall team usage rate.
@@jamiekb9v thats probably just a lot of people sticking to what they know and have used for the last 2 years. Most people don't change stuff that still works for them.
@luminous3558 I mean the much more obvious explanation is that Neuv, currently the most popular on-fielder by a wide margin, is monopolizing Furina. If there is a Raiden team which performs similarly and doesn't use Furina, most people will just go with that.
I think the argument about people sticking to what they know is generally over-played. Neuv saw very quick adoption, and in the abyss where Nahida National was good that also saw very quick adoption. People will generally just go along the path of least resistance, whether that involves change or not.
74 cr is bottom of the barrel?
As raiden main (C0R0) that has tried her multiple teams in multiple abyss, here's my takes on raiden team that feels the best.
- AoE unstaggered enemy: chevreuse and hyper variant
- Single target-ish (light AoE) unstaggered enemy: rational (over-vape) variant
- Heavy AoE staggered enemy: aggravate and miko variant
- Single target-ish (light AoE) staggered enemy: double hydro and hyperbloom variant (including qiuckbloom)
Note: imo all of them are work well in multi-wave except hyper variant. Also all of this is just how it feels, i can't back it up with dps calc.
The problem with Raiden, unlike Miko, is that her ICD is wack as fuck, meaning she doesn't aggravate for shit, meaning Aggravate/spread is garbage for her. This is why she either wants Hyperbloom, which is based off of blooms, not ICD, or classic hypercarry, which focuses on raw damage and buffs, which Chev gives and the classic benny, Sara, Kazuha.
@@marcusaurelius4777 that's why i put aggravate teams on heavy AoE scenario. Raiden big hit box + double nuking (if you play with miko) is very good in AoE and Multiwave. Prime example of this is when abyss 3.x (i forgot lol) with 2 wave whoperflower + 2 wave of doritos robot or with multiple wave of riffhounds. Ofc this is just my experience of 2 years playing her, not concrete evidence or anything.
Have you tried xiangling instead of bennett for multiwave? It feels so much better to me and like one of her best teams
I have Raiden c3 r1 and Furina c2 so for me what I do is do Raiden, Sara, Furina, Jean. In this case for me since Furina is c2 I do get higher damage than using Raiden Sara, Kazuha, Bennett.
Sara is c6 with Skyward Harp + Noblesse so she provides a somewhat decent attack boost as well. Another point to note is it also depends on the weapon, The Catch falls quite behind if you don't use Engulfing Lightning in non Bennett teams.
But yeah, depends on what level of investment is in characters.
The best part about Rational is that it's the only National variant where you only *need* to see Bennett the boring for maximum 2s, because you don't need to battery Xiangling, because Ei is batterying Xiangling. It's what makes Rational the only playable National.
Bennett the boring 😭😭
You should love the aggravate, hyperbloom, or the double hydro variants then. You see Bennett a whopping 0 seconds.
i'm sad I didn't comment about kazuha double hydro, that team is so under rated and i dont see it anywhere. can comfortably less than 130 er on yelan and XQ and it steam rolls everything.
also at 6:50 you could just use bennett and XQ into raiden, force the swap (Raiden c2+) and while bennett burst is still up use XL. that rotation is more comfortable against the ruin guard chamber but works well
Damage distribution profile and time to kill (get to hp threshold/breakpoint) definitely have an enormous impact.
If anything, I find it is less of an issue with the teams itself but with the content we have in game. The Spiral Abyss just doesn't allow enough skill expression with the different teams. For example, if we had elevated platforms with enemies that can't be cc'd and spread out then that changes quite a lot compared to one big enemy that stands right in front of you.
I can say it here right, i personally find Raiden's C2 a bad design for the current game state.
Cause it's good at a situation but if that is not the case then it feels ass.
So something like C2 Raiden's true potential is if there's enough high HP threshold contents, more end game stuff with extremely high HP pool enemies of wave or bosses that are 5-10M HP.. If game changes that way even in one certain more or place, then chars like C2 Raiden will get to shine truly and show its actual worth.. There will not be the typical issues either which r seen rn on most places like a 500k enemies wave or open world domain runs, part of the rsn why i disliked it a lot when i used a friend's C3R1 Ei on arti domain one day to use his resin when he asked. It just felt ass simply ...
TGS's recent vid on C2 Raidem exclusively mentioned many points of which i myself used to have on her... Very good vid imo,right on my takes
I'd say how much i like, I'd put Raiden's C2 in A tier currently.
But there's very possible chances i can take it to SSS even in future,only if game shapes that way...
The con is good but the way game is designed and Raiden's kit is designed,it contradicts with itself for the time being unless a shift of situations
I've been wanting for this one, thanks Jamie!!
I hope this answered some of your questions!
