Thank you Keysight for enabling the educational values these videos provide for the community. As always all my reviews are released to the public without any intervention from the vendors and for free to everyone around the world.
@@ckm-mkc Here is a list: www.keysight.com/en/pcx-3062392/infiniium-mxr-series-real-time-oscilloscopes?nid=-31731.0.00&cc=US&lc=eng Keep in mind you can upgrade from any model to any higher model at a later date through license key.
Do you have any comments regarding the criticisms (more like suggestions) in the video, such as the mask in RTSA mode not acting as triggers, but as filters?
@@TheXGamer969 I'll talk to the product manager in the morning and edit this comment with their reply, I know there was some feedback from them about it.
This is a great tool. You may not like it, but this is what peak engineering looks like. More seriously, thank you for showing us such nice piece of kit.
Its not a stretch to compare this to the Tektronix MSO 6-Series B. I have seen your review of the MSO 6 series A(4-channel).Besides total analog bandwidth and channel count, Comparing the Scopes RTSA( digital down conversion), waveform update rate, triggering, Tek SignalVu vs Keysight VSA(Pathwave?) , features, GUI, etc. . would be helpful. Hope to hear your thoughts in Part 2 of the review
Beautiful engineering. I cannot fathom the level of coordination, planning, and technical know-how needed to design something so complex. Those iOS 1.0 bubble GUI buttons on the other hand🤨
Don't worry. When it gets going, it will flow... If you are not in the mood to write right now, there is no point. Well, there will have to be point of no return... Just make sure you don't get past that :)
All this to display some squiggly lines on a screen. I love it. 😄 The last time I saw this many decoupling capacitors under a stupidly big BGA was on a 400G coherent optical transponder.
As a researcher working in cutting edge wide band gap power electronics, it is finally good to see Keysight with a response to Tek and lecroy modern high channel count scopes, Now for the question @Keysight Labs Is there by chance any high bandwidth optically isolated, high CMRR (>120 dB ) like tek isoVu for high side gate driver applications?
This is wonderful, it's like art. I will never be able to understand the things necessary to need this kind of oscilloscope, but I can't afford a normal Keysight anyway lol.
@@leozendo3500 Well, my college years are a long way in the past; also I work as a programmer in a small business: my institution couldn't care less about keysight. Or perhaps I'm not smart enough.
Are the channel colors at the BNC's more clearly differentiated than is coming up on the video? My first impression was to note that channels 1 & 2 look very similar in colour and contrast. The button LED's look good though so I am wondering if it's just a lighting or video thing? Personally I prefer yellows and greens to be apart from each other. I'm also a little bemused there's an LED beside the also lit up channel buttons... two LEDS's in the same piece of panel real-estate doing the same thing? I would also have dearly loved a bit of Dave Jones style "feel-o-vision" on the hoz and vert button functionality. That being said, Shariar makes a powerful statement in a comment below "Think about the fact that we live in a world where you can watch the detailed operation/teardown of top-tier instruments for free" and yes, this is fantastic! And well done and thanks to Keysight for providing the unit and taking the time to make comments here to us viewers too!
The colors look fairly well distinguished in person. The two LEDs perform two different functions. One LED shows if a channel is enabled and capturing while the other LED shows if a channel is selected (and connected to the vertical knobs). It is a good visual representation. :)
Speaking from personal experience, it's very difficult to fully capture the channel colors with a camera - the screen brightness does funny things to a camera sensor.
16:26 Is the custom processing IC hardwired for the way it processes the data, or is it closer to a custom FPGA with custom IO and peripherals? Because if its programable to some extend, then the capabilities of this scope could be improved over time.
Are you planning to test the isolation difference between the Channels 1-4 and 5-8 in Part 2? Assuming you can switch the acquisition board to have it occupy the slot for Channels 5-8 and the instrument works with the first slot unoccupied.
So the thick board is like 30+ layers? I recall sharir said that the board of the UXA was more than 30 layers and I was amazed. Still amazed here, it has to be a pain to route a board such that!
were you just... watching your 2.4GHz wifi router's beacon interval... with an oscilloscope's built in fft????? :O "What a time to be alive" - Two Minute Papers
Sir, about a video on antenna design like we we see in car rear windows and GPS? I'll bet you'll get a bunch of interest! - your presentations are always excellent!
