BAC TSR-2: Unexpected Failure
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During the mid-1950s, the geopolitical environment was characterized by a tense standoff between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, with both sides advancing their weaponry and defense systems. The Ministry of Supply, responsible for ensuring the UK's military readiness, sought an aircraft capable of fulfilling multiple roles: tactical strike, reconnaissance, and nuclear delivery. This aircraft needed to penetrate heavily defended airspace, operate at low altitudes to evade radar detection, and execute precise strikes on enemy targets.
Given its success with the Canberra, English Electric was seen as a prime candidate to develop this next-generation aircraft. The Ministry of Supply issued a requirement for a new Tactical Strike Reconnaissance aircraft to meet several critical needs. It had to be supersonic to outrun and outmaneuver threats, have an extended operational range to reach distant targets without refueling, and incorporate advanced avionics and electronic countermeasures for mission success in hostile environments.
The project aimed to create an aircraft embodying the latest in aeronautical engineering, addressing existing aircraft limitations and anticipating future threats. The design focused on speed, agility, and survivability, reflecting the strategic need for a versatile and powerful platform capable of various mission profiles. The TSR-2 was envisioned as a key element in the UK's defense strategy, providing both conventional and nuclear deterrence.
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It didn’t fail, it was cancelled
Exactly after the war the UK tried to keep up and lots of projects were cancelled purely because we were broke not because we didn't have the ideas.
On top of this we were rapidly decommissioning lots of equipment inc ships so basically our needs were much smaller so we didn't have the markets for our equipment so couldn't compete.
This has gone on throughout the seventies with the carriers and basically the Fleet Air Arm disappearing. The RAF was also decimated with lots of dedicated aircraft going and "multi role" taking over. The army has also been much reduced.
It makes sense to buy "off the peg" however much we would like it to be made in the UK.
Damn right, the Yanks forced the UK government to cancel it, or we wouldn't get the loan we needed!
Unfortunately never given the chance to show its potential.
Yep, US pressure. Almost like the price of saying 'no' to getting dragged into Vietnam. Didn't even end up with the F1-11 alternative (luckily). Phantoms with Spey's were ok I suppose.
Indeed, read 'Death of the TSR2' by Stephen Hastings (former boss of Handley Page, it tells me whole story.
Tory Duncan Sands as a Minister decided that manned aircraft was yesterday’s thinking.
Mountbatten was pushing for the Super Buccaneer a supersonic version.
The Buccaneer was already flying and when one considers the effect of Sams it was found that the Buccaneer performed better and at a around 10% of the cost.
Plus the Buccaneer unlike the F111 did not damage its ground staff
The quote I heard was: 'All aircraft run on three priorities - design, funding and politics - TSR2 excelled on everything except the politics'.
There was also many rumours of political and financial pressure put on the British by the americans as they didnt want any compitition when it came to selling arms and aircraft to the world .. also one should not under estimate the free flowing ' manilla envelopes ' full of dollars that American industry later gained a reputation for i.e west german politicians being bribed by lockheed to but the starfighter.. which later killed many in-experienced german pilots !!!
One I read was "Mach 2 from a cabbage patch" Project was too ambitious and way over budget. RAF didn't want it by the end...
Canberra 'obsolete' in the late 1950s? It remained in service until 2010 with RAF and specialised versions are still in use.
TSR2 could also have replaced the Lightning as it had capability of better CAP ability. .
Unlikely as the TSR2 waste intended as a stroke aircraft the Lightning was an intercepter
@@mothmagic1 EEA/ BAC proposed a variant TSR2 as a CAP interceptor. Switch roles had been part of the offering of all new projects at the time, Lightning as a strike variant and was the thinking behind the AFVG, Jaguar and then Tornado.
The Canberra was so good even the yanks had to acknowledge this by building them under licence in the USA with Martin aircraft as the main contractor !
