Why Finland "joined" the Axis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- Technically, Finland never joined the Axis. Yet, the Finns fought alongside the Axis against the Soviet Union from 1941-1944. Although some might see Germany and Finland as “natural” allies this was far less the case than some might suspect. There were various issues like politics, ideology and the recent Winter War where there some issues or strong disagreement, of course there was also some common ground.
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Müller, Rolf-Dieter: An der Seite der Wehrmacht: Hitlers ausländische Helfer beim „Kreuzzug gegen den Bolschewismus“ ; 1941 - 1945. 1. Aufl, Links: Berlin, 2007.
Stahel, David (Ed.): Joining Hitler’s Crusade: European Nations and the Invasion of the Soviet Union, 1941. Cambridge University Press: Cambridge ; New York, NY, 2018.
Kistle, Thomas William: Finland in Nazi Germany’s war strategy 1939-1945, University of Monata: 1968.
Cambridge History of the Second World War. Volume II. Politics and Ideology. Cambridge University Press: UK, 2015.
The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume I: Fighting the War. Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, 2015.
Maier, Klaus A.: Die Errichtung der Hegemonie auf dem europäischen Kontinent. Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt: Stuttgart, 1979 (Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Bd. 2).
Mawdsley, Evan: Thunder in the east: the Nazi-Soviet war 1941-1945. Second edition, Bloomsbury Academic, an imprint of Bloomsbury Publishing Plc: London ; New York, 2016
Jacobsen, H.A.: 1939-1945. Der Zweite Weltkrieg in Chronik und Dokumenten. Dritte durchgesehene und ergänzte Auflage. Wehr und Wissen Verlagsgesellschaft: Darmstadt, 1960.
Hill, Alexander: The Red Army and the Second World War. Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, United Kingdom, 2017.
"We would have allied with the Devil, but the nazis had tanks."
Indeed
And Stuka's
And that´s the true reason, but don´t forget the Panzerschreck and Panzerfaust.
And then the Soviets rolled over with over 80k tanks produced 🤣
@@SVTDI Well the fuckers deserved every corpse we could give them, even if it was futile.
WW2 was a global war that lasted from 1939 to 1945, fought between The Allies, The Axis and Finland.
1937, or even 1931, or... 1914.
Japans war started in 1931.
For some states, like Poland and central Europe, ww2 lasted from 1920s to 1991.
@@anthonyoer4778 For those states, WWI, the interwar period, WWII, and the cold war were one long war that dragged on for 75 years.
@@Dennis-vh8tz yes thanks. That's what I was trying to convey.
I massively appreciate the use of primary sources, I feel as though it elevates this channel above the rest!
Absolutely! Raise the standard :D
Actually he uses secondary sources (books). Primary sources would be documents from archives. However, the secondary literature he uses is I agree absolutely first-rate scholarship.
Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
I'd have a hard choice if my only choices were Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. It's like "Pick your murderer".
Poland agreed
and still agrees
By the virtue on Molotov-Ribbentrop, no need to choose: you're boned by both either way!
@@qwormuli77 Describes well the utterly hopeless situation between a rock and a hard place.
After Stalin had been persecuting Ingrians, Karelians and other ethnic Finns since 1929 and throughout the 1930s, deporting them to forced labour camps and Siberia and executing them en masse, killing tens of thousands of that tiny minority, the decision wasn't that difficult, especially when the USSR did the same to the Baltic countries in 1940 and 1941...
As a Finn, I have a vague recollection of a quote from a Finnish officer regarding "allying" with Nazi Germany:
"Let the Devil destroy the Satan, and in the prosess, be depleted itself"
The USSR wasn't exactly a "natural" ally for the UK and US, either, but hardly anyone even bats an eye over _that_ anymore.
Except it was a formal alliance, Molotov had gone to France almost immediately after the end of polish campaign to start talks on alliance against Germany. Except, you know, soviets haven't thought that 1)France that had the biggest military industry in the world would just fold like that; 2)Hitler would be ballsy enough to go for 2 front war and still attack them. Planning rearmament to end only in 1943 was basically dropping the pants, turning around and assuming position if you'd allow such analogue and had almost ended up as irreparable disaster... and for several millions of young men, who had to fight for each kilometer of delay, it did.
@@TheArklyte No
@@popsey72.
@@TheArklyte I didn't say the USSR wasn't _formally_ a member of the Allies, I said the USSR wasn't a _natural fit_ with the Western Allies. The reasons for that are almost identical to those stated in the video for why the Finns and Germans weren't natural allies.
@@TheArklyte
Ok that is wrong on several things
1. The strongest wartime industry had the USSR at that point
2. The USSR did not know that
A little late, but I thought I'd share Mannerheim's letter to Hitler when they left the war.
"In this hour of hard decisions I am impelled to inform you that I have arrived at the conviction that the salvation of my nation makes it my duty to find a means of ending the war.
The general development of total war greatly restricts Germany's ability to send us sufficient help at the right time and in the difficult situations which can be expected. It is my sincere belief, however, that Germany wishes to offer us this assistance. But the dispatch of a single German division to Finland requires such a long time that our resistance against the overwhelming superiority of the enemy might break down before its arrival. I also fully understand that the situation does not permit a sufficient number of German divisions being kept permanently in readiness in Finland. The experiences of the past summer confirm this.
The judgment of the war situation which I have just given is shared by a growing majority of the representatives of the Finnish people. Even should my opinion be other than it is, it would not be possible for me, having regard to our constitution, to ignore the plainly shown wishes of the majority of the nation. When Field-Marshal Keitel recently visited me, he insisted that the people of Greater Germany could doubtless continue the war for another ten years if necessary. I replied that even if one might hope that this be true of a nation of ninety millions, it was equally true that we Finns were physically incapable of continuing the war. The Russians' great assaults in June exhausted our reserves. We cannot expose ourselves to another such blood-letting without the whole future of the small Finnish nation being jeopardized.
I wish especially to emphasize that Germany will live on even if fate should not crown your arms with victory. Nobody could give such an assurance regarding Finland. If that nation of barely four millions be militarily defeated, there can be little doubt that it will be driven into exile or exterminated. I cannot expose my people to such a fate.
Even though I can hardly hope that my opinions and reasons will be accepted by you, I wish to send you these lines before the hour of decision.
Our roads will probably soon part, but the memory of our German brothers-in-arms will live on.
In Finland the Germans have certainly not been the representatives of a foreign usurper, but helpers and brothers-in-arms, but even though that be the case, the position of foreigners is bound to be a very difficult one. I can assure you that during the past years nothing whatever has happened which could cause us to regard the German troops as oppressors or invaders. The conduct of the German Army in Northern Finland towards the local population and the local authorities will, I think, stand out in our history as an almost unique example of correct and friendly relations in similar conditions.
I regard it as my duty to lead my people out of the war. The arms which you have generously given us I will never of my own accord turn against Germans. I cherish the hope that, even though you may take exception to my letter, you will share my wish and the wish of all Finns, that the change in our relations may not give rise to animosity."
So many words to say: We are pussying out.
and then the germans burned Lapland and the Finns were forced to fight them
@@SVTDI USSR doesn't exist, Third Reich doesn't exist. Finland exists. It was a good call.
@@LeDeux11 Yeah and Russia kept all the land it took from Finland.
@@hyljix The Finns were forced to fight them because the allies noticed there was no fighting going on and Stalin said he'd invade if they didn't start. On the 28th of September 1944 the Finnish started hostilities by attacking a rear echelon unit of the 20th mountain army.
Finnish Author Väinö Linna writes in his book "the unkown soldier":
"Liberty medals...Are they trying to bribe me with coloured ribbons? I wouldn't kill a man for one of those things. Or go and be killed. Any shooting I do is to save my own life, and not for a ribbon and a hunk of bronze"
Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
I learned so much from watching this video. I had to google why nickel was important to Germany and that is why this is my favorite TH-cam channel hands down. You get me interested in learning more. I was a idiot about WWII before finding your channel. Thank you so much and keep it up!
Nice beard by the way! Why don't I see anyone every mention that?
I can only imagine if cobalt had been found alongside Petsamon lääni nickel deposits.
Fun facts:
1. soviets wanted to be the only customer for the petsamo’s nickel
2. Soviets shot down a finnish cargo plane during peace time
3. Soviets had a new plan to invade finland again after the winter war but that plan was halted due to germany getting involved
4. No country offered real help to finland during the winter war and the finns felt backstabbed by the allies
5. Germany had helped finland during the civil war
Finland knew that the peace with the soviets wasn’t going to last so they accepted help from the only other country that was willing to help.