6:35 what does crit have to do anything with constellation
raidens rest of the burst also gets affected by c2 so even first hit doesnt crit there is going to be a big difference
to show it wasn't an optimised run with lots of retries. the lwk video I showed managed to do it at c0
It's kinda weird no one ever calculates dmg profile, i guess it's because it would be hard but theoretically it should be the integral of the inverse function of the integral function of dmg as a function of time multiplied by the team's dps
It's not because it's hard. It's because at KQM artifact investment. You often won't have the damage output for damage profile to matter much. It's actually very easy to identify both when and where damage is coming from and how its distributed. The reason speedruns don't translate to casual play is how much better the average runner's artifacts are than casuals. What was the last speedrun you watched with sub 200 CV?
@@azureaurelia5381 there are a lot of teams that can reach one rotating enemies with keqingmains investment, and dmg profile is still very significant even at 2 rotations which is most teams if you have done the calcs, it can translate to around 15-20% more true dps
the only way dmg profile wouldn't matter is if you cannot even 36* and need infinte amount of rotations, in which the curve converge to y=x
I know plenty of calculus, but that came out as nonsense. If you have "dmg as a function of time" you already have the thing you are looking for.
What's more weird to me is people not calculating any team versatility metrics. I don't care about frontloaded damage very much. If you are clearing in a few or less rotations anyway, you are already clearing on time. Team versatility is more about clearing on time, every time, with minimal investment.
i gotta say the quality in voice feels a lot better, that mic upgrade coming in clutch, awesome video
Little sad Raiden Quickbloom never came up. Something like Raiden w/ Scarlet Sands, Sara/Nahida, Furina, Baizhu would probably be pretty insane, wouldn't it?
Doing this with Fischl, Furina, and Baizhu. I think it’s just slightly stronger than Yelan/Furina.
The "hardcore" vs "casual" argument for furina doesn't really make sense. It is more the case of speedrunning vs regular gameplay.
Furina's animation length doesn't make her especially good for speedrunning, but she is definitely BiS for most of the carries for regular gameplay.
Kinda true. Is someone not hardcore if they instead choose to use weaker characters to clear the abyss as fast as possible, instead of using the fastest clearing teams? Speedrunning specifically is a different category of play. And it has various restrictions because people wouldn't be interested in it otherwise(it would just be whale showcases).
as covered around 12:07 if not DPS, then BIS for what? other non-furina teams can have grouping, or damage reduction, or rotational flexibility, or better scaling with artifact/weapon improvements. there's many quality of factors not speedrun related that regular players will still value
@@jamiekb9vBut furina indeed is the BiS for majority of the carries DPS wise. Grouping is only really relevant in speedruns, cuz it is usually present only in 1/3 floors, sometimes not even that. Not to mention that teams with furina also scale better with investment because you have buffs for your whole team, instead of a constant sub dps like xingqui that does nothing to raise your ceiling aside from his damage.
If you are talking about casuals overhyping something, it's definitely grouping and DR. No hardcore player actually cares about DR.
@@legendnbg97 Debatable whether she's BIS for the majority of carries, not true for Raiden, Freeze prefers kokomi, Hu Tao prefers Xq + Yelan core, Nilou highly prefers Kokomi, for Navia its benett and Xiangling pretty much, Liney wants mono, Hyperbloom requires high app and so on.. Don't get me wrong in teams where Furina is good she's exceptional but in every other team she's either a sidegrade or a downgrade unless you pump some Constellations into her.
At C6 you can put Furina anywhere and she will be pretty much the best support since she doesn't need a healer anymore to top up her buff and does a very respectable damage even if you bring her as a support but I doubt many would have her C6.
@@Rhyhmx She is BiS for hu tao, linney and navia without a question, hyperbloom depends, because alhaitham hyperbloom is still better with furina, but the regular hyperbloom isn't.
Hell even for freeze, you need to pull for kokomi and shenhe, 2 supports that are incredibly niche, to even be competitive with furina+charlotte, so that is really a non argument. If anything, new players are lucky that they don't have to pull for shenhe and kokomi anymore.
I have a very well invested (all crowned, great artifacts) rational team but no 5 star weapons and my Raiden is C0 - there is absolutely no way I could reach the 9:47 timer... if someone doesnt have C2 raiden it doesnt really matter if the setup is quicker, its gonna take a whole rotation with either team. on the other hand I've seen less invested players not even hit the pma hp treshold at all in one rotation with rational... at which point it starts feeling really bad to play bc all your damage is locked to your bursts (similar to hyper), whereas double hydro still has furinas and yelans skill to finish up if one rotation isnt enough. its also worth keeping in mind that double hydro performs the worst in the first chamber bc you're full hp so you can't frontload as much fanfare as in later chambers. and it doesnt matter this abyss but you wont have to deal with enemies getting knocked back by overload. Soo even though they are pretty similar dmg wise I think I would mostly prefer to play double hydro.
this video is so perfect I got raiden and so many videos say the same things but rarely specify what they mean while I understood everything you said here
Would have liked to see you talk about Fischl in place of Raiden for national team, when you talked about the anemos, she fits really well
oh sorry that passed my mind since I don't think any questions mentioned fischl
I find the Raiden, Jean, Yelan/c6 Sara, Furina teams very easy to use and play. Basically you get less restarts with this team so long as you meet the dps requirements. So if you just want to clear the abyss comfortably then it will serve you well. Just make sure you switch to attack goblet instead of electro damage goblet.
