Give Combat More Depth in 5e Dungeons & Dragons
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 เม.ย. 2020
- Do you want DnD combat with more depth? TBH so do we. So today, we're talking about ways to give the fighter and the other melee and martial classes more detail and make playing them as Dungeons and Dragons characters more fun.
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Web DM so this is pre quarantine recorded or?
What about if everytime your damage is more than five you lose two points of movement
Sam Bro yes
Have you guys checked out Zweihander yet? I was surprised watching this video how much of this stuff is addressed in Zweihander's combat system. I wouldn't say it really bogs the combat down too much either.
Sam Bro- yep, from February. Not gonna break quarantine to shoot.
Jim should make a google doc where he says "from every rpg I've ever played, these are the best mechanics for combat, exploration, and role play I've seen" and then let someone else turn that into a game
PLEASE
1 year later.........
3 years...
I liked the subtle hint of defeat in Jim's voice when he said "that was the book that broke 2nd edition"
32:07 SURPRISE O-FACE!
I’m at that point in quarantine where I didn’t know it was Wednesday until I saw that you posted a new video.
Glad to help
I am lucky enough to have a game every Wednesday so I still remember the days of the week.
This comment has 69 likes. Nice.
"Alexander and the Day that blended into every other day like some Kafkaesque nightmare with no merciful end in sight"
Im at that point where I saw this and you convinced me it was Wednesday for a solid 10 seconds
I had a fighter once who spent years fighting goblinoids, so he learned the language specifically so he could curse at them. He named his mastif "Yeer Grash," which meant "eater of genitals" in goblin. 😄
Not to be confused with "beer trash", which means "I drank what?".
I am so going to steal that.
The beard has chosen another...
Jordan Stokes May it choose to don his face for weeks to come
th-cam.com/video/eiJWCJc4Oec/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/nYuOurhglz8/w-d-xo.html
@@keithkrummel9344 I was going to link the same thing!
There can be only one.
It is frustrating that D&D has such a dominant position in the market that most of the big RPG youtubers are unwilling to say "maybe try a different system, D&D isn't really built for this". WebDM are the realest dudes in the game.
If you want to realistically emulate melee combat then look into Mythras/Runequest 6th Edition.
Omg thank you. I've been thinking this for ages. I wish there were more videos/channels for TTRPG's in general and not just D&D.
Thank god that something else has talked about this. DND is far too overated, especially considering how limited it is as a game system, it doesn't have specific rules based around social/RP. Nevermind its drawn out and dull combat system.
@@fionewatson4931 - Does it *_need_* 'rules' for RP though? Isn't that the part of the game where you'd want freedom to play your character? Having rules for every single thing isn't necessarily a positive point. If there's a rule for everything you might as well play Pillars of Eternity or Divinity: Original Sin on the PC, because 'a rule for everything' is basically a video game engine.
@@TheMrVengeance an RPG system doesn't *need* rules for social encounters in the same way an RPG system doesn't *need* advanced combat rules complete with fighting styles, critical hit tables, and rules for how certain types of weapons interact with certain types of armor.
...and yet some people still want those things. Flone may have overstated their case, as many tend to do in youtube comments, but I think the central point is valid: groups should think about exactly what they want to get out of their RPG system because for a lot of campaign concepts D&D is far from the best system a group can use!
@@TheMrVengeance except a video game does not have a GM, which is the lynchpin of these types of games.
Having some systemization is fine, even encouraged, given this is not just roleplaying, but a roleplaying game. As the DM of my group, I prefer there to be surprised sometimes, even with the outcome, so I don't want to essentially DM Fiat my way through all social activities.
For D&D 5e, having checks for Insight and the charisma checks are good enough for these types of games in my opinion. If a game focused less on combat and more on social encounters, I'd expect the rules to reflect that.
Your thought on shields and avoiding damage is a rule set found in Pathfinder 2.
I was going to say the same. A few things they go over in this video are things I like about Pathfinder 2. Also the Brawler class from PF1 is pretty close to what they want out of a fighter brawler.
I like the weapon traits of PF2. It really makes weapon choice matter.
But instead of doing wooden and steel shields for the medium size shields, I think they should've done heater shields and round shields; also, what about the kite shield? It's the same size as a tower shield, just a different shape.
Web DM was talking about how mounted combat, THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!
They're outnumbered 15 to 1, and the battle's begun
I think you can sort of represent shield formation fighting with a row of soldiers with shields in front taking the dodge action and a second row behind them with reach weapons attacking. Disadvantage to hit high AC targets and you can't reach the enemies behind them. That might not be exactly what you're going for, but I think it's sort of a cool encounter idea.
Battle of the Bastards from Game of Thrones... that shield wall was terrifying.
Shield wall is def everyone using the protection fighting style with a shield!
and its pretty east to come up with a new type of shield that has the usual "+2 AC", but also a clause that interacts with cover. The best place homebrew can operate in situations like these is when you piecemeal pre-existing rules.
