Daily ruling for June 7, 2021 - Urza's Saga + Blood Moon Support Judging FtW on Patreon at / judgingftw Tags: Continuous Effects, Types and Subtypes, Timing and Priority, State-Based Actions
What just happened? I was onboard with thinking it would just be a Mountain. I was kinda blown away when you said that it would be a Mountain AND have it's abilities. Then you just knocked me off my feet with that whole; Blood Moon causes it to be sacrificed as a state based action! What a ride!
It is technically possible to activate Urza's Saga's mana ability while a Blood Moon is on the battlefield. The first step is to be in the process of resolving a Eureka. If you put Blood Moon onto the battlefield first, its effect will start happening immediately, but state based actions cannot be checked yet because we are still resolving a spell. If the next card we put into play is a shockland, we are allowed to choose to pay 2 life as a replacement effect for it entering the battlefield, so that will also occur during the resolution of Eureka. If you also control an Enduring Angel and your life total is exactly 2 when you choose to do this, its replacement effect will set your life total to 3 and cause the angel to transform instead of putting you to 0, also during the resolution of Eureka because this is still all replacement effects. Because life total setting effects cause players to either lose or gain the amount necessary to set your life total, your going from 2 to 3 life counts as lifegain. Which can be replaced with drawing a card by Nefarious Lich, which can be replaced by searching your deck for any card with an Archmage's Ascendancy with 6 counters on it. Then, of course, we cast every judge's favorite 7 mana 9/5 Wurm with Trample during the process of searching our library, which gives us the opportunity to activate mana abilities.
"If the next card we put into play is a shockland, we are allowed to choose to pay 2 life as a replacement effect for it entering the battlefield" No, shocklands won't have the "as enters" ability, they will be Mountains. I recommend Minion of the Wastes or Phyrexian Processor instead.
An easier way: Animate Saga with something like Destiny Spinner, equip Assault Suit to it. It is still a creature under the moon and the ability is from the equipment. Now it cannot be sacrificed any more
Yep. Had this come up in an RCQ a couple weekends ago. I, as the Ponza player, knew that my opponent would have to sacrifice their Urza's Saga. They were unfamiliar with the interaction but I couldn't explain it well enough. The judge helped us learn the ins and outs. Just as you described!
I loved the style of this video! You could have ended it so much faster but we learned so much more by going over so many details and related interactions.
God I love this interaction so much. There's a certain amount of game rules knowledge you need and this interaction is one of my favorites because once you see one interaction you see the others (Stifle and chapter abilities, proliferate or Hex Parasite and lore counters, sacrifice static ability, these are all awesome interactions). Absolutely love the interaction!
1 you are top 2 - I almost had a heart attack now. I explained the interaction between the saga and the moon to my colleagues and until halfway through the video I was thinking I had explained it wrong.
Have you ever done a video on what happens when Aura loses its "enchant" ability? Opportunistic Dragon can do so when it steals an Aura that's also an artifact, but I have no idea what happens next. Is the Aura allowed to stay on whatever it's attached to because it has no restrictions on what it can enchant, or can it no longer legally enchant anything?
Dragon doesn't remove the aura from play or stop it from being an aura. There' no rule to stop you from casting bramble armor on your enemies creature. Effectively, its an aura still attached to the opponent's permanent, that has no text and cant attack/block, but its still an aura
The middle part of the explanation matters, because if you could do something that removed all the lore counters before Blood Moon resolved, you could keep the abilities.
I was thinking this might be the case, but since the final chapter number is 0, it will still be sacrificed since the number of lore counters is greater *or equal* to the final chapter number. The only exception would be if blood moon were to be flashed in in response to one of the chapter abilities, in which case it would be sacrificed as soon as that ability resolved.
The state-based actions effect will also apply when affected by other cards like Alpine Moon that will also remove the Urza land subtype from Urza's Saga and leave its Saga enchantment subtype on it in addition to removing all of its abilities. So as stated in the video, it will become a saga with no abilities and will be sacrificed by the owner next time state-based actions are checked. Because of this, Alpine Moon is sometimes played in the sideboard of Modern format decks just to interrupt players using Urza's Saga since it's considered a very valuable card capable of adding to the board while also fetching an important artifact.
If Blood Moon is in play, and I play Urza's Saga, would I put a lore counter on it, as it comes into play as that is not rules text, but associated with it being a Saga? Even if it becomes sacrificed right after it might be relevant that it has that counter.
@0pestilenz0 This is incorrect. It will still enter with a counter. It can't be sacrificed until it is on the battlefield, and state-based actions won't be checked until after it has entered the battlefield.
This is actually a really interesting question in its own right. Unlike planeswalkers, sagas do not get counters as they enter the battlefield because of an ability they have. Rather, there's a game rule that says sagas get a lore counter as they enter. Accordingly, this isn't something Blood Moon can take away, and Urza's Saga will enter with a lore counter. The chapter ability that would normally have that lets it tap for mana with the first lore counter is removed by Blood Moon, though, so it doesn't get that ability.
