The Best Minecraft Speedrunner actually just cheated his runs
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 พ.ย. 2022
- After 2 years, a top Minecraft Speedrunner was caught in a massive cheating plot, faking multiple world records and getting away with it. MinecrAvenger has now been deleted.
LEMMiNO - Cipher
• LEMMiNO - Cipher (BGM)
CC BY-SA 4.0
#Minecraft #Speedrun #Cheating - เกม
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Damn the fact he made so many of his runs just *slightly* better than his brother’s is some level of pettiness I haven’t seen before.
clearly youve never heard of billy mitchell
@@WeebJail That guy is probably the only person who will file more lawsuits than Trump when he doesn't get his way. He already tried suing Karl Jobst once and he he already trying to do it again.
@@_gungrave_6802 oh he would if he had the money or the influence for that many frivolous lawsuits, luckily the number of people who can do that is relatively limited.
...luckily, he says as if the court system isn't a fucking trainwreck lol
@@_gungrave_6802 nice name
That's some Reverse Flash-levels
A German speedrunner who has a literal evil twin? A Doppelgänger!
doofenshmirtz
@@cheesecak11857 doofenshmirtz has more credit than this guy, I mean he at least has an evil sad backstory
@@fleaths even his parents didn't show up on his birth day...
Life imitates art.
The use of Doo_liss Battle for the reveal is pretty great to go with that theming.
As a programmer I can appreciate the guy who generated and checked 200 trillion chest patterns.
nerd
@@Monkchelle_Kongbama pervert
@@Monkchelle_Kongbama weeb
@@Monkchelle_Kongbama fucktard
@@Monkchelle_Kongbama virgin
Once you pointed out that his runs were always just a bit faster than his brothers, that basically summed up everything I could possibly need to know about his motivations going forward.
😂😂😂
...Seriously, the twin brother of a legit runner? What kind of hack writer is writing the plot of reality?!
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense.
@@Omnicrom Fiction has to make sense? Ok on a surface level I get what you MEAN but like. No. It doesn't. There are plenty of works of fiction that don't make sense. Course there is an argument to be made for the difference between intentionally vague vs just bad writing. And anything inbetween. (It's 3 am where I am. Im doing good to keep my thoughts together atm so sorry if im not making much sense.)
@@Guardian-of-Light137 You're being kinda pedantic but I like pedantry so here's some argumentatin':
Fiction has to make sense because of the suspension of disbelief-- I guess you could say fiction has to have _internal_ consistency, or else it'll lose the viewers/readers/players if it just randomly pulls "AND IT WAS HIS EVIL TWIN SABOTAGING HIM BY STEALING HIS FAME ALL ALONG!!!!"
In fiction, if you pull that off, you're either going to delight your audience as they suddenly remember a bunch of foreshadowing that was eyebrow-raising and maybe for vindicating their theory, or you're going to get roasted for being a worse hack than Uwe Boll or something.
There isn't such a threshold IRL: we hear something that's _improbable_ and we tend to assume it's impossible and call it fake (sometimes for good reasons, sometimes because we don't want to). --unless someone's a conspiracy theorist but those idiots believe in secret illuminati satanists eating adrenal glands from children like in that one 70's sci-fi book and that aliens built the pyramids with dinosaurs.
@@Guardian-of-Light137 Even fiction that doesn't make sense has to have certain consistencies within itself and its inconsistencies or it isn't well written. If stuff just happens without any consideration for what's happening it ain't good fiction. In writing even nonsense has to be sensible even if it makes no sense.
@@neoqwerty yeah, it's clearly oversimplified at first, for example a codemy of error has to no make sense in multiple instances. But it make sense in the way it delivers a clear message.
SmallAnt didn't commentate this video. it was LargeHornet
I knew I recognised that voice from somewhere, Mr BigTermite
I thought I heard that voice Mr HugeBeetle
Nice to see you Mr. MediumMantis
That sounds right
AverageBee
I love how the beginning of the video sets up my expectations that NiceTwice is a cheater ... Then surprising me by mentioning his brother , didn't expect that
And not just his brother, his twin brother.
He was actually only NiceOnce
The fact that this dude is kinda almost literally the Evil Twin Brother of an actual legitimate speedrunner elevates this from interesting to HILARIOUS
Ikr
I'll admit, this is the first time I've heard of a speedrunner having an evil twin. It didn't disappoint.
Just because only 1 got caught doesn't mean the other doesn't cheat as well.
@@jursamaj Just because his twin is a cheater doesn't mean he is a cheater
@@domirosner Yes, but he could be just as easily. Plus, being twins, they likely have a lot in common, including moral outlook. And as the known cheater generally only beat the other by a few seconds, odds are they were both cheating.
@@jursamaj No lol that's exactly why he got away with cheating, you can't beat the world record by huge margins
@@domirosner I'd say he got away with cheating because their "verification" system sucks.
