CN was definitely the lead blame here. Having your crew sleep 3 -5 hours before the next train, you're just asking for something to happen. My condolences to all the ppl that lost loved ones on this accident
I’m a retired Kiwirail engineer. After this crash workers and management here began a long (and ongoing) process to improve our ways of working. We operated much like CN and thought we were safe. It was a terrifying wake up call.
idk this doesnt make sense it showed they radios eachother at the slow down light meaning they were awake n conscious of needing to slow then stop if conductor had a stroke y did he speed up perhaps he sped up accidentpy during stroke n the assistant was asleep but y would the caboose op fall aslep just after radioing about the slow down signal seems very convenient .its ridiculous they dont have rail dispathcera watching the trains n there speed making sure to stay in contact of the trains n the proceadurea they should b taking n monitoring if there not n b able to tell other trains about it tbey should also have remote access to intervene
@@roman-om2fh It's a bit confusing the way they show it in the doc - the earlier convos seem to be about an earlier point in the journey, not the later signal they missed. As for the conductor's testimony later, it's generally believed he was uh. Lying. Because what he said really didn't make sense with the circumstances of the accident. Reading about the accident, they had to stop at an earlier point to let other trains go by. But I guess between that stopping point and the next one, all three nodded off (or the engineer might have had a medical event, but the other two nodded off).
the ratio of deaths/properly finished rounds with the trains is too high to be changed, if the current system, doesn't result into too many deaths, the companies will not change it sadly@@killman369547
That my friends, is the value of a Veteran. Other people yes, could also act and operate in times of stress, but we are trained to overcome and adapt. Cheers and hand-salute to all that are serving, and have served.
A comment about these 3 railroaders that fell asleep. My Canadian cousin was in the airlines in the 1960's. He mentioned on a long night-time flight, all 3 had fallen asleep (pilot, co-pilot, and navigator). He woke up first, only the auto-pilot was flying. He shook the other guys, and things went back to normal. He said things like that happened rather often. It was a long time ago, my cousin has passed-on. But I remember the story. The load of airplane passengers would have gone crazy, if they knew.
In 1985 there was an air disaster in USSR (near near Uchkuduk, modern day Uzbekistan) that happened because all crew in the cockpit fall asleep. They woke up because of stick-shake (aircraft was going into stall so they got notification) but were too disoriented to react accordingly to situation. Airport they were flying out of was brand new, and most facilities were still under construction, including crew resting area. So while crew had enough time to rest, they didn't really get any proper sleep.
I am not sure but i think there are such checks in trains or /and signals and tracks to prevent disaster. There is a kind of autopilot on trains nowadays and I guess they stay in contact with the signals.
One of the major airlines had a flight that overflew its destination in Minnesota because the crew were asleep. They were over an hour past their landing time when the mistake was discovered.
@@ALuimes He was asleep too the whole time. that's why he didn't pull the emergency switch and that's why nobody else heard him on the radio. He's just lucky enough to survive And lie about it.
Dude is an absolute G. What a legend. Took a window out with his damn head to create an exit. 🤯 Any awards he wasn't given during his service he should have received for that single act of recklessly brave badassery.
This is exactly why it's so very important for for people who have jobs like this get their needed rest, I have no doubt in my mind that the crew in the CN train fell asleep. Laws are needed to make sure anyone with this kind of job only works 12hr shifts a a time and are required to go home and rest afterwards. RIP to all who were lost in this tragedy :( happened before I was even born.
Unfortunately it doesn't work out like that. Often we get off, have our 10 hours of rest, then sit around for another 12 hours waiting to get called for another train (which is a 12 hour shift). Now by the time you get off work you've been up for 24 hours. It's a horrific way to live and the truth that no one really wants to say out loud is that it's never going to change. New systems like Positive Train Control will certainly save lives but it doesn't address the underlying problem that we are always always always fatigued when running our trains.
My son works for CN and fatigue is a HUGE problem. They can be made to work well over 30 hours, this decided by people with CN office jobs who wouldn't ever agree to that for themselves. Insanity.
even if they weren't asleep, Fatigue can become very scary very quickly. With a certain level of exhaustion you can't properly react anymore even if you're "awake".
In America it is a federal rule,12hours total per shift. That includes any time sitting in the yard waiting to get permission from dispatch to leave yard.
Former conductor here (CP, mid-1990s, based at Toronto Yard). This accident and its causes were taught to us in rules classes the first couple of days after getting hired. I didn't remember the details all that vividly until I watched this (plus it was over a decade before I hired on). Our rules instructor said that every rule in the book is written in blood, and here's why. No rest, bunkhouse culture, Rule G being a suggestion back in those days, etc. There are two crewmembers in the lead locomotive to observe and confirm signal indications and rule compliance, but when both crewmembers are on almost no sleep and/or sick that went out the window. The train would have passed an Advanced Clear To Stop signal, a Clear To Stop, and finally a Stop And Stay at a homeball exiting the siding, but the experienced Conductor, who would have known every twist and turn in that stretch to be qualified on it would have known to dump the pipe once he lost contact with the head end. He was lying like a rug at the hearing in my opinion.
He was definitely lying. Either he fell asleep as well or he didn't want to put the engineers in the position of explaining why the emergency brake had to be activated in the caboose. Some macho comradery nonsense. He probably didn't believe something so serious could happen to him and his crew from crossing a red light; it's likely happened before. All in all, heavy negligence and incompetence.
More people have lost their jobs not pulling the emergency brake valve when they should have than the other way around. Rule 33 is one conductors sometimes have issues with. It takes guts to put the train into emergency, not to mention you actually need to recognize when it's needed and act without hesitation.
My dad was a railroader for 45 years. He had heard of all the violations on the books that mostly went uninvestigated and not dealt with by the "company". After I got out of my military service, he warned me to never, ever consider a career with the railroad if I valued my sanity, reputation, and my life.
I thought of it after military and talked to a few freight crews at a hotel they'd stay at overnight. Pretty much was told it was great decades ago, but that as younger people took over management with no actual rail experience that all they cared about was getting things done fasr as possible bypassing safety and saving money. Then supervisors would observe at a distance look for more senior guys doing things the way they wanted then firing them for bypassing safety like they wanted in order to hire guys they could pay less. The crews on trains were being forced to work longer hours with less sleep. Then several told me that the only way you max out your pension contributions is by being laid off or fired from multiple railroads as you're forced to bounce around. I figured uncertainty wasn't the career path I wanted. Also considered that it should be easy to introduce self driving trains.
My dad retired from ConRail in the US just prior to this accident. His job had been bought out. I remember times with him that, thinking back, should've been criminal. The crews had to do regular calls on the road, calls when they left or reached their stops, and they had to call back in to the dispatcher when they got home. Each crew was given an "out" order, meaning that if one railyard operated 25 crews, you had a rotation of those 25 crews being in various stages on the road or at home, the most rested crew was the next one to pick up the next train and take it. Dad wasn't so lucky to have a railyard with 25 crews. They had 8 at a good time. It was always enjoyable to hear him get 4th out or more. It meant a day or more at home. 2nd out or 3rd out meant stay at home by the phone so when dispatch called, you could head in to grab the next train. First out was you were on standby. Get everything packed you're taking with you, have your stuff in your call. When the dispatcher calls you, you have 1 hour to arrive at the railyard. That was the way of the Erie Lakawana, the Penn Central, and ConRail. I remember towards the end of his working career, there were weeks where he'd get home, make the call to dispatch and find out he was already First out. Cabooses were gone, two positions eliminated. In the 70s, a crew was 4. You see in this video there was a caboose. When those were eliminated, the crews in the US were dropped to two at front only. But crews had already been dropped to 3 before the caboose was dropped. Dad worked in these 2-man crews a few months before retiring. Each route had a certain number of crews. Dad's route was Ft. Wayne (later Elkhart) to Cressline, Ohio or Lima, Ohio, and sometimes even further east. Rarely, his crew drew the short stick, as it was called, where they went all the way into Pennsylvania to drop the train. Those crews were gone for days, almost a full week. I say all that as a preface. Dad taught me growing up all the signals, horns, and meanings along the tracks. He went through some of the procedures of what his job entailed, from getting the train to parking it, swapping in and out cars along the routes, passing, sidings, and safety. In 1986, the rules were in the US that if you had a caboose run with a third person (and there were still cross-country long hauls that did), the conductor in the caboose had just as much right and responsibility to pay attention to the signals and act. In the case of this train, the caboose SHOULD have had a log sheet to fill out line markers. Front end and caboose logs should have matched to dispatch showing what the signals were and where. So, in the case of this train, the conductor should've had the radio contact from the head on their signal as well as a log entry for when he passed the corresponding signal and what it read for him. In the case of 3 green, no problem. Yellow/Red even the conductor should've been paying attention to the sounds of cars going slower. If they didn't, he could set that rear brake to begin slowdown. It was not an all or nothing. But major red flag, if there's not a response from head on a radio call, the conductor had the responsibility to full brake. The moment he passed 1 yellow 2 red, he should've pulled full brake. EITHER of those two was in the rulebook. A train as long as this, the conductor should not have any more than a crawl speed at 3 red as the train relaxes into stopped. The dispatchers and higher ups drilled it into dad, pull that brake and ride it to stop. It's better to clean up the paperwork for a bad stop than it is to have to clean up dozens of corpses or tons of twisted train.
@@sommebuddythat is the perfect statement. We have foamers that think they know everything and when they get hired and actually start doing the job they quickly realize that they made a mistake thinking the job is 'easy' and most quit shortly thereafter
This happened in 1986 and it is driving me crazy. You can just run red lights in Canada without anything happening? Germany has had a security system in place since the early 30s to prevent just that. Magnets along the sides of the rails would interact with your train depending on the signal passed. A red signal would immediately empty your air hoses and force the train to a halt.
Automatic systems need heavy maintenence to make sure they work when they are needed, Canada and the US have too much track in the middle of nowhere for that to be viable, our main thing is brake systems in the trains that communicate with the switches
Care to explain a little further? In the video above, nothing happened when they ran the red light. Collision was inevitable. No safety systems as far as I could tell.@@DudleyDoright-ru2ch
Not sure what you meant by nothing happened? An alarm goes off in the dispatchers office, unfortunately there was no time for anyone to react. @@HanseLok9495
I was a railroad freight and passenger conductor for 41 years, after starting with Penn Central in 1973. I retired in 2014 after working with the local commuter rail service in Philadelphia, Pa. and surrounding suburbs. My opinion after seeing this is the crew was asleep. But, on the other hand, during that period of time the railroad had unbelievable work schedules for the crews that were basically inhumane. I worked many years on what is called an extra list, where you were on call 24/7, seven days a week. When you were called, you had to be at your assignment in 2 hours. Now, that I am retired, I feel totally blessed to have survived that lengthy career and still be here. Also, to be never involved in any major catastrophes, but saw plenty. In addition, was a conductor on many "wreck trains" that were sent out to begin cleaning up huge wrecks. Also, saw many dead bodies from rail crossing accidents and suicides. One thing I did notice about this catastrophe that is missing, is a fail-safe option , that was prevalent at all sidings we had that lead out to a main line track. It was called a derail or split rail. It was a device that would be actuated, if the signal at the siding was all red. If the freight train went through a red signal illegally, the device would have derailed the whole freight train before entering the main line. It is possible the passenger train might have encountered some derailed cars, but nothing like a head on collision. Also, the engineer of the passenger train could have seen this in advance, initiated braking and lessen the catastrophe. Another thing I would like to add is when my career started, the railroad was very regimented like the military and things usually ran great. But, as time went on and heavy politics and especially the corporate mentality took over, things went downhill bad. Corners started being cut big time, in all areas, to provide a better profit for stockholders. We all know that story in all aspects of our lives. It is my belief, if history went different, we would have railroads and public transportation that would rival the systems they have in Japan and Europe. But, our leaders, who we have put in office for many, many decades, have created what we have today. Is it good, or not, and only you can answer.
