Interesting how the UK’s thinking mirrors the USSR’s thinking with the Makarov. The USSR did drop the sub machine gun (or rather made the AK their sub machine gun) and then built simple blow back pistols in 9 mm Makarov - the smallest cartridge they felt they could get away with.
In the 70's, the USSR even adopted a 5.45 x 18mm cartridge for a Makarov-like pistol to match the caliber of the AK-74. I don't think it was very popular though, probably because it was only about as powerful as a 22LR.
@@dwaneanderson8039 It has a rather potent armour-piercing bullet though, and in any event it was designed to be easy to carry for the military top brass and easy to conceal for for plainclothes LE officers.
The 9mm Mak was a decent cartridge for the time in that it bridged the gap between 380 and 9mm Luger. Outdated by modern standards but not ineffective.
Like Jonathan say's its perfectly logical and valid. Particularly when you factor in how little shooting practice most pistol users in the military actually got, after all how much range time or training time are you going to give a tank crew to work on their pistol shooting? Realistically as little as possible because the chances of them needing the pistol are vanishingly small, and any training time on the pistol is taking them away from training in their main roles which is far more militarily useful. No point spending a week per year on a pistol range instead of spending it on tank gunnery... How many people issued a .45 could actually competently handle them?
And how they treat.people and there freedoms .. Ones started in communism and slowly trying to get better over 80-90 years the other started with kings to freedom back how to communism .. The.people are boned by both governmennts
The US military was also looking at changing pistols after WWII, and had a very vague inquiry out for a 9mm pistol, lighter and smaller than the 1911 (in part so it could also replace the .38 revolvers generally issued to pilots). The US RFI didnt even get to a formal test & competition program, IIRC, although I believe they did actually test the Colt and S&W offerings. The definitive difference between the "Commander" and the "Combat Commander" is the frame material - aluminum versus steel. As for handiness, I rather quickly switched from a full size 1911 to a Combat Commander, entirely due to the fact the ¾" difference in length was just enough that when i sat down, the muzzle didn't hit the seat - with a full length pistol, the muzzle would hit the seat about a half inch before my butt actually did, either shoving the gun up in the holster, or trying to shove the entire holster up (depending on holster design).
Correct, Colt created the Commander Model in 9mm specifically for the anticipated US military tests, as did Smith & Wesson with what later became the Model 39. When the actual tests failed to materialize Colt offered the Commander on the commercial market in .45ACP, 9mm, .38 Super and even 9mm Steyr (export only).
When I carried wearing an inside the waist band holster that 3/4" difference between the 2 pistols made a great deal of comfortable difference. And that fshion is better suited to the young and slim than the portly and senior.
I toured the stores of the Royal Armoury on a research trip in 2005…it was a high point in my life. I handled amazing firearms from the late 1400’s to modern(QE2 had recently donated her personal collection to them). Prototypes and variations, pattern weapons (I was looking for an officers fusil from the Revolutionary War). I would love to go back for more research and a curators tour. (Hey Jonathan…hint-hint, nudge-nudge, say no more…Monty Python…)
You lucky so and so! I build custom flintlock and percussion firearms and I'd love to wander the halls of the British firearm Museum. Found you imagine getting your hands on an oriental french club butt Buccaneer? That's my next personal build if I can find the time. I've already got the lock forged and a piece of wood laid out. I just need a pattern. I may have to do it by eye.
Pretty neat seeing an older 9mm 1911, normally that's a sort of gun reserved for competition only. It's nice seeing imo my favorite chambering to shoot for 1911's historical roots.
During WW2, Britain bought Argentine copies of the .45 1911 as an emergency buy. Churchill privately owned a .45 Colt 1911, & carried it on foreign visits during WW2. America toyed with going to 9mm in the early 1950s, hence Smith & Wesson developing the M39. Some S&W 39 ended up with British (undercover) Army officers in Belfast early 1970s.
I had a steel frame combat commander in 9mm. First gun I ever carried in a Miami special shoulder holster. I had 10 rd aftermarket magazines so it held plenty. Unfortunately I sold it years ago for one dumb reason or another. I’ve had five 1911s the 9mm was my favorite.
Some aluminium framed 1911s have exceeded 100,000 rounds, so wear isn't any more of an issue than with the steel framed versions. Oh & there are 8 round magazines readily available for the 1911s chambered in .45ACP (I use them for shooting practical pistol matches when over in the US).
Those 8 round .45 ACP magazines are a relatively recent development - the 1911 design GI magazines only hold 7 rounds. Back when I used to dabble in practical pistol, many courses of fire required mandatory reloads after no more that 7 shots, so that 1911 users would not be at a competitive disadvantage.
9mm type Z is a much higher impulse cartridge. While .45 produces your typical hefty .45 muzzle energy and push it doesn't beat the shit out of the the slide and frame like military 9mm does. That's why 1911 ally frames last.
I seem to recall mention that the Colt Commander and Smith and Wesson model 39 arise from a request from the US for a 9mm pistol for consideration post WW2.
Regarding 'hot' 9mm ammunition: Both NATO & Israeli 'Uzi' ammunition are sif=gnificantly more powerful than 'standard' 9x19 parabellum. There's a commercial offering, using a 60gr projectile which breaks 2,000fps!
My very first handgun here in the UK (when we could have them) was a Colt Combat Commander in .45" ACP Nickel plated. An excellent pistol and quite accurate. The factory hammer was a 'Bobbed' spur type. I made a knurled rounded military type hammer for it and used it quite successfully in Police Pistol competition 😊 sadly we can't be trusted with such firearms now here in the UK😢
In the 1980s, I had access to a club owned AMT Hardballer in .45 ACP. But I stayed away from .45 for my serious competition guns because UIT events were limited at .38 as a maximum calibre. Later on, I used to enjoy shooting the Police Pistol disciplines at Bisley but my best scores were obtained using S&W revolvers. Actually, some UK folk are still trusted to own breech loading cartridge handguns. In Northern Ireland they are still Section 1 items but on the mainland more specialised arrangements (e.g. under Sections 7.3 or 5 are required).
@derekp2674 It's a crying shame that UK pistol shooters were thrown to the wolves in the early 90s. But the shooting organisations wouldn't band together as a cohesive single organisation to fight the ban. Some viewed it as 'its not us or my discipline ' selfishness really and as we know they are coming for everyone!
While not my first handgun it was definitely my favourite. Like yours, mine was satin nickel with pachmayr grips. I replaced the factory trigger with a lighter match trigger. Still miss it, all these years later.
@@victuff9765 Indeed - I wrote letters to MPs back then, but the ~100,000 of us fighting the changes were considerably outnumbered by the ~7,000,000 who petitioned for the changes.
Still possible to pop over to somewhere like, say.. the Isle of Man and shoot some pistols there…. Ahem! Return Flight from London can be had from about £60.
