I too work with a Tormach 770 and because its essentially a hobby mill I've had a hard time finding a resource on how hard I can push it without getting premature wear on the mill and the tooling. I'm glad to have finally found someone who is willing to be as aggressive with their 770 as you are. It' makes for very good reference points when trying to do High Speed milling on my own mill. For the life of me I find it hard to trust the feeds and speeds that my HSM software churns out. I think it has more to do with me being a cheap-skate and not wanting to have to repeatedly buy more replacement cutting tools than being overly cautious about overly aggressive feeds and speeds receipts. Regarding that lip of metal that your cutter is leaving behind; if those are square cutting end mills with no radius on them this could mean that the very sharp corners of those cutting tools are either wearing off or breaking off leaving that thin outside edge of your part untouched by the cutting face of your end mill. I've had the same thing happen to me.
Thanks Craig. For small shops, I think getting the biggest machines that will fit is best. However there seems to be a lot of buzz about the 440. Smaller but maybe more rigid and precise? I have even thought about 1100 but getting 220v is going to be costly. But then I could get a good welder(another toy)
Not sure how a smaller machine would be more rigid. As far as more precise, not sure. How far is the panel from your shop? I've been an electrician for over 20 years.
The rumble is from several things. You should still center drill your locations to help start the hole without deflection. Lower rpm could help when drilling with larger diameter tools. You will also see huge increases in tool life if you stop plunging into the material on your step machining process. Ramp along the part contour for entry or use a 2d entry from just out side the part. Rob (Pcnc1100 owner) and I drive several mazak and Hass at the 9-5
+Rob Hires - Thanks Rob! The parts are pretty thin. I may just use a carbide center drill and just drill all the way through. I really don't want to add another tool change. It looks like most of the work will be in 16 gauge and 1/8" steel now. Yeah, I included a lead-in, out to it. The 770 doesn't have a lot of torque at lower speeds in high gear for larger diameter tools so I am using carbide at a higher RPM.
Hi, I've been looking at your channel because I'm planning on a 770 and it has been very usefull to decide on what accesories to buy. This video is over a year old so maybe you have realized, but for the benefit of other viewers, this might be maching at high speed but its not "High Speed Machining". HSM is about constant endmill engagement (less than half diameter) so you can machine faster than you would if you had to set your IPM considering you had to use full endmill diameter some times. You can't just get to your mill and do HSM, you need to plan for that by using HSM paths in your CAM. A calculator like gwizard can tell you how fast you can go with HSM
Cool, thanks! Yeah, that was a while ago. Just a fancy title for more interest. LOL I still have a lot to learn though. I will be taking the 14 week Titans of CNC class starting next week though.
Looks Like your getting Her dialed in a lot quicker with the shallower DOC, As far as the edge on your shoulder pass From my experience I think thats normal especially when using a EM of similar size to the WOC. It seems to fold rather than cut the edge there's just not enough support to keep it vertical. One last thing I noticed You know me LOL. The Code seems to Dwell or pause a bit when transitioning from the radius to the straight on the lip cut? Great job be Safe, Sam
+Dominik Lizak - Actually, I find that there is less stress at higher feed rates and less depth of cut. It cuts 10-15 thou like nothing. The HP in that cutting was only .32 and the deflection was .0009. Yeah, I know, I don't want her to get warn out but I need to make money. :-)
+Dominik Lizak , Ok so it wasn't me seeing things, I didn't know if it was a G code issue in 360 or Path Pilot. It seems to do it at every transition, Is there a parameter that can be tweaked?
Try drilling holes along the profile of the tool path and going full DOC for removing the excess material also clamp the excess material so it doesn't break your tool.
Could the rumbling be due to the drill tip against the flat surface? Try spot drilling before actually drilling, that way the drill tip has somewhere to go and the cutting flutes get a better chance of starting... just a thought :)
Thanks Bruce. I'm trying to eliminate a tool change. If I had an automatic tool changer I would certainly do that. My current plates are only 1/8" thick. Maybe I can just drill the hole with a center drill. Lol.
