Green struggles with removal, and 90% of green’s strat is casting fatties, if you take away their ramp they’re left with nothing. Blue on the other hand can do just about everything, even the “downsides” are laughable.
Green is REALLY good at doing its own thing but its not amazing at stoping other players from doing thing there, other than artifact and enchantment removal.
@@LoveStrangeDr Blue is bad at dealing with board presence, particularly non-creature board presence. The fact it's good at drawing into removal in other colors but is also good at tempo plays like creature/spell bounce and tapdown is why it's so good. Its poor card quality on average at low CMC is made up by its sheer card advantage and ability to buy enough time to get to an actual answer, or combo off. There's this fine line where other colors would normally get under it in 1v1 formats that just doesn't function in multi-player that well, and Red & White often struggle at going over it without dipping into multi-color, where all bets are off anyways. White's problem is it needs card selection, not card advantage. I want white to have Tutors, not card draw. The color that's all about law and order should be good at implementing its rules in an orderly fashion, which tutors simulate perfectly. Hell I think White has a stronger case than black does for that effect in particular.
Whites best cards are either banned officially in the rules or unofficially by the playgroup. I'd be fine if white got some other ability to replace stax / tax going forward just for EDH style games. If the community's feedback is - in this format - these cards are not fun to play against - it would make sense to push the color in another direction. Not saying it should lose its feeling in standard / legacy - just that it should gain a new set of abilities that are fun to play in the Commander format.
@@Loxorius They can either leverage current things white does well and keep going that route, or they need to provide something new. I'm doubtful of WotC providing white something new that other colors don't get outside maybe a keyword ability (think Shadow, but for white). So, they are more likely to expand on what they already have - which is what they are doing currently. For example, the new Heliod for lifegain interaction, or providing alternatives like Monologue Tax to staples like Smothering Tithe. I think of "Order" and "Anthem/Tokens" when I think of "safe" white, so maybe something tied to number of cards equaling others (they just printed Archaeomancer's Map), or make White the defacto Politics color. Make it unique enough to seperate what Azorious decks already do. I think a devotion type mechanic may serve white well if it isn't superceded by the other colors. Hell, give white some kind of Exodia type effect where if enough of the "common people" get together (like a modified Party mechanic), they become Voltron or can recruit (tutor) specific cards from deck. Cycling, Cantrips, and Persist/Undying type effects all seem easy enough to add and fit with the color. There are already similar cards and mechanics, just need WotC to lean into that more so that our deck slots are filled with more quality options. That's where other colors get ahead - they have options.
@@Loxorius Lots of these ideas came from EDH content creators, or from their initial ideas. No problem! Keeping fingers crossed where all parties are happy in the future.
Nearly dropped the idea of building a Kytheon Deck but you saved it. I'm shocked how much I let myself manipulate from general stuff like "lol mono w? Good luck without draw & ramp" ... Thank you very much! And keep uploading that awesome stuuuuuff
Actually, you do hear 60-card Constructed players, esp. Standard watchers, complaining about white getting shafted. A lot of the staple white cards are old, and other colors have intruded into white’s color pie in noticeable ways (in particular Hullbreacher and Opposition Agent). Of course, these people aren’t mad about white being bad. They’re mad about white getting shafted.
Good video, but I have to disagree on one point. 3:37 - "Smothering Tithe is a tax card... people think of it as a ramping card, which it's not. It's actually a tax card." While technically it is a tax effect, it almost never plays as one. This unfortunately came about because they made the tax too high; if it had been "Are you going to pay the 1?" like Rhystic Study, people would actually consider paying into it, and I would agree. But at 2 mana per draw, players rarely pay the mana, and it simply plays like a ramp card. We might be in the area of arguing a distinction without a difference, but 99% of the time I've seen Smothering Tithe, it was a straight ramp card. Additionally, as an *optional* tax, it doesn't really play like a tax spell. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV makes it so you can't play stuff without paying the tax. Smothering Tithe doesn't interfere with your ability to do things.
I agree, but my concern is that wizards employees have gone on record saying they will print less or stop printing the 'unfun' strategies and that swords to plowshares were mistakes. My concern is more with white's future than the current position it is in.
Imo land destruction is more a red thing, otherwise pretty much on point. I might add "protecting your stuff" is often a white strength also. A take on "printing busted white cards": I think mana cost would be a good screw to regulate them not being in too much multi colored decks. (Like your example of Hour of Revelation. 'www' can be a big thing to ask an Abzan deck)
You nailed it (again), and you're my #1 source for CMDR perspectives. Just finished building a Bant deck that's 75% white and has 10 board wipes and several spot removals in it. It beat my best deck on the first trip out.
I built a mono white Mangara the Diplomat super friends with heavy board wipes on cockatrice and the one game the guy said. "Is it just me or is that Mangara player taking over the game?"
I think a major factor is that many of the OG white signature things turned out not very good. Just think of the boon cycle. How many people can even name the white one? Everyone knows dark ritual or giant growth.
Yeah white is great at giving you a high life total. But what does that usally get you in a multiplayer format? A big target on your back. My biggest issue with the recent Green/Black" Lifegain" cards is not that they give those colors better lifegain than white. It's that they (specially Black) got way better payoffs for lifegain than what white usually gets. They got ways to ramp, make creatures huge, get card advantage and deal direct damage to the dome. 90% of the time white lifegain payoffs give you +1/+1 counters and that's it.
does a high life total make you more of a target than having a rhystic study in play? or having more lands than everybody else? or having golos in the command zone? i sure hope not, or your playgroup needs more practice.
@@killersamson7881 The cards that "autowin" the game work on upkeep, which means they have to survive a round of the table. Drain works when you cast. Think Mark, think.
A big problem with the reasoning here is you are saying that other colors having a couple cards that do things as well as white doesn’t make white no longer the best at X. But decks don’t need 30 examples, they need 5 or 10 to fill the slot of the deck. If the other colors have 5 or 10 cards that are just as good as what white does it doesn’t matter that white has 100. For example, look at card draw. Comparatively blue has 656 cards that draw cards and green has 210. But functionally do you really think green has a harder time drawing cards than blue? Hell no because the top 10 draw cards in both colors are equally as powerful and the remaining 200-600 cards don’t matter.
@@edhdeckbuilding Are those nearly as useful as the blue ones though? Of those you have 2 with targeting limitations, one that is a very minor tax and nearly useless in formats that don’t end in 3-4 turns, and one that only delays the spell. Now if they printed 5 counter spells in white (without also needing blue) of equal utility as Counterspell, Swan Song, Arcane Denial, Mana Drain, and Fierce Guardianship then yeah white would have just as good of a presence as blue for counter spells as blue does even though blue would still have 100 times as many to pick from.
agreed. blue is much better at counterspells. that's the point i was trying to make. nevertheless you can fill 4-5 slots in your mono-white deck with counterspells.
@@edhdeckbuilding right, but you’re sidestepping their argument. Lapse in Certainty/other White Counterspells can’t be compared to even some weaker counterspells that Blue has. Meanwhile other “exceptions to the rule” that other colors have been taking from White (taking Blue as an example, the color’s recent exile based removal, or stax effects like Hullbreacher), have been comparable or even better than what White has. Sure it’s only “a few cards”, but those colors are getting close to having (or already have) enough cards to fill decks with things that do White effects, while not needing White to do it.
i agree that other colors should stop stealing from white. but white still is the best at these things. sure hullbreacher or opposition agent shoulda been white. but white still has lots of other great effects like that.
I've had an Eight-and-a-Half-Tails deck built since it was T2 legal. Being mono white has its drawbacks, but if you lean heavily into white's strengths, and build your deck properly, you can stand with multicolored decks. Thanks for the vid, sir.
Second the “lean on your strengths.” I have built Boros decks that have destroyed Muldrotha and Locus God decks in the past. Mono white is a bit more tricky due to red being an amazing color at ending games, but it’s still really easy to dismantle those decks.
Please inform me of your deck list! I just made an EAAHT deck and I was wondering what direction you took it so I can make some adjustments. Would be greatly appreciated friend!
I agree with a fair amount of this, but ramp and card draw are still pretty important, and I don’t want white to be the best at it, and I don’t want any more smothering tithes. I want uncommons that make mono white decks that are fun for everyone easier and cheaper to build.
The problem is the people don’t want to play what white does well. You see all the time, games being created with qualifiers like “no stax” “no hate bears” “no boardwipes” and “No MLD”. Therefore, you are kinda left playing “fair white”. The only other qualifiers that colors get is blue, with no counters. No one is going to tables saying, “oh, I don’t want to play against turn 2 ramp spells” or “no aristocrats” . White also does anthems the best.
I have never agreed with @edhdeckbuilding as much as I do in this video. White is a fantastic color. I was so upset when the professor made the incorrect assumption that white isn't the best color in removal.
always felt like white balances other colors alot of people add white for its removal, what would be dope is lean into that i want a commander that utilizes removal better
I feel like the only real disadvantage white has is that it feels like every other color is allowed to bleed into one another from time to time, but white the one that feels the most like it keeps it's corner of the pie separate from the others
People hate white’s strongest strategies. Most of the white hate is directed to mono-white, most people I speak with agree that it is a great support colour, but that it was missing important pieces for a multiplayer game as a mono--colour. Cards over the last few years have addressed this, but the problem still is that they are highly splashable and so people haven’t then considered white to be much stronger as a mono, just a better support colour. I guess most people think that there’s no reason/reward to play mono-white
I think a real issue with white isn't that it "doesn't do anything" but rather that it does "too much" "too good". As someone that has always wanted to play it but has never gotten it right, it seems really easy to screw up (or piss off the table). It comes off as the color for deciding what game everyone is going to be playing, but if you don't know what *you're* doing, the only one getting taxed is going to be you, making it look like it can't do anything when it's really you (probably damaging its reputation further). On the flip side, I'll never forget the day Ajani's avatar punched me in the face for 101 damage out of nowhere and 100 tokens as backup "just in case" my one 4/4 Jund creature got scrappy or something. (That said, "get good" is rarely ever going to be an argument that actually wins you points with a detractor, instead making a valid point seem less valid otherwise, but you sounded more frustrated than serious. I mean, I already know I'm not good at the game; I can't play white.) I do disagree about tokens though: short of Krenko and...other Krenko for red or Avenger of Zendikar for green, what cards can reliably keep up with white in token volume, let alone density, right out of the gate? It's like a body tax, and who does taxes better than white?
Gota disagree on that. The game is meant to be fun for everyone not just the 9ne in the lead if you destroy everyone's land it turns the game into either a game of solitaire or pass go. Leave land distruction in competitive play
@@amangonemad5117 I can agree that land destruction for the sake of stalling the game is a bad play. However it can (and should) be used to close out the game when you get ahead. If I couldn't close the game within 2 turns, I wouldn't play it.