Given this, what would happen if you had an effect in play which increases the amount of counters that the saga comes into play with to 3? e.g. Two Doubling Seasons Would the Saga's final ability trigger and resolve as it comes into play even with Blood Moon in play?
@@Garagorn888 No, it doesn't have any chapter abilities at all. With two DS on the battlefield, your Urza's Saga will enter as Enchantment Land - Mountain Saga, no chapter abilities, and four lore counters, and then subsequently be sacrificed as a state-based action.
I was expecting this to be much simpler than it ended up being. I didn't really think too much about it and just shrugged it off as "yeah, it'll be a mountain". Turned out to be tremendously more interesting and disappointing. Btw, when you put the rules up on the screen, can you leave them up for a bit longer? They disappeared really quick in this video.
If someone played a chord of calling for magus of the moon in respose to the first chapter ability going on the stack would you be able to tap the urzas saga for red before the saga ability resolved, and get red mana before it gains the first lore counter and is sacrificed due to not having any chapters and 1 lore counter?
Wait, do I get this correctly? The intuitive effect resolution that almost everybody would assume is resolved in layer 4 where it loses it's abilities and gains the red mana tapping ability of Mountain land types, but because the granting of the abilities to the saga is a floating continuous effect, it regains those abilities in layer 6 anyways? But because the final chapter # gets set to 0 in layer 4, and it already has 2 tokens on it, it gets sacrificed by CR714.4?
I've always thought the wording on blood moon is very unintuitive, I think it would be better if it said something like nonbasic lands lose all abilities and become mountains. Urza's Saga is such a weird card, pretty sure that's the most text on a land.
I believe Urza's Saga is the only black-bordered card where the subtypes are in a different order from its types. Usually you can tell which belongs to which based on the order, though you still wouldn't be able to tell where the cutoff point is.
Hey Dave big fan. On my turn can my Volrath, the Shapestealer turn into a copy of Kaito, Bane of Nightmares which is enchanted by my opponent's Song of the Dryad?
I feel like there have been 1 million videos on blood moon and layer 4 but.... Can you do a video to address Dryad of Ilysian Grove - and blood moon - time stamping etc. Thanks!!
you can if you go to your local library and print it out. 3 hole punch the entire stack and bind it with twine so you can carry it around and slam it on the table for the intimidation factor.
Why is only the land type changed? as the card is written, its a mountain now, not a mountain in addition to its other types. Can you clarify why the spell does the minimum in terms of type changes, and ignores the enchantment type, but then still removes all text as a consequence of being a mountain? Does this mean creature land and artifact lands rea still creatures/artifacts under bloodmoon? Do the creatures still have a P/T?
If New Tron Hate Card deals lethal damage, does the second part (putting cards in ante) still happen, or are state-based actions (losing the game) checked in between?
State-based actions are checked right before anyone would gain priority, so not in the middle of resolving a spell or ability. So the spell will try to ante those cards before the player loses the game. However, just like only an object's controller can sacrifice that object, only an object's owner can ante that object, meaning that unless you target your own land, no cards will be anted. Even if this wasn't the case, the owner of the to-be-anted cards could always concede the game, because you are allowed to concede in the middle of a spell resolving.
I just watched a shirt on profs channel and was confused why turning it into an island sacced it. Now I THINK I get it- the enchantment part isn’t changed, just the land part and its printed abilities are lost. So it’s a saga island with no chapter abilities and is this sacrificed at the next state based action step. I was annoyed at the beginning of your video and nodding by the end. Even if I don’t quite get it your explanation made perfect sense at the time!
Ok so if I have an effect that gives all creature +1/+1, "starfield of nyx" w/ 4 other enchants, and equip assault suit to it I can tap it for red and use what ever abilities it had before bloodmoon?
I figured it would be a mountain and only have the additional abilities of however many saga counters were on it and at beginning of upkeep it would die, didn't realize the game checks sagas at all times not just when putting counters and would remove as state based action
What if you control a thespian's stage / vesuva that copied and urza's saga, would that object also have to be sac'ed as a state-based action if there's a blood moon on the battlefield?
Does that mean the lore counter adding ability is part of the rules text on the card? I had always thought it was "intrinsic" rules text to the Saga subtype.
Does this interaction change if the player controlling [[Urza's Saga]] also controls a [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]], and the [[Blood Moon]] is controlled by the opposing player? I ask because the gatherer page for [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]] specifically mentions the legend rule (704.5j) *not* being a sacrifice, but not the saga rule (704.5s)(715.4) which *is* a sacrifice.
A spell or ability an opponent controls is not (directly) causing you to sacrifice Urza's Saga. State-based actions are making you sacrifice Urza's Saga. So Sigarda wouldn't stop that from happening.
Does the state based action that forces you to sacrifice the Saga w/ no Chapters cause a trigger which uses the stack? Would I be able to use the ability to tap for R granted by blood moon before sacrificing the Urza's Saga to the SBA?