Despite how lame cheating is, the lengths people go to catch them in the act is fascinating as hell. Great video.
ye, if you see the lengths players go in many games, makes it obvious all the conspiracy theories in the real world are not far fetched at all.
when there are billions upon trillions to earn..
its all true, folks.
yuws.
fr tho
What you said and the amount of people's time he wasted by making a lie forcing them to spend hours of research to prove the cheating. Utter scum baggery.
well considering strange things occurred that couldn't be replicated you have no choice but to grind through the endless void to be 100% sure they are not who they say they are.
thissssss
The fact that Minecraft players have been able to analyze the game to a level where they can figure out if you're cheating is so cool.
Amazing how they still can't prove Dream cheated though🤣
@@gabrielallen6827 they did wdym
@@blizyon30fps86 nope, saying Dreams run was 1 in a quadrillion chance(which dream disputes) does not prove its cheating. You have to prove its impossible like was done here(in this case they generated all possible chests).
This actual cheater calling Dream out actually makes Dream only more believable as cheaters often want to discredit legitimate runners.
@@gabrielallen6827 The reason why it cannot be completely proven is because all evidence is empirical. It is legitimately impossible to say whether Dream cheated without a shadow of doubt just off of the footage from the runs when it comes to events that are purely probabilistic(drops from blazes).
So yeah, they can't "prove it" because it cannot be proven with the data that the verifiers have. However, you can be pretty goddamn sure that it was cheated when the odds are as bad as Dream's were. Also, the 1 in 1 quintillion had to do with the raw empirical data, which is derivable using simply binomial theorems. The verifiers did a solid and brought that number down to a 1 in 7 trillion iirc using more advanced statistical methods.
Anyway, it doesn't matter because Dream has already confessed to it.
@@gabrielallen6827 Dream legit admitted to cheating how tf is that "not proven"??? It's fully proven and the odds are so high no one could possibly be that lucky! Besides they aren't just odds for one run...but many IN A ROW, that's just not possible; you're more likely to win the lottery 10+ times than get runs like dreams, and you say that's possible? Absolutely bonkers. Whether or not you feel it's enough proof dream admitted so yes dream was in fact proven to of cheated BY HIMSELF at the very least.
The absolute brazenness of having a group of data miners seemingly discover that the dragon AI you had in your game maybe was impossible, and then deciding not to do it again
They literally just brute-forced him LMAO
Imagine if someone asks "How'd you lose your career?" And the answer is "Bruteforce" 💀
I feel like the the community was so lucky that they were able to brute-force it. 2^48 is just barely within the range of calculation. If the exponent were slightly bigger, like if it was doubled to 2^96, it would've been impossible.
@@MrSamwise25 brother, 2^48 is 281,474,976,710,656, even if a computer were to generate a thousand chests every second, that would still take 8,925 years
The fact that they managed to Bruteforce it is not luck, is a literal achievement of math and programming.
@@MrSamwise25 "slightly bigger"
@@MrSamwise25 2^96 is not "slightly" bigger than 2^48 lol, it's literally 2^48 squared
I just feel bad for his brother. The dude seems actually passionate about Speedrunning and here he is, always falling JUST behind his brother (who he had done Co-op speedruns with) no matter how hard he tries yet never giving up regardless only to find out his brother had been cheating the entire time
If this were an anime the reveal would be that it was all an elaborate plan to train NiceTwice to be an unstoppable speedrunning god
@@orangenostril So, basically, MinecrAvenger is Itachi and NiceTwice is Sasuke-kun. Nice plot twist
Lol, that's exactly what happened to James Clewett. He and his friend had a tetris machine as kids, but the friend had managed to hack the leaderboards. James kept grinding the game until he could beat the fake scores, which led him to become tetris world champion :3
It was his evil twin all along! LOL
Yeah but on the other hand, having an evil twin is pretty cool
I have so much respect for the guy that had to run all those chest simulations...how would you even do that???
According to GeoSquare they used multiple GPUs to look through 100 billion chests per second so it took like an hour to do everything because computers are ridiculously powerful nowadays.
The design of the dragon's paths and the way the cheater exploited it are both equally amazing
The fact the one guy went through all the possible natural chest combinations is god tier research.
He didn’t go through them one by one
He probably simulated all the chest patterns and then put in mincrvengers chest pattern to see if it was there and it didn’t register, doubt he actually looked through them all
Fun fact: if he were to check 3 different patterns per second, it would take him over 2 million years to view them all.
@@orangebeagle3068 He probably has some sort of nasa pc
@@MS-qc5ed could just be a normal high end pc and taken a week or two
The cheater noticed dream's situation and most likely used it to shift the attention further away from themselves.
He fucking called out the other suspicious person while being the wolf/mafia/imposter. He CAN'T be a cheater, he called out dream! Projection a bit much?
It's more like this: he knew that there was no way for moderators to check if ender pearl spawn rate was tampered with, because he had already thought about how to cheat. So he's primed to notice this.
It takes one to know one, lol
He really took that sentence to a new level
And he knew Dream was cheating because he was using similar methods himself.