@@markgaudy while that might be your plan 2 turns of no lands pass still isn't fun. And if anyone stops your combo or finds some other way stopping you then your back to no land pass and still turns the game into solitaire because your the only one who can do anything
@@morgoth2425 In the end mtg is usually meant for recreation so people won't be happy when they don't actually get to cast spells and have fun. There are always playgroups who will play with your land destruction but a lot won't cause it beats the point of the game for them
I mean, I complain about white because I want it to be better, not *just* because white sucks. In fact, I agree with some of what you said in your video. board wipes are good card advantage cards and white has some really banger removals, stax and durdling. people also often neglect what white does best and complain, but the complaints are still valid. yes these are strong advantages but "what if green or blue steals them?!?!??!??? what if they already have?!?!!?" is the complaint I usually get when talking about how bad white is. and then you look at how they balance white, just now they printed halo fountain and book of exalted deeds. I don't know about you, but if you have to balance a color by slapping "you win the game" or " you don't lose the game" on it, I think more work needs to be done to fix what ever problem lead to this situation. it's still a nice color, it's just that the potential behind it could've been so much better than it is now. I love board wiping and staxing and removal, but after that, now what? I swing with my aggressively costed five mana 2/2's? their's so much losing prevention, wizards forgot how to make white win (except bant because of course, it has the 2 best colors in commander.) at best, you splash white because you want to prevent losing, at worst you splash because it fits the flavor and because "why not?" white is like having to choose between a torture device or a knife in a gun fight. one will be real slow and tough to actually pull off a kill yet bulky enough to still protect you, and the other is more aggressive, but not on par with others. because the advantages given are great, but what if a deck is too fast to stax or doesn't care about board wipes? then the given upside become downsides, and all of what makes white good gets countered by a measly super friends deck. if only white can win games by itself instead of making your opponent give you the win by scooping because "stax are annoying and not fun"... oh yeah, halo fountains and book of exalted deeds, because that's not gonna become annoying to see in every white deck. heck, why doesn't everyone that have white get azor's elecutors, barren glory and rise of the second sun? just give white all the alternate win cons, because making an actually creative and fun mechanic for white is totally not what people want, they want to win games!!! that's why people want ramp and card draw in white. sure it doesn't actually solve white's problem but at least it's on par with resource management as other colors. what it really needs is diversity, and only wizards of the coast can give us that if their clever enough, or if they care enough.
i don't have a problem with white ramp, removal, board wipes, or stacks/tax effects. my main issue is win cons and card draw to an extent that doesn't require a colorless card. Things like Approach of the second sun is nice but without card draw it will be awhile. Most of mono-white is get a large army and swing with something like Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Life gain without walking ballista w/ Heliod, Sun-Crowned or Aetherflux Reservoir feels kinda bad(you just make tokens and a couple large creatures), Also most of the good white cards cost a lot and need reprints badly. When white is mixed with another color the issues that white has is gone but by itself it usually falls behind as white mostly polices the table and then runs out of things to do in my opinion. nice vid
I am a white mage (ok maybe boros). My first deck was Avacyn Angel of Hope, more than half my decks use white. However you are half wrong half right here. In regards to your argument about these complaints only being in commander. White does nothing well is as unsure as the statement that white doesn't need to change. The whole point of this format is to be magic x10. So yeah of course any color in commander needs draw and ramp. Draw is more important but ramp is still relevant. Black happens to be able to draw quite well, and it ramps with Cabal Coffers and Yawgmoth Tombs etc. Is board whiping card advantage? Kinda but its also not fun. That's the thing, getting more resources let's the opponent play their deck and doesn't feel bad to play against. That might be "unfortunate" but true. I'd love to see white learn to embrace a group hug style where it helps everyone but it helps itself more. That would be very white and pretty fun. You are correct that in commander many of the strats white is known for are avoided largely because they aren't fun to play against. Is white the best at removal? Maybe, black is really good at creature removal, deathtouch creatures and edict effects and now they are getting more exile effects. Green is the best at enchantment removal.. White is good at removal and you might be able to argue that it is the most versatile removal, maybe in that sense it is best but that isn't anything like how blue or green is the best at draw or ramp. Now if you say white is the best at board whipes then you have a decent argument. One problem, board whipes are becoming less important and people don't like it when you whipe every couple turns. So its in with land destruction, and tax strategies. I just want white to have fun unique strats that everyone won't complain about. White exiles better, I agree with that
just because you think boardwipes are "less important" or people "don't like them" doesn't mean that they aren't extremely effective. i'll stack up my white removal against your black removal any day of the week.
I really enjoy playing Boros, and I've actually had a lot of success with my Firesong and Suspeaker deck. It's just a bit of a higher price tag than my other decks is all
Love this video! I've always really liked mono white, but have always been hesitant on building one due to the power level. I think I'll give it a try with some of these strategies now.
You mentioned non-white pillowfort, and I just wanna shoutout a Kardur Doomscourge pillowfort deck I played. The commander goads all your opponents' creatures on etb, so the whole game they were doing stuff to get the ETB again, either bouncing him back to their hand, or later on they got a Conjurer's Closet out and that was pretty much it for the rest of us. All that to say that Pillowfort is doable outside of white
Propaganda exists too but it's one card vs 15+ in white. That Kardur deck sounds fun! I was trying to build a jeskai goad deck but I think Kardur is the way I should go.
Monowhite and Boros are my favorite colors since they provide the best deckbuilding challenges. White does have a lot of strength in taxes, stax, hate bear and pillow fort, that being said, the problem is, NONE of these strategies help further your game plan. Bringing the game to a halt is not the same as moving towards victory and that's where I believe monowhite weaknesses lie. Sure you can boardwipe as much as you want, but eventually you're gonna run out of removal while your opponents may simply refill their hands with some well timed card draw spells and either redeploy their boards or combo off in the following turns. The one thing that monowhite needs very badly are WINCONS. Every color have their forms of wincon, be it in the form of Craterhoof Behemoth, Expropriate, Torment of Hailfire or Fire Emancipation. The closest thing monoW has is Elesh Norn and the newer Akroma's will.
how is stax a strategy at all than? that archetype has been around for 20 years. if it didn't win games than why would anyone play it? Erhnaggedon decks were winning the world championships before most magic players were born. trying playing against an oloro pillowfort deck with a felidar sovereign in play and ask them how they're going to win. i'm sure they've got it figured out.
@@edhdeckbuilding That might be true in a 1v1 scenario. But in a multiplayer setting this is far from what we see. Just have a look at most cEDH metas and you'll see that the only viable decks are either Teshar or Heliod, the first being a value engine and the second a combo enabler. Sure, both strategies rely on stax/tax to some extent but that's not what's winning their games. I'd completely agree with the idea of white being an excellent SUPPORT color. But it is not deep enough to make it a good color on its own. MonoW needs way more support in the future if it wants to compete on par with the other colors. We have been moving in the right direction with new cards that capitalize on the use of equipments, auras, graveyard and token generation for value/card advantage. Other cards that focus on parity such as archeomancer's map or keeper of the accord that are within the philosophy of the color pie are always welcome additions as well.
my question about stax was rhetorical. it was meant to make you think about your statement: "NONE of these strategies help further your game plan. Bringing the game to a halt is not the same as moving towards victory ". those strategies exist because they DO work and move you towards victory. stax IS the game plan. pillowfort IS the game plan. these strategies of worked in magic for a long time because people win games with them often. also winota hatebears is a very viable deck in cedh. and my zedruu stax deck fairs pretty well too.
This is the perfect video on White. I have been playing white since 2004. It is the most powerful color if played right. Lyra Dawnbringer is my favorite edh deck and I pack it with boardwipes and spot removal. It wins way more than it loses. Like you said focus on what white does well.
Board wipes aren’t always reliable card advantage, so that take is sketchy at best. If one player has 10 creatures another one two and the last one 0, cuz he plays an enchantment or spellslinger you boardwipe wont do shit because yes he lost 10 creatures, but it cost you a card and the others have the advantage now. also good luck drawing into it with almost no card draw. And while you can probably put 30 wipes into your deck, they’re situational cards that won’t win you the game, they just prevent you from losing it to creatures mostly.
Especially in the example he gave in the video. "I cast a board wipe and take out all those creatures!" Oh, the ones put in by genesis wave? So, 1 for 1, and now they have a full graveyard and still way more mana. Hell he could have easily given an example of using mana dorks for ramp in that case, but didn't.
so my austere command or my cleansing nova allows me to advantage myself however i like. you're thinking too one-dimensionally. furthermore my hour of revelation or my planar cleansing will just hit it all. and why do i need to "draw into it"? i'll always have one at the ready because white has so many. you're answering your own questions here. also the "you're just preventing yourself form losing the game, not winning the game" is the worst magic argument i've ever heard. i'm not sure who's perpetuating that garbage. what does a counterspell do? does it win you the game? nope. it just prevents your opponents from doing so. removal, same thing. pretty hard for you to win the game if your opponent wins first right? every cedh deck is a combination of "i'm trying to win the game" and "i'm trying to stop my opponents from winning". if you can't stop your opponents from combing off in cedh, then your deck is useless. not dying should be you're number one priority in any commander game, unless you're comboing off or playing extreme aggro.
@@edhdeckbuilding if you have enough so that you’ll always have one, you’re gonna have a lot of cases where your whole hand consists of boardwipes, which are situational cards by design and you’ll find yourself unable to advance your gameplan. And your counterspell argument is basically my argument, yes counterspells stop enemies from winning, but unlike boardwipes they can stop your enemies from stopping you from winning. Also i wouldnt compare regular edh to cedh, which is a very weird and different format but in cedh boardwipes are basically non existent, because they don’t win you the game.
@@angell.4626 what type of commander are you playing? you use your counterspells to stop your opponents to stop you from winning? that sounds like cedh. most games i play people use their counterspells for craterhoof or expropriate or cyclonic rift, or a removal spell for their commander. it seriously sounds like you're just trying to make an argument that boardwipes just aren't very good. what situation is an hour of revelation not good? when there are zero non-land permanents on the board? counterspells are situational too you know. since they only work when a spell is on the stack. they do absolutely nothing if your opponent already has a threat on the table. was i talking about boardwipes in cedh? nope. i was talking about counterspells and how they're used mostly for stopping your opponents from comboing off. furthermore boardwipes actually CAN stop your opponents from stopping you from winning. you're thinking too one-dimensionally. superfriends maybe? non-stop boardwipes kill your opponents creatures which allows you too move forward and win the game with your planeswalkers. or any deck that wins via combo or any non-combat damage is going to love boardwipes because YOUR OPPONENTS KILLING YOU WITH THEIR CREATURES STOPS YOU FROM WINNING! these are fundamentals of the game and i'm surprised i have to explain them to people. I'M NOT DONE YET: "Board wipes aren’t always reliable card advantage"? okay well take that rhystic study out of your deck. not reliable card advantage at all since your opponents can just pay. while your at it chuck that necropotence since it's useless if you have very little life. saying that a card isn't good in certain situations is another ridiculous argument. what's it doing MOST OF THE TIME, is all the matters. and almost always, unless you have no idea what you're doing, boardwipes are card advantage.
@@edhdeckbuilding I play regular edh at a Relatively high but still budget friendly power level. Also you just put these words in my mouth, I never said that I personally use counterspells to stop my opponents from stopping me from winning, but even if I did it wouldn't make the argument less valid. Furthermore I never ever said board wipes are useless or anything remotely close to that. But they're situational cards, that are great in certain situations but will do very little for you in others, so you don't always want one in your hand! Also what do you want to tell me with that dumb rhystic study strawman argument, it does not prove your point it just makes you look butthurt because I'm not sharing your opinion.
I know this video is 3 years old, at the time of this comment, but part of "misconception", imo, is not what why mono white is weak in commander, but to me it's more about what green can't do
Following up on the above - while your assessment is good. But the professor's argument in his video assumed mono-white, but you're using multi-color cards in part of your argument. Imo, it doesn't seem fair
I love your channel and I agree that white isn’t bad. However, I disagree with so many of your semantics. Multi-colored cards shouldn’t count as “white” because you can’t play anguished unmaking in a boros deck. If we just look at mono colored cards for the purpose of comparison, white is good at denying resources, which draws hate, which gets you killed first in a multiplayer format. In 1v1, there is no worry about hate so resource denial is just as good as the strategies of the other colors. That’s why white is “bad” in commander. It’s the social aspect that makes it bad, not the mechanics of the format itself
@@edhdeckbuilding i think the difference is simply that 20 lands on the feild isnt going to make anyone want to stop playing with you nearly as fast as playing a pillowfort deck, honestly. I love white and its become my favorite color, but ive litterally had people scoop because they say that i was playing some form of recource denial deck, and i think thats really the issue: people play commander (usually) to just throw some cards down on the table rather than to win. They want to have arms races and "do their thing". i believe that because thats all i ever did with green or red or black and thats all anyone ever did against me. White is good at the ONE thing that is hated most in commander because it stops people from being able to have their arms races. And while it sucks, i can feel the frustration that comes with playing someone whos entire deck essentially filled with cards made specifically to keep you from doing anything. I dont think id want to waste 40 minutes of my time watching a dude tap my shit when i could be racing to the finish to nuke them before they nuke me. Personally, im glad white is getting more draw and ramp. I personally do not like that every other color has a way to gain access to their biggest cards so much faster than me, and my only responce to that is considered the most frustrating thing in the format. I feel that giving white the ability to cantrip as often as it can now is a good way to mitigate the frustration, or to make cards like tenuous truce or wedding ring where multiple people benefit from it, and where you are forced into trying to convince someone to not kill you yet if you even want to do it. It does a similar effect to pillowforts where no one wants to attack you, but makes games way less frustrating to play in. If were gonna talk about what a color SHOULDNT DO, i feel like of all colors, white isnt the color to complain about. White isnt what makes atraxa so powerful, it just doesnt help that she benefits from having it. Green now has almost as many ways to get treasures as red and black do, and that FRUSTRATES me. Giving every color a little treasure just for a few cards wouldnt be such a bug deal, but green does it SO much now that the color that rejects technology the MOST now has the ability to ramp with artifacts too. Thats JUST taking away from red and black (and i suppose blue to a much lesser extent). Green is getting more and more removal cards, but i dont see that as nearly a problem as them just simply being abke to ramp in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. Like blue cards dont impulse draw, red doesnt get to take extra turns without then losing the game (obeka not included, were arentookign at individual cards), why the hell does green get to do this??