6. Soviet Union won the war against Finland. Me kaikki puhutaan nyt venäjää.
@@paavoilomaki1607 aijaa
I mean, to play Devil's Advocate:
3. Is more or less what a competent General Staff does regardless; Better to Have Plans to, say, launch an invasion of your neutral Northern neighbor and not NEED them than to need them and not have them. Of course I imagine the Soviet plans to reinvade Finland were taken a lot more seriously for execution in the near future than-say- the plans the US and Canada have to invade each other, but that's an issue with the in
and
4. Quite a number of nations offered real help to Finland, and in particular the British and French offered to send a combined task force through Scandinavia to Finland to help fight the Soviets. But both the Nazis and Soviets put pressure and ultimately Sweden refused. Of course it's just as likely that the Western Allies were MOSTLY doing this to strangle German iron ore supplies from Northern Sweden to Narvik, but direct combat is still aheck of a thing.
You speak as the Finland is a person.
White Finn's massacred Red Finn's. Put them in death camps and made them eat tree bark and then die.
I wonder what kind of deal I can make with this kind of policymakers?
As the post knowledge, we all know that Finland participated in blockade which took lives of million of people.
Soviet POWs were placed in death camps same as Red Finn's more than ten years ago.
Children were placed in concentration camps.
So yes, Finland could not join to the Axis, because it was already a part of it.
Great Finland and raised sword etc - same Nazi policies
@@luckabuse "You speak as the Finland is a person."
No, but I speak as if Finland were a nation-state with a government. Which is enough.
"
White Finn's massacred Red Finn's."
And Red Finns and Red Russians massacred White Finns. Not surprising in a bitter civil war. The main reason why the Whites massacred more than the Reds is because- bluntly- the Reds sucking at playing war meant they got vastly fewer prisoners. And the main reason why the toll was as relatively low as it was is that neither side was trying to outright massacre each other.
"Put them in death camps and made them eat tree bark and then die."
Oh Go to hell, Soviet Shill.
Yes, the post-civil war prisoner camps were quite dingy, often abusive, and thoroughly shoddy. However, they were not fucking death camps.
As attested by the fact that the total mortality rate clocked in at a grand total of 16.5%.... in SPITE of the fact that this happened after a brutal civil war, at the heyday of the Spanish Influenza epidemic, in a country that was already agriculturally ravaged and (during the time in question) blockaded from the wider world without food aid.
Now, do me a solid and compare this to the mortality rates for the Bolshevik "concentration camps" in the 1920s, or for Axis POWs in Soviet POW camps in WWII.
I'll be WAAAIIITING.
"I wonder what kind of deal I can make with this kind of policymakers?"
If you need to wonder, you're an ignoramus. If you're just saying this in spite of knowing, you're a liar.
But in any case, the answer to "I wonder what kind of deal I can make with this kind of policymakers" is: "The Fenno-Bolshevik 1920 Peace Treaty of Tartu" which remained in force until the Soviets broke it in 1939.
Perhaps you have heard of it?
Of course, Soviet apologists like to have it both ways: bullshitting about Finnish atrocities (real and imagined) in order to demonize their victims and ask "How could pwoor little Soviet Russia EVER co-exist with such people?!?" while wanting to ignore how IT ACTUALLY DID SO.
"
As the post knowledge, we all know that Finland participated in blockade which took lives of million of people."
Correct.... AFTER the Soviets violated the Treaty of Tartu two years prior, waging an unprovoked and completely unjustified war to try and subjugate Finland in league with Nazi Germany. Ostensibly in order to protect Leningrad from "Finnish aggression" (which- true to form- the Soviet Central Committee had to provide due to demand for Finnish aggression outstripping supply).
How did that work out?
Oh wait, it *DIDN'T*, since the war was a shambles that encouraged Stalin's Nazi ally to think he could backstab him far sooner than previously thought, the territory conquered in Northern Karelia proved to be indefensible ANYWAY and spurred a desperate Finland to seek cooperation anyway.
And of course, Soviet Shills dislike it when I bring up one very simple fact about the Siege of Leningrad.
That ALL of it- every single one of it, the monumental resistance of the locals to genocidal Nazi aggression, skilled fighting of the city's defenders and commanders, the desperate measures to feed and supply the people, the construction of war material even under the bomb sights of the Luftwaffe, the frenzied and persistent efforts to punch through the siege lines and relieve the city......
.... would have been FOR NAUGHT had the Finns allowed the Nazis to station a few German divisions on the Northern Karelian Isthmus to attack the city from that direction. But Mannerheim refused, precisely because he recognized that allowing the Nazis to base troops there
But Mannerheim steadfastly refused, no doubt recognizing the Nazis were bent on utterly exterminating the city and its people (as the Germans had discussed with the Finns significantly), that allowing German troops North of the city would cut off the last line of support across the Road of Hope, and that the destruction of the city would utterly destroy both the city Mannerheim viewed as his home and render any reconciliation with the Soviets impossible.
Of course, Soviet shills don't like acknowledging this. Which is why they prefer to credit the Finnish halt to the North with the defense of the KaUR fortifications. And to be fair it is true that the KaUR fortifications and their defenders served the city well and inflicted much higher losses on the Finns than they expected. But this didn't change the fact that the Finns had ultimately ripped the heart out of the KaUR fortified area's Northern defenses by September 1941 (making sizable penetrations including the capture of the Northern command center) and had already been issued orders in August 1941 to halt as they could successfully take their designated objectives.
And of course, *Finnish* casualties on the KaUR don't explain why *Finland* wouldn't authorize a *Nazi German* attack from that direction.
"Soviet POWs were placed in death camps same as Red Finn's more than ten years ago."
Oh go fuck yourself.
Soviet POWs were placed in prisoner of war camps, which is unsurprising. And I'll note that the mortality rate for them was MUCH lower than it was for Finns in Soviet captivity.
And in particular they were treated much better than the Red Finns had been (who were themselves far from being exterminated), especially since many of them were assigned to help bring in the harvests with farming.
"
Children were placed in concentration camps."
Correct. AND?!?
That's KIND OF WHAT YOU DO in a state of war with enemy aliens on your territory.
Just ask the Soviets, who deported Ingrian Finns, Karelian Finns, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Crimean Greeks, and a whole lot of others to concentration camps that made the worst the Finns had- which though often shoddy, poorly equipped, and abusive were never genocidal like the Nazis- saintly.
So if you want to claim the Finns were constructing "Death Camps", what does that make the far worse Soviet ones?
"So yes, Finland could not join to the Axis, because it was already a part of it."
Triparte Pact. Google it, chowderhead.
"Great Finland and raised sword etc -"
In response to being attacked without provocation by the Soviets.
" same Nazi policies
"
Bitch please. There's a reason why Soviet POWs in Finnish custody had the lowest mortality rates of all Soviet POWs in Axis custody, ranging from the outright genocidal Nazi Germans to the "merely" cruel and brutal Italians, Hungarians, and Romanians.
Oh, and they ALSO suffered mortality rates far lower than any Axis nationality in Soviet captivity.
The finns were not saints, but they were also not murderously totalitarian like Nazi Germany. Or the Soviet Union for that matter.
It's good to see this without bias, too many court historians are eager to malign Finland as fighting on the side of the Axis. Where else could they turn, they saw how the West had abandoned and betrayed Poland. They never attacked Leningrad because they knew that Stalin would never forgive that. They survived the war because with German assistance they were able to contain the 1944 soviet offensive, it can truly be said that German arms in Finland did more towards the lofty goals of the Atlantic Charter than Western arms achieved in Eastern Europe, which was abandoned to decades of soviet occupation. Mannerheim must be regarded as one of the greatest statesmen and military leaders of all time, Finland as one of the bravest small nations of all time.
Great video. As a Finn I really appreciate the accuracy of your facts and conclusions.
One comment I have and that's that you could have used a bit more time to describe the political developments between the end of winter war and the start of Barbarossa. not only did the Soviets occupy the Baltic states but they also put pressure on Finland for further concessions and Germany was the only one wiling to back up Finland's "no" to Soviets' demands. (Of course at that point the West couldn't offer anything, as Germany held Norway and Denmark and France had capitulated)
By the way, Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
Would be interesting to hear you talk about Finnish artillery during the latter half of the war. Finns probably had the most effective artillery of the war (not the most powerful, as that honor goes to the Soviets through sheer numbers alone) with targeting systems that were way ahead of what others were doing. See also: fire correction circle.
Seconded, this sounds incredibly interesting
I'm sure these guys would be happy to help you with sources and maybe even provide some footage www.rspsto1.fi/
Finns prepped their artillery to a mathematical precision to the last meter and effective movement to secondary positions and new targets and so on during the PEACE TIME anticipating a soviet attack. The winter war was nothing more than an ambush. Whereas during the continuation war their offensive capabilities unraveled and every myth shattered
Looks at Brits, who have mastered coordinating upwards of 1000 guns on same target within 5 minutes *on the offensive*
@@Hagendaz97 the fire correction circle was developed during continuation war, which was used highly effectively against the soviets in 44. Winter War was notorious for having very little artillery support for the Finns.
this is not a comment, it is an offering to the almighty algorithm
;) thx
Nice.
I wonder if offerings under other offerings count too, but I'll try anyway.