Dream was the kettle, and MinecrAvenger was the pot
I love these speedrun stories because of the tenacity on the part of so many people to catch the cheater. When someone cheats, it usually means other people spending massive amounts of time & effort attempting to recreate the scenario, and that pisses a lot of people off so they become absolutely intent on proving the cheat. It makes for a riveting drama and battle of wills.
I love your reveal of the cheater. Like a soap opera revealing it was the evil twin all along, lol.
I legitimately love the lengths humans go for *hobbies* like this. Somebody, for *fun,* generated over a billion different chests, just to check if this one guy was cheating at funny block game. I love people so much.
Hey there's real fame and money in it if people are watching!
For the speedrunners I mean. But that does make everyone else around them want to take it more seriously, too.
probably not fun lol probably immense gamer rage and a burning desire to expose him. much sweat was probably involved.
@@ZeroKitsune It depends, I know a few people who do coding projects like that as a kind of work opportunity - not just for the fun or challenge. You never know when someone might get in touch over something you did in your free time, especially if there's a chance it gets notoriety from streamers and the like
@@NeverMakingVideos Yes, programmer cred is very useful.
It's interesting that you sound as if you're an alien or an AI being amused at them funny meatsacks
Comparing possible chest combinations is so genius, major props to that person
It's a great tool for the community as well. I'm just scurrilous how they tested all those possible combination.
@@jmd1743 Prolly ran the generation code through a program, then told the program to cross-check it with the hacked chest. Pretty simple on paper but it's a TON of processing power and probably took days
@@galaxythebat I should have known.
well, that gives me an Idea, what if a girl that got pregnant and doesn't know who is the dad go out f*cking with every possible man until she find out who is the dad. Genious
@@galaxythebat Atleast its only a one time processing effort (provided the result was stored appropriately)
Whoever decided to start playing Doopliss’ theme when Smant reveals that the cheater was a literal evil doppelganger gets an A+ in editing.
Props to the protagonist that looked through 49 trillion something types of chest to call this guy out
Absolute *CHAD*
this is really well-made! just one thing I wanted to point out: village chest loot is randomly generated and not seed-dependent in 1.14-1.15 specifically, in other versions the loot is dependent on the seed (so in other versions, a specific chest in a seed will have the same loot every time). this is why the 1.13-1.15 set seed glitchless category is so hated by many runners, because you've to reset for loot rng in addition to all the other rng factors like perch
The goat ataraxia 🐐
@@higgex8178 🐐
Came here to being that up too, but I didn't realize there were versions where the loot _wasn't_ seed-dependent. So I guess TIL either way.
The goat ataraxia 🐐
It's hilarious how getting 5% luckier than expected for a few runs is normal, but if someone keeps that 5% extra luck for 100 runs they are suddenlly in a 1 in 99 trillion situation. This shit escalates so quickly.
It's basically like betting on the lottery and getting atleast 1 or 2 numbers but then doing that consistently over hundreds of attempts.
youtube commentator discovers statistics
Welcome to statistics
intuitively, it totally makes sense. if you have a minute or two, you can understand it quickly if you imagine it like so:
if while playing you achieve something that has 5% chance to happen , then you're now in the "reality where you know that this 5% event occurred in the game".
now, after that insane achievement, you continue playing . after a few minutes, you achieve another insanely lucky event that has 5% chance to happen in general , and this event is entirely independent of the first one. this makes it that, intuitively, you've achieved a 5% success chance event inside the "current world", the one in which you KNOW that the 5% first event occurred, so you actually need 5% INSIDE the world that ALREADY NEEDS 5% to happen, so its 5% of 5%, making it 0.0025, or: 1 in 400 attempts.
so it basically escalates so quickly because, as explained above, you intuitively (and mathematically) end up needing to MULTIPLY the odds, which are fractions. do that for a 5% event that happens 100 times in a row and you get 5% to the power of 100 which is a really really, small number, so yeah.
its important to note that the 2 events need to be independent of each other for this to work. if they're dependent somehow (if one happens then the odds of the other one happening gets higher/lower) then this explanation remains the same except for the part where you multiply 5% by 5%, you'll multiply 5% by something else, depending on how the relationship between the two events is.
note to the mathematicians: this is actually the multiplication rule in probability, explained intuitively, yet on independent events, so it ends up as the normal independence definition formula.
How is this even considered speedruning if new records are 100% dependent better rng than record holder lol.
10:16 i love how the Ace Attorney “Telling The Truth” theme (which plays when discovering the murderer in Ace Attorney) played when they caught the cheater
Incidents like these honestly tear my heart up for _legitimate_ runners trying their hardest only, to be denied the bounty of their hard work by a _cheater._ People that would have moved up on the leader board with legitimate runs were instead held back by one egotistical fraud. At least he was finally caught, exposed, and stripped of his glory.
MinecrAvenger exposing Dream is a classic example of a phenomenon I don’t know the name of (or even if it has a name), but I like to call it “guilty vigilance”. He knew Dream was cheating because he knew exactly what to look for in guilty behavior. He also had a stake in exposing him because if he exposed Dream, it would be some illogical hypocrisy if he cheated as well. Thus, if he exposes him, it appears that he is blameless.
