I took down two back leaners using your upside down notch, and a rope pull with a come along. The results were perfect - thank you! Now I check my hinges after every felled tree to inspect the work - great so far. As an engineer, I love your physics and strength of materials approach in explaining the theory.
You are a true master in your trade. I did some leaner math today. How does a180 man pull a tree over with 2000lbs of force, and 30 Tons of Torque by using a very long rope secured to the tree, and anchored to a 2nd tree? Using wedges and a 180lb pull a back leaning tree can fall in the opposite direction easily and safely. As the angle of the rope increases the force decreases however the advantage is that if the pull is continuous then the continuous force will help to ensure that the tree falls in the desired location. I doubt this scientific method is OSHA approved. Rope A needs to be much longer than the height of leaning tree for fairly obvious reasons. 🙂 I would say that this energy is more than enough to break the holding wood at the stump and bring the leaning tree into the opposite direction of the lean. Well, OK I dropped the tree in my yard before I did the math here based on the principles of physics and mathematics. But I drew up a diagram i can attach as a photo if interested as the forces at work are fantastic to see via the diagram I drew up. Thanks for being an inspiration to so many! My email is robermeyer524 at gma i l dot com@@terryhale9006
Your entire series has been incredibly helpful as I clear a new property. Well though out in terms of explaining both theory and practical application.
This is great knowledge well presented and hopefully deter those who lack experience from trying this. I was a professional logger for many years and in my area if anyone had a dangerous tree I was who got called.. I was somewhat a specialist in directional felling. Even though I am retired I still get called out sometimes. I have cut some incredibly dangerous trees but because of experience and probably a little luck I have not once had a accident. A couple close calls but experience saved them. Most dangerous cuts I ever tried was 2 huge water maple by a river hanging over a mobile home at a angle of at least 30 or 40%. These trees both were 30 inches on stump. But I brought my heavy equipment for that job. Used a snatch block anchored put my dozer line through it and attached high up. Cut a face hinge in direction needed them to fall pulled tension on them. Then as you have demonstrated I bore cut leaving a thick hinge as with dozer had ample power to break it. Then released the trigger cut leaving trees set on wedges I drove in. Then sucked them over with my dozer winch worked like a charm. The owner was so grateful because he could not get anyone else to touch them not even the trimming contractors that worked for the power company.
@@terryhale9006 yeah that one made me think for sure and when I pulled that winch in gear the pucker power on the seat was intense until they broke over. At that point all you can do is pray you made your cuts right because as you know thing can turn bad real fast. But those trees was a threat someone had to do something. I am just thankful I had the right equipment and experience to pull it off.
Mr. Hale, I searched your channel library considerably for this topic and somehow didn't find it until months later. I am really glad I stumbled across it today. As a physics and engineering student - excellent information and presentation.
Thank you so much for this video series. My house was surrounded by dead and dying ash trees. I used a combination of tow straps, steel cable, tow chains and come alongs from harbor freight. There was no way we could afford what the tree services wanted for removal. The hardest part was getting the lines into the tree exactly where I wanted them.
Thank you Terry for your wonderful videos. I have many dead Ash trees around my land and buildings that need to come down. Some of them I will not attempt myself, but many I can do. Your expertise is so very helpful. Blessings, Del
Thank you Del. So sorry to hear about the dead Ash. Are you in one of the areas with a heavy infestation of Emerald Ash Borers? Making the best of a bad situation, at least Ash is a wonderful firewood. If standing dead, it is essentially fireplace ready with little need to dry. Splits easily and reasonably good BTUs.
THANKS Terry for your prompt detailed response! After considering everything, and with the potential for damage so great if something went wrong, I took your advice to hire a professional to climb the tree and take out the top piece by piece to avoid the risk of damaging the house and or worse me. Thanks for all the TH-cam information and your input has help kept me from taking a risk that might have turn out bad. Keep up the good work, you may have saved a life today :)
+Mark Stuart lol. Probably not a life, but maybe a house. I am relieved by your decision. I give you credit for having researched the matter. The fact that you did research it, however, probably indicates that you haven't got a lot of experience with taking down trees. The situation you described is about the trickiest there is, so it would not be a good candidate to gain experience with. Good choice.
Smart call friend. Terry has some great videos but he makes taking out trees way to complicated. I climb trees for a living and if I was just average home owner with min. Experience I would never suggest falling a tree around any structure.
