Handling Controversies in the Church - Michael Lofton
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Michael's channel: / @reasonandtheology
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:01:30 - Testimony
00:11:30 - Suspicion
00:17:50 - Suan's Position on Pope Francis
00:19:23 - Harmonization
00:21:13 - Religious Submission of Intellect and Will
00:28:35 - Cultural Background
00:31:03 - Fear
00:33:37 - Charism of Safety
00:39:48 - "Safe Error"?
00:53:38 - What difference does Safety make?
00:55:31 - New Testament
01:04:00 - Answering Eastern Orthodoxy
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Facebook: / intellectualcatholicism
Suan Sonna is a Baptist convert to Catholicism who is dedicated to curating the best Catholic intellectual content on philosophy, politics, and theology. He is also passionate about engaging people outside of the Catholic tradition on issues relevant to the Church. - บันเทิง
No matter how much much we dislike Lofton because of his demeanor, his takes are spot on as he literally reads the primary sources for you as they are lol.
This is quite literally my exact opinion. The man can get condescending to opponents sometimes (quite frankly, I struggle with this sin myself), but his info seems pretty spot on to me.
As you have said. He shows you the facts. Even if people dislike him because he is “uncharitable” he is at least fighting to keep Catholics inside the Catholic Church, he is fighting to stop misinformation, and he is also defending the Pope and the magisterium when defense to the Vicar of Christ is due, I know he also has valid criticisms towards the Vatican, and the Holy Father, and that’s fair. I guess he might be tired of fighting against so many dissenters, that may be the reason why he seems uncharitable to some people, and even if he is tired, that’s no excuse, but he is a sinner like you and me, he is not perfect, and again I think he’s doing a great job for the Church, and I value that, and respect that, and the best we can do is pray for him so God may give him strength to keep fighting for Catholic Church.
It's a pride issue. He reads the primary sources in order to gain "superior knowledge" making him feel better and more important than others. Then he gets joy by presenting them arrogantly with condescension further puffing himself up. I listen to him just long enough to know where to find the primary sources and then read them myself.
@@ninjason57 I think that’s just a projection. You and I have no earthy idea if he does what he does on TH-cam out of pride. Please reserve that kind of judgment
Pope francis is a raging heretic. To refer to any human being as Holy Father is blasphemy.
This was excellent. Thank you!
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxyit’s a hypothetical example. He is meaning that if the church did teach this, anyone believing it would not be in danger of going to heaven. It’s not a big deal in other words. The church then could reverse this teaching and say the previous teaching is an error, but it would not be an error that is at the level of heresy. Part of church teaching is that it will not teach anything that endangers the soul. That is the basis for what Michael Lofton is saying here.
@lionboy4427 you asked for an explanation, but by your reply, it is evident you were not sincere. And then to top it off,, you slandered the Thomistic Institute.
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy This is the problem with your opinion you have copied and pasted at least five times. You are assuming it is heresy to say Moses didn't write the first five books. We do know there were other authors of certain passages within these books, look up Documentary hypothesis. There were passages that were not written until after he died. It's rather hard to write about your own death. He can be said to have written some or most of them, but not every verse. That means we have some additions to Scripture, though the Old Testament if read hyper-literally would say we should not add to Scripture. You are creating a contradiction with your opinion.
Either way, this hypothetical example would not be heresy, as it has nothing to do with Christian Salvation. It isn't rejecting God. It isn't rejecting Jesus. It isn't encouraging sin. It's just saying someone either did or didn't write a book in the Bible. This would be like saying it is heresy to say Luke didn't write the Gospel of Luke. It has nothing to do with salvation either way.
I'll even pose a Protestant question on you. Where in the Bible does it say your salvation is dependent on believing Moses wrote these books? Where does God say He will throw you into hell for rejecting Moses as the author???? Or from a Catholic view, where in Catholic history was it ever anathema to say Moses didn't write these books? You need to prove this is heresy. Catholics do not take the Bible hyper-literally. Your comment that it is spitting in God's face is hyperbolism. You didn't even show any proof to support your opinion. Hyperbolism requires proof.
He's very good in defending our Holy Father.