This is the original commander, the "light" weight commander to be exact. This pistol was derived to replace the original officers pistol. First introduced in 1949 it was offered to the government/military and didn't go over well. Because it was actually too light and people don't like change. Let's go on, colt contacted Alcoa, an aluminum wheel manufacturer on this endeavor to help them tool up this new aluminum frame. So they came up with what you're holding in your hands. They made 3 calibers 9mm, super 38 and the 45acp. The first guns, the earliest weren't very accurate because of the headspacing issues. Later fixed on later guns. The hammer you're referring to is called the "ring hammer" the first of it's kind. Later seen on the deltas. Back to the effort to get this gun made. Colt went to great lengths to get this new light weight frame made. Which they would only tool these on certain days because they didn't want the aluminum alloy to taint the regular equipment in the original manufacturing processes. So for a couple days out of the week or weekend they would build these and then go back to normal operations by cleaning the equipment etc. That is a little history on this gun. Overall the commercial market would like it more than who it was tended for.
I met Jurek (Durek)? in Birmingham in the 1960's He had a small workshop in Mosely? and was making a single shot 22 target pistol. Very accurate, Popular in pistol clubs at the time, as most were indoor 20yd shoots using the Webley single shot. The Durek was a sliding block, striker fired gun I believe and a big step up from the hammer fired, awful trigger of the Webley.
The British Army acquired Walther P5 9mm pistols for personal defence/concealed carry. mainly for use in Northern Ireland. Double action so I guess the MOD went back to their original spec
We in the US do love the .45 It's kind of the American caliber. I think every American firearms collector has at least one .45 Even though, I personally collect .32s. I still have .45's because, America! 2A! F Yeah! Also, at the range, .45 is slow enough you can see the projectile going down range in proper lighting. It's like tossing spit balls that leave nearly 1/2 inch sized holes. It's kind of like our cars....
Who says that we're in love with the 45ACP? I have a star BM in 9 para that's amazingly like what you have on the table only heavier. Not to mention my Beretta92. When you don't have a lot of money, 9mm is an attractive choice over 45. I'm mean 380/9mm short is more expensive than 9 para. Its a logical choice.
I had a couple of Commanders that I bought back in the 60s, one in 9mm and one in 45 ACP. It was also available in 38 Super. The 9mm and 38 Super actually had 9 round magazines. One difference from the Government Model that you didn't mention is a shorter spur on the grip safety, much like on the original 1911.
1400fps= + 400 m/sec is hot +P+ smg type load’s. Orig pistol Luger/Para some 310-330 m/sec. 🇫🇮smg m/31 among first to use extra hot ammo.. Not for C-96 Mauser etc
I learned to shoot pistols from a holster using a Colt officer's model in 9mm, pretty that sure that is what it was called by Colt back in the 1960s but then swapped over to both Glock 17 and 19, the requirement being I had to be proficient to use a manual safety when drawing and firing the firearm, the Glock was used later for the anti-snagging properties of concealed carry. Ironically, I preferred the larger Glock 17 as I did not get slide bite from it while I did with the Glock 19! I have the scars on my right hand to prove it.
Thanks for sharing that interesting history. According to Wikipedia. the alloy framed S&W Model 39 was developed in 1954 for US trials but was then released commercially in 1955. The Model 39 further evolved into the steel framed Model 52 Master target pistol (chambered in.38 Special full wadcutter) and the alloy framed Model 59, with a high capacity magazine. In the early 1980s, I used a Model 39 as a cheaper alternative to a Model 52, because I liked the way its grip fitted my hand. I did not keep it very long though, as my example was not particularly reliable or especially accurate. Wikipedia also mentions that Georg Luger designed the 9x19mm cartridge in 1901 and that it was first adopted by German forces in 1904, for the Imperial German Navy's Lugers.
15:40 - the S&W Model 39…one of my must haves (eventually). Notable as the sidearm that Vasquez carried in Aliens, and Jonathan I know you’re a big Aliens fan too
The "definitely not a plug for my book" gag was pretty funny As someone actually joining the British army I think I might actually want to buy that book
The post-war single-stack Colt 9x19mm pistols had nine-round magazines, not eight, as stated in the video. This gave them two more rounds than the equivalent .45 ACP models.
The Commanders existence was due to the U.S. Army wanting to adapt captured German P38s after WW2 and the reaction of Congress. Needless to say the 1911 in 45 cal soldiered on for decades.
@@Skaramine The army quickly found out that no way would Congress allow the US Army to adapt captured nazi pistols. Walther or what was left of it then was not invited to offer a pistol for testing for possible acquisition orders.
The first semiautomatic pistol I ever owned was a 9mm 1911. Strange to think at one time not so long ago/before, that was a relatively progressive concept.
That said, 1911s were chambered in .38 Super during the 1920s, so the 9mm 1911 can be seen as a further evolution to chamber the most popular sub-machinegun cartridge of the 1950s.
The Browning 9mm HP the SAS handgun of choice for many years, its renowned combat proven reliability, and its magazine capacity were its selling point until the Glock, Sig, P229 were available
I'm amused at people who get worked up over pointing a firearm at the camera. I'm 100% certain that nobody has ever been injured by a bullet fired through the internet.
Yes, it’s pretty silly making that disclaimer. Anyone who is so disconnected from reality that they think pointing the gun at a camera is threatening someone should seek psychiatric help.
Going back many years, the 1911 was most always an open carry pistol, the .38 special Colt and S&W snubby revolvers were for concealed carry. But no better friend in the night table drawer. I use my Ruger 1911 for target range work, for concealed carry the Glocks are hard to beat.
Jonathan's attention to perception and discussion over historical pieces is well beyond the differences and details. I can only sit and admire the approach and the knowledge. 10:46 I can't. And we go into comforting music and the book. Wanna know how many thumbs down this video has today? 2 - two. Up is 1200+ I have never seen such a high rate. People. Aim your clicks.
Sitting here in my home watching this while handling a Tisas Carry import that I bought for evaluation as a base for a custom carry pistol. Alloy frame, bobbed rounded hammer, Bobtail grip framem. Downsides are some parts variance from US available custom parts and the grip safety is fairly upswept. Don't forget today, at least in the states that many .45ACP magazines are 8rd. capacity.
4:58 The ring-type hammer might also be described as a "rowel" hammer. The rowel term comes from cowboy footwear terminology. (A rowel is the somewhat circular and spikey part of a boot spur that pokes the cowboy's horse). Thanks for the presentation! I liked it a lot. :)
Regarding the unnamed S&W handgun, from everything I've been able to discern around the same time the US military was looking at 9mm handguns, including what would become the S&W 39, some manner of Walther P38 derivative, and the 9mm Colt Commander; the S&W was the front-runner (it is all around a very good handgun; mine feeds everything without a hiccup, even modern hollowpoints, with accuracy on par with a nicer production 1911 while being small enough to carry IWB), but they decided they didn't want to spend the money on it as it started to look like war in Korea was about to kick off. This caused some (minor) problems down the line, as by the beginning of the Vietnam War, the M1911A1s in inventory were already getting to be pretty clapped out
I still love how detached people are when they say the US should have kept the 1911s to this day. Like my guy they were barely even able to stay assembled sitting on a table.