@@terryhale9006 Yes I do & I'm in the process of sorting that out now. Front end loader pushing at 10-12 ft. up on a 60-70 ft. high maple maybe with 5-10 degrees back lean, but has 2nd heavy branch starting 6-7 feet up on the house side which is what I'll be pushing on. Hard to get lined up because septic & weeping bed are right where I'd like to push from so have to go a different way. Luckily I have a large oak & ash located evenly about 45 degrees on either side of the "other" desired fall direction to attach cables to in case the hinge breaks (or the loader does), but I don't think it will. The part in Back Leaners - Part 1 where you talked about the weight of the ash tree & its center of mass location was really helpful too to get an idea of what kinds of forces are needed & where to attach cables etc. Thanks for all the detailed info.
Hi Terry, I have a rotty, old tree leaning approximately 15 degrees towards (almost over) my block's power lines. I think it's too rotty to climb. Considering the topography and soft soil a bucket truck would need to extend through the power lines to reach the tree. It's about 16" in diameter at felling height and around 60' tall. I'm more than a little concerned it's gonna fall in the next big storm and take out the power for the whole block. Limbs are beginning to fall off it so it's got to go. I know to tie the pulling cable as high as possible to reduce the chance of the hinge breaking early and allowing the tree to fall the wrong way. But your excellent video didn't mention whether it's a good idea to pull the tree while cutting the far-side roots. (Refer back to your holistic approach to stump removal.) I would think the root structure would provide a better anchor than the possibly rotty hinge and thus reduce the chance of "bad things happening". What do you think ?
PLEASE don't attempt this noble public service. Call the power company. They have all the equipment, tools and trained personnel to deal with the tree. Plus, they have a strong vested interest in dealing with it BEFORE it takes out the power lines and they have to deal with it on a cold, windy, rainy night.
@@terryhale9006 This is a very interesting growing skill, and im very glad to be apart of it. I thank you and older generations that got us up to this point. I would never be as brave or as skilled as a climber if it werent for you guys
Thanks for creating these videos, I wish I would have seen them earlier but my only casualty was a rain gutter. But as I go back up to my home in the Sierras where I do not have access to youtube or the internet I will keep in mind your videos to prevent further damage. I thought a tractor pull connected by chain and chainsaw was all I needed but I can see now I need much more when it comes to back leaners, my vision is much clearer now, thanks.
I use a long winch cable, and a snatch block strapped or chained to an anchor point so my truck can pull in any direction in relation to the tree and be much further out than the tree can reach in a worst case situation. While the winch is handy for cable storage it's much more effective to use the momentum method described in the video, and that also means you don't need a winch! A roll of winch cable, some quality wire rope clamps and ferrules, and chain grab hooks (I don't care for slip hooks but they can live on the same cable) gets the job done. Many tow truck drivers store such "extension cables" in an old tire. Check the Crosby website for plenty of interesting rigging info so you know what to buy, and remember when using wire rope clamps to "never saddle a dead horse". I also use case steel Wyeth-Scott pullers but most of my pulling is machinery or vehicles so the weight is a sacrifice I happily make.
Excellent video series...would like more explanation on the benefits of the reverse hinge cut at 8:40 with respect to forces and safety. I assume a large open face notch in direction of fall with a reverse hinge would be best. Different type notching, plunge cuts, modified backcuts are getting overwhelming. Trying to gain my confidence in dropping a large red oak 24"dbh with a strong lean (may 20 deg). Will be using 5/16" transport chain and 1/2"Sampson rope with Maasdam puller on two separate tie offs about 30 ' up in tree to help control fall direction. Thanks
+Mark Stuart Hi Mark. Since you are talking winches, I'll assume you are talking about a back lean that is placing the tree in range of a structure. If you consider just the horizontal forces on the tree, these must balance if the tree is not to accelerate in the direction of the force. Your winches will be exerting a huge horizontal force. The only thing balancing that will be the horizontal force provided by the hinge. That force will be acting in shear. With a normal hinge, only the width of the hinge is resisting that shear. If the shear stress is high enough, the hinge will snap and the bottom of the tree will jump towards your winches, while the top of the tree will fall. If the bottom of the tree does not dig in and create a pivot point, it will continue bouncing/sliding towards your winch and the top of the tree will continue down onto what you had set out to protect. Even if the butt digs in when it first hits the ground, your hinge will be gone and falling to one side or the other becomes an issue. With the reverse hinge, you are adding an area of stump below the notch to increase the area resisting the shear force, thereby reducing the stress on the wood. (stress = force/area) Above the back cut, you are adding an area of trunk, which also reduces the shear stress in the hinge wood. With the setup you are describing, you do not need to use a plunge cut. You can simply make your back cut as normal, coming in from the back. Even if the butt stays put on the stump, once you pull the tree to an upright position, the hinge will be, at least, partially compromised, so controlling side-fall becomes a significant concern. A good plan would include a way to address that concern. Your 5/16 inch chain is probably appropriate. I'n not sure about your rope. There are many concerns about pulling: strength of the winches and the lines, angles covered, distance from the tree, reliability of the anchor points, the height, balance, and mass of the tree, and the drop zones available. While it is possible to address all of the issues satisfactorily, I still advise that you hire an insured professional to dismantle the tree, especially if you care about the tree going the wrong way. If you choose to tackle the tree yourself, document each step of the whole process. Win, lose, or draw, it should make a good TH-cam video.