Great analysis video! Thanks for uploading! So, Urza's Saga retains its abilities because the thing that grants them is checked for on a later layer than what removes them, & despite all of its rules text being removed, the game still checks for that ability-granting ability?
The tap abilities are granted by a continuous effect that is generated by the *resolution* of the triggered chapter abilities. So, once those triggered chapter abilities resolve (and in fact, once they are put on the stack), the text on the card is irrelevant to the existence of the continuous effect.
Great explanation, could you make one video about how evoke triggers resolve and how we should play ephemerate or similar eefects on those cards please?
That one is real easy. Evoke is alternate cost, when the creature is casted for its evoke cost, it gains a triggered ability on etb that says ‘sacrifice this creature’. So now it has two triggered abilities that trigger when it etbs (for instance Ingot chewer has destroy target artifact). Whenever you control two or more triggered abiltiies that trigger off the same event, you could get to pick the order they will resolve. For grief, you will want to resolve the Thoughtseize effect first, that way you get to look at their hand, and potentially swipe a removal spell, before deciding if you want to ephemerate grief. After you resolve the Thoughtseize effect, there will be a sacrifice grief trigger still pending on the stack. If your opponent still has a kill spell after the Thoughtseize, you will want to abstain from casting ephemerate as they will get to respond by killing grief and blanking your ephemerate. If the coast is clear you will cast ephemerate, causing grief to be exiled and returned, when it returns it will have forgotten all about the evoke cost you paid as this new grief just came into play from exile, and the only etb trigger will be another Thoughtseize effect.
I found this channel today and already Blood Moon has come up at least three times for weird rulings. Maybe i should play a moon deck. RB Tamiyo something or other, I'm sure.
Could you make one on how Veyran and Harmonic Prodigy on the field interact with things like Gutter Snipe and other effects that trigger on cast ? Maybe also Harmonic Prodigy interactions with Naban, Dean of Iteration.
So if the blood moon is played after Saga step 2, the first two abilities would get lost and not return because they were gained before Urza's Saga got turned into a mountain and the text got removed?
Unless I'm understanding it wrong, 2:55 he says that the abilities are removed in layer 4 when the card type is overwritten to Mountain and then reapplied in layer 6 because the Saga's abilities are added by a resolved effect and not a conditional on the card. Basically the saga's ability is "add a lore counter: this card gains forever" and not: "Add a lore counter. If this card has X or more Lore Counters it gains ." It would lose both abilities from being Mountain'd but in the former case Blood Moon cannot retroactively stop the ability from going off so while it no longer has the ability "add a lore counter: this card gains forever" and loses the granted ability it's almost immediately reapplied from the previously resolved effect 2 layers later.
@@JudgingFtW so, after the land enters, AP would receive priority, thereby causing the same to check for state based actions? (think I understand here)
Since Alpine Moon makes all the abilities go away we come back to the end result of a sage with more or equal counters to its chapter abilities (which it doesnt have anymore so 0 would already do the job) and causes it to be sacrificed
No, State based actions are checked every time a player would get priority. So basically all the time, except during the resolution of spells/abilities and sth like that.
Same end result as the saga will end up losing its abilties and as just shown in the video, a saga with lore counters equal or more then its chapters will be sacrificed. removing the abilities will leave the saga with 0 chapters
thanks for making this! this is a really cool and totally non-obvious interaction. just curious - lets say Urza's saga had "tap: add (1)". and my opponent resolved a blood moon. would I be able to tap my urza's saga for (1) between the time that blood moon resolved and state based effects are checked? sorry, am a noobie
@@clauderains1894 correct. State-based actions are checked immediately before anyone would get priority, each time someone *would* get priority. Therefore, once Blood Moon resolves, you wouldn't get priority until after Urza's Saga is sacrificed to having more saga counters thsn saga abilities.
Moving counters doesn't actually move the physical counters. You remove the counters and add the same number of counters of the same type. So they both work at the same time.
This is frustrating me, if someone can dumb it down for me ill be grateful Why would urza's saga still retain its abilities with blood moon out while urbog would loose its ability to make everything a swamp
It is because the abilities that Urza's Sage grants itself are not set up by Urza's Saga directly. All Urza's Saga does is accumulate lore counters and a triggered ability goes onto the stack for each one. The triggered ability gives Urza's Sage the abilites and not the Saga itself. This is important because when Blood Moon removes all of Urza's Saga's abilities, it doesn't remove the triggered ability that was set up by it earlier and that will still give it its effects. In the case of Urborg, it is the continious effect of the card itself that makes it a Swamp, not another ability. Blood Moon is a continious effect as well, so we try to apply both effects in the order of the layer system. Blood Moon's effect applies in layer 4 and Urborg's effect applies in layer 6. Which means we remove all abilites from Urborg in layer 4 due to it becoming a Mountain. Then by the time we reach layer 6 and we try to apply the continious effect of Urborg to turn itself into a Swamp, we see that Urborg has become a Mountain which doesn't have this continious effect anymore. So this continious effect never applies.