The damage being distributed between the team mates is actually an advantage here because you are not tied to your bursts doing the damage which is useful when you only have to finish off a weak enemy. Another advantage is that you do not have to be inside Bennett circle to use it. In addition to this you are not pyro infused so you are less vulnerable to being one shot from a melt or vape.
In my experience Raiden hyper is one of the worst Raiden teams to play because it is too front loaded on the damage which is often a massive weakness. In fact I often use c6 Fischl instead of c6 Sara with my c2 Raiden because I really want that sub dps damage. Sara burst and Raiden burst is often just overkill or just barely not enough. It is great when you can 1 rotate the boss but it really really sucks when the boss is at 5% hp and now you have no damage.
yes as mentioned in the vid i use double hydro for artifact farming and think its good for casual abyss clears. i just think raiden national and chevreuse overload are also good for casual abyss! and chevreuse doesn't need bennett's circle either.
edit: oh yeah and how could i forget hyperbloom! another for easy comfortable clears (if u can play without a healer or use kokomi/zhongli/baizhu)
@@jamiekb9v IMO Rational is not as comfy as Furina Raiden because of the overload that happens on some floors as well as no circle impact.
EM Raiden also has the issue of requiring a defensive character and I find switching artifacts really annoying. Especially if you have a Kuki ready to go who fulfils both rolls.
Hyper can feel horrible yes I love the nuke damage though and the skill expression of switching rotations, however I believe the best casual raiden team for me is chevreuse raiden c6 sara and xiangling as it helps her still do so much damage and feels so much better in multiwave.
I needed this so bad. I’ve been nuking with Raiden Chev Hyper hitting 700K.
So much analysis and perspective that I was missing though!
The thing is that
PMA first phase doesn't have that much HP to keep up with C2+ Ei Hypercarry's damage.
At C0/C1 Ei, with C2+ Furina, C0 R1 Yelan, C0 Jean, this team clears it faster than even Ei national.
If we took a higher HP enemy into consideration, then even at C2, this team will be faster.
His whole answer is based on " I have C2, see how it clears? I'm sure that C0 can do the same and reach that (invented by who?) threshold". And he is the one shitting on sheets, meanwhile saying things like that...
What is your opinion on a well invested raiden quickbloom? To me it looks like a fair compromise between sustain and burst. I've been getting some success with raiden, nahida, furina and bhaizu all c2 except furina c1
This team is incredible yet I never see anyone talk about it. It has the sustained dps and frontloaded damage. For example, It easily hits the 9:47 threshold that they used against the PMA.
This is my favorite Raiden team to actually play, although as someone who has C3R1 Raiden, C2 Nahida, C2R1 Furina, C0 Baizhu I can only attest to its performance at higher cost. The average DPR is definitely higher than her C3R1 hypercarry and more importantly it has decent damage with E-only for when chambers fail to line up well with your Raiden Q uptime. Baizhu also has powerful healing with high uptime and no baggage of circle impact or self-pyro. And there is no VV setup or uptime to worry about, it is not a team where the order or timing of your setup matters very much besides TTDS if you use it.
That said, the setup time is too long for it to be a truly competitive speed-run team, and it doesn't actually condense its damage that well. It's much easier for me to hit the PMA threshold with hypercarry for instance, and even in other bosses it is pretty consistently several seconds slower.
Outside of speed-running, Nahida also has the same debuff issue as VV with having to swap in to apply her E to newly spawned enemies. But perhaps the biggest weakness is just the fact that it uses so many versatile characters, it really limits your team building options for the other side. I think in these respects, the new Chev teams compare favorably, but they also have their own issues with how Q-locked the damage is and overload complicating things vs some chambers.
While I agree that the Furina/Yelan teams for the most part arent really suited for speedrunning(mainly 4 cost brackets), you did forget to mention a huge downside of rational which is the knockback from the overloads making some aoe content trash to play against. Its also more circle impact dependent for Bennett's attack buff which is a factor for some chamber layouts. Also not really speedrun related, Bennett gives you a pyro aura making it easier to get one shot in previous abysses like the cons beast and even triple kenki can be an issue too. Multi wave content for hypercarry is also an issue to deal with too. It has the same drawbacks with reswirling as furina/yelan except the team is solely reliant on raiden's personal damage after her Q frontload and having sara to deal enough damage to one shot the first wave.
Using PMA as a benchmark is also not really fair too given it's a boss designed around her national/hypercarry teams in mind to promote Raiden. You basically see a trend where PMA is reran alongside raiden or yae banners.
Also it is crucial to explicitly highlight the significance of investment into Xiangling, whether through the use of of SOSS or r5 wavebreaker(with highly optimized artifacts), weapons used in the national teams in your CN cup excel sheet. Not mentioning this can be misleading when comparing rational teams with other teams esp since within the context of CN speedrunning rules. It's a huge reason on why the 4 cost rational guy from the CN cup is getting faster or comparable timings to your clear times even tho his raiden is only c0 and adhering to the ''dmg card equals gold rule''(technically making yours a 6-cost team). Xiangling contributes significantly to the team's damage output(more than raiden iirc) so pumping her with more investment is why rational teams are successful in speedrunning competitions. Her ER reqs is also a lot lower in raiden teams which lets her get away with using SOSS and that's her BIS for dmg iirc.