My brother who worked for CN and lived in that area told me the guy in the engine and caboose were fast asleep. He talked to the train crews often and just about all the time they were running on little to no sleep. What happened was when another train is coming in their direction they are supposed to pull over into a switch track or off the main track. So they get a call out letting them know they need to pull off by a certain time. The problem is the crew was fast asleep and didn't hear the call. The train was in automatic cruise control. I was out to Cadium south of Hinton a couple of times where my brother lived. On those 2 times there was a derailment. The top officials kept it quiet and never reported it so the news networks never heard about it. Lots of derailments never get reported through the year. My brother had a free pass to ride anywhere in Canada and told me there isn't a mile of safe track anywhere in Canada he would feel safe on a train. He said this because he inspected track all the time and had to deal with engineers in Edmonton who wouldn't give him approval unless the track might cause a derailment. These morons in charge can't even fix a track because they don't know how. Also they are way under staffed. My brother had to inspect track 300 miles in both directions by himself. He said it was insane for him to inspect that much track by himself. By time you do cover it he just started all over again. No way he could find all the bad track so he retired early and was really happy to get out.
them falling asleep doesnt explain them communicating just as they saw the first slow light then purposefully speeding up makes no sense soms not right
@@roman-om2fh There was no "purposefully speeding up" lol going down hill with millions of pounds of train will accelerate by itself. Dudes were asleep so the throttle was still set at whatever it was before. It will maintain its speed or speed up even with them sleeping. No one decided to shove it to the all and go full throttle to "purposefully" speed up the train.
There’s no question that the freight crew was asleep at the “wheel”, or in this case, the controls of their train. Other radio operators never heard the conductor in the caboose make any calls. They were operating on very little sleep and were on schedules that didn’t have any kind of regularity (as attested by the sleep expert). And while labor laws may *state* that the minimum time between scheduled shifts is 8 hours, that doesn’t mean 8 hours of sleep. I bussed in restaurants in high school and had one schedule me to close on one Saturday night until 12:30AM and return at 8:30 AM the “following day”. That 8 hour “break” obviously included my dad picking me up from work, taking us home, getting ready for bed, sleeping, waking, getting ready for work again, eating some breakfast, getting driven back to work and clocking in. Obviously I didn’t get 8 hours of sleep. And that was *scheduled* shifts. The manager had chosen to seat a dinner party literally minutes before we were supposed to close the dining room and those bastards hung around for more than 2 hours. I did NOT clock out at 12:30. It was at least 15 minutes later. I was 16 at the time.
I quit a job at Rail America (now G&W) job in the early 2000s because of that supposed 8 hours off rule. Often times we would dog, then have to wait for a limo to take us back to our terminal, finish our paper work, THEN drive back home. No one falls asleep the second they get home, but I was coming damn close to it on the job. Finally told them I'd had enough, told them why and we parted ways. It wasn't worth losing a limb or worse because I was tired. Went on to work industrial railroad jobs and was both safer and happier for it.
@@sommebuddy No, because they may have been fired if they did. The true issue is not with them, but with no safety systems interacting with the train. By the 1980s there should have been automatic train control that automatically stopped the freight train and alerted dispatching of a wrong train position. The crew on board is to blame for their stupidity, the Canadian government & railway company are to blame for the deaths.
I'm wondering if the guy in the caboose was dreaming that he was awake and working. That would explain why he had vivid memories of doing things that still didn't make sense.
@@nanderv Even in USSR by that time, train would automaticly stop after passing red light. Crew would need to actively override the system in order to run through red light. Despite that, however, in Russian (2004, so no longer USSR) case of runaway train, they had to cut power to overheads (it happened on one of the more important lines, therefore obviously superheavy freight train was running under electric locomotive rather than diesel) in order to stop it.
"He was a fighter pilot and therefore had a lot of experience with trains: he blew up 36 trains in france" I lolled, very relevant experience with regards to trains :D
Our current American train crews are being overworked just like their Canadian counterparts from 30+ years ago. Crews are pulling 20-hour shifts and don't get home rest for weeks or months. American derailments are at highs not seen in decades.
My experince is that the crew goes on overtime after 8 hours, and after 12 hours is "dead" and the train stops until a new crew comes aboard. Sometimes this results in the train going dead 1/2 mile from the station, but the 12 hour rule is iron, so that there can not be an accusation that the crew was inattentive because they were tired. Likewise, when a motor vehicle is hit or drives into the side of a train the crew goes for immediate drug and alcohol testing, to remove any possibility that they were under the influence of drugs or booze. CYA = Cover Your Ass. (also Corporate Ass)
@@Dutch_Uncle Given GPS and communication, the dispatch should / must be able to anticipate when and where a crew and train should be so that the replacement crew is there and available to get to the location. Isn't the vehicle in that instance called a Crumy . Not sure of the spelling.
@@kerrryschultz2904 In the US there are also the 8 and 12 hour rules. Overtime starts after 8 hours, and after 12 horus the crew is "dead." The train stops and waits for a new crew. This removes any possibile allegation that the crew was tired and thus responisble for an accident. The "dead" terminology can be misunderstood by non-railroaders. A dispatcher called a new spouse and told her that her husband had died. She then began funeral preparations and was shocked when he walked in the the door the next day.
YES! Aww man, Mayday Air disaster episodes are great, but I think the other Mayday episodes are underrated. I think I just like the series. We get an inside view of how a lot of things work and it's super interesting.
I agree! But my daughter may disagree because when she’s traveling and doesn’t call to tell me she made it safe, I start blowing up her phone. She was on New Year’s Day. What pops up on my page? “Holiday air craft disasters!” 😂😂😂😂
Just 2 years shy of the 40TH Anniversary RIP to the victims especially the mother and child, and the Brave Husband who went back to Die by his Wife’s side that got me because that’s exactly what I would do if my Wife and I were in that Situation without her I don’t know what I would do anymore! 😢❤
Thats like when you wake up in the morning to get ready for work or school only to realize you’re actually still in bed…. Thats definitely happened to me. Sometimes it messes with your memory
I had a dream where I was working all day, don't remember anything standing out and was excited to be off for tomorrow. I was 16 at the time and working a lot of hours prior to this. I went home and went to sleep so I can have an early start after a hectic week of working in the mall... Next thing I know, my mom wakes me up to go to work and I told her I was off, and she gave me a confused look and said it was Friday, not Saturday. I say there in confusion before I literally burst into tears and acted like a child of 7. It got bad enough that my mom realized I was burning myself out and that I legit had an entire work day in my dream and called work to tell them I needed time off for a couple of days. (Working summer time and worked with mom at the job) If the guy was lying or not, I understand the thought process, especially if he thought he was working when in reality he was sleeping.
I don't think anyone who has never worked night shifts can really appreciate what it's like. First thing you learn is that you can't just turn your body off at will. Having 8 hours between shifts does not translate into anything even approximating 8 hours of sleep!
I found it was possible to fall asleep pushing a floor machine when I accidentally nodded off one night and slammed into an end cap in a grocery store. I had no idea that was even possible. Working nights I never felt rested. It took about 2 weeks working days before I was right again
Gotta wait for pass out time, I used to work night shift a long time ago, and I still have to wait till I get tired before I even look at a bed - Never had a normal sleep schedule since.
We sure haven’t got train service that serves hot meals and beverages anymore.. so many trains have been cancelled; it isn’t uncommon for there only to be two trains going between large cities per day, instead of the 4-6 that used go between those cities daily. It makes going to concerts/theatre shows in the larger city difficult, if you don’t want to drive or haven’t got a car.
so your concerns are not about the system or crews, how there may be wrongs or abuse, but how its hard to get to concerts because the sch has changed. nice to see you have your priorities straight
@@rogerw-interested What if I told you both is possible? The infrastructure shown in the video is shoddy. No safety systems and the typical passing-loop-single-track bullshit that chokes every rail line to a near-halt.
I admire the people who survived this train wreck, and gave us the inside view of this tragedy! May God bless you, and all the people who died or were hurt! Thank You for this experience of how some of these people survived! I personally remember when this happened, as I'm 68 and I watched the news every day! I hope that the injured have healed, and I hope that the people who lost the ones they love, have found peace! God bless all!
God bless TH-cam (in spite of its myriad of faults) for making so much available to everyone. Also, more importantly, God bless the survivors and save the victims. ❤
This was so much more horrific than I expected. Air disasters are at least pretty quick… this sounds like the victims were suffering for a very long time
They are. I live in small size Denmark. And I lived through a trainwreck, albeit a very small and lucky one compared to this wreck because there were no fatalities and only minor injuries to the 20 some passengers and crew in all. I got of with just a sore neck and a sprained wrist and knee and didn't even have to report in sick, although I did have to stay away from work that day due to being treated and providing testimony and all that. Oh, and the wreck was a single train derailment at relatively low speed since we had just left a station. But the point is that there is a lot of confusion in those situations. Both on the train and off. I know from the inquiry that the initial 112 calls stated that the accident was at the station. Not some kilometers from it as was actually the case. And that meant the rescue services were sent to the wrong location, only to find nothing. Had they been given the correct location, they could have been there in about 7 minutes from the word go. 7 minutes is still an awfully long time when you are in a train wreck and not really sure how bad your injuries are because of shock and confusion and pain and the similar set of feelings and emotions in everybody else around you initially. Not to mention the 45 minutes response time mentioned in this disaster. Also, despite the enormous forces employed in this disaster, there are always people who are surviving at least initially and even some who are not even injured by some strange miracle. And yet even some of those uninjured initially may end up on the casualty list because they are trapped and unable to move and they end up burning or asphyxiated to death from toxic fumes. And that is the major difference from a plane crashing into the ground at more than 500 mph. On that plane, death is total and instantaneous because everything is ripped apart due to the aircraft structure not having anything approaching the strength of a rail car and even a rail car would be totally anihilated at 500 mph collision force. And then, as in this disaster, the ones who did manage to survive through it all, had to wait 45 minutes for the first responders to arrive, meaning that after the triage and initial on the scene first aid and treatment, they would almost certainly have passed the hour since the accident before even getting transported to hospital. Some of them most likely having to wait more than 2 or perhaps even 3 hours to be transported because there is no rescue station within a foreseeable distance that will have 71 ambulances and rescue heloes available. Not even combined. We are most likely talking some 10 ambulances and maybe 3 heloes at best. And for some of them arriving later at hospital, they might even have to wait for treatment there too as this was in the middle of the rockies and with only small towns and the nearest hospital probably being a small one which would be totally overwhelmed by the sudden arrival of so many injured passengers all at once. The other passengers and I in the wreck I experienced would only have to wait for 15 minutes in all before being cared for by first responders, and the hospital we were transported to was a major one which had no difficulties in handling the influx of some 20 people with no life or disability threatening injuries. And having only the injuries mentioned, I was one of the last people to be hauled out of the crash site, and I was being treated by doctors within half an hour of the derailment. And the reason I (and the other passengers as well) got any injuries at all was because I was litterally catapulted straight up, banging my head against the luggage rack which accounts for the sore neck, and then slammed to the floor because the wagon was bouncing so heavily. Had it just left the tracks and rolled to a stop, I would probably still have ended up on the floor, but with only a hurt pride from sitting down rather unceremonially and undesired. (Imagine that last image. 🤣) So yeah. We are talking massive time phrames here, compared to the instant end in a planecrash.
@@NiklasVWWV Afraid not. It was way before internet got really up and running, and due to only relatively light injuries on a local stretch of private railroad, it only hit the local newspapers. I didn't even see a mention of it in the tv news that evening. Not big enough in scale and casualties.