The Winter war must be seen for what it is, a total failure of Soviet foreign policy and security policy to secure the north west flank.
1. There where no treat from Finland to Soviet (Leningrad) 1939. The Finnish Army of 1939 could not have counqerd Leningrad. Neither was there any political will of this kind.
2. If there where no Winter war 1939-1940, there would certainly not have been any Finnish participation in the war 1941-45.
3. The Soviet aggression of 1939 actually created the situation it was ment to secure from.
That's what I call a failed policy.
@lati long "Fascists were better than Communists" thinking in much of Europe".
As the proverb goes: "Reality looks much more obvious in hindsight than in foresight".
People often forget, that before the war, or even at the beginning of it, Germany seemed as "the lesser evil", since it didn't yet have millions of victims to its name, unlike Soviet Union, which killed millions of its own citizens in the Holodomor alone, not to mention other atrocities.
Stalin worried about Germany influencing Finland, Leningrad was open and if Germany did get Finland then Leningrad would have fallen instead of being besiged. Was the policy stupid ? yes but it made sense, a lot of sense since the West did everything in their power to help Hitler instead of allying the Soviets and stopping Germany in its infancy.
@@SVTDI How exactly attacking Finland and making it want to take back lands stolen by Soviets helped Leningrad in anyway? On the contrary - Soviets created self-fullfilling prophecy. They should've either leave Finland alone or take the entire country and set a puppet governement. Besides, it was Soviets who broke the negotiations with Brits and French in 1939. It was Soviets who signed the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pracy dividing eastern Europe into the spheres of influence. It was Soviets who fed German war machine with natural resources (German-Soviet trade agreement of 1940) instead of joining Allied economical blockade. Lack of resources would've crippled German industry.
@@Kopyrda Well first and foremost the Soviets wanted a land swap not war, Finland refusing that deal brought the war
@@SVTDI First and foremost, Soviets wanted Finns to destroy the Mannerheim Line, which would've leave the shortest way to Finnish capital wide open for the Red Army. Read the Soviet memorandum from 14.10.1939. Why Soviets in your opinion can do whatever they want to "protect" Leningrad, but when Finns want to protect their own capital it's suddenly bad?
It's also important to note that the Soviet Union continued its hostilities against Finland after the Winter War. For example, they shot down the passenger airplane Kaleva in June 1940, did mass troop concentrations on the border and even occupied more territory than was agreed in the Interim Peace.
Moreover, Finland tried to create a new defense alliance with Sweden but the Soviet Union scuttled this development via diplomatic threats.
In addition, after Germany had conquered Denmark and Norway, Finland was further isolated from the Western powers. Not many options left at that point.
The shooting of Kaleva was hidden from the people until after Soviet bombings in June 1941. That shows the extent the government wanted to avoid any provocation.
Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
It's really sad that most folks these days dismiss Finland's reasons for "joining" the Axis. They all get judgmental and even declare that "well the Finns should have just surrendered to the Soviets" but they get pissed at me when I reply "well the Soviets should have left them alone".
By the way, Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
“The Soviet Union was the natural enemy of the...”
Yes
👍
Everyone.
@@captainsponge7825 Absolutely, but that's not the USSR. That's just Russia being historically Russian.
Look someone who actually knows why the Finns fought with Germany in WW2.
Not like that other channel who basiclly called Finland an axis country...
Good video, but I think you still are not putting enough emphasis on the happening during the Interim peace 1940-1941.
After the winter war Finland was in dire straits, a large part of its economy was based around the lost city of Viipuri, they now had some hundred thousands refugees to take care of(the country itself had around 3,5 million inhabitants) and the continental blockade had hurt the economy bad. There were a shortage of everything including food and coal, and the Soviet Union obviously not intrested in trading with Finland in the same way they did with Germany.
However most important of all, the Soviet Union had not given up its plans of annexing Finland in the same way they annexed the Baltic states, and so immense pressure was put on the finns, and the forcibly legalized communist party was overtly causing instability. The Soviets had extensive plans for using Hanko as the base of an attack. The Finnish army on the other hand was totally worn out after the Winter war. It lacked ammunition and heavy weapons.
So when the cooperation with Germany started, it meant that the finns got food, coal, rearmed and reequipped and got protected as german troops were stationed in its northern part.
If the Soviet Union would have had any interest in friendly relations with a post Winter War indepedent Finland, they should have layed off the pressure and compensated Finland for its lost territories by supplying it with food and coal(before WW1 it was common that the victors payed compensation to the loser for ceded territory, so why not?).
Vyborg was roughly the same size as it is today. Finland had not yet urbanized. As a result, about 410,000 Finnish Karelians, were relocated to the remainder of Finland.
Half of my paternal and maternal grandparents had to evacuate during the war, paternal grandfather twice. Maternal grandmother told a tale of how a Russian ground attack plane was strafing their house but stopped just as the burst was about to hit her at their doorstep. She always explained that she didn't know whether the pilots ammunition ran out or whether his conscience kicked in. Either way, a lot of people exist today because of that moment.
Yes, there are some examples of what happened during that Interim peace period here (in Finnish, but google translate can translate it to other languages). See chapter Rajaloukkaukset
fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4lirauha
@@karlotmvilla
I have similar story about my maternal grandfathers mother, she was also chased by a plane shooting at her, however she was lucky and fell in a bomb crater. Her family thought that she was dead for a while.
By the way, Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
I would like to point out that the only nation to lift a finger in the aid of Finland, was Sweden. In the parliament, a proposal to join Finland in the war was voted down with the communists as deal breakers. Still, loads of materiel were sent to help and 10 000 volunteers was allowed to join as fighting troops. The UK did nothing. In fact, they never fired a shot at the Red Army throughout the war. Some Norwegian and Danish volunteers should be mentioned as well, but against the law.
Honour where its due. UK donated 10 (outdated) Gloster Gladiator fighters and sold more + Hurricanes. UK also donated at least ambulances, guns, ammunition and much miscellaneous stuff. Among the donated guns were the howitzers mounted on captured BT-7s to make BT-42s.
Even the heavily isolated US managed to send military aid and volunteers. Meanwhile Swedes were of great help, you should not understate help of others.
There were 700 Norwegians fighting alongside the Swedish volunteers (Max Manus among them). France and UK donated some military hardware, there was also material aid from various other European countries. Some countries, Italy, UK and France among them, also sold hardware (airplanes and such) in a situation were it wasn't given that any country would sell anything. After all, the world war had already started and everything sold was away from the country's own arsenal.
@@nuoksu I did mention the Danes and the Norwegians who also fought for Finland, but it has to be mentioned that taking up arms for Finland was illegal in Denmark and Norway. Anyone doing so actually committed treason. And this was a time when Scandinavia should have stood up as one man.
No UK, US or French volunteers ever fought on the frontline, making my initial statement completely correct. Not one of the Western Allies fired a shot at the Red Army intentionally, and they were led by a man and a regime that was arguably worse than the Nazis (IMO definitely).
Yes, I missed out on some material help from others, but I doubt anything was as valuable as the Bofors howitzers, the guns, ammo and relatively modern tanks and small navy vessels. Sweden did all but join the war on Finland's side. Now that makes us nowhere as brave as the Finns themselves, but I do say "no thanks" to moral lectures from nations that allied with Stalin. At the time you could call it a necessary evil. I don't think that holds up to scrutiny either, but at the time, well maybe. But people who still bang their chests as if it was the 40s or 50s, are despicable IMHO.
@Charlie Shepherd I presume you mean the book by Slavomir Rawicz, which has also been made into a movie. I read it and watched it. While I don't doubt the cruelty of his account, because there are far worse stories who are more believable. His veracity on many levels have been questioned. I wouldn't take his fiction-biography as proof of English fighter pilots in the Winter War. There is no other mention of these as far as I know.
@@nuoksu, exactly! We must remember for example Portugal which sent us all the necessary war time material like sardines, olive oil and red wine.
As Finnish I find it awesome you did this video and explain to rest our "complicated" status with Axis most don't know even know
Type type type... oh, "joined" is in quotes. Carry on! =) Thanks for the coverage on this one. I studied quite a bit about the Finnish in WW2 while researching the history of the Brewster B-239 and this was a good refresher.
Only American naval Fighter plane that was better than its reputation and reason why soviets didnt want them after Amerika joined the war
The allies never helped the Finns against the Soviets.
That's not exactly true. During 1930's Britain promised Finland an alliance and did sell much military power to Finns. Even in1940 Finland got new Brewster fighters through a British middleman to replace planes lost during the Winter War, since Britain could not offer a plane to match Finnish needs. But since 1941 Britain could not continue serving Finns. Partly because German Norway occupation blocked the routes, and then because USA and Britain needed Soviet alliance against the Nazis. USSR naturally didn't allow to support Finland which they were at war against. So basicly Allies dropped Finland into German's hands 1941 onwards.
Allies did give help to ruskies in fight against finland.