Lastly, I strongly disapprove of the personal call-out directed at TGS , it is highly toxic and brings unnecessary hate towards him. Using his face and video as a direct jab is in poor taste and only stirs up drama. His guides are not targeted even towards CN speedrunning in the first place and is more towards a regular audience to follow. Having high and reliable damage is more important is a lot more important for a general audience to follow esp since the cost factor does not factor in how hard it is to get constellation 6 on 4 stars.
did you manage to try the new chevreuse overload teams? they can be played without bennett for no circle impact and long buff/debuff uptimes for *both* great casual play QoL and also can perform for hardcore players trying speedruns!
also in regards to CN cup, national doesn't really need that much advantages to be a strong team. Actually my recent vid using it in the last abyss didn't have the most insane investment yet I was still getting better results than furina (and the reason i also recorded furina-bennett was cause furina-yelan-jean was much weaker than both)
so whilst I agree that raiden national has advantages in competitions, it also can perform well outside of those which I think I do try to demonstrate. Plus xingqiu's damage reduction is nice 😅
@@jamiekb9v 05:18 09:34 The comparison you made here was with sara/kaz, im not talking about the chev variant.
Again my comparison was not with furina, its against the CN guy with cost in account. You are using a c2 raiden are you not? With 3 dmg buff cards? That's 4 cost vs 6 cost. To make things easier to understand, your XL was vaping for 50k plus the other guy was doing 70k plus with a higher crit rate and he still got a similar if not better clear time compared to yours without the c2 raiden to carry. There's a good reason why the sucrose national variant scored better compared to raiden variants in the excel sheet.
You can promote the national/kaz hypercarry variants thats not the issue. Its more of the fact that you didnt mention any of their downsides making your stance a lot more bias than it should be. Esp with the citation to the excel sheet or CN speedrun competitions which is honestly not applicable for regular players to follow. You need to make a big disclaimer when it comes to those kind of comparisons as its not good enough evidence on its own to say which team is better or not. All it says is which teams performs best in CN speedrun and for which abyss cycle.
> it is crucial to explicitly highlight the significance of investment into Xiangling,
> not mentioning this can be misleading
Are we watching the same video? 7:12 Plus he already mentioned this in the spreadsheet itself.
Also it should be absolutely valid to show the calcs source if you're discussing it. Even necessarily I'd say. If pure mention (without calling out) is "hate, toxic and drama", maybe you shouldn't share calcs on the internet. Just saying.
I think you're misunderstanding the TGS section, which is not a callout. He is an (online) friend I personally asked him if I could use his calcs in my video just to explain my point which he gave me permission for. In fact he also thinks raiden double hydro is overrated and our discussions were inspiration when making this video.
Can confirm what Jamie is saying
With your strategy/optimization, how is Ganyu performing in current meta? Any updated guides on Ganyu? Getting consistent C6 melts on Ganyu is also pretty rare (even rarer with her burst active) and almost none of the Ganyu guides cover either of these. Aliss also hasn't been making much Ganyu speedruns recently so maybe it's getting harder.
Thanks for the all the investigation and detailed discussion in this video !
I really don't like team comparison as it is really content dependent (like in the current abyss double/mono Hydro sucks to play against Hydro tulpa while pyro gets huge buff notably Xiangling which can hit twice per pyro tornado against huge ennemies and vape against hydro tulpa). But it was still interesting to follow.
oh hey thats me. great video as always jamie
I really like your point trying translate theory into practice just like c1 shenhe
Thanks for the banger video jamie! Your content is such good wide coverage: high level play; teambuilding, theory _and_ its translation to practice; what's comfortable to play and what difficult things are worth learning.
Hiiii!! I'm loving your videos!!😍 I want to play Nilou sooo much after watching your videos! Can't wait for her re-run💙💙💙
thanks! i'll make more nilou vids when she reruns!
@@jamiekb9v That's great!! Can you please show the difference between Barbara and Kokomi on the new video? I have some friends that like Nilou, but are going to skip her because they don't have Kokomi... I also don't have her 😭😭😭
@@isabelamaforte3214 Also waiting for jamie's content when Nilou reruns, I swear by his written guide about her, excellent doc
youtube bright mode NOWAYING
it took you 9 minutes to explain why 1 burst animation does more damage in a short time vs 4 burst animations...
raiden - baizhu - fischl - kazuha is one of my fav teams for c0 raiden. little setup time for supports, super easy to play and just flows very well. crushes in st and baizhu keeps you immortal and you're not tied to any circle impact!!! sure it's nothing to write home about when it comes to speedrunning and stuff but it's really fun
I keep hearing different things about optimal Raiden combos and I’m a bit confused. Inheard at some point that N3C*3+N1C is her best combo, then I heard that N3CD*3+N4 is her best, and now I heard you saying that rapid N1CD is the highest damage and highest aoe. Which combo is really the best for a traditional Raiden Hypercarry?