Fascinating the range of opinions on TSR2, RR powered Phantoms, Buccaneer, F-111 etc. All have a modicum of TRUTH but like all engineering all benefit from developments following their first introduction. So probably TSR2 could have become a great plane. But to say it was obsolete even before it flew is an exaggeration surely
A report held by Royal Air Force Historical Society titled -TSR2 with HINDSIGHT. Contained in which a section titled A System Study of TSR2 by Wing Commander G B Wilson BSc CEng MIEE. This highlights that some considerably time before any change of government that no confidence in the ability of the management of BAC to give ‘us the aeroplane we want, when we want it and at the right price.’
In addition, reports from The Technical staff at RAF Henlow that ran on as the final in depth study, named No 6 Advanced Weapons Course concluded that there were considerable doubts about many technical aspects of the TSR2 system, that would have cost considerable amounts of money, time which of course would shorten the service life. Further pointing out that ACAS(OR) did not believe that BAC was capable of providing the aircraft. From the document the following comment, ‘Perhaps the project should have been cancelled then but who could recommend such a thing after that brief to the (then conservative) Prime Minister?’
One can assume that a change of government was needed to draw a curtain on the project. Come the General Election of late 1964 this opportunity was fulfilled.
The TSR2 was so advanced that nothing could come close to it for decades
It was canceled so did not fail
Not really
Watch the documentary about the TSR2 available on TH-cam , it was political shinanigans by the USA and incompetence on behalf of the British Labour government of the time . Mountbatten was also involved and comes out of it not in a positive way . Blue streak and Black Arrow also went the same way USA political pressure and incompetence, short sighted British politicians. This came from the mouths of the men I talked to at the remnants of High down Test Site on the Isle of White , they actually worked there ,it was shut down over night .
Perhaps you should read up on the Avro Arrow and that cancellation
Plus the SR 53 and American bribes to buy US
Think the Canadian Arrow went the same way!
@@michaelhart895 the MOD procurement wanted shit of it along with the Air Marshals as costs and delays mounted, well before Labour was in charge.
It was recognised that it could only be cancelled with a change of government
Hindsight proved Mountbatten correct it would have been more cost effective to develop the Buccaneer 2, the supersonic version, remember the Bucc was in service and flying long before the TSR2 lifted a wheel off the runway.
The TSR2 was a victim of political incompetance. I remember a Alan Whicker tv special that had a number of fuselage pieces piled high in a scrap yard.There was even an entire cockpit assembly seen over his right shoulder. He was not flattering in his comments about the then government.
He was not privy to the information that the MOD had chopped the project sometime before and needed a change of government to get the project cancelled. Also the junking of airframes and jigs was an American requirement to prevent the uk dropping the F111 and restarting the TSR2 again. Hindsight says the better option would have been to adopt Blackburn's plan and develop their Supersonic Buccaneer. Worth remembering that the Buccaneer was in service and flying before the TSR2 had got a wheel off the tarmac.
On another page it was argued that the later Tornado was a much better investment overall.
The RAF canceled the F-111K order and was replaced by the Buccaneer.
And the Aussies received their F-111's almost 10 years late.
It wasn't until the "F" model came out that the USAF got what they wanted..
Good point re the F. TSR2 problems would have been the avionics..
You forgot to add that both the British and Canadian new aircraft were erased from the face of the earth in 48 hours at the same time. A certain country had nothing anywhere like them. Let's just say we were 'lent on'. Nothing like a 'special relationship' is there ? Do your history FULLY, young man, my father was there.
America is the 'ally' that nobody wants but everyone needs!
The only thing 'special' about the relationship with the USA was the fact they screwed us more than they did the enemy combatants post WW2 .... The main aim of the americans was destroying the British Empire and industry ... as this was they're only real challenger post 1945 .. they may be our colonial cousins ... but they have a long history of stabbing us in the back ... from 1776 till today actually !!!
I was there, too. You're dead right.
You Brits and Canadians keep blaming the Yanks for the demise of your domestic aviation industries. You voted for the stupid politicians who destroyed them, not us
Virtually every decision taken regarding UK aerospace between 1957 to 1966 was known as wrong at the time.
1) HS681 was unnecessary and a jet powered shortened version of the Belfast would have been more capable. it would also have meant that the RAF VC10 order was not necessary.