Nice video! Definite sub. I guess I should look in to see more about when SBA's are checked in the game. It's a bummer. It would be fun to have saga be Blood Moon-Proof and just keep acting like a Saga.
I feel like wizards is going to errata, or clarify, the rulings for Saga's because of this. Spreading seas being a 2-drop land destruction spell to urza's saga is pretty insane. Same with blood moon doubling up as LD. Saga lands shouldn't just "be destroyed" because of this wonky interaction.
In fact, Blood Moon in Magic (1994) predates Blood Moon in Zelda (2017) by two full decades! Both of these uses come from the various real-world atmospheric/astronomical phenomena that can result in the moon turning red that have been observed and revered by humans for hundreds of years.
Hypothetically speaking, if someone really wanted to keep that token generator on the battlefield, would it be possible to enchant it with One with the Stars to keep the Urza's Saga on the battlefield and avoid the state based sacrifice?
Now we just need to find a way to remove enchantment subtypes before resolving blood moon, and we'll finally have our nonbasic mountain enchantment that makes a karnstruct every turn.
@@Muspelful so it has abilities that already triggered but won’t get new ones? I’m not sure what you’re saying. Are you using “abilities” and “saga abilities” to imply those are separate?
Ok I think I get it. If it has “gained” an ability those hang around. But because it has lost all of its chapter abilities ( chapter abilities = 0 ) then you have to sacrifice it because it’s lore counters is equal to or greater than 0.
@@patmacrotch5611 Correct. In fact, if you have Thespian Stage copy Urza's Saga, then have it change into another land, then it keeps any abilities that it gained while it was Urza's Saga because those are "permanent".
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As a Magus of the Moon player, this video was such a rollercoaster of emotions.
"Yes! Wait, nooooo!! Nevermind, YES!"
"...but first, we need to talk about Parallel Universes."
haha yes!
This is the one. Fly high my friend.
I see a Pannenkoek reference, I like that Pannenkoek reference.
A Saga is a Saga, you can’t say it’s only half-Saga half-Land
This exact situation came up in a commander game today. My play group didn't know what to do, so I brought up this video for them to watch.
What just happened? I was onboard with thinking it would just be a Mountain. I was kinda blown away when you said that it would be a Mountain AND have it's abilities. Then you just knocked me off my feet with that whole; Blood Moon causes it to be sacrificed as a state based action! What a ride!
It is technically possible to activate Urza's Saga's mana ability while a Blood Moon is on the battlefield.
The first step is to be in the process of resolving a Eureka. If you put Blood Moon onto the battlefield first, its effect will start happening immediately, but state based actions cannot be checked yet because we are still resolving a spell. If the next card we put into play is a shockland, we are allowed to choose to pay 2 life as a replacement effect for it entering the battlefield, so that will also occur during the resolution of Eureka. If you also control an Enduring Angel and your life total is exactly 2 when you choose to do this, its replacement effect will set your life total to 3 and cause the angel to transform instead of putting you to 0, also during the resolution of Eureka because this is still all replacement effects. Because life total setting effects cause players to either lose or gain the amount necessary to set your life total, your going from 2 to 3 life counts as lifegain. Which can be replaced with drawing a card by Nefarious Lich, which can be replaced by searching your deck for any card with an Archmage's Ascendancy with 6 counters on it. Then, of course, we cast every judge's favorite 7 mana 9/5 Wurm with Trample during the process of searching our library, which gives us the opportunity to activate mana abilities.
"If the next card we put into play is a shockland, we are allowed to choose to pay 2 life as a replacement effect for it entering the battlefield"
No, shocklands won't have the "as enters" ability, they will be Mountains. I recommend Minion of the Wastes or Phyrexian Processor instead.
Ah yes. The “book” wurm.
An easier way: Animate Saga with something like Destiny Spinner, equip Assault Suit to it. It is still a creature under the moon and the ability is from the equipment. Now it cannot be sacrificed any more
I was going to suggest playing a Rules Lawyer, but you clearly already have one :P
You’re hired
Yep. Had this come up in an RCQ a couple weekends ago. I, as the Ponza player, knew that my opponent would have to sacrifice their Urza's Saga. They were unfamiliar with the interaction but I couldn't explain it well enough. The judge helped us learn the ins and outs. Just as you described!
God, I love this channel. What a disaster of an interaction. Absolutely brilliant.
This is an incredibly interesting series of rules that leads to the final ruling. As always, top-notch content for things like this.
I loved the style of this video! You could have ended it so much faster but we learned so much more by going over so many details and related interactions.
I really like how you put the rules on the screen while discussing! super cool!
God I love this interaction so much. There's a certain amount of game rules knowledge you need and this interaction is one of my favorites because once you see one interaction you see the others (Stifle and chapter abilities, proliferate or Hex Parasite and lore counters, sacrifice static ability, these are all awesome interactions). Absolutely love the interaction!
Whooooo that was a ride. Thank you for the thorough explanation.