Fatigue is a big issue for train crews. I’ve been with a Class I for three years. We have PTC (positive train control) that prevents us from overspeed, running reds, blasting through MOW crews, and initiating penalty brakes for violations. PTC also reads out warning distances and stopping distances combined with upcoming signal indication blocks. PTC is not fool proof and one terrifying thing I’ve seen with PTC is some engineers lay back, barely awake, PTC is controlling the throttle via auto throttle, and the only thing keeping them awake slightly is the locomotive alerter (dead man switch) that if not pressed triggers a penalty brake application/PCS open (fellow engineers and conductors will be familiar with this) As a conductor on road crew boards in the south west there has been a few trips where I’ve been completely DAZED & sleepy. It’s been bad where I’ve fallen asleep when we get routed into a siding to let trains pass; where my engineer and I sat at a CLEAR green signal for 30 mins from exhaustion. We are governed by federal hours of service 12 hours max per shift & 276 hours a month but being on call with 10 hour minimum rest breaks - it’s impossible to catch sleep good constantly. I’m happy I got off road boards for a switch yard job but it’s still grueling work.
yup and CN wants to violate this with PSR and bring Boomer Railroading back. Train Crews are Not Expendable! You get 8 hours rest before you step in that cab don't go out fatigued.
Just gonna point out, US trains frequently don't have brakemen anymore, just engineers and conductors, and the railways are trying to get rid of the conductor position as well, to save on labor costs. Practically begging for more accidents to happen.
Canada briefly allowed single person operation for short line service, but then Lac Megantic happened. That crash makes my blood run cold. I hired on as a brakeman just as cabeese were done away with, and 3-man crews were becoming 2-man crews. I got furloughed and never went back for various reasons. I still miss the job and regret changing careers. It was a tough, nasty job with tough, hard people back then and I wanted a job where I wasn't riding the side of a boxcar over freeways during ice storms or wrapping on 100 handbrakes in 100° heat. I shoulda stayed!
when the Railroads switched from steam to diesel The union said each locomotive had to have a person in it. The railroads got around that by creating those cab less B units.
I can imagine the rhythmic sounds and low tones experienced regularly putting the men to sleep. Perhaps switching operators to different lines,and routes,as a company practice, would help keep the operators more alert.
Thank you for covering this tragedy so well. I believe you covered the subject in a good way being honest and thorough resulting, I believe, in important changes being made.
I love trains with a passion.I once moved into a home just feets away from the train track.I love watching the Amtrak rolled across my kitchen window as I enjoyed my countryside breakfast every morning..👍😁
The woman described the motion of a train as soporific. She got that right! I grew up next to a railroad and I would wait for the train to come at night so I could fall asleep.
The "dead man's peddle" is a weird fix... For starters, it is very possible to fall asleep "stiff", locked into a certain position, so in this case the peddle wouldn't work. But worse than that, I personally have found that the more pressure I have on the bottoms of my feet, the more tired I feel.... Maybe that's just a me thing... But I would be surprised if that were the case... Leaving this peddle not only ineffective but, in some cases, actually making it worse
Thankfully the dead man’s pedal is outdated now too. Nowadays the engineer has to either change one of the controls (throttle, brake, etc) or silence an alarm every 30 seconds or so
The “dead man’s peddle” I had when operating, every 5 seconds you had to either press or decompress before the alarm sounded. As a second option, the master control could also be pressed or decompressed every 5 seconds.
I grew up in a small railroad town in the Mojave Desert. Aside from two highways meeting in the middle of town, three different rail companies ran through the area- Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, and Trona Railway. With a population of only 3,000 our little town seemed busier than most metropolitan cities. Man, as a kid I always dreamed of being a locomotive engineer. When I watched the trains blast through town, I always thought that being an engineer would be the grooviest job a guy could have. Trains still used a caboose back then, so I thought that if I couldn't be an engineer, I wouldn't mind being the dude that rides in the caboose. I knew a few guys that worked for the railroad so when I graduated high school in 1982, I learned that getting a job with the railroad at that time was nearly impossible. I applied with both Santa Fe and Southern Pacific and think my applications went straight into the trash can. I never heard anything from either one. It was hard getting a job anywhere in the early 1980s. I took a job as a truck mechanic until something better came along. 42 years later nothing better came along. lol
Two "tells", from Smith, that I saw were... • Touching his ear. • Suddenly drinking water like he's parched. Both mannerisms are known to happen when someone is lying.
Yup. Or at least trying to cover up for not dumping the pipe when he couldn't reach the head end. Those Motorola lunchbox radios are bulletproof and so long as the battery is charged they'll work if the right channel is selected. 11000' of train is nothing for those. I used to use them all the time as a brakie, before he got HTs.
Having been hit by a train before, this hits close to home. In 1990 my father was rushing to a hockey game and he didn't see or hear the train whistle and we got hit by the side of the train, we got lucky, as on that same road 6 other people were hit and killed. After that CN installed a better light system. Whether it be lack of sleep or distraction, it will cause serious issues and if you are unlucky it may harm others. My condolences to the victims of the wreck and even to the conductors, because they themselves were being overworked and not getting the adequate sleep that they needed. If I am not mistaken, I believe CN now operates where it is 2-weeks on nights and 2-weeks on days? I could be wrong, if I am someone please correct me.
So not one single question as to the working conditions train crews are exposed to and the effects on their ability to function? You've got to be pushing people well past the limit for an entire crew to fall asleep or not be properly functioning. But in the corporate world, that is completely left out of the discussion.
no one should be allowed to operate a freight train with only a few hours sleep, because blaming them for all being asleep, doesn't make the railroad look good!
in fairness via couldnt have prevented it, my question tho is wheres the talk of the dispatchers? surely to god they have a system to say "oi something just ran a red pay attention" cause atleast then dispatcher coulve called the crew somehow and told them to hit the air, or told the via to try and throw throw it in reverse.
The Via hogger probably dumped it as soon as he saw what was going on, but that wouldn't have done a damned thing and was thus not relevant to the event.
By the time VIA saw CN, nothing could have been done to prevent or even mitigate that accident. I imagine the engineers on VIA were pulling every lever, flipping every switch, and pushing every button they could as a last ditch effort. Unfortunately the end result was inevitable.
back in the early 80s my mum and I took a train through the Canadian Rockies. We got a sleeper car and we were one car from the observation car. It was so wonderful. We had formal meals in the dining car with real metal silverware and a waiter. My mum wanted to have me experience this because she had many fond memories of riding by train growing up in Saskatchwan. (I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio). It is really a great journey if you can do it. IF it is n't a shadow of what it used to me. My mum told me that they actually had REAL SILVER... we didn't but it was metal.. not cheap plastic microwaved stuff.
In most cases yes, but nowadays general safety rules may reach the point where there's no risk to anyone if even "something" isn't "looked into". There are logical conclusions.
I was on the Highway Coming From Grand Cache going to Edmonton when the trains collide! The impact sent me off the highway, I was able to get the van under control. I was going to stop at Nojack for gas, but when I got there it was busy with police and Helcopters. went straight through to Edmonton. Scary!!
But it’s perfectly okay for a passenger vehicle driver to work a full 8-16 hours shift and then be able to get into their vehicle and drive anywhere they like, huh? Never mind the fact that passenger vehicle outnumber commercial vehicles of any type nearly 100:1. Never mind the fact that operators of commercial vehicles are already regulated to the hilt, yet all that’s needed to be permitted to operate passenger vehicles is a birth certificate and $75.
In the US and Canada, you are not allowed to operate the train after 12 hours on duty except in very rare circumstances and I believe a fine is levied on the RR each time. Canada recently limited employees to 196 hours per rolling 28 days (that's pretty stringent; here in the US it's 276 hours per calendar month), along with weekly/yearly caps and some other requirements.
@@Trashman702craig makes strong points, when you look at the numbers, way more car drivers driving tired than commercial drivers and statistics back that up
Even with such limits on maximum hours, management finds a way to twist them. At the time of this train accident, I was a co-pilot in a tiny air company, operating one leased twin turboprop engine airplane, Hawker-Siddeley HS-748. We were three 2-strong flight crew. Each flight crew worked one week, rested two. On regular workdays, I worked by daytime. But weekends were different and varied and included long night- and daytime flight legs and, after weekend flights, I had to wake up at 1 am on Monday to be ready at 2 am at the airport to inspect and prepare the plane, airborne at 3 am, to be home for two week's rest at noon. A much necessary rest because, during the weekend, I had been working longer than 16 hours a day (16 hours-long strict flying time, plus additional hours to/from airports, plus airplane inspections and preparations, plus next-leg wait, plus any delay time lapses) and the law dictated a maximum total worktime of 16 hours if followed by immediate full rest period, so total 16 hours worktime was written down, the extra four or five hours forgotten. And we couldn't complain: if the company didn't work this way, it couldn't afford to pay our meager salaries (60 workers). Yes, a meager salary I earned, comparable to that of a taxi driver. Of course, Captains earned more, but not much more. Many a time, we pilots were asked to scratch our pockets to complete fuel payment, a loan refunded after flight tickets had been sold. Not a very profitable company, but at least I had a job and accumulated flight experience. There weren't many pilot job opportunities those years.
Oh... so *many* things wrong here: no positive train control; no active cognition alarms (not just a deadman's pedal); insufficient sleep afforded the crew; caboose didn't apply emergency brake, etc.
Interesting/informative/entertaining. Special thanks to surviving guest speakers. Sharing experiences of this disaster. Making this presentation more authentic and possible. Once again as always the 1st responders came to the rescue-!!!.😉
@@pamsmith1665 absolutely. They did this daily, this time they just didn't wake up in time. They knew it was a long empty stretch of track with no crossing. That whole crew was asleep at the same time. There are other accidents with sleeping crews being the direct cause. Working for the railroad is extremely difficult even for the best men.
There was only one conductor and he was in the van, where he was supposed to be. It was the Locomotive Engineer and the Brakeman on the head end. I have no doubt it was fatigue. Ostensibly there are always two crewmembers on the lead locomotive for no other reason that to catch the signals and confirm what they saw. The freight would have had a clear-to-stop (Approach signal in U.S. terminology), meaning they can take the hole and know that the exit home signal would be at danger. Not just that, but the signal before it would probably have been an advanced clear to stop. Neither crewmember caught any of the signals involved. Why the conductor didn't dump the pipe is the mystery here, and something he'll live with for the rest of his life.
@@pamsmith1665thete was a 3 man crew conductor, brakeman, and engineer. Sleep def was a factor, the brakeman had flu too. Lots of things contributed to this accident.
I've probably commented on this before, but in 1986, Australia and most other countries had been, and still are using the 90 second switch mentioned towards the end of this movie. Unless pressed every 90 seconds or less, the unit switches off the entire locomotive and applies the emergency brakes. Keeping one's foot pressed on a pedal for hours on end is American technology at it's absolute worst.
Modern Alerter systems on our newer units (Atleast here in the States) Arnt a save all end all thing either, and can very easily be bypassed. I'm not sure about the new ES44's or the newer SD70's, But most alerter reset buttons I'm use too can be "Over riden" by simply duck taping the reset plunger down...
@@joshmeister4449that’s weird. If you hold down the reset button too long where I worked (New Zealand) you go into emergency. Then it’s time for coffee withe boss.
With the health problems that conductor had he wouldn't be allowed to drive a semi truck in America. His high Blood Pressure alone wouldn't allow him to drive. I believe 3 of his health problems made him not eligible to drive without even counting anything to do with alcohol.
My dad worked for CN when this happened and had to go to the crash. He was traumatized! My mom worked the phones calling loved ones of the people that died. 😢
I knew a CN train guy that had such bad PTSD from years of animals and suicidal people sometimes with others being killed in front of him. He had a $700k condo in 80s and had it painted flat black no colour inside at all. Sad story.
I'm a student and work a part-time job at an optometrist's practice. It's a pretty simple job and the hours are fairly standard. Even with my simple job, 3.5 hours of sleep would definitely take a toll on me. During my exam period, I sometimes get 1-2 hrs of sleep and it completely crushes me at work. I make easy mistakes, zone out mid-conversation and lose track of my tasks. My manager understands our predicament as most of us working there are juggling work and studies but even then he stresses to us the importance of rest, not just for our own health but so we can perform our job with focus. I can't imagine, for the life of me, that someone could think it's alright to have someone drive a massive freight train, during the early hours of the day, on just 3.5 hours of sleep. Even if you don't have a single care about your employees, I can't think of a worse business decision than to let an exhausted man take control of my massive train worth millions. This isn't just negligence, it's pure stupidity to the highest degree.