2) P1154 was an aircraft the RAF did not need with a supersonic capability and the RN did not require a VSTOL capability either. The Pegasus could not be PCB Reheated. Dead end.
3) TSR2 was the logical and capable replacement for Canberra and Buccaneer and should have continued in development. Once cancelled ONLY an advanced Buccaneer made sense, not F-111.
4) EE proposed a Swing Wing Two Seater Lightning which would have replaced the Sea Vixen for the RN without the idiocy of the Spey Phantom expense, doing so much more cheaply and could then replace the RAF Lightning F6 and made a multi role platform too. No need for the multi-national half way house of the Jaguar and would have segued better into a Tornado type.
5) HS Andover was less capable than the HP Military Herald. Vulcan was less capable than the HP Victor. HP was victimised for not merging.
A cheaper and more capable and fully employed industry would have resulted.
Other missed opportunities would have been a light fighter based on Fairey Delta 2, De Gaulle said so, the same company's Rotodyne would have been better than buying Chinook a decade later. Even turning the surplus AW Argosys into an AEW platform was better than making the Shackleton MR2 the carrier.
A400M, white Elephant?
@@JohnSmith-ei2pz Well, it was a political project, not an aviation one .... 15 years to produce a plane which was simply a re-engined Belfast ... which the C130J is just as capable of.
@@uingaeoc3905The A400M is much faster than the C130, over 500mph (440 knots) while climbing through 30,000 feet. I hear them going over my home just north of London and look them up on Flightradar24.
@@uingaeoc3905 It still cannot achieve what is was claimed to be able to do! MOD sold another Pup! Vince cable should hold his head in shame!!
@@JohnSmith-ei2pz Are you referring to TSR2? I believe it would have achieved what it was supposed to - the advanced Buccaneer was given its electronics - the Olympus was developed for Concorde, it could supercruise. the argument was simply 'can we afford it' and the answer was 'not really'.
Vince Cable was a child when this decision was taken - you mean someone else I think.
The TSR-2 didn't 'fail' at all. The UK was out of money and Harold Wilson went cap-in-hand to the US for money. One of the specifications for the release of the money was that the TSR-2 was scrapped in favour of the F-111. General Dynamics were right up shit street with that aircraft - it was killing pilots, killing the company and they couldn't fix it. Exports (e.g. Australia and the UK) had disappeared down the pan in favour of the TSR-2 which out-performed the F-111 i n ALL flight regimes. That's why all six aircraft and the tooling was destroyed overnight, to prevent any possibility of the TSR-2 production ever being started up again.
Guess who sorted the problems with the F-111? There's three letters in the airforce name; the middle one is A and it's surrounded by an R and an F.
The RAF technical staff thought it was a white elephant and wanted it closed down
They weren't all destroyed. Two TSR2 s remain; one at IWM Duxford, and the other at RAF Cosford. Neither of them ever flew, of course. As for the RAF sorting out the F-111's problems - that's interesting, since the RAF never operated the F-111.
@@paulkirkland3263 You are right. I missed an A out.
@@daigriffiths399 The RAAF didn't sort the F-111 out either. Read the history of the aircraft and its development by the USAF, General Dynamics and Grumman.
@@paulkirkland3263 I think your information is more up to date than mine. Thank you for the correction - seriously.
And the Australians LOVED the F 111.......
So did us BAe fitters at Filton!
To put the technology of this project in context. The A-12 was flying in 1962. The Sr71 started flying at the time of cancelation.
A report held by Royal Air Force Historical Society titled -TSR2 with HINDSIGHT. Contained in which a section titled A System Study of TSR2 by Wing Commander G B Wilson BSc CEng MIEE. This highlights that some considerably time before any change of government that no confidence in the ability of the management of BAC to give ‘us the aeroplane we want, when we want it and at the right price.’