White isn’t the best removal, though they do have more options but the high end removal is rarely white. Stax is a deck type that kinda ruins the format, it discourages interaction between players with makes games crawl. So it’s typically avoided. Pillow fort is great but it’s not a win condition and most decks are designed to seek for that win condition. Maybe if there is more options to use the high toughness of creatures and or walls it would be a better tactic. ((Mind you there is and with the commander adding a draw engine makes that deck go ham)). Though in my option there needs to be more options for that tactic. White is the best life gain color period. So good in fact you gotta relay on it or tokens if you want any solid kind of card draw. It’s why the few commanders that is top of the list has a draw engine of some sort or is life gain based. White is a bad color by itself but splashed it’s pretty good. Say in white/black it supports black’s short coming with artifact and enchantment removal. I’m going to be one of those who says white needs help. No doubt about that.
high end removal is not white? examples? and talking shit about pillowfort and stax seems silly since people having been using those strategies for decades and winning games with them. you think that writing a quick blurb about how pillowfort is bad undoes all the games people have won with it? like i said in the video, you don't like white? don't play it. i think it's great and win games all the time with my mono-white decks. maybe simic is more your speed.
@@edhdeckbuilding I know I'm late to the party, but it's because I've been binging all your videos recently as I really enjoy them. This one though I really didn't, felt a lot of points were disingenuous and your responses to people who have criticisms have been super childish. I don't care if white is your favourite colour, it's also mine but you don't see me telling people they're dumb for not wanting to play stax.
@@Oakwin_mb I totally agree. Not only that, but he has been hiding any comments that criticize his points. I know this because one of my reply in this thread is no longer visible unless I sign in. I wouldn't be surprised if he started removing criticisms altogether.
This is an awesome video! I'm gonna send this to my play groups. They need an adjustment on the way they view white. They all hate white and I play a lot of it in my multicolor decks. I now have a deck for each mono color and I love each one of them cause it's what they do best. Very strong decks and I rarely loose with them. Currently building an Elesh Norn infect deck because I love white and infect. Probably not going to be able to play it much, but I'm sure it's going to be my favorite deck. More people need to build a mono white deck and play it, then they will understand and be more open to someone playing it in commander. It's looked down on for the wrong reasons! Thanks again man! Dig this video 🤟
A great take and analysis as usual EDH DECKBUILDING 😎👍. I would love to see a video like this for the other 4 colors, you always bring either an interesting view or I end up learning about some new cards 😄
White also has really good reanimation abilities. My mono white avacyn deck ramps out fairly quickly with artifacts and keeps all threats away through constant wrath effects. Even if my Avacyn is exiled I can just reanimate my creatures that get destroyed from my own board wipes.
I can agree with you, white in magic is probably my favorite color. Considering it's usually looked down on it makes winning with mono-white decks all the sweeter. Michiko Konda was probably my favorite mono-white commander deck I have made with Elesh Norn being my second.
I think instead of white just having good removal of all things , It needs engines that are designed to play around whites strengths. For example, blue recently got archmage emaratus, green has the great henge , black have phyrexian alter and red has fruious rise/ all other impulse draw. If white had some sinergistic engine cards, more people would be attracted to playing the strategy’s those engines supported
I have been watching for a while now (around when the top ten cards videos were getting popular.) And I cant stop binging on your vids. Such a breath of fresh air and a realistic view on things and this is no exception. Keep up the great videos, cant wait to see more!
@@edhdeckbuilding oh I cant wait! You really nailed it with this one, and I am very much inspired to brew with white again. I was thinking about Yasharn a lot recently and im going to go for it! I like punishing lands in unconventional ways so I will start there. And see if I can go for more tax than stax with him (I know the difference now so thanks for that too haha.)
me as a mono white / orhov ONLY player cant agree more with this video, white does everything good, or at least average. there are so many options for ramp, carddraw when you include lifegain / token creation, removal and you can even play mono white combo decks. White does not require more "staple / broken cards" it needs more reprints of the staples and more scetchy options for these cards. ( looking at for example kor cartographer, which is a nice ramp, but only good in mono white or orzhov ). in my oppinion the new "catch up cards"that make you ramp when people have more lands, or make tokens if you have less creatures are a great way of keeping white where it should be: removing high value stuff, slowly grinding out a game and go for the win. Keep up the good work man, recently started watching ur vids, quite hooked on em.
The lifegain thing is funny to me. Its true that the golgari commanders don't gain life and its kinda a problem. Dina kinda gets around it with aristocrats but even so, it would be good to have a way to gain life in the command zone. But then of the white commanders there are a bunch that gain life but there are enough good ways to gain life that you really want a payoff in the command zone. So each color gets the commander the other wishes it had.
I just built a mono white Voltron commander deck with Eight-And-A-Half-Tails. It’s focused on equipment and equipment cheaters (Hammer of Nazhan, Stonehewer Giant, etc.) then make him huge with other equipment (Strata Scythe and Blackblade Reforged), and then using his ability to make everything white and give him protection with his abilities and other enchantments like Circle of Protection: White. It’s actually really good at doing 10+ commander damage on turns 3-4, but it falls apart to non-targeted removal. Overall I’m pretty damn happy with its power level despite being mono-white.
I feel like white is more of a don't knock it until you try it thing. I used to not like white for like, literally no reason until I built my Odric deck. What I thought was gonna be a one-and-done deck that I would disassemble the same night has quickly become my go-to fun casual deck, and dropping akroma, vision of ixidor to wipe out the table never gets old. Plus, just watching this video has made me realize just how influential white is to the game as a whole, I play Noyan Dar from time to time and have just realized that basically all of my removal as well as the majority of my boardwipes in that deck are indeed white. Just goes to show that white is probably just more underappreciated than it is underpowered.
Idk about this one... I'd rather have options than be forced to do what "white does best", and play things like stax, because then you won't have a playgroup to play with. Why do all the other colors have MULTIPLES of options whereas white generally has crappy versions of (X) type of spells (draw, ramp, etc.)? I thought Professor had some great points regarding this specific topic, and morein with his train of thought. I think its important to note when Professor posted that video, a few of the recent cards highlighted in this video weren't even released yet. It's improving but we are not there yet.
And before any "WELL ACTUALLY.." COMMENTS, my first edh deck was a monowhite 8 tails, and I play white currently throughout a few decks like Edgar Markov. I ain't hating, I just expect more :)
EDH Deckbuilding is pretty spot on MOST things, and I love his takes. It's ok to disagree, and I see the merits of his points in this video. If the things white does the best at are frowned upon in EDH, let's give white something else to excel at. It doesn't have to be OP. Give us options to open up what white has going for it.
so are we now turning the entire game of magic into commander? what you're talking about is what wotc has been doing of late. forget about what white has been doing for 30 years because it doesn't work good in one format. the legacy death and taxes player certainly doesn't mind that white doesn't ramp or draw well. should we completely change white as a color just because it doesn't fit well in one format? also, you don't need to be "forced" to do anything. just don't play white if you don't like it. simple as that.
I've always loved white and what it does. I never thought of the board wipes are card advantage aspect, that's such a good point. Great video as always Demo!
I (mostly) agree with you. I think the thing is how you define "best". The "best" removal is in white, for sure. That is defining "best" as efficient. Anyway, recently found your channel, super cool stuff m8, keep it going!
I agree that colors need to maintain a uniqueness otherwise all colors will eventually be the same . I do think the “white is the worst color “ is a common misconception , I actually believe no color can claim that title right now , but I have no doubt that green is the best.
I believe an important problem people have with white lies in gameplay weaknesses. White having typically less resources, board and card advantage often come out of good timing and planning, as you explained with your example of board wipes. Where the other colours can waste some resources, white mages need to spend their resources wisely to pull ahead. There's a reason mono-white Death & Taxes is a fixture of eternal formats, which usually attract more experienced players.
Very nice to see some love for White! Great channel with some interesting thoughts. Found your channel few days ago with the "10 cards you should be putting in your commander decks" and I just ordered a bunch :D
thank you so much for your video because i play a lot of white based deck recently and i always make some changes to my decks because i dont win but it never changes the outcome. And I was thinking I should maybe focus more in what white does best instead of trying to mimic other colors in terms or value.
Wow that is one great argument video for white. I recently build a mono white angel lifegain deck and more often than not I’m the scariest player. It’s very consistent even though it has a relatively high average cmc. It’s also restrictive in its own unique way which makes deck building in mono colors (and white specific) a lot of fun.
I just got into MTG and am building Blue White and yeah...some of those mono white cards that are super important to have are just TOO expensive since they haven't been reprinted...Teferi's Protection is a perfect example...like 10 dollars ? Ok maybe I could justify that, I've just bought some singles that are between 1 and 5 bucks but 30-50 bucks for one card? No idea why they can't reprint some of those if it is known that they are highly important cards
Thats what i always gets me with the "White is good now, look at all the op new cards it got" arguments. Like yeah, i guess i can make a op white as long as i have unlimited budget or hate myself.
Or want others to hate you, HAHA, I feel like most of the ways I've seen white dominate a Commander match are by explicitly locking down the board state by saying "No, you can't do that now" or "You must pay the toll if you wish to do anything". I mostly just play "fair magic" with Azorius now where I amass tokens, give them all evasion with Harbin, Vanguard Aviator or a substitute for that effect of some kind and then get card draw value from blue cards and pillowfort a good bit from white cards. I ended up diving in SUPER HARD to Magic in the past 10 months and ended up making a deck that Archidekt claims is about $515 dollars, some of that is because I'm a Foils Hoe and love pretty cards but also because I caved and bought Esper Sentinel, Teferi's Protection...that sort of thing.@@DM-Oz
I feel as though the white card draw tends to force you into a specific deck and strategy. Im pretty sure white hate bears is one of the most effective strats in mono white. We just got the group hug sorcery which is kind of a dead card if youre 1v1 and we also just got that new legendary creature that cares about artifact creatures. weve got all of those instants and sorceries that do something and draw a card but I dont think theres really a commander that supports that strat unless you go feather. Armistice might be okay with the angel of destiny but thats not a commander and 5 mana is pretty steep. Mesa enchantress is for enchamenmt decks which can synergize with the pillow fort and stax strat. puresteel paladin puts you in equipment. there are others like sram but i guess what im getting at sis that the best card draw cards in white dont synergize with each other well imo. EDIT: I just saw Mavinda Students Advocate. Might try that with all of the instants and sorceries that draw cards.
A lot of complaints are due to White not having many unique mechanics, and the strengths they have are quite limiting, opposed to other colors that give a plethora of choices that all have quite a lot of power. That being said, White definitely isn't weak, but it's more commander reliant to create a strong strategy. (i.e. Elesh Norn can seriously screw people up but it's only super strong once your commander hits the board in a lot of situations)
I agree with everything on this list. I built an Aurelia deck where I ran 13 boardwipes. In my mono white Golos Emeria deck, the plan is boardwipe a lot of stuff, recur amazing creatures like Norn and Serra Ascendant, and run mana sinks like Castle Ardenvail (or however you spell that) Adanto the First Fort, Dawn of Hope and Sacred Mesa. I use those because I don’t draw cards well so I have excess mana so I make a bunch of tokens and use cards like Mentor of the Meak, skull clamp, and Soul sister effects with Dawn of Hope or Well of Lost Dreams to turn them into cards. I was in a 1v1 against Korvold and because I had a sac outlet and sun titan that a Rule of Law held him back until a Mayhem Devil killed me because I Haden’s added the best lifegain cards like Gisela of the Broken Blade and Serra Ascendant to counteract the incremental pings. I will continue to quote Commander Replay on the only real issue with white: It’s win conditions suck. Norn is the best by far (if a 7 mana white creature that doesn’t draw cards sees play in CEDH its very strong) and the White Suns because it’s an instant. But then the quality tanks hard. All these “make X angels” cards are garbage because I have 5 or 6 of them and don’t even consider them for white and green TOKEN decks, the ideal place for an X spell that makes loads of tokens.