N1CD or N1C 100% (dash helps but a very small difference) This has been extensively tested in practice in game
Ok thx man
Thanks for addressing my question in the video? Is there any merit to playing some kind of hyper bloom/aggravate hybrid team where raiden is played on field? What would the team and artifact recommendation be?
glad to know that single cycle that boss is a competition speedrun thing
cause I have to do a second cycle with my Hu Tao which was supposed to be a great single taget character
First of all, really great video. As C3 haver I sadly have to skip Chevy but I put her into optimizer anyway, and even at c0 she does outperform kazuha in hyper raiden team even with 5star on bennett and sara. You lose a bit of resis shred uptime as sara will be the last overload trigger, but the extra healing and pyro particles helps facetanking and bennett ER needs. At c6 she crushes kazuha completely as you can get one healing tick during raiden burst animation and stacking during the rest of the uptime, thus smothing your DPS curve until the end where buffs normaly fall off. Great buff to raiden hyper against bosses and pretty much her best team for dmg per screenshot, against mobs kazuha will always be better.
6:29 82k charged attacks still, C2 is a massive boost and C0 Raiden can't even dream of that unless you are critfish miracle
it's possible, lwk (the youtuber I linked) manages to do it at c0 every abyss PMA comes
@@jamiekb9v as I said, unless you are a critfish miracle. My C0R1 Raiden is top 2%, and her hypercarry team can be summarized with the phrase “the power of 3-4 rotations”
@@jamiekb9v like I SAW people performing miracles with a lot of characters, but realistically nobody should ever count that they can do the same
I personally find Furina teams for Raiden much more comfy than national. I kinda find Raiden not doing that much damage without Furina buff. I don’t use double hydro though, it’s just Furina, Jean, Bennett and Raiden. It’s effectively sun fire Raiden team
Yeah, I think he's too deep into speedrunning to give fair recommendations for more casual play.
Hello jamie. Do you think furina is underwhelming? I kept hearing that she's good, but i struggle to find teams where shes an improvement in. Most of the times the teams i put her in i either get slower or similar clear times...i paired her up with healers as i should be. Not sure if im doing something wrong but im kinda bumped about her
she is great in a bunch of teams for sure! but I think it's been overexagurated how many teams are improved by her, and often teams losing a ton of QoL and utility trying to fit her in without even gaining damage to warrant it. so i'm not surprised you experienced that, but it does ultimately come down to which DPS you have?
I thought I'm the only one that find her underwhelming. I did the right rotation with the right build too, but I still don't see any improvement. I've tried her with different teams but i still don't notice any difference in teams without her
@@kiya_zra the only teams I've noticed a drastic difference with were mono hydro and obvious Neuvillette teams, and to some extent Eula's. Although tbh I don't have most of the dps in which I heard she's an upgrade in. I wish they had done her kit more justice tbh.
@@jamiekb9v raiden, al haitham, neuvillette, eula, ganyu, ayaka.
Neuvillette is the exception, of course. It's probably reasonable to assume it's because I don't have most of the dps she's supposedly an improvement paired with(?)
In my experience, Furina is good because she's a good option in a lot of teams, even if she's not the BiS. If you already have your DPS best teams, she's going to be equal or slightly worse than most of them. However, if you don't, she's going to be an improvement in most cases.
For instance, I hadn't played Ayaka in Abyss in a long time because I don't have Shenhe. But Furina kinda fixes that issue since she's good enough to play Ayaka team and have a decent experience, even if it's probably worse than her premium.
There are some characters that really appreciate her (Klee does, Neuvillette and Eula do too from what I've heard ?) but if the character already had a clear BiS team, I suppose she will feel underwhelming compared to it.
She is certainly getting overhyped from what I've seen. She's good because she can work with a lot of characters, not because she's the best for everyone (that would be a bit too much in my opinion)
Nice vid, I will now just continue play her OG teams and use Furina on the other team
Great video.. I'm a new Raiden owner, and got Chevy to C6 cos she's just so damn fun. I'm not big on min-maxing, but she's made me want to invest a lot into her.
I mean even if you're a casual you'll get something decent running at some point I've spent so much time and resin into emblem so I have a very good set for engulfing, 70 cr 140 CD while being at 275 ER for engulfing to fully max out it's passive
About furina batchesting issue: I'm not surprised.
I kept saying during beta that people will see the big buff and get baited.
14:32
She is the weakest archon to be released, even on this video there is other buffers that do her job better without the need for a healer, her DPS isn't that amazing either.
Kind of lost interested on the game at this point since this is the direction they are going with, underwhelming buffer that can't compete with current ones while also having downsides.