+Shain Terry - Thanks Shain. Not sure how to lead in without it leading in and out all the time. Taking the lead-in and outs cut the time way down. I don't see a lot of options in linking to control the tool path.
+Shain Terry - I hope so. I haven't seen any videos going into detail about controlling the tool path. If you find out anything let me know. I'd certainly appreciate it.
Hi Craig, I have enjoyed your videos and I am trying to convince myself to take the leap and get a pcnc. Since I only have 120v in my garage, I am looking at your 770 or the 440. I am leaning toward the 770. Is there anything you would do different now that the 440 is available? Keep up the good work! Byron
+Byron Porter - Thanks Byron! To me, the price difference isn't that much so I would still go for the 770. If you don't have much space or are only working on small parts then the 440 might work. Just remember that you need more working envelope then you think. You need room to go around a part and set zeros. Hope you get one. Thanks!
Why you're drill is chattering/rumbling is because you have to light of chip load on that drill you either need increase the feed or back off the rpm leave the feed the same. That drill I would guess needs .005 chip load
+Chief Machining - Unfortunately the Tormach 770 doesn't have the power for that kind of chip load in high and I can't keep changing the belt position. The only thing I can think of is to keep lowering the rpm while in high till just before the spindle stalls. I'm at 2500 rpm now. It will stall at 1200 because it will only be at 15 hertz.
Have you tried a slower RPM for that drill feeding at 3 ipm say 1000 so your chipload is around .003 instead of .0011...Or you just kick the feed up to 9 ipm see if that helps.
+Joel Heaton - 1000 RPM in high gear puts the Tormach 770 at around 10 hz which would have no torque. I don't want to change the belt position in the middle of a part. That's why I switched to a carbide twist drill. I may try using a center drill all the way through since the part is so thin. Thanks.
where are you getting your speeds and feeds from?..i feel like your trying to go way to fast..which is why you had to lighten the depth of cut...with carbide I would use like 250 sfm and .0015 chip load per tooth and take the contour in 1 rough pass..then a finish pass 25% faster for both...and for the drill 100sfm .003 per rev per tooth..and peck .02 pecks .1 deep...then plunge...but thats just me...3.82XSFM÷(DIA)=RPM* RPM X CHIP LOAD X TEETH= FEED
There are a lot of factor involved like what kind of wood, HP rating and RPM of your mill. Have you tried Gwizard. They have a free trial. If you want to keep it simple then just start slow and get a feel for what it can do. Then increase it.
Ken Hendricks Don’t use a center drill around all; that’s the wrong tool for the job. Center drills are for lathe work; the 60deg included angle means that the web of the drill will not engage before the margins, which will cost tool live and hole quality. A spot drill with an included angle closer to or larger than your drill point angle would be a better option. When using solid carbide drills; however, no pre-drilling operations are suggested, unless over 7xD.
+Ken Hendricks - I have since then gone to 16 gauge steel and stack them 2-6 plates high with a bolt through the middle. I thought about a vacuum plate but thought it might not hold the hot rolled steel very well. Thanks.
bellacharge I don’t agree. No need to use a spot drill when using a solid carbide drill with a self-centering point grind. Spot drilling will often; but not always, add cycle time and cost tool life.
Yeah, that was awhile ago. I still conventional mill though because I mount the covers with only a center screw. Climb milling will spin the cover. I use 2D adaptive now.
+Lenny Sweet Not sure why but G-wizard keeps recommending conventional milling. I am using climb milling now. Finish isn't much of an issue on this part. I will check out the 3 flute. Thanks Lenny!
I'm Sorry dude but it looks like you didn't get the point of high Speed Cutting. It doesn't mean Full woc cutting with an endmill at high feed rate. If you had used a tiny carbide Facemill that would count i guess :D
Been there, still learning tho hah. Been about 2 years since i started running a HAAS. Time for me to get something physically smaller that's mine and will fit in my garage lol. Going for a 770. What are your running settings now ? Feeds and speeds? Depth of cuts ? .025-.050?