Excllent discussions. God bless you both
Thank you, Suan, for sharing this timely conversation. In my view, regarding the topic of the Magisterium, you and Michael Lofton are two of the most helpful expositors on the internet today. On a personal note, when I was a seminarian in first-year theology, I found this topic very challenging. How I wish I had this kind of help back then! I encourage you to keep making these videos. Intellectual Catholicism is quickly racking up quite the treasure trove of incredible material. God bless you!
2 of my favourite Catholics!
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxyHe said it was a hypothetical. The point of the example was to show that the church could teach errors that don’t threaten salvation in its non-definitive magisterium. Michael wasn’t making a statement about whether or not Mose did in fact author the Pentateuch.
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy Your second time asking this question and the second time you were told it is hypothetical. Can you provide proof to back up your claim that we have to believe Moses wrote the Torah? You are taking something a bit too literally here.
I see this our era as a testin period of our faith, our trust in God's promises and our recognition in the Majesty and the Mastery of Our Father. Our Sweet Mother and many Saints must teach us the Real Humility and the Real God's filiation.
You are right. Stay faithful to the Church and her visible head, and God will carry us through.
Live from the Abrahamic faith center!
YES! I love you guys ❤
Your spiritually sick 🤢
The vast majority of faithful Catholics are not watching podcasts. Willingly, or otherwise, most content creators are sowing division and have a grossly inflated view of their own significance. I have a suggestion; zero content during Lent. In hoc signo vinces +.
Bingo.
See Erick Ybarras letter to his subscribers about this session. Erick of course, has the best of it.
Protestant
@@shawnmathew6078
lol did you just call Eric Ybarra a protestant?
Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about...
I am glad to see Suan bringing on different types of guests.
I personally cannot stand Lofton, but I also do not like the fact that much of the catholic space seems to be breaking off into different sects within the Church.
Its good to see channels bringing on different people within the Catholic-Sphere and talking, even if we don't agree with everything the particular person says.
Wonderful Episode brother.
As always you are both infused with much clarity on these issues we are going trough the current day.
To me it was the book from Father Giovanni Battista Scaramelli S.J. called Discernimento De' Spiriti (Discernment of Spirits) that gave me a lot of clarity in a lot of so called Controversies.
Deo gratias
I think another hypothetical example of an error that would not endanger our souls would be Vatican II’s teachings other religions. Even if it were to be an error (no error , Luke 12:48- purgatory for the ignorant), it would not endanger the soul.
Thank you for this thoughtful explanation of the Magisterium, and exploration of the extent we are assured that the Church will never lead us astray.
I liked especially the comment that sometimes, we do need to be sheep and let the shepherds take care of us and of the Church, knowing that the Good Shepherd is Present and His Holy Spirit is our Guide.
Dear@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy, as I understood it, Mr. Lofton was trying to find an example of a teaching that would be later found to be false, but would not damage our souls. He hit on the totally hypothetical example of IF the Church were to teach at one point that Moses did write the Pentateuch, and later determined that Moses definitely did not write that Pentateuch, believing the error of the first teaching would not have endangered anyone's soul.
I thought the REAL example of the teaching from Trent that the tonsure (priests plucking or shaving a bald spot on their heads as a symbol of their submission to the Gospel) had been handed down from the Apostles. We no longer believe that. Was anyone's soul endangered by the belief that the Apostles were tonsured? No.
What Mr. Lofton wanted to emphasize was that no teaching of the Church would ever harm anyone.
Dear@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy, asked and answered. It was a hypothetical. No assertions made. Please do not repeat this question.
Loved this conversation and hope to see more like this one! You both are excellent!
Ohhhh Can't imagine a better way to spend a Friday night 🙂
Excelent!
I feel that there needs to be a healthy balance of calling out the elephants in room while not letting it damage your soul or your communion with the Church. It can be hard to find that middle ground. But I, as are many others, am very sick of being told that the issues we plainly see are not issues at all and the controversies are consistently treated with such a blasé mindset. People should not be given into the temptation of these times to leave the church and give into a sort of non-supernatural belief that Christ and His Church won't win in the end, but we ought not feed into a protestant caricature of the papacies role as it pertains to the beliefs of the church. Ultimately, it comes down to how can a ship be righted when one group is saying we have sunk into the sea and the other is saying there are no holes to pay mind to and you're crazy if you think there are. We need to strive to be holy ourselves and strive for a church which does not embroil itself with scandal.