Dream may not even have been cheating intentionally, is the thing. Apparently his evidence of how he came to be using an illegal mod without knowing it at the time is reasonably persuasive to many. Me, I don't know. But it's a possibility. The rest is certainly true.
@@BlueCyann even if that were true, he would have easily noticed early on that there could have been a mistake. But instead he tried to cover it up with his bad faith "study" that he commissioned instead of just apologizing.
@@NihongoWakannai Oh absolutely. Assuming his ultimate self-defense is more or less true, he still handled it terribly. Refusing for even one second to entertain the possibility that that the mods could have it right -- despite that he himself had commissioned work to do exactly what he was he was being accused of, for use in other contexts -- and continuing to slander them for literal months. None of the potential explanations are good.
I believe "projection" is the term
It already has a name, it's called "whoever smelt it dealt it"
The exposing dream bit and being a cheater himself really makes "takes one know one" hit hard.
Just in the same way Dream originally exposed Drem. It’s like an Irony chain, what are the odds?
Y'all should read up on the Dream situation. He didn't knowingly cheat.
@@reanaa I've been saying that before the truth was even outed. He shared his minecraft folder with the speedrunning mods. It was clear he thought he was clean! And so did the mods, initially.
@@reanaa Yup. Saw the Karl Jobst video and also the interview that DarkViperAU did with him. It's undoubted that it was all accidental. Matt (DarkViperAU) himself told such mistakes can happen a lot if runners are careless enough, since he himself has done a few times. Not to mention that Matt is a Mod for GTAV as well
@@reanaa Doesn't make up for the fact that Dream initially denied the accusations and acted like a baby when presented with the data.
holy shit an evil twin, honestly did not see that coming
This story feels like a legitimate novel, man, the plot points are legitimately insane.
🤓
These cheating scandals are more exciting than the actual speedrunners. The math that they always do to catch these guys is just way cool
Totally agree!
I just think that the guy was like "Even if those chest patterns can't occur in a vanilla game, nobody will bother to check all 281 trillion patterns to see if mine is legit!"
... and then someone did.
Math? Being cool? That's the first time I've heard that
i remember playing 2b2t when people figured out you can get base coordinates by basically analysing natural terrain in screenshots
@@cantido56 I have only a vague idea of what that means but that's really cool you were in 2b2t during a revolutionary time. It's turned into its own type of meta game. That's cool onto it's self but for something like speed running when people need to trust eachother it's sad to see that it really is more like the 2b2t server in reality where people will do it if they can lol.
Agree. I have studied math at university level, and I find these scandals awesome because its the same things we gave studied in our courses. I can understand what they did but I am not genius enough myself to replicate their reasoning and apply it to to the game. For a long time I thought it was useless in real life but now I am so relieved to finally have a practical use for the things I have learned :P
The fact MinecrAvenger seemingly went out of his way to cheat into a position of beating his brother by like, seconds at most is probably one of the most pathetic displays I've ever seen in my, admittedly somewhat limited, exposure to speedrunning. Like, that shit's pettiness and jealousy only heard of in myths and legends.
For real
Like
He could have easily let his brother win a few
But no, had to dunk on him at every turn
My little sisters tick me off sometimes
But id never do something like that
Especially Over how passionate his brother is
It’s down right cruel
Nah that's like, normal sibling behavior
Not pathetic just normal siblings interaction
@@Blade.5786 not if you’re the decently mature one
@@ToxicNoxic
: having a capacity to move one to either compassionate or contemptuous pity
: marked by sorrow or melancholy : sad
: pitifully inferior or inadequate
the restaurant's pathetic service
: absurd, laughable
a pathetic costume
I have been moved to contemptuous pity, seeing someone cheat every single run against his brother who ***works*** in the same industry as him.
I feel sorrow and melancholy for what could have been if he hadn't decided to ruin his reputation as a legit runner and also mar his brothers reputation
It is shows his pitiful inferiority between him and his brother to TAS to beat your own brothers records, live.
And finally it is laughably absurd to put so much time into cheating when you yourself revealed the cheating of another youtuber(dream)
P A T H E T I C.
The sheer determination it must've taken to prove this makes me respect this community a bit more
Only recently discovered your channel... I love the content (especially how well it's produced and narrated)... wish you created more.
What's scary is how he could have got away with a few world records if he just hadn't gone for them all. It makes you wonder how many people on the leaderboards _have_ cheated to get their place
I've maintained for a while that there are bound to be dozens of very well hidden cheated runs in the top 100. As a programmer, it'd take me a couple of days, maybe weeks if I was careful, to make a hacked client that does some subtle thing to make a WR very likely. E.g., on the 14th run on April 27th, 2023, inject a "random" seed which is actually an FSG seed, unseen by the runner, with everything necessary to get a WR, and a few RNG tweaks. Of course since I'm not a speedrunner the lack of skill would make it obvious, but there's bound to be plenty of fairly skilled speedrunners who know how to write some Java and don't mind breaking the rules. The most advanced cheaters we've caught don't show how advanced the cheaters are, they show the limis of our means to detect them.