Hi, Awesome series! I live in North Central Florida and just last Sunday around 6 pm or so during the Miss., Ga. & Fla. tornado outbreak a neighbor of ours about a 1/4 mile from our property was killed when a large oak tree cut her mobile home in half killing her and her beloved dog as they tried to run for safety. So so sad. It was a horrific wind with what looked like rotation or shear with intense blinding rain whose violence was over in less than a minute. I could not see the trees 30' away. It was like a white out of wind and rain. Our Live Oak and Water Oaks get to well over 60' or 70' and have incredibly shallow roots. We they topple they resemble a nail that had been standing on its head. Amazing how they ever lasted to that height in this sandy, loamy soil. I'm not sure about the Live Oak roots. They seem to be more secure even though I think the tree that killed that poor woman and her dog was a Live Oak. I've got a few large back leaners so this series is great. Thanks
@@terryhale9006 I think of a tree with a full leaf canopy as being like a mast on a sail boat having it's sail fully deployed... It helps me assess or at least be sober about the risk due to known constant wind or unforeseen winds while cutting... Much of my tree work is along the shores of Lake Michigan where winds are a critical factor, even in dropping limbs which are in full leaf bloom. I'm new to your videos, but truly appreciate your work and willingness to share your knowledge!
with a tree leaning toward a building, would it be effective to use two winches and chains to pull it to the side at about 90 degrees, using the same root-cut method you showed in another video? Or would the removal of the roots on the side make the tree fall on the building?
It would be very risky. Once you start to defeat the roots and the tree begins to move sideways, you'd be relying on the roots to keep it from reverting to its fall toward the building. Depending on the lean and other geometry, you might get lucky if the roots are feeling forgiving. If you have something you can anchor to that is farther away from the building than your leaner, your strongest chains should be used just to hold your leaner from falling towards the building. Then you can start to cut roots and pull parallel to the face of the building. Definitely want to make sure your retaining anchor point is good, your chain is strong, and your tie-in point is high enough. If your tie-in point is too low, even if the anchor and chain hold, the root ball, once loosened, could kick away from the house, allowing the top to fall on it.
Its hard for a lot of people to digest all the maths but the concept is so well explained, guessing can be a terrible mistake i will be a repeat watcher . Best wishes ❤️
Thanks Terry, Interesting point towards the end of the video: the 'reverse' hinge cut. Dont think I've seen that done (intentionally)! Surely it would significantly increase the resistance of the hinge to the clockwize moment?
Thanks Pete. I'd rather not go into detail about how I figured out that reverse hinges are sometimes needed. There probably is an increase in the resistance, but it should be minor. In either case, the hinge will have to achieve the same net vertical shear movement, With the reverse hinge, the fibers will be laterally compressed, making it just a little bit harder for the fibers to pull apart. Compared to the pull required for the weight of the tree, the increase in hinge strength should be negligible.
Hi Terry, thanks for the reply. well its an interesting concept for which I can see the logic. I guess its the prejudice of practice that makes me question it. I enjoyed viewing your videos on the functional mechanics btw.
I'm planning to fell a pretty massive beech with a slight backlean close to a house. It is about 5 ft dbh, so I'll rent a 10 hp Stihl with 105 cm sword. This is a sister tree of a beech that i took down a few years ago a few yards away. I will use the tapered hinge, plenty of wedges, reverse undercut and pull the beast over with a tractor and wire. I will have one to assist me, of course. I think your calculations are very useful. Thanks!
It leans about 4 to 5 degrees. It splits into four large branches 4 m up, so it is a bit difficult to estimate exactly where the center of gravity is, but I think it is right above the back edge of the base stump. I think it will be just as risky to cut it down piece by piece than felling the tree with the crown. The tree was pruned some 30 years ago, so the crown should not be very top heavy.
The beast has fallen. The tractor was spinning a bit despite rear tyre chains and diff lock engaged. So we added a 12 ton hydraulic jack to ease driving the wedges further in. The tree fell exactly like planned. It turned out that two of the four main branches were rotten, the felling was in due time. Thanks for you advices!