Also, as a side note, not sure having Lofton for a conversation on this issue is a good idea considering how much his channel has devolved as of late into stoking flames with almost any Catholic that has concerns for how the church has been heading under the current pontificate.
Actually, I disagree with you. Having 'lofton' on is a breath of fresh air. In so far as he actually reads the documents, current news out loud!
Very many appreciate that. The truth.
Dear @jacobh1144, Michael Lofton has been slurred against, He is always very careful to read the document or respond to the exact words of the blog post to which he is responding,
If you paid attention to what he said about his years of doubting. you would not be so quick to find fault with his efforts, especially in the last couple months when so many people have been so confused. And if you have been paying attention to the upset of so many over the Declaration "Fiducia Supplicans", you will have noticed that the confusion is coming from those who try to make the document say what it is not saying.
Yes, let us call out those who are trying to sink the Ship: the liberals in Germany and elsewhere who are trying to establish same-sex love as being analogous to marital love (which Pope Francis is against, since before he was pope, when the government of Argentina allowed same-sex unions, and Bergoglio was the point-man against that law. He was punished by having a false accusation raised against him that he had colluded with the anti-Communist government's deadly purge that -- the "Dirty War")
@@pop6997 If the truth and the breath of fresh air is found in hours long pieces on Scott Hahn, Ed Feser, Brian Holdsworth and other good men in the church, then I wish you the best. I was a long time fan of his but the content he produces today is a far cry from the early days with Ybarra and Albrecht. Hope the best for you but the content he creates today is not edifying in the slightest.
Michael Lofton doesn’t practice eisegisis. He points out the errors of others that are practicing eisegisis.
Fiducia supplicans criticism is a great example of eisegisis. The document doesn’t describe someone that wants sin blessed. The assumption is that these people are sinning though the Catechism teaches that they are to practice chastity. Reading the document makes it clear if one applies the Catechism on homosexuality and CCC 2478 that sin is not blessed and the goal is to bless them to help them with chastity. It’s not responsible for the church to say, be in chastity, yet not offer a blessing to help them with it. We cannot assume all couples are having sex, that is the sin of evil suspicion in 1 Tim 6:3-6. We must allow for the possibility that they may be living in chastity and living as siblings, which the church allows.
There is no way to criticize Fiducia supplicans without interjecting eisegisis and that can lead to four mortal sins
- evil suspicion
- bearing false witness
- being unmerciful
- schism
You can tell Satan wasn't happy with the explosion of apologetics on his favorite tool (that he probably had a hand in inventing), the internet. So now he drags formerly happy, faithful, fully sacramebtalized, praying and fasting Catholics into actual mortal sins, endangered millions of souls through the same errors; and all the while imagining they are holy while they slander the Pope himself with lines written by demons in Hell. Offering up reparation today and perpetually and pray for conversions. Pray for mass conversions. Pray for impossible conversions.
Have you seen Chris Stefanick's "Leaving an LGBTQ Identity for Christ" with Kim Zember? Very powerful example of why we need simple blessings to proliferate and welcome sinners back to the Church!
Our identity is not in what we do, especially the sin we do. Our identity is in the Love of the Father Who made us.
Dear@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy, I wish I had seen this response of yours first! The Church has never declared one way or another about the authorship of Moses!! Personally, I think Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but the fact is, NO ONE is going to Hell over thinking one way or the other!! Please listen more carefully to the video and do not get the authorship of Moses (hypothetical example, NOT dealt with at any council) with the question of tonsures (real example, WAS dealt with at the Council of Trent.)
My goodness! (And you have your Pope Piuses mixed up, as well as your Councils.)
I hope you have a chance to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which will tell you the REAL teachings of the Church, and the Bible passages that support these teachings. The Church was founded by Jesus to help us come closer to Him.
Dear@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy, Bless you, my brother. If you think that the idea of human authorship in the divinely authored book, is more important than loving God and our neighbor, then my words will not make any sense to you -- I do not wish to argue for the sake of argument.