In addition, reports from The Technical staff at RAF Henlow that ran on as the final in depth study, named No 6 Advanced Weapons Course concluded that there were considerable doubts about many technical aspects of the TSR2 system, that would have cost considerable amounts of money, time which of course would shorten the service life. Further pointing out that ACAS(OR) did not believe that BAC was capable of providing the aircraft. From the document the following comment, ‘Perhaps the project should have been cancelled then but who could recommend such a thing after that brief (from vested interests) to the (then conservative) Prime Minister?’
One can assume that a change of government was needed to draw a curtain on the project. Come the General Election of late 1964 this opportunity was fulfilled.
‘Perhaps the project should have been cancelled then but who could recommend such a thing after that brief (from vested interests) to the (then conservative) Prime Minister?’ That would be Douglas-Home or Macmillan?
Let’s get real and honest! The UK government bottled it when General Dynamics insisted that the US government get involved to pressure the Aussie’s into buying the F111 after they showed strong interest in the TSR2. The UK could have done a deal with the Australians and at least secure the programme for at least the short term, however just as they killed off any chance the UK had of staking a claim in the development of a viable space program, they more or less killed both ventures with in a few years.
Lord Mountbatten played his part by telling the Australians at a critical point that TSR2 was going nowhere. This was an infuriating manifestation of Navy vs. RAF rivalry.
When in doubt .. blame the Americans.. the tsr2 was too expensive. Uk government interference delayed its development. It is a story heard all the time in the aircraft industry.
Rubbish. Don’t blame us yanks for your stupid politicians
Think on this, it was found that the Blackburn Buccaneer flew lower and faster than the F111, so check out the proposed supersonic Bucc2 that Blackburn wanted a porotype order for that sadly never came
The top brass at the RAF were to blame. Their three, (yes three), nuclear bombers had just been made redundant by Soviet SAMs and they were about to lose their nuclear role to the Navy's submarines. They had no need for a nuclear bomber.
Actually it was the MOD
What the British learned from the TSR-2 was to not go it alone. So in the future it built it's designs with partners. From the Tornado, to now the Tempest, this spread the cost ensured sales, and meant that America could not stop the project, as it had done many times before.
Blaming the U.S. for stopping British aerospace projects is just a refusal to take responsibly for Britain's failure to produce. The U.S. didn't kill the British auto industry either, Britain killed it.
The US -UK aviation industries were not a 'one way street'. Canberra , Harrier and Hawk were all acquired by the US. Also engines, of many advanced US types were licence manufactured by the US, from the Halfords, De Havillands, Armstrong Siddeley, Rolls Royce types. Ghosts, Derwents, Avons, Sapphires, Speys, Adours, Conways, Darts, Tynes, have all been used or are in current types and the B52 fleet is to reengined with the RR 700.
Tempest is looking likely to go the way of TSR2 with the new Government.
@@wrath53339 Not quite - 'Tempest' is only at definition stage, not even at mock up.
@@wrath53339 The tempest though has two partners, Japan, and Italy.
It failed because of money....or lack of...its that simple
And politics - Duncan Sandys the defence minister of the time considered that all future wars would be fought with missiles, not manned aircraft, and drones had not been heard of back then.
@@chrissmith2114 true
The TSR-2 was a bottomless money pit that would have been obsolescent by the time it made it into service.
No, because of a lack of political will.
Wrong, it was a casualty of the Candy's white paper on defence policy.
It was a classic case of a gigantic waste of time aking to all those Brabazon Committee projects like the Bristol Brabazon airliner and the Saunders-Roe Princess flying boat. Blackburn Aircraft, who had just started to build the Buccaneer for the Royal Navy by 1960, actually proposed an enlarged version of the Buccaneer that could have fufilled most of the TSR.2's combat roles for possibly a fraction of the price of a new TSR.2. Had the RAF taken up that offer, by 1970 the RAF could have fielded 150 planes of the enlarged Buccaneer for use as interdiction platforms against Warsaw Pact forces.
why would the RAF even consider basing a strategic bomber at an Airfield without a Runway?!