@@Thatguy-hl9on oh yeah you get the same result without a second row that way!
Taber McFarlin but with a second row you can block more attacks! The only thing is that it takes everyone’s reactions. But to be honest that seems perfectly fitting
Small note about taunting: it's true.
Even in simple competition fighting, as is my experience, psychology is a weapon; I can only imagine when your life depends on it how bad it can get.
(Yeah, I know, "In IRL [...]" points aren't always valid in RPG's, yadda yadda yadda, it's not just that ^^)
Taunting, also, is a powerful tool to deliver the RP of a character! What to they say? What do they do? What's their demeanor and so on!
Federico Gavioli Agreed. I’m not sure it needs a mechanic. If the players are role playing, taunting should come naturally. When I DM, my intelligent villains almost always taunt. Often it leads the PCs to do suboptimal things because they get angry and want revenge.
@@mrmaat then you are awesome, friend!
The "Game" does not need a taunting mechanic, sure. Fun fact: there already is a taunting mechanic!
The Complete Armorer's Handbook from DM's Guild is a good start for equipment durability and upgrades (plus it has Rune Magic)
Fun magic item idea could be versatile weapons like bloodborne. A sword that becomes a greatsword with reach. A whip that becomes a shortsword. A crossbow that becomes an axe. Could be fun
Or the Bard’s favorite weapon: the Axephone
I had that idea for a weapon that did that with lightning.
Could be a quarterstaff, a longsword, lance, or a whip...think Darth Maul's light staff; but more weapon choices wrapped in.
@@AlexanderBaird
Rockstars didn't call their guitars "axes" for no reason.
Pathfinder 2e tries to adress some of these issues.
For example shields have to raised for protection(AC) and can a reaction absorb some damage, but too much damage to shields can break them. And on later levels, players can use a weapons special ability(like tripping with a scythe) in combat.
Though i havent been personally able to try it's effectiveness, at least a system is already in place and could be further modified if needed.
You can use the trip trait at any level it just lets you attempt a trip without having a free hand and less you add your weapons potency rune to the trip if your weapon has a potency rune
Beyond that it also has the Feint action to make the target flat footed against your melee attacks, and the demoralise action to make them frightenend.
The Gamemastery guide also has a Dueling subsystem.
As someone running a 2e game at the moment the sheild mechanics have been the best development for my table.
Human Fighter? Sounds like my idea of a good time.
Half-Orc Fighter here. We're the green-skinned counterpart. And I legit took Orcish fury at 4rth level because why not. First game with the character (lvl 5 start) I crit, I roll an extra die (because Half-Orc), later I go down but no I don't and I land the reaction attack, and I get to add the Orcish Fury's once per long rest extra damage die. Good stuff.
@@destroyerinazuma96 fyi, that extra damage die recharges on a short rest.
I find the symmetric placement of the 1st edition core books juxtaposed by the 5th edition core books aesthetically pleasing.
That intro had me dying! 😂 "Ive never moved to my right, I dont get it!"
I always love to use flail and/or trident. They are "not meta" but i just love them.
Also chanting and music is the only reason I mixed 1 level of bard with my paladin to run with battle drums!
Pruitt and Jim are slowing becoming the other person.
Phillip Jokar Jim just gave Pruitt the beard mimic.
There can be only one...
...neckbeard.
Oh god, just mentioning a sling gave me flashbacks. Getting to play alongside a halfling fighter who was specialised in using a sling in Pathfinder 1e. She's a god damned monster
Mister Pyramid I’m still not used to there being editions of pathfinder.
Slings do crap damage, should be like RQ 1d8.
Sounds like Master of Magic, where the humble handling slingers were fairly weak, until you boosted them with life magic and turned them into combat monsters.
@@simonburling3762 I do this IF the slinger is using Bullets (versus stones).
I would love a class that really leans into the improvised weapons like a Jackie Chan style (without the comedy) where you go in unarmed and use the enemies weapons and/or just random stuff to kill them
You can go human variant and take tavern brawler and multiclass fighter and monk but it would be nice to have a dedicated class for it
Drunken master was exactly like that in 3.5. It was all about improvised weapons.
I recommend the Pugilist class for sale on DMs Guild and DriveThru RPG! It gets proficiency with improvised weapons as a class feature and the Fisticuffs die is functionally similar to the Monk's Martial Arts die in that it can be applied in place of the dice listed for the weapon. Give it a peek, cheers!
@@ralanbek95 There's a couple different Pugilist classes on DMs Guild, I assume you're referring to the Benjamin Hoffman version? Probably my favorite of them.
Nigel, that’s something that I homebrew into Drunken Master: proficiency in improvised weapons.
All of my frustrations with dnd combat have been addressed in this video
I know nothing about 2nd Edition D&D but the end of the intro was hilarious.
Cavalry with a quiver of javelins. Like Alexander the Great's light cavalry.
I'm not huge on voices, but playing Mickie would be so much fun. "Save your breath for cooling pies."