Keep me in your prayers, as I will keep you in mine
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxyThird time you copied and pasted this nonsense
Dear@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy, you did not read my response correctly. I said that the Divine Author is not in dispute. Catholics know that all Scripture is the Word of God in the words of men.
@@susand3668he's not interested in learning and correcting. He's interesting in sowing division and promoting his heresies.
It sounds like Michael is conceding that the magisterium is fallible but still insisting it’s indefectible.
Why do so many schismatics and Pharisees of the radtrad and Orthodox hate Michael Lofton
Because they can recognize a demoniac when they see one.
Because most of them are just grifters and he is affecting their 💰 money. Let's be honest. These rad trads wouldn't making this content if there was no money on TH-cam to make from it. I was in traditional circles before the internet and they were very, very small.
Loft-dawg comin’ in hot to stop the radtrads with nuance and charity!
He stopped nothing, with tons of denial of reality and false narratives about what Traditional Catholics actually think and believe.
Charity?
@@From_Protestant_to_Christian yes, charity, the assumption that rad trads do not have evil intent in their dissent and disobeying Canon Law 751. Michael Lofton assumes ignorance, not evil intentions until the evidence shows otherwise like in the case of Dr. Taylor Marhall. There is an aspect that there is a monetary profit in criticizing Pope Francis. Eisegisis isn't logical.
@@paulmualdeave5063 Momkin said Lofton is one of the most uncharitable attackers online.
Somebody should do an investigation about pachamama “idol”. I am from Peru and I heard about pachamama ( mother earth in Quechua), but never heard about any idol or worshiping.
I recommend the show Michael did with Fr. Dcn Anthony Dragoni.
Curiously enough, I heard about Pachamama when visiting the Andes, Peru. Not in the Amazon. In the context of Amazon Synod, it was just wrong to imply the natives of the Amazon forest worshipped that idol of the mountains. PS: I’m from Brazil.
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxyEisegisis is not truth
This is the problem. There was no investigation into this as required in CCC 2478. We are to give the benefit of the doubt and research an issue before crying out foul. This was never done. Where are the interviews of these people on Pachamama? Where are the interviews of them to this day on Pachamama? Where is any proof these people are worshipping Pachamama now or prior to this ceremony? Had there been any, these are people from Brazil where Pachamama was never worshipped. So, we definitely should have given Brazilians the benefit of the doubt that they are not worshipping a goddess never worshipped in their country.
What we know:
- These people are Catholics
- Catholics do not worship idols (so, why are we assuming Catholics are worshipping idols?)
- Brazil has never worshipped the Incan Empire dieties like Pachamama
- Brazil is on the other side of the Andes Mountains where it was worshipped
- These people in those days centuries ago didn't have the wheel, making passage through the Andes Mountains nearly if not impossible
- Even in those days, Brazilians did not have idols as they didn't worship deities in the form of gods and goddesses
- Suspicion is a sin, 1 Tim 3-6
- Bearing false witness is a sin, 1 Tim 3:10
- We are to give the benefit of the doubt, which prevents the above sins (CCC 2476-2478)
- We cannot pick and choose which beliefs we follow
@@paulmualdeave5063 🎯
👍
Loften shadow bans dissenting opinions from his TH-cam channel. He has good things to say most the time, but he has hypocrisy problems in the area of charity.
Is Suan still at a Dominican priest
The capacity to teach is unharmed, and the teaching itself may be unharmful to souls. But what is harmful to souls is the full blown all encompassing media magisterium we’ve been living under since the advent of modern mass media. I’m saying the teaching (the actual text) can “technically” be clear and orthodox. But the bigger picture is we are left with leaders who operate for the church but who have been more formed by the “anti-church” of the media and its left-leaning agenda. Have none of us ever had a boomer priest who leaned a little more towards the mainstream establishment left? Ok big deal. Now we have a Pope and much of the papal bureaucracy that is cut from the same cloth. They are compromised by their captivity to the media, and the media hijacks them as a messenger to push a certain agenda.
I’m not criticizing the magisterium. I’m pointing to a very real parallel “media magisterium”.
did you read any of the pope's speeches?