What? Train conductor at CN here. Not sure where you got your information, but trainmen are most definitely still on call 24/7 lol. It was actually Transport Canada regulations in 2023 that forced the railways to give trainmen 12 hours mandatory rest between shifts. Before that there were people working 2 shifts a day up to 18 hours.
This is so sad! Especially when all you have to to stay awake is keep your mouth moving. That's right, I drove semi for 13 years and I found out early in my driving career, I was very tired one night going from Southern Ill to Madison Wis. I had already had a very long day. Another driver seen I was all over the road, he knew how to stop it. This Great Truck Driver taught me that if you keep your mouth moving you will not fall asleep driving. I started buying up bags of popcorn to keep me awake, it worked for the rest of my driving career!!!
The real danger in the railways is switching to auto pilot mode. You are driving but your mind is elsewhere. In this state it so easy to miss a caution signal and by the time you see the danger it's too late. These trains do not stop in a hurry even with the emergency break. I was sitting in a railway loop yesterday. I was staring at the red signal as i thought of this accident. It can be so easy to do with just AWS. You know when you are driving truck and you suddenly notice you can't remember the last few miles? That the mindset i am talking about.
Most railways are pretty good with fatigue today. Lesson learned in blood. If i am tired i will go home. The other day i was exhausted from my shifts changing from nights to day. I am nocturnal and they had me starting at 10am. I started my shift ok but after my lunch break i was exhausted. I called them up and said i am going home. You do not drive trains when tired/fatigued. If you are tired you do not take a train out.
Yeah, no! these guys were suffering sleep deprivation. That's a bit more than your average drowsiness. When you say "all you had to do is keep your mouth moving", you're talking about fighting off drowsiness. These guys were exhausted, not to mention one of them had the flu.
Thank you for this one! Wow this was terrible, and yet so preventable. The saddest thing is, we can see this happening again as companies/corporations strive for speed and profits over peoples lives
IMO, the VIA crew didn't even noticed the train in front with the high cab they were ridding. And they never braked either according to the testimony of the VIA passengers who survived the crash. The one thing that is not even thought about is temperature: was there a fog that day thick enough to hide the lights on both side and even the light of an opposing train?
Being a truck driver I only know too well about extreme fatigue yet being expected to work. If you don't do it your down the road and they'll find a new victim believe me!!!
Right! I mean it’s a good thing but these are so fascinating. Personally, I like to see the changes that were made because of it. Some of the causes are so minuscule I can’t wrap my head around it. There has been horrific loss to get to where we are today.
@@MzAmberJade I thought all train tracks were level before I watched this. I figured that was the reason for tunnels, etc. I doubt I’m alone - a 2% incline is considered very steep but difficult or impossible to notice with the human eye
@@viki19910 I saw that on the news earlier today and thought of this. I doubt India has the same safety standards as most western countries but, statistically speaking, rail travel is safer than driving a car by a large margin.
havnt finnished watching but my theory is that they fell asleep in the front. the guy in the back seem like he was also sleeping. then he lied about calling up the front. and not getting through. or he wasnt lieing. and he couldnt get ahold anyone bc they were asleep. you have to remember. that they only got 3 hours of sleep.
@@pamsmith1665 So why would he lie? Obviously because he was actually asleep. But you just said they were used to the short sleep time. So if that argument doesn't work (according to you) for the people up front, why does it work for the guy at the back? Most likely they were all asleep. So he lied, but they likely would not have answered even if he did call.
I worked for CN Rail in the Edmonton motive power shop at the time this accident occurred. It was not uncommon to see locomotives with the deadman pedal held down by a flag pole.
MayDay: Air Disaster "Oh it's not good enough?!" *shoves your face into the content* MayDay: Air Disaster "All the hard work I do around here ungrateful ass" *swills beer from recliner while wearing a wife beater undershirt with stains*
In today’s railroad industry, cabooses are few and far between and occasionally used, thus mitigating the brakeman’s position and job on the freight train. In my belief, train crews should have a minimum of 8 required hours of sleep at night before coming on next day and taking control of a freight train from a dead stop, which is a rule outright ignored by CN 413’s incoming and outgoing crews on February 8, 1986. Crew changes are now primarily performed on sidings without other trains in the area and without ignorance toward the rules written in the blood of the crews killed in years long in the past and crews killed in more recent train crashes as well as the blood of the passengers, motorists, livestock, and passersby killed in more recent train crashes. These tragic accidents have taken the lives of people and animals and destroyed billions of dollars and equivalent and not so equivalent currencies worth of equipment around the world. This equipment includes radios, locomotives, freight cars, passenger coaches, and of course automobiles and commercial vehicles.
Hot swapping still happens today and will always happen from time to time. Also if someone gets hit by a train (outside of another train) it's never the trains fault
that 3 year old being killed hits right in the gut worse than anything. i have a son his age that looks eerily similar to him, i fear loosing my kids more than anything.
There are plenty of culprits in this accident, but the Number One culprit IMO is CN itself. To set up horrendous work schedules like they did guaranteed an accident, it was just a matter of time. Beyond that, the conductor's behavior was clearly criminal, and he should have been prosecuted for manslaughter. He obviously lied under oath.
He could have been prosecuted, the problem is there is no way to prove whether or not anyone had actually fallen asleep. I suppose they could have possibly gotten him for not pulling the emergency break though.
Hi 👋 I remember this.... I lived in Calgary Alberta and was 16 when this happened. My friends father was a maintenance engineer....😢😢.... I heard many stories just like this....
Totally a joke, as I know this is indeed a Mayday episode, but immediately when I saw this title i was like, "yes, my favorite 'air disaster'... a train."
Dang !! It's eerie this was _just_ recommended by TH-cam today. Just got home from riding the VIA Canadian from Toronto to Vancouver *_today_* ... including through the same section between Jasper and Edmonton. I can tell you VIA instructs all passengers on how to break the windows to escape in an emergency, right after boarding the train, and the location of the hammers to do so. There are also latched exit windows in the dome cars. What James Heyd stated at 8:0 is very true, traveling long distance by train becomes a "very small community", in close proximity were you get to meet and interact with this same group of people for days. It is still like this today. What a horrific disaster.
@@Luxisious I was in my teens when this event happened, and was living in eastern Canada at the time, so my memory of this event is vague. I slept well in the cabin on the train, but I don't think I would have if I had watched this video prior to the trip on the Via Canadian. Still very odd timing for this video to be recommended, the day I got back. I wasn't even looking at videos related to trains or disasters, just financial news reports.
You really never know what could have really happened. Freak things can happen. Even testing wouldn't show these factors. But it is more likely the guy in the cabose was asleep. And that something happened up front. Medical problems or they were fatigue and not as aware as they should be.
I think if the conductor had called out so many times without taking action, especially blowing through the signals, that he should have been held responsible for a major failure. It ultimately rests on CN, however
CN was definitely the lead blame here. Having your crew sleep 3 -5 hours before the next train, you're just asking for something to happen. My condolences to all the ppl that lost loved ones on this accident
10 hours min between shifts here!
You mean the alt-left Communist Labor Union is to blame.
Wayne smith is to be blamed
I've worked jobs like that. I never understand how they thought that was a good idea.
@@AlphaCentCom greed.
I’m a retired Kiwirail engineer. After this crash workers and management here began a long (and ongoing) process to improve our ways of working. We operated much like CN and thought we were safe. It was a terrifying wake up call.
The trucking industry had disastrous wrecks. Before strict regulations were slowly implemented.
idk this doesnt make sense it showed they radios eachother at the slow down light meaning they were awake n conscious of needing to slow then stop if conductor had a stroke y did he speed up perhaps he sped up accidentpy during stroke n the assistant was asleep but y would the caboose op fall aslep just after radioing about the slow down signal seems very convenient .its ridiculous they dont have rail dispathcera watching the trains n there speed making sure to stay in contact of the trains n the proceadurea they should b taking n monitoring if there not n b able to tell other trains about it tbey should also have remote access to intervene
@@roman-om2fh It's a bit confusing the way they show it in the doc - the earlier convos seem to be about an earlier point in the journey, not the later signal they missed. As for the conductor's testimony later, it's generally believed he was uh. Lying. Because what he said really didn't make sense with the circumstances of the accident.
Reading about the accident, they had to stop at an earlier point to let other trains go by. But I guess between that stopping point and the next one, all three nodded off (or the engineer might have had a medical event, but the other two nodded off).
5 minutes in - Lack of sleep was DEFINITELY a factor.
sad part is thats still a very real and common issue
I will have to Agree and I seen this Episode Numerous Times too
@@Rocker-1234 Yes it is. Sadly not a whole lot was learned from this disaster.
the ratio of deaths/properly finished rounds with the trains is too high to be changed, if the current system, doesn't result into too many deaths, the companies will not change it sadly@@killman369547
Yup, at least we have ptc now@@Rocker-1234
man headbutts his way to victory and tells everyone to follow him. Absolute legend lol
That my friends, is the value of a Veteran. Other people yes, could also act and operate in times of stress, but we are trained to overcome and adapt. Cheers and hand-salute to all that are serving, and have served.
@@rossreed9974🫡 agreed
Typical Yorkshireman behaviour lost my grandfather recently he reminded me of him……..
Should have been on the honors list.
He should be written about in history books
A comment about these 3 railroaders that fell asleep. My Canadian cousin was in the airlines in the 1960's. He mentioned on a long night-time flight, all 3 had fallen asleep (pilot, co-pilot, and navigator). He woke up first, only the auto-pilot was flying. He shook the other guys, and things went back to normal. He said things like that happened rather often. It was a long time ago, my cousin has passed-on. But I remember the story. The load of airplane passengers would have gone crazy, if they knew.
In 1985 there was an air disaster in USSR (near near Uchkuduk, modern day Uzbekistan) that happened because all crew in the cockpit fall asleep. They woke up because of stick-shake (aircraft was going into stall so they got notification) but were too disoriented to react accordingly to situation. Airport they were flying out of was brand new, and most facilities were still under construction, including crew resting area. So while crew had enough time to rest, they didn't really get any proper sleep.
I am not sure but i think there are such checks in trains or /and signals and tracks to prevent disaster. There is a kind of autopilot on trains nowadays and I guess they stay in contact with the signals.
One of the major airlines had a flight that overflew its destination in Minnesota because the crew were asleep. They were over an hour past their landing time when the mistake was discovered.
@@ranjapi693How did the conductor miss the red signals?
@@ALuimes He was asleep too the whole time. that's why he didn't pull the emergency switch and that's why nobody else heard him on the radio. He's just lucky enough to survive And lie about it.
Well documented. The mixing of actual footage of the terrible accident with the mocked up collision was well done.
@Mrright87 what
(18:45) What a boss. He blows up 36 trains as a fighter pilot, but his greatest feat is blowing out a train window with his chrome dome.
Chrome dome sent me 😂😂😂
i think you mean bone dome.
LMFAO! Indeed what a boss!
Witnessed.
Dude is an absolute G. What a legend. Took a window out with his damn head to create an exit. 🤯
Any awards he wasn't given during his service he should have received for that single act of recklessly brave badassery.
This is exactly why it's so very important for for people who have jobs like this get their needed rest, I have no doubt in my mind that the crew in the CN train fell asleep. Laws are needed to make sure anyone with this kind of job only works 12hr shifts a a time and are required to go home and rest afterwards. RIP to all who were lost in this tragedy :( happened before I was even born.
Unfortunately it doesn't work out like that. Often we get off, have our 10 hours of rest, then sit around for another 12 hours waiting to get called for another train (which is a 12 hour shift). Now by the time you get off work you've been up for 24 hours. It's a horrific way to live and the truth that no one really wants to say out loud is that it's never going to change. New systems like Positive Train Control will certainly save lives but it doesn't address the underlying problem that we are always always always fatigued when running our trains.
