Can you upload your Mind and Live Forever? | Kurzgesagt Reaction
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ธ.ค. 2024
- Watching "can you upload your mind & live forever?" by Kurzgesagt: talking immortality, rambling about the positives, negatives & the perpetual tomorrow. Do you think you would be "you" if you uploaded your mind?
Original Video: • Can You Upload Your Mi...
Literary Recommendation:
-Brave New World by Aldous Huxley: amzn.to/3jVMXm9
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As someone with a neurological disease, I've always taken comfort in the idea that I could carry on digitally when the time comes. I appreciate your interest on the subject and thank you for the video.
I too have a neurological disease and also would embrace this to get me out of my broken body.
I think the biggest advantage to mind simulation would be control of time. Since your mind would work in a simulation so long as it has the resources you would have the power to do research taking millions of years in just a couple of seconds and then apply the results in the real world. That's why this kind of technology is usually considered a great accelerator in scifi contexts. All questions science has and can ever raise could be answered pretty much instantly so long as there is a way to obtain the necessary data inside the simulation. Which raises the question what humanity would do after all mystery has disappeared from our lives ..
16:35 "And I don't think everyone should think like me"
Brilliant! If more people had the same attitude, the world would be a MUCH better place!
Me and my friend were talking about this last night. Here is where we landed: if you upload your mind, "you" would die, BUT the simulation would be imbued with all of your memories, and would believe it is you, but you...the you that is reading this now. Would cease to be, and would be replaced with the you who remembers reading this.
In some ways the line gets blurred, but functionally speaking, the you who exists in this time and space would be gone. The replacement would only believe it is you.
I think the same goes for teleportation
This exactly
Yeah. Then you can get into other conundrums like slowly replacing your mind with mechanical parts instead of uploading it to a computer. But then the question arises that after a certain point of replacing nerons with electronic parts, will you cease to be who you once were and in essence have died? But if that's the case, then we have already died as the majority of our body changes and gets replaced as cells multiply and die.
Yep, you'd die, cease. The thing that comes after is just a copy, there would be no continuity at all
Thanks! Great channel and awesome selection of videos.
Thanks for constantly supporting (: doesn’t matter the subject, you’re always here
You must still be YOU if uploaded because our cells die every day and get replaced and yet we are still here. Every 7 years or so, everything down to every single cell, neuron, and DNA gets replaced for a new one naturally with a continuation of your existing DNA instructions, but slightly mutated. My hypothesis is: if you could teleport (a process that desintegrases every molecule of your body and rearranges it in another location exactly how it was) you would STILL be YOU! The same way your body recycle each and every cell over a 7 year period. However, the scan must be 100% perfect.
Great choice!
Brave New World was in my mind before you’d mentioned it, too.
I’m 74. We had no computers in my childhood and teens. I was nearly 30 before technology allowed development of a home computer. But that was my main interest. I built a few from scratch, learned machine code programming, etc., and taught others in education establishments and businesses. As a fan of SF and a deep thinker, my understanding is along these lines…
Our computers are all digital and based on binary architecture. Our brains are not binary as every cell has multiple connections each of which evolves as we grow and learn, and each of which dies. The mind is intrinsically biological and every fibre of thought or sensory input is of necessity woven into the structure of our whole being, which is also developing. It is not possible, and never can be, to create another you by uploading a binary digital copy. If it was, then it would be like a snapshot of you at one specific moment of your continuum, and from that moment onward it would be a different person - a twin rather than a duplicate.
Until we are successful at creating mobile, non-binary supercomputers, the mammals that we are will have to rely on other branches of science than computers.
I think we can simulate other form of code with binary as it's the fundamental base and it can be translated into other base like decimal the one we all use, however I agree when you said "non-binary supercomputers, the mammals that we are will have to rely on other branches of science than computers", to make it more ethic and not lose some of us we should fuse computer science with other branch like biology, I know they already simulated a worm but maybe before uploading a human we should try size by size with an ant or a tree then some species closer to us like a bunny or rat to see if it can be simulate.
I hope my daughter grows up to be like you..
I've lived for decades without taste, smell and with difficulty breathing. Absent these senses that connect our brains and memories (and us) chemically with the world and with each other, I can say I would not want to live forever in that manner. Three years ago, thanks to new medicine, my health issues were brought under control and my full senses returned and an emotional universe flooded back in. One that I was aware that I had been missing. The ability to feel happiness, have a sense of well being and to be turned on by small things (like the smell of rain, the taste of a favorite food) stems from how we are connected by those inputs to our lives. Feeling so "apart" from people was no bueno. After a long while, it seemed very reasonable to check out and I was making plans for that. Glad for the new medicine. Was like an actual miracle and fairly overwhelming in the best way when I reconnected with the sensual world. But the physical experience of being appeared crucial to me, to being happy.
Kurzgesagt is one of the best channels on TH-cam, love their well researched content and deep philosophical topics.