One BIG Question...where do I qualify for the giveaway???😂 What an instrument! Just hope Keysight will implement the functions you've mentioned. But astonishing how precise and low noise this is.
How many PCB layers on that ADC module? ;-D And that fat BGA in the middle, something in the 2400ball count, if I counted correctly, good luck hand soldering that one ;-) What's about that silly 40MHz minimum span thing, btw? That makes it totally unusable to detect nearby sidebands/phase noise and all the stuff you'd usually see on a normal SA.
All these high end oscilloscopes are nice to learn from, but did The Signal Path do any rewiews of any really low cost devices like the DSO5102P from Hantek for example? Would be interested on how they do and are worth considering for hobby use.
Is there a specific reason why the GUI does not completely fill out the display? With all of the data being shown, and assuming an external monitor is not being used, it would seem that expanding the GUI to use the full expanse of the display would be beneficial.
Hi. I'm new to your channel shahriar. interesting video although it is still a prototype version of product(that piece of wire under the main board is fantastic!! making this amazing product still a prototype XD).
Should I watch the video before commenting on the fact that only the first 4 channels are good at fancy triggering? Still a good bit of kit though, have 3 of them in our lab, and I miss the trigger controls on the front panel :(
On a scale of 1-10 how complicated is this scope relatively speaking when it comes to oscilloscopes? I can easily tell it's very complicated but I'm unsure how it compares to others.
hi Shahriar, Are these HMC memory also Keysight custom parts or they are from other IC Manufacturers. Actually I also want to use HMC memories in my project but I can't find any active part numbers.
Most probably they are from Micron. However similar to other Manufacturers (Samsung) Micron now focuses on HBM for Applications with high bandwidth requirements.
17:47 What does he mean by back drilling?, ie, is it drilling out the solder of blind vias, or maybe drilling out plated vias, or maybe drilling just through the back layer.
Back drilling gets rid of "via stubs" (basically if the via is longer/deeper than needed) it causes jitter. You can drill off the excess/stub and it helps improve signal integrity.
@@vaualbus Maybe? The bigger benefit is the actual performance, though. With a sim (depending on what program you're using) you can modify the parameters to match your actual system.
Hey there mister Signal I need a logic analyzer, more like a digital grabber than an analyzer, I need at most 8 Msps rate, but i need at least 32 channels, if not more. I don't need deep memory, either. 1 ms capture is more than enough. Could you suggest something? Do I go DIY route, find someone that has done something similar?
Absolutely Awesome Video as always. I do have a quick question tho. What use does the PCIE Connector serve on the PCB? Is that the connection between the Main PCB and the PC?
Not really. My Lecroy DDA-5005 from 2002 continously draws about 400W. Even after I replaced the Pentium4 by something more powerfull and efficient. Keeps you warm and cosy at cold winter days ;)
Can I afford one? absolutely not. Do I want one? Absolutely yes. Do I really need it... hm, I don't know... I have a a problem for a long time now with a serial bus glitching out once every few hours, I wonder if that could be of any special help here
Debugging in that domain must be a fantastic revenue stream for aspirin manufactures. The poor guys that don’t have this level of gear are just lost in the woods. All the complexity and expense and it’ll be obsolete in 16 months.
If feels like UI design lags behind physical and hardware design a few steps. While it's functional and contrast (I give it that, seen much worse), all these gradients look old, cheap and unnecessary. It also could probably clean things up a bit if non-interactive static layout lines get somewhat reduced contrast. It feels too noisy now, with all the things clashing for the same visual priority.
I notice they have hardware digital trig in this model, as R&S , is it ? At Center signal are very sharp where it trigg and become noisy, or perhaps I am wrong , is R&S trigging in other ways!? watch this @13:00 minute , he explain it : th-cam.com/video/yfXSVF-s3zw/w-d-xo.html
I use to work for Keysight. I did alot of signal integrity work before that them as well. With all these new analyzers/oscopes. It's just really sad that they lock alot of the features that's just "math", etc, etc. You pay a fortune for a box that has all it's capabilities locked. Give all these new scopes 10 years and these will be selling for a couple thousand.
@@Thesignalpath Please don't take this as a criticism, the content is perfect as always. It sounds that your mic has a high frequency roll off pretty early at maybe 5kHz so it sounds a little boomy and unclear. Most modern cellphones can record better details. Mabe compare with a video from some leading channels with headphones on? Or maybe it's just me, or EQ...