Thanks, Ob. I have often thought I would have liked being a teacher. There are a lot of them in my family. They tell me it's a lot harder than one would expect.
How to estimate the tree's center of gravity to help judge how high to get the rope? Actually, I will do 3- direction of fall and 30 deg to either side for extra protection of the house. In my case, that I'm staring at, scarlet oak, 70 yrs old, 30 to 31 in dia at 4 ft up, at 27 ft giant crotch where 3 limbs separate with a wide crown spread. Trunk is straight but crown has more over house, goes 60 feet sideways. Max height of trees around me is 90 ft. Calculated weight of trunk up to 27 ft is 8000 lbs. I currently plan on attaching my ropes at the 27 ft crotch. Comments? Can't get any truck to site. thanks, Joe Horton in TN
Joe, I really have no method for estimating the height of the center of gravity. As a pure guess, I'd say it' s probably somewhere near half the height of the tree. One of those outfits that lifts out an entire tree with a crane could probably come up with some ranges pretty easily by laying the tree down and then trying to lift it at several different points to see where it balances. Species probably matters as well. Open-grown oaks have always impressed me with how much weight they can have high up and how far they can extend sideways. The higher you can place your pull, they less force you will have to exert. With a throw bag and a throw line, you should be able to get a rope up to 40 feet pretty easily, provided there is a decent crotch there. (Fifty feet is getting close to my limit.) Given that your house is at risk, I'm hoping your rope is high capacity. Further, I hope that you have some good winch(es) to deliver the pull needed. That 60 branch over the house could have a LOT of weight in it.
thanks. Your best guess, considering it is red oak, perfect hinge dimensions, placement ie % way thru the dia, step height (zero kickback, don't care about wasting log). I have cut a 32 inch dia red oak down but was only aiming the crown on top of my driveway.
After viewing both videos, it has become painfully obvious that if all this information is digested and utilized, there will be no need to have someone holding my beer.
+Tin Man Ideally, the hinge at the stump will be merely a pivot point. In the special situation where you have not managed to get the rope ABOVE the center of gravity of the tree, the top of the tree will still be trying to fall away from you, but your pull will will act as a pivot point, making the base of the stump try to move towards you. If that force is sufficient, the hinge will rupture and the butt of the trunk will come off of the stump, towards you, and the top of the tree will succeed in its desire to land on the house. By making the back cut below the notch, you add a lot of wood to resist that shear force.
I really wish there was a really good method from preventing the case that when the hinge breaks the tree slips off and the base slides wherever it wants.
I like your videos, but, just out of curiousity, why do you call this series "The Weakened Woodsman"? Weakened = made weak or weaker. Not the same as "weekend" woodsman.
Three years ago, I caught some weird virus and my immune response fought back hard, nailing both the invaders and a good bit of my heart muscle. Turns out "viral attack" is the third leading cause of congestive heart failure. My ejection factor dropped to 10%. In healthy people, the heart ejects 60 to 80% of the blood on each contraction. After a year, my heart has begun to heal and my ejection factor is back up into the 30-35% range. Definitely not ideal, but I treasure it.
Thanks. My cardiologist says my heart's ejection fraction has improved from 10-15% to 30-35%. Normal is around 50-60%, but I'm delighted to have healed this much.
That is the craziest stuff I've ever heard . Climb the tree and bring it down in sections. We are tree climbers and cutters not rocket scientist . What your talking about is not practical for your average tree climber. We like to know for sure where the tree is going so it's best to climb the tree and use snatch blocks or a speed line to know you have full control of your tree at all times
I took down two back leaners using your upside down notch, and a rope pull with a come along. The results were perfect - thank you! Now I check my hinges after every felled tree to inspect the work - great so far. As an engineer, I love your physics and strength of materials approach in explaining the theory.
Congratulations on your successes!
You are a true master in your trade. I did some leaner math today. How does a180 man pull a tree over with 2000lbs of force, and 30 Tons of Torque by using a very long rope secured to the tree, and anchored to a 2nd tree? Using wedges and a 180lb pull a back leaning tree can fall in the opposite direction easily and safely. As the angle of the rope increases the force decreases however the advantage is that if the pull is continuous then the continuous force will help to ensure that the tree falls in the desired location. I doubt this scientific method is OSHA approved. Rope A needs to be much longer than the height of leaning tree for fairly obvious reasons. 🙂 I would say that this energy is more than enough to break the holding wood at the stump and bring the leaning tree into the opposite direction of the lean. Well, OK I dropped the tree in my yard before I did the math here based on the principles of physics and mathematics. But I drew up a diagram i can attach as a photo if interested as the forces at work are fantastic to see via the diagram I drew up. Thanks for being an inspiration to so many! My email is robermeyer524 at gma i l dot com@@terryhale9006
Your entire series has been incredibly helpful as I clear a new property. Well though out in terms of explaining both theory and practical application.