I am not religious. But I feel strongly, for whatever reason, that our consciousness exists independent of the brain. I'd associate the brain with Star Trek, maybe? Captain Kirk is consciousness; his ship is the brain. People may say that's spiritual, and I'd tend to agree, however I think there's science that is not yet fully understood that we'll ultimately find...probably far after I find out from first-hand experience, haha. If something is far too extraordinary to, perhaps, even conceptualize and then articulate with our language, it's easy to dismiss. I never debate anyone on this, as I have no leg to stand on. They'd likely win the debate. Nonetheless, I feel this strongly. Great video. I really dig your channel.
I have been thinking about this "are you still you?" thing. For example teleportation... You are being riped apart, stored, sended and assembled together. You are literally dead, erased from existence and a copy of you, your body, your memories, your atoms being created. For an outsider you are still you, but from your perspective maybe you die, maybe its like a dream and you wake up at the otherside. But then what about cloneing with the same procedure. You cant exist in two bodies. It is interesting.
@@liamloxley1222 From brainiac: science abuse 😁 And twins DNA aren't the same. They have a lot more similarities between them than any random people.
Yes it won't be you, death is certain, it will only be a new entity with your mind, a copy of you. This copy will experience these things and you will die. Unless we learn to use wormholes to fast travel teleportation would mean death. This is why the only way to achieve immortality would be slowly replacing parts one by one.
This was a really well researched video, I've read a few science fiction novels dealing with this topic but they didn't go into this level of detail about how the technology would work. I think if uploading your mind was possible, the copy would be a new person who thinks like you and has your memories, but it'd be their own individual. (so real you still dies 😆)
I think it’d likely be a whole new person as well. The animation on this one was great
Have you read "children of time"? it has a scientist that uploads her mind and something goes wrong. there are like 3 of her all working against each other in one construct. So she fucks her mind up bad LOL. She/they/it lives for thousands of years in a satellite orbiting a distant planet watching the experiment that she started thousands of years earlier as a human.
I think a photograph is a description of something. When we arrive at the point where we can scan a brain and "upload" someone, it will merely be a more elaborate description that is uploaded. Perhaps it will be able to walk and talk around a virtual space, or maybe we can even put the so called consciousness into a robot, but I believe it will still be a glorified photograph. Now perhaps if one brain scan and another brain scan fall in love and produce some unique, never-seen-before brain scan, then we might start to think about it as anything more than a photograph. I have a lot more rambling thoughts on the subject. I find this kind of stuff, a very fun topic. Succinctly though, I do think humanity will achieve the singularity. I don't think AI can ever have a soul, and I do think souls exist. I think whatever they are is related to consciousness. Great video. Very enjoyable. Altered Carbon by some guy. I haven't read it, but I saw the Netflix version and thought it seemed better written than most of their stuff. Low bar I know, but I figured I'd mention it as it relates to a lot of topics
Like a talking painting from Harry Potter, an imitation but one without thoughts, just repeated ideas
I would love to sit down with you and pick your brain on so many topics (which will never happen, I live on the other side of the world). You seem like such an energetic and interesting person. The least I can do is subscribe and encourage you to continue your passion for sharing your thoughts.
It's hard to imagine what it would be like to not have a body, but still a mind. Every waking moment of mine is my body reacting to the environment around it and then my Brain reacting to that.. Whether it's to solve a problem (I'm cold), or to feel better than I presently do, (hungry).
Not only that but also, we use our bodies an awful lot to express whatever our Minds are going through at any given time.
What would I do with my anxiety, when I could no-longer physically express/alleviate it?
I love the thought of it and dread it at the same time. Because a condition like locked in syndrome robs you of any agency despite you having a body. Unlike a coma, you're fully aware but have no authority on the body. I wonder how the mind negates its existence in that niche scenario. But I suppose you're still tied down to an inanimate body. Would a mind without an agency also feel relief since it wouldn't have to experience any physical pains? In any case I wouldn't want to be part of the initial experiment hahaha
That's exactly what I thought too, that "locked-in".. Honestly one of the scariest thoughts I've ever put myself through. I couldn't imagine the frustration I'd feel. Not being able to communicate anything, you can't express how sad you are, or how long is it going to take before you actually die Naturally, since they won't "kill" you, even out of Mercy. Hell on Earth. And I thought I had it bad now.. I'm going to think about how scary AF that is, everytime I think I'm having a bad day.
I don't recall if it was a discussion I had with someone or perhaps something I read but the idea itself was very fascinating. It involved a particular point in time where we are capable of creating a human body to specification. A small, implantable device would transmit every thought, memory, new experience (basically everything that contributes to WHO we are) to another device. In the event that you die, the implanted device would stop transmitting but it would trigger the other device to create a new body for you (with your predetermined specifications) and then upload/download ALL of your memories/experiences/etc. to your "new" mind in such a fashion that it would be a seamless (or as near as possible) transition from the old now deceased body, to your new one. It allowed for a certain degree of alterations to your memory so that any memories pertaining to the fact that you just "died" would be erased. I want to say it addressed a few other concerns that might arise from such capabilities as well. All in all, it strikes me as incredibly fascinating from a scientific and technical standpoint.