@@leozendo3500 I disagree, it sounds fine on my end. The only time I've thought that the audio quality was poor on this channel was either the WAY early days, or when he's voicing over a screen capture of a schematic on his computer. I haven't noticed the latter in more recent videos, either.
@@Ziferten that's interesting. I am only comparing it with videos from linus tech tips which is kind of a standard for youtube production. Their audio definitely has more higher end. Large news channels on youtube like cnn or abc are also very clear on sounds like ci, ke, t, fu, when compared to this channel. In not saying that's more accurate, but it's more like a standard. After all, as long as you've got low noise floor and linearity(just like the scopes frontend), you don't loose information and can eq things back.
From my side too , sounds very good , shahriar lab equipment is better then what we have in Ericsson , in Sweden, I worked at Ericsson and most their equipment very old ,
We're happy to answer questions anyone has! We did not review this video prior to it being released but did provide Shahriar the scope.
Thank you Keysight for enabling the educational values these videos provide for the community. As always all my reviews are released to the public without any intervention from the vendors and for free to everyone around the world.
I'm definitely not in the market for one of these but I would like to know the approx. price of one of these, just out of morbid curiosity....
@@ckm-mkc Here is a list: www.keysight.com/en/pcx-3062392/infiniium-mxr-series-real-time-oscilloscopes?nid=-31731.0.00&cc=US&lc=eng
Keep in mind you can upgrade from any model to any higher model at a later date through license key.
Do you have any comments regarding the criticisms (more like suggestions) in the video, such as the mask in RTSA mode not acting as triggers, but as filters?
@@TheXGamer969 I'll talk to the product manager in the morning and edit this comment with their reply, I know there was some feedback from them about it.
This is a great tool.
You may not like it, but this is what peak engineering looks like.
More seriously, thank you for showing us such nice piece of kit.
Thank You!!! I have been waiting for a review on this since it was released. Best EE channel in the universe.
So excited for this. I've been waiting for it ever since the MXR was released.
Its not a stretch to compare this to the Tektronix MSO 6-Series B. I have seen your review of the MSO 6 series A(4-channel).Besides total analog bandwidth and channel count, Comparing the Scopes RTSA( digital down conversion), waveform update rate, triggering, Tek SignalVu vs Keysight VSA(Pathwave?) , features, GUI, etc. . would be helpful. Hope to hear your thoughts in Part 2 of the review
I muted my ES101 class and just finished watching this. So much better.
Beautiful engineering. I cannot fathom the level of coordination, planning, and technical know-how needed to design something so complex.
Those iOS 1.0 bubble GUI buttons on the other hand🤨
that bubble is from the S Series days, they seem to have used the same QT framework for the MXR. lower risk using existing software
@@yaghiyahbrenner8902 Yes, of course it is rolled over from years past. Just looks a little funny since that style came and went pretty quickly.
Thank you sharing this with us!
I greatly appreciate this Shahriar.
I'll never get this thesis written at this rate!
I mean if you're going to procrastinate this is a pretty good way to do it...
Don't worry. When it gets going, it will flow... If you are not in the mood to write right now, there is no point. Well, there will have to be point of no return... Just make sure you don't get past that :)
same situation here..... ahah
Just think... 40 years from now, these will be on ebay with broken power supplies for a couple grand.
and a dead or missing hard drive :)
Or with toasted frontend or ADC module. At least they've socketed the ADC it this time, so you can swap.
Yep already picked up a Keysight Infiniium MSO9000 on ebay
@@berni8k me too, that thing is amaizing. have it now for about 4 years (maybe 6 :) time fly when you have fun)
I love these videos despite only understanding a couple of percent...cheers.
All this to display some squiggly lines on a screen. I love it. 😄
The last time I saw this many decoupling capacitors under a stupidly big BGA was on a 400G coherent optical transponder.
As a researcher working in cutting edge wide band gap power electronics, it is finally good to see Keysight with a response to Tek and lecroy modern high channel count scopes, Now for the question
@Keysight Labs Is there by chance any high bandwidth optically isolated, high CMRR (>120 dB ) like tek isoVu for high side gate driver applications?
This is wonderful, it's like art. I will never be able to understand the things necessary to need this kind of oscilloscope, but I can't afford a normal Keysight anyway lol.
