I built these New for GE Transportation in Erie Pa over 30 years. Seen much in change, including selling to Wabtec. Truth is, RR's are exploiting the new emissions requirements by 'rebuilding' old locomotives. I have video inside Eries plant if interested....
Show it, so people can see what a proper erecting shop layout is like. Side by side. So one batch doesn't block access to another, if parts and subassemblies are delayed.
I love the rebuilt AC44C6Ms, but eventually we knew that new units would be ordered again and that is really Wabtec’s main reason for being. BNSF and CN have once again been getting new units in 2023 and CPKC is next! I can’t wait to see them and what they will look like!
Really hard to get good numbers on absolute peak, average peak based on season and region. Even worse is how many homes in a block; numbers from 10 - 600. [ 7.2MW per train, I know of a small full service hospital that had 2MW emergency power. 30KW peak per house gives 240 homes. ] 30KW is like absolute peak - huge AC, Water Heater, Clothes Dryer, Cooking Stove, Hair Dryer and some other junk running.
Nobody wants to deal with the maintenance of tier 4 emission systems. Major headache to deal with. Not to mention the government fluid that is required for those engines. Much easier to rebuild the old stuff than deal with the new stuff.
Locomotives having to use DEF would be a disaster to the food supply. Trucks already are. In the lockdown UP embargoed CF Industries, a major ammonia producer. That caused a squeeze on both fertilizer and DEF, which led to further transportation and agriculture issues. DEF is an unnecessary vulnerability in the economy much like ethanol. Why do we keep using food for the wrong things?
Battery-Electric locomotives are one of the dumbest ideas ever. All-electric locomotives have been around since the 1930s or earlier. They use power lines and pantographs instead of batteries, and although power lines are expensive, batteries are more expensive. They'll have to be replaced every 5-10 years (easily half the cost of the locomotive) and lithium ion batteries are not at all environmentally friendly, despite what EV companies might tell you. Oh, and the cobalt in L-ION batteries is almost always obtained via child labor.
@@placeholdername0000not addressing any of the other points I made. I am aware that cobalt isn't a strict requirement but most L-ion batteries have it.
The charging systems are not near enough to replace anything. When a battery system can be recharged as quickly as filling tanks with diesel, then we can be impressed. Until then, we are dependent on oil.
we need over head wire power locomotives again in the usa there where tons of railroads using electric locomotives in the 40s but around the 60s and 70s they went full diesel sadly
@@Zdogcat How do you think we are going to power those locomotives? Coal? Basically there is no way to power anything eletrically without creating emissions of some sort, with the execption of solar but you are talking massive solar farms to power just one section of rail. Never mind the emissions to build, install, and maintain those items. If we still built nuclear plants, sure it would be a viable option, however the only way we produce eletric is coal, gas, water, solar, and wind, all of which are not mature enough to over come coal to even replace 50% of the actual load of the grid. These are great ideas once we aren't burning coal to power eletric cars, trains, etc, but until then, its absolutly useless as all it is doing is "transplanting emissions" to a place you cannot see it. (will add nuclear is about the best option as it does not take up massive amounts of land, very safe, and little to no emissions, espeically if they contiune with the work on disposal of the waste via bacteria, or at the very least finding a storage means under ground that are 0 maintenace so that in the event (always does) that maintenace is not funded, or provided 50 years in the future, the ground water is not at risk and the waste cannot phycially go critical by over heating)
@@zimbabwesteve4620 Nope. There is not a power generating station every few miles. Now, electric trains (which get electricity from catenary) use traction substations.
Battery technology still has a long way to go before it can pull a train from point a to point b without stopping and recharging! Today’s locomotives can start out with a full tank of fuel and goes several days before refueling!
These rebuild programs are as much about avoiding problematic Tier 4 emissions standards for new locomotives as they are about saving capital. There is a reasonable “middle ground” approach to battery electric locomotive tech. No, they may not ever completely replace diesel freight locomotives. However with improved energy density from graphene batteries, they could at some point greatly increase efficiency by harnessing wasted energy from braking and allow fewer diesels to move the same tonnage. It’s not any different than how a Prius works. People need to be more open minded and realistic about the problems and potential benefits of battery tech.
You had me until you started talking about "Zero Emission Battery Powered Locomotives." The juice to charge that thing has to come from somewhere outside of the unit. It seems odd to think that two or four of these things will probably end up pulling coal trains, coal to run some of the electrical plants needed to keep the electricity on.