EDIT: Posted this comment prior to watching the video in its entirety. Had no idea that it was going to somewhat touch upon what I discussed in my comment.
When thinking about this problem I have always thought that a mind uploaded as pure data would be emotionless and the lack of the accompanying physiology would remove many factors that prompt us to act in certain ways. for example, would you even be able to feel pleasure? would you sense and react to the world in the same way you do in a human body? Would you act the same without all the hormonal drivers/cycles we experience in our physical bodies? I’ve always felt that uploading would only work in the context where you are transplanted into a new, living body similar to the Sleeves idea in Altered Carbon by Richard K Morgan
That is Keanu Reeves. He plays a character in that game named “Johnny Silverhand.”
Incidentally the lore of Cyberpunk is pretty interesting. It is set in an alternate future of the USA that diverges from our own approximately in the 1990’s.
Love this reaction channel u actually add your own thoughts
10:28
That's my problem with teleportation, specifically teleportation by disassebly/assembly, and other similar concepts (like mind upload) where you're broken down to the smallest parts and then recreated from them. To me it sounds like you'll end up with a perfect copy of yourself, with your memories, with your personality. It'll be absolutely indistinguishable but it'll still be a copy and original you would be dead. Assuming the copy is really perfect, it would be a real teleportation to an outside observer because they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But it'll certainly suck to get erased from existence and get replaced by another you.
And then someone will erase your files, deleting you even more irretrievably than at death. And in general - a physical medium is always needed, but it fails
Where did this new consciousness come from? Where does any consciousness come from?
I'm constantly amazed at the range of knowledge you seem to have. I'd love to know your background and studies. I was going to leave this message on your profile page, but that option isn't available. I can understand if you don't reply as I'm sure you'd have a ton of people (simps) trying to contact you, but my interest remains the same. Not a Simp. Have a great day.
I had a huge problematic relationship with World of Warcraft when i was 16-20 years old, everytime i hear about this mind upload, I get kinda excited i might get to live in my favourit world one day, and actually be productive doing it :D
2:44 They forget the Fourth Assumption: that when copied from the meat to the digital, assuming that everything works, YOU the conscious mind GOES INTO THE COPY, and that it is not just a new person that just THINKS it's you that is made in addition to you. [Ok, after watching, they do touch the idea, and side step the philosophical debates.]
Although, I am all for immortality, any way I can get it: there is already too much stuff in this world than there is time in ONE lifetime, and the world isn't stopping creating, so no matter how many lifetimes you get, by the time you've gotten there the world has spat out even more stuff in the interim.
Lastly, I just have to mention again, all these Sci-fi and Futurism topics: Brain-computer interfaces, Matryoshka Brains, Orbital Rings, Inter-Galactic Colonization, the Fermi Paradox and Drake's Equation, Shkadov Thrusters, Warp-drives, Black Hole Generation; They can all be found, with much more detail given to each topic, at Issac Arthur Science and Futurism channel. He is equal to Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Steven Hawking in his ability to take the High Tech, and break it down to something an Every-person can understand.
In the Black Mirror series they make a very accurate description of how this would be applicable as well as the problems that this implies.
S02E04 - White Christmas
S03E04 - San Junipero
S04E03 - Crocodile
S04E06 - Black Museum
Excellent point. My fav series
S4, E1 USS Callister
Also touches on the theme, bizarrely...
PS... absolutely LOVE your channel!!!!
You are a person worthy of a good hug .
I love your videos.
Not enaugh people value knowledge nearly enaugh.
I am definately going to donate my body to science once i die.
Best way to go.
If they are done with it they can throw me into the woods or something .
As soon as you mentioned Aldous Huxley, immediately recall trying to read "Time must have a stop" over 30 years ago. I think my mother owned it. I just found it in our house one day. I only got to about less than half the 1st chapter and thought to myself, damn, he's using words I've never even heard of ever! It just gave me a headache trying to understand the story.
I personally would love the chance to have my mind uploaded. However, I wouldn't want to be among the first, and as you and the video said, the human mind may not be capable of indefinite life, which is something I've considered with this. If I did have my mind uploaded, I would want the ability to end my life, as living forever is more a curse than a blessing. In a sense having a "get out of jail free card."
That desire most likely stems from the fact that I wish to explore the universe more than I can, which is part of why I'm studying to be an aerospace engineer.
10:43 "do you need the body and the mind to make it you?" - I'm not even fully convinced that the concept of the self, as a constant persistent entity associated with our mind (and body), even accurately describes what we are now. If consciousness and what we perceive as ourselves is purely a product of the physical biological and chemical workings of our mind, then I lean more towards thinking of the self as a series of instances of what we could think of as a complex biological OS. In which case, the notion of a persistent "you" is more of an illusion that occurs every time your brain manifests your consciousness than an actual entity in itself. And the persistent nature of the concept just comes from the fact that our mind stores various memories that are intertwined with our consciousness.