No one can afford a normal Keysight. You can only be smart enough to get your college or institution to buy you one.
@@leozendo3500 Well, my college years are a long way in the past; also I work as a programmer in a small business: my institution couldn't care less about keysight. Or perhaps I'm not smart enough.
This being TSP, the scope doesn't even get powered up until 20mins into the video ;-)
Dont't turn on, take it apart )))
Are the channel colors at the BNC's more clearly differentiated than is coming up on the video? My first impression was to note that channels 1 & 2 look very similar in colour and contrast. The button LED's look good though so I am wondering if it's just a lighting or video thing? Personally I prefer yellows and greens to be apart from each other. I'm also a little bemused there's an LED beside the also lit up channel buttons... two LEDS's in the same piece of panel real-estate doing the same thing? I would also have dearly loved a bit of Dave Jones style "feel-o-vision" on the hoz and vert button functionality. That being said, Shariar makes a powerful statement in a comment below "Think about the fact that we live in a world where you can watch the detailed operation/teardown of top-tier instruments for free" and yes, this is fantastic! And well done and thanks to Keysight for providing the unit and taking the time to make comments here to us viewers too!
The colors look fairly well distinguished in person. The two LEDs perform two different functions. One LED shows if a channel is enabled and capturing while the other LED shows if a channel is selected (and connected to the vertical knobs). It is a good visual representation. :)
@@Thesignalpath Thanks for the clarification!
Speaking from personal experience, it's very difficult to fully capture the channel colors with a camera - the screen brightness does funny things to a camera sensor.
@@KeysightLabs You need a decent scope to figure it out, check out Keysight they have some sound kit !
NICE! I imagine someone did a fair bit of homework to hop the signal path (put absolutely intended) through a board-to-board interconnect! :o
16:26 Is the custom processing IC hardwired for the way it processes the data, or is it closer to a custom FPGA with custom IO and peripherals? Because if its programable to some extend, then the capabilities of this scope could be improved over time.
That is a good question.
Are you planning to test the isolation difference between the Channels 1-4 and 5-8 in Part 2? Assuming you can switch the acquisition board to have it occupy the slot for Channels 5-8 and the instrument works with the first slot unoccupied.
Yes, I will measure it.
13:19 I heard on Keysight's video today that this device has 100 power rails in it.
How about a field trip to the factory- to see how these are made?
Hopefully after COVID. :)
@@Thesignalpath yeah we all would love that !
Excellent, thank you so much.
My god, it's full of caps!
So the thick board is like 30+ layers? I recall sharir said that the board of the UXA was more than 30 layers and I was amazed. Still amazed here, it has to be a pain to route a board such that!
were you just... watching your 2.4GHz wifi router's beacon interval... with an oscilloscope's built in fft????? :O
"What a time to be alive" - Two Minute Papers
(Please ignore this comment)
02:03 - Display Reflection
22:10 - Tiny Signal
01:39 - Device Depth
19:38 - Fan Noise
02:17 - LED Backlights
Is the frequency counters in scope has the same accuracy in low frequency too ? What about if you change to 1MHz range?!
Sure it does. The input frequency does not change the accuracy of the counter.
Good to know, now I'll buy it for my Audio experiments. ;)
Sir, about a video on antenna design like we we see in car rear windows and GPS? I'll bet you'll get a bunch of interest! - your presentations are always excellent!
How about a review & teardown of the M8199A 256 GSa/s AWG? That'd be so cool!
Yes, that would be cool!
One BIG Question...where do I qualify for the giveaway???😂
What an instrument!
Just hope Keysight will implement the functions you've mentioned.
But astonishing how precise and low noise this is.
How many PCB layers on that ADC module? ;-D
And that fat BGA in the middle, something in the 2400ball count, if I counted correctly, good luck hand soldering that one ;-)
What's about that silly 40MHz minimum span thing, btw? That makes it totally unusable to detect nearby sidebands/phase noise and all the stuff you'd usually see on a normal SA.
What a GREAT video !!! can't wait for Chinese clone for $50.00 !
lol, that's gonna take a while xD
All these high end oscilloscopes are nice to learn from, but did The Signal Path do any rewiews of any really low cost devices like the DSO5102P from Hantek for example?
Would be interested on how they do and are worth considering for hobby use.