When I was in the NYARNG, in a Mech Infantry Battalion, I was issued an M16A1 and a 1911A1 (11B40 SFC, Platoon Sergeant, 1st Platoon, Co. D.,1-108th Inf (Mech)). That was as late as 1991, so the 1911A1 was still in armory inventories well into the 90s.
@@boydgrandy5769 Afaik I believe the last M1911A1s in the USMC were at the recruit depots, and were disposed of in 1997. They were only for pistol training, as the fleet pretty much entirely had M9s
I had a Spanish STAR. 9mm 1911. Cracking gun had it for years and put so many rounds through it. Never had any stoppages either that I can remember. 150 pounds well spent.
I have yet to see a version of a specific firearm the John Moses Browning did have manufactured. And I don't remember for whom he was manufacturing the firearm poor. But what he did was he made a 7/8 scale 1911 in 9 m m in around 1916 to 1918. And it wasn't too many of them. It could have been less than a thousand, but it might also have been several thousand I do not recall. But I would love to have a 1911 in 9-millimeter without it being a full size firearm and having everything have to be scaled down to fit inside a forty-five caliber firearm. The 7/8 scale was a perfect answer for making a9mm 1911. Just like we have the 380 1911 that is about 60% scale. Nice little firearm
The Commander is my favorite 1911 variation, and the 9mm was prominently featured in the television series I, Spy, carried by Alexander Scott. Unfortunately, the US preferred the. 45 version which is why the Combat Commander came about, because Murrica couldn't handle the bigger caliber recoil and were too inane to carry the 9mm.
The 1911 is one of my favorite platforms and I have a number of them in different calibers besides .45 and keep a Kimber KHX Ultra and Covert in my edc rotation. The Combat Commander is the perfect carry size. I have a few in .45, 9mm, .357, .22lr, and .38 Super
Even though I’m an American I think we can agree the firearms made by John Moses Browning are awesome. My first semi automatic pistol and I still have it is a Rock Island Armory 1911 A1 Government chambered in .45ACP and I love it. Granted it was made in the Philippines but it’s a very good pistol and a lot of people swear by them.
Interesting as always. Does the RA own examples of military trials pistols? I have an Armalon (there were 4 different types) which was used for UK trials in 2012 however unsuccessful with the UK side arm being the Glock...
I have four Armalon 9mm pistols of the 45 produced for the 2012 UK Military Trials. Long and short barrelled in black and two in two tone. Section 7(3) stored at Bisley.
The .45ACP cartridge started in development in 1904, going through a half dozen iterations by several ammunition manufacturers until 1909, when the design was finalized. Adoption of the round (called the Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911) by the US Military was done concurrent with the adoption of the Colt 1911 pistol in, of course, 1911.
I have two .45's, one from Ruger back in the 1990's and just recently from Tisas. quality, fit and finish is equal between them. Tisas makes several different .45's that when finances allow I will get.
The monthly reminder that this channel runs on donations, and they dont have a Sig p220 with fireselect/safety on the slide. Anyone with acces to the specific subvariant and the ability to donate a quality 2nd hand variant would be included in my list of people who deserves a shoulderpad
Very interesting bit of history, thanks, Jonathan! It reminds me of the reasoning behind things like PM pistol, for which the requirements were drawn up but a couple of years prior to the ones you're discussing here. 0:16 Well, calling it a Government model would work better if this was the last of the firearms Colt produced on the government orders, which isn't the case. So, people naturally tend to avoid ambiguity. 4:57 Highly ironic, of course, given that it was originally on Colt Model 1905, and was dropped specifically on the insistance of the US Army in the development of M1911. 6:30 I'm quite positively surprised to hear that from you, given that Star was doing essentially the same thing (minus the grip safety and a couple of other changes) since 1920. 7:53 It seems to me that these ribs are a *very* clever feature, because they increase the rigidity of a magazine (allowing for lighter weight through larger witness holes) and its reliability, since the follower has less area to contact with and thus is less prone to friction. 7:57 Another highly ironic detail in the sense that Luger was a major competitor to the Colt offering in the US trials and likely influenced some of its features. 8:31 One has to take into account, however, that while American revolvers were indeed six-shooters, in Europe 7- (Nagant M1895) and 8-shot (Rast&Gasser M1898) designs were made in large numbers by the time M1911 came out. 13:10 The success of such an approach would be tied directly to the ability of the military to issue officers in combat zones with rifles reliably, which, as far as I get it, wasn't always the case since this issue arose early in the 2nd Boer war.
I always learn something from every vid you make. This was no exception. Although I knew everything about the 1911 because it's required for all American men, you threw in one of your side-notes that got me thinking. You mentioned the weight of the Walther PPK. Because I found it so sexy when I was a young man, I tried to EDC it and found it miserable. I had always attributed my discomfort to the weight. I had to laugh at myself when you stated that it weighed about the same as a G26 which I've happily carried for years. I'm going to pull out my PPK and shoot it today just for old times sake. Thanks
To my eye this pistol just looked balanced, while the high power is kind of awkward looking. But I would have appreciated the procurement decision to go with 13rd capacity over 8 or 9. Imagine if you are down to side arms in a fight, 'pretty' doesn't matter much.
I had the opportunity to shoot a Browning version, the 1911-380 Black Label Compact in 380acp. Very snappy, difficult to keep on target compared to my CZ75 in 9mm. We aren't permitted to carry handguns in Canada (unless you are a politician's bodyguard). So concealed carry features are pointless here.
At 9:28 you say "English-made" referring to the BHP adopted by Canada. Excuse me? Canadian-made. In fact, John Inglis Co of Toronto built all the free world BHPs during WW2 after the Germans occupied Belgium. The paratroopers you refer to using BHPs in 1944 were carrying Canadian-made BHPs!
I will never understand why back in the 1950s, Colt never offered a double stack version of the 9mm Commander. It could have been done without greatly changing the width of the 1911 grip and would have been a huge sales advantage.