Great! Happy to hear it. I hope your new property brings you plenty of pride and enjoyment!
ditto! 100% :)
This is great knowledge well presented and hopefully deter those who lack experience from trying this. I was a professional logger for many years and in my area if anyone had a dangerous tree I was who got called.. I was somewhat a specialist in directional felling. Even though I am retired I still get called out sometimes. I have cut some incredibly dangerous trees but because of experience and probably a little luck I have not once had a accident. A couple close calls but experience saved them. Most dangerous cuts I ever tried was 2 huge water maple by a river hanging over a mobile home at a angle of at least 30 or 40%. These trees both were 30 inches on stump. But I brought my heavy equipment for that job. Used a snatch block anchored put my dozer line through it and attached high up. Cut a face hinge in direction needed them to fall pulled tension on them. Then as you have demonstrated I bore cut leaving a thick hinge as with dozer had ample power to break it. Then released the trigger cut leaving trees set on wedges I drove in. Then sucked them over with my dozer winch worked like a charm. The owner was so grateful because he could not get anyone else to touch them not even the trimming contractors that worked for the power company.
Wow. That really does sound like a risky challenge. Not surprised the trimming contractors shied away. Nice job on your part!
@@terryhale9006 yeah that one made me think for sure and when I pulled that winch in gear the pucker power on the seat was intense until they broke over. At that point all you can do is pray you made your cuts right because as you know thing can turn bad real fast. But those trees was a threat someone had to do something. I am just thankful I had the right equipment and experience to pull it off.
thank you to Terry Hale for all the knowledge. Great info ,treework has become a new passion and its great to have this information so available
Mr. Hale, I searched your channel library considerably for this topic and somehow didn't find it until months later. I am really glad I stumbled across it today. As a physics and engineering student - excellent information and presentation.
Thank you, Sir!
Thank you so much for this video series. My house was surrounded by dead and dying ash trees. I used a combination of tow straps, steel cable, tow chains and come alongs from harbor freight. There was no way we could afford what the tree services wanted for removal. The hardest part was getting the lines into the tree exactly where I wanted them.
Thank you Terry for your wonderful videos. I have many dead Ash trees around my land and buildings that need to come down. Some of them I will not attempt myself, but many I can do. Your expertise is so very helpful. Blessings, Del
Thank you Del. So sorry to hear about the dead Ash. Are you in one of the areas with a heavy infestation of Emerald Ash Borers?
Making the best of a bad situation, at least Ash is a wonderful firewood. If standing dead, it is essentially fireplace ready with little need to dry. Splits easily and reasonably good BTUs.
THANKS Terry for your prompt detailed response! After considering everything, and with the potential for damage so great if something went wrong, I took your advice to hire a professional to climb the tree and take out the top piece by piece to avoid the risk of damaging the house and or worse me. Thanks for all the TH-cam information and your input has help kept me from taking a risk that might have turn out bad. Keep up the good work, you may have saved a life today :)
+Mark Stuart lol. Probably not a life, but maybe a house. I am relieved by your decision. I give you credit for having researched the matter. The fact that you did research it, however, probably indicates that you haven't got a lot of experience with taking down trees. The situation you described is about the trickiest there is, so it would not be a good candidate to gain experience with.
Good choice.
Smart call friend. Terry has some great videos but he makes taking out trees way to complicated. I climb trees for a living and if I was just average home owner with min. Experience I would never suggest falling a tree around any structure.
excellent helpful videos the very best I have seen on You Tube
That tip on the hinge at the end thank you dude!! I've been obsessing over WTF to do about that for a couple days now!
Sounds like you've got a dangerous one to deal with! Be sure your pulling arrangements can handle the back lean!
@@terryhale9006 Yes I do & I'm in the process of sorting that out now. Front end loader pushing at 10-12 ft. up on a 60-70 ft. high maple maybe with 5-10 degrees back lean, but has 2nd heavy branch starting 6-7 feet up on the house side which is what I'll be pushing on. Hard to get lined up because septic & weeping bed are right where I'd like to push from so have to go a different way. Luckily I have a large oak & ash located evenly about 45 degrees on either side of the "other" desired fall direction to attach cables to in case the hinge breaks (or the loader does), but I don't think it will. The part in Back Leaners - Part 1 where you talked about the weight of the ash tree & its center of mass location was really helpful too to get an idea of what kinds of forces are needed & where to attach cables etc. Thanks for all the detailed info.