Arguably, Ali did take a few levels of Monk. He did, after all, find religion.
Muhammed Ali is a multiclass Monk/bard/fighter
Boxers are monks period, you ever try to fight a boxer? It's like fighting a magician if you've never fought a day in your life
Ehhh. The case can be made for, depending on the boxer, fighter, monk, or even barbarian.
Really pumps me up for my town’s watch siege module.
Everyone is a lvl1 fighter with base guard stats, race, one mental stat boost + a custom feat.
Higher risk and more tactical when fighting hobgoblins and orcs.
I actually love high risk, lower world stakes.
I wouldn't mind options for Fighters that allow for stances that have mechanical benefits and drawbacks. Something like a high stance that sacrifices some AC for an extra + or 2 to damage rolls. A mid stance that increases AC but gives no bonus to damage beyond the base. A low stance that increases your chances to hit but does slightly less damage. Just some things off the top of my head.
I love stances. They could be a bonus action to enter and could give martial classes something to use their Concentration for.
Love your videos guys...
As someone who has played DnD for almost 40 years... Almost every issue y'all brought up was addressed in 1st edition. Maybe not in the "best" manner, but it was there if you wanted to use it.
Your shield talk got me giving the pathfinder 2e shield actions another look.
I like the idea that as you level you unlock aspects of the use of the weapon you chose from the beginning. You're mastering them as you go from a punk lvl 1 to 5 or 7 and so on.
A druid with a sling and Magic Stone cantrip can do a lot of damage. As can a monk with a DM that allows a whip as a monk weapon. I've played both and found them very effective.
3:35 "Actually, a foil isn't a weapon at all. Improvised Weapon, at best. I wouldn't bring it to any kind of fight."
- The Guy With the Backsword
Seriously, though, as someone involved in HEMA, traditional East Asian martial systems, and stage combat, being too in depth DOES slow down the story. My D&D fighting is largely in description, a lot of "This is what my character wants to do, what do I roll to try it?"
5e, for me, anyway, is free-form enough that, if one gets creative with the stats, description should be enough to describe combat styles, with the occasional Feat to enhance whatever fighting style you want your character to display.
Even the weapons don't need a lot of expansion, really. Basket-hilted backsword, for instance. Seems awfully specific, but depending on how you want to treat it, just use rapier from the PHB and change it from Piercing to Slashing damage.
And one of my favorite house rules: Rogues are proficient with Shields. Sword and buckler, from whence the term Swashbuckler comes, is VERY Rogue!
For things like spears and whips, if you want to enhance these, being able to do so with a single good feat is a good idea, a tidy little investment, but keep it simple. Creativity and speed at the gaming table are key, and a fight that turns into a round-by-round lecture on combat styles is no fun.
And, of course, THAT is what the game is about.
Yes I'm all for summing up a skilled spearman superiority with a simple feat like the UA spear mastery. Otherwise it can get a tad frustrating. I'll look up Legend of the Five Rings I think they handle spears, halberds and naginata better than DnD does, if one's looking for a bit more realism that is.
@Colin Deal Sounds like a good mancatcher. Don't forget Reach!
You’re right! A foil is not a weapon, it’s an oversized toothpick that bends.
To be fair I fence so I have prejudice.
Honestly, I'd just say give the spear reach. Using it one handed means you use 1d6 instead of a pike's 1d10, and it doesn't have the heavy feature. It can still be thrown, etc. This means the shield wall and hoplite styles can be used.
I dunno... I don't think fighting needs to be complicated.. but giving abilities tied to weapon types might give martial charactes more options rather than grapple or attack which would be nice
In my games I consider Shields as half cover against ranged attacks, and I use my own reach combat rules, like:
Weapons with Reach have +1 AC bonus against daggers and smaller weapons like short swords. Opponents with shields remove that bonus.
Another combat rule I use is that Prone creatures must make an Athletics save to get up, in a successful one they spend half their speed, in a failed one they spend all of it (getting up isn't graceful).
I'm also testing a BIND Property for weapons based on the Net restraining ability. It will help to improve weapons like the Wip, Flail and some exotic Hook like weapons.
Yeah I wanna hear more about Jim's degree and how he could work that into his games
This is exactly what I’ve been looking for. WebDM, you guys and the whole team are the best
This topic reminds me of why I abandoned D&D for games with more detailed combat. I found games such as RuneQuest, Rolemaster, and GURPS which gave me more of the historical feel I wanted.
Unpopular opinion: i like Shadowrun for the same reason. Once you get through the stereo-instruction presentation, it's a remarkably versatile system who's rules can be extrapolated to various situations. Example: there are rules for bullet penetration through walls. Will you use these all the time? probably not. However, when a player wants to use a body as a shield or, better still, when a player wants to shoot a person through another person, you can extrapolate the rules for shooting through walls and apply them to shooting through people very easily. In a game like D&D where there aren't a lot of rules, yes, maybe it moves faster than a game like Shadowrun, but when someone comes up with an outlandish set of conditions and a similarly outlandish set of actions to perform in those conditions, having a big tool kit is much better than only having a screwdriver.