9mm Parabellum was not a popular cartridge in the US at the time, it would take some time for it to establish itself. Now, one of the reasons that 9mm started getting traction was that Smith & Wesson's Model 39 did see some success with law enforcement, it was lighter and handier than a 1911, having a couple more shots, a DA/SA trigger, and 9mm was about as powerful as a lot of .38 Special loads, so it was powerful enough for a lot of people's purposes, but there was a couple of drawbacks. The first was that for a time, 9mm ammunition available in the US was not manufactured with the best consistency, it was not unheard of to buy a box of ammunition and that some of them would have a very subtly longer or shorter case length than they should have, and this was hard to notice, thus one could sometimes run into problems for no obvious reason. There were eventually little metal clip gauges made which you could use to check the length of 9mm ammo, if the case was too long it wouldn't fit, if it was too short you'd see a little gap, thus you could check through a box of ammo that way, but not everyone had that or even knew that this was the problem. The second one was that pistol hollow points just wasn't a mature technology yet, if it wasn't from a Magnum revolver or a rifle, you could often expect a hollowpoint to exhibit little to no expansion, and what you get instead is less penetration. In this context, cartridges like .45 Auto and .38 Super will just look a whole lot nicer, as when you compare FMJ of these three rounds, these two will have more favorable ballistics than 9mm. It's not until the late 1980s that you start to see really good hollowpoints for 9mm. There were some attempts to try to solve that before, like the "Nyclad" ammunition line, where they'd make hollowpoints with particularly soft lead and a nylon jacket, the idea being to make sure you'd get reliable hollowpoint expansion even from a snubnosed .38 Special revolver, but this ended up having the opposite effect because the lead was SO soft that the projectile expanded WAY too much and very early, robbing you of a LOT of penetration, so those early soft lead Nyclad hollowpoints had very terrible wounding characteristics.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Well I disagree with both. The Browning Hi-Power was both well known by then and also respected. But FN/Browning kept the sales price well above what the average American PD was willing to spend on a pistol. LE Officers who could afford to buy a Browning HP and whose agency allowed the use of a personally owned semi-auto on numerous occasions purchased Browning HPs and even sometimes preferred them over 1911s, due to the increased number of shots and low recoil. S&W had marketing geniuses however, and when their Model 39 was ready they cut a too good to be true sales offer to the Illinois State Police that jumped at the purchase price. The only thing S&W was asking for was advertising rights, and they got. Illinois State Police became the 1st major US Law Enforcement agency to officially choose a DA 9mm as the official side arm and the entire US gun community sat up and watched. When the first post shooting reports came in with no reports of malfunction in use, other agencies also began to buy them. Beretta did something very similar with their own Model 92. They offered a very nice similar deal to the Connecticut State Police and their subsequent adoption of the Model 92 right after the US Army had done the same thing meant orders began to flood in.
I actually built a combat commander 1911 back in late summer/early fall 2022 But mine is in .45 acp Cerakote Two tone finish (slide, barrel, guide rod black, stainless frame) Outfitted with American bison bone grips.
Acquisitions almost seem like a roulette to me: - alright manufacturers, here's a set of demands, go make us a weapon - we've changed our mind, so here's the set of changed demands - we've changed our minds completely and here's the all new set of demands And then at the end it's either "We've chosen this weapon from manufacturer X because we had already chosen it before the acquisition even started" or "Thanks everyone, but we won't follow up on the acquisition, too bad for all your troubles" (and the money we've just made you waste).
Matthew Ford's PhD thesis on British rifle adoption mechanism ('The British Army and the Politics of Rifle Development, 1880 to 1986') is a good read in that regard, its extended version was reprinted as a book several years ago, but you can still find the original if you dig hard enough online. I don't know whether he looked into pistol trials, as these are relatively little known, but from the outside the nineteenth century ones seem just as crazy as the one discussed in this video.
Hello Jonathan, damn I actually have a "hum actually" moment! The very first Comander models weren't made by Colt but by (IIRC) the Rock Island Arsenal. They were M1911A1 cut down to a 4.25" barrel and corresponding slide, with the slide markings filled and re-cut. They weren't actually made to be used, but as trophy pistols for generals, and as such were fitted with custom wood grips, with a metal insert bearing the name of the officer. If memory serves me, they were refinished blued instead of the A1s parkerizarion. Outside of the grips, the main visible difference with the commercial commander is the frame: those used an original A1 frame, the commercial model has a slightly shorter frame for the aestetics.
Honestly, if you are going to carry a 9mm pistol in a '1911 style' then most people would certainly agree the Browning Hi-Power is the best choice and the preferred pistol for that caliber and style.
I'm doubting that doing a semi-double stack design by filling out the width of the magazine would give them another round but seems like with a bit of floor plate work you could get it up to 9+1 and keep the single feed. Also the Colt automatic pistol did start out in .38 ACP (not .380!), later .38 Super, but the US and UK government markets demanded >.40 so it jumped to .45 in 1905 trailing the 9x19 by a year or two as seen by the Imperial German Navy Luger P04 (from 1904).
Brought back memories for me. I had a 45 ACP Commander in satin nickel with wooden grips. A beautiful looking pistol that shot as good as it looked. Had to surrender it when the UK GOVT TOOK AWAY our legally held pistols as a ''safety measure'' in the 1990's. Just another UK DRACONIAN measure to get firearms banned.
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Interesting how the UK’s thinking mirrors the USSR’s thinking with the Makarov. The USSR did drop the sub machine gun (or rather made the AK their sub machine gun) and then built simple blow back pistols in 9 mm Makarov - the smallest cartridge they felt they could get away with.
In the 70's, the USSR even adopted a 5.45 x 18mm cartridge for a Makarov-like pistol to match the caliber of the AK-74. I don't think it was very popular though, probably because it was only about as powerful as a 22LR.
@@dwaneanderson8039 It has a rather potent armour-piercing bullet though, and in any event it was designed to be easy to carry for the military top brass and easy to conceal for for plainclothes LE officers.
The 9mm Mak was a decent cartridge for the time in that it bridged the gap between 380 and 9mm Luger. Outdated by modern standards but not ineffective.
Like Jonathan say's its perfectly logical and valid. Particularly when you factor in how little shooting practice most pistol users in the military actually got, after all how much range time or training time are you going to give a tank crew to work on their pistol shooting? Realistically as little as possible because the chances of them needing the pistol are vanishingly small, and any training time on the pistol is taking them away from training in their main roles which is far more militarily useful. No point spending a week per year on a pistol range instead of spending it on tank gunnery...
How many people issued a .45 could actually competently handle them?
And how they treat.people and there freedoms .. Ones started in communism and slowly trying to get better over 80-90 years the other started with kings to freedom back how to communism .. The.people are boned by both governmennts
The US military was also looking at changing pistols after WWII, and had a very vague inquiry out for a 9mm pistol, lighter and smaller than the 1911 (in part so it could also replace the .38 revolvers generally issued to pilots). The US RFI didnt even get to a formal test & competition program, IIRC, although I believe they did actually test the Colt and S&W offerings.
The definitive difference between the "Commander" and the "Combat Commander" is the frame material - aluminum versus steel.
As for handiness, I rather quickly switched from a full size 1911 to a Combat Commander, entirely due to the fact the ¾" difference in length was just enough that when i sat down, the muzzle didn't hit the seat - with a full length pistol, the muzzle would hit the seat about a half inch before my butt actually did, either shoving the gun up in the holster, or trying to shove the entire holster up (depending on holster design).
Correct, Colt created the Commander Model in 9mm specifically for the anticipated US military tests, as did Smith & Wesson with what later became the Model 39. When the actual tests failed to materialize Colt offered the Commander on the commercial market in .45ACP, 9mm, .38 Super and even 9mm Steyr (export only).
if you hip holster, go compact or get a wedgie lol
When I carried wearing an inside the waist band holster that 3/4" difference between the 2 pistols made a great deal of comfortable difference. And that fshion is better suited to the young and slim than the portly and senior.