Best videos I've come across. Beats every book I have read too:) Keep it comming plz:)
Hi Terry, I have a rotty, old tree leaning approximately 15 degrees towards (almost over) my block's power lines. I think it's too rotty to climb. Considering the topography and soft soil a bucket truck would need to extend through the power lines to reach the tree. It's about 16" in diameter at felling height and around 60' tall. I'm more than a little concerned it's gonna fall in the next big storm and take out the power for the whole block. Limbs are beginning to fall off it so it's got to go. I know to tie the pulling cable as high as possible to reduce the chance of the hinge breaking early and allowing the tree to fall the wrong way. But your excellent video didn't mention whether it's a good idea to pull the tree while cutting the far-side roots. (Refer back to your holistic approach to stump removal.) I would think the root structure would provide a better anchor than the possibly rotty hinge and thus reduce the chance of "bad things happening". What do you think ?
PLEASE don't attempt this noble public service. Call the power company. They have all the equipment, tools and trained personnel to deal with the tree. Plus, they have a strong vested interest in dealing with it BEFORE it takes out the power lines and they have to deal with it on a cold, windy, rainy night.
@@terryhale9006 a lot of times the power company won't do it, for whatever excuse they come up with on that particular day.
Thank you very much for you informative video ! im glad we have more equipment now to make the job easier and safer.
Thanks, LJ. The rate of invention in so many fields has been incredible.
@@terryhale9006 This is a very interesting growing skill, and im very glad to be apart of it. I thank you and older generations that got us up to this point. I would never be as brave or as skilled as a climber if it werent for you guys
Thanks for creating these videos, I wish I would have seen them earlier but my only casualty was a rain gutter. But as I go back up to my home in the Sierras where I do not have access to youtube or the internet I will keep in mind your videos to prevent further damage. I thought a tractor pull connected by chain and chainsaw was all I needed but I can see now I need much more when it comes to back leaners, my vision is much clearer now, thanks.
Good luck to you James. Sounds like you have a wonderful retreat!
I use a long winch cable, and a snatch block strapped or chained to an anchor point so my truck can pull in any direction in relation to the tree and be much further out than the tree can reach in a worst case situation. While the winch is handy for cable storage it's much more effective to use the momentum method described in the video, and that also means you don't need a winch! A roll of winch cable, some quality wire rope clamps and ferrules, and chain grab hooks (I don't care for slip hooks but they can live on the same cable) gets the job done. Many tow truck drivers store such "extension cables" in an old tire. Check the Crosby website for plenty of interesting rigging info so you know what to buy, and remember when using wire rope clamps to "never saddle a dead horse". I also use case steel Wyeth-Scott pullers but most of my pulling is machinery or vehicles so the weight is a sacrifice I happily make.
@@obfuscated3090 Thanks for info
Thank you very much for doing these videos. they are useful and appreciated.
Thank you. Rene.
The root of the word"reasonable" is from a Latin word meaning"to calculate",past, present,and future.Thanks for the math!!!
Excellent video series...would like more explanation on the benefits of the reverse hinge cut at 8:40 with respect to forces and safety. I assume a large open face notch in direction of fall with a reverse hinge would be best. Different type notching, plunge cuts, modified backcuts are getting overwhelming. Trying to gain my confidence in dropping a large red oak 24"dbh with a strong lean (may 20 deg). Will be using 5/16" transport chain and 1/2"Sampson rope with Maasdam puller on two separate tie offs about 30 ' up in tree to help control fall direction. Thanks
+Mark Stuart Hi Mark.
Since you are talking winches, I'll assume you are talking about a back lean that is placing the tree in range of a structure.
If you consider just the horizontal forces on the tree, these must balance if the tree is not to accelerate in the direction of the force. Your winches will be exerting a huge horizontal force. The only thing balancing that will be the horizontal force provided by the hinge. That force will be acting in shear. With a normal hinge, only the width of the hinge is resisting that shear. If the shear stress is high enough, the hinge will snap and the bottom of the tree will jump towards your winches, while the top of the tree will fall. If the bottom of the tree does not dig in and create a pivot point, it will continue bouncing/sliding towards your winch and the top of the tree will continue down onto what you had set out to protect.
Even if the butt digs in when it first hits the ground, your hinge will be gone and falling to one side or the other becomes an issue.
With the reverse hinge, you are adding an area of stump below the notch to increase the area resisting the shear force, thereby reducing the stress on the wood. (stress = force/area) Above the back cut, you are adding an area of trunk, which also reduces the shear stress in the hinge wood.
With the setup you are describing, you do not need to use a plunge cut. You can simply make your back cut as normal, coming in from the back.