@@areweevensomeoneoutthere the fact that youre just... WRONG???? Wth weakest buffer my ass what game have you been playing
Not weakest, underwhelming for all the hoops you have to do to get the max amount. even at C1 a well built C0 Kazuha is usually better on teams where he can swirl.@@yaemikoshandler
On the topic of pulling Chevreuse and already having C2 Raiden, I tried pulling for her and got C3 Raiden in 48 pulls... then got Chevreuse 1 pull after. Take from that what you will
Isnt the jean furina team alot weaker on first rotation due to burst healing and how fanfare stacks, which is why it performed worse?
Also because it's a c0 team which means it's damage is primarily focused on supports and buffing them so at c2 it's prob more worth it to buff raiden as much or more than the rest of the team which is why her best c2 teams are a lot different than her best c0 teams?
Raiden also has lot of %dmg in her base kit plus artifacts already so Furina doesn't buff her so much.
@@marcevivi8581 Yeah true. Thats why bennet is soo OP with raiden. She have big %dmg in her kit due to her passive that converts ER into %Electro damage
20:36 What does buffing Kazuha do?
setups buffing kazuha with saras charge atk are usually done if you need the absolute highest amount of damage per rotation. like for example a tanky boss in f12 chamber 3
however often it can be skipped since it's not a huge increase in damage for most players
I never liked rational since both my xingqiu and xiangling are still c0 despite being a day 1 player i just can't pull these 2 and they feel atrocious to play without cons (even when crowned) i'll stick with c3 r1 hypercarry raiden + c6 sara it was worth the investment i'm also f2p👏👏
Keep it up ❤
Great content
Thank you! Will do!
My recent fav team has been Raiden national but with Furina replacing XQ it's been really strong.
Great analysis. In my opinion Jean cannot replace kazuha. In your video you use the example of PMA. But if we consider aoe type situations, raiden's E paired with kazuha is just too op and the DMG does make a huge difference. We just need more healers before we go back to Jean.
I'm not sure Raiden hyper c0 can actually one-phase the first part of PMA as advertised in this video. Not having c2 nerfs more than just your nuke, and I've watched many average raidens simply not do enough damage.
It's 100% possible, as lwk (look on YT or reddit) has done it twice (once in 3.3 w/ an impactful-although not crazy-moon blessing and once again now in 4.3 w/ a useless blessing).
But no, it's not something the average Raiden can do and not "feasible" if you don't have at least EL + Aquila/Mist Bennett.
@@sweatymobilegamer784 yea that’s what I’m saying lol you need investment.
Jamie, where i can find the spreadsheet when you show the teams with different abyss durations?
I do wanna try raiden hyper carry cuz invested a lot for c2 raiden, the thing is I didn't got c6 sara so idk who to replace for her placce as she's the main piece in the team. That's why I still use the first one cuz I have them all built up
I used her this abyss with Xianling Bennett and Zhongli to get the Hydro Boss on 12-3, she is flexible AF and you only need maybe 3 brain cells to look at the enemies and change up her teams accordingly
Agreed with the flexibility. Can throw her in many teams and have her benefit them, the opposite of someone like Nilou who is very powerful in a certain team but not flexible
Is N1C really better for hyper? KQM's guide currently states that it outdoes 3N3C + N1C only if you fit 6 full strings in, which I'm pretty sure is no easier than the other combo while completely devouring stamina. The only advantage I see is the larger hitboxes. Lwk even used n3c in their PMA speedrun.
idk why he did that exactly in the other video, but his recent upload looks like hes doing n1c
to be fair sometimes the dmg difference doesn't really matter as much
22:08 what website is this to see speedrunning records?
8:31 you coud have had a Raiden e between there for sure no?
Raiden at c0 does not share the same role with hutao/ayaka.
She's more like a battery to recharge everyone's energy to prepare for the next rotation. You can force her to a hypercarry role, but it's not worth it.
The question is invalid to begin with.
.
Also, Why even mention hutao if xianling exists. XL can do all hutao can and more.
I've tried using Raiden, Yelan, Furina and Jean, but to me using Fischl instead of Raiden and with Yelan on field felt better and defeats bosses a bit faster (I think it's because Oz can deal damage straight away).
It's a squishy team but it's almost fully ranged and has a decent amount of movement with Yelan's skill and Fischl's burst, plus Jean's C2
What is the spreadsheet you show multiple times that compare teams (like at 22:13)
For me C0 Raiden's sole purpose in the rational team is restoring her allies energy to achieve that flawless rotations. Also she can dish out non-negligible amount of damage herself
But for me I'm having fun with a Raiden aggravate team with nahida, zhongli and dendro mc (I'm just coping because I still don't have chevreuse)
Do Raiden Chevruse teams need a constellation 4 or C6 Chev? I already have C6 Sara and C4 Bennett, wondering on pulling.
C0 is enough, but on Raiden anything that isen´t C6 doesn´t add much
You didn't account for freedom from circle impact in double hydro teams
did you use atk sands and goblet on raiden for double hydro? at least goblet. cause my c0 raiden crits for 145k in that team, which isnt as high as hypercarry, but your c2 raiden shouoldve hit harder
on the Furina yelan team at 9:00, to be fair to the team you didn't swirl electro there, which explains the 164k somewhat. In general I agree with the point that c0 furina is being overrated though.