That's right even NEUTRAL Sweden sent us over 8000 men and some supplies, probably the only ones that helped us and in the Continuation war women and children got refuge there as well. Meanwhile the allies in the west full well knew what was happening but decided not to do anything. Even Poland knew the Soviet Union would just be another evil not their saviour. The allies did not help them either.
@@ironicmanx9886 Sweden did not send military troops to Finland, but nearly 9000 volunteers recruited into Finnish forces...
@@ironicmanx9886 "Meanwhile the allies in the west full well knew what was happening but decided not to do anything"
Again, it's kind of hard for them to help when Sweden flatly rejected their request to transfer an Anglo-French expeditionary force overland. And while sure you might say that there's the obvious ulterior motive from the Western Allies wanting to stop German iron ore supplies from Sweden, a combined arms force fighting the Soviets is nothing to sneeze at.
There were no "200,000" German soldiers in Finnish Lapland in 1941, prior the Barbarossa. Even otherwise reasonably credible sources get this often wrong.
On 21.6.1941, one day before the Barbarossa, there were 40,600 German soldiers in Finnish Lapland - 1,5 divisions. At the same time there were some 27,000 soviet soldiers in the Hanko Peninsula, close to Helsinki.
On 22.6.1941 two more German understrength divisions (both were a regiment short), c. 25,000 men, crossed the border from Norway to Finland by the Arctic Sea.
One more German division arrived shortly to the South Karelian Front.
The German forces grew gradually, so that by 1944 there were 9 German divisions/equivalent in Lapland with c. 200,000 soldiers.
Excellent video, well researched! I'm currently writing my thesis on this subject, and I think you're spot on.
thank you!
Hi, I study contemporary history here in Finland and I have thin to add: food and Ukraine.
To make the point more clear I have to start from 1860s. Back then there was a huge famine in finland and around 10% of population died. Back then Finland tried to be self sustaining in food, but officials realized that the country was not able to grow enough food to feed everyone. As we were part of Russian Empire back then decision was made to buy cheap Russian/Ukrainian grain to cover the part of food supply that Finland was not able to produce.
The Civil War in 1918 was partially a "hunger rebellion". As revolutions and the war hindered grain shipments from Russia/Ukraine, Finland was in verge of a famine in the winter of 1917-18. After October Revolution stream of food from Russia came to a halt and the first thing Finland did after the civil war was to secure the food supply from Russia/Ukraine again.
Winter War so short that the food never really became a problem, but there was quite strict rationing program and specially later during Continuation War (1941-44) situation worsened. Bread was only partially with flour, a substitute made from wood or more precisely saw dust called "pettu", was often used. Situation was specially bad in winter of 1943 and 1941-42 after Finland first tried get out of the war and the Reich cut the food supply. In effect it was very important for Finland to stay on the side that controlled it's food supply, so joining the Reich, which appeared unbeatable in 1940-41, was the only logical thing to do as they would control the nations food supply.
Before mentioned separation attempt from the war in 1943 was made because Finnish officials started to see that the Germany was losing the war. The was a Finnish volunteer battalion fighting on side of the German SS in the eastern front from 1941 to 1943. They reported back to Finland that Germans were losing the war so attempt to get out of the war was made, but Germany still controlled the food supply so it was not possible.
Finland only switched sides after ownership of the food supply, namely Ukraine and southern Russia, was changed back to Soviet Union. And again right after war in the fall of 1944 Finland got grain from Soviet Union, grain that we needed to feed all the people.
But yes, everything mentioned in the video probably played their part as well. But food and avoiding famine was one of the main concerns of Finnish leaders during the war.
And yet, Finland is still there.
Or is it?
www.google.com/amp/s/amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/finland-does-not-exist
@@srelma Delete this.
Yours truly~ Not the CIA
@@srelma Welcome to see.
My grandfather was captured during the siege of Leningrad, spent a few years in a Soviet POW camp. My mom was conceived right before he was shipped out [born Nov '44]. He was released some time before 1950 and was awarded an Iron Cross, then emigrated to the US with his young family in '54 [he had a son in Sept '51]. To my knowledge he was an enlisted soldier in the Wermacht and 25 years old when captured.
Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
Rarely is this represented in such accurate manner. Good work!
Impressingly good video!
There *_are_* details that could have been differently worded, but compared to most records in English language, they are just details:
1. Soviet behaviour after the Winter War made it obvious for Finns and Germans alike, that Stalin saw the peace as interimistic. Finns realized this. Germans were informed by Molotov.
2. For this expected Continuation War, Finland was in dire need of weaponry. Only Germany had any on offer. Finland would *_most likely_* not have survived as a neutral country. Co-operation leading to co-belligerence was her best chance. But of course no-one can know.
3. Murmansk actually was important for Germany, because of all American support that came in through the ice-free harbour there.
4. There was a rather strong opinion in Finland wishing to recapture the homes of the 12% of the population who had became internal refugees due to the Winter War
5. The wish to expand Finland beyond the borders of 1939 was a minority opinion, however well represented in the general staff. If Parliament had been asked, it is very unlikely they would have approved such plans. Now it was presented afterwards instead, as "military necessity" and not really a matter for politicians.
An interesting point in this video is that the political and highest military leadership kept on a straight line about taking back what was lost.
What I think it contrasts greatly with is how there was much talk about the so called Three-Isthmus border (from Gulf of Finland, through lakes Ladoga and Onega to the White Sea). While this was mainly an idea supported by AKS during peacetime, it seems to have gained traction politically during the continuation war, even if it ended up not affecting official state policy. It was of course attractive not only in the name of "natural borders" and Karelian liberation, but also in the name of defence policy, as three isthmuses were expected to be more defensible than the long eastern border that was reality.
Another commenter mentioned Ryti's (supposed?) anglophilia as well, and I recall previously reading that Churchill made some efforts to urge Finland not to go beyond our old borders. I don't know how large effect the West ultimately had in Finnish policy, but it seems that even in the continuation war, our leaders might've made serious efforts to placate who they maybe saw as more long-term friends.
They, not the least Mannerheim, but also ambassadors in London and Washington, did their best to keep the remaining democracies happy.
Churchill declaring war on Finland's independence day was a sign of Britain's view on smaller democracies. Their purpose was to suffer, like Poland and the Baltic republics, so that the English ultimately got a chance to win the war.
Most of the Soviet unions "allies" saw them as a threat. Just the second most important one. The moment the axis lost nearly everybody's weapons turned towards them. Finland just started a lot earlier.
After the war, the allies were looking for heads to stick on pikes. They looked at Finland (a confirmed opponent) and left them totally alone.
Finnish leadership was put on trial on war crimes due to soviet pressure, but because they conducted the trials themselves, they were able to dole out comparatively lenient sentences to their own leaders. But people like Risto Ryti went to jail anyway.
Thank you. Another excellent Video
Germany sold Finland to Soviet Union, this is true.
But the way we see it, so did the UK, USA and France, so this 'betrayal' mostly cancelled out and isn't really even remembered anymore.
What Finns do however remember is the German aid in the Finnish Civil War and the Continuation War.
As a result, Finns have a very good image of the Germans and see them as natural friends, even if not as natural allies.
One show of this is still present in the Finnish military, a remnant of the Jaeger movement as many of our battalions are called Jääkäri even today and that is not going away anytime soon.
As a matter of fact, I am personally more worried if Germans today feel we betrayed them in the Continuation War, but that doesn't seem to be the case when you look at Finnish - German relations. Seems to be luke warm at worst, so it seems we're cool with each other.
I think it’s most likely that Finland wouldn’t have defended itself so effectively in the winter war if it wasn’t for the experience gained by the Finnish jaegers during the First World War eastern front. I don’t know it as fact but I assume many Finnish commanders were from this experienced group in the winter war.
@@davedrewett2196 I would imagine you're correct, yes, but I also don't know for certain.
@@davedrewett2196 Yes, the mainly Finnish 27th Jaeger Battalion (Königlich Preussisches Jägerbataillon Nr. 27) was joint to the 8th Army and saw service in the east, like in the battle (more like the skirmish) of Schmarden. They didn't really see that much action while serving in the Imperial German Army in the grand scheme of things though, most of their true battle experience came from the battles fought in the Civil War.
@@davedrewett2196 Yeah. Although the supreme commander Mannerheim was actually a former officer of the Imperial Russian army and saw plenty of places and action in that role. So, funnily enough, he had been on the opposite side to the Jaegers in the Great War. But it didn't really matter since they were all just Finns after the declaration of independence.
@@herrakaarme I guess that gave him a real advantage in knowing the tactics his opposition would use and how they are likely to think.
Finland has always fascinated me. Thanks
Nice to hear that! I know we are pretty weird, thats why rest of the world call us as a black sheep of europe :D
@@TheNismo777
You’re a world unto yourselves. I would like to visit the lands of my grandparents and Finland. Your history and culture are fascinating.