@@RyanTosh For sure. Showing off an impossibly fast dragon perch? Editing the recording to splice your world selection, but neglecting the cursor position jump and time change? That's careless.
The obsidian odds COULD be more understandable. The 1 in 28,000,000,000 luck sounds crazy, but if the changes were pretty subtle over a long period of time, the statistics would add up.
Except... you can see at 9:00 the stream is barely over an hour long. And people are commenting on his crazy luck. And the stream is titled "I will get wr today"
Bruh
@@tomc.5704 "I will win the lottery today"
• Never done lottery
• Literally bought 10 tickets
• What the fuck
@@RyanTosh that, or you save yourself a lot of tears and just practice speedrunning a certain seed that has good rng elements, and record your best run and then splice the video into a random livestream without making the blunder this guy made. all youd have to do to avoid making any blunders would be to perhaps have your screen go black half way through the stream and say its a recording glitch or smth (be sure to establish the fact that youve had this issue during previous streams) and then you can simply play the pre-recorded video of your run after that. also make sure you do several pre-recorded bad runs after the "technical difficulty" before you get the WR run to avoid suspicion, and splice the pre-recorded bad runs with the WR one using proper editing tools, making sure there are no obvious jumpcuts. make sure you can do a live voice over whilst the video is playing and respond to a couple of chat messages here and there during the run. then once the pre-recorded WR run is done, cut to a live reaction, and whilst you camera is on you, exit the video and stream live video again. and boom, youve gotten away with getting the #1 mc world record without even needing much skill.
Yeah, I’m still surprised what lengths some people could have gone to for marginal clout. I help maintain a list of records for hardest maps completed in another game, and we recently exposed a guy with a really elaborate scheme to cheat. Which he used on the easiest map on the list. Due to be knocked off in 3 days. The funniest part is that he never uploaded anything else, that one map was his only submission for months, which is why we took so long to find him ;-;
I can't even imagine what NiceTwice thought about his own twin brother being at the center of such a massive cheating scandal.
Probably was worried it would make people think twice about his own legitimacy.
Discovering your brother has been petty enough to one up with cheats your hundred of hours of effort for 2 years, can't be just ignored. Doubting they still play minecraft together very often
he should change his name to Nice Once, becouse the other version of him is not nice
go outside
@@dinogt8477 ur mom
"The Biggest Cheater in Speedrunning History"
Billy Michel: Hold my beer
the speed running community never ceases to amaze me. like they even do investigations better than most government out there.
and to think that for the most part there's no money involved in this. man. I just have the utmost respect.
Gotta say, it takes some grit to try and cheat in a hobby that tends to be observed under a magnifying lens for verification and testing
It typically isn't. These arent done by the actual verification team the first time until someone else decides to dive deeper in a Speedrun they deem suspicious
and with all the evidence permanently uploaded to the internet for literally anyone in the world to analyze
it's only scrutinized when there is sufficient evidence and motivation to investigate it. and these high profile revelations only happen because it's a popular game with some very dedicated nerds in a group chat who get personal satisfaction out of flexing their math and computer science skills to out somebody.
until then, it's just an unpaid, thankless hobby to watch hundreds of hours of speedruns and have the relevant game experience to say "yeah this is probably fine". the leaderboards are probably chock full of cheaters who go completely unrecognized, particularly for the less popular games or non-WR submissions.
he went 2 years without notice
It's not grit, it's the same reason (a lot of) cereal eaters eat... Just to see if they can get away with it and getting off knowing they're "smarter" than those who make it their mission to catch them.
Makes you wonder how many more cheaters are still on the leaderboards.
Mhm. There is me, and probsbly some other people
@@Kitteso To be fair, I think they're probably getting better. They definitely have more tools than they used to.
@@BlueCyann Also, videos like this have significantly changed the atmosphere around cheating in speedruns.
It honestly often wasn't treated as a serious issue before, and there were lots of "gentlemans agreements" that "hey, this guy cheated, but he's *one of us* and we like him, so we'll let it slide". Now, youtubers make videos that get very popular harvesting the drama around cheating, making the wider community take more notice. This has sort of forced the community to begin taking cheating more seriously.
@@CuriousKey i have never heard of a single example of such cheating being ok
@@SirTylerGolf Have a look at the history of Goldeneye speedruns for some examples - plenty of people caught cheating who weren't banned from TheElite in the early days iirc. That's the kind of community it generally happened in - small, relatively isolated communities. The massive growth in size and popularity has caused a shift against the acceptability of cheating, and an increase in verification (both existing at all and in the standards used - many early records were trusted literally on faith).
Nice video! I would have appreciated a little more detail on the chest generation patterns, how they’re generated and why the only way to check possibility is to generate all of them manually.
It’s not the only way to check possibility. You can use LattiCG to do it. But generating all of them is easier and is more compelling to general public.
@@Floof2 what? link?
One of the top Minecraft speedrunners having an actual evil twin brother is such a good twist I'm amazed you didn't save it for the end of the video.