My son works for CN and fatigue is a HUGE problem. They can be made to work well over 30 hours, this decided by people with CN office jobs who wouldn't ever agree to that for themselves. Insanity.
even if they weren't asleep, Fatigue can become very scary very quickly. With a certain level of exhaustion you can't properly react anymore even if you're "awake".
In America it is a federal rule,12hours total per shift. That includes any time sitting in the yard waiting to get permission from dispatch to leave yard.
@@catalayalafaye5337 Fatigue, lack of sleep, monotony and familiarity and a blasé attitude toward the job.
Former conductor here (CP, mid-1990s, based at Toronto Yard). This accident and its causes were taught to us in rules classes the first couple of days after getting hired. I didn't remember the details all that vividly until I watched this (plus it was over a decade before I hired on). Our rules instructor said that every rule in the book is written in blood, and here's why. No rest, bunkhouse culture, Rule G being a suggestion back in those days, etc. There are two crewmembers in the lead locomotive to observe and confirm signal indications and rule compliance, but when both crewmembers are on almost no sleep and/or sick that went out the window. The train would have passed an Advanced Clear To Stop signal, a Clear To Stop, and finally a Stop And Stay at a homeball exiting the siding, but the experienced Conductor, who would have known every twist and turn in that stretch to be qualified on it would have known to dump the pipe once he lost contact with the head end. He was lying like a rug at the hearing in my opinion.
Slander and innuendo.
@@DJ99777 You must be from management or the FRA/CTA.
@@PowerTrain611I was just having a laugh. I don’t know anything about it.
He was definitely lying. Either he fell asleep as well or he didn't want to put the engineers in the position of explaining why the emergency brake had to be activated in the caboose. Some macho comradery nonsense. He probably didn't believe something so serious could happen to him and his crew from crossing a red light; it's likely happened before. All in all, heavy negligence and incompetence.
More people have lost their jobs not pulling the emergency brake valve when they should have than the other way around. Rule 33 is one conductors sometimes have issues with. It takes guts to put the train into emergency, not to mention you actually need to recognize when it's needed and act without hesitation.
Rest in Peace to everyone who lost their life.
My dad was a railroader for 45 years. He had heard of all the violations on the books that mostly went uninvestigated and not dealt with by the "company". After I got out of my military service, he warned me to never, ever consider a career with the railroad if I valued my sanity, reputation, and my life.
I thought of it after military and talked to a few freight crews at a hotel they'd stay at overnight. Pretty much was told it was great decades ago, but that as younger people took over management with no actual rail experience that all they cared about was getting things done fasr as possible bypassing safety and saving money. Then supervisors would observe at a distance look for more senior guys doing things the way they wanted then firing them for bypassing safety like they wanted in order to hire guys they could pay less. The crews on trains were being forced to work longer hours with less sleep. Then several told me that the only way you max out your pension contributions is by being laid off or fired from multiple railroads as you're forced to bounce around. I figured uncertainty wasn't the career path I wanted. Also considered that it should be easy to introduce self driving trains.
railroad industry has changed. a lot install cameras and spy on workers.
My dad retired from ConRail in the US just prior to this accident. His job had been bought out. I remember times with him that, thinking back, should've been criminal. The crews had to do regular calls on the road, calls when they left or reached their stops, and they had to call back in to the dispatcher when they got home. Each crew was given an "out" order, meaning that if one railyard operated 25 crews, you had a rotation of those 25 crews being in various stages on the road or at home, the most rested crew was the next one to pick up the next train and take it. Dad wasn't so lucky to have a railyard with 25 crews. They had 8 at a good time. It was always enjoyable to hear him get 4th out or more. It meant a day or more at home. 2nd out or 3rd out meant stay at home by the phone so when dispatch called, you could head in to grab the next train. First out was you were on standby. Get everything packed you're taking with you, have your stuff in your call. When the dispatcher calls you, you have 1 hour to arrive at the railyard. That was the way of the Erie Lakawana, the Penn Central, and ConRail.
I remember towards the end of his working career, there were weeks where he'd get home, make the call to dispatch and find out he was already First out. Cabooses were gone, two positions eliminated. In the 70s, a crew was 4. You see in this video there was a caboose. When those were eliminated, the crews in the US were dropped to two at front only. But crews had already been dropped to 3 before the caboose was dropped. Dad worked in these 2-man crews a few months before retiring. Each route had a certain number of crews. Dad's route was Ft. Wayne (later Elkhart) to Cressline, Ohio or Lima, Ohio, and sometimes even further east. Rarely, his crew drew the short stick, as it was called, where they went all the way into Pennsylvania to drop the train. Those crews were gone for days, almost a full week.
I say all that as a preface. Dad taught me growing up all the signals, horns, and meanings along the tracks. He went through some of the procedures of what his job entailed, from getting the train to parking it, swapping in and out cars along the routes, passing, sidings, and safety. In 1986, the rules were in the US that if you had a caboose run with a third person (and there were still cross-country long hauls that did), the conductor in the caboose had just as much right and responsibility to pay attention to the signals and act. In the case of this train, the caboose SHOULD have had a log sheet to fill out line markers. Front end and caboose logs should have matched to dispatch showing what the signals were and where. So, in the case of this train, the conductor should've had the radio contact from the head on their signal as well as a log entry for when he passed the corresponding signal and what it read for him. In the case of 3 green, no problem. Yellow/Red even the conductor should've been paying attention to the sounds of cars going slower. If they didn't, he could set that rear brake to begin slowdown. It was not an all or nothing. But major red flag, if there's not a response from head on a radio call, the conductor had the responsibility to full brake. The moment he passed 1 yellow 2 red, he should've pulled full brake. EITHER of those two was in the rulebook. A train as long as this, the conductor should not have any more than a crawl speed at 3 red as the train relaxes into stopped. The dispatchers and higher ups drilled it into dad, pull that brake and ride it to stop. It's better to clean up the paperwork for a bad stop than it is to have to clean up dozens of corpses or tons of twisted train.
You had quite the education from your dad! Thank you for the great information.
Very interesting contribution. Particularly the part on the wearing out of the train crews.
It sounds like rr workers has the same crappy schedule and work environment as semi drivers. I hope they have better schedules now.
@@cindytinney7263Ehhhhh, a little? Maybe?
@@sommebuddythat is the perfect statement. We have foamers that think they know everything and when they get hired and actually start doing the job they quickly realize that they made a mistake thinking the job is 'easy' and most quit shortly thereafter
This happened in 1986 and it is driving me crazy. You can just run red lights in Canada without anything happening? Germany has had a security system in place since the early 30s to prevent just that. Magnets along the sides of the rails would interact with your train depending on the signal passed. A red signal would immediately empty your air hoses and force the train to a halt.
Automatic systems need heavy maintenence to make sure they work when they are needed, Canada and the US have too much track in the middle of nowhere for that to be viable, our main thing is brake systems in the trains that communicate with the switches
German engineering is truly special 🎉
No you cannot run reds without incident. Not that simple.
Care to explain a little further? In the video above, nothing happened when they ran the red light. Collision was inevitable. No safety systems as far as I could tell.@@DudleyDoright-ru2ch
Not sure what you meant by nothing happened? An alarm goes off in the dispatchers office, unfortunately there was no time for anyone to react. @@HanseLok9495
I was a railroad freight and passenger conductor for 41 years, after starting with Penn Central in 1973. I retired in 2014 after working with the local commuter rail service in Philadelphia, Pa. and surrounding suburbs. My opinion after seeing this is the crew was asleep. But, on the other hand, during that period of time the railroad had unbelievable work schedules for the crews that were basically inhumane. I worked many years on what is called an extra list, where you were on call 24/7, seven days a week. When you were called, you had to be at your assignment in 2 hours. Now, that I am retired, I feel totally blessed to have survived that lengthy career and still be here. Also, to be never involved in any major catastrophes, but saw plenty. In addition, was a conductor on many "wreck trains" that were sent out to begin cleaning up huge wrecks. Also, saw many dead bodies from rail crossing accidents and suicides.
One thing I did notice about this catastrophe that is missing, is a fail-safe option , that was prevalent at all sidings we had that lead out to a main line track. It was called a derail or split rail. It was a device that would be actuated, if the signal at the siding was all red. If the freight train went through a red signal illegally, the device would have derailed the whole freight train before entering the main line. It is possible the passenger train might have encountered some derailed cars, but nothing like a head on collision. Also, the engineer of the passenger train could have seen this in advance, initiated braking and lessen the catastrophe.
Another thing I would like to add is when my career started, the railroad was very regimented like the military and things usually ran great. But, as time went on and heavy politics and especially the corporate mentality took over, things went downhill bad. Corners started being cut big time, in all areas, to provide a better profit for stockholders. We all know that story in all aspects of our lives.
It is my belief, if history went different, we would have railroads and public transportation that would rival the systems they have in Japan and Europe. But, our leaders, who we have put in office for many, many decades, have created what we have today.
Is it good, or not, and only you can answer.
very long article
My brother works for CSX in Georgia. My sympathy goes out to all the families and friends of the victims.
My brother who worked for CN and lived in that area told me the guy in the engine and caboose were fast asleep. He talked to the train crews often and just about all the time they were running on little to no sleep. What happened was when another train is coming in their direction they are supposed to pull over into a switch track or off the main track. So they get a call out letting them know they need to pull off by a certain time. The problem is the crew was fast asleep and didn't hear the call. The train was in automatic cruise control. I was out to Cadium south of Hinton a couple of times where my brother lived. On those 2 times there was a derailment. The top officials kept it quiet and never reported it so the news networks never heard about it. Lots of derailments never get reported through the year. My brother had a free pass to ride anywhere in Canada and told me there isn't a mile of safe track anywhere in Canada he would feel safe on a train. He said this because he inspected track all the time and had to deal with engineers in Edmonton who wouldn't give him approval unless the track might cause a derailment. These morons in charge can't even fix a track because they don't know how. Also they are way under staffed. My brother had to inspect track 300 miles in both directions by himself. He said it was insane for him to inspect that much track by himself. By time you do cover it he just started all over again. No way he could find all the bad track so he retired early and was really happy to get out.
them falling asleep doesnt explain them communicating just as they saw the first slow light then purposefully speeding up makes no sense soms not right
@@roman-om2fh Soms not right is right. I suspect that the dramatization shows more communication than actually occurred. The guys were all asleep.
@@roman-om2fh There was no "purposefully speeding up" lol going down hill with millions of pounds of train will accelerate by itself. Dudes were asleep so the throttle was still set at whatever it was before. It will maintain its speed or speed up even with them sleeping. No one decided to shove it to the all and go full throttle to "purposefully" speed up the train.
I can listen to this guy narrate anything. He's good.
R.I.P to all those who sadly lost there life’s in this terrible accident.
There’s no question that the freight crew was asleep at the “wheel”, or in this case, the controls of their train. Other radio operators never heard the conductor in the caboose make any calls. They were operating on very little sleep and were on schedules that didn’t have any kind of regularity (as attested by the sleep expert).
And while labor laws may *state* that the minimum time between scheduled shifts is 8 hours, that doesn’t mean 8 hours of sleep. I bussed in restaurants in high school and had one schedule me to close on one Saturday night until 12:30AM and return at 8:30 AM the “following day”. That 8 hour “break” obviously included my dad picking me up from work, taking us home, getting ready for bed, sleeping, waking, getting ready for work again, eating some breakfast, getting driven back to work and clocking in. Obviously I didn’t get 8 hours of sleep. And that was *scheduled* shifts. The manager had chosen to seat a dinner party literally minutes before we were supposed to close the dining room and those bastards hung around for more than 2 hours. I did NOT clock out at 12:30. It was at least 15 minutes later. I was 16 at the time.