I ran a Haas once, Nice! Great, I love my 770! I make the covers (CRS) at 40 IPM, 5000 RPM, .050 Optimal load, .25 DOC with a 1/4" 4 flute rougher. I like the YG1 X Speed
I too work with a Tormach 770 and because its essentially a hobby mill I've had a hard time finding a resource on how hard I can push it without getting premature wear on the mill and the tooling. I'm glad to have finally found someone who is willing to be as aggressive with their 770 as you are. It' makes for very good reference points when trying to do High Speed milling on my own mill.
For the life of me I find it hard to trust the feeds and speeds that my HSM software churns out. I think it has more to do with me being a cheap-skate and not wanting to have to repeatedly buy more replacement cutting tools than being overly cautious about overly aggressive feeds and speeds receipts.
Regarding that lip of metal that your cutter is leaving behind; if those are square cutting end mills with no radius on them this could mean that the very sharp corners of those cutting tools are either wearing off or breaking off leaving that thin outside edge of your part untouched by the cutting face of your end mill. I've had the same thing happen to me.
Very cool! I'll be doing some very similar cutting. It's encouraging to hear that you were able to run it this fast. :)
+bluehandsvideo - Thanks! Cool, I have been having a lot of success with it.
Thanks Craig. For small shops, I think getting the biggest machines that will fit is best. However there seems to be a lot of buzz about the 440. Smaller but maybe more rigid and precise? I have even thought about 1100 but getting 220v is going to be costly. But then I could get a good welder(another toy)
Not sure how a smaller machine would be more rigid. As far as more precise, not sure. How far is the panel from your shop? I've been an electrician for over 20 years.
The rumble is from several things. You should still center drill your locations to help start the hole without deflection. Lower rpm could help when drilling with larger diameter tools.
You will also see huge increases in tool life if you stop plunging into the material on your step machining process. Ramp along the part contour for entry or use a 2d entry from just out side the part.
Rob
(Pcnc1100 owner) and I drive several mazak and Hass at the 9-5
+Rob Hires - Thanks Rob! The parts are pretty thin. I may just use a carbide center drill and just drill all the way through. I really don't want to add another tool change. It looks like most of the work will be in 16 gauge and 1/8" steel now. Yeah, I included a lead-in, out to it. The 770 doesn't have a lot of torque at lower speeds in high gear for larger diameter tools so I am using carbide at a higher RPM.
Rob Hires Wrong; no need to spot drill (center still is the wrong tool for the application) when using a self centering solid carbide drill.
Hi, I've been looking at your channel because I'm planning on a 770 and it has been very usefull to decide on what accesories to buy. This video is over a year old so maybe you have realized, but for the benefit of other viewers, this might be maching at high speed but its not "High Speed Machining". HSM is about constant endmill engagement (less than half diameter) so you can machine faster than you would if you had to set your IPM considering you had to use full endmill diameter some times. You can't just get to your mill and do HSM, you need to plan for that by using HSM paths in your CAM. A calculator like gwizard can tell you how fast you can go with HSM
Cool, thanks! Yeah, that was a while ago. Just a fancy title for more interest. LOL I still have a lot to learn though. I will be taking the 14 week Titans of CNC class starting next week though.
That's real good garage-speed! 👍
+Peter Dahlman - Thanks! Without the garage. :)
Looks Like your getting Her dialed in a lot quicker with the shallower DOC, As far as the edge on your shoulder pass From my experience I think thats normal especially when using a EM of similar size to the WOC. It seems to fold rather than cut the edge there's just not enough support to keep it vertical. One last thing I noticed You know me LOL. The Code seems to Dwell or pause a bit when transitioning from the radius to the straight on the lip cut?
Great job
be Safe,
Sam
That dwell is just the way pathpilot is, its more noticeable when you cut at high feed than when you feed at 10 IPM.
+Dominik Lizak - That's what I was afraid of. Well, I got the code down to around 10 minutes for 4 parts so I shouldn't complain. :-) Thanks.
+Craig's Machine Shop Aren't you afraid of stressing your machine this much? Just asking I would cry if I had to see my tormach running like this :)
+Dominik Lizak - Actually, I find that there is less stress at higher feed rates and less depth of cut. It cuts 10-15 thou like nothing. The HP in that cutting was only .32 and the deflection was .0009. Yeah, I know, I don't want her to get warn out but I need to make money. :-)
+Dominik Lizak , Ok so it wasn't me seeing things, I didn't know if it was a G code issue in 360 or Path Pilot. It seems to do it at every transition, Is there a parameter that can be tweaked?