@@kdolo1887 Same here but for Cyberpunk. I remember when Shadiversity did a video about how combat is misrepresented in game statistics I wrote a wall of text about how there are plenty of systems that do exactly what he suggested.
@@kdolo1887 - I think the point with D&D though is that it gives you as DM the freedom to decide that for yourself. Sure having a niche rule like bullet penetration in the book might be nice, but if it doesn't come up much, or it's only one way of many in which it comes up (like your example), isn't it more 'elegant' to leave that rule out and let the DM decide? I'd rather have a succinct/compact rules system for all the core stuff and the most used circumstances. And when the players come up with outlandish stunts, decide how that works as it happens. You can never preempt all the nutty stuff players do with a rule in the rulebook.
I now need an entire episode where Jim fixes mounted combat in 5e.
This definitely needs a Part 2.
I absolutely need a mounted combat episode! It’s always felt like the missing piece of dnd
This is why I play pathfinder; there are archetypes, feats, and equipment for everything they're asking for.
Miles Matheson right as i listening, i was like pathfinder
has that, has that, has that, has that
Might have to look into Pathfinder, in that case...
18:12 *high level HP has entered the chat*
For a wider variety of weapons, I like the options offered in Middle Finger of Vecna, especially as they use it in their Complete Craftsman class.
Black Knight vs Green Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail could be a good example of how D&D combat should go. It isn't just weapon swings, they use their weapons to block, they use the pommels of their swords, they're punching and kneeing and kicking each other.
I'm honestly surprised that there aren't even defensive weapon use options aside from the Defensive Duelist feat, which requires a finesse weapon.
(yeah, that skinny little rapier is totally going to parry that greatsword the berserker champion is swinging at you)
One of my biggest issues with DnD has been armor class. Armor was never meant to make you harder to hit (in fact it usually slows you down enough to make you easier to hit), it was meant to make you harder to hurt. That's a big difference and a very important one IMO. Shields were meant to make you harder to hit, specifically, they were meant to intercede between the target and the blow. I think I may experiment with this and let you all know how it plays out.
I know what you mean. I've haven't played the game, but Iron Kingdoms (the RPG sister game to Warmachine) has 2 defensive stats.
Defense: the number that rolled needs to be exceeded to hit a target.
Armor: the number subtracted from the damage roll to determine the hp lost. If its 0 or lower, no damage
The problem is it would take a complete over haul of the AC and HP of DnD to get something like that to work
Shea Tanner HP in D&D is abstract anyway. I describe to players that loss of HP when at 50% ore more reflects nearly being injured and the stamina needed to oppose being injured.
I agree that it's odd that dodging and plate increase your defense in the same way but it just always struck me as a difference in how you describe failed attacks
AC is an abstraction, it only means harder to hit if you're talking about the DEX bonus (which has nothing to do with the armour itself, that's the character's ability to dodge). Armour bonuses to AC represents a weapon bouncing off the armour it hit, not that you magically get super fast and hard to hit when you're wearing full-plate...
@@CrashSable That's how I was thinking about it too, it's just too easy to think it means a miss. The way I generally want to rule is that an attack roll below 10 is a straight up miss. Anything 10 + dex modifier is a dodge (a +5 dex is still added to an armorless character). A higher roll that is negated by adding the armor then technically hits, but the damage is absorbed as the armor glances the blow away or makes the blow ineffective, and therefore does no damage. Some times I even rule the blow was deflected with the weapon. It's a lot to explain, so it's easier to just say, "missed."
In one group I'm in our fighter went to a glass blower and had them grind down shards of glass into a fine powder and fill a bag with it. In certain combat situation, such as a fight with a basilisk, she would throw a cloud of powdered glass in their eyes to blind them and do a little bit of damage. It was really creative and has helped in some tough situations.
My Thief used to do this before their untimely demise.
So she was using bag of sand.
@@mrmaat Sand is much coarser and more granular than powdered glass making it less effective at entering and sticking to the eye.
mr. ma'at sort of except since it was glass the dm had it do damage every round and it was harder for the enemy to recover.
I like the idea of demanding more descriptive moves and react with dice throws more reactionarily than strict turns:
every attack is countered with a dice roll, depending by the description of the attack you put a modifier in your head and the defense roll can either roll high enough to allow a retaliation or the contact ends and turn shifts. A lower than average roll can be punished with a disadvantage on the retreat against retaliation while a very successful attack can be rewarded with the attack on the next turn gaining an advantage against that same enemy.
I'll be honest, I'm usually too lazy to like videos. But, the random Community Christmas outro ... I had to come back and like. Thx for all you guys do.
Spears are a very strong choice as a weapon.
They are the best way to combine Polearm Master, a shield and the duelling fighting style.
A spear with duelling hits just as hard on average as a glaive or halberd.
And with the bonus AC from the shield you become a monster in melee.