In summary, layers make my head hurt
1 you are top
2 - I almost had a heart attack now. I explained the interaction between the saga and the moon to my colleagues and until halfway through the video I was thinking I had explained it wrong.
Haha i love the "new tron hate card" !
Would be very funny to steal all your opponents eldrazi by ante. This would definetly change the meta :D
Have you ever done a video on what happens when Aura loses its "enchant" ability? Opportunistic Dragon can do so when it steals an Aura that's also an artifact, but I have no idea what happens next. Is the Aura allowed to stay on whatever it's attached to because it has no restrictions on what it can enchant, or can it no longer legally enchant anything?
Dragon doesn't remove the aura from play or stop it from being an aura. There' no rule to stop you from casting bramble armor on your enemies creature. Effectively, its an aura still attached to the opponent's permanent, that has no text and cant attack/block, but its still an aura
This DDR was certainly a roller coaster
The middle part of the explanation matters, because if you could do something that removed all the lore counters before Blood Moon resolved, you could keep the abilities.
I was thinking this might be the case, but since the final chapter number is 0, it will still be sacrificed since the number of lore counters is greater *or equal* to the final chapter number. The only exception would be if blood moon were to be flashed in in response to one of the chapter abilities, in which case it would be sacrificed as soon as that ability resolved.
The state-based actions effect will also apply when affected by other cards like Alpine Moon that will also remove the Urza land subtype from Urza's Saga and leave its Saga enchantment subtype on it in addition to removing all of its abilities. So as stated in the video, it will become a saga with no abilities and will be sacrificed by the owner next time state-based actions are checked. Because of this, Alpine Moon is sometimes played in the sideboard of Modern format decks just to interrupt players using Urza's Saga since it's considered a very valuable card capable of adding to the board while also fetching an important artifact.
I love the New Tron Hate Card, really violent though using the Ante zone
If Blood Moon is in play, and I play Urza's Saga, would I put a lore counter on it, as it comes into play as that is not rules text, but associated with it being a Saga? Even if it becomes sacrificed right after it might be relevant that it has that counter.
@0pestilenz0 This is incorrect. It will still enter with a counter. It can't be sacrificed until it is on the battlefield, and state-based actions won't be checked until after it has entered the battlefield.
This is actually a really interesting question in its own right. Unlike planeswalkers, sagas do not get counters as they enter the battlefield because of an ability they have. Rather, there's a game rule that says sagas get a lore counter as they enter. Accordingly, this isn't something Blood Moon can take away, and Urza's Saga will enter with a lore counter. The chapter ability that would normally have that lets it tap for mana with the first lore counter is removed by Blood Moon, though, so it doesn't get that ability.
Given this, what would happen if you had an effect in play which increases the amount of counters that the saga comes into play with to 3? e.g. Two Doubling Seasons
Would the Saga's final ability trigger and resolve as it comes into play even with Blood Moon in play?
@@Garagorn888 No, it doesn't have any chapter abilities at all. With two DS on the battlefield, your Urza's Saga will enter as Enchantment Land - Mountain Saga, no chapter abilities, and four lore counters, and then subsequently be sacrificed as a state-based action.
I was expecting this to be much simpler than it ended up being. I didn't really think too much about it and just shrugged it off as "yeah, it'll be a mountain". Turned out to be tremendously more interesting and disappointing.
Btw, when you put the rules up on the screen, can you leave them up for a bit longer? They disappeared really quick in this video.
Pause it
If I'm thinking right, Spreading Seas and other similar effects do the same thing aswell.
you are indeed thinking right
If someone played a chord of calling for magus of the moon in respose to the first chapter ability going on the stack would you be able to tap the urzas saga for red before the saga ability resolved, and get red mana before it gains the first lore counter and is sacrificed due to not having any chapters and 1 lore counter?
Wait, do I get this correctly? The intuitive effect resolution that almost everybody would assume is resolved in layer 4 where it loses it's abilities and gains the red mana tapping ability of Mountain land types, but because the granting of the abilities to the saga is a floating continuous effect, it regains those abilities in layer 6 anyways? But because the final chapter # gets set to 0 in layer 4, and it already has 2 tokens on it, it gets sacrificed by CR714.4?
Blood moon is one of those cards that really needs five lines of reminder text, even as a rare.
I've always thought the wording on blood moon is very unintuitive, I think it would be better if it said something like nonbasic lands lose all abilities and become mountains. Urza's Saga is such a weird card, pretty sure that's the most text on a land.
Lands with the most text printed on them are technically The Full-Text Lands from Secret Lair. They have ~190 words each.
@@bludek I know those are a real thing, but I refuse to believe they are a real thing
I believe Urza's Saga is the only black-bordered card where the subtypes are in a different order from its types. Usually you can tell which belongs to which based on the order, though you still wouldn't be able to tell where the cutoff point is.
i feel like dave should have like a 3 foot long grey beard and carry a wizard staff. absolute madman.
Thank you so much for the clarification.
Totally hyped for the new Tron hate card.
Thank u for the breakdown.