I quit a job at Rail America (now G&W) job in the early 2000s because of that supposed 8 hours off rule. Often times we would dog, then have to wait for a limo to take us back to our terminal, finish our paper work, THEN drive back home. No one falls asleep the second they get home, but I was coming damn close to it on the job. Finally told them I'd had enough, told them why and we parted ways. It wasn't worth losing a limb or worse because I was tired. Went on to work industrial railroad jobs and was both safer and happier for it.
And to this date really nothing has changed,except everyone is on the headend. This is from a retired CP conductor of 37 yrs.
@@sommebuddy No, because they may have been fired if they did.
The true issue is not with them, but with no safety systems interacting with the train. By the 1980s there should have been automatic train control that automatically stopped the freight train and alerted dispatching of a wrong train position.
The crew on board is to blame for their stupidity, the Canadian government & railway company are to blame for the deaths.
I'm wondering if the guy in the caboose was dreaming that he was awake and working. That would explain why he had vivid memories of doing things that still didn't make sense.
@@nanderv Even in USSR by that time, train would automaticly stop after passing red light. Crew would need to actively override the system in order to run through red light. Despite that, however, in Russian (2004, so no longer USSR) case of runaway train, they had to cut power to overheads (it happened on one of the more important lines, therefore obviously superheavy freight train was running under electric locomotive rather than diesel) in order to stop it.
Ive watched every single Air disaster episode so its great to have something different to watch but Rip to all the people who lost there lives♥
Still is old
It’s yet another reupload
Yup
It's very sad like the ttc one in 1995
"He was a fighter pilot and therefore had a lot of experience with trains: he blew up 36 trains in france"
I lolled, very relevant experience with regards to trains :D
Yeah, that was a pretty good comment.
I read this comment before I got to that part and thought to myself, there’s no way that’s a direct quote.
It is 😂
I dont know if I would consider that 'experience with trains' but I love that this show included it.
The best comment I have ever heard
Ironically, he was likely the only person involved who was experienced, let alone extensively so, with trains being blown up, on fire and trashed.
🤔😱
Our current American train crews are being overworked just like their Canadian counterparts from 30+ years ago. Crews are pulling 20-hour shifts and don't get home rest for weeks or months. American derailments are at highs not seen in decades.
John Oliver did an excellent episode on this
My experince is that the crew goes on overtime after 8 hours, and after 12 hours is "dead" and the train stops until a new crew comes aboard. Sometimes this results in the train going dead 1/2 mile from the station, but the 12 hour rule is iron, so that there can not be an accusation that the crew was inattentive because they were tired. Likewise, when a motor vehicle is hit or drives into the side of a train the crew goes for immediate drug and alcohol testing, to remove any possibility that they were under the influence of drugs or booze. CYA = Cover Your Ass. (also Corporate Ass)
@@Dutch_Uncle Given GPS and communication, the dispatch should / must be able to anticipate when and where a crew and train should be so that the replacement crew is there and available to get to the location. Isn't the vehicle in that instance called a Crumy . Not sure of the spelling.
@@kerrryschultz2904 In the US there are also the 8 and 12 hour rules. Overtime starts after 8 hours, and after 12 horus the crew is "dead." The train stops and waits for a new crew. This removes any possibile allegation that the crew was tired and thus responisble for an accident. The "dead" terminology can be misunderstood by non-railroaders. A dispatcher called a new spouse and told her that her husband had died. She then began funeral preparations and was shocked when he walked in the the door the next day.
@@kerrryschultz2904 "Crummy" can be a reference to a caboose, or in Burlington talk a "way car." Another Burlingtonism is "car toad" for carman.
Good story! I cried like a baby. Hour history is filled with loss but also heros from outta the blue. It's horrible yet heartwarming.
Wow!!! What a Story! I’ve actually never heard of this story before and my jaw was Dropped! Thank you for sharing this story 💯
YES! Aww man, Mayday Air disaster episodes are great, but I think the other Mayday episodes are underrated.
I think I just like the series. We get an inside view of how a lot of things work and it's super interesting.
i know! ... perfect level for sleeping, we need new episode... these have been running since the 90s
I love all of them!
I agree! But my daughter may disagree because when she’s traveling and doesn’t call to tell me she made it safe, I start blowing up her phone. She was on New Year’s Day. What pops up on my page? “Holiday air craft disasters!”
😂😂😂😂
anyone with average IQ could easily see that lame track setup was an accident waiting to happen
Just 2 years shy of the 40TH Anniversary RIP to the victims especially the mother and child, and the Brave Husband who went back to Die by his Wife’s side that got me because that’s exactly what I would do if my Wife and I were in that Situation without her I don’t know what I would do anymore! 😢❤
What's this? An episode that's not a reupload?
What a time to be alive!
No, it's definitely a reupload, I remember watching it
Get a life
@@SiViC74 ironic
I'm wondering if the guy in the caboose was dreaming that he was doing his job. That would explain why he remembered doing things that made no sense.
Thats like when you wake up in the morning to get ready for work or school only to realize you’re actually still in bed…. Thats definitely happened to me. Sometimes it messes with your memory
The degree to which fatigue impairs your decision making, is on the same level as intoxication with alcohol.
Money saving strategies by management that includes wage saving by shortening rest breaks is a short sighted plan.
That does happen when you are exhausted 😢
I had a dream where I was working all day, don't remember anything standing out and was excited to be off for tomorrow. I was 16 at the time and working a lot of hours prior to this. I went home and went to sleep so I can have an early start after a hectic week of working in the mall...
Next thing I know, my mom wakes me up to go to work and I told her I was off, and she gave me a confused look and said it was Friday, not Saturday. I say there in confusion before I literally burst into tears and acted like a child of 7. It got bad enough that my mom realized I was burning myself out and that I legit had an entire work day in my dream and called work to tell them I needed time off for a couple of days. (Working summer time and worked with mom at the job)
If the guy was lying or not, I understand the thought process, especially if he thought he was working when in reality he was sleeping.
I don't think anyone who has never worked night shifts can really appreciate what it's like. First thing you learn is that you can't just turn your body off at will. Having 8 hours between shifts does not translate into anything even approximating 8 hours of sleep!
I found it was possible to fall asleep pushing a floor machine when I accidentally nodded off one night and slammed into an end cap in a grocery store. I had no idea that was even possible. Working nights I never felt rested. It took about 2 weeks working days before I was right again
That's true I currently work the graveyard shift for a train company it's definitely brutal
I am glad, that in Europe we by law must have 16 hours of uninterrupted rest period.
Gotta wait for pass out time, I used to work night shift a long time ago, and I still have to wait till I get tired before I even look at a bed - Never had a normal sleep schedule since.
True. Worked swing (3:30 pm to midnight) for several years.
Heard Graveyard was worse, though.
We sure haven’t got train service that serves hot meals and beverages anymore.. so many trains have been cancelled; it isn’t uncommon for there only to be two trains going between large cities per day, instead of the 4-6 that used go between those cities daily. It makes going to concerts/theatre shows in the larger city difficult, if you don’t want to drive or haven’t got a car.
so your concerns are not about the system or crews, how there may be wrongs or abuse, but how its hard to get to concerts because the sch has changed. nice to see you have your priorities straight
@@rogerw-interested What if I told you both is possible? The infrastructure shown in the video is shoddy. No safety systems and the typical passing-loop-single-track bullshit that chokes every rail line to a near-halt.
Then stop being a loser and get a car. You sound like someone that is placing blame on others for your own failures in life.
I admire the people who survived this train wreck, and gave us the inside view of this tragedy! May God bless you, and all the people who died or were hurt! Thank You for this experience of how some of these people survived! I personally remember when this happened, as I'm 68 and I watched the news every day! I hope that the injured have healed, and I hope that the people who lost the ones they love, have found peace! God bless all!
God bless TH-cam (in spite of its myriad of faults) for making so much available to everyone.
Also, more importantly, God bless the survivors and save the victims. ❤
man and wife hugging each other till death,.....
This was so much more horrific than I expected. Air disasters are at least pretty quick… this sounds like the victims were suffering for a very long time
They are. I live in small size Denmark. And I lived through a trainwreck, albeit a very small and lucky one compared to this wreck because there were no fatalities and only minor injuries to the 20 some passengers and crew in all. I got of with just a sore neck and a sprained wrist and knee and didn't even have to report in sick, although I did have to stay away from work that day due to being treated and providing testimony and all that. Oh, and the wreck was a single train derailment at relatively low speed since we had just left a station.
But the point is that there is a lot of confusion in those situations. Both on the train and off. I know from the inquiry that the initial 112 calls stated that the accident was at the station. Not some kilometers from it as was actually the case. And that meant the rescue services were sent to the wrong location, only to find nothing. Had they been given the correct location, they could have been there in about 7 minutes from the word go. 7 minutes is still an awfully long time when you are in a train wreck and not really sure how bad your injuries are because of shock and confusion and pain and the similar set of feelings and emotions in everybody else around you initially. Not to mention the 45 minutes response time mentioned in this disaster.
Also, despite the enormous forces employed in this disaster, there are always people who are surviving at least initially and even some who are not even injured by some strange miracle. And yet even some of those uninjured initially may end up on the casualty list because they are trapped and unable to move and they end up burning or asphyxiated to death from toxic fumes. And that is the major difference from a plane crashing into the ground at more than 500 mph. On that plane, death is total and instantaneous because everything is ripped apart due to the aircraft structure not having anything approaching the strength of a rail car and even a rail car would be totally anihilated at 500 mph collision force.
And then, as in this disaster, the ones who did manage to survive through it all, had to wait 45 minutes for the first responders to arrive, meaning that after the triage and initial on the scene first aid and treatment, they would almost certainly have passed the hour since the accident before even getting transported to hospital. Some of them most likely having to wait more than 2 or perhaps even 3 hours to be transported because there is no rescue station within a foreseeable distance that will have 71 ambulances and rescue heloes available. Not even combined. We are most likely talking some 10 ambulances and maybe 3 heloes at best. And for some of them arriving later at hospital, they might even have to wait for treatment there too as this was in the middle of the rockies and with only small towns and the nearest hospital probably being a small one which would be totally overwhelmed by the sudden arrival of so many injured passengers all at once.
The other passengers and I in the wreck I experienced would only have to wait for 15 minutes in all before being cared for by first responders, and the hospital we were transported to was a major one which had no difficulties in handling the influx of some 20 people with no life or disability threatening injuries. And having only the injuries mentioned, I was one of the last people to be hauled out of the crash site, and I was being treated by doctors within half an hour of the derailment. And the reason I (and the other passengers as well) got any injuries at all was because I was litterally catapulted straight up, banging my head against the luggage rack which accounts for the sore neck, and then slammed to the floor because the wagon was bouncing so heavily. Had it just left the tracks and rolled to a stop, I would probably still have ended up on the floor, but with only a hurt pride from sitting down rather unceremonially and undesired. (Imagine that last image. 🤣)
So yeah. We are talking massive time phrames here, compared to the instant end in a planecrash.
@@Jens-Viper-Nobel That Danish trail derailment, where was it? Is it on Wikipedia?
@@NiklasVWWV Afraid not. It was way before internet got really up and running, and due to only relatively light injuries on a local stretch of private railroad, it only hit the local newspapers. I didn't even see a mention of it in the tv news that evening. Not big enough in scale and casualties.
Fatigue is a big issue for train crews. I’ve been with a Class I for three years. We have PTC (positive train control) that prevents us from overspeed, running reds, blasting through MOW crews, and initiating penalty brakes for violations. PTC also reads out warning distances and stopping distances combined with upcoming signal indication blocks. PTC is not fool proof and one terrifying thing I’ve seen with PTC is some engineers lay back, barely awake, PTC is controlling the throttle via auto throttle, and the only thing keeping them awake slightly is the locomotive alerter (dead man switch) that if not pressed triggers a penalty brake application/PCS open (fellow engineers and conductors will be familiar with this)
As a conductor on road crew boards in the south west there has been a few trips where I’ve been completely DAZED & sleepy. It’s been bad where I’ve fallen asleep when we get routed into a siding to let trains pass; where my engineer and I sat at a CLEAR green signal for 30 mins from exhaustion. We are governed by federal hours of service 12 hours max per shift & 276 hours a month but being on call with 10 hour minimum rest breaks - it’s impossible to catch sleep good constantly.