The shield part and cultural combat styles are very relevant to my martian campaign. It has several warring cultures with real world roots including vikings, spartans, and knights. I have struggled to homebrew shield mechanics for shield walls that would actually work mechanically in d and d 5e. So far for spartan shield formations i have 5 or more shield-weilders with one magic shield that turns them into one creature for attacks with an AC determined by their numbers and shield size, with a temporary hit point bonus equal to one hit die from each member combined.
So far for spartan shield formations i have 5 or more shield-weilders with one magic shield that turns them into one creature for attacks with an AC determined by their numbers and shield size, with a temporary hit point bonus equal to one hit die from each member combined, that treats area affects as though they can only originate next to the "sphere" or "directional partial sphere" of temporary hit points that the formation has. The formation acts as one creature, with a number of potential attacks equal to half the number of members within range to attack. Only with spears, javalins, or pikes. With additional options for individuals within the shield formation that are not actively part of it. Basically a human swarm that deteriorates into their individual parts after the temporary hit points are gone and/or a certain number of the members are no longer keeping the formation.
The idea of a "fog of war" type of effect can still perfectly be achieved if done in the context of a large battle. When there's 20+ enemies and/or allies, things that happen across the battlefield won't necessarily be heard or seen until it matters.
For example, say your PC's lead an army into battle with another army, and the enemy manages to flank the PC's forces. You don't have to tell the PC's shit! Just say "there's some kind of commotion on the west flank," and then two or three rounds later bam! "enemies from your left!"
Now obviously this doesn't work for smaller fights but I think you should have all the info when you are just fighting a group smaller than 10.
*edit: additionally if you are using a battle map then perhaps only represent the fight closest to the PC's. Have other battles be going simultaneously while the PC's engage a certain group, and perhaps situations in the other battles cause the PC's to need to change area, ("Let's reinforce the north front") and the battle map can be adjusted accordingly to the new fight.
I'm one of the more terrifying DMs in our games because, I DM so rarely, nobody knows my tells, and one of my favorite things to do is deprive the party of tactical knowledge that their characters can't pick up on. I'm probably the only member of our playgroup that gets everybody's AC and Passive Perception and Investigation Scores at the start of the session. They don't know what the monster rolled, they just know it sure as shit hit them, and hard. I use the din of combat to my advantage, and the obscurement of day/night cycles to screw with visibility.
The Palladium system had an interesting way to handle wear and tear on armor. In D&D, it would work like this. Your armor has a certain level of HP, called Structural Damage Capacity, or SDC. Lets assume you're playing a semi-dex fighter with breastplate, 14 dex and a shield. 12 natural AC from the base 10 plus 2 from Dex, plus 4 from the breastplate to 16, plus 2 for the shield for a total AC of 18.
So, an enemy swings at the fighter. On a 1-11 it's a complete whiff. On 12-13 he's struck on the shield, the second line of armor, and on 14-17 they're struck on the breastplate. On a 12-13 the shield takes SDC damage, on a 14-17 the breastplate takes SDC damage, on an 18+ the character takes damage to their hit points.
Everyone hated this, because it slowed down play. Nothing you're asking for in this video is ever going to be in the core rules because it slows down play, and the current TTRPG Culture is all about speeding up play. Homerule it all you want, but you can forget seeing it in anything official. If anything, I see a future where 6th Edition makes things even simpler. It's the never-ending argument of Simulacrum of Reality vs. Rapidity of Play. You're never going to get both, they exist on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Just use the object AC and HP table.
That last thing about duels reminds me of classic samurai films, where most of the fight is just the two characters standing there, watching, waiting, looking for the right moment before it all ends in a single strike. Makes me want to do a samurai campaign even more now.
It is Wednesday my dudes
Happy Wednesday!
@@WebDM That's Webdmnedsday!
aaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
I remember i made a warforged juggernaut champion fighter, he had a blacksmith background working for a forgemaster previously, we were doing SKT and i saw the fire giant juggernaut so when we went to one of the great dwarf cities i requested they made a shield of similar design and from then on he was a moving fortress eventually at lvl 9 he had a 25 ac using his massive spiked shield to bludgeon and pierce he had shield master as well so spells like fireball or even dragon breath were never a big issue
Consider trying out Pathfinder 2e if you're looking for more depth in your combat / fighters.
Diego Lobato or looking for more depth in character choice and creation, class variation, well written adventures etc
This is such a good point. Rocky Balboa could punch out a lot of D&D monsters, but definitely not a monk
I still think this is best done with the monk. People get trapped in the flavor, but a trained boxer spends just as much time in the gym and training ring as a monk does in the monetary.