I toured the stores of the Royal Armoury on a research trip in 2005…it was a high point in my life. I handled amazing firearms from the late 1400’s to modern(QE2 had recently donated her personal collection to them). Prototypes and variations, pattern weapons (I was looking for an officers fusil from the Revolutionary War). I would love to go back for more research and a curators tour. (Hey Jonathan…hint-hint, nudge-nudge, say no more…Monty Python…)
You lucky so and so! I build custom flintlock and percussion firearms and I'd love to wander the halls of the British firearm Museum. Found you imagine getting your hands on an oriental french club butt Buccaneer? That's my next personal build if I can find the time. I've already got the lock forged and a piece of wood laid out. I just need a pattern. I may have to do it by eye.
There was much better access when the collection was at the pattern room and ROF Nottingham, regular tours for those In the trade or doing resaerch.
Did not know Liz was tooled up. Good to know.
FN 9mm is better, Argentina made Commander size slide+barrel unit for HP frame
the book plug was EXCELLENT
I love it, " *not* a book plug ..."
elevator music commences
😁
Very interesting Jonathan! I assume these trials also included the 2 aluminium frame Hi-Powers developed by Inglis which were sent over in 1948.
Pretty neat seeing an older 9mm 1911, normally that's a sort of gun reserved for competition only. It's nice seeing imo my favorite chambering to shoot for 1911's historical roots.
During WW2, Britain bought Argentine copies of the .45 1911 as an emergency buy. Churchill privately owned a .45 Colt 1911, & carried it on foreign visits during WW2. America toyed with going to 9mm in the early 1950s, hence Smith & Wesson developing the M39. Some S&W 39 ended up with British (undercover) Army officers in Belfast early 1970s.
I had a steel frame combat commander in 9mm. First gun I ever carried in a Miami special shoulder holster. I had 10 rd aftermarket magazines so it held plenty. Unfortunately I sold it years ago for one dumb reason or another. I’ve had five 1911s the 9mm was my favorite.
Welcome to the club of"I sold the gun but now I wish I had it!"
Some aluminium framed 1911s have exceeded 100,000 rounds, so wear isn't any more of an issue than with the steel framed versions.
Oh & there are 8 round magazines readily available for the 1911s chambered in .45ACP (I use them for shooting practical pistol matches when over in the US).
Those 8 round .45 ACP magazines are a relatively recent development - the 1911 design GI magazines only hold 7 rounds.
Back when I used to dabble in practical pistol, many courses of fire required mandatory reloads after no more that 7 shots, so that 1911 users would not be at a competitive disadvantage.
9mm type Z is a much higher impulse cartridge. While .45 produces your typical hefty .45 muzzle energy and push it doesn't beat the shit out of the the slide and frame like military 9mm does. That's why 1911 ally frames last.
@idontcare-ct7jm Yes true.
I said some & quoted a round count.
You said one person used four frames with zero reference to round count.
@idontcare-ct7jmBill shoots far more than any five people, though.
I seem to recall mention that the Colt Commander and Smith and Wesson model 39 arise from a request from the US for a 9mm pistol for consideration post WW2.
I came here to add this explanation.
Cheers Johnathan! As always thanks a heap for bringing us awesome content from the Royal Armoury vaults.
Regarding 'hot' 9mm ammunition:
Both NATO & Israeli 'Uzi' ammunition are sif=gnificantly more powerful than 'standard' 9x19 parabellum.
There's a commercial offering, using a 60gr projectile which breaks 2,000fps!
My very first handgun here in the UK (when we could have them) was a Colt Combat Commander in .45" ACP Nickel plated. An excellent pistol and quite accurate. The factory hammer was a 'Bobbed' spur type. I made a knurled rounded military type hammer for it and used it quite successfully in Police Pistol competition 😊 sadly we can't be trusted with such firearms now here in the UK😢
In the 1980s, I had access to a club owned AMT Hardballer in .45 ACP.
But I stayed away from .45 for my serious competition guns because UIT events were limited at .38 as a maximum calibre.
Later on, I used to enjoy shooting the Police Pistol disciplines at Bisley but my best scores were obtained using S&W revolvers.
Actually, some UK folk are still trusted to own breech loading cartridge handguns. In Northern Ireland they are still Section 1 items but on the mainland more specialised arrangements (e.g. under Sections 7.3 or 5 are required).
@derekp2674 It's a crying shame that UK pistol shooters were thrown to the wolves in the early 90s. But the shooting organisations wouldn't band together as a cohesive single organisation to fight the ban. Some viewed it as 'its not us or my discipline ' selfishness really and as we know they are coming for everyone!
While not my first handgun it was definitely my favourite. Like yours, mine was satin nickel with pachmayr grips. I replaced the factory trigger with a lighter match trigger. Still miss it, all these years later.
@@victuff9765 Indeed - I wrote letters to MPs back then, but the ~100,000 of us fighting the changes were considerably outnumbered by the ~7,000,000 who petitioned for the changes.
Still possible to pop over to somewhere like, say.. the Isle of Man and shoot some pistols there…. Ahem! Return Flight from London can be had from about £60.
The Browning High power 9mm was also adopted by the British Secret Service.
This is the original commander, the "light" weight commander to be exact. This pistol was derived to replace the original officers pistol. First introduced in 1949 it was offered to the government/military and didn't go over well. Because it was actually too light and people don't like change. Let's go on, colt contacted Alcoa, an aluminum wheel manufacturer on this endeavor to help them tool up this new
aluminum frame. So they came up with what you're holding in your hands. They made 3 calibers 9mm, super 38 and the 45acp. The first guns, the earliest weren't very accurate because of the headspacing issues. Later fixed on later guns. The hammer you're referring to is called the "ring hammer" the first of it's kind. Later seen on the deltas. Back to the effort to get this gun made. Colt went to great lengths to get this new light weight frame made. Which they would only tool these on certain days because they didn't want the aluminum alloy to taint the regular equipment in the original manufacturing processes. So for a couple days out of the week or weekend they would build these and then go back to normal operations by cleaning the equipment etc. That is a little history on this gun. Overall the commercial market would like it more than who it was tended for.
Colt autos have always been in 9mm. Just in .38 ACP, then its improved version, the .38 Super.
I met Jurek (Durek)? in Birmingham in the 1960's He had a small workshop in Mosely? and was making a single shot 22 target pistol. Very accurate, Popular in pistol clubs at the time, as most were indoor 20yd shoots using the Webley single shot. The Durek was a sliding block, striker fired gun I believe and a big step up from the hammer fired, awful trigger of the Webley.
The British Army acquired Walther P5 9mm pistols for personal defence/concealed carry. mainly for use in Northern Ireland. Double action so I guess the MOD went back to their original spec
We in the US do love the .45 It's kind of the American caliber. I think every American firearms collector has at least one .45 Even though, I personally collect .32s. I still have .45's because, America! 2A! F Yeah! Also, at the range, .45 is slow enough you can see the projectile going down range in proper lighting. It's like tossing spit balls that leave nearly 1/2 inch sized holes. It's kind of like our cars....
Who says that we're in love with the 45ACP? I have a star BM in 9 para that's amazingly like what you have on the table only heavier. Not to mention my Beretta92. When you don't have a lot of money, 9mm is an attractive choice over 45. I'm mean 380/9mm short is more expensive than 9 para. Its a logical choice.