I’m happy I got off road boards for a switch yard job but it’s still grueling work.
yup and CN wants to violate this with PSR and bring Boomer Railroading back. Train Crews are Not Expendable! You get 8 hours rest before you step in that cab don't go out fatigued.
Bro similar issues happening now in Indian railway most are freight train
Just gonna point out, US trains frequently don't have brakemen anymore, just engineers and conductors, and the railways are trying to get rid of the conductor position as well, to save on labor costs. Practically begging for more accidents to happen.
Canada briefly allowed single person operation for short line service, but then Lac Megantic happened. That crash makes my blood run cold. I hired on as a brakeman just as cabeese were done away with, and 3-man crews were becoming 2-man crews. I got furloughed and never went back for various reasons. I still miss the job and regret changing careers. It was a tough, nasty job with tough, hard people back then and I wanted a job where I wasn't riding the side of a boxcar over freeways during ice storms or wrapping on 100 handbrakes in 100° heat. I shoulda stayed!
when the Railroads switched from steam to diesel The union said each locomotive had to have a person in it. The railroads got around that by creating those cab less B units.
And how many accidents have happened? Zero.
Obviously having all these crew members didn't prevent accidents now did they..
@@KK_on_KK Having brakes didn't prevent the accidents that happened either, but nobody's dumb enough to suggest that we remove brakes from trains.
I can imagine the rhythmic sounds and low tones experienced regularly putting the men to sleep. Perhaps switching operators to different lines,and routes,as a company practice, would help keep the operators more alert.
Thank you for covering this tragedy so well. I believe you covered the subject in a good way being honest and thorough resulting, I believe, in important changes being made.
I love trains with a passion.I once moved into a home just feets away from the train track.I love watching the Amtrak rolled across my kitchen window as I enjoyed my countryside breakfast every morning..👍😁
Mayday and greendot aviation you guys are the best in covering disasters. Professionalism at its best.
Mentor Pilot is the best out there.
Mayday is a TV show, greendot and mentor pilot are TH-camrs....
World of difference.
@@harryshuman9637 world of difference or not, i stand by what i said.
Negligence has so much negative effect and consequences, my condolences to those families who lost there loved once,
And unfortunately it's rife in all industries
Wait since when have they done non air accidents?! I don't ever recall seeing these. That's outstanding!
They made two train related ones (CN 413 and SP 7551) and one episode about a ship, one which I’m not familiar with
The woman described the motion of a train as soporific. She got that right! I grew up next to a railroad and I would wait for the train to come at night so I could fall asleep.
As someone who suffers from serious health problems, i know that problems from lack of sleep are greatly amplified. When not healthy.
The "dead man's peddle" is a weird fix... For starters, it is very possible to fall asleep "stiff", locked into a certain position, so in this case the peddle wouldn't work. But worse than that, I personally have found that the more pressure I have on the bottoms of my feet, the more tired I feel.... Maybe that's just a me thing... But I would be surprised if that were the case... Leaving this peddle not only ineffective but, in some cases, actually making it worse
Thankfully the dead man’s pedal is outdated now too. Nowadays the engineer has to either change one of the controls (throttle, brake, etc) or silence an alarm every 30 seconds or so
The “dead man’s peddle” I had when operating, every 5 seconds you had to either press or decompress before the alarm sounded. As a second option, the master control could also be pressed or decompressed every 5 seconds.
@@elijahsiluano1893 that sounds exhausting
I grew up in a small railroad town in the Mojave Desert. Aside from two highways meeting in the middle of town, three different rail companies ran through the area- Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, and Trona Railway. With a population of only 3,000 our little town seemed busier than most metropolitan cities.
Man, as a kid I always dreamed of being a locomotive engineer. When I watched the trains blast through town, I always thought that being an engineer would be the grooviest job a guy could have. Trains still used a caboose back then, so I thought that if I couldn't be an engineer, I wouldn't mind being the dude that rides in the caboose.
I knew a few guys that worked for the railroad so when I graduated high school in 1982, I learned that getting a job with the railroad at that time was nearly impossible. I applied with both Santa Fe and Southern Pacific and think my applications went straight into the trash can. I never heard anything from either one. It was hard getting a job anywhere in the early 1980s. I took a job as a truck mechanic until something better came along. 42 years later nothing better came along. lol
It's amazing anybody survived this💁♂️
Bizarre this is the most ground based air disaster I've ever seen
A couple of those train cars achieved lift
@@ZC.Andrew And perhaps travelled as far airborne as the Wright Brothers first flight?
Guys chill 😂... the smoke went into the air... i mean the smoke from the crash went "airborne"
"V1..... Rotate..... Positive rate" the conductor said to the engineer, then he retracted the train's landing gear.
@@musicloverme3993 If not further!
It looks as if Conductor Smitty was stretching the truth, and was himself asleep on the job.
He wasn't driving
Yeah he was sleeping
Two "tells", from Smith, that I saw were...
• Touching his ear.
• Suddenly drinking water like he's parched.
Both mannerisms are known to happen when someone is lying.
Yup. Or at least trying to cover up for not dumping the pipe when he couldn't reach the head end. Those Motorola lunchbox radios are bulletproof and so long as the battery is charged they'll work if the right channel is selected. 11000' of train is nothing for those. I used to use them all the time as a brakie, before he got HTs.
anyone with average IQ could easily see that lame track setup was an accident waiting to happen
Having been hit by a train before, this hits close to home. In 1990 my father was rushing to a hockey game and he didn't see or hear the train whistle and we got hit by the side of the train, we got lucky, as on that same road 6 other people were hit and killed. After that CN installed a better light system.
Whether it be lack of sleep or distraction, it will cause serious issues and if you are unlucky it may harm others. My condolences to the victims of the wreck and even to the conductors, because they themselves were being overworked and not getting the adequate sleep that they needed. If I am not mistaken, I believe CN now operates where it is 2-weeks on nights and 2-weeks on days? I could be wrong, if I am someone please correct me.
So not one single question as to the working conditions train crews are exposed to and the effects on their ability to function? You've got to be pushing people well past the limit for an entire crew to fall asleep or not be properly functioning. But in the corporate world, that is completely left out of the discussion.
Sadly this has been a factor in many other accidents
no one should be allowed to operate a freight train with only a few hours sleep, because blaming them for all being asleep, doesn't make the railroad look good!
One thing I remember thinking when I saw this years ago, they never mentioned any emergency braking on the VIA train either.
in fairness via couldnt have prevented it, my question tho is wheres the talk of the dispatchers? surely to god they have a system to say "oi something just ran a red pay attention" cause atleast then dispatcher coulve called the crew somehow and told them to hit the air, or told the via to try and throw throw it in reverse.
The Via hogger probably dumped it as soon as he saw what was going on, but that wouldn't have done a damned thing and was thus not relevant to the event.
By the time VIA saw CN, nothing could have been done to prevent or even mitigate that accident. I imagine the engineers on VIA were pulling every lever, flipping every switch, and pushing every button they could as a last ditch effort. Unfortunately the end result was inevitable.
back in the early 80s my mum and I took a train through the Canadian Rockies. We got a sleeper car and we were one car from the observation car. It was so wonderful. We had formal meals in the dining car with real metal silverware and a waiter. My mum wanted to have me experience this because she had many fond memories of riding by train growing up in Saskatchwan. (I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio). It is really a great journey if you can do it. IF it is n't a shadow of what it used to me. My mum told me that they actually had REAL SILVER... we didn't but it was metal.. not cheap plastic microwaved stuff.
When they say "rules and regulations are written in blood" this is what they mean.
In most cases yes, but nowadays general safety rules may reach the point where there's no risk to anyone if even "something" isn't "looked into". There are logical conclusions.
I was on the Highway Coming From Grand Cache going to Edmonton when the trains collide! The impact sent me off the highway, I was able to get the van under control. I was going to stop at Nojack for gas, but when I got there it was busy with police and Helcopters. went straight through to Edmonton. Scary!!
Trains, like Airlines and Truckers, should have limits on maximum hours working and minimum hours rest between shifts
But it’s perfectly okay for a passenger vehicle driver to work a full 8-16 hours shift and then be able to get into their vehicle and drive anywhere they like, huh? Never mind the fact that passenger vehicle outnumber commercial vehicles of any type nearly 100:1. Never mind the fact that operators of commercial vehicles are already regulated to the hilt, yet all that’s needed to be permitted to operate passenger vehicles is a birth certificate and $75.
In the US and Canada, you are not allowed to operate the train after 12 hours on duty except in very rare circumstances and I believe a fine is levied on the RR each time. Canada recently limited employees to 196 hours per rolling 28 days (that's pretty stringent; here in the US it's 276 hours per calendar month), along with weekly/yearly caps and some other requirements.
@@craigandnem4597that’s literally one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read
@@Trashman702craig makes strong points, when you look at the numbers, way more car drivers driving tired than commercial drivers and statistics back that up
Even with such limits on maximum hours, management finds a way to twist them. At the time of this train accident, I was a co-pilot in a tiny air company, operating one leased twin turboprop engine airplane, Hawker-Siddeley HS-748. We were three 2-strong flight crew. Each flight crew worked one week, rested two. On regular workdays, I worked by daytime. But weekends were different and varied and included long night- and daytime flight legs and, after weekend flights, I had to wake up at 1 am on Monday to be ready at 2 am at the airport to inspect and prepare the plane, airborne at 3 am, to be home for two week's rest at noon. A much necessary rest because, during the weekend, I had been working longer than 16 hours a day (16 hours-long strict flying time, plus additional hours to/from airports, plus airplane inspections and preparations, plus next-leg wait, plus any delay time lapses) and the law dictated a maximum total worktime of 16 hours if followed by immediate full rest period, so total 16 hours worktime was written down, the extra four or five hours forgotten. And we couldn't complain: if the company didn't work this way, it couldn't afford to pay our meager salaries (60 workers). Yes, a meager salary I earned, comparable to that of a taxi driver. Of course, Captains earned more, but not much more. Many a time, we pilots were asked to scratch our pockets to complete fuel payment, a loan refunded after flight tickets had been sold. Not a very profitable company, but at least I had a job and accumulated flight experience. There weren't many pilot job opportunities those years.
Shocking indeed!, seeing such horrific scenes caused by human error is worst of its kind
Oh... so *many* things wrong here: no positive train control; no active cognition alarms (not just a deadman's pedal); insufficient sleep afforded the crew; caboose didn't apply emergency brake, etc.
It was 1986. What the fk do you think tech was like back then? Doubt you were even born.
Interesting/informative/entertaining. Special thanks to surviving guest speakers. Sharing experiences of this disaster. Making this presentation more authentic and possible. Once again as always the 1st responders came to the rescue-!!!.😉
Am I the only one who would unironically watch a show that is similar to how Mayday is done, but is only about train disasters?
Not enough sleep for the conductors seems to be the major cause of this accident.
Two conductors fall asleep at the same time?
@@pamsmith1665 absolutely. They did this daily, this time they just didn't wake up in time. They knew it was a long empty stretch of track with no crossing. That whole crew was asleep at the same time. There are other accidents with sleeping crews being the direct cause. Working for the railroad is extremely difficult even for the best men.
After giving it more thought I agree with you, all 3 were asleep
There was only one conductor and he was in the van, where he was supposed to be. It was the Locomotive Engineer and the Brakeman on the head end. I have no doubt it was fatigue. Ostensibly there are always two crewmembers on the lead locomotive for no other reason that to catch the signals and confirm what they saw. The freight would have had a clear-to-stop (Approach signal in U.S. terminology), meaning they can take the hole and know that the exit home signal would be at danger. Not just that, but the signal before it would probably have been an advanced clear to stop. Neither crewmember caught any of the signals involved. Why the conductor didn't dump the pipe is the mystery here, and something he'll live with for the rest of his life.