Hey Dave big fan. On my turn can my Volrath, the Shapestealer turn into a copy of Kaito, Bane of Nightmares which is enchanted by my opponent's Song of the Dryad?
I feel like there have been 1 million videos on blood moon and layer 4 but.... Can you do a video to address Dryad of Ilysian Grove - and blood moon - time stamping etc. Thanks!!
It's so funny to me that Urza's and Saga are different subtypes
I can’t be the only one to wish I had Dave’s power to hand slam a projection of the CR in my opponent’s face when they doubt me.
you can if you go to your local library and print it out. 3 hole punch the entire stack and bind it with twine so you can carry it around and slam it on the table for the intimidation factor.
Why is only the land type changed? as the card is written, its a mountain now, not a mountain in addition to its other types. Can you clarify why the spell does the minimum in terms of type changes, and ignores the enchantment type, but then still removes all text as a consequence of being a mountain? Does this mean creature land and artifact lands rea still creatures/artifacts under bloodmoon? Do the creatures still have a P/T?
I go into more detail about this kind of question in my video on Blood Moon + Dryad Arbor: th-cam.com/video/DQAeyJ2lbo8/w-d-xo.html
Thanks! Keep up the good work.
Came here to understand Tide Shaper + Urza’s Saga left not understanding Urza’s Saga anymore
It's still so weird that urza gets his own special "Urza's" subtype
Does Spreading Seas kill the depletion lands from Mercadian Masques???
If New Tron Hate Card deals lethal damage, does the second part (putting cards in ante) still happen, or are state-based actions (losing the game) checked in between?
State-based actions are checked right before anyone would gain priority, so not in the middle of resolving a spell or ability. So the spell will try to ante those cards before the player loses the game. However, just like only an object's controller can sacrifice that object, only an object's owner can ante that object, meaning that unless you target your own land, no cards will be anted. Even if this wasn't the case, the owner of the to-be-anted cards could always concede the game, because you are allowed to concede in the middle of a spell resolving.
I just watched a shirt on profs channel and was confused why turning it into an island sacced it. Now I THINK I get it- the enchantment part isn’t changed, just the land part and its printed abilities are lost. So it’s a saga island with no chapter abilities and is this sacrificed at the next state based action step.
I was annoyed at the beginning of your video and nodding by the end. Even if I don’t quite get it your explanation made perfect sense at the time!
Your summary does a pretty good job encapsulating this ruling, so I'd say you understood pretty well
Ok so if I have an effect that gives all creature +1/+1, "starfield of nyx" w/ 4 other enchants, and equip assault suit to it I can tap it for red and use what ever abilities it had before bloodmoon?
I finally understand how and why...finally!
I figured it would be a mountain and only have the additional abilities of however many saga counters were on it and at beginning of upkeep it would die, didn't realize the game checks sagas at all times not just when putting counters and would remove as state based action
"New Tron Hate Card" is hilarious
What if you control a thespian's stage / vesuva that copied and urza's saga, would that object also have to be sac'ed as a state-based action if there's a blood moon on the battlefield?
So you can't even tap Urza's Saga for red just before sacrificing it, right?
Miss you in Brazil, brother ♥️
So I'm guessing the reminder text isn't actually accurate to how sagas work. (Sac after III)
It's accurate for most cases, but since it's a simplification of the actual rules going on under the hood, it's not 100% accurate in 100% of cases.
Does that mean the lore counter adding ability is part of the rules text on the card? I had always thought it was "intrinsic" rules text to the Saga subtype.
No, but the abilities that are activated by adding lore counters go away.
How does the Saga interact with Blood Sun?
Does this interaction change if the player controlling [[Urza's Saga]] also controls a [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]], and the [[Blood Moon]] is controlled by the opposing player? I ask because the gatherer page for [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]] specifically mentions the legend rule (704.5j) *not* being a sacrifice, but not the saga rule (704.5s)(715.4) which *is* a sacrifice.
A spell or ability an opponent controls is not (directly) causing you to sacrifice Urza's Saga. State-based actions are making you sacrifice Urza's Saga. So Sigarda wouldn't stop that from happening.
Maybe I don't play competitive magic enough but why did this take 8 minutes to explain?
Does the state based action that forces you to sacrifice the Saga w/ no Chapters cause a trigger which uses the stack? Would I be able to use the ability to tap for R granted by blood moon before sacrificing the Urza's Saga to the SBA?
Unfortunately, no. State-based actions do not use the stack. They just happen anytime the game checks for them.
Great analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
So, Urza's Saga retains its abilities because the thing that grants them is checked for on a later layer than what removes them, & despite all of its rules text being removed, the game still checks for that ability-granting ability?
The tap abilities are granted by a continuous effect that is generated by the *resolution* of the triggered chapter abilities. So, once those triggered chapter abilities resolve (and in fact, once they are put on the stack), the text on the card is irrelevant to the existence of the continuous effect.
This video is like the mtg version of a phsysicist explaining why matter has mass
Would you believe I have a minor in physics and also taught it while I was in college. So almost like a physicist...