I want to give some perspective regarding battery electric locomotives. A modern train doesn't have just a locomotive in it, but various machines. The electric locomotive is intended to be used in a hybrid consist where its main purpose will be to recharge itself using the dynamic brake.
I mean neat but railroads will do seemingly anything but electrify their tracks to an actually modern standard. Overhead power was the future in the 30s and continues to be the most efficient way of electrifying the trains
They basically just use them to start the train & going uphill. They don't use them for 100% of the trip unless it's a short distance. Most if the time it's off. Just dead weight.
Well, the advantage is a much lower maintenance cost. If you use batteries that are optimized for a long cycle life you will have very few parts that wear out. On the other hand, your locomotives will be heavier. Much like you said, they will essentially have a slug/B unit permanently attached to the locomotive. However, the extra traction is just a neat bonus. For winter weather the locomotives have an advantage over electric cars, since they're huge. That makes it much easier to keep them warm, to the point where the extra grip might actually give them an advantage.
They’ve tried battery powered locomotives for years, and every single attempt fails miserably. Second only to attempts over the last 30+ years to put Caterpillar engines in locomotives. Fails every time…..and usually a catastrophic failure.
I don't know where you got that information because in real life, the Wabtec battery powered unit that was trialed on the BNSF was seen as pretty successful.
It's still difficult to imagine how the power plant on the inside of one of those things can move it at all to say nothing of pulling all the rail cars that go with it. Pretty amazing.
"Zero emissions" is a misleading claim on all electric locomotives. Somewhere electricity is being generated to recharge these locomotives and unless that electricity is wind, solar or hydroelectric, there will be emissions in the creation of that electricty.
A locomotive that can power up a neighborhood 😮🤔? Where was this guy when the electrical gid in Dallas CRASHED 😮.? With so many locomotives in storage they could of plugged a few into the grid and solved that issue 😉. But NO, let's let everybody freeze 🥶 along with their brains and don't think outside the box. Think back, with that ice 🧊 storm that hit the northeast and Canada, CP Rail took one of their engines to a ice covered crossing, turned it 90 degrees, and drove it down the road, and plugged 🔌 it into the grid. True story. WAKE UP DALLAS⏰! IT HAS BEEN DONE😮!!!
Zero emissions, except for the scores of dead battery packs that have out that have outlived their service life; zero emissions, except for those expended in mining the materials for said batteries... 🙄
@@aerospot2 Correct! The passenger railroads are mostly all government run. If the emissions equipment proves unreliable and costly to maintain, then they just raise your taxes to pay for it.
Yes, they're referring to freight railroads, since those account for well over 95% of the locomotives in the USA. Amtrak, by far the largest passenger railroad company in the US, owns about 400 locomotives, so I doubt there are more than 800 passenger locomotives in the US in total. Union Pacific, on its own, has about 8,000 freight locomotives. So, even if the only railroads in the USA were Union Pacific and passenger railroads, freight would still account for 90% of the market.
The Ultimate Subdivision Over Cajon, Now Available On DVD From Pentrex. CSX BNSF KCS NS CN CP UP GTW SOO line FEC Ferromex TFM NDeM DM&IR NPR D&RG Milwaukee Rd. and BC Rail.
The FLXDrive is a glorified time-shifting slug unit for cheaply built, slow and steady mineral railroads like the B&LE that have a roller coaster profile, and have to use more units because of isolated grades. And a publicity show horse of course.
Dude we can't even get electric cars, let alone electric semi trucks to be reliable or efficient. We have no business looking to mass movers like rail, sea or air to go EV especially in a commercial/industrial/long-haul capacity until we can get the smaller units squared away. Every other evolution in propulsion has started small and expanded to larger power plants, this is no different. There is no sense in reinventing the wheel. One foot in front of the other. One step at a time.
Did I hear "battery locos"!! What is it with EV's?? WHERE ,oh, WHERE IS THE "E" GOING TO COME FROM?!?!? Let's get somemore of that "Jim Jones juice"!!!
I built these New for GE Transportation in Erie Pa over 30 years. Seen much in change, including selling to Wabtec. Truth is, RR's are exploiting the new emissions requirements by 'rebuilding' old locomotives. I have video inside Eries plant if interested....
Please do post them :)
that's because they want dependability. T4's have nothing but reliability issues which is costly to something so sensitive as the railroad.
That’s awesome, I’m working in building 12 in Erie right now always cool to see stories of people who work/worked here.