Why were the TSR2 Jigs destroyed with indecent haste ? - The Crystal Rota Spey engine allowed 20% more power - it was not inferior - indeed it powered Thrust SST
To kill off pointless pressure to keep wasting money on it
Part of the F111 deal
The best aircraft we never had
Not really
I already was watching one of if not my favorite air crafts that never reached service, and then you had to make the video better wit one of the baddest air crafts ever built...
Very similar to the Avro Arrow. What if....
My Dad worked on the TSR2 with a small company when it was cancelled the company folded and my dad and others lost their jobs. He never found work again.
The most obvious problem would be its radar observability... it's about as stealthy as a flying barn.
So how did the TSR2 fail exactly then?
Did you listen to this video? It’s 17 minutes explaining it was a mismanaged pos.
For every aircraft put into full production, there’s 10 that just don’t make it. Try not to get too romantic about it.
The fact the british govt didn't buy the F-111,even if it was at a discount price proves the U.K mod /govt just didn't have the money to throw around.....the UK was still cash strapped when it came to military procurments at the time and had to balance the books very carefuly
You're correct about it being a matter of money. But the fact is, after the end of WWII, and the inevitable loss of its Empire, the UK was no longer a rich nation with a robust economy. It's like if Load Soandso lost all of his estates, and only had the manor house to his name, like it or not, he would need to keep a close eye on his spending.
Bull! They always have Billions of Pounds to squander!
Nothing to do that when a RAF pilot tried out a Bucc it was found that it would fly faster at a lower level than the F11 at a tenth of the price. The big what if is the Supersonic Bucc 2
TSR2 couldn't do anything that Concorde couldn't have done better given a military variant.
Money and politics.We very nearly went into WW2 without the Spitfire.
Thanks. Great info.
There were a lot of US shenanigan's - bribes and corruption - The Canadian Arrow, The TSR 2 - Europe saddled with the widow maker Starfighter
Why was 🇬🇧 able to produce fairly good aircrafts when the various companies were independent, but fsiled miserably when combining together???
Because when combined it was so much easier for the politicians and desk jockeys in Whitehall to control them....?
Very interesting anyalysis.....
It's an unpopular view, but I've come to realise that cancellation was the right thing to do. The plane wasn't developed enough and wouldn't have been until the mid-70s, by which time it would have been obsolete. People lament it because it was such a great-looking plane, and we'd all have loved to see it in service. But it would have been a waste of time and money just to have the most aesthetically pleasing but not actually all that capable airframe. Lessons were well learned and we got some great planes in its stead - Jaguar, Tornado.
Harold Wilson disaster?
No he kept my generation out of Vietnam
Maybe simply trying to reach too far? No doubt it was vastly over budget and would have effected the money available to all other projects.
How not to develop an aircraft. Such a shame
The British f4 phantom wasn't less capable then the American version, it was literally the opposite in fact as it was faster & had a higher payload etc!!! I literally see a interview with an American pilot that did a pilot exchange as part of a nato exchange program at the time & he said the British version was awesome, there literally a video about it on another channel on TH-cam I follow saying the same thing as the pilot interview
Ordered from U.S.A. to cancel this aircraft ....remember ..any country , shall have nothing better than the u.s.a. has/ can make .. otherwise it is a threat to them , and will be eliminated, true to date as well 2024 ....
I've seen a lot of misinformation on TH-cam, but saying the TSRs was canceled on the orders of the U.S. indicates a deep delusion.
In 50 years time when the "secrets" are no more we will find a "blackmail" from our "friends" the USofA with your TSR2 vs our Polaris.
It didn't fail, the yanks didn't want it to exist, because it would challenge their fighter sales.
It never failed it was cancelled
Not quite as simple as that
the F111 was a piece of Junk. the Australisns have regretted buying it ever since the 1960s
Two words: Labour Government. Same thing could happen with the Tempest program although that won't get cancelled but our involvement will and we'll end up having to buy it instead of selling.
Look up Avro Arrow, SR 53 and see who benighted from these cancellations
@JohnSmith-bx8zb We all know who.
However however however however however
Labour cancel it which they are go to do with the new plane just being developed.
Constant government intervention and the new labour government dealt the final blow .