To think someone could beat Dream in his own game like that
Prime example of "takes one to know one"
I think there's credibility to the theory that dream didn't cheat knowingly - take a look at the last video Karl Jobst did on the dream cheating-thing.
@@FearoftheDomoKun it's possible that he didn't knowingly cheat at the original time of submission. However, after being requested for additional information, e.g. the mods folder, Dream refused to comply with the numerous requests. It seems likely he found out about the accidental cheating, and tried to keep it covered up. Which is in itself cheating.
@@hextree Yes, he definitely handled the situation very poorly. Just thought it's good to add some nuance, in my book what dream did is not the same as what MinecrAvenger did.
@@FearoftheDomoKun Dream's reaction to everything was extremely fishy and a huge dickhead move.
Lying on multiple occasion, making shit up, making videos trying to BS everyone.
And then this "apology" video. He knew very well he was cheating and with how he responded to everything, he's a human piece of shit.
Nothing to say more.
Cheating a world record by just getting luckier or removing human errors is one thing. But I feel for all the people who were trying to beat a literally physically impossible world record because his dragon perch was hacked to be too good. Nice work catching him.
Luck is time, and time is performance in speedruns. Don't underestimate the value of good RNG in an RNG based speedrun.
@@shadowyzephyr Oh, absolutely, and no one should do either kind of cheat. But at least luck is something a fair runner can match, just less of the time. (The 1/1bil type odds that luck cheaters get is measured over the course of a stream, not in a single run)
Make more stepcharts
@@LolWutMikehSM I made a bunch but they're tied up in packs that aren't coming out lmaooo
(or maybe they will but taking forever)
@@shadowyzephyr Luck isn't time, an 1/100 chance can happen on your first try.
You have more chances to see more results with more time. Nothing holds either side as a fact that will happen.
i'm glad this channel is still kicking, hope to see more from you guys!
@@Floof2 This is literally Smallant, not "copied". He is part of the channel with other people like Cjya and many others.
@@LokiLiesGod yeah Ik someone else told me and I’ve been tryna hunt these down and delete these comments. Thx for finding one
I give props to those who are so dedicated to not have cheaters in their community that they go above and beyond to find the truth.
and here I thought evil twin stories were going out of style. Holy shit what a rollercoaster
Reminds me of another MK64 vid with the pair of three that played under one name
Wow. As an admittedly mediocre SSG runner in the past, I used to look up to MinecrAvenger. I remember all of those specific seeds and WRs you mentioned in the video, and remember us just thinking "man, even if I get a lucky dolphin, I still need to get that God perch..." But of course, it never happened, and now we know why. Crazy to look back, but we couldn't have known.
im glad you guys are posting again. great video!
Happy to see a new video from you! I learn so much from watching this channel.
I have no idea what their relationship was like before this, but I can't imagine how it feels finding out your brother not only has been cheating all this time, but was cheating his records to be just above your own.
I bet the brother got kicked out.
I love that Dream exposed Drem, then Dream was exposed by MinecrAvenger, who was then exposed for cheating. Keep an eye on whoever called out MincrAvenger.
...And now *you're* trying to expose *them.* Very suspicious. Do you happen to have any... world record speedruns?
Wait... dammit, now *I'm* exposing *you!* So now *I'm* also going to be exposed for cheating at speedrunning!
@@CheshireCad What you are you trying to say *Cheater* ? Wait dammit
@@Tacom01 you DARE EXPOSE SOMEONE? ... wait a minute
I don’t even care about speed running and I found this fascinating. The story was so well told. Great job.
these MC speedrun investigators seriously need to consider getting a job with the FBI or something.
Huge respect to the speedrun community for going through ~250trillion chests just to confirm their slim suspicion….that’s a great deal of dedication
They wrote a program to find the cheater's exact chest out of the possible chests. The program could not find it. Saying this because you seem like you think they checked the chests by hand.
These are the same people who practice the same minutes hand gestures to fling themselves through the stratosphere and into the last bosses butthole. These aren't men, they're living avatars of ocd and vengeance.
nah man there was one dude loading up a seed, running up to a chest, writing it down on a piece of paper and then loading a new seed.
you cant program a computer to do all that.
@@mrnoneofurbusiness7942 True true i could not think of that
i would give credit to the mathematicians who spend their lives making computers and code so that idiots like us can play and overanalyse bloc gem
The Minecraft Speedrunning community is so wild. People come up with the most convoluted ways to cheat that require community members to write programs that run thousands of simulations to prove that they were cheating. I've never seen anything like it in any other speedrunning communities.
or they visibly splice their video or get a phenomenon twice that none of the millions of minecraft runs have ever had happen in them.
@@DerToasti I know nothing about minecraft, but was there even a benefit for him to get the records other than pride? Like there's no cash prizes or anything right?
This is one of the reasons why I'm not a huge fan of RNG-based speedruns. In deterministic games like Mario, Portal or Mirror's Edge speedrunning comes down to having an optimal route, and the skills to execute it. Usually it's also pretty simple to detect cheaters, because you know what to expect from a run and any anomalies are apparent.