Show it, so people can see what a proper erecting shop layout is like. Side by side. So one batch doesn't block access to another, if parts and subassemblies are delayed.
I worked in 12. Wind, & OHV before both left. I Loved Wind & would have retired from that job if it had stayed!@@benpituch1750
I love the rebuilt AC44C6Ms, but eventually we knew that new units would be ordered again and that is really Wabtec’s main reason for being. BNSF and CN have once again been getting new units in 2023 and CPKC is next! I can’t wait to see them and what they will look like!
Just like all the other modern locos--- square, and boring.
Its a lot more than a single residential block. How does this guy know so little about electricity
Really hard to get good numbers on absolute peak, average peak based on season and region. Even worse is how many homes in a block; numbers from 10 - 600. [ 7.2MW per train, I know of a small full service hospital that had 2MW emergency power. 30KW peak per house gives 240 homes. ] 30KW is like absolute peak - huge AC, Water Heater, Clothes Dryer, Cooking Stove, Hair Dryer and some other junk running.
Nobody wants to deal with the maintenance of tier 4 emission systems. Major headache to deal with. Not to mention the government fluid that is required for those engines. Much easier to rebuild the old stuff than deal with the new stuff.
The locomotives actually don’t take DEF, even the new Tier 4 ones.
Locomotives having to use DEF would be a disaster to the food supply. Trucks already are.
In the lockdown UP embargoed CF Industries, a major ammonia producer. That caused a squeeze on both fertilizer and DEF, which led to further transportation and agriculture issues. DEF is an unnecessary vulnerability in the economy much like ethanol. Why do we keep using food for the wrong things?
Sometimes rebuilt is better than new
GE went to Fort Worth to cut labor costs, health insurance, and show off GE locomotive for sale.
Where do you want your business? In the state where you pay a worker $50.00 an hour or $25?
Great reporting.
Wow what an awesome place !
I used to test those locomotives and could see that at 1:36 the label is missing from the toilet compartment light switch.
What building did you work in??
@@aerospot2 I didn't work in Erie, there's only one big building in Fort Worth. Yeah, I'm one of those people.
Oh no!
Who stopped buying new locomotives? We have lots of sales and new orders in the factory lol
Battery-Electric locomotives are one of the dumbest ideas ever. All-electric locomotives have been around since the 1930s or earlier. They use power lines and pantographs instead of batteries, and although power lines are expensive, batteries are more expensive. They'll have to be replaced every 5-10 years (easily half the cost of the locomotive) and lithium ion batteries are not at all environmentally friendly, despite what EV companies might tell you. Oh, and the cobalt in L-ION batteries is almost always obtained via child labor.
It’s better for forests forest fires can easily be starts from cantinerys
You don't need cobalt for batteries. It depends on what battery you use.
@@placeholdername0000not addressing any of the other points I made. I am aware that cobalt isn't a strict requirement but most L-ion batteries have it.
@@Amigafur Except that LFPs don't and they are quickly becoming the dominant type in EVs and energy storage.
The charging systems are not near enough to replace anything. When a battery system can be recharged as quickly as filling tanks with diesel, then we can be impressed. Until then, we are dependent on oil.
Absolutely not, we need electrification and depend on dual mode locomotives like the Eurodual or Euro9000 from stadler or a Siemens Vectron.
we need over head wire power locomotives again in the usa there where tons of railroads using electric locomotives in the 40s but around the 60s and 70s they went full diesel sadly
@@Zdogcat How do you think we are going to power those locomotives? Coal? Basically there is no way to power anything eletrically without creating emissions of some sort, with the execption of solar but you are talking massive solar farms to power just one section of rail. Never mind the emissions to build, install, and maintain those items. If we still built nuclear plants, sure it would be a viable option, however the only way we produce eletric is coal, gas, water, solar, and wind, all of which are not mature enough to over come coal to even replace 50% of the actual load of the grid. These are great ideas once we aren't burning coal to power eletric cars, trains, etc, but until then, its absolutly useless as all it is doing is "transplanting emissions" to a place you cannot see it. (will add nuclear is about the best option as it does not take up massive amounts of land, very safe, and little to no emissions, espeically if they contiune with the work on disposal of the waste via bacteria, or at the very least finding a storage means under ground that are 0 maintenace so that in the event (always does) that maintenace is not funded, or provided 50 years in the future, the ground water is not at risk and the waste cannot phycially go critical by over heating)
@@zimbabwesteve4620 Nope. There is not a power generating station every few miles. Now, electric trains (which get electricity from catenary) use traction substations.