@@pamsmith1665thete was a 3 man crew conductor, brakeman, and engineer. Sleep def was a factor, the brakeman had flu too. Lots of things contributed to this accident.
I've probably commented on this before, but in 1986, Australia and most other countries had been, and still are using the 90 second switch mentioned towards the end of this movie. Unless pressed every 90 seconds or less, the unit switches off the entire locomotive and applies the emergency brakes. Keeping one's foot pressed on a pedal for hours on end is American technology at it's absolute worst.
Modern Alerter systems on our newer units (Atleast here in the States) Arnt a save all end all thing either, and can very easily be bypassed. I'm not sure about the new ES44's or the newer SD70's, But most alerter reset buttons I'm use too can be "Over riden" by simply duck taping the reset plunger down...
@@joshmeister4449that’s weird. If you hold down the reset button too long where I worked (New Zealand) you go into emergency. Then it’s time for coffee withe boss.
You cannot bypass an RSC.@@joshmeister4449
@@joshmeister4449I know some oldheads for BNSF who swear they can key that thing in their sleep. And I believe them haha
After watching all those flight disaster vids, I'm thinking maybe taking the train would be safer...... and now my feed brings me this??
same here...
I was thinking about that. Me watching these disasters mess with my anxiety 😞
With the health problems that conductor had he wouldn't be allowed to drive a semi truck in America. His high Blood Pressure alone wouldn't allow him to drive. I believe 3 of his health problems made him not eligible to drive without even counting anything to do with alcohol.
My dad worked for CN when this happened and had to go to the crash. He was traumatized! My mom worked the phones calling loved ones of the people that died. 😢
I knew a CN train guy that had such bad PTSD from years of animals and suicidal people sometimes with others being killed in front of him. He had a $700k condo in 80s and had it painted flat black no colour inside at all. Sad story.
0:33 The first time I saw this part I thought this was a real scene from the accident but now I just noticed it's a simulation of what happened
I'm a student and work a part-time job at an optometrist's practice. It's a pretty simple job and the hours are fairly standard. Even with my simple job, 3.5 hours of sleep would definitely take a toll on me. During my exam period, I sometimes get 1-2 hrs of sleep and it completely crushes me at work. I make easy mistakes, zone out mid-conversation and lose track of my tasks. My manager understands our predicament as most of us working there are juggling work and studies but even then he stresses to us the importance of rest, not just for our own health but so we can perform our job with focus. I can't imagine, for the life of me, that someone could think it's alright to have someone drive a massive freight train, during the early hours of the day, on just 3.5 hours of sleep. Even if you don't have a single care about your employees, I can't think of a worse business decision than to let an exhausted man take control of my massive train worth millions. This isn't just negligence, it's pure stupidity to the highest degree.
What? Train conductor at CN here. Not sure where you got your information, but trainmen are most definitely still on call 24/7 lol. It was actually Transport Canada regulations in 2023 that forced the railways to give trainmen 12 hours mandatory rest between shifts. Before that there were people working 2 shifts a day up to 18 hours.
This is so sad! Especially when all you have to to stay awake is keep your mouth moving. That's right, I drove semi for 13 years and I found out early in my driving career, I was very tired one night going from Southern Ill to Madison Wis. I had already had a very long day. Another driver seen I was all over the road, he knew how to stop it. This Great Truck Driver taught me that if you keep your mouth moving you will not fall asleep driving. I started buying up bags of popcorn to keep me awake, it worked for the rest of my driving career!!!
The real danger in the railways is switching to auto pilot mode. You are driving but your mind is elsewhere. In this state it so easy to miss a caution signal and by the time you see the danger it's too late. These trains do not stop in a hurry even with the emergency break. I was sitting in a railway loop yesterday. I was staring at the red signal as i thought of this accident. It can be so easy to do with just AWS. You know when you are driving truck and you suddenly notice you can't remember the last few miles? That the mindset i am talking about.
Most railways are pretty good with fatigue today. Lesson learned in blood. If i am tired i will go home. The other day i was exhausted from my shifts changing from nights to day. I am nocturnal and they had me starting at 10am. I started my shift ok but after my lunch break i was exhausted. I called them up and said i am going home. You do not drive trains when tired/fatigued. If you are tired you do not take a train out.
Yeah, no! these guys were suffering sleep deprivation. That's a bit more than your average drowsiness. When you say "all you had to do is keep your mouth moving", you're talking about fighting off drowsiness. These guys were exhausted, not to mention one of them had the flu.
Nah does not work for me. I can eat while I’m asleep been doing that a lot lately. I got to bed snacking and wake up with food on my bed. Go figure 😅
@@82ndAbnVet yeah the flue was a major factor. I remember having COVID and i was getting confused trying to use a Windows OS.
CN policy of not giving crews adequate rest was the main cause. With adequate rest the crew would not have gone to sleep.
The train management was supposed to carry the bigger share of the blame the workers had very minimal resting time.
Thank you for this one! Wow this was terrible, and yet so preventable. The saddest thing is, we can see this happening again as companies/corporations strive for speed and profits over peoples lives
IMO, the VIA crew didn't even noticed the train in front with the high cab they were ridding. And they never braked either according to the testimony of the VIA passengers who survived the crash.
The one thing that is not even thought about is temperature: was there a fog that day thick enough to hide the lights on both side and even the light of an opposing train?
Being a truck driver I only know too well about extreme fatigue yet being expected to work. If you don't do it your down the road and they'll find a new victim believe me!!!
Tragically, there aren't enough train accidents for an entire series like Air Disasters.
Right! I mean it’s a good thing but these are so fascinating. Personally, I like to see the changes that were made because of it. Some of the causes are so minuscule I can’t wrap my head around it. There has been horrific loss to get to where we are today.
@@MzAmberJade I thought all train tracks were level before I watched this. I figured that was the reason for tunnels, etc. I doubt I’m alone - a 2% incline is considered very steep but difficult or impossible to notice with the human eye
Bro come to India we have many😂
@@viki19910 I saw that on the news earlier today and thought of this. I doubt India has the same safety standards as most western countries but, statistically speaking, rail travel is safer than driving a car by a large margin.
Yesterday there was a head on head train collision crash in West Java, Indonesia.
RIP Bruno Barembruch a retired Via Rail chief riding this train on a free pass.
havnt finnished watching but my theory is that they fell asleep in the front. the guy in the back seem like he was also sleeping. then he lied about calling up the front. and not getting through. or he wasnt lieing. and he couldnt get ahold anyone bc they were asleep. you have to remember. that they only got 3 hours of sleep.
Lying .
And they were use to the short sleep on layovers
@@pamsmith1665 try getting used to not sleep because dispatcher will call you everytime. And you have to obey
@@pamsmith1665 So why would he lie? Obviously because he was actually asleep. But you just said they were used to the short sleep time. So if that argument doesn't work (according to you) for the people up front, why does it work for the guy at the back? Most likely they were all asleep. So he lied, but they likely would not have answered even if he did call.
Mayday has great documents .keep up good work
Yes but they keep on copying wonders footage.
I worked for CN Rail in the Edmonton motive power shop at the time this accident occurred. It was not uncommon to see locomotives with the deadman pedal held down by a flag pole.
The cold hard brutal truth is the freight train engineer and brake man fell asleep they were sick and didn't get enough sleep
Oh, it's a reupload, imagine my surprise
I mean not that surprising. They don't produce this show anymore.
Shut up
Yeah I realized that 😐
I thought that it wasn’t but then by the time it showed the crash itself. I knew.
@@CreatingAlonghold on I am pretty sure mayday still makes new seasons
MayDay: Air Disaster "Oh it's not good enough?!"
*shoves your face into the content*
MayDay: Air Disaster "All the hard work I do around here ungrateful ass"
*swills beer from recliner while wearing a wife beater undershirt with stains*
i've never been so early for a mayday upload omg!!!
Always err on the side of caution when lives are at risk. God Bless them all.
In today’s railroad industry, cabooses are few and far between and occasionally used, thus mitigating the brakeman’s position and job on the freight train. In my belief, train crews should have a minimum of 8 required hours of sleep at night before coming on next day and taking control of a freight train from a dead stop, which is a rule outright ignored by CN 413’s incoming and outgoing crews on February 8, 1986. Crew changes are now primarily performed on sidings without other trains in the area and without ignorance toward the rules written in the blood of the crews killed in years long in the past and crews killed in more recent train crashes as well as the blood of the passengers, motorists, livestock, and passersby killed in more recent train crashes. These tragic accidents have taken the lives of people and animals and destroyed billions of dollars and equivalent and not so equivalent currencies worth of equipment around the world. This equipment includes radios, locomotives, freight cars, passenger coaches, and of course automobiles and commercial vehicles.
Hot swapping still happens today and will always happen from time to time. Also if someone gets hit by a train (outside of another train) it's never the trains fault
Most people can't even sleep for eight hours. In fact it's unhealthy as sleeping more than seven regularly makes you feel more sleepy when awake.
that 3 year old being killed hits right in the gut worse than anything. i have a son his age that looks eerily similar to him, i fear loosing my kids more than anything.
There are plenty of culprits in this accident, but the Number One culprit IMO is CN itself. To set up horrendous work schedules like they did guaranteed an accident, it was just a matter of time. Beyond that, the conductor's behavior was clearly criminal, and he should have been prosecuted for manslaughter. He obviously lied under oath.
He could have been prosecuted, the problem is there is no way to prove whether or not anyone had actually fallen asleep. I suppose they could have possibly gotten him for not pulling the emergency break though.
yeah he did!
he didn't wake up till it crashed
Hi 👋 I remember this.... I lived in Calgary Alberta and was 16 when this happened. My friends father was a maintenance engineer....😢😢.... I heard many stories just like this....
THAT'D HAVE TO BE TERRIFYING TO BE IN THAT SITUATION‼️🦺
As said by a nervous wreck.
@@lexinexi-hj7zo 🤣
So true I have actually been on the Canadian Just a few days ago
I've watched this twice and each time I'm chilled. Its just awful - everything about it.
I wish well for all the victims family’s and survivor, it’s sad that this happened.
anyone with average IQ could easily see that lame track setup was an accident waiting to happen
Thank you for sharing this.
Totally a joke, as I know this is indeed a Mayday episode, but immediately when I saw this title i was like, "yes, my favorite 'air disaster'... a train."
Awesome video! Thank you for posting 👍👍
at this point it’s not just air disasters
Dang !! It's eerie this was _just_ recommended by TH-cam today. Just got home from riding the VIA Canadian from Toronto to Vancouver *_today_* ... including through the same section between Jasper and Edmonton.
I can tell you VIA instructs all passengers on how to break the windows to escape in an emergency, right after boarding the train, and the location of the hammers to do so. There are also latched exit windows in the dome cars.
What James Heyd stated at 8:0 is very true, traveling long distance by train becomes a "very small community", in close proximity were you get to meet and interact with this same group of people for days. It is still like this today. What a horrific disaster.
Dude same. I was on the same train than got home and saw this video i was like desr god.
@@Luxisious I was in my teens when this event happened, and was living in eastern Canada at the time, so my memory of this event is vague.
I slept well in the cabin on the train, but I don't think I would have if I had watched this video prior to the trip on the Via Canadian.
Still very odd timing for this video to be recommended, the day I got back. I wasn't even looking at videos related to trains or disasters, just financial news reports.
30:02 That's funny. The relay labled EOR tells me he's looking at a railroad crossing signal relay cabinet, not a wayside signal cabinet.
Stock/random documentary footage go brrrrr
Awesome documentary, thank you for sharing.
You really never know what could have really happened. Freak things can happen. Even testing wouldn't show these factors. But it is more likely the guy in the cabose was asleep. And that something happened up front. Medical problems or they were fatigue and not as aware as they should be.
I think if the conductor had called out so many times without taking action, especially blowing through the signals, that he should have been held responsible for a major failure. It ultimately rests on CN, however
He was totally asleep