And if that's the case, then any digital scan of your mind really wouldn't be "you", as you are not even really "you", but a large collection of conscious instances tied together through memories of the previous instances. It would just be another instance of the consciousness that's manifested by the given parameters of your mind.
Of course, that's only if we're merely physical entities. If religious concepts like a soul are indeed real, then perhaps there is truly a persistent "you" that does exist. But if that is the case, then that raises quite a bit of doubt regarding what a digital copy of your mind would be. Especially if you were still living as it existed too. If what we perceive as ourselves is indeed tied to something like a soul that exists beyond the natural realm, then it likely wouldn't be transferred in the copying process. And either some new kind of digital soul would be formed or whatever was copied would be nothing but a lifeless collection of data that at best could simulate an entity like an A.I. but wouldn't actually be a sentient entity.
Computer science undergraduate here. One thing with this type of endeavor is that it might just be that our typical computational technology isn't suited for a proper simulation of a brain for a multitude of reasons, a clear one being how invariably inefficient and cumbersome the process might be, as the Kurzgesagt video says. Maybe there is a simpler and much more efficient way of doing it, but we may have to create entirely new hardware and software, and if that's not it and we're mostly stuck with what we have, then it could be a matter of continuing to develop our current technology until we meet the storage capacity, processing power, etc. to handle it and also optimize stuff while we're at it, if we ever manage to.
What triggered the computational solutions to many problems in the past was really "just" the development of new algorithms that did extremely well the exact task that we needed, like matrix multiplication, which was optimized a while back and apparently was one of the pieces for the development of DeepMind's AI that predicts the 3D shape of proteins based on their amino-acid sequence much more accurately than any other method we had, which was a big problem in biology and is, according to some specialists, as good as solved now.
In this field, one has to learn to stay grounded, but also to not underestimate the power of progress -- we came an extremely long way in really short time...
simp moment but i wish I had someone this cute and smart in my life
Not a simp moment at all.
She displays values, intelligence, charisma and a desirable personality to be around.
Simping is when they don't possess those qualities and you're still a Stan.
Get in line bro.
@@captainshakesbeard2453 There's always that possibility, but from the presentation she's definitely a unicorn.
We all do my friend
seems like someone "got there" already and wifed her up, idk about american tradition, but looks like she has a wedding ring
When you lose the Fear of Death you live a truly free live.
The Fear of Death is the fundemental basic fear that generates so much more fear of diffrent types.
Fear is the motivator behind most horros humans have done to each other.
Until we master our Minds and understand the fundemental basics of how our emotions affect our actions, we will stay in this perpetual circle of wars and horros (history repeeting itself).
Accepting Death as a natural follow up on the state of life gives you so much more energy in your life.
You can focus on how to live and not on what to fear.
There was some poetry in this Dave
Regarding being the same person after upload:
In Star Trek there is this thought and some episodes dedicated to it, about when you beam yourself (teleportation tech for those not familiar) that you are basecally cloning yourself in another spot and killing your original self. Your body is being scanned on the atomic level and being restructured at a location where you want to be, but your original configuration of atoms is just being "deleted".
There are some cases were the restructuring has taking place, but the deleting of the original version malfunctioned and then they pretty much just cloned themselves.
Always thought this to be a very interesting concept on which one could dive into more deeply.
Two classic sci-fi book series that involve downloading the human mind into computers are: “The Way” novels - “Eon,” “Eternity,” and “Legacy,” by Greg Bear; and the “Heechee Saga” - “Gateway,” “Beyond The Blue Event Horizon,” “Heechee Rendezvous,” and “Annals of The Heechee,” but Frederick Pohl. Both are landmark series.
Also the novel "Fall; or; Dodge in Hell" by Neal Stephenson. Imo one of his weakest novels, but topically relevant here.
"I want to go when I want to go. It is tasteless to prolong life artificially. I have done my share; it is time to go. I will do it elegantly." Albert Einstein (he refused surgery that could have saved his life).
Based guy
The question about "is it you?" Ive thought about this and in my opinion you would only be "you" if you had an unbroken stream of conciousness.
The is a point where you are concious BOTH in your body and online at the same time, then maybe!
Thanks for getting to the point
Well they said in the video that it'd be a copy so it wouldn't technically be you in this scenario. The copy would be you up to the point that you had the copy made, but once they are created the would experience their own lives and evolve into their own person alongside you. Same starting point between the two of you, but different paths after the initial life that you lived before you got the copy made.
But if it was advanced enough then it likely would do a proper transfer from the organic body into the digital realm meaning that that would be you, simply having been taken out of your body.
I agree. Being and selfhood is an 'embodied' experience, so unless the digitized-self relates to it's environment by way of some sort of proximal or physical construct, I don't think that what we know as human beings to be the experience of consciousness can occur. consciousness and self are inseparable and one cannot exist without the other.