What white lacks vs other colors is adaptable play's like black blue and red all steal your stuff now, mono green goes out of control way to fast and is a highly adaptable color you can do all kinds of combo plays with 2-3 cards. Meanwhile mono white combos with 3-4 cards and most of them either high cost (which white has trouble Drawing or ramping into) and since the white cards are either over costed or only allow parody meaning your always a turn behind or several turns behind the other players at the table, in commander at least. What mono white in particular needs is cards that actually put them in the lead vs other players or cards with more combo potential/replacement effects IE Opposition agent which 100% should have been a white card not black card since black is way too power creeped of a color, mono black is creeping up on mono green in terms of pure card power
white is absolutely not the best at removal toxic deluge, meathook massacre, deadly rollick the best removal spells in the game (for commander) but thats what where talking about right?
Just built a black and white deck and it's awesome, really enjoy some of the white angel cards and who doesn't love zombies!? ( After watching your video on a life gaining build I made one with witherbloom, tweaked it a little and you no what it plays really well, a very capable deck. Thank you for sharing your knowledge most appreciated.)
Thankyou for the comment about card advantage and board wipe, too many people simply don't understand this. If anything, it's bait, i will allow you to play all the things you want, as i can now put more of your deck into your GY or Exile.
Great video mate. You are right about this mentality people have about the colours. The game is so complicated that you have to try out for yourself some of the decks and strategies out there, untill you realise how busted they can become. A good deck is a good deck. It may not have the ability to produce 10 mana turn 5 but it may be able to handle everything that's happening with only 5 mana. What differs is how you approach the game and what makes a good player is the ability to understand, create and play different strategies and decks.
I have been binging your videos for a few days now and you are already one of my favourite creators for edh. I groan every single time when creators spout 'white bad' without even doing a little bit of research on scryfall or even edhrec for that matter. Every time I try to explain to people I play with how to play with white cards, I open more eyes because it really is simple. You just need to be focused on synergy. Try to use any card in your deck multiple times or make it flexible. There are fewer ridiculously busted cards in white than in green, but white can do almost anything really, except "drawing". Is anyone mentioning how white has almost just as much reanimation effects as black? For creatures and permanents of any type? Anyone mentioning the insane flicker and blink cards? Anyone mention the fact, that white is better at ramping than any other color except green? Every creator trying to discuss white almost always instantly goes to the 'yeah mass land destruction is White's thing, but in commander it's not seen' argument trying to defend White without ever just looking at the damn cards and effects White has to offer. In short, I really like your channel :D
My first deck ever built for edh is a karametra goodstuff deck with lots of land-ramp and removal. One thing people don't seem to get how complimentary green and white as a combination can be. It is a powerhouse.
I think the problem is, is that they have pretty much smashed the colour pie with all the other colours but yet White seems to be the only one where the Colour pie matters. Black dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts for example.
Love some Mono-White. God-Eternal Oketra is my Mono-White Commander. Had to learn how best to apply White in my play groups. Now it is my most consistent Deck. The key is to find your Deck’s niche and play to it.
I know Im late to the party, to this video and magic in general. Just started playing 2 months ago. I just built a mono white phyrexian toxic/lifelink/token deck. Its way more OP I ever intended and nobody really wants to play against it now lol. I feel like a commander deck would be doable with this, not sure how but working on it. But from my short term experience, I just dont understand the hate against white. So far I think its the best. Between white and my black/green deck. Im personally impressed with how complex and how much variety for balance this game offers. This game was very well created. Looking forward to commander. Hopefully a mono white experience isnt bad like everyone says it is. I just cant see how. My deck is already OP as hell in standard. Its undefeated so far with all my friends. I play at work, and with 5 of my friends at home, so its gotten alot of experience so far and Im still doing more to improve it which is nuts.
Outside of artifacts, what colors have true ramp other than green. White has 1, search for a plains and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Most of other white ones require an opponent to control more lands than you. Also most of those the lands go to the hand, not the battlefield. So not ramp, but not missing land drops. Black has a couple ways to get swamps to the hand but not to the battlefield. Blue I didn't see anything for islands. Red has 1 that goes to the battlefield, off a creature. But if that creature leaves, you have to sac a mountain. So i would say that white is the 2nd best at ramping. You just have to play the ramp card before your land drop for the turn.
i agree, white is king of removal; in terms of monowhite decks, i've played, i never need to care about anything my opponents do outside of instant and sorceries because usually, as you've mentioned, we'd be easily running so many sweepers for every permeant type that the only real question is having the ability to cast them; usually at 3-5cmc. additionally, cataclsym is easily one of my favorite wipes; since i often play voltron and it usually closes the game for me. people sometimes forget that simply not being player 1 means your land tax, tithe and gift of the estates are active; and any of those cards instantly makes sure that a) you will always have land drops on curve period, b) you would also thin out the deck to draw more action as well.
I’d agree that white is best at removing artifacts and enchantments, but I think black is way better at creature removal on a consistent, cheap basic. Also, yes white has a lot of good board wipes, but in my opinion, toxic deluge, cyclonic rift, and blastmous act are the 3 best board wipes in the format, making white just feel lukewarm. Yeah you can have have a lot of good wipes, but none of the best. I definitely see your point though about white being good at things that people don’t like doing. That makes a lot of sense to me. I do think that printing good MONO white cards would be a good thing though. I’m not talking smothering tithe, I’m talking something at or just below the level of archaeomansers map at a 1 WW or preferably a WWW mana cost. That prevents a lot of multicolor decks from playing them while making mono white more viable. Yes white is good at life gain, but it’s a failing strategy oftentimes, so even the things white is good at generally are weaker strategies than the things green is good at (ramp and card draw)
I’m not arguing that black has a better top 5 board wipes, I’m arguing that it has a few and generally, that’s all you need. For example, in rakdos you have toxic deluge, blasphemous act, and damnation. In a control deck you probably want a couple more and that’s where white starts to pull ahead IMO, but in an aggressive or midrange deck, I don’t think you want more than a few which black + anything can find pretty easily
@@matthewdavis7869 so 2 black boarwipes? that doesn't seem great. also damnation is better then austere command or hallowed burial or cleansing nova. no chance imo. also what's cheaper than path to exile or swords to plowshares? if cheap is your concern than white does that as well.
I've been playing mono-white for years in my playgroup of friends now. And I've tuned multiple white decks (one especially) so that the others need to unpack their tier 2 cEDH decks at least to have a chance to beat it (of course it uses hate bears / stax, but no pillow fort and no land destruction). The commander? Bruna, the Fading Light. Yes, that Angel which costs 7 mana. Nobody takes it serious when they see it for the first time. But it is actually competitive. I need to explicitly tell people to unpack something strong or they'll get stomped and have no fun. Reanimating or recurring creatures and other permanents is really overwhelming if you play a board wipe and your side of the field doesn't even look different at the end of the turn. When somebody new is introduced to the group, my friends say "he's cracked mono-white". And concerning ramp: Way too often I'm the one with the most lands in play - even with a UG dedicated ramp deck at the table. It just can't function underneath the hate bears while I can keep ramping with Equipment (there's 3 now) and other effects. There has been so much ramp printed in mono white these last few years, you don't even need to play all of it anymore. You think this is bogus? Build this deck and try it at home: www.moxfield.com/decks/R91uUPj-c0-XANNrWLdH3A
If they give white card draw and ramp it will just play like all the other colors, what is the point of that? Good video liked it a lot! Im inspired to try and make a Thalia deck happen. Or maybe go red too and have Archangel avacyn. I personally like the risk/reward type style of red. Just dont like the aggro archetype in general.
Auras is quite white if you think of the cards that reduces cist of them and payoffs. I'm building a Sram or lightpaw deck at the moment and there is quite some cards now that supports it in white. Also with the white defiler you can reduce the cost of auras to phyrexian life mana. Going to try next fnm I can go to.
You bring up a great point that I agree with and had also considered before. White is never allowrd to play to its strengths because people get mad when you do. Hatebears? Stax? Great White strategies. Land destruction? Slightly shared between White and Red, but I mean, White could do it! As for your point about card advantage, I'm torn, because, yeah, getting rid of a ton of permanents with one spell is card advantage, but card draw is essential in the game. Denying that to white is definitely bringing the color down, which is why I want to see what other options EOTC comes up with to give card draw to white.
As a fellow white mage, I mostly agree with you. The "ramp" complaint has blown out of proportions. For card draw, though, I believe white should be better at drawing in its spheres of expertise. I really like the design of the new Mangara, for example.
Well said, white is an underrated color. Board wipes and single target for 1 mana is super hard to beat. I personally prefer black mostly because I abuse the sacrifice mechanic and there are some amazing low cmc single target cards including force of despair which is only like 1-2$ currently. Is it better than white removal? It's hard to say and may be up to personal preference, but I love sacrifice because it bypasses hexproof and indestructible! That's hard to beat in my book. White does hit permanents which is a huge advantage. Currently building an aristocrats deck with sacrifice and reanimate effects with Tevesh and Keskit. Can't wait to see people look at my partner commanders and ask why am I playing two black commanders and not multiple colors. That will be half the fun. Edit: after double checking force of despair I realized it hits multiple creatures that enter on the same turn. That's some spice.
Great info vid. I feel like white is great as well, how ever I feel it is at its best as a support role for any color. I have yet to make a EDH mono white, not sure what to make cause I like themes. I have made a soldier white removal Pauper deck and it can fair against any style of deck.
"People won't be complaining about how weak white is, they'll be complaining about how their lands arnt untapping" 😂 Keep up the great videos.
I would love if wizard would print more cards that benefits for having fewer colours
agreed
YES
Yes
That's a good ass idea dude
Maybe another set focused on devotion? Make some great cards that cost 5 coloured mana so multi-coloured decks struggle to run them.
More people need to see this video
I agree
"Every color needs to have a downside"
Green: Am I a joke to you?
Green struggles with removal, and 90% of green’s strat is casting fatties, if you take away their ramp they’re left with nothing. Blue on the other hand can do just about everything, even the “downsides” are laughable.
I think you mean blue the color that gets everything and has the highest power creep by far
Ever tried finding boardwipes for a mono-green deck? They all really suck hard at that :D
Green is REALLY good at doing its own thing but its not amazing at stoping other players from doing thing there, other than artifact and enchantment removal.
@@LoveStrangeDr Blue is bad at dealing with board presence, particularly non-creature board presence. The fact it's good at drawing into removal in other colors but is also good at tempo plays like creature/spell bounce and tapdown is why it's so good. Its poor card quality on average at low CMC is made up by its sheer card advantage and ability to buy enough time to get to an actual answer, or combo off.
There's this fine line where other colors would normally get under it in 1v1 formats that just doesn't function in multi-player that well, and Red & White often struggle at going over it without dipping into multi-color, where all bets are off anyways.
White's problem is it needs card selection, not card advantage. I want white to have Tutors, not card draw. The color that's all about law and order should be good at implementing its rules in an orderly fashion, which tutors simulate perfectly. Hell I think White has a stronger case than black does for that effect in particular.
Whites best cards are either banned officially in the rules or unofficially by the playgroup. I'd be fine if white got some other ability to replace stax / tax going forward just for EDH style games. If the community's feedback is - in this format - these cards are not fun to play against - it would make sense to push the color in another direction. Not saying it should lose its feeling in standard / legacy - just that it should gain a new set of abilities that are fun to play in the Commander format.
Especially when they can release such types of cards specifically in commander sets!
But then what direction would it be? Do you have anything specific in mind?
@@Loxorius They can either leverage current things white does well and keep going that route, or they need to provide something new. I'm doubtful of WotC providing white something new that other colors don't get outside maybe a keyword ability (think Shadow, but for white).
So, they are more likely to expand on what they already have - which is what they are doing currently. For example, the new Heliod for lifegain interaction, or providing alternatives like Monologue Tax to staples like Smothering Tithe.
I think of "Order" and "Anthem/Tokens" when I think of "safe" white, so maybe something tied to number of cards equaling others (they just printed Archaeomancer's Map), or make White the defacto Politics color. Make it unique enough to seperate what Azorious decks already do.