FInland was under swedish rule for 900 years, finnish hakkapelitas are still remembered in middle europe, those guys who made sweden great that time. winter war and continuation war new nation defending war trying to keep itself a nation.
Very good walkthrough of the Finnish situation and the reasons leading up the the Continuation war. The only thing I missed in this was a general picture of the geopolitical reality in northern Europe in the summer of 1940. It's not just that the USSR took over in the Baltics and practically joined Germany in the partition of Poland. The fact that Germany invaded both Denmark and Norway meant that Finland (and Sweden) were completely surrounded by the two totalitarian states. Germany controlled all naval traffic in and out of the Baltic sea, which in practice meant that trading freely was almost impossible. Add to this the fall of France in the summer of 1940, which meant that the Allies were not a choice anymore, when it came to support (add to this the fact that the US joined the Allies much later, in December 1941). There were ideas of a Nordic alliance before Germany invaded both Denmark and Norway, and after that there was an attempt to create a union with Sweden, but this idea was not accepted by both Moscow and Berlin. Finland's political leadership had very few choices in front of them, if the goal was the survival of the republic.
By the way, Finland fought this war as an ally of Germany because Finland wanted to conquer areas like Germany. In fact, the same reason for war! For the same reason the Finns supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to recapture the lost territories in the so-called Winter War. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a "Greater Finland". President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941.
So the Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory against the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. So they themselves became part of the absolute evil! It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain non-Slavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The genocides did not bother them at all and they willingly participated in them as an ally of the Nazi nation.
That was an extensive and more accurate than usual explanation of the facts around this topic. While listening, I noted few points that might have been included or covered in more detail.
- Finland did not only take back its old territory, but also some more. One reason was to get more land area as a buffer zone to better defend Finland. At the early phases of the war some people (not necessarily the leaders) probably also thought/hoped that Finland might get more (Karelian) territory if Germany would win the war.
- Also during the 1944 massive Soviet offensive material help from Germany was essential (weapons, Detachment Kuhlmey). Finland thus cooperated with Germany, and benefited of this cooperation also at that late phase of the war. Soon after that president Ryti (who made this agreement with Germany personally) however resigned, Finland made peace with Soviet Union, and soon Finland was in war against Germany in Lapland. Of course also before the Continuation War, Germany was more like an enemy to Finland because of the secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
- Finland wanted help e.g. from UK and France, but that did not work well in Winter War. Later Germany occupied Denmark and Norway, and after that there was no possibility of getting help from the Allied side. Germany was thus the only option. One could say it was the obvious choice for Finland, in order to survive under the Soviet pressure. Without Germany the fate of Finland might have quite different.
- Finland had a quite positive relation with Germany due to getting help from it in the war of independence. Finland had Germany oriented officers (Jäger Movement), but also old Russian officers (e.g. Mannerheim), and also officers that were more Allied oriented.
To add to this, Finland was rather out of other potential allies or partners to buy weapons from. Finland entered the Winter War underequipped - Britain and France had made sales, but those trickled down and Britain sided with Soviet Union politically. In autumn '39, by November, Finland had received only one arms shipment from France , none from the British. The British had canceled their weapon sales to Finland in September '39. Basically after the Winter War Finland could either A) pivot towards Germany B) go neutral C) pivot towards democratic western countries, especially Britain. After the invasion of Norway option C was out the window, and B would have meant staying alone.
There was an ongoing low intensity conflict between Finland and The USSR states that involved kidnapping hundreds of people. I think this conflict lasted until the 1950s, albeit they still had problems at the Estonian border in 2018. Option B is also difficult, which is why Estonia is a member of NATO.
One quote probably explains it best ( I don’t exactly remember who said it but it was some Finnish soldier) “when you have to choose between the devil and satan you tend to make a mistake”. The quote is way funnier in Finnish and it’s not an exact translation but I couldn’t come up with anything better
Decisively the best description I have seen on this matter in TH-cam. Finns had their own goals, as Germans had theirs. Those goals happened to partly coincide. Indeed, Finland never participated in the siege of Leningrad which you can still see if you visit that city. They have maintained there some historical signs of that time. The warning signs read: "During hostile artillery fire this side of the street is safe." Interestingly enough that side was always the southern side because Germans fired from south. The Finnish artillery instead could not even reach Leningrad and there were no Soviet supply routes coming to Leningrad from north, to be blocked by the Finns.
@@ВячеславСкопюк if you look at the map it’s clear that the siege ring would have been easiest to close on the isthmus not 100s of km away in east Karelia. It’s simple really, Finnish leaders didn’t want anything to do with Leningrad.
@@ВячеславСкопюк hey, the Big blunder was made by Soviet starting the winter war, without it there would not have been any Finnish-Russo war 1941-44.
You can whine aboutet it, or you could learn from it as a man.
The Winter war 1939-40 must be one of 20 centuries greatest strategic blunders, as it created the situation it was intended to secure from.
Great video! Of course you need to remember one main reason Soviets did not walk in streets of Helsinki 1944: Finnish army was able to regroup and win pretty important defensive battles in summer.
Why did the Axis join the Finns?
While Ryti and Mannerheim were not part of it there was very significant pro-Germany block in Finish politics that had a considerable political influence. During the 1930s several journalists were sentenced for libel against Hitler for publishing newspaper columns critical of Hitler and the Nazis. This pro-Germany feeling is about as old as the idea of Finland as a nation-state, both got started when the elites of (Grand Dutchy of) Finland had gone to german universities and picked up Hegelian philosophy.
There was a lot of manifest destiny kind of thinking about reclaiming all of Karelia as part of Greater-Finland that was mainstreamed by organisations like Akteeminen Karjalaseura. There was a lot of tension between the Karelia and the Karelians in the Finnish nationalist rhetoric as this authentic ur-Finns unspoiled by modernity and in practice they were often considered with suspicion as half-russians because of their eastern-orthodox faith and the Karelian language that has a lot of loan words from russian language. There is were few things that finnish nationalists hated more in the first half of the 20th century than loan words from russian or swedish polluting the beautifull finnish language.
Yes and while Finland did not share nazi politics there was forced population deportation of russians to camps in conquered Karelia
So while Finland was not as bad as other german allies they did shady stuff too
In every western and democratic country there were these kinds of people. They usually had positions of "authoritarian power" such as being military officers and judges, also among students a there were alot of ultra-conservatives. However due to being totally unssupported by the public, they were usually very anonymous until they got chance to make a real difference.
The pro-German sentiment is way older than that, dating at least to the days of the Hanseatic League, and more importantly; the Protestant Reformation.
Always loved Finland. Now I love them more. Makes me happy knowing they were just defending themselves. Great video!
That's why they've always been my favourite among WWII nations. Basically screwed over by everyone, pragmatic enough to simply ally with whoever will help them *simply keep existing*, but also not formally join or accept those allies' ideologies (etc). Probably one of the best historical examples of the idiom "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".
They were also the first to completely pay off their war reparations.
Nah, you missed the point here. It was USSR defending itself by means of Winter war from an overly aggressive neighbor jumping at the first opportunity to grab some land.
USSR defending itself, lmao, that's a good joke.
@@BleedingUranium Good offence is the best defense!
Finland had declared neutrality in 1939, to stay out of the Russian and German spheres of influence, and to stay out of war, but the great powers would not allow it.
In 1941, the Finnish leadership understood that there would be a full scale war between Germany and USSR. They also understood that if Finland did not choose their side in the war, the German army and the Red army would still fight on Finnish soil at some point. After all, Stalin's desire to annex Finland had not gone anywhere, and Germans wanted the Nickel ore of northeastern Finland.
A War bwtween two superpowers on Finnish soil would have been a disaster to the population of Finland. Because of attacking along with the Germans, the 3 years of fighting the Continuation war mostly took place in very sparsely populated regions near the Eastern border. These areas could be completely evacuated, so there was a relatively small number of civilian casualties.
It should also be needless to say why Finland thought joining Germany was the lesser of two evils.
To my knowledge, at least some Finns might have wanted also take other regions (basically East Karelia) with Finnic populations in addition to those lost in the Winter War.
There was a big movement in Finland for Greater Finland and Mannerheim was for it all the way prior to the loss and his presidency. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Scabbard_Declaration
Yes. There was such an opinion. However a minority in parliament. There were no opinion polls made, so we can't know about the population at large. But most likely, it was a _relatively_ small minority.
Yes, there was some fantasies of seeing the kinship wars from 20 years earlier through, but the leadership seemed to have very realistic attitude about that. Despite Mannerheim's declaration, he seemed to be very careful not to get too entangled in the war.
Another interesting video!
Finland sounds like the normal guy named Stanley in a group of villains (of various effectiveness)
They did shady stuff as well
@@dwarow2508
And is this supposed to prove something?