I did, the electro reappears a split second before jeans burst does damage. you can see the 1781 on the top of the screen
@@jamiekb9v I'm pretty sure that's a raiden E hit, no? There's no swirl text on the jean Q, and it seems to line up with raiden's non crit E damage earlier in the rotation, plus there's the raiden E slice animation above the 1781 but only one purple number.
@@SnipeOSRS yep it swirled, I even went in game again to test. its unfortunate but c2 raiden critting for only 160-170k is not unusual in the team
@@jamiekb9v That's wild. I was expecting 225-250kish. My own experience has me critting for 330k (75% crit rate so no fishing) But I suppose c3r1 raiden and c3+ furina just increase it by nearly double over a c2(r0?) Raiden then.
As someone who went to from c0 r1 tao to c1 on the neuvillete banner why do ppl say that jump cancelling is so bad I’ve felt that the c1 combos like N2C10 or n1c12 are much harder to pull off, and I’d still say a c0 r1 or even dragon bane hutao is akin to a c0 r1 raiden hyper
I wouldn't compare c0 raiden hyper but c0 raiden national, which feels so much smoother than c0 hu tao with less margin for error (running out of stamina, hu tao randomly flying across the map, getting staggered). IMO the quality of life is worlds apart
@@jamiekb9v oh ok I understand now you were talking about how easy it is to pull off yeah I’d agree w that
@@YaeElectroCeiling how the hell are ppl only hitting 6 or 8😭
I had her for like 3 days and I’ve already concluded I’d rather just use Raiden National since it’s amazing and less clunky.
I’m trying to get C2 Raiden and have her at C1 right now. I was trying to get 3 more copies of Sara for C6, but instead I got SIX copies of Chevreuse before I got a single copy of Kujo Sara… it’s so unfortunate.
That's the best could happen honestly. C6 chevereuse is insane for Raiden's Hypercarry team. Better than c2 kazuha.
5:17 showing just the PMA chamber, a boss that favors the old teams, is an example of the problem with speedrunning as an argument. It consists of tunnel-visioned scenarios cherry-picked by players.
The most this shows is that the Furina team is not the best matchup in a single chamber with PMA, which is fine. Worse matchups are natural, you wouldn't use Tulpa to show that hydro teams are worse for instance.
Frontloaded damage gets batchested a lot but it is not always a good thing, the video even touches on this.
At 4:56 it is presented as a good thing, but later at 21:09 it is a problem? This is a contradiction that needs to be clarified.
Also Bennett circle is a pretty established negative term so getting rid of it has got to count for something right (you would have Jean circle but it should be less problematic)
my double hydro furina teams were also unable to one rotate in 4.2 abyss vs asimon, chicken, and coppelia. in fact in my "raiden national furina vs xingqiu" video I actually had to replace yelan jean with bennett xiangling to have a better chance at it.
@@jamiekb9v in 4.2 abyss you should have been lacking furina talents. Though I don't doubt C0 furina teams can lag in one rotation scenarios, all this bossing is what I mean by tunnel visioning.
Disappointed you glossed over the contradiction
Sooo what is her strongest team
Relative to the cost, it's Raiden+Chevreuse variantes, you can scope for C2/C3 Raiden and may grab C6 Chevreuse and C6 Sara along the way. You then just need a C5 Bennett or Xiangling and you get a very competitive. Raiden Furina double hydro has more DPS, higher vertical investment potential and is much more comfortable to use but it's god damn expansive to boot.
Can you go more in depth about c2 vs c6 Sara? How viable is c2 and can I play conventional raiden hyper w/ c2 Sara and c2 raiden?
What if Jean has c2? Raiden feels amazing when she's slicing faster.
i actually have jean at c4 and was using it throughout the video!
Hi jamie, if I am considering starting speedrunning, do you have any suggestions for me?
i recommend joining my discord there's lots of people that can help get started on speedrunning
i have c1 who tao, but i had her at c0 for so long that i still jump cancel because i find dash cancel annoying -_-
How is Raiden's double hydro with Furina and Jean at high investment with cons compared with Raiden's classic Hyper?
Say Raiden C3,R1, Yelan C2R1, Furina C6R1, Jean C6. Would that still be worse than her classic Hyper with C6 Sara and a C2,R1 Kazuha?
Your videos are extremely F2P-limiting. I'm mind-blown that you have a C2 Raiden.
im not 100% sure about c6 furina but anything lower yeah c3r1 raiden hyper is still her premier team
My fav team is raiden, c2 nahida, c2 yelan, last spot is whoever i feel like, sometimes Zhongli, sometimes baizhu, sometimes bennet. I wish i hve furina tho
She’s coming back soon should be in 4.6
@@tinocabral4201 and hope not on chlorinde or arlechino banner🙃i heard furina c2 is also good too.