In RNG-based games:
1. To get a good time you need to get very lucky, or instead be very good and have tons of patience to grind 100s if not 1000s of runs - this also encourages people to cheat, because you know that you're definitely the best runner, you just aren't getting the luck you needed to get the top time
2. Cheating is harder to detect, because depending on the game you can often do modifications that will be indistinguishable from being very lucky - sometimes a deep dive (like simulating all the chest combinations mentioned in this video) is the only thing that can bust a cheater, sometimes it's literally impossible unless the cheater admits his guilt
And then even if we take cheating out of equation, I feel like leaderboards make sense when they rank people by skill, not skill and luck combined. It's possible that for every RNG-based game there's a best speedrunner who has never held the WR because of bad luck.
@@johnr797 people know who you are -> clout -> more subs, more subs = money. that's basically it there's a lot of people who blew up because they speedrun something
@@MaskedDeath_ > In deterministic games ... speedrunning comes down to having an optimal route, and the skills to execute it.
You're just following someone else's route and mechanically pressing predetermined buttons at some predetermined interval. You try over and over again doing the same exact thing to get the timing right. A machine could do it with ease.
"RNG" speedruns are the only interesting ones because they allow for creative expression.
The determination of these researchers is insane.
It would be crazy if a set seed runner was doing random seed and ended up getting the set seed he runs on all the time
I would actually be interested to learn how the community verifies and investigates runs, similar to your video “Who finds the Glitches used in Speedruns?”, and I feel it would be an excellent fit for this channel!
They can't show how runs are verified because then people could reverse engineer it to cheat and not get caught
Watch summoning salt and Karl jobst. They breakdown how cheaters are caught.
Matthew Bolan and other people on the mod team looked into this one. Bolan was the one who find the diamonds and clay trick!
@@tkienjoyer there are no secret techniques for verifying runs.
People just try to recreate the glitches themselves, search the video for splices, datamine the game, etc.
@@tkienjoyer This.
There's a top runner I watch who was added to the mod team a few months ago and I love how the way he talks about cheating did a 180 from before to after. From "it's so frustrating, it's so easy to cheat, anything can get through to "nah, nobody can cheat without getting caught. Won't happen." Neither is really true. But the perception that there is a chance of being caught is important, as well as concealing the exact details as much as is practical. (Source: many years ago in another life I was moderator of a Civilization competition. At one point we introduced a new cheating detection method, didn't publicize that we had it, and promptly caught a distressing number of top performers cheating. I can only imagine how many there would have been if we had let them all know how easy the previous system was to hack, instead of them finding out by taking the risk of doing it and only figuring out after that it went undetected.)
Obviously when someone as big as this is caught, some of the details have to come out in order to be persuasive that the steps then taken are necessary. For smaller fish it's not necessary though. When DreamingArturz was caught (probably) cheating a 1.16 RSG Any Percent world record, the details released were pretty scant.
That is so embarrassing to be caught in almost the exact same way you exposed someone else for. I feel bad for his twin brother for being caught up in all this
Can we appreciate how well-made this video is? Man made a fake NYT article and showed it for a good 2s lol
1:54 Lmfao Doopliss's theme playing as the twin brother is revealed is perfection.
I like Mythrodak more
(Start a WW3)
Was not expecting an "evil twin" to be the culprit lol
Now I feel bad for the sibling that didn’t cheat. Knowing that no matter what you do, no matter what you try. Your brother is always slightly better can bring massive guilt and depression for many. And to find out he cheated all of it in the end. That. Is something awful.
If someone is getting depressed over Minecraft that seems more like a personal issue
@@jebalitabb8228 if you phrase it like that, sure... but it's not that. You do get depressed about falling short in things you are passionate about and that you take pride in. It's about passion and achievement, not simply about having fun in a video game. And especially being betrayed by your brother like this is terrible.
@@holysecret2 that’s just not how a healthy person behaves, maybe it’s normal for America but nowhere else
@@jebalitabb8228 jealousy is a normal emotion universally, its just more prevalent in first world countries cause they have less to worry abt
@@jebalitabb8228 I mean belittling people's personal problems aside, why did you feel the need to drag "America" into this as though only Americans ever get upset about anything silly? What is wrong with you?
i love how people spent so much of their time to bring this man down. i love it
I love how when you introduce the twin brother, you play the Dopliss theme from paper mario. Perfect execution.
dream exposed drem for cheating
mincravenger exposed dream for cheating
idk who exposed him for cheating, but the cycles continues
One day drem will expose someone for cheating and the cycle will be complete.
It takes one to know one
the person spearheading the investigation after all this time currently has a top5 time in 1.16 rsg any%
we need to go deeper
Obviously it's dreaam and then dreaaam
Considering that this guy was the one who exposed Dream for cheating and Dream (I think) was the one who exposed Drem for cheating, I guess the moral of the story is: You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
Except this guy was the villain long before dreams speedrunning. Honestly im at the point I don't even care. If they got caught cheating. Take em off the leaderboard. Ban em from submitting runs if its serious enough to warrant it. And move on.