I was not aware that 9mm was uploaded for the STEN. That's what would today be called a +P round.
All European NATO ball is +P. The US stick with the rather vanilla 125 grain copied from German WW2 specs as their "NATO" ball.
I had a couple of Commanders that I bought back in the 60s, one in 9mm and one in 45 ACP. It was also available in 38 Super. The 9mm and 38 Super actually had 9 round magazines. One difference from the Government Model that you didn't mention is a shorter spur on the grip safety, much like on the original 1911.
"...And this is not a book plug" *it is.
That made me laugh.
It's great to hear that these books are back in stock. I got got mine first time around and really enjoyed it.
Sten 9mm is a hot round 😊 My chronograph from a 5” barrel got almost 1400 fps😊and about 1300 fps in an Inglis HP😊
1400fps= + 400 m/sec is hot +P+ smg type load’s.
Orig pistol Luger/Para some 310-330 m/sec.
🇫🇮smg m/31 among first to use extra hot ammo..
Not for C-96 Mauser etc
I learned to shoot pistols from a holster using a Colt officer's model in 9mm, pretty that sure that is what it was called by Colt back in the 1960s but then swapped over to both Glock 17 and 19, the requirement being I had to be proficient to use a manual safety when drawing and firing the firearm, the Glock was used later for the anti-snagging properties of concealed carry. Ironically, I preferred the larger Glock 17 as I did not get slide bite from it while I did with the Glock 19! I have the scars on my right hand to prove it.
The Colt officers model is even shorter. It's the same length as a Detonics. Colt marketed it to compete.
Thanks for sharing that interesting history.
According to Wikipedia. the alloy framed S&W Model 39 was developed in 1954 for US trials but was then released commercially in 1955.
The Model 39 further evolved into the steel framed Model 52 Master target pistol (chambered in.38 Special full wadcutter) and the alloy framed Model 59, with a high capacity magazine.
In the early 1980s, I used a Model 39 as a cheaper alternative to a Model 52, because I liked the way its grip fitted my hand. I did not keep it very long though, as my example was not particularly reliable or especially accurate.
Wikipedia also mentions that Georg Luger designed the 9x19mm cartridge in 1901 and that it was first adopted by German forces in 1904, for the Imperial German Navy's Lugers.
This is the 1911's rebellious teenage son
“You don’t get it, dad! I’m metric!!”
@@TonyTylerDrawsdon't get lippy because you know that the 10 mm is better. Lol
And when he grew up he realized he should have listened to Dad...
@@elementalist1984.45 > 10mm 😊
@@samholdsworth420 and 10mm >9mm
The Colt .380 Government is a scaled down model of the Colt 1911 in 45cal.
15:40 - the S&W Model 39…one of my must haves (eventually). Notable as the sidearm that Vasquez carried in Aliens, and Jonathan I know you’re a big Aliens fan too
A man of culture. 😊
Reminds me of the (Canadian?) aluminium framed hi-power from the 50s Ian showed on forgotten weapons
That M1911 is very nice to look at, thanks for showing it to us Jonathan.
The "definitely not a plug for my book" gag was pretty funny
As someone actually joining the British army I think I might actually want to buy that book
The post-war single-stack Colt 9x19mm pistols had nine-round magazines, not eight, as stated in the video. This gave them two more rounds than the equivalent .45 ACP models.
Ah, l misheard. The longevity of this pistol is incredible. Still made today by umpteen companies and in as many configurations
My father has the same pistol in .45acp, in the early '50's it was called the "Zephyr Commander"
The Commanders existence was due to the U.S. Army wanting to adapt captured German P38s after WW2 and the reaction of Congress. Needless to say the 1911 in 45 cal soldiered on for decades.
No thats the S&W 39. Same mags as a P38. It wasn't adopted.
@zoiders they were the same trials. And Smith called it the 39 as a way to one up Walther.
@@Skaramine The army quickly found out that no way would Congress allow the US Army to adapt captured nazi pistols. Walther or what was left of it then was not invited to offer a pistol for testing for possible acquisition orders.
I would buy a t shirt with 'not quite an inch but enough of a difference to make a difference' printed on it
The first semiautomatic pistol I ever owned was a 9mm 1911. Strange to think at one time not so long ago/before, that was a relatively progressive concept.
That said, 1911s were chambered in .38 Super during the 1920s, so the 9mm 1911 can be seen as a further evolution to chamber the most popular sub-machinegun cartridge of the 1950s.
The comparison with the Hi Power is interesting. The Hi Power has superior capacity.
Single-stack vs. double-stack mags?
The Browning 9mm HP the SAS handgun of choice for many years, its renowned combat proven reliability, and its magazine capacity were its selling point until the Glock, Sig, P229 were available
I'm amused at people who get worked up over pointing a firearm at the camera. I'm 100% certain that nobody has ever been injured by a bullet fired through the internet.
Yes, it’s pretty silly making that disclaimer. Anyone who is so disconnected from reality that they think pointing the gun at a camera is threatening someone should seek psychiatric help.
@@SearTrip I'm not blaming Jonathan. He almost has to say that to forestall the nutjobs.
I think the issue arises because some viewers might wonder if there was an actual film crew working behind the camera.
@@derekp2674 maybe. Or maybe they're just stupid.
@@itsapittie I’m not blaming him either. It’s just ridiculous in all.
Going back many years, the 1911 was most always an open carry pistol, the .38 special Colt and S&W snubby revolvers were for concealed carry. But no better friend in the night table drawer. I use my Ruger 1911 for target range work, for concealed carry the Glocks are hard to beat.
Uhhh, shoulder holster? People did cc the 1911.
Jonathan's attention to perception and discussion over historical pieces is well beyond the differences and details. I can only sit and admire the approach and the knowledge.
10:46 I can't. And we go into comforting music and the book.
Wanna know how many thumbs down this video has today? 2 - two. Up is 1200+
I have never seen such a high rate. People. Aim your clicks.
Sitting here in my home watching this while handling a Tisas Carry import that I bought for evaluation as a base for a custom carry pistol. Alloy frame, bobbed rounded hammer, Bobtail grip framem. Downsides are some parts variance from US available custom parts and the grip safety is fairly upswept.
Don't forget today, at least in the states that many .45ACP magazines are 8rd. capacity.
4:58 The ring-type hammer might also be described as a "rowel" hammer. The rowel term comes from cowboy footwear terminology. (A rowel is the somewhat circular and spikey part of a boot spur that pokes the cowboy's horse).
Thanks for the presentation! I liked it a lot. :)
Regarding the unnamed S&W handgun, from everything I've been able to discern around the same time the US military was looking at 9mm handguns, including what would become the S&W 39, some manner of Walther P38 derivative, and the 9mm Colt Commander; the S&W was the front-runner (it is all around a very good handgun; mine feeds everything without a hiccup, even modern hollowpoints, with accuracy on par with a nicer production 1911 while being small enough to carry IWB), but they decided they didn't want to spend the money on it as it started to look like war in Korea was about to kick off. This caused some (minor) problems down the line, as by the beginning of the Vietnam War, the M1911A1s in inventory were already getting to be pretty clapped out
I still love how detached people are when they say the US should have kept the 1911s to this day. Like my guy they were barely even able to stay assembled sitting on a table.