I think a devotion type mechanic may serve white well if it isn't superceded by the other colors. Hell, give white some kind of Exodia type effect where if enough of the "common people" get together (like a modified Party mechanic), they become Voltron or can recruit (tutor) specific cards from deck. Cycling, Cantrips, and Persist/Undying type effects all seem easy enough to add and fit with the color. There are already similar cards and mechanics, just need WotC to lean into that more so that our deck slots are filled with more quality options. That's where other colors get ahead - they have options.
@@Artharios77 a lot of interesting ideas, thanks for the detailed answer!
@@Loxorius Lots of these ideas came from EDH content creators, or from their initial ideas. No problem! Keeping fingers crossed where all parties are happy in the future.
I agree that every color should have a downside. That’s why I’m tired of green stealing whites things
Im tired of blue stealing every colors thing
I'm tired of blue .
@@nathanhawkins9959 Clone goes brrr! At least blue is somewhat reliant on what the other decks have for stealing...
beast within shouldnt be able to hit creatures
I'm sure this is white prof's second account
My main pod had to learn the hard way to respect my Sephara Skys Blade mono white deck.
Same here! I've been archenemy in nearly every game I've played Sephara. Very rarely have I ever felt behind on ramp and card draw.
You bring your Sephara deck and I'll bring my Lyra deck and we will be the two last decks standing in any pod.
was thinking of building her or avacyn and fill my deck with board wipes
Nearly dropped the idea of building a Kytheon Deck but you saved it. I'm shocked how much I let myself manipulate from general stuff like "lol mono w? Good luck without draw & ramp" ... Thank you very much! And keep uploading that awesome stuuuuuff
this video was worth it for just that. and i'm being entirely serious.
literally ended up coming here cause i like mono white needed some help making it better would appear being a dick is what i was missing
Actually, you do hear 60-card Constructed players, esp. Standard watchers, complaining about white getting shafted. A lot of the staple white cards are old, and other colors have intruded into white’s color pie in noticeable ways (in particular Hullbreacher and Opposition Agent).
Of course, these people aren’t mad about white being bad. They’re mad about white getting shafted.
I'm a Izzet player, yet I cannot deny that you're right. Good job.
Play Jeskai :D
I’m new to MTG. And I love the play style of white. I’m not sure if other colors can do it, but I love the healing it does. The life link or whatever.
Good video, but I have to disagree on one point. 3:37 - "Smothering Tithe is a tax card... people think of it as a ramping card, which it's not. It's actually a tax card." While technically it is a tax effect, it almost never plays as one. This unfortunately came about because they made the tax too high; if it had been "Are you going to pay the 1?" like Rhystic Study, people would actually consider paying into it, and I would agree. But at 2 mana per draw, players rarely pay the mana, and it simply plays like a ramp card. We might be in the area of arguing a distinction without a difference, but 99% of the time I've seen Smothering Tithe, it was a straight ramp card.
Additionally, as an *optional* tax, it doesn't really play like a tax spell. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV makes it so you can't play stuff without paying the tax. Smothering Tithe doesn't interfere with your ability to do things.
I kinda wish it was a {2/W} instead of {2} sometimes
I agree, but my concern is that wizards employees have gone on record saying they will print less or stop printing the 'unfun' strategies and that swords to plowshares were mistakes. My concern is more with white's future than the current position it is in.
Imo land destruction is more a red thing, otherwise pretty much on point. I might add "protecting your stuff" is often a white strength also.
A take on "printing busted white cards": I think mana cost would be a good screw to regulate them not being in too much multi colored decks.
(Like your example of Hour of Revelation. 'www' can be a big thing to ask an Abzan deck)
If white gets a card which allows it to return any creature from exile, that would be an end game.
You nailed it (again), and you're my #1 source for CMDR perspectives. Just finished building a Bant deck that's 75% white and has 10 board wipes and several spot removals in it. It beat my best deck on the first trip out.
good to hear. i'm going to start doing more content like this on the channel. i really do want to move away from what everyone else is doing.
I built a mono white Mangara the Diplomat super friends with heavy board wipes on cockatrice and the one game the guy said. "Is it just me or is that Mangara player taking over the game?"
I have one as my main white edh!
@@twostepz4982 that's cool how many walkers and board wipes are you running? Think I'm running 10 of each.
ooh can you paste the decklist? id love to try it out online!
@@fosterdawson7339 I have the list in a notebook I'll type it up you will just have to give me a little bit
@@robertmendez8383 sweet thanks!
I think a major factor is that many of the OG white signature things turned out not very good. Just think of the boon cycle. How many people can even name the white one? Everyone knows dark ritual or giant growth.
Yeah white is great at giving you a high life total. But what does that usally get you in a multiplayer format? A big target on your back. My biggest issue with the recent Green/Black" Lifegain" cards is not that they give those colors better lifegain than white. It's that they (specially Black) got way better payoffs for lifegain than what white usually gets. They got ways to ramp, make creatures huge, get card advantage and deal direct damage to the dome. 90% of the time white lifegain payoffs give you +1/+1 counters and that's it.
does a high life total make you more of a target than having a rhystic study in play? or having more lands than everybody else? or having golos in the command zone? i sure hope not, or your playgroup needs more practice.
Lol white just gets alternate win conditions through life gain. Guess casting cards that just auto win is harder than drain 😂
@@killersamson7881 The cards that "autowin" the game work on upkeep, which means they have to survive a round of the table. Drain works when you cast. Think Mark, think.
White is my favorite color as well, so this is a nice essay
A big problem with the reasoning here is you are saying that other colors having a couple cards that do things as well as white doesn’t make white no longer the best at X. But decks don’t need 30 examples, they need 5 or 10 to fill the slot of the deck. If the other colors have 5 or 10 cards that are just as good as what white does it doesn’t matter that white has 100.
For example, look at card draw. Comparatively blue has 656 cards that draw cards and green has 210. But functionally do you really think green has a harder time drawing cards than blue? Hell no because the top 10 draw cards in both colors are equally as powerful and the remaining 200-600 cards don’t matter.
rebuff the wicked, lapse of certainty, illumination, mana tithe. i guess white is the color of counterspells. step aside blue!
@@edhdeckbuilding Are those nearly as useful as the blue ones though? Of those you have 2 with targeting limitations, one that is a very minor tax and nearly useless in formats that don’t end in 3-4 turns, and one that only delays the spell.
Now if they printed 5 counter spells in white (without also needing blue) of equal utility as Counterspell, Swan Song, Arcane Denial, Mana Drain, and Fierce Guardianship then yeah white would have just as good of a presence as blue for counter spells as blue does even though blue would still have 100 times as many to pick from.
agreed. blue is much better at counterspells. that's the point i was trying to make. nevertheless you can fill 4-5 slots in your mono-white deck with counterspells.
@@edhdeckbuilding right, but you’re sidestepping their argument. Lapse in Certainty/other White Counterspells can’t be compared to even some weaker counterspells that Blue has. Meanwhile other “exceptions to the rule” that other colors have been taking from White (taking Blue as an example, the color’s recent exile based removal, or stax effects like Hullbreacher), have been comparable or even better than what White has. Sure it’s only “a few cards”, but those colors are getting close to having (or already have) enough cards to fill decks with things that do White effects, while not needing White to do it.
i agree that other colors should stop stealing from white. but white still is the best at these things. sure hullbreacher or opposition agent shoulda been white. but white still has lots of other great effects like that.
I've had an Eight-and-a-Half-Tails deck built since it was T2 legal. Being mono white has its drawbacks, but if you lean heavily into white's strengths, and build your deck properly, you can stand with multicolored decks. Thanks for the vid, sir.
Second the “lean on your strengths.” I have built Boros decks that have destroyed Muldrotha and Locus God decks in the past. Mono white is a bit more tricky due to red being an amazing color at ending games, but it’s still really easy to dismantle those decks.
Is it an EaaHT stax or what? I've got a Voltron one and its my bby.
Please inform me of your deck list! I just made an EAAHT deck and I was wondering what direction you took it so I can make some adjustments. Would be greatly appreciated friend!
I agree with a fair amount of this, but ramp and card draw are still pretty important, and I don’t want white to be the best at it, and I don’t want any more smothering tithes. I want uncommons that make mono white decks that are fun for everyone easier and cheaper to build.
The problem is the people don’t want to play what white does well. You see all the time, games being created with qualifiers like “no stax” “no hate bears” “no boardwipes” and “No MLD”. Therefore, you are kinda left playing “fair white”. The only other qualifiers that colors get is blue, with no counters. No one is going to tables saying, “oh, I don’t want to play against turn 2 ramp spells” or “no aristocrats” . White also does anthems the best.
I have never agreed with @edhdeckbuilding as much as I do in this video. White is a fantastic color. I was so upset when the professor made the incorrect assumption that white isn't the best color in removal.
always felt like white balances other colors alot of people add white for its removal, what would be dope is lean into that i want a commander that utilizes removal better
I feel like the only real disadvantage white has is that it feels like every other color is allowed to bleed into one another from time to time, but white the one that feels the most like it keeps it's corner of the pie separate from the others
People hate white’s strongest strategies. Most of the white hate is directed to mono-white, most people I speak with agree that it is a great support colour, but that it was missing important pieces for a multiplayer game as a mono--colour.
Cards over the last few years have addressed this, but the problem still is that they are highly splashable and so people haven’t then considered white to be much stronger as a mono, just a better support colour. I guess most people think that there’s no reason/reward to play mono-white
I think a real issue with white isn't that it "doesn't do anything" but rather that it does "too much" "too good". As someone that has always wanted to play it but has never gotten it right, it seems really easy to screw up (or piss off the table). It comes off as the color for deciding what game everyone is going to be playing, but if you don't know what *you're* doing, the only one getting taxed is going to be you, making it look like it can't do anything when it's really you (probably damaging its reputation further). On the flip side, I'll never forget the day Ajani's avatar punched me in the face for 101 damage out of nowhere and 100 tokens as backup "just in case" my one 4/4 Jund creature got scrappy or something. (That said, "get good" is rarely ever going to be an argument that actually wins you points with a detractor, instead making a valid point seem less valid otherwise, but you sounded more frustrated than serious. I mean, I already know I'm not good at the game; I can't play white.)
I do disagree about tokens though: short of Krenko and...other Krenko for red or Avenger of Zendikar for green, what cards can reliably keep up with white in token volume, let alone density, right out of the gate? It's like a body tax, and who does taxes better than white?
When people started playing Hullbreacher, I put Armageddon back in my deck :)
seriously, mass land destruction needs to be not taboo anymore
Gota disagree on that. The game is meant to be fun for everyone not just the 9ne in the lead if you destroy everyone's land it turns the game into either a game of solitaire or pass go. Leave land distruction in competitive play
@@amangonemad5117 I can agree that land destruction for the sake of stalling the game is a bad play. However it can (and should) be used to close out the game when you get ahead. If I couldn't close the game within 2 turns, I wouldn't play it.
@@markgaudy while that might be your plan 2 turns of no lands pass still isn't fun. And if anyone stops your combo or finds some other way stopping you then your back to no land pass and still turns the game into solitaire because your the only one who can do anything
@@morgoth2425 In the end mtg is usually meant for recreation so people won't be happy when they don't actually get to cast spells and have fun.