More like "No honor among thieves"
@@LuxinNocte Or 'It takes one to know one"
@@biodtox Absolutely. Cheaters have to spend time thinking about how to cheat and what it will look like.
And there's also a psychological aspect to it. Like in this case - when the perch couldn't be replicated, the other runners decided that they just didn't understand the mechanics. But someone who cheats is less likely to give the benefit of the doubt.
You project your own worldview onto the other person.
@@tomc.5704 additionally, it gets rid of the competition. if your cheating as much as he was, then the only way someone could realistically beat your time in your best categories is if they also cheated. good to take out your fellow cheats before it looks like you're just being a sore loser.
"Speed run investigators here, mind answering a few questions?"
“Get minecravengers endgame” astonishing. Absolutely beautiful.
The fact that the guy managed to mess up by having one of the few non-existent chest patterns in all existence is unbelievably lucky
What?
@@MrLoowiz 280 trillion chest combination. Not even a single identical chest combination as the cheating run.
Unbelievably lucky is an understatement.
@@wrongwronskian7707 Not really. With the amount of items and spaces available, the amount of possible combinations is much more than 280 trillion times that 280 trillion combinations generated. He would be extremely lucky to get a combination identical to one of the possible combinations, that's for sure.
@@MrLoowiz It's beautiful and scary.
I love it
This is incomprehensible
Brute force generating 300 trillion chest combinations to know if there's was possible... Minecraft detectives are something else
Some of these methods used to find cheaters are straight anime plots I swear
I’m not involved in any speedrunning communities, but I find this stuff so interesting to watch. Also, I LOVE the use of ace attorney music at the climax of the investigation 😂
This is the first video I've seen on this channel, and I was caught off guard by Smallant being the narrator!
as a NiceTwice watcher genuinely i had a heartattack when i saw the picture of him poping up before you said his name i really thought you mistook him for minecravenger. never got so scared in my life for a split second
Poor guy :D
FeelsOkayMan
The one time when “It wasn’t me! It was my twin brother!” Is an actual valid excuse. 😂
Damn it makes me sad hearing this. I remember when he got is 2:56 SSG run. Feels like ages ago. Knowing that everything was just a lie is so sad.
So Dream exposed Drem, this guy exposed Dream, who exposed him? I think they need an investigation
It's so refreshing to see people taking down the cheaters. I might be new in the soeedrunning community but I'm glad to see this is happening
3:32 Simply is such a great speedrunner that is playing hands free. What a stemheading legend
STEMHEADING HYPERCLAP
Kudos to the Mod teams for having amazing tools to stop cheaters
10:11 huh… whoever did that crazy ong
That's crazy, I love the way they found out he cheated with all the chest patterns
De todos los que podrían haber comentado vas tú, increíble
At least sounds easier than finding out a seed from a low resolution image.
maybe if the moderators of SRC actually watched the runs they verify, they could have spotted it sooner.
Glad to see this channel is still alive. Can you make a playlist for comfortable watching through your previous vids?
TH-cam autogenerates a "videos uploaded by this channel" playlist if you press the play button next to the uploads section on the channel front page (on desktop at least)
Sadly it's organized with the newest videos first, but since Lowest Percent videos are pretty much standalone videos the order you go through them doesn't matter that much :)
@@llunaecy I can't stand how TH-cam got rid of the "sort by oldest" thing gotta be the shittiest decision on here and I see nobody talking about it
@@hylianro more horrified I didn't notice until now... Still second to the dislike button tho.
I know nothing about minrcraft but dam yall got a huge community. Went above and beyond to catch him. Very interesting. Kudos 👏
Smallant is really good at narrating
I love all the work that goes into determining if someone cheated. Generating all those chests just to see that they are impossible
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Minecraft ended up looking like the Tour de France
The effort people put in to find out that someone is cheating is just. Impressive
Crazy how despite all his runs, he's literally only going to be known as 'that minecraft cheater' from now on.
Took a break from watching TH-cam for a few months, and was sad to see this channel hadn't uploaded in quite a while when I came back a few weeks ago. So glad to see it isn't dead. Keep up the great work!
9:11 I did not expect to see myself here lmao. I remember that steam vividly, it was just enter after enter. I stopped counting after 5 or so because they came so often. We were even discussing during the stream how there was no other explanation except hardware. Unfortunately, I'm not really surprised by this news, but it is still sad to see old SSG player I looked up to be exposed for cheating, it doesn't set a good precedent in the community.
Gotta hand it to him, he cheated in a very clever way and he was just 1 man, it took 2 years and a lot of people to figure it out and props to them too
Is that soul sanctum music at 3:56
dang you used hornet & dirtmouth at 6:58 too. You are really a man of culture.
I find it hilarious that this is some sort of hero vs evil twin story
2:06 “Some cleverness”
*b a l l s*
I like to imagine people seeing the speedrun community investigating or wondering how somebody did something as super formal when it is just "WHAT DID I JUST WATCH"
I'm actually impressed that they have speedrun research team lol