It didn't fail. The government did!
Look deeper and factor in why was the Avro Arrow and SR-53 disappeared
The beautiful aircraft never failed, it was amazing. Politics failed as per usual.
What….a short sighted British government that couldn’t see its potential….When has that ever happened. Well, that would be a comprehensive list.
Americans = That’s great what can we do with it. Germans = It’s good how can we improve it. British = it’s expensive let’s cancel it.
The British really need to invest in their research and development projects and the brains behind them. Alan Turin,Tommy Flowers,Frank Whittle
Looks like you didn’t watch the video to the end
No I didn’t to be fair. I’m too busy working on engineering projects.
British aviations most beloved myth - "if only it hadnt been cancelled / Wilson a commie etc." Hard to know where to start with the problems with the TSR2 - faulty avionics, zero manouverability with highly predictable flight path due to stub wings, massively overbudget, very late with no signs of being sorted. Purchase of Polaris.
Britain just couldn't afford it.
Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.
What exactly was it for? So much money was spent profligately as if we needed to save the world with weaponry and now transferred to equally futile pointless eco plans. All to no avail for an impoverished little island that really needs desperately to think about practical needs for its own survival on the elementary basics of life. The bluff on all this armament has been called as anyone can enter the country as long as they are not armed as nobody actually dares use any of the stuff.
indeed. cancelled because of the worst management style. gov imposed combining the worst of both words, serious flaws in metallic structures, huge cost overruns and years late. rubbish computers and engines that may explode any time. oooh and sabotage from within from the likes of the lord mountbatten. inter-service rivalry. ooh and also super late. yeh its a wonder.
it is more a shame the supersonic harrier was cancelled.
TSR suffered from being overly ambitious, some of the aims not arrive till the panavia tornado. That was going to cost money to deliver which Britain didn’t have. Britain would have pulled out of Concorde as well if not for the fact that with the contract then was cheaper to continue then pull out of the project.
The F-111 suffered similar cost overruns however USA had the money to push through and UK didn’t
It did not fail. It was axed by the Labour government at the time for an USA F111 package. Which we never got. Get your facts right. You are talking garbled rubbish.
Looks like you are totally unaware of events at the time
The TSR2 would have been an advanced aircraft in the 1950's, but it was a decade behind when it first flew in 1964. The RAF could already see that it was going to be outclassed by the F-111. The XB-70 flew that same year and was canceled. The B-58 was in service but already showing signs of obsolescence in the face of the growing threat from SAMs. It seems the reason the government poured money into the TSR2 for as long as it did was to try to support the British Aerospace industry, but the TSR2 was not the right plane to save it.
"The RAF could already see that it was going to be outclassed by the F-111..." - ROFL!
@@jackaubrey8614 The F-111 eventually turned out to be a "superior" aircraft..... That is, later "marks" were very impressive; it also weighed in at 50,000 pounds empty, too big for any aircraft carrier, and came with an astronomical price tag in addition to the endless development time..... And the F-14 was superior to the Harrier; which means absolutely nothing. The Harrier ( Full size P.1154 version ) would have been capable of doing most ( or all ) of the same tasks as the Grumman Tomcat, after launching from the Albion and Hermes type ships, and it would have been British-built, and co-produced in America. The "little" Harrier, by the way, only got into service through the support of the US Marine Corps.
@@jackaubrey8614 I can see that's a painful truth which TSR2 fanboys will never accept.
@@BruceConklin-js5rg Is that why the RAF found that the Buccaneer was faster at low level and cost a tenth of the cost of the F111. the best what if Aircraft would have been the Buccaneer 2, the supersonic one already to go just wanting a prototype order.
My father was involved with the tsr project and Concord.
I won’t go into detail but you’ll notice today we have almost no manufacturing in the uk. This was the start of it. Only the Irish disliked Mountbatten more than my father.
Bloody Americans.
Don’t blame us yanks for the stupid politicians you chuckleheads keep electing
It failed because of political cold feet. Afraid of being a leading authority in the world of aviation. Thanks Harold!
Not quite