Rocky would 100% be a strength based monk who cranks str and con. Leaving dex at like 12-14
And dumping wisdom and intelligence XD
Rocky is easy to hit, hard to keep down
You both make good points about flavor vs mechanics. I was mechanically thinking rocky definitely has second wind, and perhaps action surge. Maybe hes a fighter monk multiclass haha I'd allow it in my campaign
The Deck of Many came out with a set of magic items called "The Griffon's Saddlebag" and one of the items in that set is called Starmetal Shield. It's a legendary shield that, part of it's ability lets you make a ranged attack with the shield, and it can bounce off the target and hit up to 3 targets. It only does 2d8 slashing, but it does return to you after. It's not perfect but it would let you somewhat play captain america.
2d8 is actually pretty huge! Does it do that much for each target?
Fog of war: Each player and the DM secretly writes down the actions they will take that round. Roll initiative at the start of each round. Players are committed to the actions they wrote down.
surfboard sword? Thats is my kind of combat!
I am maintaining a shrine to Jim's beard in the hope that it may one day return
At 9:50 Jim talks about wanting punches, kicks, etc. To be a thing in DnD, 1E Oriental Adventures martial arts styles accomplish this rather well.
I think the first time our table started adding fighter or martial options was when we faced an enemy shield wall. As it worked there, if two shielded enemies were sides by side their AC went up by another two.
Since then we’ve started drawing and throwing daggers as a single bonus action, given shield walls half or three quarters if an action was spent on being a shield wall, and we have used some of the UA material like spear master. We will be trying more stuff out too.
Giving a non magical boost via their voice is represented by the inspiring leader feat, so, it would make sense to have more.
I think we would role play a taunt like an ability check, which would normally take your whole action, though, a feat or feature that allows you to use a bonus action to do it would also be nice. The rouge inquisitor does that with perception and investigation already.
Enjoyed the show!
If we really want to dig into realism, then longer reach is (generally) better when it comes to weapons.
That's a big reason why most historical armies chose spears and polearms as their primary weapon rather than fists or daggers. You can find counter examples like the Romans, but these were the exception, not the rule. They compensated for shorter reach with specific tactics involving shields and javelin throwing. Most swords weren't your first choice of weapon on the battlefield. The advantage to a sword is it's a lot more portable than a spear, making it a great secondary weapon or self-defense weapon. They get over-represented in fiction mostly because they're cool.
If you watch at 1.5x speed it becomes apparent just how frequent Jim repeats the last thing that Pruitt says. And it's comedy gold.
Pathfinder has brawler, shield champion, and phalanx fighter, exactly what you're looking for.
Just sayin' :)
Here's an option for you guys based on the Mythras/Runequest 6 system. Give the fighter a choice of a list of special maneuvers based on weapon type and fighting style and he gets to select ONE from that list IF he rolls 5+ OVER what was needed to hit. Have another list for Critical rolls. Examples the Special Maneuvers could include...
Trip Opponent
Disarm Weapon
Stun Target (Bludgeoning and HTH)
Knockback upon the Hit (maces and hammers)
Hook Shield (removing its AC bonus for a combat round)
Overextend Opponent (giving them DISADVANTAGE)
Outmaneuver Opponent (giving you ADVANTAGE)
Pin Weapon
Enhanced Parry (roll Weapon Damage and reduce your opponent's damage by that number)
Entangle Opponent
Close On Opponent [with short weapons like the Dagger] (Gives your opponent DISADVANTAGE until they move)
Sunder Weapon or Armor (for Axes and Hammers) Every weapon and shield having a Durability from 1 to 5 with
each Sunder reducing it by 1 or 2 (for crits)
Impale (for Piercing weapons) with the weapon doing max damage + rolled damage AND sticking in the target
Slash (for Slashing weapons) with the weapon doing rolled damage + rolled damage and stuck in the target
Crush (for Bludgeoning weapons) doing the max damage and STUNNING the target for 1D3 rounds
Your opponents would get Saving throws for several of these effects and these would occur in addition to the Battlemaster's class feats.
I really like the type of character you discuss around 9:02, a tavern brawler fighter type. 3.5 had a Prestige Class called the Reaping Mauler, that was all about this type of thing. Get spiked armor, grapple and pin opponent, thrash a bunch, profit.
It would be nice to see some of the Prestige Class ideas of previous version make a 5e appearance. I know Arcane Archer made it as a subclass, so it'd be cool to get more variety over the years
I suppose if you wanted to do taunt mechanically you can do performance check vs. wisdom save of the target. Another thing I'd add to the list is the environment: kicking barrels, dropping chandeliers, cutting off ropes, letting loose a herd of animals. It makes the battlefield more alive.
In my own game: I ended up inspired by the weapon feats and totally revamping how martial combat works. I started by writing weapon feats for all the weapons and missing fighting styles as options but then I realized I wanted to do something special. I revamped the entire system taking out Fighting Styles and Weapon Feats and recombining them into something I called “Weapon Masteries” which are awarded at the same time a class would usually get a fighting style or an extra attack.
It basically assure that as a martial class you get the choice of weapon, armour or fighting style that you have mastered, you are proficient with all weapons but you mastered this one, and much like the good weapon feats that gives you small active abilities that you can use in combat for slight edges. It worked really well and interestingly, the best element of it was my players started using weapons they might not have otherwise, I had a spear and shield user, a whip and dagger user, a slinger, and it felt great without adding too much rule bloat.