@@JudgingFtW that doesnt suprise me! They both have lots of weird rules and interactions.
Great explanation, could you make one video about how evoke triggers resolve and how we should play ephemerate or similar eefects on those cards please?
That one is real easy. Evoke is alternate cost, when the creature is casted for its evoke cost, it gains a triggered ability on etb that says ‘sacrifice this creature’. So now it has two triggered abilities that trigger when it etbs (for instance Ingot chewer has destroy target artifact). Whenever you control two or more triggered abiltiies that trigger off the same event, you could get to pick the order they will resolve. For grief, you will want to resolve the Thoughtseize effect first, that way you get to look at their hand, and potentially swipe a removal spell, before deciding if you want to ephemerate grief. After you resolve the Thoughtseize effect, there will be a sacrifice grief trigger still pending on the stack. If your opponent still has a kill spell after the Thoughtseize, you will want to abstain from casting ephemerate as they will get to respond by killing grief and blanking your ephemerate. If the coast is clear you will cast ephemerate, causing grief to be exiled and returned, when it returns it will have forgotten all about the evoke cost you paid as this new grief just came into play from exile, and the only etb trigger will be another Thoughtseize effect.
I found this channel today and already Blood Moon has come up at least three times for weird rulings.
Maybe i should play a moon deck.
RB Tamiyo something or other, I'm sure.
If you haven't yet, check out the full Blood Moon playlist here: th-cam.com/video/bS_WzyfPqmc/w-d-xo.html
@@JudgingFtW jfc thank you
OMG, so does this mean that artifact lands are still artifact's - mountain's now?
yeah, always were. Super types are unaffected by Blood Moon
what about urzas saga and aquitects will?
Could you make one on how Veyran and Harmonic Prodigy on the field interact with things like Gutter Snipe and other effects that trigger on cast ? Maybe also Harmonic Prodigy interactions with Naban, Dean of Iteration.
Wow I didn't know it made them sac it too
So if the blood moon is played after Saga step 2, the first two abilities would get lost and not return because they were gained before Urza's Saga got turned into a mountain and the text got removed?
Unless I'm understanding it wrong, 2:55 he says that the abilities are removed in layer 4 when the card type is overwritten to Mountain and then reapplied in layer 6 because the Saga's abilities are added by a resolved effect and not a conditional on the card. Basically the saga's ability is "add a lore counter: this card gains forever" and not: "Add a lore counter. If this card has X or more Lore Counters it gains ." It would lose both abilities from being Mountain'd but in the former case Blood Moon cannot retroactively stop the ability from going off so while it no longer has the ability "add a lore counter: this card gains forever" and loses the granted ability it's almost immediately reapplied from the previously resolved effect 2 layers later.
Does the AP have a chance to tap Urza’s Saga for red mana before sacrificing it?
No. State-Based actions will bin the Urza's Saga before either player has a chance to activate abilities, even mana abilities.
@@JudgingFtW so, after the land enters, AP would receive priority, thereby causing the same to check for state based actions?
(think I understand here)
Urza's saga would also be sacrificed if blood sun was in play, right?
Awesome! What bloody cliffhanger end.
Thanks for the great content!
By the way, would it be similar with Alpine Moon?
Since Alpine Moon makes all the abilities go away we come back to the end result of a sage with more or equal counters to its chapter abilities (which it doesnt have anymore so 0 would already do the job) and causes it to be sacrificed
@@somebodywh0 Thank you!
I imagined, but it's always nice to be sure. :)
Can you play Urza's Saga and tap it for red before it dies like a Simian Spirit Guide?
What a mission just to find out it gets sacrificed.
So we just need to prevent it from being a Saga!
Opalescence+Humility?
So what does state based actions. Is that your upkeep?
No, State based actions are checked every time a player would get priority. So basically all the time, except during the resolution of spells/abilities and sth like that.
My new favorite card is New Tron Hate Card.
How does the saga works with alpine moon or blood sun? is almost the same?
Same end result as the saga will end up losing its abilties and as just shown in the video, a saga with lore counters equal or more then its chapters will be sacrificed. removing the abilities will leave the saga with 0 chapters
So ... bloodbriar does get a +1 / +1 counter ?
thanks for making this! this is a really cool and totally non-obvious interaction.
just curious - lets say Urza's saga had "tap: add (1)". and my opponent resolved a blood moon. would I be able to tap my urza's saga for (1) between the time that blood moon resolved and state based effects are checked?
sorry, am a noobie
"With Blood moon on the stack, tap Urza's Saga for (1)" If you wait until it resolves there will not be an opportunity.
@@patrickcunningham6464 So you wouldn't be able to tap it for red?
@@clauderains1894 correct. State-based actions are checked immediately before anyone would get priority, each time someone *would* get priority. Therefore, once Blood Moon resolves, you wouldn't get priority until after Urza's Saga is sacrificed to having more saga counters thsn saga abilities.
Could you do a video in the interaction between modular and the ozolith?