@@tafazziReadChannelDescription Yes and I have a few audible versions as well. I initially had a good impression of him, and felt he was profound and misunderstood. Even still I can take his words and fit them into a certain paradigm that makes it all sound very poignant ad timely, but the unfortunate thing is it’s become more difficult to suspend disbelief or convince myself that he truly does share a paradigm of continuity (in step with BXVI).
Listen, the “is Francis secretly BASED??” esoteric take was funny, fresh, and even somewhat believable 5+ years ago. But it’s now undeniable that he is not on the same page as his predecessors. What he represents and how the media (Vatican and secular) represents him to us is obviously in lockstep with the progressive agenda pushed by the mainstream establishment. I guess he could be secretly based or whatever but if so, he’s allowed for the hijacking of his image. I don’t know the man, like I said much of what he says is enlightening if seen through a certain lens. But it just seems obvious to me that he serves as a figurehead/mascot of the “changing church” that the James Martin, Massimo Faggioli types advocate for. Benedict XVI was a man of the council (the missionary hope of V2 and the evangelizing church). Francis is a man of the “council of the media” (the “pastoral” spirit of V2 and the evolving church).
What's with all the commercials? Interesting, but not worth the time.
I'm not 'embarrassed' by Pope Francis. I'm Catholic. If I feel embarrassed by Catholic teaching in today's society then that would be my fault - every single day.
OK Einstein, why did somebody in the Vatican think it was a good idea for P Francis to send two handwritten letters to Fr, James, Martin, and Lunatic Nun From new ways ministries thanking them for the great work there doing and not to mention that somebody in a Vatican decided to give the Chinese government to undermine the authentic Catholic Church that the Chinese government can pick bishops please explain Einstein I am an Albanian Catholic. Even though the Albanians 50 years ago were only 15% of the population close to 180 Catholic priest and bishops were executed by the Albanian communist government what the hell do you think the Chinese government is going to do to the authentic underground Catholic Church Einstein
OK Einstein, why did somebody in the Vatican think it was a good idea for pope Francis to send two handwritten letters thanking father James Martin, for the work he does, and not to mention the lunatic nun from new ways ministry and not to mention, why did somebody in the Vatican thought it was a good idea for the Chinese government to pick bishops to undermine the underground Catholic Church please answer Einstein I am an Albanian Catholic 50 years ago 15% of Albanians were Catholic. The communist government killed close to 180 Catholic priest and bishops. What the hell do you think the Chinese government is going to do to the authentic Chinese Catholic church Einstein please answer
Hey popcorn I think you are like Joe Biden. I'm waiting for your response.😂
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy your spiritually, sick I'm a cradle Catholic who
loves, and believes in the Catholic Church
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy says a Russian orthodox lunatic
Dr Peter Kwasniewski
“The Road From Hyperpapalism to Catholicism” is a must read to understand Lofton and other neo-modernists who redefine the role of the papacy beyond the limits of Vatican 1.
The Pope is not the master of tradition but the servant of it.
I am not convinced by your diagnosis of Mr. Lofton. I do not think the intricacies of his journey have led him to "hyperpapalism", as you state. The pope is, indeed, the servant of Tradition. Therefore, when the Magisterium comes out with a serious document , signed by the pope, *every effort* should be made to understand it as being in continuity with Tradition.
To do anything else is not Catholic but Protestant.
@@susand3668 So, which document by Francis is in continuity with tradition, the 2021 one explicating saying “the Church cannot bless same-sex couples” or the 2023 one saying the exact opposite? Sure, effort should be made, but when a papal document clearly and unequivocally contradicts previous infallible Magisterium (or even the Word of God, like when he said the deατh penalty - explicitly sanctioned in the Old and New Testaments - is “contrary to the Gospel”), we dishonour God and the intelligence He gave us by pretending otherwise, the way Lofton does.
Neo-modernist? He uses our church councils and history to support his positions.
You are slandering him by calling him this. He shows how in the councils we are to submit to the pope. Hyper-Papalist? No, Catholic. Martin Luther criticized the pope and also failed to submit to him. That is modernism. Not showing how the Eight Ecumenical Council’s Canon 21 makes it anathema to say the pope teaches heresy.