Have you written it all down? It sounds really interesting and I'd love to read it :)
Wow. One of your best videos. So much info to use here!
Loved the video. 7th sea 1st edition was the best combat system I have ever found. It covers A LOT of what you discussed.
"And one more for comedic affect" *throws kitchen sink*
"Perfect"
Agreed about the "class warfare." For my part, I'd love to see a Dex-based barbarian subclass, whose rage lends to a fast, frenzied battle-rush.
PS: Am currently playing a Dex-barbie, and it's great for her to-hit and Unarmoured Defence, but renders the class' iconic centerpiece (rage) almost moot.
Really enjoyed this video guys. Little different to hear you getting into the mechanical pros and cons but still very web DM. As always thanks for a great show
You guys do a good job of covering your discussions as they relate to most RPGs - in the sense that your ideas can applied anywhere. You do focus on D&D obviously, but you could point to other interesting systems. In this case, namely Pathfinder. That's a system that has really well fleshed-out rules for most of the stuff you're talking about here. Just thought I'd point to other resources!
I wanna know more about "Combat and Tactics" The book that broke 2nd Edition. It was mentioned off the cuff but being someone who started at 3.5 i'd love to know more about the older editions, what they did great, what they sucked at, weirdness, etc
I like DravenSwiftbow's retrospective series on D&D editions over the years. He does include some of his own opinions and contemporary experiences (where relevant), but it's a good overview. th-cam.com/video/-R2OY7T0PSw/w-d-xo.html
One thing I do with how I run combat is that weapon type has an effect on how non-lethal takedowns happen. If you use bludgeoning, they're gonna be knocked unconscious and will probably have some mental problems down the line. If you use a slashing or piercing, they're gonna go into shock and probably have a severed tendon, crippling them.
Second edition Combat and Tactics had "pummeling" and shield specialization.
You already talked about tavern brawler, add two weapon fighting and you can make bonus attacks with your shield at 1d4 damage. A fighter with two weapon fighting style adds their strength. If you grab shield master as well you've got a pretty versatile shield user. Make them an eldritch knight and bond with their shield and they can throw it (with proficiency) and have it return. You may not have a lot of variety, but it's all there; you just have to take all the pieces. A level 6 human eldritch knight has access to all of these
Love the Community reference there at the end
I like the damage system in Mutants and Masterminds. Instead of traditional HP, you have a toughness stat and all damage forces a toughness check based on the level of the attack that hit. If you fail, you take a toughness penalty and possibly more effects depending on how bad you fail. You don't go down until you fail the toughness check by a certain amount (4 degrees of failure specifically).
Runequest is has some of these rules, its a great game.
Vastly under rated online
Differs a bit from edition to edition thought. RuneQuest 6 (now Mythras) does this excellently. MRQII does it to some degree. The most recent RuneQuest I believe has simplified combat a lot, but I haven't played it myself.
Maybe for the breaking equipment rule something like this: damage is always rolled whether or not things hit. Then on all attacks that don’t hit half of that damage (assuming the rest of the damage was dodged or maybe take all the damage idk) is allocated to the health of armor and equipment. You can break it up between different pieces of armor probably after the battle, but I can see during the battle a good way to make things feel more involved. Then certain damage types do more to certain pieces. Like slashing does full damage to cloth armor and wooden equipment or piercing gets the same for heavier armors. Only certain pieces of armor can be repaired on short or long rests but only so much and sometimes you might have to give up things like using hit dice or only refilling half as many spell slots. On a long rest you can repair your armor more but you have to take a point of exhaustion. And then things like plate armor can only be repaired at a blacksmiths. Then certain magic items will lose their enchantments after a certain amount of damage and you either need to take it to an expert to get repaired or have a magic user with certain skill sets, but you can still repair the armor itself normally. Of course if this magic user has armor too they might not be able to repair their armor because they’re helping you. Then you can even have things like if they drop their armor off to get repaired what pieces are being repaired? How much are they left wearing? What does this mean when that business deal goes south later that day? Do they have backup armor to wear? Another thing with magical weapons is that maybe if they do a certain damage type they’re immune to that type of damage? Depending on the weapon probably. Then if certain armor officers resistance to certain damage types it’s immune to it? Idk this might be an interesting system I gotta flesh out.
Y'alls uncanny ability to upload a video just when I need it never fails to amaze me. This is perfect food for thought for the Hobgoblin Warlord I'm about to unleash on my friends homebrew setting.
Excellent....
*steeples fingers*
Pathfinder 2E touches some combat depth that you both talked about. There are Barbarian feats that enhance unarmed combat, basically turning them into a raging brawler. Do a multi-class with monk and you are really cooking with dynamite! Using a shield no longer gives you a passive AC bonus, instead, you spend an action (out of 3 actions per character, per turn) to reduce the damage taken at the expense of your shield's hitpoints. Your shield breaks if it runs out of HP, and magic shields have more hardness & HP. The Champion class (Paladin) gets some pretty awesome shield feats that really makes the use of shields dynamic, at least from the look of things...