That’s like saying “Hey this guy stole 20 bucks, clearly he is on the same moral judgement with the serial killers”
And that’s if you provided a actual example instead of saying the obvious “a country isn’t pure!” Statement
@@dwarow2508 Every participant did. The Americans for example besieged islands into starvation and death in the Pacific, killed surrendering and captured Japanese and conducted mass rape in western Europe and Germany, not unlike the Red army. War is a generally evil affair
@@sirjanska9575
The USA did not besiege islands to death in the pacific, did not kill surrending Japanese POWs (rogue US soldiers ignoring laws don't count) and did not conduct mass rape in Europe that was supported by the government, same for the Red Army.
As Germany was the main agressor that caused said crimes, it was the sole evil side.
@@dwarow2508 Hahahahahahahaha
What happened later? The hostages of the occupation of Tornio in the Lapland War were Finnish civilians captured by German troops in connection with the landing of Tornio by the Finns. A total of 232 prisoners were threatened with shooting if the Finns did not release the German prisoners of war they had captured earlier.
Lieutenant Colonel Halsti, who commanded the troops of Tornio, responded, that if something happens to the Finns or the property of the Finns, he will shoot all over hundred German prisoners of war in his possession, as well as the staff and patients of the German military hospital in Tornio.
The answer was apparently convincing, as the German officer who acted as messenger is said to have left in a shock. The Germans did not execute their hostages, but declared them useless due to the sharp negative position of the Finns. All the hostages were transported to Rovaniemi to the County Government building.
Germans were tough as Krupp steel back then, but Finns were even tougher against anyone threatening them. Freezing stuff.
The most Finns wanted the lost territory back, but actually many Finns wanted more than that. There was an ideology, that thought Finland should take whole Finnic land to themselves. They called it Greater Finland. It could have been achieved only along with Nazi Germany. The Finns even captured Petrozavodsk at the time, but the war didn't end well for the Finns nor the Germans (nor the Soviets).
This. Finland even renamed Petrozavodsk to Äänislinna, and pretty much incorporated captured territories beyond the 1939 border. Also, in said unofficially annexed territories, ethnically Finnic people were treated like unofficial Finnish citizens, while Russians were interned into concentration camps for future expulsion.
I know a bunch were fully on board with the Greater Finland idea but does anyone know a good source - or even any source - about how common it was amongst the general public? There were also some who opposed any occupation of Soviet territory even temporarily during the war, but I suppose those were in a minority.
On the other hand, I assume most of the general public thought it pragmatically rather than ideologically, so any end to the conflict that didn't notably impair their well-being on the long run would've been welcomed. So, I suspect any quantitative analysis of the matter would be somewhat imprecise at the very least.
Edit: For the record, my grandma with her schoolmates was one of those on board. But they lived in Southern Ostrobothnia, which was (and probably still is) one of the most anti-communist and anti-Russian parts of Finland.
If Germany wasn't any ally of Finland then Finland had no Allies!. At the meeting in Berlin in November 1940 Hitler warned Molotov to keep their hands off of Finland. Did we miss this somehow? The answer to the that question was that Germany was arming Finland.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Also you have to remeber the Lapland War. After the Continuation War was over we had to chase the germans out of Lapland so they mined the whole place while retreating
There's a fascinating battle during the Lapland war, when the Germans tried to forcibly take the island of Suursaari from the Finnish garrison, but the Red Air Force intervened and the landing failed, with 2000 Germans surrendering. It's possibly the only time Finns and Soviets fought on the same side in ww2.
Only after Soviets threathened us to chase Germans out by force, whereas before that we had planned their retreat together. We had no quarrel of our own.
This is a complicated issue. Finland fought the Soviets during the revolution times, there was always a shadow of the communism reaching all those satellite States of Soviet Union, and Finland was even worse as it was once part of the Russian Empire. I think they might have feared the Soviet a lot back then. Not only the Fins but also the Swedish, hence their little AT gun that brought havoc to some Soviet tanks in the Winter War.
Nevertheless, the northern front was very important strategically for the Axis. What made the difference there was mainly the geography. It was the worst environment in the whole war after the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps. No wonder why such super power like the Soviet Union took a beat from the Fins in 1940. It wasn't just for problems in the Soviet military. I have read some stuff about Operation Silver Fox and the advance towards Murmansk. Very difficult place to get through. The Germans compromised even tanks there. For even special forces to reach the Murmansk railway it was almost sort of an Indiana Jones adventure. By the way, nobody talks about Operation Silver Fox, even Mark Felton doesn't have a video about it. One of the most forgotten offensives of WWII. And by the way again, there was an Operation in Lake Ladoga during WWII called Operation Brazil. I don't have idea why this name, but it's still awesome have an operation called Brazil. Mark Felton doesn't have a video about it neither.
Tu tamben Cobras Fumantes.
Gotta set it right, fear is not a thing here at north, it doesn't exist :)
@@TheNismo777 There is fear everyday when we open door. Fear of bumping on to neighbor =/
During the Winter War in 1939-1940, Finland was promised help by the UK and France. That help never came.
Also, during the Winter War the USSR took Finland's second largest city, Viipuri. So, during the Continuation War, they had a justification for taking The USSR's second largest city, Leningrad. There are two reasons why they didn't. 1. They merely wanted their land back. 2. Mannerheim saw how poorly the German troops that Germany had sent them fought. He could see that Germany could not succeed beating the USSR in the long run. So, he restrained his troops for a better outcome at the end of the Continuation War.
A little story about jewish soldiers in Finnish Army. Three of them were awarded with Iron Cross by Germans. When one of these officers was asked if he would receive it, he gave a colorful response where Germans could put that medal. Liason officer toned down the declination message for Germans.
Jewish soldiers fighting alongside Germans must have been a tormenting decision. But they were Finns first.
The term is co -belligerents. Same enemy but not allies. Finland just wanted their territory back and also continuing security.
Is that term ever used in any other context than Finland and Nazi Germany? Seems like a diplomatic innovation concocted for propaganda purposes.
@@anderskorsback4104 Yes. Finland was fighting to regain it's territory, defending itself and didn't advance into Russia itself. Germany was invading to take over and control. They had different objectives just with the same enemy.
@@binaway so having different objectives means not being allies? In that case, is there any single historical case in history of countries actually being allies? Germany, Italy and Japan had different objectives too, all had their own territorial ambitions and didn't really care if the other two succeeded or failed to accomplish theirs.
Also, you are incorrect. The Finnish army advanced way beyond the old border of 1939, and started reworking the captured territory in preparation for annexation. Cities were renamed, Russians were put into prison camps in preparation for expulsion.
@Fluesterwitz what exactly does "joining the Allies" mean? Did such an entity as "The Allies" officially, formally exist? To claim that there is no alliance unless it is diplomatically formalized is an incredibly narrow view, divorced from the reality of international diplomacy. For instance, it would mean that contemporary Israel and Saudi Arabia aren't allies of the USA.
@@anderskorsback4104 "Did such an entity as "The Allies" officially, formally exist?" Yes. And alliance is defined as a formal diplomatic treaty between nations, like how Israel and Saudi Arabia have political and military treaties with USA that regulate their cooperation.
This channel is maturing into something decent that truly adds to the historical analysis of military history of ww2 and it's context
Would like to know more about why the Finns would not do more to help the Nazis to capture Leningrad. The strategic significance should have been clear to the Finns. It is probably the biggest question I have about WW2.
Mannerheim was a St. Petersburg citizen. He could never accept destroying it and the people.
I thought the Finns only wanted Karelia back?
@@sampohonkala4195 Kiitos! Did he write about this in his memories/autobiography if he did one? Looking for a source.
"It was for political reasons, which in opinion outweighed the military, that I was against participating in an attack on Leningrad. The constant argument of the Russias in their trudge to encroach on Finnish territory was, that an independent Finland was a threat to the secons capital of the Soviet Union. We did therefore best in not proving our opponent right in this matter, which wasn't going to be resolved, even by the end of the war."
Mannerheim's memoirs, my own translation from Swedish.
They only wanted what was lost, anymore would poke the bear,
Thanx for this. Very helpful.
Well, Marshal of Finland C.G.E. Mannerheim was the highest ranking officer (General of Cavalry) to serve in both World Wars. And he managed to serve on the both sides of the conflict in both wars too. (He got his Iron Cross during the First World War.)
Mannerheim was such a Chad
This.
Very accurate I would say. However, I think the true reason why Finland joined operation Barbarossa was not to get back the land lost in the Winter War. The loss of that land in a way justified the operation, but the true reason was the anticipated new invasion by the Soviets. If a new war had started from the 1940 border, Finland would immediately lose, because the positions were not favorable for defending the country - the main roads and railroads were way too close. All fortifications had been ceded to the Soviets. To hold your ground in a war as long as possible against an enemy that is much stronger, the only thing you can try to do is to pick your position and fight where you are at your best, in this case in the wilderness.