Even if the butt stays put on the stump, once you pull the tree to an upright position, the hinge will be, at least, partially compromised, so controlling side-fall becomes a significant concern. A good plan would include a way to address that concern.
Your 5/16 inch chain is probably appropriate. I'n not sure about your rope. There are many concerns about pulling: strength of the winches and the lines, angles covered, distance from the tree, reliability of the anchor points, the height, balance, and mass of the tree, and the drop zones available. While it is possible to address all of the issues satisfactorily, I still advise that you hire an insured professional to dismantle the tree, especially if you care about the tree going the wrong way.
If you choose to tackle the tree yourself, document each step of the whole process. Win, lose, or draw, it should make a good TH-cam video.
Hi, Awesome series!
I live in North Central Florida and just last Sunday around 6 pm or so during the Miss., Ga. & Fla. tornado outbreak a neighbor of ours about a 1/4 mile from our property was killed when a large oak tree cut her mobile home in half killing her and her beloved dog as they tried to run for safety. So so sad. It was a horrific wind with what looked like rotation or shear with intense blinding rain whose violence was over in less than a minute. I could not see the trees 30' away. It was like a white out of wind and rain.
Our Live Oak and Water Oaks get to well over 60' or 70' and have incredibly shallow roots. We they topple they resemble a nail that had been standing on its head. Amazing how they ever lasted to that height in this sandy, loamy soil. I'm not sure about the Live Oak roots. They seem to be more secure even though I think the tree that killed that poor woman and her dog was a Live Oak.
I've got a few large back leaners so this series is great. Thanks
Sorry to hear about the lady and her dog. It is amazing what air can do when it really gets moving. Stay safe.
@@terryhale9006 I think of a tree with a full leaf canopy as being like a mast on a sail boat having it's sail fully deployed...
It helps me assess or at least be sober about the risk due to known constant wind or unforeseen winds while cutting...
Much of my tree work is along the shores of Lake Michigan where winds are a critical factor, even in dropping limbs which are in full leaf bloom.
I'm new to your videos, but truly appreciate your work and willingness to share your knowledge!
with a tree leaning toward a building, would it be effective to use two winches and chains to pull it to the side at about 90 degrees, using the same root-cut method you showed in another video? Or would the removal of the roots on the side make the tree fall on the building?
It would be very risky. Once you start to defeat the roots and the tree begins to move sideways, you'd be relying on the roots to keep it from reverting to its fall toward the building. Depending on the lean and other geometry, you might get lucky if the roots are feeling forgiving. If you have something you can anchor to that is farther away from the building than your leaner, your strongest chains should be used just to hold your leaner from falling towards the building. Then you can start to cut roots and pull parallel to the face of the building. Definitely want to make sure your retaining anchor point is good, your chain is strong, and your tie-in point is high enough. If your tie-in point is too low, even if the anchor and chain hold, the root ball, once loosened, could kick away from the house, allowing the top to fall on it.
Thanks, I appreciate your reply!
Its hard for a lot of people to digest all the maths but the concept is so well explained, guessing can be a terrible mistake i will be a repeat watcher . Best wishes ❤️
Thanks Terry,
Interesting point towards the end of the video: the 'reverse' hinge cut. Dont think I've seen that done (intentionally)!
Surely it would significantly increase the resistance of the hinge to the clockwize moment?
Thanks Pete. I'd rather not go into detail about how I figured out that reverse hinges are sometimes needed.
There probably is an increase in the resistance, but it should be minor. In either case, the hinge will have to achieve the same net vertical shear movement, With the reverse hinge, the fibers will be laterally compressed, making it just a little bit harder for the fibers to pull apart. Compared to the pull required for the weight of the tree, the increase in hinge strength should be negligible.
Hi Terry, thanks for the reply.
well its an interesting concept for which I can see the logic. I guess its the prejudice of practice that makes me question it.
I enjoyed viewing your videos on the functional mechanics btw.
Brilliant point to reverse the hinge cutting!
Truth be told, an "incident" taught me that.
I'm planning to fell a pretty massive beech with a slight backlean close to a house. It is about 5 ft dbh, so I'll rent a 10 hp Stihl with 105 cm sword. This is a sister tree of a beech that i took down a few years ago a few yards away. I will use the tapered hinge, plenty of wedges, reverse undercut and pull the beast over with a tractor and wire. I will have one to assist me, of course. I think your calculations are very useful. Thanks!
Sounds like you've got a lot at risk there. Let's hope that "slight" back lean isn't deceitful.