@@O_Reiif you're talking about the Responsum, it doesn’t even use the word "couples", so I welcome correction in the form of an exact quote.
Sounds familiar....like Calvin & Luther.
Oh no
It's seems Suan's desperate for guests.
Canon Law 751, schism is defined as not submitting to the pope. Twisting everything he says into evil using eisegisis isn't submitting.
@@paulmualdeave5063 We don't twist what he says because what he says is unreliable and irrelevant. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. What we do is point out what he DOES.
I hope at some point to see a real theologian and an actual intellectual like card Muller to discuss some of these topics
Protestant
I'm sorry, did you read the same article by Cardinal Mueller in The Pillar that I read? It was a pitiful example of twisting what "Fiducia Supplicans" said to fit some agenda of the Cardinal's own.
He invented a third type of blessing, for Heaven's sake!
And then the rest of the article, he proceeded to point out all the errors in the "blessing" HE MADE UP!
I wish someone smarter than I am would take it apart for people to see that article for what it was -- and wasn't.
How do you handle controversies in the Church? Stop the fallacies. Stop doing appeal to magisterium, appeal to moderation/harmonization, stop using strawmen/converse accident fallacies/hasty generalizations, and personal attacks of Ad Hom/appeal to motivation/appeal to association fallacies. Recognize that suspicion heightens when intent, acts, and consequences have statistically proven to be devastating to the Church in value adherence, attendance, baptisms, financial crimes, criminal corruption, and moral hostility from state governments. For example, when you promote above peers a man who has written pornographic blasphemy about our Lord Jesus Christ, writes questionable documents regarding sexuality, and has extremely negative consequences to value adherence among the faithful and global scandals, it leads to suspicion. When a book like "The Dictator Pope" comes out and then acts and consequences nearly identical to that book materialize and continue to materalize, it raises suspicions. When evil heretical corrupt men are promoted to positions of favor, power, and position while traditionalists whistle blowers are punished severely without typical due process, it raises suspicions.
You want to handle controversies? Stop with the fallacies. No one outside your echo chamber takes them seriously.
Pope Francis called the statues Pachamamas after they were taken.
👎
You can always tell a demoniac by how much he tries to make sure you see the tattoos peeking out from under his clothing.
Lol. What a corny take.
Disappointed. But we follow Jesus not TH-camrs. Love Suan but disappointed.
Are you disappointed because the views of the guest don't align with yours? Are you disappointed because the guest is not fanning the flames of dissent?
@@freda7961 no friend - I am saddened and disappointed that comments like yours are the norm - passive aggressive tones assuming the worst construction…are we Christian? If we are friend then we know even if Lofton was 1,000 percent correct in his analysis which is not possible that at the very least his delivery / tone / temperament / gaslighting / harshness / should concern Rome…let’s just say he’s sound more like Luther than Saint Francis at this point.
I appreciate your viewpoint, but I feel your initial expression of disappointment also came across as somewhat passive-aggressive, suggesting that people are following TH-camrs instead of Jesus. Regarding Lofton’s tone and delivery, my perception differs from yours. To me, it seems more like an appropriate form of fraternal correction rather than harshness. Have you considered the tone of dissenters on the other side? From my observation, many are extremely harsh and uncharitable in their comments against the Pope and their interpretations of magisterial documents. They often assume the worst interpretations and spread fear based on these. They definitely sound more like Luther. In comparison, Lofton’s approach seems more measured and focused on correction rather than fear-mongering.
@@freda7961 The Lord be with you and forgive me if I have offended you. God bless you.
@@Highproclass Thank you for your kind words. No offense taken. May the Lord be with you too, and God bless!
This act of defending all that comes out of Rome without resisting at all, is negligence not obedience to the Truth.