I think this is quite obvious when you look at the map. The Finnish front was pushed to the large lakes of Carelia to form a land border as short as possible. This was not even former Finnish land, but simply the best possible position for defending with an army that was much smaller than the enemy. So the goal was not to so much to get something back, but to fight for what you had left. This situation Finland handled quite well.
Stating that Moscpw did not send the Red Army to southern Finland is a bit silly - Finland had an army 500 000 troops strong at the end of the war, ready to continue fighting. The troops that Moscow had sent to southern Finland were destroyd in the battle of Tali - Ihantala during June and July. The Red Army was stuck and Moscow offered peace terms that were acceptable; Finland accepted and the Finnish army never surrendered. The army had total control of the Finnish territory (ok, there are minor exceptions) and Moscow could not do anything that was not agreed upon in the armistice terms. Finland had obviously lost the war, but only by points, it was not a knockout. This also helped to regain normal relations between the two countries fairly fast.
Congratultions! You have just summoned all Finns to the comment section 😎
:D
The Finns experienced some diplomatic pressure from the United States, during the Continuation War. Though the UK declared war on Finland (and Hungary and Romania - and rather late, 5 December 1941), the United States did not. NOT participating in any Wehrmacht offensive against Leningrad may have been one of those inactivities that prevented a US declaration of war, and along with it, a possible US bomber offensive. And it may have been American diplomatic pressure that mitigated the Soviet attitude toward the Finns. Keep in mind also that Americans were sympathetic toward the Finns in the 1940 Winter War, so this may have contributed to deterring an American declaration of war, as well.
Already in Tehran conference in December 1943 both Roosevelt and Churchill (despite the declared war between Finland & United Kingdom) spoke favourably about Finland to Stalin urging him to make separate peace with Finland.
Love the accent! Love the channel. The Eastery one more. Which country are you from?
Angry typing of how the Finnish never joined the axis
You’re too slow
bastard beat me too it
No no! We only attacked Soviet Union alone! We were only co-belligerents!!!11oneoneeleven.. /s
I remember you on TIK comment section claiming Finland as part of Axis 🤣 Hope you don't follow fake historians anymore, TIK is full of sht
@@ninaakari5181 We Finns tend to be denialists when it comes to these things to be honest. Like our prison camps had high casualty rates because we had a massive famine during the winter of 1941/42. There was no systematic maltreatment but nobody had food so Russian POW's were definitely not highly ranked in the list of who to give food to. This caused a lot of POW's to actually go work on Finnish farms all over the country because conditions were a lot better there. But yes we Finns like to think we were extremely righteous and when a researcher does something to suggest otherwise, he's usually shouted down by the morons.
@@Perkelenaattori My comment was aimed for initiator of this chain
I always feel sorry for the Finns. They got bullied by the USSR, and purely because they did better against them than Poland, the Baltic States or Romania, and didn't "side flip" in the same way as Romania (far worse in terms of their participation in the war and war crimes), they were treated far worse in terms of post-war reparations and such. Stalin got his revenge on the little Republic that dared to defy his insane grasp for power, basically.
The Italians did supply (sell?) fighter aircraft and Carcano rifles to Finland before 1941.
Finland bought 25 Fiat G.50 fighters from Italy 23.10.1939 and 10 more 31.1.1940. And Carcano 'Terni' rifles (mostly used by the artillery because it was considered not suitable for frontline action).
Also Italian Steel Helmets were purchased.
@@mtlb4906 Fiat G.50 killing ratio was extremely good 1:33.
@@jounisuninen Yes it was. Finnish pilots liked it a lot, it's performance and handling. But allthough it's killing ratio was exellent must be remembered that many kills Fiat pilots achieved were unescorted bombers. For example 11 bombers at the first day of the continuation war.
My knowledge of the Finns is from the Sven Hassel novels ,the Finns were highly reguarded
12:26 - Finland actually had operations against the Murmansk railway. And at least one of those is being documented pretty well (in Finnish at least). For Finns, Google Kaukopartio + Muurmanni (Kaukopartio=Long range recon patrol or smth like that)
I'm very skeptical of all of this and suspect the Finnish role has been heavily whitewashed.
@@alan6832 role in what? In the raid of the railway? One guy literally documented the whole ordeal, and it included of 2000 guys. What do you mean?
The Finnish long range recon groups occasionally *sabotaged* the Murmansk railway against standing orders, but it's a far cry from the Finnish army actually advancing to permanently cut it off, which is what was referred to.
@@mumblerinc.6660 Sure, in the operation which I referred earlier, the goal in that one was to capture and hold the station for 3 days, but it wasn't going to happen that time. There are many other stories about Murmansk sabotage operations too. And, because the Peace treaty with Soviets, A LOT (almost everything) of the documents and records of all those that would be nowadays considered "special operations", was destroyed. Basically, only individual personal records was kept (and those hidden too). Almost everything was destroyed, and ya'll can figure out why...
Finland needed to import food supplies and Germany promised to provide nutrition to people. Germany expressed the intention of it's military presence in Finland, and Finland had no military means to stop this from happening, so it was better to agree peacefully. Lack of food and ammunition left no real choice to Finland 1940-1941.
Thank you for answering this question. I have wondered about it because the Finns are mentioned at times working with the Germans but there never seem to be any great detail about their involvement especially after what they accomplished in the Winter War.
Good information.
You can argue that Finland joined the Axis, but not without losing meaning from the concept of an Axis faction.
Considering that Finland only really cooperated with Germany, never signed the Tripartite pact and take the Anti-Comintern pact at face value, the notion of Finland joining the Axis doesn't really have any foundation in reality. At that point you might as well just come up with any random division into winner/loser, good/evil, red/blue, hot/cold, left/right, up/down, onion/garlic or whatever factions you want and call it a day.
Finland collaborated with German military, allowed it to use Finnish territory, got help from the Germans in summer 1944 and would have benefited from an Axis victory.
I think it's fair to use the term "joined" in quotation marks as was done in this video. It's not a membership in the Axis alliance the same way as with those countries that signed the tripartite treaty, but on the other hand, you could say that Finland contributed a lot more to the German war effort against the Soviets than, say, Bulgaria who never even declared war on the USSR.
@@srelma Well yeah, you can say that Finland joined the Axis in the war against Soviet Union, but then again Japan didn't join the war even though it was in the Axis. So, it's complicated.
The Fins left Army Group North in a bad spot. They were to help out but never did.
I remember reading in 'Russia at War', in the accounts on the siege of Leningrad, that the people would often try and walk (and queue for rations) on the south side of the street. That way you had some protection from shells coming from the south (i.e. the German lines) but exposed to those coming from the north (Finnish lines). Tells you where the majority of the shelling came from, and aligns with your points about Finnish inaction in the siege.
The accounts from the siege in that book are incredibly harrowing, at one point the ration for Red Army soldiers (In an active combat zone in the Russian Winter) was 1600 calories. For civilians in the city it was about 500-700 calories on paper, and many parents gave most of their rations to their children. The siege is simultaneously a monument to both human cruelty and human endurance.
"but exposed to those coming from the north (Finnish lines)" In fact there was nothing to come ... Finnish artillery was too far from Leningrad to reach the city.
You have limited options when you're caught between the Nazis and a Stalin place.
Stunningly simple - "The enemy of my enemy ......"
6:20 A comment on this: A third of the Jäger volunteers stayed behind in Germany, often because they were not seen as ideologically reliable to fight on the side of the Finnish government against the Bolshevik-backed rebelling Reds. A few returning Jägers also joined the Reds instead, or abstained from the war, though the overwhelming majority of those that returned fought for the government, i.e. White forces.
7:20 200k Germans is not correct, that's for 1944. By 1st of July 1941 there were only something like 70-80k Germans in Finland.
10:50 Minor correction, but the Finns weren't pushed out of Karelia, only parts of it. By September 1944 they even held a good chunk of East (Soviet) Karelia.
Also I wish you had talked about the biggest driving factor as to why the Finns joined the German side, besides the Winter War itself, namely the continued demands, extortions, violations of the peace treaty and meddling with Finnish domestic and foreign affairs that the USSR continued to exercise on Finland well after the Winter War. In 1940 Finland had sought to ally with Sweden and Norway, then only with Sweden after Norway fell, but Moscow was strictly against this, claiming it was a "revanchist alliance to attack the USSR", as was Berlin, though the latter's attitude was less hysterical, instead being along the lines of "if you ally yourself with Sweden, we will not care if Russia attacks you again". In November 1940 Molotov travelled to Berlin and the first thing on his list of demands to Hitler was a green light to finish the job that Soviet Russia had started in November 1939, but been forced to postpone in March 1940 under threat of Allied intervention, and was now being blocked from attacking Finland by a Finno-German troop transit agreement regarding troops stationed in Northern Norway. All this is what drove Finland to side with Germany: there was no other alternative, except Russian occupation.