It leans about 4 to 5 degrees. It splits into four large branches 4 m up, so it is a bit difficult to estimate exactly where the center of gravity is, but I think it is right above the back edge of the base stump. I think it will be just as risky to cut it down piece by piece than felling the tree with the crown. The tree was pruned some 30 years ago, so the crown should not be very top heavy.
The beast has fallen. The tractor was spinning a bit despite rear tyre chains and diff lock engaged. So we added a 12 ton hydraulic jack to ease driving the wedges further in. The tree fell exactly like planned. It turned out that two of the four main branches were rotten, the felling was in due time. Thanks for you advices!
If you had taught vectors in my high school I'd have paid more attention! Nice work.
Thanks, Ob. I have often thought I would have liked being a teacher. There are a lot of them in my family. They tell me it's a lot harder than one would expect.
@@terryhale9006 I second Ob's comment!
How to estimate the tree's center of gravity to help judge how high to get the rope? Actually, I will do 3- direction of fall and 30 deg to either side for extra protection of the house. In my case, that I'm staring at, scarlet oak, 70 yrs old, 30 to 31 in dia at 4 ft up, at 27 ft giant crotch where 3 limbs separate with a wide crown spread. Trunk is straight but crown has more over house, goes 60 feet sideways. Max height of trees around me is 90 ft. Calculated weight of trunk up to 27 ft is 8000 lbs. I currently plan on attaching my ropes at the 27 ft crotch. Comments? Can't get any truck to site. thanks, Joe Horton in TN
Joe, I really have no method for estimating the height of the center of gravity. As a pure guess, I'd say it' s probably somewhere near half the height of the tree. One of those outfits that lifts out an entire tree with a crane could probably come up with some ranges pretty easily by laying the tree down and then trying to lift it at several different points to see where it balances.
Species probably matters as well. Open-grown oaks have always impressed me with how much weight they can have high up and how far they can extend sideways.
The higher you can place your pull, they less force you will have to exert. With a throw bag and a throw line, you should be able to get a rope up to 40 feet pretty easily, provided there is a decent crotch there. (Fifty feet is getting close to my limit.)
Given that your house is at risk, I'm hoping your rope is high capacity. Further, I hope that you have some good winch(es) to deliver the pull needed. That 60 branch over the house could have a LOT of weight in it.
thanks. Your best guess, considering it is red oak, perfect hinge dimensions, placement ie % way thru the dia, step height (zero kickback, don't care about wasting log). I have cut a 32 inch dia red oak down but was only aiming the crown on top of my driveway.
Thanks again
You're welcome.
After viewing both videos, it has become painfully obvious that if all this information is digested and utilized, there will be no need to have someone holding my beer.
Not sure about that. I have yet to successfully one-hand any saw bigger than an MS 271.
I'm having trouble understanding what you gain by putting the back cut under the hinge rather than over it.
+Tin Man Ideally, the hinge at the stump will be merely a pivot point. In the special situation where you have not managed to get the rope ABOVE the center of gravity of the tree, the top of the tree will still be trying to fall away from you, but your pull will will act as a pivot point, making the base of the stump try to move towards you. If that force is sufficient, the hinge will rupture and the butt of the trunk will come off of the stump, towards you, and the top of the tree will succeed in its desire to land on the house.
By making the back cut below the notch, you add a lot of wood to resist that shear force.
@@terryhale9006 thank you for explaining!
I really wish there was a really good method from preventing the case that when the hinge breaks the tree slips off and the base slides wherever it wants.
Actually the video discusses this at 8:30.
Terry discusses this in the series. You apparently missed it. Both sliding and rotating.
this rocks
I like your videos, but, just out of curiousity, why do you call this series "The Weakened Woodsman"?
Weakened = made weak or weaker.
Not the same as "weekend" woodsman.
Three years ago, I caught some weird virus and my immune response fought back hard, nailing both the invaders and a good bit of my heart muscle. Turns out "viral attack" is the third leading cause of congestive heart failure. My ejection factor dropped to 10%. In healthy people, the heart ejects 60 to 80% of the blood on each contraction. After a year, my heart has begun to heal and my ejection factor is back up into the 30-35% range. Definitely not ideal, but I treasure it.
Terry Hale Good luck Terry!
Thanks. My cardiologist says my heart's ejection fraction has improved from 10-15% to 30-35%. Normal is around 50-60%, but I'm delighted to have healed this much.
@@terryhale9006 Heart update???
That is the craziest stuff I've ever heard . Climb the tree and bring it down in sections. We are tree climbers and cutters not rocket scientist . What your talking about is not practical for your average tree climber. We like to know for sure where the tree is going so it's best to climb the tree and use snatch blocks or a speed line to know you have full control of your tree at all times