Moving counters doesn't actually move the physical counters. You remove the counters and add the same number of counters of the same type. So they both work at the same time.
They had is in the first half, not gonna lie.
This is frustrating me, if someone can dumb it down for me ill be grateful
Why would urza's saga still retain its abilities with blood moon out while urbog would loose its ability to make everything a swamp
It is because the abilities that Urza's Sage grants itself are not set up by Urza's Saga directly.
All Urza's Saga does is accumulate lore counters and a triggered ability goes onto the stack for each one. The triggered ability gives Urza's Sage the abilites and not the Saga itself. This is important because when Blood Moon removes all of Urza's Saga's abilities, it doesn't remove the triggered ability that was set up by it earlier and that will still give it its effects.
In the case of Urborg, it is the continious effect of the card itself that makes it a Swamp, not another ability. Blood Moon is a continious effect as well, so we try to apply both effects in the order of the layer system. Blood Moon's effect applies in layer 4 and Urborg's effect applies in layer 6. Which means we remove all abilites from Urborg in layer 4 due to it becoming a Mountain. Then by the time we reach layer 6 and we try to apply the continious effect of Urborg to turn itself into a Swamp, we see that Urborg has become a Mountain which doesn't have this continious effect anymore. So this continious effect never applies.
Do you cover blood sun
What happens if both you and your opponent have and "it that betrays" in play?
They both trigger in APNAP order, they will then resolve in opposite order with the second one failing to find the card it is looking for.
Will I be able to float a red before it dies?
I could be wrong but perhaps only during the upkeep phase then. Ask a judge.
Does Spreading Seas shut down Tron?
This topic is covered on DDR#21: th-cam.com/video/hmCE4atsa54/w-d-xo.html
I actually expected it to still have the self granting abilities because of how blood moon and chromatic lantern interact.
My head hurts.
It's really kinda Hilarious. Blood Moon is stone rain for Urza's Saga effectively.
Nice video! Definite sub. I guess I should look in to see more about when SBA's are checked in the game. It's a bummer. It would be fun to have saga be Blood Moon-Proof and just keep acting like a Saga.
VISION CHARM VISION CHARM VISION CHARM
STIFLENOUGHT BAYBEEEEEEEEE
I understood everything from @6:40.
Do all of the same rulings apply if Urza's Saga were to be enchanted by Spreading Seas?
Yes, this is the same rules at work and everything works the same way (except Spreading Seas makes it an Island instead of a Mountain).
@@JudgingFtW Thanks so much!
I feel like wizards is going to errata, or clarify, the rulings for Saga's because of this. Spreading seas being a 2-drop land destruction spell to urza's saga is pretty insane. Same with blood moon doubling up as LD. Saga lands shouldn't just "be destroyed" because of this wonky interaction.
@@bobby45825 Urza's saga is a powerful card that is viable in some vintage decks. I think it is OK that it has powerful hate cards against it.
@@justinmosovsky6921 Vintage isn't a format wizards designs around.
It surprised me that there was a card called "blood moon". That's from Zelda!
In fact, Blood Moon in Magic (1994) predates Blood Moon in Zelda (2017) by two full decades! Both of these uses come from the various real-world atmospheric/astronomical phenomena that can result in the moon turning red that have been observed and revered by humans for hundreds of years.
My nose is bleeding.
Hypothetically speaking, if someone really wanted to keep that token generator on the battlefield, would it be possible to enchant it with One with the Stars to keep the Urza's Saga on the battlefield and avoid the state based sacrifice?
If you just want the permanent token generator, you could play Solemnity instead of Blood Moon once Urza's Saga has reached chapter 2.
Since saga is an enchantment subtype and One with the Stars does not make it lose the enchantment type, that would not work.
I really hope they print New Tron Hate Card.
I still have no idea what he said lol >.
Now we just need to find a way to remove enchantment subtypes before resolving blood moon, and we'll finally have our nonbasic mountain enchantment that makes a karnstruct every turn.
Also, ante the top 10 cards of your library sounds perfectly fair and balanced as a tron hate card, I'm sure it'll be in MH3.
Help plz. Someone can explain it in French ? Thx a lot.
So it both has saga abilities and doesn’t have saga abilities at the same time?
No, no, no. It has abilities that were granted to it when a saga ability triggered, but it doesn't have saga abilities.
@@Muspelful so it has abilities that already triggered but won’t get new ones? I’m not sure what you’re saying. Are you using “abilities” and “saga abilities” to imply those are separate?
Ok I think I get it. If it has “gained” an ability those hang around. But because it has lost all of its chapter abilities ( chapter abilities = 0 ) then you have to sacrifice it because it’s lore counters is equal to or greater than 0.
@@patmacrotch5611 Correct. In fact, if you have Thespian Stage copy Urza's Saga, then have it change into another land, then it keeps any abilities that it gained while it was Urza's Saga because those are "permanent".
@@Muspelful Ok, well now I have to ask why is that? When it "becomes a copy" why do those gained abilities hang around?
Cryptic command bounces it... Idk lol
I'm so confused!