At the moment of blessing, if the individuals are a couple, knowingly they are in sin and defiance, that is not seeking the Lord's favour, a Blessing. Is it rational for you that a couple would get a priest's blessing to stop being a couple? No. They're getting a blessing IN THEIR STATE as a couple and to "seek God" yet they stand in defiance of God by their mere state of relationship. It's a simple contradiction. God's Law isn't a contradiction, it's not confusing, it's not up to interpretation, etc... what the document does is "provide a development on the meaning of blessing to broaden people's understanding of it".... does that sound like the narrow gate? Did Jesus say, "the gate to Heaven is narrow BUT I will broaden it to help more people in who don't want to go through the narrow path"? No. He did not. He said "carry your cross, deny THE TO THYSELF and follow Me"... This document has none of that and I respect the African Bishops for rejecting it...,
Actually, the African bishops consulted the pope and Cardinal Fernandez before drafting their response to "Fiducia Supplicans." They are not in defiance.
Just as the German Synodal Way is not in compliance when they say, "We are going to go forward with our promotion of same-sex unions." They are going to be schooled this coming year, with 3 visits to Rome and seeing various dicasteries to learn the errors of their ways.
And we need to bless our brothers and sisters in sin. Bless the people, not the sin.
And watch the Lord MOVE in His people!!
FS does not describe anyone seeking to sin. This is the illogical error called eisegesis. The act of resisting because you are practicing eisegesis is negligent. You cannot find one example of these people wanting to sin in FS. Not one. You can find in it these people wanting to follow the Commandments and Gospel. Not only negligence, you open yourself up to hypocrisy by sinning through calling out sin. I’ll explain this hypocrisy:
The assumption is that these people are sinning. That goes against the Catechism on homosexuality in its teachings that we are to treat these people with care. We are not to use tough love against them based on the Catechism on homosexuality, we are NOT Evangelical Protestants. The sin also per the Catechism is the sex act. The eisegisis in this forgets this, treating their persons as the sin rather than the sex acts. “They are couples, so it’s common sense that they are sinning”. No, this is the sin of evil suspicion, 1 Tim 6:3-6 and goes against CCC 2478, which says we should give others the benefit of the doubt. The first sin hypocrites practice in ignorance.
And this all leads to why one can be guilty of bearing false witness against these couples. The second sin the hypocrite practices in ignorance. The Catechism’s third and final teaching on homosexuality is that they are to practice chastity. Do you deny that confession of these acts and living in chastity means they are NOT sinning? Confession forgives sin, right? FS describes them as seeking to follow the Gospel, that means confession. This leads to the third sin the hypocrite practices in ignorance. Being unmerciful. James 2:13 condemns the unmerciful to hell. How is it responsible for the church to teach these people practice chastity and not offer a blessing to help them with chastity???
That then is leading to the fourth mortal sin the critic practices, not submitting to the papacy, which is the definition of schism in Canon Law 751. Leaving the church is a mortal sin.
Congratulations to the critics for they commit four mortal sins to cry out against one mortal sin that a couple may not even be practicing.
The error that lead the Puritans to the Salem Witch Trials.
@susand3668 the Bishops of Africa rejected FS on cultural terms claiming that it would be against the culture of the African Catholic culture. That's rejection
Dear@@hugomunoz9039, please come down from your flight of fancy. The Magisterium is not your enemy. The pope has been opposed to same-sex marriages since long before he was pope. He hates politics, but he was the pointman for the Church against the government's making the law allowing same-sex unions legal.
You are limiting the definition of "blessing" to mean only the favor of approval. It also means the favor of bestowing grace -- actual grace -- as FS says. Which everyone needs so that we can repent abd change and follow Jesus, Who is the Way.
You also choose to limit the definition of "couple" to the "Union of a couple", which it can never mean in the context of its use in FS. Simple blessings can only bless people, not unions or institutions. But they can bless people in any number -- ones, twos, tens, thousands -- and in this document, twos are what are focused on because the German Synodal Way has focused on couples, and the pope is in pitched battle with the liberal Catholics in Germany and elsewhere who are trying to "normalize" homosexual love.
By opposing FS, and the pope, you are giving comfort to our enemies -- by falsely accusing the pope and FS of approving same-sex unions, you are making people think that that is what they are doing. You are preaching that -- FS and the pope and the Church he is the visible head of, actually approve of same-sex unions.
Have you considered at all what you are doing to the Bride of Christ?