@@harizu_5182 yes her c2 is extremely good some regard it as the best in the game cuz of how much it buffs the team BUT she’s already fantastic at c0 so if you want other characters don’t feel forced to go for cons
Jamie ur not underplaying Raiden double hydro to shill the kokomi version are u? Cause the general opinion of Raiden mains is that it’s a pretty good team
no not to shill kokomi lol. but i think many raiden mains are potentially lost in the sauce overhyping the new thing and forgetting how good the old teams were.
think about it logically: they were using raiden hyper, then one patch later double hydro was her new best team, then all of a sudden another patch later chevreuse overload is her new best team? really? it's a bit flip floppy to me, especially when we can a-b test in abyss instead of relying on theory.
@@jamiekb9v yes but the thing is, Raiden furina was actually slept on for a significant time by tc and it was only talked about by casual players. Like it really just went under the radar until people realized how good and convenient to play it is. So I don’t think the trend argument really works here. Certain teams like national are popular because of a combination of power and ease of use, and that’s exactly where Raiden double hydro fits in. As for chev team, unlike furina she doesn’t have a big poll of team options so ofc people would be interested in her synergy with Raiden. Which I may is rather intuitive.
@@jamiekb9v but your test didnt prove much since you only did 1 room that favored quick burst dps, double hydro has a slower ramp up but eventually catches up depending on the enemy.
@@taikobo6943 yes I agree it was slept on espeically for casual and convenient play 100%, but I think that's only half of the discussion whereas many people are trying to also hype it's DPS calcs which I think is going a bit too far.
Luckily I also did cover raiden furina teams a few times in my previous videos, so I made sure not to overlook it
@@jamiekb9v fair enough, calcs were always short of being reliable.
Sorry if the first comment sounded too baity btw that was rather impulsive of me XP
First of all, forgive my English, I'm using a translator, I think the strongest point that the raiden has in its kit is the possibility of converting builds, for example, while I have the raiden on the team, my xingqiu there is energy with any weapon he uses, so instead of using the sacrifice, I exchange it for al haithan's weapon, since it increases attack, rate and critical damage, in this my xingqiu gains an average of 90% damage increase real, almost doubling just due to the existence of the raiden in the team
and, regarding the raiden taser, I think its value is locked in Jean's c2, which increases the raiden's attack speed, increasing its damage and indirectly increasing the damage of the team's real dps, yelan
Tbh I still love to play Raiden national cus it is comfortable to play plus it doesn't punish you hard if you mess up the rotation a bit or not having character burst ready to do the normal rotation (unless using xaingling brust before Bennett brust)
I also love Raiden triple pryo with cherveuse.
If I don't need dmg reduce from xingqiu I can just use xingqiu on other team and use cherveuse with Raiden.
Also the fact that I don't use Bennett and xaingling that much on other teams say a lot.
I sometime don't even use kazuha, xaingling and Bennett in abyss which are high pick rate on abyss.
But Raiden national is just so comfy to use and I don't think any other raiden team will out do this team (a part from hyper I guess)
Jamie, where do you get the excel sheet with the speed runs from bili bili ?
It’s from my single target cup video a few weeks ago
Please suggest i have C6 Sara, c2 cheveruse, xingling and c0 of furina, yelan, jean,raiden so which team should I build?? Will raiden chevi overload be better than furina??
will you ever talk about xiao? i've been seeing some insane speedruns from him this abyss just at c1
I tried Raiden double hydro and I was "where are my Raiden's damage?" So I came back to hyper raiden and I happier like that xP (i failed to get Chevreuse so I can't her with Raiden xP)
guys. I have raiden C2 + R1.. should I pull raiden C3 too? pity 63 rate on now..
I also have the same c2r1 and I will pull for her c3 coz I simp for her and I'm also f2p. Her c3 increase her damage by like 18%. So not much increase in dps tbh. It depends on you if you value it more than pulling for a new character
@@chonkhampter I did C3 her... But it's kinda useless in meta comp now... I build raiden full EM and use it in hyperbloom team, Exchange for kuki... And give her sign to xiangling..
Even tho she can deal 650k dmg in hyper raiden team..
I regret it... Damn it.. Should stay at C0...
@@chonkhampter I did C3 her... But it's kinda useless in meta comp now... I build raiden full EM and use it in hyperbloom team, Exchange for kuki... And give her sign to xiangling..
Even tho she can deal 650k dmg in hyper raiden team..
I regret it... Damn it.. Should stay at C0...
@@alifalfarras6522 you can use kuki r Fischl there tho. And use her as Hypercarry or put her in a Taser team. Of try someone else. So has a lot of versatility.
@@alifalfarras6522 different for me I guess. I pulled her on 4.3. got c2 while losing 2 50-50s. Got c6 Benny, c6 Sara and c6 Chevereuse. That's literally her best in slot Hypercarry team rn. I'm doing 600k initial burst slashes in abyss. And clear every floor within 15-20 secs with single enemies and 30 secs with multiple enemies. Don't have a problem. On the other side I run a team with Nahida, Furina, Kuki and Xinqiu. Which takes over 1 min to clear.
how much er does your raiden have in raiden national? I struggle with regaining her er tho I may spend too little time in my rotations?