I have no idea what most of that meant but it looks very impressive.
Is there a specific reason why the GUI does not completely fill out the display? With all of the data being shown, and assuming an external monitor is not being used, it would seem that expanding the GUI to use the full expanse of the display would be beneficial.
Hi. I'm new to your channel shahriar. interesting video although it is still a prototype version of product(that piece of wire under the main board is fantastic!! making this amazing product still a prototype XD).
Only the PCB I show is a prototype. The product itself is not.
Shahinar if can i ask, The Lab where you made videos is your privat or make a vid at work? Impressive...
This is my private lab.
great job
damn, this video showed me that i have a lot more to learn even though i have had masters
Need PhD
I am thinking Tektronix MSO6B is a better bang for the buck option ...how do you guys compare these two similarly powerful scopes?
Should I watch the video before commenting on the fact that only the first 4 channels are good at fancy triggering? Still a good bit of kit though, have 3 of them in our lab, and I miss the trigger controls on the front panel :(
6:40 ... Wasi the only guy to yell "ZOOM-IN Shariar !!!"
Shahriar , Wonder if it's A/D is the same as S series??
It is an updated improved version, similar to what is inside the UXR.
On a scale of 1-10 how complicated is this scope relatively speaking when it comes to oscilloscopes? I can easily tell it's very complicated but I'm unsure how it compares to others.
9
How do you compare the Tek 5(or6) series (12bit) with this mxr (10 bit low noise) scope. Which one you think better.
Can you do a comparison video?
I first need a MSO-6B on my bench to do the comparison. :)
How many layers in this acquisition board?
hi Shahriar,
Are these HMC memory also Keysight custom parts or they are from other IC Manufacturers. Actually I also want to use HMC memories in my project but I can't find any active part numbers.
Most probably they are from Micron. However similar to other Manufacturers (Samsung) Micron now focuses on HBM for Applications with high bandwidth requirements.
Was there a Part 2?
17:47 What does he mean by back drilling?, ie, is it drilling out the solder of blind vias, or maybe drilling out plated vias, or maybe drilling just through the back layer.
Back drilling gets rid of "via stubs" (basically if the via is longer/deeper than needed) it causes jitter. You can drill off the excess/stub and it helps improve signal integrity.
@@KeysightLabs doing that also allow easier EM simulation?
@@vaualbus Maybe? The bigger benefit is the actual performance, though. With a sim (depending on what program you're using) you can modify the parameters to match your actual system.
@@KeysightLabs yeah I know about the performances but I recalled reading that. Anyway thanks for the answer 😊 and congrats for this product!
I like the new hat.
Nice hat, new hair cut maybe , with all these lockdown!
Wow, gangsta outfit!
:o)
Hey there mister Signal
I need a logic analyzer, more like a digital grabber than an analyzer, I need at most 8 Msps rate, but i need at least 32 channels, if not more.
I don't need deep memory, either. 1 ms capture is more than enough.
Could you suggest something? Do I go DIY route, find someone that has done something similar?
So, you tried to cut your own hair and it all went wrong. Don't be embarrassed. Most of your viewers did the same. :-)
Sorry LOL ;-)
Ha!
Absolutely Awesome Video as always. I do have a quick question tho. What use does the PCIE Connector serve on the PCB? Is that the connection between the Main PCB and the PC?
Yes, that is exactly what it is used for.
Can you really get 10b at maximum sampling rate ? Is this even possible ?
ENOB at low frequencies is about 9-bits and goes down to around 7.5-bits around maximum frequency inputs.
When people play with test equipment probably worth more than my car 😢 😆
I want one !
These devices are brilliant however they're out of reach for my budget. One day....
Step 1: Get a job at Keysight
Step 2: Borrow one
The devices we could build with this... I'd design and build a low cost 5ghz wifi asic with it.
How much
@@HoffmansHoopties Yup. there are hundreds of job openings at Keysight.com.
...that's how I got mine. :^D
So, what scope do we need to probe PCI-E 4.0?
im guessing at least 16GHz BW since pcie 4.0 is 16GT/s
better than white lambo
650W power drain!
You have to go all the way back to the 1960s to see comparable power drain in a scope e.g. Tektronix 585A
That's max probably doesn't use half
Not really. My Lecroy DDA-5005 from 2002 continously draws about 400W. Even after I replaced the Pentium4 by something more powerfull and efficient. Keeps you warm and cosy at cold winter days ;)
Can you a video on the Fault Hunting feature...