There are always playgroups who will play with your land destruction but a lot won't cause it beats the point of the game for them
The sorry professor really fucking got me
I mean, I complain about white because I want it to be better, not *just* because white sucks. In fact, I agree with some of what you said in your video. board wipes are good card advantage cards and white has some really banger removals, stax and durdling. people also often neglect what white does best and complain, but the complaints are still valid. yes these are strong advantages but "what if green or blue steals them?!?!??!??? what if they already have?!?!!?" is the complaint I usually get when talking about how bad white is. and then you look at how they balance white, just now they printed halo fountain and book of exalted deeds. I don't know about you, but if you have to balance a color by slapping "you win the game" or " you don't lose the game" on it, I think more work needs to be done to fix what ever problem lead to this situation. it's still a nice color, it's just that the potential behind it could've been so much better than it is now. I love board wiping and staxing and removal, but after that, now what? I swing with my aggressively costed five mana 2/2's? their's so much losing prevention, wizards forgot how to make white win (except bant because of course, it has the 2 best colors in commander.) at best, you splash white because you want to prevent losing, at worst you splash because it fits the flavor and because "why not?"
white is like having to choose between a torture device or a knife in a gun fight. one will be real slow and tough to actually pull off a kill yet bulky enough to still protect you, and the other is more aggressive, but not on par with others. because the advantages given are great, but what if a deck is too fast to stax or doesn't care about board wipes? then the given upside become downsides, and all of what makes white good gets countered by a measly super friends deck. if only white can win games by itself instead of making your opponent give you the win by scooping because "stax are annoying and not fun"... oh yeah, halo fountains and book of exalted deeds, because that's not gonna become annoying to see in every white deck. heck, why doesn't everyone that have white get azor's elecutors, barren glory and rise of the second sun? just give white all the alternate win cons, because making an actually creative and fun mechanic for white is totally not what people want, they want to win games!!!
that's why people want ramp and card draw in white. sure it doesn't actually solve white's problem but at least it's on par with resource management as other colors. what it really needs is diversity, and only wizards of the coast can give us that if their clever enough, or if they care enough.
i don't have a problem with white ramp, removal, board wipes, or stacks/tax effects. my main issue is win cons and card draw to an extent that doesn't require a colorless card. Things like Approach of the second sun is nice but without card draw it will be awhile. Most of mono-white is get a large army and swing with something like Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Life gain without walking ballista w/ Heliod, Sun-Crowned or Aetherflux Reservoir feels kinda bad(you just make tokens and a couple large creatures), Also most of the good white cards cost a lot and need reprints badly. When white is mixed with another color the issues that white has is gone but by itself it usually falls behind as white mostly polices the table and then runs out of things to do in my opinion. nice vid
I am a white mage (ok maybe boros). My first deck was Avacyn Angel of Hope, more than half my decks use white. However you are half wrong half right here. In regards to your argument about these complaints only being in commander. White does nothing well is as unsure as the statement that white doesn't need to change. The whole point of this format is to be magic x10. So yeah of course any color in commander needs draw and ramp. Draw is more important but ramp is still relevant. Black happens to be able to draw quite well, and it ramps with Cabal Coffers and Yawgmoth Tombs etc. Is board whiping card advantage? Kinda but its also not fun. That's the thing, getting more resources let's the opponent play their deck and doesn't feel bad to play against. That might be "unfortunate" but true.
I'd love to see white learn to embrace a group hug style where it helps everyone but it helps itself more. That would be very white and pretty fun.
You are correct that in commander many of the strats white is known for are avoided largely because they aren't fun to play against.
Is white the best at removal? Maybe, black is really good at creature removal, deathtouch creatures and edict effects and now they are getting more exile effects. Green is the best at enchantment removal.. White is good at removal and you might be able to argue that it is the most versatile removal, maybe in that sense it is best but that isn't anything like how blue or green is the best at draw or ramp. Now if you say white is the best at board whipes then you have a decent argument. One problem, board whipes are becoming less important and people don't like it when you whipe every couple turns. So its in with land destruction, and tax strategies. I just want white to have fun unique strats that everyone won't complain about. White exiles better, I agree with that
just because you think boardwipes are "less important" or people "don't like them" doesn't mean that they aren't extremely effective. i'll stack up my white removal against your black removal any day of the week.
I really enjoy playing Boros, and I've actually had a lot of success with my Firesong and Suspeaker deck. It's just a bit of a higher price tag than my other decks is all
Do you have a list? Got those two years ago bit never build them
My version made tokens to fill the battlefield and then hit with Earthquake effects...gained 400 life on 1 spell once.
Love this video! I've always really liked mono white, but have always been hesitant on building one due to the power level. I think I'll give it a try with some of these strategies now.
You mentioned non-white pillowfort, and I just wanna shoutout a Kardur Doomscourge pillowfort deck I played. The commander goads all your opponents' creatures on etb, so the whole game they were doing stuff to get the ETB again, either bouncing him back to their hand, or later on they got a Conjurer's Closet out and that was pretty much it for the rest of us. All that to say that Pillowfort is doable outside of white
Doesn't mean it's better than white at it, just that it's doable outside of white
@@DracoX-hz3tu yeeeeee
Propaganda exists too but it's one card vs 15+ in white.
That Kardur deck sounds fun! I was trying to build a jeskai goad deck but I think Kardur is the way I should go.
Monowhite and Boros are my favorite colors since they provide the best deckbuilding challenges. White does have a lot of strength in taxes, stax, hate bear and pillow fort, that being said, the problem is, NONE of these strategies help further your game plan. Bringing the game to a halt is not the same as moving towards victory and that's where I believe monowhite weaknesses lie. Sure you can boardwipe as much as you want, but eventually you're gonna run out of removal while your opponents may simply refill their hands with some well timed card draw spells and either redeploy their boards or combo off in the following turns. The one thing that monowhite needs very badly are WINCONS. Every color have their forms of wincon, be it in the form of Craterhoof Behemoth, Expropriate, Torment of Hailfire or Fire Emancipation. The closest thing monoW has is Elesh Norn and the newer Akroma's will.
how is stax a strategy at all than? that archetype has been around for 20 years. if it didn't win games than why would anyone play it? Erhnaggedon decks were winning the world championships before most magic players were born. trying playing against an oloro pillowfort deck with a felidar sovereign in play and ask them how they're going to win. i'm sure they've got it figured out.
@@edhdeckbuilding That might be true in a 1v1 scenario. But in a multiplayer setting this is far from what we see. Just have a look at most cEDH metas and you'll see that the only viable decks are either Teshar or Heliod, the first being a value engine and the second a combo enabler. Sure, both strategies rely on stax/tax to some extent but that's not what's winning their games. I'd completely agree with the idea of white being an excellent SUPPORT color. But it is not deep enough to make it a good color on its own. MonoW needs way more support in the future if it wants to compete on par with the other colors. We have been moving in the right direction with new cards that capitalize on the use of equipments, auras, graveyard and token generation for value/card advantage. Other cards that focus on parity such as archeomancer's map or keeper of the accord that are within the philosophy of the color pie are always welcome additions as well.
my question about stax was rhetorical. it was meant to make you think about your statement: "NONE of these strategies help further your game plan. Bringing the game to a halt is not the same as moving towards victory ". those strategies exist because they DO work and move you towards victory. stax IS the game plan. pillowfort IS the game plan. these strategies of worked in magic for a long time because people win games with them often. also winota hatebears is a very viable deck in cedh. and my zedruu stax deck fairs pretty well too.
Shots fired!!! Thank You!! I feel like a lot of us can breath easier now that you took that load off our chests.
i'm gonna take the hit for us all. i'm sure all the haters will come out and screech their opinions.
Fellow mono white player here. Thank you for making this video ❤
stay tuned for my color rankings video coming soon. i'm sure you'll love it.
It seems like people hate phyrexian decks. But have you tried making a toxic mites deck? I feel like an asshole 😂😂
This is the perfect video on White. I have been playing white since 2004. It is the most powerful color if played right. Lyra Dawnbringer is my favorite edh deck and I pack it with boardwipes and spot removal. It wins way more than it loses. Like you said focus on what white does well.
Board wipes aren’t always reliable card advantage, so that take is sketchy at best. If one player has 10 creatures another one two and the last one 0, cuz he plays an enchantment or spellslinger you boardwipe wont do shit because yes he lost 10 creatures, but it cost you a card and the others have the advantage now. also good luck drawing into it with almost no card draw. And while you can probably put 30 wipes into your deck, they’re situational cards that won’t win you the game, they just prevent you from losing it to creatures mostly.
Especially in the example he gave in the video. "I cast a board wipe and take out all those creatures!" Oh, the ones put in by genesis wave? So, 1 for 1, and now they have a full graveyard and still way more mana.
Hell he could have easily given an example of using mana dorks for ramp in that case, but didn't.
so my austere command or my cleansing nova allows me to advantage myself however i like. you're thinking too one-dimensionally. furthermore my hour of revelation or my planar cleansing will just hit it all. and why do i need to "draw into it"? i'll always have one at the ready because white has so many. you're answering your own questions here. also the "you're just preventing yourself form losing the game, not winning the game" is the worst magic argument i've ever heard. i'm not sure who's perpetuating that garbage. what does a counterspell do? does it win you the game? nope. it just prevents your opponents from doing so. removal, same thing. pretty hard for you to win the game if your opponent wins first right? every cedh deck is a combination of "i'm trying to win the game" and "i'm trying to stop my opponents from winning". if you can't stop your opponents from combing off in cedh, then your deck is useless. not dying should be you're number one priority in any commander game, unless you're comboing off or playing extreme aggro.
@@edhdeckbuilding if you have enough so that you’ll always have one, you’re gonna have a lot of cases where your whole hand consists of boardwipes, which are situational cards by design and you’ll find yourself unable to advance your gameplan. And your counterspell argument is basically my argument, yes counterspells stop enemies from winning, but unlike boardwipes they can stop your enemies from stopping you from winning. Also i wouldnt compare regular edh to cedh, which is a very weird and different format but in cedh boardwipes are basically non existent, because they don’t win you the game.
@@angell.4626 what type of commander are you playing? you use your counterspells to stop your opponents to stop you from winning? that sounds like cedh. most games i play people use their counterspells for craterhoof or expropriate or cyclonic rift, or a removal spell for their commander. it seriously sounds like you're just trying to make an argument that boardwipes just aren't very good. what situation is an hour of revelation not good? when there are zero non-land permanents on the board? counterspells are situational too you know. since they only work when a spell is on the stack. they do absolutely nothing if your opponent already has a threat on the table.
was i talking about boardwipes in cedh? nope. i was talking about counterspells and how they're used mostly for stopping your opponents from comboing off. furthermore boardwipes actually CAN stop your opponents from stopping you from winning. you're thinking too one-dimensionally. superfriends maybe? non-stop boardwipes kill your opponents creatures which allows you too move forward and win the game with your planeswalkers. or any deck that wins via combo or any non-combat damage is going to love boardwipes because YOUR OPPONENTS KILLING YOU WITH THEIR CREATURES STOPS YOU FROM WINNING! these are fundamentals of the game and i'm surprised i have to explain them to people.
I'M NOT DONE YET: "Board wipes aren’t always reliable card advantage"? okay well take that rhystic study out of your deck. not reliable card advantage at all since your opponents can just pay. while your at it chuck that necropotence since it's useless if you have very little life. saying that a card isn't good in certain situations is another ridiculous argument. what's it doing MOST OF THE TIME, is all the matters. and almost always, unless you have no idea what you're doing, boardwipes are card advantage.
@@edhdeckbuilding I play regular edh at a Relatively high but still budget friendly power level. Also you just put these words in my mouth, I never said that I personally use counterspells to stop my opponents from stopping me from winning, but even if I did it wouldn't make the argument less valid.
Furthermore I never ever said board wipes are useless or anything remotely close to that. But they're situational cards, that are great in certain situations but will do very little for you in others, so you don't always want one in your hand!
Also what do you want to tell me with that dumb rhystic study strawman argument, it does not prove your point it just makes you look butthurt because I'm not sharing your opinion.
that note at the end about how boardwipes are card advantage was really good! I've never thought about that before
I know this video is 3 years old, at the time of this comment, but part of "misconception", imo, is not what why mono white is weak in commander, but to me it's more about what green can't do
Following up on the above - while your assessment is good. But the professor's argument in his video assumed mono-white, but you're using multi-color cards in part of your argument. Imo, it doesn't seem fair
I love your channel and I agree that white isn’t bad. However, I disagree with so many of your semantics. Multi-colored cards shouldn’t count as “white” because you can’t play anguished unmaking in a boros deck. If we just look at mono colored cards for the purpose of comparison, white is good at denying resources, which draws hate, which gets you killed first in a multiplayer format. In 1v1, there is no worry about hate so resource denial is just as good as the strategies of the other colors. That’s why white is “bad” in commander. It’s the social aspect that makes it bad, not the mechanics of the format itself
does having 20 cards in hand draw hate? or having 20 lands in play? what's the difference?