When I was in the NYARNG, in a Mech Infantry Battalion, I was issued an M16A1 and a 1911A1 (11B40 SFC, Platoon Sergeant, 1st Platoon, Co. D.,1-108th Inf (Mech)). That was as late as 1991, so the 1911A1 was still in armory inventories well into the 90s.
@@boydgrandy5769 Afaik I believe the last M1911A1s in the USMC were at the recruit depots, and were disposed of in 1997. They were only for pistol training, as the fleet pretty much entirely had M9s
I already bought and read your book. Fantastic read.
I had a Spanish STAR. 9mm 1911. Cracking gun had it for years and put so many rounds through it. Never had any stoppages either that I can remember. 150 pounds well spent.
A Colt Commander, as i guessed! 😁
I have yet to see a version of a specific firearm the John Moses Browning did have manufactured. And I don't remember for whom he was manufacturing the firearm poor. But what he did was he made a 7/8 scale 1911 in 9 m m in around 1916 to 1918. And it wasn't too many of them. It could have been less than a thousand, but it might also have been several thousand I do not recall. But I would love to have a 1911 in 9-millimeter without it being a full size firearm and having everything have to be scaled down to fit inside a forty-five caliber firearm. The 7/8 scale was a perfect answer for making a9mm 1911. Just like we have the 380 1911 that is about 60% scale. Nice little firearm
The Commander is my favorite 1911 variation, and the 9mm was prominently featured in the television series I, Spy, carried by Alexander Scott. Unfortunately, the US preferred the. 45 version which is why the Combat Commander came about, because Murrica couldn't handle the bigger caliber recoil and were too inane to carry the 9mm.
The 1911 is one of my favorite platforms and I have a number of them in different calibers besides .45 and keep a Kimber KHX Ultra and Covert in my edc rotation. The Combat Commander is the perfect carry size. I have a few in .45, 9mm, .357, .22lr, and .38 Super
Even though I’m an American I think we can agree the firearms made by John Moses Browning are awesome. My first semi automatic pistol and I still have it is a Rock Island Armory 1911 A1 Government chambered in .45ACP and I love it. Granted it was made in the Philippines but it’s a very good pistol and a lot of people swear by them.
There was a 1911 style pistol made (I believe) in SA, chambered for the 9mm short (also known as .380). Considerably smaller.
Colt Pony. Then more recent copies by Sig and others. Pony was a jammomatic.
Interesting as always. Does the RA own examples of military trials pistols? I have an Armalon (there were 4 different types) which was used for UK trials in 2012 however unsuccessful with the UK side arm being the Glock...
I have four Armalon 9mm pistols of the 45 produced for the 2012 UK Military Trials. Long and short barrelled in black and two in two tone. Section 7(3) stored at Bisley.
I particularly enjoyed the Paul Harrell reference @3:23, so very well played Sir... 😁👍
The .45ACP cartridge started in development in 1904, going through a half dozen iterations by several ammunition manufacturers until 1909, when the design was finalized. Adoption of the round (called the Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911) by the US Military was done concurrent with the adoption of the Colt 1911 pistol in, of course, 1911.
I have two .45's, one from Ruger back in the 1990's and just recently from Tisas. quality, fit and finish is equal between them. Tisas makes several different .45's that when finances allow I will get.
Big ups to the editor’s forced plugging of the Bullpup book
A friend of mine used to carry the Commander. He let me get some trigger time on it. Nice piece.
The monthly reminder that this channel runs on donations, and they dont have a Sig p220 with fireselect/safety on the slide.
Anyone with acces to the specific subvariant and the ability to donate a quality 2nd hand variant would be included in my list of people who deserves a shoulderpad
Very interesting bit of history, thanks, Jonathan! It reminds me of the reasoning behind things like PM pistol, for which the requirements were drawn up but a couple of years prior to the ones you're discussing here.
0:16 Well, calling it a Government model would work better if this was the last of the firearms Colt produced on the government orders, which isn't the case. So, people naturally tend to avoid ambiguity.
4:57 Highly ironic, of course, given that it was originally on Colt Model 1905, and was dropped specifically on the insistance of the US Army in the development of M1911.
6:30 I'm quite positively surprised to hear that from you, given that Star was doing essentially the same thing (minus the grip safety and a couple of other changes) since 1920.
7:53 It seems to me that these ribs are a *very* clever feature, because they increase the rigidity of a magazine (allowing for lighter weight through larger witness holes) and its reliability, since the follower has less area to contact with and thus is less prone to friction.
7:57 Another highly ironic detail in the sense that Luger was a major competitor to the Colt offering in the US trials and likely influenced some of its features.
8:31 One has to take into account, however, that while American revolvers were indeed six-shooters, in Europe 7- (Nagant M1895) and 8-shot (Rast&Gasser M1898) designs were made in large numbers by the time M1911 came out.
13:10 The success of such an approach would be tied directly to the ability of the military to issue officers in combat zones with rifles reliably, which, as far as I get it, wasn't always the case since this issue arose early in the 2nd Boer war.
The 1911 was launching 9mm projectiles by the late 20s, by way of the .38 Super.
I always learn something from every vid you make. This was no exception. Although I knew everything about the 1911 because it's required for all American men, you threw in one of your side-notes that got me thinking.
You mentioned the weight of the Walther PPK. Because I found it so sexy when I was a young man, I tried to EDC it and found it miserable. I had always attributed my discomfort to the weight. I had to laugh at myself when you stated that it weighed about the same as a G26 which I've happily carried for years. I'm going to pull out my PPK and shoot it today just for old times sake. Thanks
Thanks Jonathan
loved the not-a-book-plug(tm) edit :D
Liked my Browning 9 milly when I was in NI….🇬🇧
The first Colt Commander in 1947 was sold to Winston Churchill.
To my eye this pistol just looked balanced, while the high power is kind of awkward looking.
But I would have appreciated the procurement decision to go with 13rd capacity over 8 or 9. Imagine if you are down to side arms in a fight, 'pretty' doesn't matter much.
Excellent book plug! That gave me a good laugh.
RG 2Z 9mm, Good stuff😏
I'd like to see Jonathan react to Solid Snake's hype speech about the customized M1911a1 from MGS3.
What about all the cracked and broken Hi Power frames and slides the British experienced from that hot 9mm smg ammo?
There is a market for that in the US right now. With a double stack mag
"It's not aimed at anyone.... currently"
I had the opportunity to shoot a Browning version, the 1911-380 Black Label Compact in 380acp.
Very snappy, difficult to keep on target compared to my CZ75 in 9mm.
We aren't permitted to carry handguns in Canada (unless you are a politician's bodyguard). So concealed carry features are pointless here.