I haven't run a game yet, and I am about halfway through reading the core rulebook. So far I like what I'm seeing, but does anyone have experience running a PF 2E game thus far? Good? Bad? So-so?
Edit: Joined the Web Demons, thanks for the always fantastic content!
HeathenHammer8 I both run pf2e and play and it’s great for both. There’s some rules like grapple, trip etc which take a while to remember but they make combat dynamic and enjoyable. Characters are unique and have loads of choice and there is heaps to do in non combat parts of the game through mechanics for downtime and exploration.
@@aaronjohnston5917 Thanks for your take on the matter. I am definitely excited to give PF2E a whorl :)
I appreciate the community reference at the end 😆
Thank you, thank you, thank you, so much for making this video. As someone that has been making/using medieval armor and weapons for 30 years, I've developed an understanding for how they really work. I love that the two of you address the same issues I've had with RPGs. Shields really are more dynamic than many games make them out to be. Most weapons are basically the same and can be used much like another.
Travis and I are one in the same. My favorite intro yet.
Two things: 1 - I have always wanted to play my fighter as a Spartan (Spear and Shield), but it is currently ineffective. 2 - Fantasy Grounds Unity has a Fog of War so you can only see what your character can.
Not a perfect solution but if you combine polearm master with the dueling style you can get damage that I'm pretty sure is a big improvement over longsword and shield because the +2 damage also applies to the d4 bonus attack
"that's the book that broke 2nd edition"
I just let out the longest disappointed exhale.
yes. yes it was.
a dark time indeed
I think Jim forgot about half-swording when fighting up close with a great sword.
I've been looking for this comment.
ok but half-swording works differently to full swinging the sword if you decide to half sword at my table id drop the damage sense it was used in real life not for power but finesse. so in stead of 2d6 d8 or d6 sense a sword tip douse not have the power of glave its closer to a spear. thats my 2 cents on that discussion.
@@dicorockhimself there is no possible way when half swording your trust will be a powerful as a spear
@@kaiceecrane3884 yeap so a d6 if you speak of D&D terms
@@kaiceecrane3884 what you mean when thrusting like that its the same serfice area ypur average spear gots
Need an episode on tournaments and jousting now.
Symbaroum has a cool system, where you can skill different type of weapons (spearmaster, daggermaster etc.) and each weapon has a little skilltree of three different, situational bonuses. Like with spears, you always get a free attack, if someone without a spear or long weapon enters combat with you. Even shields get that type of threatment. Where if you are using a Sword and Board mechanic, you can attack with your shield as well. Combined with bonuses to your AC, shove actions and buffs for bystanding friendly PCs/NPCs, Shields are very powerful in Symbaroum, without bogging everything down to a halt.
Battle master plus tavern brawler feat covers most of what you've said with fighting style. You can homebrew 2 fighters standing together with shields halve their damage from fireballs if detonated in front of them and those standing 10 or less behind them take reduced or no damage. 3 shield fighters would reduce damage by 3/4, etc.
UA had a Class Variants article a while back, that included "Unarmed Fighting" as a Fighting Style Fighters et al could take, that allowed one to do more damage with unarmed strikes (even better than Tavern Brawler, though you don't get the improvised weapons).
Can anyone find the dueling rules Jim was talking about? It sounds like it would be perfect for a roleplay encounter
@The Coward Liberius that's sounds like a good idea.
CON saves to avoid exhaustion starting at 5 and going up by one every round
A DEX check opposed by their attack roll if they miss to get an opportunity attack.
Make armoured AC down one level (heavy > medium > light) and make Plate Type armor resistant to slashing, and piercing and Mail Type armor resistant to slashing damage and take a -2 (medium armour) or -5 (heavy armor) penalty to attack rolls to overcome that.
Maybe use a reaction to make a dex check vs attack roll to block with a shield.
He specifically called out Riddle of Steel, but what he and Pruitt mentioned as lacking (wanting more options like Taunting) Burning Wheel or more specifically its streamlined cousin Mouse Guard offers. Attack/Defend/Feint/Maneuver are also specifically presented in such a way as to be general for many types of conflict (eg. argument, chase, fight, negotiation, journey, speech, or war), so it may be something well-suited to what you need for your roleplay encounter.
Jay Williams I was about to suggest the Mouse Guard conflict system for duels, that could be really cool!
To be fair, 2e Combat and Tactics was awesome. The book that arguably broke 2e was Skills and Powers.
Thanks as always guys. Keep up the great vids. Stay safe and happy.
Same to you as well!
I feel like talking shit to a goblin would count less as intimidation and more like diplomacy as you end up talking shop with the little blighter...
I would agree with the phalanx fighting vs. fireball discussion, except that there’s text in Fireball that specifies that it goes around corners.