@@edhdeckbuilding good point
@@edhdeckbuilding i think the difference is simply that 20 lands on the feild isnt going to make anyone want to stop playing with you nearly as fast as playing a pillowfort deck, honestly. I love white and its become my favorite color, but ive litterally had people scoop because they say that i was playing some form of recource denial deck, and i think thats really the issue: people play commander (usually) to just throw some cards down on the table rather than to win. They want to have arms races and "do their thing". i believe that because thats all i ever did with green or red or black and thats all anyone ever did against me. White is good at the ONE thing that is hated most in commander because it stops people from being able to have their arms races. And while it sucks, i can feel the frustration that comes with playing someone whos entire deck essentially filled with cards made specifically to keep you from doing anything. I dont think id want to waste 40 minutes of my time watching a dude tap my shit when i could be racing to the finish to nuke them before they nuke me. Personally, im glad white is getting more draw and ramp. I personally do not like that every other color has a way to gain access to their biggest cards so much faster than me, and my only responce to that is considered the most frustrating thing in the format. I feel that giving white the ability to cantrip as often as it can now is a good way to mitigate the frustration, or to make cards like tenuous truce or wedding ring where multiple people benefit from it, and where you are forced into trying to convince someone to not kill you yet if you even want to do it. It does a similar effect to pillowforts where no one wants to attack you, but makes games way less frustrating to play in.
If were gonna talk about what a color SHOULDNT DO, i feel like of all colors, white isnt the color to complain about. White isnt what makes atraxa so powerful, it just doesnt help that she benefits from having it. Green now has almost as many ways to get treasures as red and black do, and that FRUSTRATES me. Giving every color a little treasure just for a few cards wouldnt be such a bug deal, but green does it SO much now that the color that rejects technology the MOST now has the ability to ramp with artifacts too. Thats JUST taking away from red and black (and i suppose blue to a much lesser extent). Green is getting more and more removal cards, but i dont see that as nearly a problem as them just simply being abke to ramp in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. Like blue cards dont impulse draw, red doesnt get to take extra turns without then losing the game (obeka not included, were arentookign at individual cards), why the hell does green get to do this??
White isn’t the best removal, though they do have more options but the high end removal is rarely white.
Stax is a deck type that kinda ruins the format, it discourages interaction between players with makes games crawl. So it’s typically avoided.
Pillow fort is great but it’s not a win condition and most decks are designed to seek for that win condition. Maybe if there is more options to use the high toughness of creatures and or walls it would be a better tactic. ((Mind you there is and with the commander adding a draw engine makes that deck go ham)). Though in my option there needs to be more options for that tactic.
White is the best life gain color period. So good in fact you gotta relay on it or tokens if you want any solid kind of card draw. It’s why the few commanders that is top of the list has a draw engine of some sort or is life gain based.
White is a bad color by itself but splashed it’s pretty good. Say in white/black it supports black’s short coming with artifact and enchantment removal.
I’m going to be one of those who says white needs help. No doubt about that.
high end removal is not white? examples? and talking shit about pillowfort and stax seems silly since people having been using those strategies for decades and winning games with them. you think that writing a quick blurb about how pillowfort is bad undoes all the games people have won with it?
like i said in the video, you don't like white? don't play it. i think it's great and win games all the time with my mono-white decks. maybe simic is more your speed.
@@edhdeckbuilding I know I'm late to the party, but it's because I've been binging all your videos recently as I really enjoy them. This one though I really didn't, felt a lot of points were disingenuous and your responses to people who have criticisms have been super childish. I don't care if white is your favourite colour, it's also mine but you don't see me telling people they're dumb for not wanting to play stax.
@@Oakwin_mb I totally agree. Not only that, but he has been hiding any comments that criticize his points. I know this because one of my reply in this thread is no longer visible unless I sign in. I wouldn't be surprised if he started removing criticisms altogether.
This is an awesome video! I'm gonna send this to my play groups. They need an adjustment on the way they view white. They all hate white and I play a lot of it in my multicolor decks. I now have a deck for each mono color and I love each one of them cause it's what they do best. Very strong decks and I rarely loose with them.
Currently building an Elesh Norn infect deck because I love white and infect. Probably not going to be able to play it much, but I'm sure it's going to be my favorite deck.
More people need to build a mono white deck and play it, then they will understand and be more open to someone playing it in commander.
It's looked down on for the wrong reasons!
Thanks again man! Dig this video 🤟
A great take and analysis as usual EDH DECKBUILDING 😎👍.
I would love to see a video like this for the other 4 colors, you always bring either an interesting view or I end up learning about some new cards 😄
White also has really good reanimation abilities. My mono white avacyn deck ramps out fairly quickly with artifacts and keeps all threats away through constant wrath effects. Even if my Avacyn is exiled I can just reanimate my creatures that get destroyed from my own board wipes.
I can agree with you, white in magic is probably my favorite color. Considering it's usually looked down on it makes winning with mono-white decks all the sweeter. Michiko Konda was probably my favorite mono-white commander deck I have made with Elesh Norn being my second.
Great video. Almost at 10k subs!
I think instead of white just having good removal of all things , It needs engines that are designed to play around whites strengths. For example, blue recently got archmage emaratus, green has the great henge , black have phyrexian alter and red has fruious rise/ all other impulse draw. If white had some sinergistic engine cards, more people would be attracted to playing the strategy’s those engines supported
I have been watching for a while now (around when the top ten cards videos were getting popular.) And I cant stop binging on your vids. Such a breath of fresh air and a realistic view on things and this is no exception. Keep up the great videos, cant wait to see more!
thanks. you'll love the video tomorrow i'm sure.
@@edhdeckbuilding oh I cant wait! You really nailed it with this one, and I am very much inspired to brew with white again. I was thinking about Yasharn a lot recently and im going to go for it! I like punishing lands in unconventional ways so I will start there. And see if I can go for more tax than stax with him (I know the difference now so thanks for that too haha.)
me as a mono white / orhov ONLY player cant agree more with this video, white does everything good, or at least average. there are so many options for ramp, carddraw when you include lifegain / token creation, removal and you can even play mono white combo decks. White does not require more "staple / broken cards" it needs more reprints of the staples and more scetchy options for these cards. ( looking at for example kor cartographer, which is a nice ramp, but only good in mono white or orzhov ). in my oppinion the new "catch up cards"that make you ramp when people have more lands, or make tokens if you have less creatures are a great way of keeping white where it should be: removing high value stuff, slowly grinding out a game and go for the win. Keep up the good work man, recently started watching ur vids, quite hooked on em.
The lifegain thing is funny to me. Its true that the golgari commanders don't gain life and its kinda a problem. Dina kinda gets around it with aristocrats but even so, it would be good to have a way to gain life in the command zone. But then of the white commanders there are a bunch that gain life but there are enough good ways to gain life that you really want a payoff in the command zone. So each color gets the commander the other wishes it had.
Players have always seemed pretty respectful of my mono white deck . I've had it since edh began years before "commander"
I used to participate in 12 man EDH, and those games would last between 4 hours up to 2 full days. Memories!
I just built a mono white Voltron commander deck with Eight-And-A-Half-Tails. It’s focused on equipment and equipment cheaters (Hammer of Nazhan, Stonehewer Giant, etc.) then make him huge with other equipment (Strata Scythe and Blackblade Reforged), and then using his ability to make everything white and give him protection with his abilities and other enchantments like Circle of Protection: White. It’s actually really good at doing 10+ commander damage on turns 3-4, but it falls apart to non-targeted removal. Overall I’m pretty damn happy with its power level despite being mono-white.
Also, you earned a sub, really liking your videos. Really helping me out and I learned a crap load, especially with mono white. Im loving this color.
I feel like white is more of a don't knock it until you try it thing. I used to not like white for like, literally no reason until I built my Odric deck. What I thought was gonna be a one-and-done deck that I would disassemble the same night has quickly become my go-to fun casual deck, and dropping akroma, vision of ixidor to wipe out the table never gets old. Plus, just watching this video has made me realize just how influential white is to the game as a whole, I play Noyan Dar from time to time and have just realized that basically all of my removal as well as the majority of my boardwipes in that deck are indeed white. Just goes to show that white is probably just more underappreciated than it is underpowered.
Idk about this one... I'd rather have options than be forced to do what "white does best", and play things like stax, because then you won't have a playgroup to play with. Why do all the other colors have MULTIPLES of options whereas white generally has crappy versions of (X) type of spells (draw, ramp, etc.)?
I thought Professor had some great points regarding this specific topic, and morein with his train of thought. I think its important to note when Professor posted that video, a few of the recent cards highlighted in this video weren't even released yet. It's improving but we are not there yet.
And before any "WELL ACTUALLY.." COMMENTS, my first edh deck was a monowhite 8 tails, and I play white currently throughout a few decks like Edgar Markov. I ain't hating, I just expect more :)
@@Artharios77 What prof video is being referenced here?
th-cam.com/video/as1Kf_YCi9w/w-d-xo.html
EDH Deckbuilding is pretty spot on MOST things, and I love his takes. It's ok to disagree, and I see the merits of his points in this video.
If the things white does the best at are frowned upon in EDH, let's give white something else to excel at. It doesn't have to be OP. Give us options to open up what white has going for it.
so are we now turning the entire game of magic into commander? what you're talking about is what wotc has been doing of late. forget about what white has been doing for 30 years because it doesn't work good in one format. the legacy death and taxes player certainly doesn't mind that white doesn't ramp or draw well. should we completely change white as a color just because it doesn't fit well in one format? also, you don't need to be "forced" to do anything. just don't play white if you don't like it. simple as that.
I've always loved white and what it does. I never thought of the board wipes are card advantage aspect, that's such a good point. Great video as always Demo!
I (mostly) agree with you. I think the thing is how you define "best". The "best" removal is in white, for sure. That is defining "best" as efficient.
Anyway, recently found your channel, super cool stuff m8, keep it going!
I agree that colors need to maintain a uniqueness otherwise all colors will eventually be the same . I do think the “white is the worst color “ is a common misconception , I actually believe no color can claim that title right now , but I have no doubt that green is the best.
I believe an important problem people have with white lies in gameplay weaknesses. White having typically less resources, board and card advantage often come out of good timing and planning, as you explained with your example of board wipes. Where the other colours can waste some resources, white mages need to spend their resources wisely to pull ahead. There's a reason mono-white Death & Taxes is a fixture of eternal formats, which usually attract more experienced players.
Very nice to see some love for White! Great channel with some interesting thoughts. Found your channel few days ago with the "10 cards you should be putting in your commander decks" and I just ordered a bunch :D
thank you so much for your video because i play a lot of white based deck recently and i always make some changes to my decks because i dont win but it never changes the outcome. And I was thinking I should maybe focus more in what white does best instead of trying to mimic other colors in terms or value.
Wow that is one great argument video for white. I recently build a mono white angel lifegain deck and more often than not I’m the scariest player. It’s very consistent even though it has a relatively high average cmc. It’s also restrictive in its own unique way which makes deck building in mono colors (and white specific) a lot of fun.
This is a video I came across. Wow these are great examples. Count me in as a new fan. Love to see more content going forward
I just got into MTG and am building Blue White and yeah...some of those mono white cards that are super important to have are just TOO expensive since they haven't been reprinted...Teferi's Protection is a perfect example...like 10 dollars ? Ok maybe I could justify that, I've just bought some singles that are between 1 and 5 bucks but 30-50 bucks for one card? No idea why they can't reprint some of those if it is known that they are highly important cards
i can't argue with that. i always welcome more reprints.
Thats what i always gets me with the "White is good now, look at all the op new cards it got" arguments. Like yeah, i guess i can make a op white as long as i have unlimited budget or hate myself.
Or want others to hate you, HAHA, I feel like most of the ways I've seen white dominate a Commander match are by explicitly locking down the board state by saying "No, you can't do that now" or "You must pay the toll if you wish to do anything". I mostly just play "fair magic" with Azorius now where I amass tokens, give them all evasion with Harbin, Vanguard Aviator or a substitute for that effect of some kind and then get card draw value from blue cards and pillowfort a good bit from white cards. I ended up diving in SUPER HARD to Magic in the past 10 months and ended up making a deck that Archidekt claims is about $515 dollars, some of that is because I'm a Foils Hoe and love pretty cards but also because I caved and bought Esper Sentinel, Teferi's Protection...that sort of thing.@@DM-Oz
I feel as though the white card draw tends to force you into a specific deck and strategy. Im pretty sure white hate bears is one of the most effective strats in mono white. We just got the group hug sorcery which is kind of a dead card if youre 1v1 and we also just got that new legendary creature that cares about artifact creatures. weve got all of those instants and sorceries that do something and draw a card but I dont think theres really a commander that supports that strat unless you go feather. Armistice might be okay with the angel of destiny but thats not a commander and 5 mana is pretty steep. Mesa enchantress is for enchamenmt decks which can synergize with the pillow fort and stax strat. puresteel paladin puts you in equipment. there are others like sram but i guess what im getting at sis that the best card draw cards in white dont synergize with each other well imo.