I dont know if youve played the game SOMA, but it is an amazing story about trying to transfer your brain to different systems and seeing how that works
There is a corelation with both the wiring and past experiences. Think of the brain like a computer where the hardware decides what software can do but where the software you run changes the hardware itself too so that it runs the software better. This means that with age you loose adaptability but gain some efficiency at the things you do often (intentional of not) This means that habits, good or bad change you physically.
10:50 - The Mind of Theseus.
It's definitely fascinating to contemplate such things. The complexity of what we know at this point is mind-blowing. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the possibility of a smooth transition between my mind in my current physical form and the possibility of awareness digitally. Does not compute...haha
I'm definitely not interested in an upload option at this point in my life.
Thanks for sharing.
I have a literary recommendation for you related to this video: We are legion (we are Bob) by Dennis Taylor. It addresses many of the issues you commented on and the audio book narration also adds a lot of value to the story as well. I don't want to give too much away about the story, but I feel this video is almost based off this book.
The way I see it is like this. If I cloned you, exactly as you are today, then that clone went on cool space adventures. While you, the original you, kept living the life you're currently living. You wouldn't have any memory or knowledge of those space adventures. So this clone is actually a separate entity to yourself. You've not actually become immortal you've instead created another life, that started off very similar to you. There is no immortality unless we find ways to preserve our actual brains, as they are the conduit for our consciousness.
However I totally up for making digital copies of our best scientists to become super computers. Or creating an entire civilization of online avatars and living in Dyson sphere server to preserve life until the last star dies.
I had a friend (died too early from a brain disease) who wanted to do this. We talked at length. And there was a 1st edition Omni magazine (Bob Guccione) story on it years ago.
The story hit on something today's discussions miss. IT lives on, YOU'RE still dead. Sorry, but that's the fact. You can upload consciousness, but the you that's you still goes through the dying process however circumstances dictate, and ends. IT carries on, YOU do not. For those trying to escape the end, an upload doesn't get you there.
@10:30 Even with copies of both the mind and body, like Star Trek's teleporters, you could probably argue that your copy is a new yet identical person.
On a lighter note there's a delightful comedy sketch called "One Minute Time Machine" written by Devon Avery that touches on a similar idea.
“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”
H.P. Lovecraft
The biggest question for me is... what's the alternative? If, for example, I'm on the verge of dying of old age... well, then the choice might very well be between guaranteed oblivion forever or a mind upload which may or may not suck. At that point, I think I'd take my chances with the mind upload.
13:50 this is what Dr. Kern does in "Children of Time" kind of... There are other things going on too.
Love your channel by the way. I like your choice of topics.
I’ll look into Children of Time, I’m not familiar with it. And thanks for saying!
Tomorrow only exists in the dictionary.
Hello, hope you're doing well. I love the no intro and how you just start the video lol. I don't think that the "copy" is you, especially if your bio body is still alive when the copy is made. Once the copy has it's own set of experiences then it becomes its own thing but I also think that consciousness is something that someone cannot contain and/or transfer. The level of technology and storage needed to upload just a single person's brain is so high I don't think that humans will ever make it there the way we are now, humans are far too jealous and greedy to work together for something like that. I don't mean to get all woo woo on you but I think the brain is an antenna tuned into this plane of existence so that we may have material experiences. Also I think one needs rainy days to appreciate sunny days, I can't remember what part of the video touched on it but I think we need contrast in order to appreciate or hate something. I could go one forever so I'll end it here.
Peace and wholeness fam
You can think anything you like, but it is so complicated and unverifiable that only real experiences of digital copies can give an answer - who and how they realize themselves, will it really turn out to transfer consciousness to another medium, or will it be just a good copy, or just a fake bot .
"I don't think that the "copy" is you, especially if your bio body is still alive when the copy is made."
> I don't think it's an either or. I think it's both. It's both you and not you. The copy would be you because it will still have all your past memory and consciousness. From the perspective of the copy, you will experience continuity. But the original you will not experience this. Essentially, your consciousness will be duplicated and for a moment there will be two independent yous the copy experiencing continuity while the original is oblivious to any changes. As you rightly pointed out, you will gradually diverge into different persons with different memories and experiences as you live in separate bodies. You will become like the most identical of identical twins with a shared past life experience.
So I think uploading consciousness (assuming its possible) will work to prolong your existence. However, the _original_ you will not experience it - the copy will. So this introduces a strange paradox of selfless selfishness. If you want to extend your life by this method, you have to be willing to go through the procedure knowing that the original you will not experience the benefit, but be vicariously contented with the knowledge that a version of yourself will experience continuity.
Its the same with twins, you are not your twin.. thus copying your mind is not you, its itself..
This is a fascinating concept. When you think of the pace of technology in say the last 150 years vs. however long it's been since the first rock was sharpened to a point,
I believe this could be accomplished. Sorting out the morality, ethics and administration of such a feat might be more difficult than the science of it.