Try drilling holes along the profile of the tool path and going full DOC for removing the excess material
also clamp the excess material so it doesn't break your tool.
Could the rumbling be due to the drill tip against the flat surface? Try spot drilling before actually drilling, that way the drill tip has somewhere to go and the cutting flutes get a better chance of starting... just a thought :)
Thanks Bruce. I'm trying to eliminate a tool change. If I had an automatic tool changer I would certainly do that. My current plates are only 1/8" thick. Maybe I can just drill the hole with a center drill. Lol.
Great video. On that step pass avoid the plunge lead in from the side.
+Shain Terry - Thanks Shain. Not sure how to lead in without it leading in and out all the time. Taking the lead-in and outs cut the time way down. I don't see a lot of options in linking to control the tool path.
Are you using Fusion360 for programming?
+Shain Terry - Yes
+Craig's Machine Shop I am learning it as well. I am sure there has to be some options in there.
+Shain Terry - I hope so. I haven't seen any videos going into detail about controlling the tool path. If you find out anything let me know. I'd certainly appreciate it.
Hi Craig, I have enjoyed your videos and I am trying to convince myself to take the leap and get a pcnc. Since I only have 120v in my garage, I am looking at your 770 or the 440. I am leaning toward the 770. Is there anything you would do different now that the 440 is available? Keep up the good work! Byron
+Byron Porter - Thanks Byron! To me, the price difference isn't that much so I would still go for the 770. If you don't have much space or are only working on small parts then the 440 might work. Just remember that you need more working envelope then you think. You need room to go around a part and set zeros. Hope you get one. Thanks!
Very interesting and fast
+Kevin L - Thanks!
Why you're drill is chattering/rumbling is because you have to light of chip load on that drill you either need increase the feed or back off the rpm leave the feed the same. That drill I would guess needs .005 chip load
+Chief Machining - Unfortunately the Tormach 770 doesn't have the power for that kind of chip load in high and I can't keep changing the belt position. The only thing I can think of is to keep lowering the rpm while in high till just before the spindle stalls. I'm at 2500 rpm now. It will stall at 1200 because it will only be at 15 hertz.
+Craig's Machine Shop Then you need go back to using a high speed drill. Can you increase the feed at all you should be around 20 ipm
+m98custom12 - 20 IPM would be around 1.5 HP according to Gwizard. I only have 1 HP.
Have you tried a slower RPM for that drill feeding at 3 ipm say 1000 so your chipload is around .003 instead of .0011...Or you just kick the feed up to 9 ipm see if that helps.
+Joel Heaton - 1000 RPM in high gear puts the Tormach 770 at around 10 hz which would have no torque. I don't want to change the belt position in the middle of a part. That's why I switched to a carbide twist drill. I may try using a center drill all the way through since the part is so thin. Thanks.
where are you getting your speeds and feeds from?..i feel like your trying to go way to fast..which is why you had to lighten the depth of cut...with carbide I would use like 250 sfm and .0015 chip load per tooth and take the contour in 1 rough pass..then a finish pass 25% faster for both...and for the drill 100sfm .003 per rev per tooth..and peck .02 pecks .1 deep...then plunge...but thats just me...3.82XSFM÷(DIA)=RPM* RPM X CHIP LOAD X TEETH= FEED
It's the drill runout
The tips are breaking down.maybe ramp in may help the cutter
+Bigwingrider1800 - Yeah, I took all the lead-ins and out out for sake of speed. I will have to play with it. Thanks
that 770 is a beast.. what are you making if you don't mind me asking ?
Yeah. Hand hole covers for light poles.
130ipm in steel? Dang! ! I'm pushing it at 30ipm in aluminum.
+Crivo152 - Yeah, it surprised me! can't wait to see your mold!
Oh, it's coming soon.
Do you have to babysit this machine or in a production environment could you start the process and walk away?