It’s in there already.
@@Thesignalpath missed that part. thanks for the reply.
th-cam.com/video/ZWrz3tiwPBw/w-d-xo.html
Can I afford one? absolutely not. Do I want one? Absolutely yes. Do I really need it... hm, I don't know... I have a a problem for a long time now with a serial bus glitching out once every few hours, I wonder if that could be of any special help here
Debugging in that domain must be a fantastic revenue stream for aspirin manufactures. The poor guys that don’t have this level of gear are just lost in the woods. All the complexity and expense and it’ll be obsolete in 16 months.
Does it still count as a Halloween costume if he actually is the Sherlock Holmes of circuits?
Repair is missing.
Can you please press break it then add a repair section to the video
Im sure you can game on this
Unfortunately I don't have more than 100.000 dollars burning in my pocket.
If feels like UI design lags behind physical and hardware design a few steps.
While it's functional and contrast (I give it that, seen much worse), all these gradients look old, cheap and unnecessary.
It also could probably clean things up a bit if non-interactive static layout lines get somewhat reduced contrast. It feels too noisy now, with all the things clashing for the same visual priority.
what esd protection is used in the lab? To be honest would be scared to touch any of these precious devices. :)
We actually did a video on how to protect your gear from ESD damage from people and DUTs: th-cam.com/video/dDvue5whx0s/w-d-xo.html
Envious of your rich, luxurious equipment.
I notice they have hardware digital trig in this model, as R&S , is it ? At Center signal are very sharp where it trigg and become noisy, or perhaps I am wrong , is R&S trigging in other ways!?
watch this @13:00 minute , he explain it :
th-cam.com/video/yfXSVF-s3zw/w-d-xo.html
Of course the instrument has dedicated ASIC for trigger. The behavior you see is normal and is what should be observed.
I use to work for Keysight. I did alot of signal integrity work before that them as well. With all these new analyzers/oscopes. It's just really sad that they lock alot of the features that's just "math", etc, etc. You pay a fortune for a box that has all it's capabilities locked.
Give all these new scopes 10 years and these will be selling for a couple thousand.
Who's that person, where's the hair gone ?
Its growing back! :)
Dark mode model
price - 1Milion US DOllars!
Botch on the Signal path logo ...lol
Clearly the receding hairline is beginning to bother you.. :)
Haha... Its growing back. :)
You have million dollar ADCs you deserve a 100 dollar microphone for making these videos.
What’s wrong with my microphone?
@@Thesignalpath Please don't take this as a criticism, the content is perfect as always. It sounds that your mic has a high frequency roll off pretty early at maybe 5kHz so it sounds a little boomy and unclear. Most modern cellphones can record better details. Mabe compare with a video from some leading channels with headphones on?
Or maybe it's just me, or EQ...
@@leozendo3500 I disagree, it sounds fine on my end. The only time I've thought that the audio quality was poor on this channel was either the WAY early days, or when he's voicing over a screen capture of a schematic on his computer. I haven't noticed the latter in more recent videos, either.
@@Ziferten that's interesting. I am only comparing it with videos from linus tech tips which is kind of a standard for youtube production. Their audio definitely has more higher end. Large news channels on youtube like cnn or abc are also very clear on sounds like ci, ke, t, fu, when compared to this channel. In not saying that's more accurate, but it's more like a standard. After all, as long as you've got low noise floor and linearity(just like the scopes frontend), you don't loose information and can eq things back.
From my side too , sounds very good , shahriar lab equipment is better then what we have in Ericsson , in Sweden, I worked at Ericsson and most their equipment very old ,
Another rich man's toy
Wrong. Its a high bandwidth high frequency test instrument. Expensive sure, Any lab doing work in these frequencies will have the budget for it.
@@TKomoski Many professional electrical engineers, who may need something like this for their work, watch this channel...
Did you see the UXR review!? 😂 This is definitely attainable for must folks working with these bandwidth/analysis requirements.
Hey, it doesn't even cost a Get Quote. By rich people standards that's basically walmart prices.
@@KeysightLabs well maybe not for personal use 😞, but the price is very reasonable. Now to convince a grant committee of that fact...