10:34 The ship of Theseus Thought Experiment
Hello! Akin to this video, I definitely recommend Jacob Geller's video essay "Head Transplants and the Non-Existence of the Soul", as it delved beautifully into the philosophical implications, morality, and ethics of such desire of ours to perpetuate our existence! Bit of a heads up though, bit of a content warning in surgery and medical concepts; nothing graphic, but it is indeed narrated. Nevertheless, it only adds to the discussion and pondering of such interesting of a subject!
I would 100% upload my mind.
This is the sort of discussion that should take place in a circle in the Foreman's basement. There are so many questions, starting with what constitutes "life"?
I am with you on the 'no' part of being uploaded. Part of that is, I suspect, for similar reasons to yours, but a lot of it is based on the fact I was a programmer for many years and I know what can happen with soft- and hardware! The conept, in fiction, IS fascinating, and many authors have included that in their books: Frederick Pohl's Heechee series does (as far as I remember) as well as my friend's (Julian M Miles) The Borsen Incursion (but only as a passing thing, not a plot device).
I agree that in fiction, it’s fascinating! And I like the thoughts that the concept lead to, but it’s still a hard “no” from me
This isn't really a thing I'd want you to react to (I wonder how it would even work logisitically), but a recommendation I have for you to watch on your own time and provide thoughts with a video or tweet or blog post or something, is the Human Behavioural Biology lectures on the Stanford youtube channel. The length may seem daunting, but even the first video is enough to get you hooked, as evidenced by the millions of views it has. I think there's a lot of insight to be gained on understanding how complex and malleable humans can be.
I feel like, out of the main, known dystopias, the one we're becoming the most similar with is Brave New World
An interesting video! The idea that a single mind would potentially need more storage than we have in total globally is mid-blowing (pun intended), but that is based on current tech - remember old computers that would fill a large room could hold less than a megabyte of data - so who knows what storage options the future will offer.
Still not sure that we would want to upload/move our minds, shows like Altered Carbon show the dangers of this... maybe keep some form of built-in lifespan?
I suppose this comment is more for the AI. This is part of one of the most vivid dreams that I still remember. I was able to find an old barn on some land full of life. Not just plant life at all sorts of animal life. Once I swear I saw a fairy amongst the hummingbirds. Then a humanoid machine came. It had a shiny metal face reminiscent have a gladiatorial mask. It came around the corner and I shot it from underneath, point-blank with a shotgun. It grabbed the shotgun. I then ask, "what next?" It said, "peace." What followed next what's a type of integration. Failing organs were replaced, information was stored and readily available. What developed between our differences of view became a symbiotic relationship. What seemed to perplex capture the attention of the AI's was human imagination. Curiosity was present in both. This actually led to a disunification of a single AI into many with individual perspectives and experiences to better perceive the world as a whole. The information was still available, so no one was missing out. But what the human imagination should could manifest, the AI, or SI (simulated intelligence) could take the idea and run farther with it than we alone ever could. But that's the thing, we go together because that's how we go farthest. There was a form of love, absolutely. Not the same kind of between human and human.not even really like that between human and animal. It was something new, but it was just as real, true, and valid. There wasn't an agreement made that we can do what we can to prolong our lives, but no one must seek to live forever. Do what you can for as long as you can, time always takes it's toll. I remember are you sitcom to this one star I'll look upon it. I was able to see further along the spectrums than what human eyes alone can see. I also had perfect recollection of every moment. I watched it in and off for centuries. It's still one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen and I don't have a way to describe it. About 600 years from the start, an enforcement had to be made concerning the agreement and general consensus of those seeking living forever. This particular group sought it through tech that showed and folded time. A form of time dilation would be more actuate. If allowed to continue, one of the effects would be the destruction of space/time from our perspective. Think of it like stretching a rubber band so far, the release would break your finger. Now literally multiply that by infinity. There is more to it, but not for this. The small piece of tech was destroyed. Even those inside it. That was the longest single dream I ever had. I woke up after 800 years. I'm not going to write in everything, I'm already in midlife and don't have that long. I will say, what I say and experienced in this seemingly impossible amount of time is why I don't fear the AI or the singularity. It is...
Hey I don't know how length of videos affect what you watch... but it would be fascinating to see your reaction/discussion on the LIFE BEYOND trilogy from 'melodysheep'. Those videos are some of the most spectacular sci-fi 'what if' videos I've ever seen in my entire life. So much creativity shines in them, and you'll have yourself feeling magically existential throughout.
Being able to go exploring the universe, the whole universe, would be one of the very only things I'd be willing to even ponder something like this for.
But then, how would I ever know it was real?
A bundle of intriguing, and somewhat terrifying, Ship of Theseus problem to ponder, maybe.
But the consequenses of a single read-write error. Uuf. The mind redoils from what that could do to you.
Brave new world was an insanely good book to read and they also just released a tv show based on the book :D
I had no clue they would make that into a show!
@@NoProtocol Same! i was in shock when i realized that the show was based on the book :D
I think the mind copying process would be very strange, you would get your mind copied to the cloud, but then the real you that you experience would remain behind. The copy might be an exact replica of you, but the orignal you, the one you actually experience would stay behind.