@paulmualdeave5063 I only care to reply to that, which refers directly to your analysis of my post: FS need not spell out that those seeking a blessing as a SS couple "are wanting to sin"... there's no need.. FS gives them permission to seek the blessing from the priest as a couple and even if the Pope claims the blessing goes to the person, it is scandalous, unnecessary, and defiant of Natural Law from God for a SS couple to seek a blessing, which is the Lord's favour, in their state of sin, albeit knowingly... and even worse, the Priest knowing also
I have a hard time accepting that Lofton really believes what he is saying. I think he is sincere but his methodology is novel.
Clueless take.
unsubbed because having lofton is not "intellectual".
I make your words my own. Lofton is an embarrassment to the name Catholic: he makes the Pope into the idolatrous caricature Protestants make of what Catholicism really teaches about the Papacy.
You must be too brainy to be Catholic 😅
@@O_ReiDitto.
Clearly, you're soo intelligent! 😅
Protestants detected!
NOOOO Suan you’re better than this. Lofton is unbearable lol.
At 17 minutes Suan said it all. 17-19. Embarrassed of his Father, Pope Francis. This is where the conversation goes off the deep end...this is not a good method of thought...to apply harmonization of Scripture in analogy to "harmonizing" a Papacy clearly in disharmony with the previous popes, including the MOST RECENT. I thought Suan was fair. The Church is to provide clarity, not confusion, the Pope is to be of service to Tradition not to confusion and worldly 1st world worries. Lofton says we should suffer in silence...laughable. We have an obligation to speak out when Truth is attacked...especially every day as our Pope shamelessly and disrespectfully tramples upon the prerogatives of the Holy duty as Vicar of Christ. This narrative doesnt edify...as usual, Lofton calls faithful common sense Catholics Protestants...😂😂 The Pope is naked, and lost all credibility and due "charitable " interpretations...a denial of reality feels good, but it's still ignorant.
th-cam.com/video/PiXrmb81Hus/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ihzYFtOdX7KQSYUO
Excuse me, but you have come to this conclusion from listening to years of accusations to which you have not heard the other side of the story. You believe that you know, just as Michael Lofton believed that he knew when he condemned Pope Francis on the basis of what was coming from the media.
How can you find the real Truth? You have been lied to. You have been played, for clicks and fame and money... whatever comes with pope-bashing.
Jesus has promised His Church will never teach falsehood. Remember that headline about the lightning striking a statue in Argentina? God has good aim, and would not miss. If He wanted to remove Pope Francis, or was trying to tell us in some way that the Declaration coming out the next day was not Truth, He would not have been so obscure. But the Devil would be.
Please, pray about your attitude towards the pope. He has allowed Pope Francis to continue, and I pray that He will let the pope finish the great work that he is doing in opposing the liberal German Synodal Way (please read the document on their Website "Blessing ceremonies for couples who love each other" -- synodalerweg.de. It should explain a LOT!)
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy4th copy and paste
You should start listening to what people that defend the pope are saying. Watch again about what Michael Lofton says about suspicion at 11:50.
Pope Francis critics are utilizing Protestant arguments. Catholicism is based on submitting to the pope. You say you are to publicly criticize, like when Martin Luther posted his criticisms on a church door??? You are defending this. Suffering in silence is in church teachings, read Donum Veritatis. We have priests, bishops and Cardinals violating Donum Veritatis when they are supposed to let the church handle any problems the church has and not influence the masses against our own church.
A couple errors you are practicing here. The papacy will remain undefiled until the end. It is anathema to say the pope teaches heresy. You may not have heard of these church teachings because you are getting your information on Pope Francis from people that are not showing you what the church teaches on these things. Michael Lofton has a lot of videos on these two topics.
One reason I left the rad trad movement is I noticed they replaced teaching about Catholicism with criticizing everything Pope Francis says.
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy It's spam, not teaching. You offer not facts to back up your opinion, so it isn't teaching.
Barf.
Lofton is horrible and super uncharitable to people who disagree with him
I too like to repeat polemnics
I disagree with you.
Isn’t this kind of an ad hominem? I mean, he could be the nastiest person on the planet and still be correct in his argumentation.
He's also an intellectual lightweight.
Wow. I really like Suan. But a Michael Lofton colab? Cringe bro.
Bro not even a trad but sorry Suan, I tried but I literally can’t stand this dudes tone. Such a poser.