@@bluemoose0074 The United States enhanced geothermal power resource is 500 thousand megawatts (500 gigawatts).
Battery technology still has a long way to go before it can pull a train from point a to point b without stopping and recharging! Today’s locomotives can start out with a full tank of fuel and goes several days before refueling!
These rebuild programs are as much about avoiding problematic Tier 4 emissions standards for new locomotives as they are about saving capital.
There is a reasonable “middle ground” approach to battery electric locomotive tech. No, they may not ever completely replace diesel freight locomotives. However with improved energy density from graphene batteries, they could at some point greatly increase efficiency by harnessing wasted energy from braking and allow fewer diesels to move the same tonnage. It’s not any different than how a Prius works. People need to be more open minded and realistic about the problems and potential benefits of battery tech.
battery tech can definitely be beneficial. but it's not a fix all like many companies oversell.
No battery powered engine will come close to the legacy of a diesel engine
Facts
Just remember "they" said the same thing about steam locos when the first diesels came out in the 1930s.
No matter what I admire the Diesel engine’s I don’t want to see them go
Agreed!
4400 HP Diesel workhorse will not soon be replaced by any battery tech! PERIOD
I drive by this place anytime I go out to Justin to Railfan at I always love seeing those freshly Rebuilt GE Locomotives
You had me until you started talking about "Zero Emission Battery Powered Locomotives." The juice to charge that thing has to come from somewhere outside of the unit. It seems odd to think that two or four of these things will probably end up pulling coal trains, coal to run some of the electrical plants needed to keep the electricity on.
Here comes the new Wabtec yard locomotives. I see the writing on the wall.
I want to give some perspective regarding battery electric locomotives. A modern train doesn't have just a locomotive in it, but various machines.
The electric locomotive is intended to be used in a hybrid consist where its main purpose will be to recharge itself using the dynamic brake.
I mean neat but railroads will do seemingly anything but electrify their tracks to an actually modern standard. Overhead power was the future in the 30s and continues to be the most efficient way of electrifying the trains
Overheadlines requires more maintenance than the rails.
I remember back when this place was GE Manufacturing Solutions back when Railroad ls were still buying Locomotives
Yes, they are still buying new locomotives and rebuilding some too.
Oh please all electric battery locomotives will be an absolute flop, especially in cold and wintery conditions.
They basically just use them to start the train & going uphill. They don't use them for 100% of the trip unless it's a short distance. Most if the time it's off. Just dead weight.
@@TheMrPeteChannel so basically its relatable to a SLUG.
Well, the advantage is a much lower maintenance cost. If you use batteries that are optimized for a long cycle life you will have very few parts that wear out. On the other hand, your locomotives will be heavier. Much like you said, they will essentially have a slug/B unit permanently attached to the locomotive. However, the extra traction is just a neat bonus. For winter weather the locomotives have an advantage over electric cars, since they're huge. That makes it much easier to keep them warm, to the point where the extra grip might actually give them an advantage.
Wabtec is descended from the historic "Westinghouse Air Brake Co."
They’ve tried battery powered locomotives for years, and every single attempt fails miserably. Second only to attempts over the last 30+ years to put Caterpillar engines in locomotives. Fails every time…..and usually a catastrophic failure.
Just seen this bnsf tried pulling a full load only made it 5 miles down the track. Battery's we're dead. Maybe another 20 yrs??
I don't know where you got that information because in real life, the Wabtec battery powered unit that was trialed on the BNSF was seen as pretty successful.
Yup. I seen it on the internet! Derrrrrr
It's still difficult to imagine how the power plant on the inside of one of those things can move it at all to say nothing of pulling all the rail cars that go with it. Pretty amazing.
Not so much the power plant, but the electric traction motors. Lotsa torque.
Never understand the power behind the Electical power .
Nice loco
"Zero emissions" is a misleading claim on all electric locomotives. Somewhere electricity is being generated to recharge these locomotives and unless that electricity is wind, solar or hydroelectric, there will be emissions in the creation of that electricty.
Let’s rebuild the ALCOS.
A locomotive that can power up a neighborhood 😮🤔?
Where was this guy when the electrical gid in Dallas CRASHED 😮.?
With so many locomotives in storage they could of plugged a few into the grid and solved that issue 😉. But NO, let's let everybody freeze 🥶 along with their brains and don't think outside the box.