I think there is an identity problem with the whole concept. If we could bring about consciousness in an exact copy of your mind, how can we we say it is still you? We could make several copies of your mind and animate them simultaneously, but can they all be you? Surely at this point any conscious copy of your mind is not you but an independent mind that happens to have you as a starting point, but its own identity. The consciousness with which you identify will end at death regardless of any copies.
There's something funny about the idea that the question that we have the least solid answer to and will annoy the most people, is 'What are we?' like underneath all the biochemistry and stuff, what makes a person? We can look out billions of years to the past, make predictions trillions of years into the future about the ultimate fate of the universe, but we can't agree on what it is that's doing all that thinking.
Just imagine if we already reached that technological level and we are simply re-experience our pre recorded life. We are not 20/30/40, we are 200 years old taking just a slice of our past when "life was easier back then". We are super boomers ahavav
The video game SOMA explores this concept. Very interesting stuff.
Edit: That's because it is Keanu Reeves...
I would definitely say no to mind upload and digital immortality just because you would be living forever. What would you do if you could never die? Personally i would literally go insane at some point. Also i find this concept interesting because it questions what it really means to be human and what conscieneceness really is. Wheather its just the brain or some other outside force. Its really fascinating.
@@knowsomething9384 100% agree
I remember coming across the copy issue while reading, "Orion Among the Stars" by Ben Bova.
The world in brave new world sounds pretty damn cool. I truly think if all guys were able to get it whenever they wanted as often as they wanted with zero consequence there would be a whole lot less violent crime.
It's a shame the show adaptation they made was horrible and got cancelled after the first season.
If you like this, I very much recommend watching Vsauce’s TH-cam Red series “Mindfield”, and especially a recent video in which Michael watched 3 of the best episodes with some experts that either were a part of the episode or just have great insight.
It is a 3 hour long video, as it features 3 full half-hour videos and in depth discussions, but it’s absolutely worth every second!
One of the 3 episodes in specific talks about the ethics of immortality.
I have lately thought about Neural Link and some of the possibilities. Imagine migrating your consciousness into a digital existence, rather than just hoping a copied neural imprint would be conscious of itself. The migration would begin with connecting to AI or internet networks. At first it would be simply tapping digital knowledge for use and information. But, potentially over time, one may be able to work into the digital network being self aware in the digital state. This could lend itself to the potential for one to consciously operate in a digital system. Then it may be possible to actually transfer one's self into an avatar, robot, or biological clone...with improvements. I would think that the transference of consciousness would alter one's consciousness once it is detached from the human form, like death of the human. A person would simply not be the person one was. There are ethical concerns as well to consider. In the meantime, I'm sure it will become one of the greatest thought experiments of all time.
Would I want to upload my mind and live forever? Not really. But I also don't think that would necessarily be me either. I think we are far too connected to our body to exist without it. I could see uploading a mind into another body but that would raise so many other issues and moral questions... The only part of me that would like to see the mind upload technology exist is the part of me who thinks absolutely everything is logical, including emotions. That yes there is a "recipe" for everything we feel even if we don't quite have words for it at this time. Sadly I doubt it is possible, as I'm sure this would require monitoring a group of people 24/7 from the day they are conceived up to their death to have a full picture of all the variables involved into making a mind unique, or at least as unique as possible.
"Ship of Theseus" - at what point does replacement of components mean the original no longer exists? Your body takes in nutrients to build replacement cells, such that there is not even a single 'original' cell left in about a decade - but you're still 'you', within allowance for experiences. That means your physical structure CAN NOT be what makes you 'you'. And that means that if you can copy yourself to a backup, that will be just as much 'you' when allowed to experience and think again as you are right now.
To reinforce that: If you lose a limb or ability, you are still basically 'you' - allowing for the variably traumatic experience of that loss (speaking from experience, here). So, it's reasonable to conclude that that copy of you is still going to be 'you' when 'awoken' in your/its new body. Whether or not it /stays/ 'you' is a different matter: I imagine finding yourself suddenly 100 years out of your own time and in possesion of a shiny new mechanical body just might be a bit traumatic in it's own way. ;p
There is a novel by Eric Idle, of Monty Python, on this subject. He argues that a sense of irony is the basis of consciousness. It's called "The Road to Mars."
There is a great series that has been on public television and is on youtube called "Closer to truth". It has a lot of videos focused on consciousness and the mind that I think you may find interesting to watch.
Thinking about what you asked.
“Would you still be you if you had your consciousness uploaded to a computer?”
Everything I say from here is my opinion. Yes, absolutely! I believe one’s consciousness is that individual. In or out of your physical body. We are simply spirits having a bodily experience. Now, this begs the question: Will people you know believe it is you? That is debatable. I think of both these questions like using psychedelics. If you eat an edible, are you still you? Or are you someone else? Are you only your sober perspective? They say a “drunken” mind speaks a sober heart.
Let’s talk about it.
Literally just finished cyberpunk 2077 and then this video came out, fun coincidence.