Excellent points, kiitos. Do you think that the shooting down of the Kaleva in 1940 added an extra layer of mistrust? Probably just one of many such layers
Since we're talking about Finnish Civil War, I would also add that Germans were already Supplying the finnish nationalists with weapons in 1917 (mostly captured mosins) and landed actual German army troops to support the "whites" during the civil war.
I think this is important to understand the scale of german aid during Finnish civil war.
@@blackore64 yes, the independent Finland was originally supposed to become a kingdom and not a republic with a certain German noble already picked as a king.
However, 1918 saw Germany lose the war and that point it wasn't that good thing to be so strongly sided with them. So Finns abandoned that idea and became a republic instead. During the inter-war years Finland as a democracy was seeking allies mainly among Europe's other democracies and not the fascists. Ryti was a strong Anglophile and would have rather have seen Finland ally with them than Nazis.
Not sure if subtle jab on That one Tik video. But it is appreciated
what [was supposedly a jab] and which one [video]? edit: to clarify the questions
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Finland Continuation War in a nutshell. Only said what I did cause of wtaht you said in the beginning about Finland not being a member of the Axis
This video th-cam.com/video/cPTc1HsoHA4/w-d-xo.html
@@Vekstar nope, was not about TiK, I didn't knew he did a video on the continuation war. The join the Axis was mostly due to keeping the title short.
"Why Finland joined the Axis?"
Why you joined the Soviet Union? You have much more to answer for.
Finland DID actually cut the Murmansk railway line, but the Soviets moved it east after. The misconception that we didn't is often repeated in defense of the "separate war" -argument.
I guess you refer to a long-range patrol behind enemy lines led by Arnold Majewski. A.F Airo planned a larger operation that would have caused a US declaration of war, but it was canceled.
@@jussim.konttinen4981 No, he refers to the western line. Eastern line, and single line in north were not cut. Also, in addition to Murmansk there was an Arkangel harbour that was used in lend and lease transports.
It's a perfect case of allies of convenience who fight on the same side, but not _really_ together.
The 2002 film, _The Cuckoo_ does a very good job in illustrating the Finns' complicated relationship with Germany and the Soviet Union in WWII, all in the guise of a love triangle with a Laplander woman.
Was she hot? (Required guy question)
@@scottgiles7546,
I read that in Diego's voice from, _Napoleon Dynamite._
That movie is excellent! Especially that the three of them, the Russian, the Finn and the Sami woman, all speak separate languages. Wonderful conversations between people who don't understand each other at all.
Our politicians at the time did play the game pretty well as no foreign power did occupy the whole Finland.
It's funny how the various Russian empires foreign politics always end up making neighboring countries angry at them.
The same applies to British Empire or US.
Needless to say, if the Russian Empire behaved anything like Anglo-Saxon empires did, Finnish affairs would not have been "foreign politics", since those lands would have been populated by Russians and the very few surviving Finns would have miserably dwelt in reservations.
In the times when Finns had the Parliament, constitution and press in their language, courtesy of the Russian monarchy, the British monarchy was exterminating freedom fighters and civilians in India by tying them to cannons before shooting, and the American 'democracy' was paying bounties for scalps of indigenous women and children.
@@Tallorian That is because Finland is completely irrelevant part of Europe that wasnt worth the time and effort. If major trade route went through Finland, or if Finland had significant natural resources then Russia would have done a lot more.
@@herakles6185 Finland was, and still is, very relevant part fo Europe from Russian perspective for many reasons. And one of the most important trade routes of Russian Emprie from St. Petersburg went through gulf of Finland.
@@herakles6185 It is not correct.
1. The territory of Finland (same as the southern Baltic coast) was a contested territory in conflicts between Russians and Swedes for many centuries, almost for a thousand years (since the recorded history of Russia started only in 860, when the viking warlord Rurik was invited to rule in Novgorod). Both sides considered those territories important enough to keep fighting. Finns, however, did not have any state or national identity, so they just remained an indigenous population rather than actors in this perpetual struggle.
2. No matter if those territories would have had more significance. On a more strategically significant directions Russia never conducted any ethnical cleansing, mass scale exterminations or enslavement of locals like British, Spanish and Americans did. Of course, expansion was not always bloodless, but such racist and genocidal policy of "cleaning the land for ourselves" and slavery (later adopted by Hitler) was never a goal or an instrument in the Russian kit.
P.S. On the web you can find a few myths about "genocides by Russians" launched by British and Americans, but they are easily refutable and are nothing but an element of propaganda war. Quite typical anglo-saxon feature - attributing their own sins and crimes to those who they see as their competition/enemy.
My Opa was with the 8th Panzer Division. He said they kept waiting for the Fins to show up but they never did
Because the Finnish air force already was using swastikas (since 1918, nothing to do with nazis) and them joining the allies would make everything very confusing
"Insignia of the Finnish Air Force 1918-1945. = Swedish count Eric von Rosen gave the Finnish White government its second aircraft, a Thulin Typ D.[3] Von Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm - a blue swastika, the ancient symbol of the sun and good luck, with no political connotation at the time - was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. The white circular background was created when the Finns painted over the advertisement from the Thulin air academy."
@@TammoKis Thank you for adding more explanation to my shitposting.
@@bami2 ;)
Looking at the tightrope they needed to walk the Finns did a masterful job
...so, the treaty to join the Axis had never quite been ... *finnished*...? :-D
(ba-dumm-tss)
It was because nobody wanted to help only germany wanted
Short answer: a common enemy.
The convergence of Finland and Germany in 1940-1941 deals with the convergence of the countries' foreign policy during the post-Winter War truce and the events before Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union and the outbreak of the Continuation War.
The Winter War ended in Moscow's peace on March 13, 1940. During the summer, Hitler changed his repulsive foreign policy stance towards Finland. Soviet pressure and German influence With a view to Finland's defense. In Finland, Germany's offer for transit and arms sales seemed to alleviate the cramped situation after the Winter War. Germany, on the other hand, needed Finland to implement the attack plan on the eastern front, which was completed in November 1940, and because of the strategic nickel resources of Petsamo. As a result, Finland first moved from the Soviet sphere of influence to a more balanced position in the late 1940s and finally to the de facto German sphere of influence, and later with the subsequent war to fight alongside Germany against the Soviet Union.
The agreement of 18 June 1935 was crucial for the security of the Baltic Sea region
British-German naval agreement. The agreement lifted the restrictions imposed on the German fleet by the Peace of Versailles. Britain agreed to allow Germany to increase its fleet to 35% of British tonnage. In practice, the agreement meant that when the war broke out, the Royal Navy could not operate in the Baltic Sea. For the countries of the Baltic Sea region, this in turn meant that the Royal Navy could not secure their foreign trade, nor could it provide military assistance when war broke out. By 1940, the small countries of the Baltic Sea had all come under the interest of Germany or the Soviet Union.
Finland's goal was not only get back the areas they lost during Winter War, but to also get Eastern Karelia. Finland had wanted Eastern Karelia from the beginning as a part of Greater Finland. This Greater Finland ideology was very prominent in the Finnish leadership at the time. Mannerheim was firm believer in Greater Finland and references Greater Finland in july 11, 1941 in his day order.
Claim that Finland would only want the old border back doesn't hold water when Finland went over the old border very early. Which was even at the time really controversial decisions. Hundreds of soldiers refused to cross the old border and it had negative effects on morale because many viewed it illegal.
While I admire working class grunts, I don’t imagine being smarter than a field marshal. Every leader eventually encounters push back. Unlike some power-hungry politicians, Gustaf Mannerheim resigned twice.
After the war, Lauri Törni and weapons officer Arvo Männistö hid their weapons in Eno's wilderness, and in 1991 Mauno Koivisto's LMG was also found. In other words, there was still anti-communist resistance in 1944, at a time when Finland was at war with the Nazi-Germany.
There might have been also an economic agenda. Finland had a strong forest industry and leadership of that has had a tight relatioship with political parties. Much of the areas occupied east of old border were heavily forested. There have been theories that some hoped result of the war being much more raw material for the factories.
I've seen this written in some books but it is not widely discussed or researched.
The Finn's wanted more than the territory they ceded after the winter war. They wanted all of "greater Karelia".
Quite impressed by this, not bundling us Finns in the same with everyone else in Axis side.
I want to add the fact about our history with Russians, as part of Sweden we got into many wars against them.
Couple times during these several hundred years area now called Finland was overrun and population got severy "punished".
Eventually Sweden forced to give up the whole area to Russians in the last war they lost.
Rememberance of those horrific actions was still part of old folklore and tales and the anger against the aggressor too, contributing to the general attitude against Soviet union.
in fact, Finland joined forces with Germany because Britain and the United States promised to help Finland in the fight against the Soviet Union, but help never arrived, so this also had a strong effect on Finland's alliance with Germany. Finland felt betrayed by the promise
"A enemy of my enemy is my friend" probably sums it up.
The enemy of my enemy is still my potential enemy. - Every neutral country ever.
Are you considering a segment about the Italian torpedo boat activities on Lake Ladoga?
no