Think back, with that ice 🧊 storm that hit the northeast and Canada, CP Rail took one of their engines to a ice covered crossing, turned it 90 degrees, and drove it down the road, and plugged 🔌 it into the grid.
True story.
WAKE UP DALLAS⏰! IT HAS BEEN DONE😮!!!
Pretty short on detail...I wonder why 🤔 maybe for all the reasons listed below.
What happened to Morrison Knudsen
Wabtec purchased the Rail unit of Morrison-Knudsen & retired the name.
Lost me at zero emissions 👎
Flex drive is basically a electric "B" unit
They could have repainted it to a special 1000th scheme
Not without the permission of the railroad that owned it.
Zero emissions, except for the scores of dead battery packs that have out that have outlived their service life; zero emissions, except for those expended in mining the materials for said batteries... 🙄
What energy source would be in place to re charge those batteries??
@@aerospot2 Wind, solar, nuclear, tidal, hydro. That's not the problem. The batteries are the problem.
0:38 "railroads aren't buying new locomotives anymore" All Railroads except Passenger Railroads. Ik your mostly referring to freight railroads.
Mostly related to 'Tier' mandates govmt imposes on emissions. Rebuild doesnt need to worry about such.
@@aerospot2 Correct! The passenger railroads are mostly all government run. If the emissions equipment proves unreliable and costly to maintain, then they just raise your taxes to pay for it.
Yes, they're referring to freight railroads, since those account for well over 95% of the locomotives in the USA. Amtrak, by far the largest passenger railroad company in the US, owns about 400 locomotives, so I doubt there are more than 800 passenger locomotives in the US in total. Union Pacific, on its own, has about 8,000 freight locomotives. So, even if the only railroads in the USA were Union Pacific and passenger railroads, freight would still account for 90% of the market.
This video was great until 1:47. Battery locomotives will never succeed for the railroad
Hopefully, We'll stick to Diesel, And find another fuel That can Not only be clean, but also Can power the sweet Sounding engine of the Great GEVOs.
The Ultimate Subdivision Over Cajon, Now Available On DVD From Pentrex. CSX BNSF KCS NS CN CP UP GTW SOO line FEC Ferromex TFM NDeM DM&IR NPR D&RG Milwaukee Rd. and BC Rail.
A battery locomotive, common now
Nope Rare and I like it rare
Electric only locomotive? Hilarious 😂
battery powered locomotives. translation: NOTHING IS COOL ANYMORE
Battery locomotives won't happen for the same reason why railroads are rebuilding the old ones.
choo choo is on the smashup track lol
Yeah all electric nope not going to replace diesel. Sorry folks.
What are they going to do with the battery's when they go bad 👎
The FLXDrive is a glorified time-shifting slug unit for cheaply built, slow and steady mineral railroads like the B&LE that have a roller coaster profile, and have to use more units because of isolated grades. And a publicity show horse of course.
Dude we can't even get electric cars, let alone electric semi trucks to be reliable or efficient. We have no business looking to mass movers like rail, sea or air to go EV especially in a commercial/industrial/long-haul capacity until we can get the smaller units squared away. Every other evolution in propulsion has started small and expanded to larger power plants, this is no different. There is no sense in reinventing the wheel. One foot in front of the other. One step at a time.
1996. That’s not old
Domt bank on it you'll go broke.
no battery powered. locomotive please
Zero emissões, e os acidos das baterias que evaporam a cada recarga?
I don’t believe there’s battery acid since it’s lithium ion.
that is because tier 4 locomotives are junk. the old locomotives were built better
Did I hear "battery locos"!! What is it with EV's?? WHERE ,oh, WHERE IS THE "E" GOING TO COME FROM?!?!? Let's get somemore of that "Jim Jones juice"!!!
Excess capacity Just shut it down. Concentrate operations at the Erie, Pennsylvania plant.
Erie is union, this plant is not.
@@Joe-d7m6k that’s why they should tear it down, not just shut it down . Maybe sell it to Elon the scab cheap
Battery powered locomotive. 😂😂😂😂
Zero emissions....lol
Stop making desktop units please
I have always known that battery powered is the way to go .
BATTERY POWERED IS THE WORSE WAY GO LOOK UP A LITHIUM MINE BATTERY POWERED VEHICLES AND TRAINS ARE BAD FOR THE ENVIROMENT!
Battery technology may be a century away from use as train drives.
Sounds like woke pipe dreams.
First
With all the emissions bs they consume more fuel, make less power and are less reliable, this is a big trend with trucks as well