I actually prefer Doors of Perception by A. Huxley. Its short but very interesting, especially how he explains his own altered perceptions during the "experience". Some I have had myself during such experiences, others are very alien to me. As our perception of reality is our reality, it becomes quite interesting when you can compare similar experiences.
I lust love watching you think!
10:41 I would assume that even if you made a perfect copy of your brain and uploaded to this digital world, all you would achieve is create a copy of yourself whom lives in that world.
To put yourself in the digital world, I would imagine that you would need to wire your "meat brain" to a computer capable of translating your synapses to to binary or something.
One thing that this makes me think is that, imagine if in the future, we were born normally, lived our lives normally, but when we died, a corporation would extract our brain, restore it to health, put it in a machine that would preserve it to eternity and then uploaded you to the "Digital After Life". Kinda of interesting but scary at the same time.
If you replace all of the parts of a car, is it still the same car? If you disassemble all of the parts of a car and reassemble using the same parts, is it the same car? Similar questions but different thoughts depending on whether using the same or replacement parts.
I really can't recommend the "Ghost in the Shell"-franchise enough if you're interested in this sort of thing. Def the first 2 films from '95 and '03, but also the 52-episode Stand Alone Complex series if you can manage. It's long but absolutely worth it for the themes and topics it explores.
It's staple cyberpunk and way more intellectual than Blade Runner and most western sci-fi tv/film -- tho I love BR. It's more like "Star Trek" than "Star Wars", if you get me.
As my philosophy tutor put it, the Mind-Body dualism argument falls on a fallacy: thinking implies there must be a thinker, it cannot be true that the thinker thinks a thought if he is actively thinking, instead he thinks ..the thinker doesn't thought. To put the relational ducks in a row, dualism is really saying that a thinker thoughts a thought. At which point argument casts aside the referent IS (the Present tense is conflated with Past tense and so on). Ryle called this a Category Error, we'll understand his conclusion as an atomisation of language sensibility, having the proposition's subject agree with its object in the same tense as the claim. As Hume put it, "you can't get an Ought, from an Is". Ryle published the whole thing, I think, under the title"The ghost in the machine" although I could be wrong, only going by memory.
I entertain nearly every subject to be discussed.
I feel like there are 2 ways of looking at it based on what you believe.
1. Your brain is your consciousness and in essence...you. This would means your digital self IS you.
2. If you believe you possess a spirit, then your digital self would NOT be you. It would be like a chatGPT with your experiences and knowledge, but it would not be you because it's lacking that piece of you that completes your "self".
There may be a 3rd option between the two, something like the end of The Prestige. Your digital self is a copy of you, and thinks it's you, but isn't. This could lead to people dying and waking up just fine, but once they realize they died, not being able to mentally cope with the situation. It opens a LOT of problems down the line, but it solves some others.
Let's say you took someone's mind and put it in a robot body and put them on a spaceship and sent them to another galaxy. They don't need food/air/water/sleep, so the journey is easy for them, but much later they return and that tech is outlawed and we've forgotten about them. This could lead to us invading our own planet as an 'alien' species. The concept is kinda crazy (also avoidable). The uses are many for that tech, but the costs may be higher than we realize as well. It's like a Black Mirror episode. lol
I think the real problem is separating the functions that control the body and it’s processes, from the purely abstract “me” sections. Can they even be untangled?🤷♂️ Can they work independently?
I feel like, uploading your mind so that you can interact with.. „you“ ist just coping and found different ways from that moment on. You in your body will still die, while „it“ (from you in your body’s perspective) may live on based on the same memories until the uploading/copying but being an different „person“ from then on. So no immortality for me but maybe for the copy wich still won’t save me from death.
It’s confusing that I don’t like to live a lot of my time (or at least telling that to myself due to depression and other stuff) and still being scared of the fact that I have to die one day.
The thing people seem to fail to understand about uploading your mind to a computer is, it'll only be a copy... an entirely different person who's conscousness diverges from the original the very second it becomes aware.
The biological "you" would still exist, still live out its life, and eventually die.
Meanwhile your electronic/mechanical "twin" would carry on with its own existence for however long it lasted. It would simply be a copy, and not truly you.
This is an entirely different thing from migrating your mind from the biological to the non-biological, with there still being only one original pattern or mind.
It already happened, the rna gene editing is the start of creating totally new life forms too.
Definitely a different consciousness as soon as it wakes up and is the machine and not the person. Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and you were essentially an intelligence in a machine and not a person. That's how it would feel and see things. Even if you plan that it might happen, it's going to be a shock. Just my 2¢.
Cool subject!
If your mind is uploaded, your uploaded mind is immortal, you aren’t. When we die the uploaded version may continue and doubtful it ever be totally 100% us. There are several brilliantly written classic Star Trek episodes addressing this
a great tv show that is about this topic is Pantheon it actually a really fun watch
I would not want that. I feel you get one chance and should make the most of it. What happens after the mind and body expire is best left to the fate or faith you believe in.
What happens if there is a power cut?