The run times vary from 4-8 minutes. I usually debur/clean/stack prior parts and cut raw material while it is running.
What IPM would you recommend for wood? Say a .25" depth of cut?
There are a lot of factor involved like what kind of wood, HP rating and RPM of your mill. Have you tried Gwizard. They have a free trial. If you want to keep it simple then just start slow and get a feel for what it can do. Then increase it.
CENTER DRILL FIRST SHOULD STOP MOST OF THE RUMBLE THE RUMBLE IS THE TOOL DOES NOT CENTER ITSELF UNTIL IT EMBEDS ITSELF FULLY
+Ken Hendricks - I was trying to avoid using a center drill for time sake but might do so now that I am stacking the plates. Thanks!
Ken Hendricks Don’t use a center drill around all; that’s the wrong tool for the job. Center drills are for lathe work; the 60deg included angle means that the web of the drill will not engage before the margins, which will cost tool live and hole quality. A spot drill with an included angle closer to or larger than your drill point angle would be a better option. When using solid carbide drills; however, no pre-drilling operations are suggested, unless over 7xD.
How about climb milling?
+pmproducts - Yeah, I tried that. G-wizard keeps suggesting conventional also. Thanks.
NOW THAT I WATCHED YOUR WHOLE VIDEO YOU NEED A VACUMN PLATE FOR THESE PARTS
+Ken Hendricks - I have since then gone to 16 gauge steel and stack them 2-6 plates high with a bolt through the middle. I thought about a vacuum plate but thought it might not hold the hot rolled steel very well. Thanks.
if you want to stop that rumble try spot drill the hole first at moment its having to center itself
+Rick Bellamy - I was trying to save the tool change time but I don't want to rattle the mill apart. I will give it a try. Thanks!
bellacharge I don’t agree. No need to use a spot drill when using a solid carbide drill with a self-centering point grind. Spot drilling will often; but not always, add cycle time and cost tool life.
Yikes! Conventional cutting and end mill plunging. Try climbing and ramping to depth.
Yeah, that was awhile ago. I still conventional mill though because I mount the covers with only a center screw. Climb milling will spin the cover. I use 2D adaptive now.
The adaptive paths make machining life so much easier - with a lot less breaking things.
TRY CLIMB MILLING IT WILL GET RID OF THAT STEP AND YOU'LL GET ALLOT BETTER FINISH AND USE 3 FLUTE STUBBY END MILLS
+Lenny Sweet Not sure why but G-wizard keeps recommending conventional milling. I am using climb milling now. Finish isn't much of an issue on this part. I will check out the 3 flute. Thanks Lenny!
OMG!!! I don't even know what to say :D
+Dominik Lizak - Yeah. :-)
You bought a cutter for ~40$ then using only 1/10 of the flutelenght, throwing 9/10 new unused carbide away because you can't use it anymore.
TH-camrs should really read up about HSM on cnccookbook's website...
YOU ARE CONVENTIONALLY CUTTING IF YOU CLIMB CUT IT WILL CUT THE CHIP OFF
Thanks. I'm using adaptive clearing with single plates now.
I'm Sorry dude but it looks like you didn't get the point of high Speed Cutting. It doesn't mean Full woc cutting with an endmill at high feed rate. If you had used a tiny carbide Facemill that would count i guess :D
Hey, that was nearly 2 years ago. :-)
TOO HOT!
lol
Yeah, that was in my noob days. lol
Been there, still learning tho hah. Been about 2 years since i started running a HAAS.
Time for me to get something physically smaller that's mine and will fit in my garage lol.
Going for a 770.
What are your running settings now ? Feeds and speeds?
Depth of cuts ? .025-.050?
I ran a Haas once, Nice! Great, I love my 770!
I make the covers (CRS) at 40 IPM, 5000 RPM, .050 Optimal load, .25 DOC with a 1/4" 4 flute rougher. I like the YG1 X Speed
how to destroy your tools 101 right here. full slotting, way too high sfm in steel.
oh and i didnt even get to the plunging into steel with an endmill with no lead in part yet
Yeah, that was a while ago. I use adaptive now.