At 9:28 you say "English-made" referring to the BHP adopted by Canada. Excuse me? Canadian-made. In fact, John Inglis Co of Toronto built all the free world BHPs during WW2 after the Germans occupied Belgium. The paratroopers you refer to using BHPs in 1944 were carrying Canadian-made BHPs!
I will never understand why back in the 1950s, Colt never offered a double stack version of the 9mm Commander. It could have been done without greatly changing the width of the 1911 grip and would have been a huge sales advantage.
9mm Parabellum was not a popular cartridge in the US at the time, it would take some time for it to establish itself.
Now, one of the reasons that 9mm started getting traction was that Smith & Wesson's Model 39 did see some success with law enforcement, it was lighter and handier than a 1911, having a couple more shots, a DA/SA trigger, and 9mm was about as powerful as a lot of .38 Special loads, so it was powerful enough for a lot of people's purposes, but there was a couple of drawbacks.
The first was that for a time, 9mm ammunition available in the US was not manufactured with the best consistency, it was not unheard of to buy a box of ammunition and that some of them would have a very subtly longer or shorter case length than they should have, and this was hard to notice, thus one could sometimes run into problems for no obvious reason. There were eventually little metal clip gauges made which you could use to check the length of 9mm ammo, if the case was too long it wouldn't fit, if it was too short you'd see a little gap, thus you could check through a box of ammo that way, but not everyone had that or even knew that this was the problem.
The second one was that pistol hollow points just wasn't a mature technology yet, if it wasn't from a Magnum revolver or a rifle, you could often expect a hollowpoint to exhibit little to no expansion, and what you get instead is less penetration. In this context, cartridges like .45 Auto and .38 Super will just look a whole lot nicer, as when you compare FMJ of these three rounds, these two will have more favorable ballistics than 9mm. It's not until the late 1980s that you start to see really good hollowpoints for 9mm.
There were some attempts to try to solve that before, like the "Nyclad" ammunition line, where they'd make hollowpoints with particularly soft lead and a nylon jacket, the idea being to make sure you'd get reliable hollowpoint expansion even from a snubnosed .38 Special revolver, but this ended up having the opposite effect because the lead was SO soft that the projectile expanded WAY too much and very early, robbing you of a LOT of penetration, so those early soft lead Nyclad hollowpoints had very terrible wounding characteristics.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Well I disagree with both. The Browning Hi-Power was both well known by then and also respected. But FN/Browning kept the sales price well above what the average American PD was willing to spend on a pistol. LE Officers who could afford to buy a Browning HP and whose agency allowed the use of a personally owned semi-auto on numerous occasions purchased Browning HPs and even sometimes preferred them over 1911s, due to the increased number of shots and low recoil.
S&W had marketing geniuses however, and when their Model 39 was ready they cut a too good to be true sales offer to the Illinois State Police that jumped at the purchase price. The only thing S&W was asking for was advertising rights, and they got. Illinois State Police became the 1st major US Law Enforcement agency to officially choose a DA 9mm as the official side arm and the entire US gun community sat up and watched. When the first post shooting reports came in with no reports of malfunction in use, other agencies also began to buy them.
Beretta did something very similar with their own Model 92. They offered a very nice similar deal to the Connecticut State Police and their subsequent adoption of the Model 92 right after the US Army had done the same thing meant orders began to flood in.
RE: The side by side of the barrels, .45 to 9mm; I'd like to see a side by side with a .357 Deagle please.
I kinda wondered why Colt didn't make a 1911 variant that accepted Hi-Power magazines. Well, we got "2011" pistols these days.
I actually built a combat commander 1911 back in late summer/early fall 2022
But mine is in .45 acp
Cerakote Two tone finish (slide, barrel, guide rod black, stainless frame)
Outfitted with American bison bone grips.
I never new Peter Capaldi loved guns so much.
Acquisitions almost seem like a roulette to me:
- alright manufacturers, here's a set of demands, go make us a weapon
- we've changed our mind, so here's the set of changed demands
- we've changed our minds completely and here's the all new set of demands
And then at the end it's either "We've chosen this weapon from manufacturer X because we had already chosen it before the acquisition even started" or "Thanks everyone, but we won't follow up on the acquisition, too bad for all your troubles" (and the money we've just made you waste).
Matthew Ford's PhD thesis on British rifle adoption mechanism ('The British Army and the Politics of Rifle Development, 1880 to 1986') is a good read in that regard, its extended version was reprinted as a book several years ago, but you can still find the original if you dig hard enough online.
I don't know whether he looked into pistol trials, as these are relatively little known, but from the outside the nineteenth century ones seem just as crazy as the one discussed in this video.
When did Small Become smol?
Its these damn kids and their rock music, speaking middle English with no accent, by kracky!
SMOL!
Hello Jonathan, damn I actually have a "hum actually" moment!
The very first Comander models weren't made by Colt but by (IIRC) the Rock Island Arsenal.
They were M1911A1 cut down to a 4.25" barrel and corresponding slide, with the slide markings filled and re-cut.
They weren't actually made to be used, but as trophy pistols for generals, and as such were fitted with custom wood grips, with a metal insert bearing the name of the officer.
If memory serves me, they were refinished blued instead of the A1s parkerizarion.
Outside of the grips, the main visible difference with the commercial commander is the frame: those used an original A1 frame, the commercial model has a slightly shorter frame for the aestetics.
You're thinking of the RIA M15 GO (General Officers) pistols. They were made much later than the Commander Models, starting around 1972.
From the desk of Director of Artillery (Small arms)
Specifications of the Pistol:
1. Pistol goes bang.
2. Enemy falls over.
16:16
James Bond pistol!
I have a star model b. Little bitty tack driver.
Not a silly analogy at all Jonathan. The MOD were min-maxing. As you do.😊
Were the Canadian Hipower pistols not made in Canada? I think by Inglis, they also made refrigerators and televisions iirc.
Honestly, if you are going to carry a 9mm pistol in a '1911 style' then most people would certainly agree the Browning Hi-Power is the best choice and the preferred pistol for that caliber and style.
A British ministry moving goal posts on a job?! Noooo, I don’t believe it Jonathon! 😂😂😂
I'm doubting that doing a semi-double stack design by filling out the width of the magazine would give them another round but seems like with a bit of floor plate work you could get it up to 9+1 and keep the single feed.
Also the Colt automatic pistol did start out in .38 ACP (not .380!), later .38 Super, but the US and UK government markets demanded >.40 so it jumped to .45 in 1905 trailing the 9x19 by a year or two as seen by the Imperial German Navy Luger P04 (from 1904).
10:45 BOOK! Book! he said book, listen properly brain!!! he said book.
I like how the British say aluminum. Isn't it the right way to say it
Ooooooh BOOK plug...
Brought back memories for me. I had a 45 ACP Commander in satin nickel with wooden grips. A beautiful looking pistol that shot as good as it looked. Had to surrender it when the UK GOVT TOOK AWAY our legally held pistols as a ''safety measure'' in the 1990's. Just another UK DRACONIAN measure to get firearms banned.
Surprised he's not mentioning the .38 super 1911s in 1929.
They made 8 rd mags in 45 .. Not sure the first year but I'm betting its close