EDIT: I just saw Mavinda Students Advocate. Might try that with all of the instants and sorceries that draw cards.
A lot of complaints are due to White not having many unique mechanics, and the strengths they have are quite limiting, opposed to other colors that give a plethora of choices that all have quite a lot of power. That being said, White definitely isn't weak, but it's more commander reliant to create a strong strategy. (i.e. Elesh Norn can seriously screw people up but it's only super strong once your commander hits the board in a lot of situations)
I agree with everything on this list. I built an Aurelia deck where I ran 13 boardwipes. In my mono white Golos Emeria deck, the plan is boardwipe a lot of stuff, recur amazing creatures like Norn and Serra Ascendant, and run mana sinks like Castle Ardenvail (or however you spell that) Adanto the First Fort, Dawn of Hope and Sacred Mesa. I use those because I don’t draw cards well so I have excess mana so I make a bunch of tokens and use cards like Mentor of the Meak, skull clamp, and Soul sister effects with Dawn of Hope or Well of Lost Dreams to turn them into cards. I was in a 1v1 against Korvold and because I had a sac outlet and sun titan that a Rule of Law held him back until a Mayhem Devil killed me because I Haden’s added the best lifegain cards like Gisela of the Broken Blade and Serra Ascendant to counteract the incremental pings.
I will continue to quote Commander Replay on the only real issue with white: It’s win conditions suck.
Norn is the best by far (if a 7 mana white creature that doesn’t draw cards sees play in CEDH its very strong) and the White Suns because it’s an instant. But then the quality tanks hard. All these “make X angels” cards are garbage because I have 5 or 6 of them and don’t even consider them for white and green TOKEN decks, the ideal place for an X spell that makes loads of tokens.
What white lacks vs other colors is adaptable play's like black blue and red all steal your stuff now, mono green goes out of control way to fast and is a highly adaptable color you can do all kinds of combo plays with 2-3 cards. Meanwhile mono white combos with 3-4 cards and most of them either high cost (which white has trouble Drawing or ramping into) and since the white cards are either over costed or only allow parody meaning your always a turn behind or several turns behind the other players at the table, in commander at least. What mono white in particular needs is cards that actually put them in the lead vs other players or cards with more combo potential/replacement effects IE Opposition agent which 100% should have been a white card not black card since black is way too power creeped of a color, mono black is creeping up on mono green in terms of pure card power
white is absolutely not the best at removal toxic deluge, meathook massacre, deadly rollick the best removal spells in the game (for commander) but thats what where talking about right?
Just built a black and white deck and it's awesome, really enjoy some of the white angel cards and who doesn't love zombies!? ( After watching your video on a life gaining build I made one with witherbloom, tweaked it a little and you no what it plays really well, a very capable deck. Thank you for sharing your knowledge most appreciated.)
Thankyou for the comment about card advantage and board wipe, too many people simply don't understand this.
If anything, it's bait, i will allow you to play all the things you want, as i can now put more of your deck into your GY or Exile.
Great video mate. You are right about this mentality people have about the colours. The game is so complicated that you have to try out for yourself some of the decks and strategies out there, untill you realise how busted they can become. A good deck is a good deck. It may not have the ability to produce 10 mana turn 5 but it may be able to handle everything that's happening with only 5 mana. What differs is how you approach the game and what makes a good player is the ability to understand, create and play different strategies and decks.
I have been binging your videos for a few days now and you are already one of my favourite creators for edh. I groan every single time when creators spout 'white bad' without even doing a little bit of research on scryfall or even edhrec for that matter. Every time I try to explain to people I play with how to play with white cards, I open more eyes because it really is simple. You just need to be focused on synergy. Try to use any card in your deck multiple times or make it flexible. There are fewer ridiculously busted cards in white than in green, but white can do almost anything really, except "drawing". Is anyone mentioning how white has almost just as much reanimation effects as black? For creatures and permanents of any type? Anyone mentioning the insane flicker and blink cards? Anyone mention the fact, that white is better at ramping than any other color except green?
Every creator trying to discuss white almost always instantly goes to the 'yeah mass land destruction is White's thing, but in commander it's not seen' argument trying to defend White without ever just looking at the damn cards and effects White has to offer.
In short, I really like your channel :D
much appreciated
Wow this video has made me go through a bunch of your other videos even before the 4minute mark ahahaha great content man! I'm subbing!
My first deck ever built for edh is a karametra goodstuff deck with lots of land-ramp and removal. One thing people don't seem to get how complimentary green and white as a combination can be. It is a powerhouse.
I love my Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant deck. Probably one of the most interesting deck styles I built and one I have spent the most time refining.
I think the problem is, is that they have pretty much smashed the colour pie with all the other colours but yet White seems to be the only one where the Colour pie matters.
Black dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts for example.
Love some Mono-White. God-Eternal Oketra is my Mono-White Commander. Had to learn how best to apply White in my play groups. Now it is my most consistent Deck. The key is to find your Deck’s niche and play to it.
LOVE LOVE LOVE this video!! Longtime white player here. I almost like that white is/has become so undervalued, nobody ever sees you coming!!!!
I know Im late to the party, to this video and magic in general. Just started playing 2 months ago. I just built a mono white phyrexian toxic/lifelink/token deck. Its way more OP I ever intended and nobody really wants to play against it now lol.
I feel like a commander deck would be doable with this, not sure how but working on it.
But from my short term experience, I just dont understand the hate against white. So far I think its the best. Between white and my black/green deck. Im personally impressed with how complex and how much variety for balance this game offers. This game was very well created. Looking forward to commander. Hopefully a mono white experience isnt bad like everyone says it is. I just cant see how. My deck is already OP as hell in standard. Its undefeated so far with all my friends. I play at work, and with 5 of my friends at home, so its gotten alot of experience so far and Im still doing more to improve it which is nuts.
Outside of artifacts, what colors have true ramp other than green. White has 1, search for a plains and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Most of other white ones require an opponent to control more lands than you. Also most of those the lands go to the hand, not the battlefield. So not ramp, but not missing land drops.
Black has a couple ways to get swamps to the hand but not to the battlefield.
Blue I didn't see anything for islands.
Red has 1 that goes to the battlefield, off a creature. But if that creature leaves, you have to sac a mountain.
So i would say that white is the 2nd best at ramping. You just have to play the ramp card before your land drop for the turn.
i agree, white is king of removal; in terms of monowhite decks, i've played, i never need to care about anything my opponents do outside of instant and sorceries because usually, as you've mentioned, we'd be easily running so many sweepers for every permeant type that the only real question is having the ability to cast them; usually at 3-5cmc. additionally, cataclsym is easily one of my favorite wipes; since i often play voltron and it usually closes the game for me. people sometimes forget that simply not being player 1 means your land tax, tithe and gift of the estates are active; and any of those cards instantly makes sure that a) you will always have land drops on curve period, b) you would also thin out the deck to draw more action as well.
I'm considering do pillowfort, Staxy Patron of The Kitsune. Do you think this is viable?
I’d agree that white is best at removing artifacts and enchantments, but I think black is way better at creature removal on a consistent, cheap basic. Also, yes white has a lot of good board wipes, but in my opinion, toxic deluge, cyclonic rift, and blastmous act are the 3 best board wipes in the format, making white just feel lukewarm. Yeah you can have have a lot of good wipes, but none of the best.
I definitely see your point though about white being good at things that people don’t like doing. That makes a lot of sense to me. I do think that printing good MONO white cards would be a good thing though. I’m not talking smothering tithe, I’m talking something at or just below the level of archaeomansers map at a 1 WW or preferably a WWW mana cost. That prevents a lot of multicolor decks from playing them while making mono white more viable. Yes white is good at life gain, but it’s a failing strategy oftentimes, so even the things white is good at generally are weaker strategies than the things green is good at (ramp and card draw)
top 5 black boardwipes? go...
I’m not arguing that black has a better top 5 board wipes, I’m arguing that it has a few and generally, that’s all you need. For example, in rakdos you have toxic deluge, blasphemous act, and damnation. In a control deck you probably want a couple more and that’s where white starts to pull ahead IMO, but in an aggressive or midrange deck, I don’t think you want more than a few which black + anything can find pretty easily
@@matthewdavis7869 so 2 black boarwipes? that doesn't seem great. also damnation is better then austere command or hallowed burial or cleansing nova. no chance imo. also what's cheaper than path to exile or swords to plowshares? if cheap is your concern than white does that as well.
I've been playing mono-white for years in my playgroup of friends now. And I've tuned multiple white decks (one especially) so that the others need to unpack their tier 2 cEDH decks at least to have a chance to beat it (of course it uses hate bears / stax, but no pillow fort and no land destruction).
The commander? Bruna, the Fading Light.
Yes, that Angel which costs 7 mana. Nobody takes it serious when they see it for the first time. But it is actually competitive. I need to explicitly tell people to unpack something strong or they'll get stomped and have no fun. Reanimating or recurring creatures and other permanents is really overwhelming if you play a board wipe and your side of the field doesn't even look different at the end of the turn.
When somebody new is introduced to the group, my friends say "he's cracked mono-white".
And concerning ramp: Way too often I'm the one with the most lands in play - even with a UG dedicated ramp deck at the table. It just can't function underneath the hate bears while I can keep ramping with Equipment (there's 3 now) and other effects. There has been so much ramp printed in mono white these last few years, you don't even need to play all of it anymore.
You think this is bogus? Build this deck and try it at home:
www.moxfield.com/decks/R91uUPj-c0-XANNrWLdH3A
If they give white card draw and ramp it will just play like all the other colors, what is the point of that?
Good video liked it a lot! Im inspired to try and make a Thalia deck happen. Or maybe go red too and have Archangel avacyn. I personally like the risk/reward type style of red. Just dont like the aggro archetype in general.
Amazing video, nailed everything. Well done 👍🏼
Great Video! You should make a series of this the other colors!
Auras is quite white if you think of the cards that reduces cist of them and payoffs. I'm building a Sram or lightpaw deck at the moment and there is quite some cards now that supports it in white. Also with the white defiler you can reduce the cost of auras to phyrexian life mana. Going to try next fnm I can go to.
You bring up a great point that I agree with and had also considered before. White is never allowrd to play to its strengths because people get mad when you do. Hatebears? Stax? Great White strategies. Land destruction? Slightly shared between White and Red, but I mean, White could do it! As for your point about card advantage, I'm torn, because, yeah, getting rid of a ton of permanents with one spell is card advantage, but card draw is essential in the game. Denying that to white is definitely bringing the color down, which is why I want to see what other options EOTC comes up with to give card draw to white.
Brewed a Patron deck based off of yours and oh my, the card draw is amazing off of all of the life gain effects in the deck.
As a fellow white mage, I mostly agree with you. The "ramp" complaint has blown out of proportions. For card draw, though, I believe white should be better at drawing in its spheres of expertise. I really like the design of the new Mangara, for example.
Speak the truth EDH deckbuilding man! let not the words of the masses smother your words, for they are the words of wisdom!!
Can you do similar videos with the other colors ??
Well said, white is an underrated color. Board wipes and single target for 1 mana is super hard to beat. I personally prefer black mostly because I abuse the sacrifice mechanic and there are some amazing low cmc single target cards including force of despair which is only like 1-2$ currently.
Is it better than white removal? It's hard to say and may be up to personal preference, but I love sacrifice because it bypasses hexproof and indestructible! That's hard to beat in my book. White does hit permanents which is a huge advantage.
Currently building an aristocrats deck with sacrifice and reanimate effects with Tevesh and Keskit. Can't wait to see people look at my partner commanders and ask why am I playing two black commanders and not multiple colors. That will be half the fun.
Edit: after double checking force of despair I realized it hits multiple creatures that enter on the same turn. That's some spice.
Hello I use to have white deck and I’m thinking of playing magic cards again any recommendations for white deck build
Great info vid. I feel like white is great as well, how ever I feel it is at its best as a support role for any color. I have yet to make a EDH mono white, not sure what to make cause I like themes. I have made a soldier white removal Pauper deck and it can fair against any style of deck.
THANK YOU! im showing my playgroup this video =-)
Finally someone who gets it!